blue38k (NA)
: Can we swap Approach Velocity with Zombie Ward or Ghost Poro?
Gtfo. Approach Velocity + Glacial Augment like peanut butter and jelly. Leave em together.
: Jungle needs to be changed honestly. It is the only role that a team can't carry if it plays badly. Your ADC, Top, Mid Supp can feed and the game is still winnable but your jungler feeds/plays badly/falls behind? GG he is just useless after that . This is why games feel like a coin flip.
> [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IdErbqB6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-11-29T20:58:43.510+0000) > > Jungle needs to be changed honestly. It is the only role that a team can't carry if it plays badly. > > Your ADC, Top, Mid Supp can feed and the game is still winnable but your jungler feeds/plays badly/falls behind? GG he is just useless after that . This is why games feel like a coin flip. Signed in to say: 100% wrong. I have thousands of games last two seasons, thousands. If you are a losing jg or fall behind in jg, teammates just don't respond to your pings or messages, at all. You might as well mute yourself. This is the primary reason it's hard to catch up in jg. I have effed up mightily in early game, and all it takes is often a single 10s roam from the mid laner to bring me right back into game.
ßlameMyADC (EUNE)
: [MUST SEE] MOST ILLOGICAL THING IN THE HISTORY OF THINGS MAYBE EVER
> [{quoted}](name=ßlameMyADC,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Q7VMbKNk,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-26T17:52:48.993+0000) > > WHY DOES THE **CREATOR OF STARS** > {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} > NOT HAVE A > > **_DARK STAR_ SKIN** > > BUT THIS BOOTLEG PINOCCHIO {{champion:61}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:61}} > AND THIS WEIRD 3D MODEL OF MY SOUL-SUCKING EX-WIFE {{champion:412}} {{champion:412}} {{champion:412}} > HAVE ONE. > > **IS THIS A BUG?** > > P:S: HOW DO I TURN OFF CAPSLOCK? You think that's odd? Warwick didn't get a Blood Moon skin... They literally released during a rare Super Blood Wolf Moon Eclipse in real life, no WW skin...
: I mean...let's try and put this into perspective here, so there's at least a common understanding. I main support, not jungle, but I understand the case just as well. Junglers, I will agree, tend to have some attitudes...but a lot of that is projection, too. Do you have any idea how often people just go "fuck my jungler, no ganks, report x9" when they die in top lane, tp back in, and die immediately again, without *either* jungler ever visiting top? Junglers take *a fuckton* of heat...from the community, as well as from Riot repeatedly gutting their ability to play the game off-script. Let me explain: In earlier seasons, jungles actually *were* a huge, make or break deal. Their strategic impact on the board, their setups, their counters and their invades...there were a lot more to them than simply "gank lane, win game". But...with the ability to make more decisions, comes both the ability to make *super good ones* that basically frustrated the hell out of the enemy team...or *super bad ones* that frustrated everyone on the team. Add to this the projection effect - or another way of putting it, the thought that "I can't be bad, and their jungler can't be better than me, so *ours must royally suck* - and it effectively snowballs and deteriorates into "better jungle wins" becoming everyone's favorite overused meme. Riot, of course, cannot balance individual strategies. Some people could deliver such a crippling blow from the jungle role that it almost did feel like they were solo carrying games at points, when in reality, they were mostly just turning the enemy morale into a messy dumpster fire...pretty damn easy, honestly, and especially more where you may not think. See...I'm actually not trying to pick on anyone here, but if you go into a lot of older youtube videos that talk about the generalities of what to expect out of each elo, ther are a lot of people that stress profusely that plat players are *vehemently freaking toxic*, even compared to lower elos. This is because, in the words of the GamingCurios Jeremy, "Plat players are good, and they *know* they're good...and that's what makes them toxic." This elo is the proverbial gateway from mid-elo to high elo, after all. And these guys all got there because they're better than low elo...so obviously they're deserving of more! But...that's from mostly *solo* play. Diamond elo and higher have a better sense of team play. Straight up. Of course...I say this, and people like Nubrac and Nightblue still exist, but...there are exceptions to everything. Anyway...what really happens here, why Riot always starts each preseason by dropping its pants and taking a dump on the jungle role, is that Riot has to find a way to more or less *standardize* jungling...or so they feel. They honestly do it because they're trying to punish failure within the role harder, and make good play more rewarding. But...when I say "good play" this season, I really mean "good ganks". Even if you contest the enemy's jungle now, it doesn't really matter. What matters most now is *strictly* keeping your team ahead in as many lanes as possible. This is bad for a multitude of reasons, and one of those reasons is the very reason everyone hates junglers - they now have to play *super selfishly* or they're not gonna be worth a rat's ass 5 minutes later. Riot's goal was to make every role matter more, but what they've done is effectively given every jungler a screenplay: get level 3 off half your jungle, go gank a side lane, go get a scuttle, go gank the mid lane, then either recall now to reset before your other half-clear and the last side lane, or just run through all of that then recall. If junglers deviate from that script...or if their gank fails to secure a kill...or if the scuttle got contested and they can't gank afterwards cause both junglers got too low...all of those set junglers *stupidly* far behind now. "But that's fine, cause they're PvE!" Wrong. That's not fine. Cause if they're stupidly far behind, they're not going to fucking help you. They *cant*. Season after season after season of people crying and bitching and moaning about the jungle role being a huge deciding factor, led in more recent seasons to Riot *forcing* the junglers to play more and more selfishly, especially if behind, and constricting any level of strategy junglers could come up with to overcome fucking over their lanes with heavy taxes until they're left...with a script. One they *must* follow, or else cost their team the game. Right now...honestly, if I want the enemy team to lose, then *as support* I try to fuck with the enemy jungler. A SUPPORT JUST SHOWING UP AND POKING THEM EARLY GAME can end up putting them half a level or more *further behind* if you forced them away from their camp or scuttle. No skin off my back, I'm support and dont care about my exp bar as much. My adc is getting solo exp. My jungle is most likely taking everything that I help push the enemy jungle away from, and that enemy jungler would literally be better off AFK after the 3rd or 4th time doing this, cause by then, EVEN I can 1v1 the majority of them...as an enchanter support. I'm lv 6, they're still lv 3 or 4. I have items on them. They have no combat power, and I have plenty of time to annoy them. Even if their team comes to help them...my job is done. I screwed up their timeframe, and got out. If Riot decided to gut your mid lane, right now, to the point that I can walk up as Nami, poke you out of your lane, and put you so far behind just from doing this a few times...mind you, *I'm not even killing you*...I think you'd be pretty fucking livid too.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaosReyn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXyEvdAR,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-25T20:09:13.363+0000) > > I mean...let's try and put this into perspective here, so there's at least a common understanding. > > I main support, not jungle, but I understand the case just as well. Junglers, I will agree, tend to have some attitudes...but a lot of that is projection, too. Do you have any idea how often people just go "fuck my jungler, no ganks, report x9" when they die in top lane, tp back in, and die immediately again, without *either* jungler ever visiting top? Junglers take *a fuckton* of heat...from the community, as well as from Riot repeatedly gutting their ability to play the game off-script. > > Let me explain: In earlier seasons, jungles actually *were* a huge, make or break deal. Their strategic impact on the board, their setups, their counters and their invades...there were a lot more to them than simply "gank lane, win game". But...with the ability to make more decisions, comes both the ability to make *super good ones* that basically frustrated the hell out of the enemy team...or *super bad ones* that frustrated everyone on the team. Add to this the projection effect - or another way of putting it, the thought that "I can't be bad, and their jungler can't be better than me, so *ours must royally suck* - and it effectively snowballs and deteriorates into "better jungle wins" becoming everyone's favorite overused meme. > > Riot, of course, cannot balance individual strategies. Some people could deliver such a crippling blow from the jungle role that it almost did feel like they were solo carrying games at points, when in reality, they were mostly just turning the enemy morale into a messy dumpster fire...pretty damn easy, honestly, and especially more where you may not think. See...I'm actually not trying to pick on anyone here, but if you go into a lot of older youtube videos that talk about the generalities of what to expect out of each elo, ther are a lot of people that stress profusely that plat players are *vehemently freaking toxic*, even compared to lower elos. This is because, in the words of the GamingCurios Jeremy, "Plat players are good, and they *know* they're good...and that's what makes them toxic." This elo is the proverbial gateway from mid-elo to high elo, after all. And these guys all got there because they're better than low elo...so obviously they're deserving of more! But...that's from mostly *solo* play. Diamond elo