: Does Athene's Unholy GRAIL work with GUARDIAN or AERY Runes?
1 yes. 2 yes (Box is wrong here; The game actually does count font of life as your heals..... you can try it sometime on a champ like {{champion:99}} , where you can just throw her E, and not pop it for the damage. Over the duration it will heal an adc poking slowed targets. and yes. It counts as a heal. See your post game heals on a no heal champ. 3 yes.
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aAqJNKZu,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-04T21:49:55.615+0000) > > Stats don't even begin to support your premise. > > Eve is utter garbage and has little impact on her team, even if she manages executes. She cannot exist in any elo where teams don't work to protect her. Serious reason she gets no low elo play, and rarely gets played at high elo. > > You really aren't using stats at all to support your argument because this post is bias. > > If any champs are broken, its {{champion:11}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:91}} If you think yi is broken, maybe you are low elo. "OMG, how can I beat this auto attack champion???" {{champion:24}} Irelia is no longer relevant after the nerfs. Talon is not a jungler. The same premise of a "niche pick" could be used with quinn... she is played in half the games that eve is played in.
https://champion.gg/champion/MasterYi/Jungle?league= This is Yi's ban rate in Plat + It's the #1 banned champ even there. If you want to get more picky, and Diamond +, https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/MasterYi/Jungle/ 30.9% Ban rate at Diamond + Even in Korea, where this game is a religion: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/kr/platinum/plus/champion/MasterYi/Jungle/ 32.7% Ban rate. WIn rate doesn't mean crap. People ban him because he has the #1 item agency in the game. If he gets to TWO items (including his jungle item), his Win rate goes straight to 52%. If he gets to THREE items he's over 60% win rate. In other words, there are two types of games Yi loses. 1) Games that run too short and he gets 100% shut out of his jungle 2) Games that run too long and a team can take advantage of one mistake and team push mid and end it In between, Yi is the king. He has the easiest kit to mop of high kill takedowns for large bounties, and usually several at once. Yi is one of the only champs in the game who can get a 6-7k Gold reward for one team fight..... because he's cleaning up while his team is dying, padding bounty gold that was already padded. People ban him frequently, even at high elos, because he has so much agency that if they risk blowing their kits to shut him down, they are sitting ducks for his team, and if they are team fighting, they don't have the skills to stop him when he enters late. ------------------------------------------------- Quinn is not a niche pick and is one of the highest performing champs in the game, and her kit is BASIC. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Quinn/ rank 11 of all champions, 55% Win rate even among masters... Even her counters are barely beating her..... running at a 49.387 or so Loss rate on 4 champs. Her top players even in Challenger/Masters are pulling 80% Win rates. https://champion.gg/champion/Quinn/Top?league= #1 kills in top lane, #1 Top win rate, #3 in gold earned, and her play rate is up to 2%.
Umery1 (NA)
: which is why they play him as a support and not a solo laner or jungler.
He is absolutely a better a jungler than support.
: Are Nid and rengar more of a high elo thing then? Cuz I think I've seen maybe two or three is dozens or games around bronze/silver/low gold players
Nid's presence in High elo exists, but it's about a .7% pick. Really rare, specialized players who know how to tolerate the new jungle and constant invasions. She exists no where else.
: Of the 8 broken champs in the game right now, three need to be hard nerfed. They are all junglers.
Stats don't even begin to support your premise. Eve is utter garbage and has little impact on her team, even if she manages executes. She cannot exist in any elo where teams don't work to protect her. Serious reason she gets no low elo play, and rarely gets played at high elo. You really aren't using stats at all to support your argument because this post is bias. If any champs are broken, its {{champion:11}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:91}}
: Hate pyke, but I have to agree. But I need one thing to agree, his E is a bit fat, that is all.
It's as wide as his character. And it would never hit otherwise.
: yes. He already has a strong regen tool with his passive along with a good escape with his uninterruptible invis & movespeed from his W. Why does an assassin need so much safety in his kit.
His regen tool means nothing if he can't get away. And his W move speed at short range is absolute garbage. 85% of the time you're relying on W to get away, you are just DEAD. He takes 2-3 shots to kill, and by the time he's even close to far enough to get away, he's taken 5-6 shots. Play him instead of trying to theorize about a champ you don't.
: Plenty of assassins have more than one escape, and if they don't, their one escape is pretty reliable, except Rengar, Nid, and Nocturne. My problem with Pyke is that he has two pretty reliable escapes. Yes, one of his escapes is also his engage, but any assassin with more than one escape also has to sacrifice damage to use it.
