: > [{quoted}](name=JACOBSMILE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gbiNzuLm,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-08T03:04:19.684+0000) > > _Me:_ > {{item:2303}} {{item:2302}} {{item:2301}} You don't play support too much, do you? First back, if I have the gold, I'm always going to buy Forbidden Idol. Piss on the Sightstone, we have 4 wards from botlane alone (2 + 2), which doesn't even include jungler (+2 more since he'll usually ward common spots for a Sightstone Ward). Not only that, but all 3 of those items are worthless. The only thing you get from either of those 3 is the extra slot, which almost never comes into effect anymore. (Games usually end in 25-30 minutes, supports are 6-slotted at 40+ with their lack of money, assuming they went only cheapo items.) If the meta were a bit slower to favor slots and late-game, then sure, those 3 would be good for conserving a slot. But you know what to do late game instead? SELL SIGHTSTONE! That 6th slot could be a useful item instead ( {{item:3050}} to give your ADC the 50% Crit their lacking or {{item:3109}} if you're a tank), not just +150 HP and Wards that really aren't gonna do much since your team is probably gonna be 2 Oracles and 3 Farsights.
>Piss on the Sightstone, we have 4 wards from botlane alone (2 + 2) {{item:2055}} 6, ideally.
: PSA: If you play support, you buy sightstone.
: in my opinion kalista is in a good spot at the moment, tho her kit is incredibly strong if you can use it to its full potential, I have no problem that a bronze guy calls her bad just because he can't kite or because his supp misses her ult permanently
I call her bad because she speared me and now I keep getting F'ed by her ult.
abdul569 (EUW)
: When you have a team full of lockdown and cc
Plot twist! You're in cardboard 12. Everyone uses their CC at the same time and Yo alpha-strikes out of everything.
: Generalists are bad and we want to rework tanks to be not that
: Your main needs a nerf.
I'm a support main. All your complaints are just complements to me. Double if you're an assassin main. ;p (Note: I'm a support main, not a "Support" main. My roster includes Janna.)
: So... We nerf your main... and all the items your main uses? Yup, that sounds good.
I vote we just nerf the items and "compensate" the Champion. {{champion:45}}
: that's ok, {{champion:154}} already got neutered. they better leave my rat boy alone.
Is it even possible to neuter sentient Jello?
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIFAEjk7,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-05-07T20:57:30.533+0000) > > If tanks are worse, it could definitely be because their core items are numerically weaker. It could also be because they crutch heavily on Sunfire's damage effect (especially in pvp combat), and that effect undeniably took some hits. > > As we continue to get more information, if tanks are too weak, we're in a good position to just do follow up buffs to tanks specifically. If tank items have less Health on them, for example, we can buff up tank Health ratios to compensate, and because we're buffing the tanks and not the items, we're at less risk of balance issues due to poaching. > > Basically, it's very possible tanks are weaker than they should be at the moment, but I do think the ecosystem has been improved such that we can more reasonably adjust individual tanks. Nerfing lee sin will fix 50% of your problems.
Bring back Karma. She was a front-liner's best friend.
: {{champion:75}} : the cycle of life and death continues: we will live, they will die
{{champion:48}} "Smash through the pain."
: Trondo alpha. Do not get autottacked. That being said thank goodness he can't crit towers. You can complain that all tryns do nowadays is push top lane and focus on winning duels but he can't push towers as fast as you might think; also his ability to escape is somewhat limited, even with his ult. I do miss Fortify though.
His tower chunking is based more on his 5 second invulnerability than his raw stat potential.