and higher have a better sense of team play. Straight up. Of course...I say this, and people like Nubrac and Nightblue still exist, but...there are exceptions to everything. > > Anyway...what really happens here, why Riot always starts each preseason by dropping its pants and taking a dump on the jungle role, is that Riot has to find a way to more or less *standardize* jungling...or so they feel. They honestly do it because they're trying to punish failure within the role harder, and make good play more rewarding. But...when I say "good play" this season, I really mean "good ganks". Even if you contest the enemy's jungle now, it doesn't really matter. What matters most now is *strictly* keeping your team ahead in as many lanes as possible. This is bad for a multitude of reasons, and one of those reasons is the very reason everyone hates junglers - they now have to play *super selfishly* or they're not gonna be worth a rat's ass 5 minutes later. Riot's goal was to make every role matter more, but what they've done is effectively given every jungler a screenplay: get level 3 off half your jungle, go gank a side lane, go get a scuttle, go gank the mid lane, then either recall now to reset before your other half-clear and the last side lane, or just run through all of that then recall. > > If junglers deviate from that script...or if their gank fails to secure a kill...or if the scuttle got contested and they can't gank afterwards cause both junglers got too low...all of those set junglers *stupidly* far behind now. > > "But that's fine, cause they're PvE!" > Wrong. That's not fine. Cause if they're stupidly far behind, they're not going to fucking help you. They *cant*. > > Season after season after season of people crying and bitching and moaning about the jungle role being a huge deciding factor, led in more recent seasons to Riot *forcing* the junglers to play more and more selfishly, especially if behind, and constricting any level of strategy junglers could come up with to overcome fucking over their lanes with heavy taxes until they're left...with a script. One they *must* follow, or else cost their team the game. > > Right now...honestly, if I want the enemy team to lose, then *as support* I try to fuck with the enemy jungler. A SUPPORT JUST SHOWING UP AND POKING THEM EARLY GAME can end up putting them half a level or more *further behind* if you forced them away from their camp or scuttle. No skin off my back, I'm support and dont care about my exp bar as much. My adc is getting solo exp. My jungle is most likely taking everything that I help push the enemy jungle away from, and that enemy jungler would literally be better off AFK after the 3rd or 4th time doing this, cause by then, EVEN I can 1v1 the majority of them...as an enchanter support. I'm lv 6, they're still lv 3 or 4. I have items on them. They have no combat power, and I have plenty of time to annoy them. Even if their team comes to help them...my job is done. I screwed up their timeframe, and got out. > > If Riot decided to gut your mid lane, right now, to the point that I can walk up as Nami, poke you out of your lane, and put you so far behind just from doing this a few times...mind you, *I'm not even killing you*...I think you'd be pretty fucking livid too. This guy gets it. Been explaining this for two seasons. I start every game ganking enemy jg at their second buff. Most of the time this is successful, and then also Game Over for enemy team from 3:00. Run over to other side of jg, kill them again maybe, watch entire enemy team start screaming jg difference and suiciding across map. Hilarious.
klin537 (NA)
: i think they should nerf warwick
WW is fine as he is. If you really think he is that OP, main him for a while and take over the jg. Nidalee is not very strong in JG right now, you would have more success with someone else anyway. Especially in Bronze btw, WW players can barely walk to the next camp without getting lost, they never gank from behind or cut off escapes.... Shouldn't be a problem.
Nea104 (EUW)
: The "stomp or get stomped" nature of the game is well known. And it's depressing for everyone with a bit of common sense. But there are still people not even noticing the issue. And, sadly, this company keeps embracing it. Probably because it helps to create addiction, I guess following the same principles of the gambling issues: _"yes I've lost so much and I feel terrible, but if I don't play I'll feel even worse... and if I play some more MAYBE I can win something back, right?"_.
> [{quoted}](name=Nea104,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ffdZvAZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-25T22:38:59.560+0000) > > The "stomp or get stomped" nature of the game is well known. And it's depressing for everyone with a bit of common sense. But there are still people not even noticing the issue. > > And, sadly, this company keeps embracing it. > Probably because it helps to create addiction, I guess following the same principles of the gambling issues: _"yes I've lost so much and I feel terrible, but if I don't play I'll feel even worse... and if I play some more MAYBE I can win something back, right?"_. Yeah but they ain't getting the money they could be getting over this. I dropped like $20 over the last two weeks on gaming.. on Warframe. I've easily, *easily* spent more time on League, but league does not listen to player feedback, where Warframe clearly does. Do I enjoy fighting on Summoner's Rift? Hell Yeah! I won't give my money to Riot though until they shape up their act, there's a lot of room for improvement.
: Jungle feels like shit
I was reaaaaaally skeptical of these changes after last season, but I played yesterday and jungle felt pretty good. Being the winning jg finally DID allow me to get a lead on laners most games, and getting all the dragons actually madea difference in a game where Olaf was bearing me on ganks but not cs or dragons. We are still less likely to level as fast as a lane champ, but objective and map control was very rewarding finally, so mostlyI like the changes. I still haven't seen the Elder execute yet though, it sounds horrid.
mc4life (EUNE)
: Jungle is disaster rn.
Yeah I was pretty skeptical after last season, but jg felt pretty rewarding today. Even when enemy jg got ahead a bit, having all the objectives impacted the game(like they should). So far, so good.
: Kindred Rework When?
I tried playing Kindred a few times this season, maybe 30 games? I was awful, SO AWFUL. The marks are like a carnival game stacked against you, then she has no cc, and the q doesn't really let you dodge anything. What anther poster said about the tiny q range is very relevant, many times failed to jump a wall. Still can't tell how to get wolf to attack the targets I want. Rough champ.
: The entire point is that you fight identical strength enemies within 10 games. It doesn't matter what Elo you are, you will fight 'even' enemies in as little as 10 games. If you are diamond, you will fight diamonds and other players as skilled as diamonds, you will not fight silvers just because you are in silver. You might think an unranked player doesn't deserve to be in your game, but it has already identified them as equal strength to you normally.
> [{quoted}](name=Kat Smurf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2tZaTY50,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-19T14:00:32.942+0000) > > The entire point is that you fight identical strength enemies within 10 games. It doesn't matter what Elo you are, you will fight 'even' enemies in as little as 10 games. If you are diamond, you will fight diamonds and other players as skilled as diamonds, you will not fight silvers just because you are in silver. You might think an unranked player doesn't deserve to be in your game, but it has already identified them as equal strength to you normally. We see the obvious examples to this every day in this mmr. Every ten games, I will see at least one or two players new to ranked with a sub 40% winrate(often just one victory in their entire match history. There is no justification for 20% wr Riven mid (1 ranked win, ever) to be in my gold promo.
: In chess, you start at 1000 MMR. It doesn't matter if you are worse than 1000 MMR. That's because 1000MMR is trash, and so is Gold elo. The main issue with this OP is it just assumes the Gold player is better MMR, when they likely are identical MMR. The unranked player might even be higher MMR, and not deserve the gold player as a teammate. Every smurf I've ever made reaches insane elo-heavens because I'm much farther along than a brand new account. This means that I'm in Gold/Plat games as a Bronze/Silver commonly, and my teammates are obviously worse than me, but I'm still the lowest rank. The game does not simply recognize my skill and ignore it, it has me face even competitors as soon as it has an idea of my MMR, and it can do this in as little as 10 games consistently. It literally only takes me 10 games on a brand new account of killstreaks, before the enemy team contains Diamonds and Plats. I literally only get to enjoy a handful of games before every game contains high MMR, I've been pushed into these MMR on new accounts before the profile even unlocked flash and I have to win a 2300 mmr game without flash on a new account. At the end of the day tho, this is another example of blaming your team for your own rank in the 'soloduo' que when it's not their fault at all. If you have the base mechanics of a challenger, you will at least hit diamond, the people that complain about this are always in silver or gold, assuming they deserve grand master or challenger or some delusional mindset. "Challenger" itself is basically a 1000 MMR gap between the top and the bottom, so you can sure as hell carry a noob 500 less MMR than you. Challengers do it all the time, the only difference is the other person is also ranked 'challenger'. You also have to get to 'level 30' before you are allowed to play rank. This has to do with the game determining where to start your rank MMR based on the first games you played with no credit. They already proved themselves, you just disagree. You demand they start at B5, but the system recognizes they already destroyed previous Plat players, and simply doesn't care what you think.
