: Client Beta Update #3: Closer to Completion
[From Riot Meddler](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/99Oykczu-so-about-10-bans?comment=0005) > **We're still planning to look into 10 bans once the new client's out** (changes needed to champ select for extra bans would be made in that, not the old client). I think it's quite likely we move to a 10 ban system, though that's not guaranteed yet. Assuming we do go to 10 bans **it's also possible Pro games and regular games might make the change at somewhat separated times** (different workflows for draft matchmaking games versus tournament draft in custom games which is what Pro uses). Can we get an update regarding the proposed 10-Ban system for ranked/normal draft modes? Are any resources being assigned to this currently? Maybe after Phase 3?
Aesah (NA)
: Rengar got hit extremely hard losing CC immunity on empowered W. Hopefully he's balanced now but we'll see where he ends up- the great thing about LoL is we have more patches in the future if he isn't!
As LastShadow has pointed out, Rengar was reworked to have **Olaf's Ultimate** on his W. This nerf dials that back to Rengar only having **Alistar's Ultimate** on his W. So yes, that is a big hit but is a big hit to an extremely overpowered ability. While LS's description isn't *exactly* the case but it does point at the absurdity of giving an Assassin CC cleanse/immunity as CC is the *only* defense squishy champions have against Assassins (aside from Zhonia's). As a Support main I feel that Rengar represents the most unfun game experience in LoL. He can AoE one-shot the champions that I am trying to protect **from stealth** and there is *nothing* I can do to stop him unless I have multiple forms of CC. And if I am able to stop him I almost certainly have expended 100% of my kit and activatable items and therefore have nothing left to defend again the other four enemies. Rengar demands an unreasonable amount of mental and in-game resources to keep him in check and therefore makes the entire match revolve around his existence. He changes LoL from being a MOBA to being a Survival Horror game.
: it should absolutely be up to your team in Ranked whether you can do a weird off-meta strategy. Copy pastaing a paragraph is **NOT** communication.
No. Riot doesn't enforce a meta. Players can't enforce a meta. Copying and pasting a paragraph into Champion Select chat **IS** communication. It is clear, in the language of the region, and full of helpful information. Compare that to most players in Champion Select. Memes, random links, **nothing** (which, by the way, is actually *not communicating*), complaining, arguing, etc. If anything, this guy communicates more and more thoroughly then the vast majority of players during Champion Select.
: Playing off-meta isn't reportable. Refusing to cooperate with your team is. If your ADC and Jungle agree to it, the players your decision directly effects, go ahead and do it.
This sounds reasonable until your look at the reality which is **very very few players will ever agree to off-meta picks**. When Riot decides to back up players that "don't agree" with another player's play-style then Riot has basically instituted mob rule. Groups of upset players can report another player and Riot will back them up. So now you have a massive player base that nearly completely conforms to a meta that can bully other players out of playing the game a way that is not acceptable *in their opinion*. Riot is indirectly enforcing a meta. Don't like Teemo support? Just stir the whole group up to report that player for "not cooperating" with the team's desires in Champion Select. Oh, and tack on "griefing" as well. Riot will dish out the ban. Not only is it indirect meta enforcement on Riot's part, it sets up the community to tend towards group-think and mob mentality. It also stagnates natural meta development. If the *only* players that can try new ideas out are streamers than we have reduced the sources for innovation by 99%. There is nothing healthy about "if we don't agree you shouldn't play it" sort of thinking. We should be looking for alternatives.
: If you're trying to say that Dynamic Queue can potentially represent an individual's skill OR their ability to work with a team, then you're quite wrong. Either way Dynamic Queue has no value behind it because you never really know if that Diamond 5 is a solo player or plays in a team with 1 - 4 other guys. Dynamic Queue doesn't have "one possible meaning", it has no real meaning simply because it allows so much variation.
>Either way Dynamic Queue has no value behind it because you never really know if that Diamond 5 is a solo player or plays in a team with 1 - 4 other guys. This just doesn't pan out. You don't loose **all** value in your rank because of Dynamic Queue; the system still tracks your ability to generate wins. The system is still functionally tracking your winrate. Your issue is that *you* value a system that doesn't include premade grouping as a win condition **in addition to** the previous set of win conditions (Last hitting, trading, winning lane, etc.). Now players can generate wins by using methods and skills that **you** consider invalid. The system still has value. Just because you don't like how the system allows players to generate wins doesn't mean the system has no value. All world class teamsports have ranking systems that are more similar to Dynamic Queue than they are to Solo Queue. This is a huge topic that I'm not going to get into but I'm mentioning it only to point out that the NFL system of tracking success has value even though it, like Dynamic Queue, emphasizes team success over individual player success. >it has no real meaning simply because it allows so much variation. It has real meaning but the meaning isn't as narrow as it was before. One of the biggest myths about Solo Queue was that it measured "individual skill". It didnt. Solo Queue measured individual **ability to generate wins**. There is a huge difference between "player skill" and "ability to generate wins". Consider this: What is the "individual skill" difference between the number 1 and number 4 ranked player in N.A.? Or this: Is a player with 2100 MMR more "individually skilled" than a 2000 MMR player? Do all the players with MMRs between 2000 and 2100 in N.A. have a very similar level of "individual skill"? Same question but instead of MMR lets use Diamond I. Are the top ten Diamond I players in N.A. all similarly "individually skilled"? See where this is going? As soon as you start asking these kinds of questions you realize that Solo Queue MMR and Rank aren't as meaningful as you think they are. Solo Queue MMR doesn't accurately compare "individual skill". It only compares "Individual ability to win games". You can be a Challenger level Tryndamere O.T.P. and be a few slots below Bjergsen on the rankings. You can have the same Challenger rank and very similar MMR but as a Tryndamere O.T.P. you are completely and utterly outclassed by Bjergsen as he can play multiple champions at a professional level under extremely high pressure conditions. Solo Queue **never** compared individual player **skill** it only compared individual player ability to win games. Worlds of difference. TL;DR: Dynamic Queue **does** have value and Solo Queue doesn't have as much value as most people think it does.