They aren't really reliable. If he uses his E as a stun, it's down for the rest of the fight. If he attempts to W at close range, he can't get away from slows/adcs Basically the only way they are ever both going to be escapes is if you W up to someone, Q at short distance, fight a little bit, but then dedicate all skills to getting out. And other assassins do not sacrifice damage to gain mobility. Their AD scaling is often double his, their passives add serious damage, and their ults do far more damage. For example...{{champion:91}} . He might have one ability soley built for mobility, but his passive is what? 75-245+200% Bonus AD becomes a BLEED. That's more damage than ANY skill pyke has, and he still has Rake, which deals damage twice and works towards proccing that passive, and Noxian Diplomacy has up to 165% damage modifier. His ult.... Hits twice. for 100% AD + base. When you actually do the math, Assassins generally have twice Pyke's built in damage, and still have mobility. Pyke on the other hand has to finagle fights..... do some damage..... get away..... and come back for round 2. It generally leads to him not being a primary damage dealer.
: Barely any assassins have more than 1 escape...
Sometimes might be true, but when they have 1 escape it's usually spammable: {{champion:28}} 1 Ult escape. {{champion:84}} 2 Escapes (R to minion/monster, and Shroud teleport) {{champion:245}} 2 Escapes (E/R) {{champion:60}} 1 Escape (Pretty powerful one though) {{champion:105}} 2 Escapes (W/E, low cooldowns) {{champion:141}} 2 1/2 escapes (Q Away, E, and R invasion) {{champion:121}} 2 Escapes (Leap resetting, R Vanish) {{champion:7}} 2 Escapes (W, and her Clone) {{champion:64}} 3 Escapes (Q Minion/Monster, E Ally/Ward, R) {{champion:35}} 2 Escapes (Q, R) {{champion:91}} 2 Escape ( W, Almost infinite casts though and never on cooldown as long as he has mana, R) {{champion:238}} Up to 2 Escapes (Shadows are a complicated mechanism, and can be used in 3 different ways, 2 of them being escapes, and are cast on 2 different skills) I'm kind of wondering where you get this idea assassins only have 1 escape......
: > [{quoted}](name=DeusVult,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPQ6hkqr,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-03T17:41:44.153+0000) > > He cannot 100-0 someone unless they are either A. Alone and squishy or B. He is super fed and lands his whole kit. So I guess you just read the title right?
Except technically when played correctly he can do that. I've 1v3'd {{champion:61}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:245}} in a game where late game I literally had a solo Octokill, because my kill path started mid, brought me toward their base, and then as I killed #4 or so, the first kills began ressing, coming out and trying to help. I killed 3 of them again before the Nexus finally died.
: He's "healthier" than most assassins because you don't have to rely on racking kills *just* to stay relevant. Sharing gold is quite a big deal here.
You maybe get to share about 2400 gold total a game. In most games maybe 3-4 kills actually come from R. The others come from R "almost kills" where the opponent healed/dashed, and you finish up with Q or E. If you look at final gold scores it really doesn't help the gold totals much.
: In the past, I argued that {{champion:28}} was the "truest" assassin in the game. Pre re-work Eve had a perfect killer feel to her. She had to be played smart due to her lack of cc abysmally low defensive stats. At the same time her damage was no SO high that she could delete a full hp target. (unless she was REALLY ahead of coarse.) This made her feel more like a stealth action hero of the PS2 era like Solid Snake or 47; A stealthy, deadly sucker punch from the dark! But still extremely human if caught out. New Eve still captures this essence to me; They did certainly make her safer, but avoided breaking her identity or giving her a kit broken by design. I haven't played a lot of {{champion:555}} so I can't ad much regarding him. I like that they went for something different and not just another walking one shot machine. I firmly believe that the game has damage creeped WAY too hard!; And I know I'm not the only one. No champion should be able to 100 to 0 in less then 2 seconds unless they are SUPER fed in a team based game; and right now? Nearly half the roster can do it! It's not healthy for the long term of the game. When I first started I got really attached to my favorite champs! Why? Because they felt unique and had there own style! Like {{champion:28}}! But with everything exploding in seconds? Champs don't feel like... characters anymore. They just feel generic. The personalities of LoL's roster is what made me chose it as the MOBA I was going to play! Sadly, If I started today? It wouldn't be the same. And I imagine this could influence others decision to play LoL the same way it affected mine. Please give League it's character back Riot! {{sticker:sg-soraka}}
lmfao what are you smoking? Old Eve had insane sustain, insane chase, couldn't be chased, could stack 4 forms of sustain, and could easily wreck 4k HP targets. New Evelynn pops like a grape unless you somehow expect a fight to last 2-3 seconds, and can get her jungle 100% shut down.