> [{quoted}](name=Kat Smurf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2tZaTY50,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-11-19T13:32:23.441+0000) > > In chess, you start at 1000 MMR. > It doesn't matter if you are worse than 1000 MMR. > That's because 1000MMR is trash, and so is Gold elo. > > The main issue with this OP is it just assumes the Gold player is better MMR, when they likely are identical MMR. > The unranked player might even be higher MMR, and not deserve the gold player as a teammate. > > Every smurf I've ever made reaches insane elo-heavens because I'm much farther along than a brand new account. This means that I'm in Gold/Plat games as a Bronze/Silver commonly, and my teammates are obviously worse than me, but I'm still the lowest rank. > > The game does not simply recognize my skill and ignore it, it has me face even competitors as soon as it has an idea of my MMR, and it can do this in as little as 10 games consistently. > > It literally only takes me 10 games on a brand new account of killstreaks, before the enemy team contains Diamonds and Plats. I literally only get to enjoy a handful of games before every game contains high MMR, I've been pushed into these MMR on new accounts before the profile even unlocked flash and I have to win a 2300 mmr game without flash on a new account. > > At the end of the day tho, this is another example of blaming your team for your own rank in the 'soloduo' que when it's not their fault at all. If you have the base mechanics of a challenger, you will at least hit diamond, the people that complain about this are always in silver or gold, assuming they deserve grand master or challenger or some delusional mindset. > > "Challenger" itself is basically a 1000 MMR gap between the top and the bottom, so you can sure as hell carry a noob 500 less MMR than you. Challengers do it all the time, the only difference is the other person is also ranked 'challenger'. > > You also have to get to 'level 30' before you are allowed to play rank. This has to do with the game determining where to start your rank MMR based on the first games you played with no credit. They already proved themselves, you just disagree. You demand they start at B5, but the system recognizes they already destroyed previous Plat players, and simply doesn't care what you think. "The main issue with this OP is it just assumes the Gold player is better MMR, when they likely are identical MMR. The unranked player might even be higher MMR, and not deserve the gold player as a teammate." The problem with your statement is 'the unranked player might even be higher MMR, and not deserve the gold player as a teammate.' The unranked player needs to PROVE it, the ranked player with a boatload of games already has. The system is set this way because of players like you starting Smurf accounts repeatedly. New players should not be dropped into this 'mid' starting point though, there no justification. They are the weights holding these games down, and it's clearly not fun for them either, I see them going ballistic by the fourth or fifth match in a row being flamed by 4+ people.
: > [{quoted}](name=GankLord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0tAdxjV,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-19T05:47:29.478+0000) > > The majority of the stuff in S9 is carrying over into S10 so idk what you're so happy about. They aren't addressing damage, they aren't addressing the power of turrets so people can play around them if you're behind, they aren't addressing minions fking you over, they aren't addressing the lack of vision. It's just more of the same with bells and whistles on the rift the core of what S9 is not changing. Let's not even get into the new high damage, low risk and high reward champions they're pumping out. Wait for season 10, even more damage and instant executions at low hp threshold, once u claim dragon soul. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
> [{quoted}](name=Diopsideˆ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0tAdxjV,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-11-19T08:49:47.722+0000) > > Wait for season 10, even more damage and instant executions at low hp threshold, once u claim dragon soul. > > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} The dragon and map changes are bonkers insane, I'm shocked a company as big as Riot would do that. Summoner's Rift is by a huge margin the most popular game mode, aha the reason is undebatable: the map is great just how it is. "If it's not broken, don't fix it." No-one in their entire company has ever heard this saying apparently.
: Im sick of the remake system
I somehow fora remake with all players present last week? But them all the times someone Durant show up and it doesn't work.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ambitious Minnow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YG09qrlT,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-14T13:42:30.994+0000) > > This isn't edge case in any way. The MM alg drops new ranked players into low gold matches to see if they 'sink or swim' to 'place them in the correct place' rapidly. It's pretty ridiculous that a player in a ranked ladder would start anywhere but at the bottom but there it is. System is designed to cater to players making alt accounts one after the other, does not cater to players who stay on the same account *or new players, just smurf accounts. The failings of this system are pretty obvious to us 'average' players in the high silver low gold elo. This is exactly that coin flip stuff people talking about. > > Having one inexperienced player on your team can be even worse than 4v5, because of the feed. Playing with less than 80% of the potential power of the opposing team takes most of the skill expression out of the game. When people say one bad player decides game, these are the games we're talking about, and it's pretty clear it happens all the time. I can play LoL for ten or so matches today, and provide at least two matches where we get a total new player to ranked that throws game. So I should make another account and use that to get out of bronze?
> [{quoted}](name=NotFakerZed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YG09qrlT,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2019-11-15T05:30:08.799+0000) > > So I should make another account and use that to get out of bronze? You seem to have a hundred genes and be doing ok with Zed now, so yeah, probably. You'll probably place in mid silver, or at the top of Bronze with a large LP boost to sit you straight into silver shortly after.