Neddoreo (NA)
: Thing is, the idea of the support role in League is a great one, and it's something a lot of other games don't really realize very well. HotS has a few non-healer supports (mostly specialists like Medivh and Abathur), but CC mage supports like Morgana, Janna, and Rakan(a? :P) are really rare. Vision is also not a thing for most heroes. Zagara has a solid bit but relies on it too much to fight to put it down much outside of lane + teamfights pre-10, Khaza has a little if he goes Air Spirits, Medivh ofc. is half-scout in some comps, but there is no "warding". Blizzard definitely has their own flavor of supporting, and it's almost completely pure healing. Most of the "utility" is knockbacks or things that enhance healing (resurrects, Ana's grenade, shields everywhere, etc). It shows up a lot in OW too. I've not played WoW or Diablo to know how it works there, but I'd suspect it's similar. I do agree on the income sources thing. The support items were mostly a stopgap to fix that issue, and now the attempt to make them a more effective income source is just taking a bad solution and trying to make it better by doing it _more_ rather than reexamining the system for a better solution. And again, supports who aren't Lulu or Ivern aren't allowed to play anywhere but bot. Remember what happened when people dared try to take Janna mid? :( I do like the concept of champs designed for duo lane, mind. I mean, look at Rakan, or Nami, or Leona's passive. I think the concept of 5 champs in a 4-location game isn't inherently bad. There just needs to be another _viable_ income source, and we have to be okay with damage supports happening. Take it from adc/support to duo lane, and let supports be as strong as anyone else. The one takeaway from gold items that I really like is the concept of two mutually-exclusive income streams to prevent someone from just taking both and becoming gigantic early. The idea of quests is actually a really good one, but it's tied up in a bad mechanic at the moment. Don't tie it to an item we have to spend most of our early gold on just so we're _allowed_ to have an income. I could see some sort of "questgiver" NPC at fountain who gave quests where, let's say, you get gold for healing, but lose it for taking CS. I mean, that's a bad example, because that'd encourage people to play stupid just to get some gold, but it makes the point. Heck, you could even go really revolutionary and tie _all_ gold income to quests. Maybe CS doesn't naturally give gold, but there's a quest that gives you gold for killing minions. Maybe someone like Ziggs would rather go for a quest that asks you to damage towers, idk. Basically, give quests that reward players for completing objectives, and make that the income stream. Experience can honestly still be done the way it's done now, with maybe some small changes if we want to encourage more roaming.
The vision game isn't and shouldn't be limited to supports. It's a player skill and team necessity. I like vision being a strategic variable. I don't like how people insist on not abusing it. Solo supports would likely sort themselves out for the most part if the game was restructured to have 5 proper income streams. The problems with a solo supports is lack of interaction (which Riot is slowly working on), and strength when not living on scraps. Supports with full income tend to go crazy. And support crazy is a bad thing (right now). When damage dealers go crazy, they kill faster. When tanks go crazy, they die slower and occasionally kill things. When supports go crazy, everybody dies slower *and* kills faster. This is a side-effect of balancing supports around being low-income. When everybody has roughly equal income, supports can be balanced to have more normal power curves. At that point, it won't matter where supports go. . . . Unless Riot pulls another pre-season 4 out of their hat. "We're gutting supports' everything across the board to give their utility AP scaling. It will take 500+AP to reach where they were before this. Then we're going to make gold gen items that give solo lane level gold." I can't possibly fathom why Janna was the only support played during that time when mages had better damage and better non-scaling utility. (>_>) I actually don't like the idea of quests. LoL has enough mini-games with champion gimmicks.
Neddoreo (NA)
: I actually thought you were being sarcastic at first. :/ It depends on how Riot wants to go forward, I guess. If they want to keep codifying roles and enforcing metas instead of allowing strong flex picks, I suppose the solution is to create a support stat that helps mages/supports scale off of it as well as AP. So for instance, Morgana's Q and W damage might scale off of AP, but her E shield would scale off of AP _and_ support-stat. Janna's stuff, on the other hand, might _all_ scale off of both - or maybe just leave Q and W damage on AP, and scale W %movespeed, E shield/AD, and R heals off of the support stat. If Riot wants to allow the meta to change and evolve, though, just let supports have more money and bump up the cost of support items. Allow options in bot lane, and flex picks elsewhere. Don't lock support champs bot, and let us have nice things. Sure, there'll be hard-scaling champs who go support to safely scale, but... then are they the supports, or are the ADCs? Let bot lane be more equal. Let support be a role, not a position. It'd be really nice, and would honestly fix a _lot_ of issues around how to make support a less terrible thing to play while also not making everything else op. Seriously, I've played League for three years, and mained support for most of it, but I'm slowly shifting over towards HotS now just because they let me _matter_. Now that I've realized how it can be, I'm kinda discouraged from my favored role in League any more, because we're just not allowed to be good here. It's gross.