ZeeWolfZ (NA)
: The top 10% are the players who made League of Legends what it is now. They are the ones who introduced different mechanics, built the structure of competitive play, and are role-models in a sense. Then riot redefined what ranked and personal competitive score meant in their failed new Ranked System that they have been fixing it since the release. They throw around raw numbers but never official numbers. They've also discussed "fairness" of matchmaking. Sure, you get two teams: 5 solo Queue with 2k MMR and 5 premade with 2k MMR. What is there fair about it? You have a team who knows each other's weaknesses and strengths, has a 3rd party instant communication device, and who trust each other. Then you have 5 randoms who know nothing and just go in blindfolded. In these scenarios, premade should face 2300+ MMR players, because of the heavy disadvantages solo queue players have. Are they wrong for catering to one group? Absolutely. Unfortunately, you cannot balance out Casual Players with Competitive players. These are two different categories and should be treated differently. Is it fair? Yes. If you want to join the top 10%, you should prove yourself. If you fail, why should you be rewarded?
> Then you have 5 randoms who know nothing and just go in blindfolded. In these scenarios, premade should face 2300+ MMR players, because of the heavy disadvantages solo queue players have. Not saying your thought here doesn't have merit but I think there are more options here than what you are presenting. **"Randoms" vs Premades** Firstly, based on what I have observed on high Elo streams (Dyrus, imaqtpie, Scarra) at high Elo players interact frequently enough to have reputations. It isn't uncommon for streamers to say, "Oh, this is that Viktor main that blah blah blah". The point here is that at high Elo it is not like the "5 randoms" have never played together because the player base is so small at that Elo. Does this offset the disadvantage completely? No but it is worth noting because it is a reality that lower Elo players might not be aware of. **Myth of Voice Comm Advantage** >You have a team who...has a 3rd party instant communication device... Please stop citing this as an advantage as if solo players don't have the voice comms option. Everyone can take advantage of 3rd part voice comms. I get on voice comms with random players all the time. I have Curse, Discord, Skype, Teamspeak and Ventrilo. I actively request people get on comms during Champion Select. It takes less than 10 minutes to download, install and customize your settings for these programs. It isn't difficult and they are free. The vast majority of LoL players are perfectly capable of installing and using these programs. In the end, I agree that premades have advantages over solo players but I just wanted to bring up those two points.
: The main thing I believe is that it ruins the whole concept of having a ranking system. Your rank is designed to show how well you perform as an individual player, but when everyone can easily get into a 5 man premade and all play for their own individual rank, the system loses any value behind it. Now your rank usually just means how well you do in a premade/team. The worst part is that in Season 5 we already had ways to rank our individual skill and our premade-team performance at the same time. They threw that away and basically ignored solo queue players.
> Your rank is designed to show how well you perform as an individual player It boggles my mind how many times I hear this. No, that is not what player rank is "designed" to show. That is **one possible way** rank can be designed. Rank can be designed to "show" anything the **designers** want it to show and in this case, Riot has very clearly said they **designed** Dynamic Queue to emphasize teamwork over individual skill. >but when everyone can easily get into a 5 man premade and all play for their own individual rank, the system loses any value behind it The system loses **any** value to players who *only* value individual "skill". If you valued teamwork at all you wouldn't be able to say what you said truthfully. A player's Dynamic Queue rank is devoid of value it just doesn't emphasize what **you** value. There is a huge difference. I'm not saying Dynamic Queue is good or anything, I am only pointing out that your reasoning is unsound in that it pigeonholes "rank" to only have one possible meaning.
: I wouldn't believe any of these numbers for one second. All they ever talk about is diamond to master tier. Like 99% of the playerbase gives a shit about that. They pretend everything is completely find below diamond. Ranked is the only thing that kept me logging in every single day. The drive to get better at any aspect of the game, from game to game. I no longer set mini-goals to work on. I simply stopped carrying about DQ.
>I no longer set mini-goals to work on. I simply stopped carrying about DQ. This makes very little sense. How does DQ affect you reaching your mini-goals?