HeeroTX (NA)
: In the current META, play a champ that will win YOUR jungle. If you don't do this, if you play a jungler that you need to farm up to get to 6 or whatever, then YOU need to prove the value of the pick. "Kayn gets screwed playing into Udyr"? Then DON'T PLAY KAYN. I'm an adc main, if I play Kog'maw and I don't know how to position well and thus die over and over, that's not the fault of my support or jungle or anyone else, that's on me for playing a difficult champ in the current META. Personally I only take buffs in one of two cases: (a) jungle clearly sucks (like 0/6 or behind by three levels sucks, and in this case it's MOSTLY to prevent the ENEMY jungle from taking it) or (b) its late game and there is no "my area" (at this point everyone on my team IS taking "my" cs and anything else, so anything on the map is fair game). But in early game (ie. pre-2 items (minimum)), my job is to farm up so that I'm not useless once I leave lane and help with drake when we're doing that. Speaking of which, if you (anyone not you specifically) are a jungle: Which would you prefer, jg+support take dragon while I (adc) pressure lane, or bot+support+jg taking drake and likely get collapsed by opposing bot duo and maybe more for probable smite fight/battle? I ask because if there's not a clear situation where the enemy bot either just recalled or just died, I often will stay in lane SPECIFICALLY to draw attention/pressure to the lane instead of to the drake pit. At high elo I expect there to be a lot more vision and knowledge of enemy positions before doing the objectives, but in low elo it's usually just "I'm here, let's do this thing" and if it's not blatantly obvious where enemies are, they often collapse on the group taking the objective. My theory in this state is if jg+support can't take the drake without me while I am in lane then we shouldn't be taking drake (at that time) anyway. (Note, this is only during lane phase when my damage contribution is not a major decider, if we can collectively kill the drake in a couple of seconds then definitely crank that out in a hurry, but if the most I have is a BF sword and it's only 3 of us the enemy is going to collapse on us while we're doing it and too many low elo jg don't know how to multitask that situation)
> [{quoted}](name=HeeroTX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPYB36qx,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T15:13:32.022+0000) > > In the current META, play a champ that will win YOUR jungle. If you don't do this, if you play a jungler that you need to farm up to get to 6 or whatever, then YOU need to prove the value of the pick. "Kayn gets screwed playing into Udyr"? Then DON'T PLAY KAYN. I'm an adc main, if I play Kog'maw and I don't know how to position well and thus die over and over, that's not the fault of my support or jungle or anyone else, that's on me for playing a difficult champ in the current META. Personally I only take buffs in one of two cases: (a) jungle clearly sucks (like 0/6 or behind by three levels sucks, and in this case it's MOSTLY to prevent the ENEMY jungle from taking it) or (b) its late game and there is no "my area" (at this point everyone on my team IS taking "my" cs and anything else, so anything on the map is fair game). > > But in early game (ie. pre-2 items (minimum)), my job is to farm up so that I'm not useless once I leave lane and help with drake when we're doing that. > > Speaking of which, if you (anyone not you specifically) are a jungle: Which would you prefer, jg+support take dragon while I (adc) pressure lane, or bot+support+jg taking drake and likely get collapsed by opposing bot duo and maybe more for probable smite fight/battle? I ask because if there's not a clear situation where the enemy bot either just recalled or just died, I often will stay in lane SPECIFICALLY to draw attention/pressure to the lane instead of to the drake pit. At high elo I expect there to be a lot more vision and knowledge of enemy positions before doing the objectives, but in low elo it's usually just "I'm here, let's do this thing" and if it's not blatantly obvious where enemies are, they often collapse on the group taking the objective. My theory in this state is if jg+support can't take the drake without me while I am in lane then we shouldn't be taking drake (at that time) anyway. (Note, this is only during lane phase when my damage contribution is not a major decider, if we can collectively kill the drake in a couple of seconds then definitely crank that out in a hurry, but if the most I have is a BF sword and it's only 3 of us the enemy is going to collapse on us while we're doing it and too many low elo jg don't know how to multitask that situation) I was liking most of what you said until you got to this adc staying at tower while support goes to dragon thing. Easily one of the best ways to TILT YOUR JG into OBLIVION. I promise you right now, there is zero benefit to your draw attention plan. As jg, there are two very relevant scenarios to what you said here: My bot lane has enemy bot lane pushed in, and I have comfortable lead on enemy jg: I will solo dragon ezpz. Otherwise if im pinging for help at dragon, _it's because I want the damned ADC there to get out done as quick and or secure as possible. Not support, YOU! THE ADC! Please dude, if you were asking because you wanted to know: show up at the dragon when your jg pings "assist me." Edit: I read the rest of your posts after, it's clear you are tilted and have no team trust. Whatever MMR you're at you probably belong there, amiright? Assume your teammates could be more competent than you until your sure they're not, or switch to jg where you can do the role better.
: I'm getting so tired of every game being destroyed by a Yasuo
> [{quoted}](name=Darth Sucadic ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E8QAELAf,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-12T18:53:17.903+0000) > > Every game is the same. You can't harass him because of his shield. You can't land anything big or CC him for a gank because of his wall. If he does get ganked, the jungler actually provides him a path of escape thanks to his E. Even if you somehow get a few kills on him it doesn't matter because he is guaranteed to get every minion kill anyway and he will scale through the roof later in the game. > > No matter what you do, you are going to lose to a skilled Yasuo. The only way his win rate gets dragged down is by first-timers trying him out and feeding. Yes, it takes skill to play this champion, there is no denying this. But skill should not mean he is allowed to be so absurdly strong. He is toxic to the game and needs a redesign. > > One simple change would be to just delete his flow shield. Now he can play safe early at least and be forced to farm under tower instead of totally dominating every opponent. There are probably good counters to every champ, if not most of them, Yas is no exception. I play jg and run a very off meta build Glacial Augment Warwick. Yas crumples like paper against GA Warwick. Tiamat + boots/ Berserkers Greaves on first backs, get Wardens mail them bork after. Ezpz Yas destruction will day long.
Jansuo (EUNE)
: I'm just so pissed because their company pays thousands and thousands of dollars each month to their programmers, and this is their result? A matchmaking incapable of handling edge cases? (And by edge cases I also mean matching players who are literally a few leagues apart).
> [{quoted}](name=Jansuo,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YG09qrlT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-14T13:34:29.510+0000) > > I'm just so pissed because their company pays thousands and thousands of dollars each month to their programmers, and this is their result? A matchmaking incapable of handling edge cases? (And by edge cases I also mean matching players who are literally a few leagues apart). This isn't edge case in any way. The MM alg drops new ranked players into low gold matches to see if they 'sink or swim' to 'place them in the correct place' rapidly. It's pretty ridiculous that a player in a ranked ladder would start anywhere but at the bottom but there it is. System is designed to cater to players making alt accounts one after the other, does not cater to players who stay on the same account *or new players, just smurf accounts. The failings of this system are pretty obvious to us 'average' players in the high silver low gold elo. This is exactly that coin flip stuff people talking about. Having one inexperienced player on your team can be even worse than 4v5, because of the feed. Playing with less than 80% of the potential power of the opposing team takes most of the skill expression out of the game. When people say one bad player decides game, these are the games we're talking about, and it's pretty clear it happens all the time. I can play LoL for ten or so matches today, and provide at least two matches where we get a total new player to ranked that throws game.
: When did proper farming and lane control in Bot Lane fall backseat to kills?
Im jg, but I don't get it either. I very rarely get a laner who stays farming near our tower even once their winning, and this is sad, because they are almost auto-win games in Gold and below. Killing minions to move up fast and take tower plate is ez, especially because most jg players have tiamat, and it's a difference of as many as five extra easy ganks when that desperate thirsty losing Yasuo keeps pushing back out to die again. But players in the lane think geographically being closer to enemy towers makes that plate more likely? It does not.
Rioter Comments
: with the way the new rank system is honestly i am surpised that new players are not in the Bronze/silver since it's more fitting for new players now that IRON exists.
> [{quoted}](name=hazerddex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IHevH8i2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-11T23:39:47.212+0000) > > with the way the new rank system is honestly i am surpised that new players are not in the Bronze/silver since it's more fitting for new players now that IRON exists. I'm not surprised by anything Riot does or does not do at this point.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ambitious Minnow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=0035000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T18:00:37.290+0000) > > You most certainly DO have an agreement with your entire team on how the roles are going to be played and what they will be, every time you queue up in ranked or draft. It's the metagame of LoL, and is now built into the game itself, hence why you pick a role before you queue. Why shouldn't I scoop up every bit of cs I can every time I'm in or near your lane? Because the agreement is that that is yours for filling your role guarding a specific tower. Whether or not you acknowledge it, you make that agreement every time you queue with a role. Nope.
> [{quoted}](name=Yordletana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=00350001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T21:17:10.198+0000) > > Nope. Go ahead and explain what you think is happening when you choose a role genius. Lol.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ambitious Minnow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=00350001,timestamp=2019-11-10T15:42:39.560+0000) > > Your lane cs is also a privilege bro, **not a right.** It's a gentleman's agreement that the jg player sticks to the he's valuable jg farm. You thing to do even a quarter of the things I mentioned on that list? Nope. Do your tiny part. You're not my "bro" dude. I have no agreement with you or any Jungler. Depending on the game/lane I may leash or not, deal with it.
> [{quoted}](name=Yordletana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=003500010000,timestamp=2019-11-10T15:54:18.008+0000) > > You're not my "bro" dude. I have no agreement with you or any Jungler. Depending on the game/lane I may leash or not, deal with it. You most certainly DO have an agreement with your entire team on how the roles are going to be played and what they will be, every time you queue up in ranked or draft. It's the metagame of LoL, and is now built into the game itself, hence why you pick a role before you queue. Why shouldn't I scoop up every bit of cs I can every time I'm in or near your lane? Because the agreement is that that is yours for filling your role guarding a specific tower. Whether or not you acknowledge it, you make that agreement every time you queue with a role.
: By the way, your leash is a privilege and **NOT A RIGHT**. Thank you.
> [{quoted}](name=Yordletana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=0035,timestamp=2019-11-08T22:06:28.881+0000) > > By the way, your leash is a privilege and **NOT A RIGHT**. > > Thank you. Your lane cs is also a privilege bro, **not a right.** It's a gentleman's agreement that the jg player sticks to the he's valuable jg farm. You thing to do even a quarter of the things I mentioned on that list? Nope. Do your tiny part.