I've long made the claim: Support problems can't be fixed without solving the underlying game structure. Primarily, 5 champions and 4 revenue streams. In order to maximize team efficiency, 1 person isn't allowed to be awesome. In the LoL meta, that's the support. HotS solves this by giving everyone an equal income stream (F you, Lost vikings). Specifically, experience, and replacing items with individualized Traits. DawnGate solved this by making everyone choose a revenue stream before the match started. (Gladiator=CS, Tactician=old Coin+FQC, Hunter=Jungle, Predator=Kills/assists). This meant people weren't fighting for income (Unless they all took Glad/hunt). From my understanding, DotA2 solves this by making supports non-scaling early-game monsters. (I don't play it.) Gigantic solves this by being CoD. (>_>) Bloodline Champions (RiP) solved this by not having levels and making ~~supports~~ healers more than capable of wining a fight (That sustain, yo!). Hell, astronomer was even a top tier fighter for a while! BC wasn't really a DotA clone though. (>_>)
Neddoreo (NA)
: The fact that Redemption is a mandatory item on supports with neither shields nor heals (not counting her passive - we're talking support itemization here, we're not allowed to be selfish ever) is getting to be a bit sad. We need other items to be buffed up. Redemption is such an outlier not because it's too good, but because it's just dramatically better than everything else we can build. I want the option to build non-Redemption items. >.>
Supports can't have strong items though. Only strong *selfless* actives. Any time a support item is even remotely decent (stat-wise), non-supports get it gutted.
: How do you make Yorick work? Do you constantly push or not pop your ghouls until you get into a trade?
Pop ghouls for trades, hard pushes or to buy a few seconds of lane control (backing, invades, dragon, etc). Do *not* pop them without specific reason, since ADC's tend too flip shit when ghouls mess up their last-hits. Once mid game rolls around, use ult like a Banner/Zz'Rot to set up monster waves. W is a better Jarvin ult with no damage. E does non-scaling %health damage, making it usable at all points. The mark can also be seen on non-visible enemies inside your vision radius (Brush and FoW). Q+targon's gives decent sustain if you want to make a lot of trades in lane.
: Ha you Malzahar mains want his rework reverted. Funny guys.
: Lol that's awesome. The animation of Ed Edd n Eddy grossed me out as a kid so ive never seen that.
That particular episode is a trip all it's own.
: New Sam Jack is amazing. I had never watched it as a kid, but after this new season ends I plan on watching all the old ones. Or maybe before the last episode of this new season.
I have the box set. (>_>) The old ones weren't episodic (with a few exceptions) like the new season. Weren't as dark either, due to content rating concerns. But still one of the best cartoons in memory.
: I hadn't thought about building that one on Leona. Good advice.
A neutral, nonabrasive, non-confrontational comment. And you still hit -1. Stay classy, people.
: Thank you Riot for giving us Gargoyle Stoneplate
>not only do I gain an additional 40+ armor / mr because of having 3+ enemies around Don't forget the 20% scaling on eclipse. So in a dive scenario, that becomes 48/96 Also, it synergies nicely with her passive. Since sunlight damage is accredited to the ally the popped it, not Leona.
: http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/you-will-never-be-as-good-as-i-was.jpg
Can always try to imitate though. Welcome back, Jack.
: interesting fact: {{champion:412}} caps out at 999 souls. Technically he's not infinite, but to get to 500 souls alone is impressive for one match alone.
999 souls. Every 1000 souls, he gains a stack of "Soul glutton".
: 8000 stacks insta-deletes even a 999,999 soul Thresh. I did the math, already. :3 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rToVlrtl-kindreds-damage
Now the real question: Who will get there first? XD
: {{champion:127}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:85}} ??? I'm confused.