Kuroi86 (NA)
: I was trying to make a joke, I fail... ;_;
: Literally everything I mentioned are symptoms of toxic players that all vets have used since season 2. Whether or not it's S2 or S6 makes no difference what toxicity means and the fact you're trying to disprove my argument by saying that just shows how fucking dumb you are. You're only here to make yourself feel superior "Look at these guys crying and look at me not crying and level headed." No one gives a damn about your "opinions" because we're all here to talk about Riot's bullshit moves. I mean Riot's streak has been REALLY REALLY bad lately that they need to send out a survey asking whether what players feel is imbalanced regarding champs/items/etc. Actually look at teh individual changes in the new patch; the champ "fixes" are basically done by people who seemingly don't play League or don't play these champs. If you did your research on all this, you'd know instead of going "look at the red tracker, see they reply." Did you read any of those replies? Most of them are not really that productive and just devs being defensive towards bunch of 12 year olds who seem to know about balancing and what kind of balancing the game needs to fix the current issue. Let's not even get started on the Solo Q fiasco to which Riot themselves said was a bad idea to go into Dyn Q. And I wasn't replying to your toxic accusing post about the OP; I was talking about you with your 2nd reply. You're being toxic too with your passive aggressive bullshit; which is far more pathetic than openly being an asshole.
>Literally everything I mentioned are symptoms of toxic players that all vets have used since season 2. Whether or not it's S2 or S6 makes no difference what toxicity means and the fact you're trying to disprove my argument by saying that just shows how fucking dumb you are...And I wasn't replying to your toxic accusing post about the OP; I was talking about you with your 2nd reply. You're being toxic too with your passive aggressive bullshit; which is far more pathetic than openly being an asshole. I'm not going to let you lump me in with the group of people you claim call "everything" toxic. I very clearly quoted the specific things that I considered toxic in the OP's post. And I didn't say that to disprove your arguement. I said that to let you know that you were talking about something completely different than I was.
Civet10 (NA)
: Kappa is an emote on the streaming website Twitch.tv, used to show sarcasm: Nice flash Kappa, etc
I never thought we would ever specifically call out our sarcasm. That seems to take away the impact. I guess I'm old school. It is what it is, I guess. Thanks for the explanation.
: It was in season 2 where the vast majority of players back then said outright "Anyone who keeps accusing people of being toxic are the ones who are toxic." The word itself; toxic; is bad. People just call each other toxic for doing a tiny thing they don't like. Oh you stole 1 creep by accident? Toxic. Oh you pinged me? Toxic. Oh you fed? Toxic. Oh you suck? Toxic. Toxic everything. In-game is worse. Why not use the mute button to save yourself the trouble, right? Nah it's more important to surround yourself around toxicity so you can report it? This isn't like drug cartels killing your neighbor so you have to stand up and fight back for people you love. This is people acting pissy because they perceive someone else to be flawed, not them. Which is just about everyone who hasn't been humbled or isn't intelligent.
>It was in season 2 where the vast majority of players back then said outright "Anyone who keeps accusing people of being toxic are the ones who are toxic." This isn't season 2. That is not what I said. Why are you talking about this here? >The word itself; toxic; is bad Sure. >People just call each other toxic for doing a tiny thing they don't like. I was very, very specific about what I was calling toxic. Did you read my post? >Toxic everything. In-game is worse. Why not use the mute button to save yourself the trouble, right? Nah it's more important to surround yourself around toxicity so you can report it? Wow, that escalated quickly... >This isn't like drug cartels killing your neighbor so you have to stand up and fight back for people you love. No kidding, it was me giving my opinion to the OP about how to make a more easily recieved message. You are painting it as if I was defending my family from a drug cartel.
Serika Zero (EUNE)
: as I said before, people will have as much self control as they have in pubs. its not like pubs are kill or get killed, jungle law with no self control and full on eating,drinking and sex. Its just that people respect each other less there and often get in a fight which ends up with insults or physical actions. As opposed to a civilized debate (which is what you want). And I know riot doesn't answer to those kind of posts. Whenever is positive feedback regarding some of their changes such as "xin buff", "protobelt", etc. You know, things that actually matter a lot. Regardless how well structured the post is, regardless how good the feedback is. There's no rioter in that thread. But whenever there's random questions as "meddler, what did you eat last night?" or "hahaha riot so dumb, they removed qss", etc. Rioters will most likely respond to that. Because it doesn't really matter if they do or don't. There's very few exceptions to this rule and that would be: one guy made a thread (outside his working hours) where he was taking feedback and answering questions regarding champions he made. The whole thing was a "huge" success and the community loved it. Also the discussion in there was civilized. While other rioters were like "omg, I don't know how that dude does it, how he can respond to people, its impossible". Sry, I forgot his name. And the mage update where they asked for directions towards their wana do mage update. And again, overall the discussion was almost entirely civilized, with well structured post, just posting each other opinion in a positive tone. However >F ck that. I'd rather be active, take some responsibility, stick around and try to contribute quality content. One or two people alone, cannot change the world, or the system for the better. At best, they can destroy it. Nor will your take responsibility change how overall this community acts, nor will just 1 single rioter's (like a designer for example) actions change the way the company is viewed. And I'm talking about positive changes. Because negative ones are easy to be done.