X3N0N (NA)
: I finally understand why people think that the matchmaking is so bad.
The most obvious problem with matchmaking is the starting point. There is another thread where everyone is justifying the start point for these MMR systems being in the middle? Which is insane, the average starting player in these systems is typically quite near the bottom of the skill curve. If they aren't at the bottom of the skill curve, _it's because it's not their first account_, not because they are some kind of super genius. LoL has hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players(80 million monthly apparently) playing regularly. Placement should start outside of normal matchmaking, smurf/secondary accounts should be seperated from actual new players in a first round of placement by themselves, and then actual new players should be starting at the bottom of bronze without any fancy lp boosting. Dropping them all into pool assuming any of them can be Gold or better is insanely stupid. This isn't what happens though. Anyone who plays regularly can show many matches where they get matched, in Gold, with accounts that have only won a single ranked match in their entire account history. That's ridiculous, and should not happen.
Fuya (NA)
: Um, sorry, but you really don't understand how a Level 3 Gank works... You NEED to push HARD early, so the wave crashes at their tower and bounces back by the time you gank, also allowing your ally laner to be ready in Levels vs the enemy... If you slow push early, the wave is gonna be about 75% of the way at their tower when you are ready to gank, and your laner is gonna have lower Levels...
> [{quoted}](name=Fuya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=0030,timestamp=2019-11-08T19:17:48.197+0000) > > Um, sorry, but you really don't understand how a Level 3 Gank works... > > You NEED to push HARD early, so the wave crashes at their tower and bounces back by the time you gank, also allowing your ally laner to be ready in Levels vs the enemy... > > If you slow push early, the wave is gonna be about 75% of the way at their tower when you are ready to gank, and your laner is gonna have lower Levels... I'm sorry, what? Who are you replying to? What are you explaining? The level 3 gank has one requirement: enemy laner to be pushed out. 95% of level 3 ganks are on laners who have overextended too early. Pushing up wave against tower at level 3??? Why??
Cräfty (EUW)
: A message from a jungler to all lanes!
Reminder: As jg main, _in even a typical game,_ let alone a good one, I will: Track the enemy JG so you know before gank coming. Gank Counter Gank Counter Jungle Ward Control Ward Sweep Dragons Herald Barons Be present for practically all team fights Rotate to lanes to defend push Peel Responsible for: all 3 lanes and jg and objs essentially. Etc ... and I will farm my jg cs, which is worth LESS than your cs, _in between_ doing all these things. In the lane, at least in average gold game or below from what I've seen so far, laners think their responsibility list looks like this: Maybe help leash Get super fed Win game singlehandedly. I rarely see a laner ward an objective, and often not even their own lane bushes, lol. Even if I have done all the things above, am 6/0/6 by ten minutes, it is still 50/50 whether or not laners respond to my pings and just trust me(again, at least in gold and below). Someone said something along the lines of "I can't afford to miss 3.5 waves / super wave!!!" Seriously, that is rare, manage your lane better? The jg player is the player who makes everything sweet or rough until mid to late game, I cannot possibly think of anything more relevant to do then make sure your roaming party is in the best shape possible until grouping time happens. The same way it is vital to have one or two fed laners by late game, you want a strong jg to get you there! To a jg player, who is constantly looking at map for _plays_, everything is about timing. We are not guarding a tower most of the game, we are in a Death Race with the enemy jg to be more Deathy. When you demonstrate for your jg teammate that you are quick on the uptake and respond to pings well, no halfway decent player leaves that laner out, no island nonsense, nothing like that. Plenty of games I camp top or see someone camp top, why do you think those games happen? Because their top laner is working with jg! All you think about is getting more farm, _but that's not what it's about._ It's about creating a farming difference between you and your opponent(s)! Once you create the difference, all the farming after that is the gravy farm you want, but you first need to create the difference. Collapsing into your own jg with your jgler and ideally mid/the other lane is not just about protecting your jg, it's about getting the kill gold, and sending them back to base unable to farm for a while themselves. These are all factors in this when jg pings 'help me in our jg.' If you truly cannot be bothered to show up, are you ok with your jg teammate coming to your lane for the next wave or two to stay ahead of enemy jg? NO??? That's your greed talking again! It would be better for you to let the roaming guy, the guy who actually helps everyone across map, leave with that money / power and for you to hide under tower to farm a while. But you all NEVER do that. Manage your lane respectably, leash when jg wants leash, and show up the one or two time maximum a jg pings for you, it's called teamwork, and your excuses always suck and just end up in your opponent laner being more fed and full of red and blue buff when they show and you don't.
: trolls out of controlls.....
There should be a report dodge button. You still take dodge lp loss, but at least get to report players who start trolling from queue.
: > [{quoted}](name=Zardo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-07T20:13:54.626+0000) > > The only reason I could see people downvoting this is because of the condescending tone of the post That is my biggest complaint about the thing; the tone is counterproductive.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-07T20:19:43.489+0000) > > That is my biggest complaint about the thing; the tone is counterproductive. Condescending sarcasm is The Language of league.
Zardo (NA)
: The only reason I could see people downvoting this is because of the condescending tone of the post as well as a couple of things not being correct all the time, such as >If I know that the enemy jungler is invading me and I ping it ahead of time, move your ass down to where I ping and help me get the mofo out of my jungle! Even if you lose cs for it, me winning back my jungle and getting the exp I need will eventually translates into a gank for you, seconds after! Help me now, I help you later! If you don't come help me get control back over my jungle, guess what happens next?! The enemy jungler is ahead of me now and he's gonna start ganking even more and make all of your lives even more miserable... So be smart and help your jungler out... yes, that's right! junglers don't only help you, they also need help sometimes! >If I ping that I'm going for the scuttle crab, please move to the river! You don't need to help me kill it or stay there to watch me kill it. You just need to move with me for, like, 1 or 2 sec. I need the enemy team to know that I got backup so they won't try to collapse on my ass and kill me. This is especially more important if I gank for you and give you lane priority so that you can help me secure the crab/dragon/herald, and then you just ignore me and recall and throw the lead I created out of the window. Where in some cases it would be better for the jungler to just back off and concede.
> [{quoted}](name=Zardo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7PQhw3XR,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-07T20:13:54.626+0000) > > The only reason I could see people downvoting this is because of the condescending tone of the post as well as a couple of things not being correct all the time, such as > > > Where in some cases it would be better for the jungler to just back off and concede. You are mostly wrong on this post. With the changes to jg xp, once enemy jg gets foothold in your jg, you are probably done for. You get that extra cs when you ignore this scenario, but 9/10 times you just turned game into 4v5. If your jg is pinging you to show up, it's cause you need to show up.
Sspencer (NA)
: Why do new players start with low gold mmr?
Funniest part of all the people here that think spouting off about K values makes them sound smart: People that dig math and science love and always reconsider their values when PROOF that contradicts their claims is staring them in the face. People in this elo range could post hundreds of matches that were decided simply by having the troll new to ranked on their team, if it weren't for Riot deleting the posts because they "shame a player." Even though they are really about shaming Riot's system. We all know that proof exists, see it personally, Riot just won't let us discuss it honestly.
Rioter Comments
: You know you are gonna lose the game,when enemy's Jarvan got 4/1/2 at 10nth minute of the game when your afk Karthus got 1/2/1!
> [{quoted}](name=SilentBomber,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5ubNceOG,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-06-15T00:47:36.834+0000) > > You know you are gonna lose the game,when enemy's Jarvan got 4/1/2 at 10nth minute of the game when your afk Karthus got 1/2/1! Funny, you aren't paying attention then. Karthus can start afk af and get murdered a bunch of times, then still end up a late game wrecking ball. I've seen it now than enough times. Of all the jg champs, he is the most likely to pull off this scenario.