: I have two problems with Pyke. The area of effect on his ultimate is too big, the health threshold is too high too early. 200hp is a substantial amount of hp to have left at level6, enough to make the outcome feel disgustingly unfair, almost as if he was destined to win just because of that ability, which goes completely against the idea of using skill to win.
His level 6 damage threshold on ult generally appears to a Pyke player like about 10% HP...... It's really negligible compared to the HP champs have at that point. Now late game.... the threshold is between 25% and 55%. That gets scary. And if you can't get out of Pyke's Ult, I don't know what to tell you. He literally can be interrupted mid ult, it can be dodged (it's cross shaped), dashed, disarmed, knocked back, or you can..... you know..... have a heal skill in your kit arsenal. Or you can play something which can literally cheat death like Aatrox, Kayle, Tryn, Zac, Anivia, Vlad..... all of which whom are current popular picks
nozik555 (NA)
: pretty sure Pyke is overtuned he's not outperforming just because players are still bad at him since he's relatively new
The problem with this statement is it only considers what's happening from one perspective. People are also learning how to play against him. So you'll have 4 different scenarios: -Good Pyke vs Bad understanding opponents. -Bad Pyke vs Bad understanding opponents. -Good Pyke vs Good understanding opponents. -Bad Pyke vs Good understanding opponents. That being said there are literally champs who can kill Pyke in a single auto attack..... something which should NEVER happen ({{champion:23}} can literally kill him mid E cast by having auto attack nearest targets function on in settings. Not only can he cheat death, he can 1 shot Pyke with 0 counterplay) And normally.... Pyke's damage output is actually pretty low compared to other champs. Cooldowns gate him from laying down a ton of damage, as well as attack speed and single scaling skills.
DeusVult (NA)
: Pyke is the only assassin that actually works as a balanced assassin
He's not balanced at all. If a team is failing hard, so is he. If a team is doing their job, usually so is he. If an opposing team consists of tanks, Pyke is fodder. If an opposing team consists of "save from death" champs, Pyke is fodder. If an opposing team consists of Conquerer style champs, Pyke is fodder. His play is too related to who he's against and how his team is performing to be balanced. He's raggedy man being pulled along by the strings. (This is coming from someone who actually CAN 100-0 Several champs in a row with Pyke.... I've actually solo killed 1v3 with him in a game where I had an unofficial Octokill... because the kills were spread out over 14-18 seconds between)
: I think u work for riot games with a fake account{{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} And ur trying to deffend the game.
No. I'm an economist and student of life (finance, business, hospitality, food.... children with autism, politics) I view the world through a more complicated lens.
SomeKat (NA)
: You are correct, the problem is paying for stats you don't need. The idea of this game is, if you need magic resist, you get magic resist. You don't get magic resist, 20 ad, and 10cdr. Marksmen Class have some of the most broken base stats, often considered 'squishes' when having more armor than a huge chunk of mid laners and supports at base. They also have super high mana regen, their cooldowns are just naturally low, they have high mobility, damage, range, movementspeed, for the most part, they ONLY lack magic resistance. There are many circumstances of noobtraps in the items. This is just another example. I also play Ashe, and Maw is pretty crappy on Ashe. Cait is very well rounded between "AD caster" and "ADC". But Ashe doesn't even need to CS well to do her job correctly and so she's perfect for a non-adc main because she is so basic. Cooldown and Spellvamp will do nothing really for Ashe, the most fundamental example of an ADC. Graves on the other hand, I think Maw is a core item. Because he is not an ADC. So while Cait is a great ADC, her synergy with Maw is still slanted towards being an AD caster. 10% might not seem 'entirely useless' but when comparing it to Taste of Blood or an actual champion that uses spellvamp, like Cassiopia or Katarina, then comparing 10% to how much they prefer for it to be effective (15%-30%) there just become less reasons to build it. The Gunblade itself is supposed to be attractive because the activation of it procs spellvamp again, if you don't need spell vamp that much, you don't need spellvamp really at all. ADC is supposed to heal with lifesteal, but AD caster has more room to argue spellvamp, but because their class is so auto based, lifesteal is just normally better. Getting Maw on Jinx so your traps and your E heal you, is spreading yourself too thin.