>...as I said before, people will have as much self control as they have in pubs. This comparison is ridiculous. The demographics alone blow it out of the water. The average age of users on this forum is significantly lower than it is in pubs. Then there is the atmosphere, alcohol, the fact that pubs have "IRL" social interactions resukting in "heat of the moment" situations while these forums are almost completely anonymous and essential turn-based. Comparing pubs to these forums is ridiculous. >And I know riot doesn't answer to those kind of posts. Whenever is positive feedback regarding some of their changes such as "xin buff", "protobelt", etc. You know, things that actually matter a lot. Regardless how well structured the post is, regardless how good the feedback is. There's no rioter in that thread. But whenever there's random questions as "meddler, what did you eat last night?" or "hahaha riot so dumb, they removed qss", etc. Rioters will most likely respond to that. Because it doesn't really matter if they do or don't. > >There's very few exceptions to this rule Again, just spent a few minutes reading through the Red Tracker section of these forums and you will find that your "rule" is just not true. >One or two people alone, cannot change the world, or the system for the better. At best, they can destroy it. If your forum-to-pub comparison wasn't ridiculous, this certainly is. I'm talking about taking personal responsibility to not be toxic on the LoL forums. You start talking about "one or two people... [changing] the **world**. Way off topic. Not only that but in one sentence you say one or two people can't change the world but in the **very next sentence** you say that one or two people can destroy it. You said one or two people can destroy the world. Destroying the world equals changing it. At this point in your post you are being nonsensical and it is very hard to take you seriously.
Keti (NA)
: the idea
Interesting opinion. I'd love to hear the details. Remember, this was the OP's point, not mine.
Kuroi86 (NA)
: You forgot your Kappa. >_>
I have no idea what this means. Please explain.
: _Guess I'll write the same thing since Riot has blatant favoritism for their white knights._ ------- What's that? Giving up? I don't blame you really, being an ignorant little white knight with nothing to back himself up with must get tiring. ------- _Keep trying to censor people Riot, live up to those Tencent Standards_
More empty words. Give us something with content, please.
: Waaaaah! Waaaah! The meanie pants hurt my feelings! He's so ignorant even though I STILL can't back up what I say! I tried so hard and got so far!
Again, you are assuming that my feelings are hurt and you are mocking me instead of debating. You can keep writing commenting like this but it only shows that you have no real content.
: With their attitude surrounding soloQ I don't think Riot deserves respect any more.
So do you condone writing toxic posts to Riot on these forums?
: ehhhh i think the only one striking out is you broseph. Your saying "Riot responds to all kinds of posts." then you state "A very high number of the bug thread posts."......soooo they respond to all kinds of posts but the only thing you can come up with is posts about bugs in the game. LOL i would hope they fix the damn bugs in the game.
>...but the only thing you can come up with is... That is basically the same thing NoSkillShreking said. You are both making that **assumption** and putting words in my mouth and you know it. You can laugh all you want but the "Red Tracker" section of these boards is overflowing with examples of Riot responding to literally all kinds of posts. I linked that section of the board near where you quoted me and I cited one example. I'm not going to do all the work for people like you who are going to make ridiculous assumtions. >...come up with is posts about bugs in the game.. I "came up with" examples of Riot responding to users that result in the game improving to specifically answer NoSkillShreking's question. You either didn't understand that or are twisting my words.
: >Why not just drop the attitude? Its called getting angry. That's what happens when you spend months seeing valid concerns going completely ignored by Rito. Just to make absolutely clear what I'm talking about: Here is a thread of mine from 6 months ago about dynQ: http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/WzktEUAy-you-want-to-introduce-dymanic-groups-okay-but-why-not-also-give-us-pure-soloq-while-youre-at-it That's the tone we tried back then. Did it work? No.
>Its called getting angry. To repeat what I've said several times on this thread: Anger is fine. Venting is fine. Complaining is fine. Criticizing is fine. Disagreeing is fine. Debating is fine. Being toxic is not fine and works **less** than being civil. You can express anger, frustration, criticism, indignance, etc. **without being toxic**. For example, having to explain this idea over and over and over and over **in the same thread** is becoming frustrating. It makes me wonder if people thoroughly read the comments other people make. I just expressed my frustration without being toxic. I can express the same frustration in a toxic way also: "You guys are retarded. WHY DO I HAVE TO KEEP EXPLAINING THIS SHIT? It's so simple that anyone with half a brain could understand that you can vent without being toxic. Having to repeat myself gives me cancer." Same underlying message completely different tone. Both are venting but the latter is toxic while the former is not. I **forced myself** to write the toxic example just like people can force themselves to **not** write toxic posts. >That's the tone we tried back then. Did it work? No. That doesn't justify being toxic. Ever. Be upset, frustrated, angry, whatever. No problem. Smash (abuse) your desk or anything else you own if you want to but don't aim the abuse towards other people on the forums. You don't have to type when you are upset. That's the beauty of forums.
: Speaking from experience I assume? Oh wait... you haven't had it happen ever so you have no right to say it would happen. Funny how that works huh?
I like how this guy tells people what has or hasn't happened to other people he knows nothing about. He can't actually argue a real point so he sticks to making things up about you and insults.
: And as we've seen time and time again "being civil" doesn't accomplish anything either. So I think the majority of us will stick to venting about Riot's horrible decisions that we know for a fact won't be getting changed for at least 5+ patches.