Rioter Comments
iMidg3t (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Unker139,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3EXvMfE,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2019-11-03T17:59:30.907+0000) > > Starting new players at the bottom would be like staring them at 0-500. Its not fair to give them automatic losses just because. The bottom players have proven themselves bad. New players haven't proven anything good or bad. It's actually fair. If they're better than the bottom players, they will climb. If they're not, they wont.
> [{quoted}](name=iMidg3t,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3EXvMfE,comment-id=0005000000010001,timestamp=2019-11-03T18:52:33.300+0000) > > It's actually fair. If they're better than the bottom players, they will climb. If they're not, they wont. I love, LOVE, when someone goes on for pages about math and statistics, then says this. With as many players as lol has, even if the system was great(which it isn't) luck would benefit some players and room others. It certainly IS possible to get bad rolls of teammates over and over(has to happen to somebody).
Unker139 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ambitious Minnow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3EXvMfE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-11-03T16:21:02.599+0000) > > That's not math at all. New players, because of their lack of xp and statistical Math, should be the worst of the worst, aha should be at bottom. Why would new players be average players??? New ranked players are unknown. They might be bad...they might also have a thousand normal games or it might be a new account for a good player. A new ranked account is 0-0...think of it as the same as 500-500. Starting new players at the bottom would be like staring them at 0-500. Its not fair to give them automatic losses just because. The bottom players have proven themselves bad. New players haven't proven anything good or bad.
> [{quoted}](name=Unker139,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3EXvMfE,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2019-11-03T17:59:30.907+0000) > > New ranked players are unknown. They might be bad...they might also have a thousand normal games or it might be a new account for a good player. > > A new ranked account is 0-0...think of it as the same as 500-500. > > Starting new players at the bottom would be like staring them at 0-500. Its not fair to give them automatic losses just because. The bottom players have proven themselves bad. New players haven't proven anything good or bad. Talking to you people is like being stuck in a progressive mirror funhouse of doom. Make an obvious and good point, watch other person do backflips to justify new altered direction.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Bell curves. You need a system that measure skill in a population? You want a rank to have a actual relation to skill and not just a representation of a investment of time? Then its on a curve. The basics. There are only 2 outcomes in a game. Win or loss. Equal probability. You have 2 games? Game 2 has same possible outcomes. Win or loss, But probability becomes a thing. Because not every combination is equally likely. 1 game. 2 outcomes. W or L. 50% 2 games? WW Wl LW LL. 4 possible combinations, 1 win and 1 loss overlap for WL and LW. So 50% you see a 1W1L Player. 25% for WW 25% LL. 3 games, 8 possible combinations of results. 12.50% 37.50% 37.50% 12.50% 3-0 and 0-3 are far less common then 2-1 and 1-2. 4 games. 16 combinations. WWWW LLLL being 6.25% each of the possible combinations. So for a "fair" game you would assume 50% odds. Both sides equal ability to win. When that's not true? That's how and why some one sees a raiting change. Your results are not matching what most likely to occur. Your above or below average. At Low Data? Yes its pretty RNG. However you can't magically know how good some one is with out measuring it, judging it, Rating it. So As you add more and more numbers the curves get more pronounced. This is literally how Casinos make their money, "House always wins" The numbers are set in games to give the House an edge and make it so the most commonly occurring event is them making a profit. Roulette for example. You have Red or Black that would be a 50/50 Bet if not for house advantage, the table also has 0 or 00 at which point house wins. So instead of 50%, (Reduced 18/36 and you get 1/2 which is 50%) You see It be 18/38 no matter if your betting on Red or Black, Odd or Even, High or Low. Kind of a drawn out way to say something that's pretty "duh", the things that are most likely to happen are the things that happen most often. So regardless of what "Rank" it is. The starting value in Elo and MMR will be the majority player, the most common level of skill, the average level of skill. Below average will sink, Above will climb. If you have that math in place and make the "bottom" of the ladder your starting point? Roughly 50% of all the games players are going to be stuck in that division and there is no title for the gap in skill. Iron 4 would be a majority of players, and the "skill gap" between iron 4 would be the equivalent of everything from current I4 to roughly Silver 2 (MMR is not made to be zero sum.) It gets more complicated as you go on, not less.
You added literally nothing of value to the conversation here, like one of this people that gets all confused when the math is rolled into a word problem. The starting point for ranked being in the middle of the skill distribution _only makes sense if all players are regularly starting from scratch in ranked._ But that's not how it works. The overwhelming majority of "new"players are exactly that, new or generally inexperienced. These players should be placed _in the middle of the new player skill curve, they should not be placed in the middle of the general player skill curve._ That. Makes. No. Sense. The exception to this system are the smurfs they obviously do exist. The obvious solution is to handle them specially, not let them break the whole concept of a ranked system. The obvious solution is to measure the skill of these new players before introducing thru into the general system.
Saezio (EUNE)
: I am not saying they ARE average players, I am saying you need to place them at 50% and let their wins/losses place them higher or lower. That's why placements exist, to swiftly move all accounts closer to their real skill. If all players started at iron 4 MMR then according to math, half would end up LOWER than iron 4 MMR and that's not possible. That's why you need to place them at the middle. Because if you are not placing them there, then you are artificially moving the middle point towards the elo you are inserting players. Does that make sense?
Think about what you're writing! No it doesn't make any sense at all! UNLESS EVERYONE IS RESET EVERY SEASON, there's no reason to be placing "new" players from the middle of the system! New players should be the worst potential players barring one place for people who are just below average starting bad, they should be starting from bottom. Instead with this system, and the "ability" to get placed fast, it encourages people to make many accounts diluting the ability of the system to make any good judgements. This is the point we're at now. The system caters to players who cheat it in every way. Look up players and dodge when it's your turn to get the obvious crazy ones? PROFIT. Want to place higher than your current rank, set up ten accounts take one that gets best placement carries. PROFIT. You've made it to platinum, but it's fun to beat low ranked players? Make a new account and you are rolling in two days flat, PROFIT. It should take time and success to move up any ladder, not cheap gimmicks like getting 87lp / win on a new account. This is the reason our matchmaking sucks.
: yet another game where im flamed constantly for playing badly, why are the players on this game like this? its really upsetting.
Because matchmaking is savagely bad aha Riot had not listened to pleas from players. All they flame in match instead. It's basic stuff, Riot pretends like not an issue.
Juice (EUNE)
: https://imgur.com/R3iMUXF How hard do you have to fuck up to fall behind 4 levels despite the insane jungle catch up experience mechanics implemented in game?
Kai Guy (NA)
: The way Elo and MMR ladders work is the starting value is the center of the ladder, more or less. Its not zero sum in MMR so some inflation or deflation can happen but its basically the middle and soft resets are a opportunity to completely re-center things. Its not a 0 to 100 style system where you go bottom to top. Its made so the average level of skill is used to build a bell curve. Ranks are just arbitrary segments of the curve. Riot can change what ever Ranks they want or what portion of the curve is represented, LP will slant to adjust, but the bell curve remains the same and is built off the populations skill. Ranks don't represent skill unless accurate.
How does a system where new players start in the middle and not the bottom possibly make sense to you?
Saezio (EUNE)
: So, new players need to be placed at 50% of the MMR ladder. Why? Because if they are placed somewhere else, given enough time THAT PLACE WILL BECOME THE MIDDLE OF THE MMR LADDER. It's math. If you want players to be placed lower, we need an entire new matchmaking system and a new "skill value assigning" system. Sorry English is not my main role ;)
That's not math at all. New players, because of their lack of xp and statistical Math, should be the worst of the worst, aha should be at bottom. Why would new players be average players???
: 5 matches = 1 win
The worst part of this system is that everybody that doesn't check and dodge (I.e. Cheat) is at disadvantage compared to those that do. If the "good players" had to pay with the same deranged inters the rest of us played with their win rates would plummet.