Wait.... Susan isn't supposed to be in there. That's supposed to be Naut. Fixed. Sorry for the confusion. ;p
Xavanic (NA)
: Nope, gargoyle cant reduce true damage, chos already abusing the fuck outta the item with 1200 true dmg ults at level 11
{{item:3812}} 80 {{item:3022}} 30 {{item:3046}} {{item:3193}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3111}} 110 bonus AD: passive deals 7.5% max health 1995+400+700=3095 health. Gargoyle(full)→6190. Gage Shield (if stacks with gar active): (4195 bonus*0.75=) 3146.25 So in a teamfight engage, Would would have to burn through effectively 9336.25 health to kill her in the first 4 seconds. Because 30% is converted to a DoT by DD: it would take approximately 12,137.125 damage (without resistances) to insta-burst her. If we divide that number into 5 enemies, that's 2,427.425 for each one. *Except* whoever she is damaging (PD), who has to deal 2718.716. Making the adjusted total to insta-gib her initiation to 12,428.416. If we assume the support does no damage, that number becomes **12,501.23875**. ------------------ I may have gotten a little carried away. (>_>) Still, not as bad as I expected thanks to how her true damage scales. But mother of Riot, that effective health (before resists). Ideal engages are basically getting a Kayle ult.
: It's busted on AP assassins now. They get to ignore whichever cc you throw at them to stop their engage so they always get at least ONE kill before the rest of your cc stops them.
{{champion:84}} /{{champion:24}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3146}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3814}} ;p
: ive seen {{champion:53}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:26}}
That still leaves me {{champion:432}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:127}} (I'm haven't used Rakan or the reworked Galio enough to count them yet.)
: Zerk Greaves? No Spirit Visage? Looks like a fine troll build to me.
There's a reason Trundle is the only champion that scales off enemy success. XD
: because people are playing sejuani top and he can 1v1 her whenever he wants?. no. trundle can't team fight for shit
In an ideal game, every champion should be able to out-play every other champion equally. So that's not *technically* an inaccurate complaint. ;p
Bârd (NA)
: Remember support Trundle? Good times.
: We need 10 bans like right now
and once 10 bans comes around: *"We need 15 bans like right now." Bans don't solve game problems. But this will get down-voted to oblivion anyways. As usual.
: When your main and backup picks are both banned
Support main. If both teams are so dedicated as to ban me out entirely, I'll be impressed. ;p
: I was under the drywall and made a tunnel to the floorboards, every time the floor squeaked it was me. I'll admit, I mostly hid in those places so I could annoy Rito with squeaking and making them wonder who passed gas.
I'm the one under the chairs, deleting phone messages and stealing pens. You can thank me for when ideas get lost and forgotten.
: Where did you say you are hiding?! {{sticker:zombie-nunu-hearts}}
: Yasuo is the reason ADCs can't have nice things
: I haven't tested it yet, but I don't believe so. Take {{item:3156}} and {{item:3053}} for example - you don't build both, because despite the trigger *effect* being different, they both apply the same "debuff" on you that you can only have 1 of. EDIT: I misunderstood what you were saying, but I get it now: you're talking about the added health from Gargoyle... I doubt it, but I'd be curious to know 100% for certain. That build above would be fun indeed... Kinda seems like a decent {{champion:44}} Top build too, at least vs AD top. Call me crazy, but that attack speed and Taric's 2 fast swings after spell cast work extremely well together. Honestly, that build would be good for any Juggernaut that you want to get into the fray with and stay in there to land some autos. It allows you to trade a lot 1v1, but also be a *serious* tank in team fights. {{champion:86}} comes to mind... {{champion:78}} ... Any Juggernaut. And so simple too, with only 1 active to worry about. And if that's 1 too many, get the new i{{item:3026}} instead of {{item:3193}} . You're basically wide open to magic damage, but even with that, the health pool + effects from Death's Dance and Phantom Dancer (if you can get an attack off) should let you mitigate some of that damage. If you can get away, or at least just not stay chain CC'd through like 2 rounds full rounds of burst, you'll be K. It's so good it's sickening.