>"being civil" doesn't accomplish anything either. Obviously not with you. Your first comment to me was nothing more than insults even though I had never spoken to you in my life. >So I think the majority of us will stick to venting... Venting is fine. It's the toxicity that isn't necessary. >...the majority of us... You mean the two or three people upvoating your posts on this thread? Have fun with that.
: Used Truth FTFY
>That's you, to a T. >Used Truth Some truth, I have hair.
: You don't fight over it. The jungler camps top until they get a kill. Then they go and get a free herald. Not much straetgic depth involved imo...
This is exactly what happened in my last three games. Camp top, take buff. Top TP ganks bottom then gets drag.
: ***
You finally got brave enough to ask an actual question instead of layering insults but you went back to random insults when I answered it easily. At least you tried, I guess. Also, Ignorance is "bliss" not tiring.
: ***
>Because Riot doesn't give a shit and neither do you. Wrong. >You wrote roughly the same amount of text as OP criticizing his method of delivery. > >Think about how you're feeding the rage. Someone frustrated with the game's state goes to the boards and makes a post. Instead of discussing it, you talk at length about his aggression and toxicity. That is certainly better than leaving an one-liner and downvoting him like most other people do. I did criticize but I didn't rage, swear at him, call him names, etc. etc. If anything the nature of my questions shows that I wasn't intending to merely criticize but offer my opinion as to how he could have his message better received. >What next, are you going to comment on grammar and syntax? No. That isn't constructive. >If he didn't have this scathing tone, his post would have never been upvoted and would have been buried and ignored like thousand of threads do. scath·ing ˈskāT͟HiNG/ adjective witheringly scornful; severely critical. You can have a scathing tone and not be toxic. You can have a scathing tone without this: >HELLO, DO I LOOK LIKE A BURST MAGE TO YOU? Also, you have no way of backing up the claim that his post would have been buried if it wasn't for his tone.
: https://media.giphy.com/media/vdQObjckJ0EY8/giphy.gif Incredible, so the only thing Riot has ever actually answered and then done stuff about are bugs. You sure showed all of us skeptics.
>...so the only thing Riot has ever actually answered and then done stuff about are bugs. You said this, not me. You are striking out left and right man. Good .gif though.
chessman (NA)
: "no one wanted the reworks rito made." Speak for yourself please. Reading through the update I agreed with nearly every change--the reasoning behind them makes lots of sense and I think it is taking the game in a positive direction. I think you have romanticized your memories of how league was before and are not looking at things objectively. The game is, and the mental processes involved in playing it are, at their core, basically the same as they always have been (if anything they are more engaging). I think you have lost your ability to enjoy the game because of things going on inside you, not things happening in the game itself.
Oh look! You are in the negative votes. That should teach you to not agree with "no one wanted the reworks rito made". How dare you suggest that that perfectly reasonable idea might be fueled by emotion and not reason.
: Oh you're that offended that people are upset with _Benevolent Ruler Rito_ that you need to insult them as they leave? How does Riot's dick taste? You white knights are the pathetic ones.
So I tell the guy to leave in silence and that he is pathetic, you run to his side and defend him and call me a pathetic White Knight... White Knight noun: a person or thing that comes to someone's aid. - [Google](https://www.google.com/search?q=white+knight&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) Pretty sure you are the White Knight here. Good use of edgy buzzwords though.
: But the support meta right now is tanks...
And that changes anything I said how?
: And out of all of these threads that Riot has responded to which ones have actually led to anything? None? But hey we had some "meaningful dialogue" right? That has to count for _something_ right?
> And out of all of these threads that Riot has responded to which ones have actually led to anything? > >None? > >But hey we had some "meaningful dialogue" right? That has to count for _something_ right? A very high number of the bug thread posts.
: riot responds to posts that dick suck, but rarely responds to posts looking to engage in actual discussion.
[You are wrong.](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/IfN9EP7i-please-explain-why-tibbers-needs-that-buff?comment=0002) [Wrong again](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/sOPku9ru-this-20-minute-herald-buff?comment=002300070000) [And again](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/okIn4dwh-why-super-galaxy-and-not-neon-strike?comment=000e) [And again](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/help-support/jlNUWtEI-summoner-name-clean-up-is-wrongmisleadinginacurate?comment=0001) [And again](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/help-support/7AKpZlxj-riot-refuses-to-refund-and-take-responsibility-for-their-mistake?comment=00010001) [The list goes on and on.](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/redtracker)
Keti (NA)
: ● On-hit champions that were overpowered because of Devourer and Rageblade will remain overpowered because of Bloodrazor and the reworked Rageblade. this is absolutely wrong
Do you mean that my paraphrase of the OP is not accurate or that the idea itself is wrong or both?
Fovere (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArxMessor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYn2r1kE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-05-04T18:37:29.752+0000) > > Rant post. > > Yeah, the game changed from season 1. Riot says over and over that they want LoL to be an ever changing game. > > Just leave already. Riot didn't MAKE YOU do anything. > > Why can't you people just leave in silence? You "parting letters" are pathetic. You spend 5-6 years involved in something and see it get completely reworked and lose a lot of what made it great. Riot also says they want this to be an e-sport and a 'way of life'. Older players (myself included) take issue with a lot of these big changes and are leaving in droves, so it matters. If people don't want to stay because they keep messing with what works. then they have a problem
LoL is like WoW at this point. It is too big to fail in the next five years. Cash Cow status. That mean you, me, and other players that have played for several years or more don't matter. I wish it wasn't the case but it is. I'm working on my fourth year playing LoL. LoL has changed immensely since I started playing. I still love it. I don't mind the change. I will stay and continue playing until they make changes I don't like or some other reason. What I won't do is write a letter saying I'm not having fun with the game anymore and am going to leave. I'll just not log in to League one day.