AIQ (NA)
: Okay, I'll just say your wording was really poor, but I'm on the same page now. Yeah it sucks that Junglers are forced into sub-optimal things. I think this could be slightly rectified by doing a "jungle rights" system, the game already knows who is "assigned" jungler. That champion would have jungle rights and be the only one allowed to run smite and purchase jungle items. However Smite would be a 3rd summoner. That way more power can be put into jungle items and you can have 2 summoners still. Then when you put on restrictions like, Monster hunter and XP sharing nerf, the power you gain is worth the trade. Or instead of summoners add more effects to the smite items now that laners cannot abuse them. To swap in champion select you'd just hit a prompt which indicates "I surrender my jungle rights to my ally" and swap roles.
We are close to the same page, cool. Personally, I think the only "right" move is to take out all the extra janky limitations. It boils down to Riot trying to enforce the meta game, which by definition it should never really be doing. Riot should create the game and players should be constantly creating and changing the meta game. Make jg monsters give normal xp without jg item, make smite optional( I do believe smite is the smart jg summoner choice in most situations, don't get me wrong). Let players actually make choices and play game.
AIQ (NA)
: What are you even talking about? Jungle Curse? Are you superstitious about Riot changes to the game? I can assure you that no higher power is impacting the league jungle. If you want to discuss something about how you feel the jungle changes are good or bad I'm all ears, if you are spamming this garbage for no reason then keep it to yourself.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2u4yBt2y,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-31T15:36:56.262+0000) > > What are you even talking about? > > Jungle Curse? > > Are you superstitious about Riot changes to the game? I can assure you that no higher power is impacting the league jungle. > > If you want to discuss something about how you feel the jungle changes are good or bad I'm all ears, if you are spamming this garbage for no reason then keep it to yourself. I'm obviously talking about Monster Hunter: It's a curse, not a buff or a quest to be completed with a benefit like support items get. The jungle weapon is_required_. Smite is _required_ to take jungle weapon. You 100% can not play jg without those two things anymore(you could and I did in old seasons.) Until you complete jg item, you cannot effectively farm minions if you want to do it. Farming jg monsters _doesn't even let you keep up with laners, let alone get ahead of them_, it's not a buff. "If your gold from minions is greater than half your gold from monsters, lane minion kills will grant 10 less gold. This _penalty_ is removed upon completion of an enchantment on a Skirmisher's Sabre item.png Skirmisher's Sabre or Stalker's Blade item.png Stalker's Blade."
Kai Guy (NA)
: > The fact that the matchmaker will 'place' people there to test them out would maybe work if it only mattered for that one player. But it matters for everyone. Its not to test them so much as that's how you build the ladder. It doesn't really care if they are above below or at that skill level. It just will react to the results. The systems are built to lowers the stakes in a game and some systems will have additional protection for ratings in place for if you find yourself involved in a placement game. Riots? No clue. End of the day, being established lower the stake in individual games and will reward consistent trends in play. Improve and it will show up, get worse (not always in players hands, nerfs are a thing. meta shifts are a thing.) and you sink. It never stops looking to self correct in relation to new data. The point I want to make is not its the system going "here lets test this player out" Its a universal starting point for each and every account. The idea behind Elo and MMR is to use naturally occurring averages to build a skill curve. Here is a visual, https://anydice.com/ Its a probability system. There are only So many possible outcomes for games played. So it uses a mean average because that will be the mid point for some ones standard good and bad games, then it has a distribution model to separate what would be considered an outlier or a standard level. Low # data and its not gonna be very accurate unless the starting MMR happens to be a very good value for some ones skill. As the Gains and losses are more dramatic accounts rubber band more and this can be negative for game quality But keeping a mismatched player inside a incorrect MMR is also very bad for game quality. Compressing Really weak players into standard MMR range is terrible for game quality so running this kind of system with out giving people room to sink is a bad call. By giving accounts room to sink you allow separation of people who are below average. "Rank" is nothing with out context. Being Gold does not give any one an exact value of skill, The skill for people in gold can change. Its built off the player population's average level of skill/performance. A Gold level player in server A might be a completely different Rank of skill in server B. Same for year A vs year B. This is why I find it entertaining that folks think Riot would need to Rig MM to "keep folks out of gold". Go back to that dice curve, Riot sets titles how ever they want in their system. Mean averages are represented as a curve I believe that Riot has shifted their Rank values this year. I might even be on record for saying this back to preseason with the introduction of Iron and the removal of division 5. The skill curve is gonna stay the same regardless of how they break it down but it looks like riot wanted more players to be able to achieve Gold. So they shifted tiles around on the curve to make this happen. This also has the side effect of pushing bronze and iron to a father side of the lower end curve which lowers # of players in those divisions. + the addition of iron which will create a perception of being "higher up" the ladder. All things that impact perception because we use ranks to judge skill, with out any impact on MMR. People get salty and quit if they sink to far, not something devs want. Back at your Bronze player. Really low # of games. He has gone up 10% WR from the last time we talked. At the time he played you his account seems to be in S1 g4 match averages. The game with you g4 average. Prior to that he was in a s1 game and won. Prior to the s1 game was 2 games of G4 both losses. Currently he has lost some more and his match average is now in s2. The account has dropped about 2 full divisions worth of mmr. Riots starting titles are a bullshit distraction, If I got my way players would need to finish 30 games to unlock a title and 150 games to unlock season rewards. But... Playerbase is playerbase. A lot of folks don't really want to be competitive players so a tournament style skill ladder is not something they give a shit about. They just want bragging rights and Riot's smart enough to capitalize on that. Those Juicy Rank up benchmarks.... They became an industry standard really fast for a reason. People do feel a good deal better saying Im Plat 2 rather then 265,058th from the top. Or Gold 4 rather then 890,112th place. (Numbers pulled out of thin air and not accurate representation to anything.) Anyhow, if I had to put $ on it, id assume riot just runs it off RNG rather then attempts to match experience and uncertainty or intentinaly "test" accounts. Its just extra work that you cant really rely on because it requires que population. More games being played is something I assume they would value more then trying to protect quality for games that are expected to inherently be low quality. Tldr. If its any consolation that was the first non placement game he played and his account has sunk 2 divisions now so he is making good progress to being in low silver or high bronze MMR at his current pace. It would take you a far larger # of games to accomplish the same rate of sinking even if you wanted to, to the point you probably would get banned first before even hitting bronze.