>EDIT: I misunderstood what you were saying, but I get it now: you're talking about the added health from Gargoyle... I doubt it, but I'd be curious to know 100% for certain. Yep. Seems too prone to abuse. Same with CoC. But it also seems like something Riot would overlook. (>_>) New J4 build Confirmed? XD Or worse. . . New Fiora build. (Does Gargoyle reduce true damage? Because if not . . .)
Nesudeus (NA)
: I kinda like it. It's like every time it's safe you know exactly where to go to get 30g. If they keep placing it in the exact same place they're not warding smart.
This. Except during lane phase (very early game), Yellow has a lower duration than red cooldown. They switch around lvl 8 I think. Haven't crunched the numbers though.
: Buffing deaths dance to reduce 30% of damage taken to a DoT will prove to be a massive mistake
{{champion:201}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3193}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3047}} {{item:3083}} [CoC] Stand Behind Braum! (Can someone verify if Gage's trigger will count Gargoyle's active?)
: PSA: From Your Top Laner
{{champion:16}} If you think I'm TPing there, you're nuts. this spell goes top lane only! XD
: When you're playing support. an they keep breaking your wards.
{{champion:67}} {{item:3361}} x2 "We need Vision." {{champion:157}} {{item:3361}} x2 "Use Sightstone" {{champion:14}} {{item:3361}} x2 "Useless Support" {{champion:427}}{{item:1402}} {{item:3361}} x2 "I'd like to see the jungle. Thanks." {{champion:37}} {{item:2045}} x0 {{item:3361}} x0 {{item:2055}} x0 " . . . "
: wait you're telling me that when i get juked by scuttle its not faker playing her?
sorry to burst your bubble. (Not really. ;p)
Lexy123 (EUNE)
: 54 isnt amzing? for champ that has been out for 2 days?
The short time frame means highly variable win-rates. Sometimes they're low because people can't play the champion yet. Sometimes they're high because people can't play against them yet. Other times it's a combination of the two (See release Yasuo). 2 days isn't long enough to trust win rates yet.
: scuttle must be challenger
Challenger wishes they could juke like scuttles. ;p
: wait people play Urgot xD ?
>wait people play ***Urgod*** xD ? Fixed. ;p
: I meant for the Sunfire tanks. Obviously, manaless tanks will not have mana problems :D
>I meant for the Sunfire tanks. So just Shen and Zac then? . . . Oh wait. ;p
: I'm wondering why nobody realizes both teams can grab it. Maybe planning around it and keeping it warded would be conducive ideas... Knowing it's there, realize your lane presence means something in correlation to it. You know? Still, those downvotes are all yours, buddy. People are pretty miffed about the Herald right now.
People don't seem to be complaining about having to contest herald. They're complaining about what happens after someone gets it.
: bruh, leona and karma are some of the most ALWAYS AGGRO ALL THE TIME
Leo can agro pretty hard, but I go back to the cost/benefit analysis. If she falls behind, she gets blown up faster and can't do her job as a tank. When she gets ahead, she gets tankier, but doesn't necessarily kill or push objectives in a game-changing way. You can make the roam/gank argument with her CC, but that potential remains the same whether she is ahead or not. The risk of high aggression as a solo top-laner outweighs the reward. So while I *will* trade with her, I'm not going out of my way for kills or to force backs. Karma is in about the same boat, depending on which build you go. - Q-build is best for poking opponents down and avoiding fights. - Tank build wants to trade because it has incredible staying power, but you're trading team effectiveness for that staying power. - Shield build doesn't give a damn about trades, it just wants to be full build by 25 minutes. Note: that this isn't a hard "Don't fight" stance. If there's a clear opportunity for a beneficial trade or assured kill (ex. ganks), you take it. All I'm saying is, more aggression doesn't always carry equivalent benefit.
: Wow, she doesn't even have a gun or anything. Why would I play a lame champ like that? xD ~~reserving myself a special place in hell, yup~~ edit: actually, isn't Sivir quite popular lately?
I haven't been around for the last week or two. So..... maybe?
: How in the hell am I supposed to build 4 crit items, boots and a bloodthirster if I have to get all your crummy, liberal "Magic" "Resist" items?!
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Ariel the Cruel

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