: http://i.imgur.com/WPqud5Y.gif He was a meanie-bo-beanie! Why couldn't he say the exact same thing nicer? Why do I need to waste time typing about how mean he was? That's you, to a T.
NoSkillSheking used Insult! It had no effect.
Serika Zero (EUNE)
: if riot would actually take notice or "nice" posts, suggestions and feedback, the community overall would be more nice but since they do not, people mostly come here to vent out their frustration. So, you won't get "lady-gentleman discussion". You would get stuff you would normally find in a pub. So, you either take it as such or move on to a better place.
I understand your feeling (emphasis on **feeling**) but your entire idea hinges on "Riot doesn't respond to 'nice' posts" being true and it simple isn't. Riot does respond to nice posts. There is even a [way](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/redtracker) to track exactly what posts Riot responds to. Riot responds to all kinds of posts. Besides that, even if Riot **never** responded to a single user post, using "they don't respond" as an excuse for being toxic on this forum (or anywhere else) is ridiculous... "Riot doesn't respond anyway so I'm going to be sarcastic, whiny and yell in my posts." What happened to self-control? Also, "venting" is not the issue here. You can vent and not be toxic. You can go into great detail as to how and why you are extremely frustrated with the state of the game, etc., etc., without being toxic. > So, you either take it as such or move on to a better place. F ck that. I'd rather be active, take some responsibility, stick around and try to contribute quality content.
Nazzadan (NA)
: ***
Are you going to comment on the focus of my article or can you only cherry pick the trivial stuff?
: That's right guys, don't do anything that could possibly hurt a grown adult's feelings, who knows what would happen then. Unbelievable how fast this sensitivity disease is spreading.
Why are you intentionally misrepresenting what I said? It's all about context and goals. Like I said in the post, if the OP simply wanted to rant then he succeeded. He can be as toxic as he wants without undermining his own efforts. If his goal was to hurt feelings then yeah, be sarcastic, and yell at your audience. That's not what it looks like he is trying to do. It looks like his goal was to seriously discuss what he thinks are unresolved problems between the Patch 6.8 and 6.9. If that is his goal then yeah, probably a better idea to drop the attitude and stick with a civil tone. Civil meaning, "polite but not friendly". I wasn't saying, "don't hurt feelings for the sake of not hurting feelings". I was saying, "don't hurt feelings if you want to start a productive discussion". Again, why are you intentionally oversimplifying and reframing what I said? It looks like your only goal is to mock me without adding anything to the discussion.
: Long Time Player, Rito made us Leave
Rant post. Yeah, the game changed from season 1. Riot says over and over that they want LoL to be an ever changing game. Just leave already. Riot didn't MAKE YOU do anything. Why can't you people just leave in silence? You "parting letters" are pathetic.
: Congratulations Riot, with this patch...
The tone of this article makes me sad for NA. Not the content, tone: "you fixed not a single problem, but made every existing one worse." "Congratulations, now you can build Bloodrazors, an outdated garbage item that was removed in S2 for a fucking reason." "HELLO, DO I LOOK LIKE A BURST MAGE TO YOU? What the fuck am I even supposed to do when I can't even splitpush normally as Singed?" "I'm not sure what kind of drugs Riot has been taking since the preseason." Riot provides these boards to the playersbase in an attempt to create meaningful conversations between themselves and players and between players and other players. The fact that you have to WRITE your thoughts down gives you the ability to step back, calm down and make a quality message. Having said that, the OP either intentionally chose to be sarcastic, whiny and to yell (all caps) or simply typed out whatever came to his mind. Either way the result is a post that has really great points drenched in toxicity. If the OP simply wanted to rant then this he/she did a great job. If the OP wanted to positively contribute to the Riot and the LoL community, then he failed. Again, the points he brought up weren't the problem: ● The Rift Harold buff plus the snowball nature of top lane can result in onesided and unfun gameplay ● Bloodrazor is a based on an item that was removed from the game for some (he didn't elaborate) reason ● On-hit champions that were overpowered because of Devourer and Rageblade will remain overpowered because of Bloodrazor and the reworked Rageblade. ● These champions will be able to use their power to dominate the now-buffed neutral objectives making other types of junglers less viable ● Buffing Brand in the rework could cause him to become overpowered as a Support and "crowd out" other choices. ● The massive changes to items has made massive changes to the game (and Singed, a champion that the OP likes). All of those points have merit and are worth discussing at length. Thank you OP for bringing solid content to the boards. What's with the toxic attitude though? It's not like you are forced to write "in the heat of the moment"; you have the all the time in the world to calm down before you post. The sarcasm and rage doesn't add value or impact to your post. If anything it distracts readers from your perfectly good ideas. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders when it comes to analyzing game balance which means you probably care about LoL and want it to suceed. Why not just drop the attitude? EDIT: OP is from EUW not NA.