> [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kZJEcE3u,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-27T03:41:34.994+0000) > > Its not to test them so much as that's how you build the ladder. It doesn't really care if they are above below or at that skill level. It just will react to the results. > > The systems are built to lowers the stakes in a game and some systems will have additional protection for ratings in place for if you find yourself involved in a placement game. Riots? No clue. End of the day, being established lower the stake in individual games and will reward consistent trends in play. Improve and it will show up, get worse (not always in players hands, nerfs are a thing. meta shifts are a thing.) and you sink. It never stops looking to self correct in relation to new data. > > The point I want to make is not its the system going "here lets test this player out" Its a universal starting point for each and every account. The idea behind Elo and MMR is to use naturally occurring averages to build a skill curve. Here is a visual, https://anydice.com/ > Its a probability system. There are only So many possible outcomes for games played. So it uses a mean average because that will be the mid point for some ones standard good and bad games, then it has a distribution model to separate what would be considered an outlier or a standard level. > > Low # data and its not gonna be very accurate unless the starting MMR happens to be a very good value for some ones skill. As the Gains and losses are more dramatic accounts rubber band more and this can be negative for game quality But keeping a mismatched player inside a incorrect MMR is also very bad for game quality. Compressing Really weak players into standard MMR range is terrible for game quality so running this kind of system with out giving people room to sink is a bad call. > > By giving accounts room to sink you allow separation of people who are below average. "Rank" is nothing with out context. Being Gold does not give any one an exact value of skill, The skill for people in gold can change. Its built off the player population's average level of skill/performance. A Gold level player in server A might be a completely different Rank of skill in server B. Same for year A vs year B. > > This is why I find it entertaining that folks think Riot would need to Rig MM to "keep folks out of gold". Go back to that dice curve, Riot sets titles how ever they want in their system. Mean averages are represented as a curve > > I believe that Riot has shifted their Rank values this year. I might even be on record for saying this back to preseason with the introduction of Iron and the removal of division 5. The skill curve is gonna stay the same regardless of how they break it down but it looks like riot wanted more players to be able to achieve Gold. So they shifted tiles around on the curve to make this happen. This also has the side effect of pushing bronze and iron to a father side of the lower end curve which lowers # of players in those divisions. + the addition of iron which will create a perception of being "higher up" the ladder. All things that impact perception because we use ranks to judge skill, with out any impact on MMR. People get salty and quit if they sink to far, not something devs want. > > Back at your Bronze player. Really low # of games. He has gone up 10% WR from the last time we talked. At the time he played you his account seems to be in S1 g4 match averages. The game with you g4 average. Prior to that he was in a s1 game and won. Prior to the s1 game was 2 games of G4 both losses. Currently he has lost some more and his match average is now in s2. The account has dropped about 2 full divisions worth of mmr. > > Riots starting titles are a bullshit distraction, If I got my way players would need to finish 30 games to unlock a title and 150 games to unlock season rewards. But... Playerbase is playerbase. A lot of folks don't really want to be competitive players so a tournament style skill ladder is not something they give a shit about. They just want bragging rights and Riot's smart enough to capitalize on that. Those Juicy Rank up benchmarks.... They became an industry standard really fast for a reason. People do feel a good deal better saying Im Plat 2 rather then 265,058th from the top. Or Gold 4 rather then 890,112th place. (Numbers pulled out of thin air and not accurate representation to anything.) > > Anyhow, if I had to put $ on it, id assume riot just runs it off RNG rather then attempts to match experience and uncertainty or intentinaly "test" accounts. Its just extra work that you cant really rely on because it requires que population. More games being played is something I assume they would value more then trying to protect quality for games that are expected to inherently be low quality. > > Tldr. If its any consolation that was the first non placement game he played and his account has sunk 2 divisions now so he is making good progress to being in low silver or high bronze MMR at his current pace. It would take you a far larger # of games to accomplish the same rate of sinking even if you wanted to, to the point you probably would get banned first before even hitting bronze. "Tldr. If its any consolation that was the first non placement game he played and his account has sunk 2 divisions now so he is making good progress to being in low silver or high bronze MMR at his current pace. It would take you a far larger # of games to accomplish the same rate of sinking even if you wanted to, to the point you probably would get banned first before even hitting bronze." No it's zero consolation. You wrote all that to say almost nothing other than confirming what I was saying. The results speak for themselves, this player now even had a lower ranking. The system giving this player a chance to run through ranks quickly as new potential Smurf account, and he is ruining games until he gets to right spot. Then when this player is unhappy with his "luck" he will start this process will over again ruining more games. Placement should happen independently from games with placed players, and should be many more games. Update: This player is currently at 33% win rate and ranked bronze. Also hasn't played many games since then. He came, he saw, he inted. Then he left. THIS PLAYER SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN IN ANY RANKED GAME, LET ALONE A GOLD ONE. Matchmaking will never be quality like this.
Kai Guy (NA)
: 5 games played. 4 loss. Not really a big deal dude. People lose 4 games all the time and don't need to sink over 10% of the games playerbase per loss. What she needs is not to be iron but to be banned for afking then rageing and running it down. Recommend you post on your main or link to the game in question.
> [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kZJEcE3u,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-10-26T18:45:50.327+0000) > > 5 games played. 4 loss. Not really a big deal dude. People lose 4 games all the time and don't need to sink over 10% of the games playerbase per loss. > > What she needs is not to be iron but to be banned for afking then rageing and running it down. > > Recommend you post on your main or link to the game in question. Dude, there is zero reason starting with one loss after another should place you in Gold games. The fact that the matchmaker will 'place' people there to test them out would maybe work if it only mattered for that one player. But it matters for everyone. Everyone had to play game with this brand new bad inter. There is another forum thread right now talking about how matchmaking disparity is the primary reason for people just tilting out worse and worse, and it's totally spot on. Some players I play with couldn't find their Q button, others on occasion great, the range is ridiculous. I have thousands of matches last few seasons, from bronze up to now gold, the disparity of skill in every rank is clear every game. Why am i not in stable games? It's ridiculous that I have to keep getting players with 5 games and 1 win and stuff like it. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/match/na/3185546778#participant6 Here's your game link. You can easily tell which player it is. I should be in matches that are stabilized if I'm willing to play enough games, not constantly used as a testing chip for new accounts to figure out if they are smurf of bad.
Sancre (EUW)
: Its mostly a matter about the laner you are actually giving the kills, if you see during the match that the laner is really slow to answer to ganks, have no idea of how to hold lane or follow simple petitions like "play defensive please", you can't give it kills, or it will throw away first the lead, and then the match almost always, generally in 4 vs 5 situations, or even 1 vs 5, riven, yasuo and vayne love to do this. On the other side, of you see that the laner knows what it is doing, go ahead and give it some kills, not many, as a good laner will use a bit of a lead to dominate the enemy and get its own kills, and you, being a scalling carry, should get as many kills as possible without leaving your team completelly underfed and weak.
> [{quoted}](name=Sancre,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q4okzYJg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-25T10:09:57.050+0000) > > Its mostly a matter about the laner you are actually giving the kills, if you see during the match that the laner is really slow to answer to ganks, have no idea of how to hold lane or follow simple petitions like "play defensive please", you can't give it kills, or it will throw away first the lead, and then the match almost always, generally in 4 vs 5 situations, or even 1 vs 5, riven, yasuo and vayne love to do this. > > On the other side, of you see that the laner knows what it is doing, go ahead and give it some kills, not many, as a good laner will use a bit of a lead to dominate the enemy and get its own kills, and you, being a scalling carry, should get as many kills as possible without leaving your team completelly underfed and weak. This is the correct answer, 100%.
: > [{quoted}](name=GlassesBoy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VMs5fYLL,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-24T18:50:18.240+0000) > > I've played normals exclusively for a long time to get my girlfriend into the game, and we win some lose some. it's a crap-shoot but it feels somewhat fair. somewhat. > > We then join ranked, recently, we've tried three games in placements, and it's like 8 players of random fuckery. Nobody knows what the fk they're doing and just runs in circles honking and flaming. > > I feel like if my teammates were on the opposing team we'd have lost just as much. It's the difference between being a Leona and having someone walk up behind you and shoot, versus a 5 second adc delay of confusion followed by diving for no reason. It's insane. Like people don't know how to play. I presume if I went adc they wouldn't know how to support either? > > How am I meant to do this. The ranked and normal mmr are not bound, so the system is still trying to assess your level, and thus the matchmaking will be poor for your 10-20 first game. Once you have played enough games in ranked, the system assess your skill level rather correctly and you'll start having more consistent players (well, as consistent as a human population can be so, do not hope for too much consistency).
> [{quoted}](name=Starcraft243ver,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VMs5fYLL,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-10-25T10:52:00.072+0000) > > The ranked and normal mmr are not bound, so the system is still trying to assess your level, and thus the matchmaking will be poor for your 10-20 first game. > > Once you have played enough games in ranked, the system assess your skill level rather correctly and you'll start having more consistent players (well, as consistent as a human population can be so, do not hope for too much consistency). Nah.
: I got to Gold just fine. Ya'll just need to git gud to get out of Silver. Silvers are easily exploitable.
> [{quoted}](name=Mavëríck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VMs5fYLL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-24T20:26:51.838+0000) > > I got to Gold just fine. Ya'll just need to git gud to get out of Silver. Silvers are easily exploitable. I'm in Gold right now, and the difference in skill between silver aha guild seems to be negligible, if it exists at all. Your statement is not impressive.
: 2 games back to back with duo'd unranked players
Had a game yesterday with Irelia mid ago was new to ranked. She had played five matches, aha only won one. 20% win rate, one victory EVER.This was either in my promo game or right before. She was horrid, went afk in front of tower at 1min, then game back raging and spent entire match inting. I have over a thousand games this season alone, I get "teammates" like this all the time. Why is a person with less then ten matches age a 20% win rate in my gold match? It's INSANE.
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Ambitious Minnow

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