: Learn when to dodge, also playing ranked for 3 seasons back before the new queue, you get a really good idea of how well someone is with carrying with a certain champ by the role they receive and how they hover / lock in a champion. Another "secret" is it seems Riot has ordered your ranked lobby according to MMR. The highest MMR rated player being first pick and so on..giving the lowest 3 mmr players on your team the ability to ban champions they don't do so well against. having said that your first pick could be tilted from higher brackets so do some research on na.op.gg and see maybe who might be tilted (if you are good at reading players in the lobby you won't need to do this) and maybe see who is playing a role they have no business being in.
Source for lobby being ordered by MMR, please. Confirming this is a big deal to me. It gives a lot of information to work with in Champ Select. I'm going to search around in the meantime but I figured you might know off-hand.
Malfini (NA)
: Ever felt in the middle of the game when the team is losing and you regret picking support? Like having the thought of... if only I have an offensive ability with high damage output" or "I should have picked ADC, top, or even jungle... wanting to inflict burst damage enough to pentakill the enemy team but your champion's build does not allow it.
If you pick Marksman you risk getting stuck with the Lux support that misses the champions but still pushes the wave and takes CS, doesn't ward, doesn't buy Sightstone, doesn't use Sweeper, and uses her ult to steal any kill she can and then complains that you are underfarmed and have no kills
: > [{quoted}](name=Chef Ardy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MMO3AOUB,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2016-05-01T13:28:26.765+0000) > > And please, > > **CLICK ON MY GOD DAMN LANTERNS!** why i stopped playing thresh with randoms
I found that spamming regular ping on the lantern as soon as it lands significantly increases the chances my teammates will take the lantern. Pretty much eliminated the issue.
: Feeders are trolls.
Whether Feeders are also Trolls depends on their intentions. Feeders are players that give up unnecessary deaths repeatedly in a single game. If a player is feeding intentionally then that player is trolling and is a Troll. If a player is feeding unintentionally then the player is having a bad game. Example: Player A unintentionally dies 3 times during the laning phase. Player A is feeding and having a bad game. Player B spams the "?" ping on Player A's corpse the third time Player A dies. Player A tilts into oblivion. Player A decides to run straight down mid lane as soon as he spawns for the rest of the game. He is still feeding but is no longer having a bad game but is trolling and is a Troll.
McKeifus (NA)
: Very well written. I appreciate the argument. And certainly an outcome-driven person with a positive attitude can be a fine teammate, and is not doing anything inherently wrong by possessing that mindset. However, I disagree in this context, because the outcome-focused people who boost end up making the experience worse for everyone - including others with the same mindset, but that aren't using the same tricks. They especially degrade the experience for the "journey-focused" folks in this instance. So it is inherently wrong, because you are stealing time and fun from others. There may be situations in which the above are true, such as one person reading a book, and another skipping to the end and reading the last 10 pages. No one is losing anything in this scenario, or many like it. But 5-8 other people(because maybe the 3 other players in your team want to have a good game, and not also be carried/sidelined by a High Elo smurf) are losing out.
You haven't said anything that disagrees with what I said. We both said that valuing outcomes over process is 100% okay. WANTING the Diamond border regardless of the process is not wrong. We both also said that carrying out a specific process could have negative effects. CHOOSING AND TAKING ACTIONS to get boosted can result in ruining other player's experience or result in a ban for violating Riot's ToS or both. No fault in the mindset. 100% fault in the actions. The mindset cannot (and should not) be punished. The actions can be punished depending on the "laws of the land" (in this case Riot's ToS).
McKeifus (NA)
: Why Boost to a Rank You Don't Belong In?
Process vs Outcome orientation: Turns out people are different. Who knew? Some people really value the process or "journey" that is required to reach a goal. Some people value the process so much that the end result's value, in their eyes, can change depending on what the process used was. An extreme example of this is seen in the common saying, "It doesn't matter if you win or lose. Its how you play the game". Other people care less about the process and focus more heavily on the goal or outcome; way the reach the goal matters less or sometimes doesn't matter at all. "Win at ANY cost" is the extreme end of this thought. Neither way of thinking is INHERENTLY better or worse, good or bad. It is a subjective thing. People who value outcomes more than they do the process are more likely to cheat. I admit that that is a major oversimplification of the situation but I don't want to type too much more so don't flip out please. Player A is willing to be boosted because the vast majority of the value, to HIM, is obtaining the objective award. Getting the border, ward skin, etc. He isn't bothered by the fact that he really isn't "that good" because he doesn't value the actual skill. It's all about the outcome. Is it wrong for him to value the border more than the skill? No. Is it wrong for him to get boosted in order to get the border? It is certainly against Riot's ToS. I'm not claiming that this is the absolute truth in every scenerio. I'm just applying the "process vs outcome" concept from psychology to the OPs context.
Daen (NA)
: This issue is especially annoying as a jungler, because you are at a ridiculous disadvantage without Smite. Best of luck with buff control without it, and for many junglers it's horrendously inefficient to jungle without the items that you aren't able to buy without having Smite.
The better option is to have the client automatically CLEAR Summoner Spells every time you first join a lobby and prevent you from selecting your Summoner Spells until immediately after you lock in your champion. It would produce a more consistent Champion Select process and eliminate the possibility of forgetting or not checking your sums. I'll break my idea down below. If you want the "TL;DR", stop reading now. Definitions: "Optional" - players will NOT be kicked from the lobby if the timer runs down and they have not confirmed a selection "Mandatory" - players WILL be kicked from the lobby if the timer runs down and they have not confirmed a selection "Existing feature" - the feature being discussed is live as of Patch 6.8 "Proposed feature" - the feature being discussed does not exist as of Patch 6.8 PROPOSED CHAMPION SELECT PROCESS ● Champion "intent" pick phase •Optional • Existing feature ● Ban phase • Mandatory • Existing feature ● Champion "lock" phase • Mandatory • Existing feature ● Summoner Spell select phase • Optional • Proposed feature • Immediately after locking in your champion a "Summoner Spell Select" window appears covering up the lobby/Champ Select window • The "SSS" window appearance is accompanied by an audio que and contains text telling the player to choose two Summoner Spells • The "SSS" window displays all unlocked Summoner Spells as large icons (as large or larger than the Champion icons) • The "SSS" window "minimizes" once the player confirms Summoner Spell choices or if the timer runs down or if the player manually minimizes it • The window can be reopened any time after initial confirmation • Prior to the initial appearance of the "SSS" window, the player would NOT be allowed to select Summoner Spells or minimize/maximize the "SSS" window AND the Summoner Spell "slots" would be blacked out ● Champion Select continues as usual.
cino (NA)
: Some dude at a game conference (dont remember the source) said the number of active players a while back and it was less than Riot's last released numbers Also, the last time Riot DID release the numbers was 2013 or 2014. Why not update the number of players if it's still growing?
Hey man, I'm with you on this one. At least as far as Riot realeasing the numbers is concerned. Obviously they don't OWE it to us but it sure would be nice to have hard data to discuss.
: "You set up the concept of "this field" and tell us that we need to understand it but you provide no explanation of it or any examples." Yes. You are right. I hope you dont expect me to lay it all out. I figured it would be obvious that some of the OP's terms fit in. Like variance. Its not an excercise in intellectual abstraction. I even provided an example of how someone could approach the OP's subject in a different way. Thats why you dont approach it that way. Its subjective. The OP already lays out some of the dimensions of the field. Variance is one dimension. However, the problem is that the OP also immediately attaches a value judgement to variance that is absurd and he does that with an absurd example of a dragon that wins the game. Theres absolutly nothing wrong with that dragon other than that it changes the win conditions of the game. The dragon becomes the nexus. Its not the VARIANCE that is a problem. Its a REDEFINITION OF THE GAME that occurs and you dont have to speak of it as if it were a problem. U can say, I dont like it. But that is a SUBJECTIVE decision. The problem with the post is that it claims to talk about the place of random in the game "both good and bad". He treats insanely high variance like a wincondition dragon the same as he treats anything else that he deems "bad". Theres really no nuance in his post. FEELSGOODMAN vs FEELSBADMAN is not a nuance. Its a sharp dividing line.
Look at that! A massive increase in content by adding just one concrete example of an item included in "the field". You didn't even explain the field either... I was seriously wondering if you were just in love with "hearing yourself talk" because of how abstract your first post was. It is clear now that, even though you put 100% of the burden on the reader to generate their own examples by not including any of your own, you actually had specific and relevant points in your head. Your reply to my comment is a much more enjoyable read because you have very specific talking points that facilitate discussion instead of multiple paragraphs of layered, undefined concepts. When I read, "However, the problem is that the OP also immediately attaches a value judgement to variance that is absurd and he does that with an absurd example of a dragon that wins the game" I was instantly and intensely excited by the possibility that the OP could have built his entire presentation on a single extreme and possibly absurd example. When I read your first post I found myself reading faster and faster until I was literally skimming in a desperate attempt to find something concrete. In contrast, when I read your specific, expounded idea in the quote above I stopped reading completely and started seriously considering your claim. When I finished reading your reply, Instead of thinking, "this guy reminds me of one of my college-year housemates that was basically full of 'hot air' like at the end of your first comment, I thought, "I see where he is coming from and I think that there is some merit to his criticism but...(detail)". Two thumbs up.
cino (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArxMessor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yNpRjuLR,comment-id=002500000000,timestamp=2016-04-26T17:55:08.534+0000) > > "They wont make money if their fuckups literally turn their playerbase away" > > This is true but not if you think the easily replacable, minority group of players that want Solo Queue back equals "their player base". > > It blows my mind that people think that if you stopped playing LoL because of Dynamic Queue that it would impact Riot. You could leave and every other player that shared your opinion could leave and LoL would move on without a hitch. > > And this certainly includes the popular streamers and pro players. They would all be replaced overnight. There are so many people waiting for their chance to be at the top. > > The game isn't getting less popular. It is growing and as time passes fewer and fewer players will know or care that there was something called Solo Queue. actually, I believe the player base has experienced an overall decrease. It isn't just us forum folks who are unhappy...
Well, I say it is growing, you say it it shrinking and neither of us provided any sources. Tears.
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ArxMessor

Level 178 (NA)
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