I get Maw on Jinx because champs like {{champion:101}} {{champion:63}} more or less wither to it when you take into account Jinx's Q range. Also increases the frequency of R, which I can nail 7 out of 10 times from across the map. The life steal is just a bonus once a mage actually gets you low. Can turn around those last second skirmishes. I mentioned I've 10/0/8'd this. I did it by basically being the team's tank. I went Grasp + Maw + {{item:3071}} and just soaked all the damage both my lane and their jungler were giving. And when I was low, I would just back up. I took over 19k damage that game while my team's average damage taken was only like 10k, and they were more deaths than me. I believe the lane itself was {{champion:119}} {{champion:432}} , and since I had Grasp I could heal more than if I was FF, and more than Draven could heal. Once I had BC, I could just dismantle them without ganks etc, because they couldn't run and I was shredding any armor they had. I know it's nontraditional, and it's definitely harder to CS with. But I generally know how to last hit etc and get good farm.
SomeKat (NA)
: It's true mantle rush is weaker against mages in general than Assassins because of Burst vs DPS, but Mage abilities are able to be dodged generally. Pros buy MR verses things they cannot dodge, if you're just eating mage combos in lane you need to git gud or switch lanes. It still does not change the math though that for less gold you can completely negate their pen. Magic Pen is a volatile stat that falls off just fighting .5MR level growth alone, it's legitimately never stupid to buy MR vs sorcs or an orb, Flat Pen is often a crutch all AP characters use to be able to deal their 'high damage' to squish for cheap, when in reality squish just don't block anything. Most Mages don't rush orb, they prefer Mana items like Ludens, so they are already going to have worse Sorcs optimization than Assassins will because pen is only good early anyways. You also cannot start the game with a Maw, but you can extremely early get a Mantle, even first item. The Mantle at most points of the game is reducing damage by 10%, this overtime outvalues the shield easily, and it costs far less money to do this. Costing far less money is the main reason it's best. When you upgrade most items, you lose all kinds of money into things you don't want or need, Katarina for example could give a shit about the Cooldown Zhoyna provides, it just makes it 350 gold more expensive for nothing, and she would prefer a cheaper zhoyna with no cooldown instead. The same thing applies with Maw. Does Caitlyn _really_ need 10% CDR and 10% spellvamp? No, but she will pay for that anyway, if she compromises trying to get the shield. That is the reason Mantle rush is just flat out superior. You are countering what you don't like, buying nothing extra, and paying the least possible gold to do so. The flat shield is literally a pointless damage reduction compared to the reduction gained overtime by resistance. By level 6, the mantle will have negated more than 350, before you could even afford a maw, and proc your first shield.
Maw also gives 10% life steal, and the spell vamp would apply on Cait's E and Q..... so it's not entirely useless. The 10% CDR is VERY useful. Try a 40% CDR adc vs a 0% CDR adc and you'll find several are actually MUCH stronger.
SomeKat (NA)
: The short answer is you're both wrong. Null Magic Mantle is among one of the most efficient item rushes in the game, it provides 25 Magic resist for 450 gold. A typical adc starts the game with 30 Magic Resist, and they gain 9 Magic resist by the time they level to 18 for a value just under 40. If you have played URF, the Null Mantle is effectively giving you the equivalent of level 50 Magic Armor, at level 1, if you buy it as your first item. The cheapest Mpen is Sorcs at a cost of 1100 for 18, so for 450 you negate an item most AP mages and Assassins use, that cost them 1100, but then you also gain 7 Resist(150g) on top of that for free, so you effectively counter their whole item for 300g, putting them 800 gold behind you. The problem is, why do you need to upgrade something that is already god-tier item? Upgrading it is a waste of gold for the reasons you put above. If you cannot farm with a 450 mantle pick up, that's not so great on your part, but purchasing a full Maw would be stupid. Null Mantle also sells for 315, so for the price of under 3~ potions, you can have level 50 Magic resist all game and never even consider upgrading it. People bitch all the time about 'counterplay' to Assassins, but I've yet to fight one that can even lane past someone building armor.
You get it for the shield. Adc vs a {{champion:101}} or {{champion:161}} or {{champion:115}} metes out too much AP damage for any adc to sustain and in a linear lane, it's really hard to dodge them all on the spamlord mages with semiglobal range. Vs short range mages it's not as much of a problem. Then you could just get the Null Magic Mantle.
: To be fair, an ADC cant just buy a hexdrinker early on; they would do no damage and it would put off their relevant power spikes even more. I agree assassins should and can get a hexdrinker though.
Yes they can, and should in many cases. I've gone 10/0/8 on Jinx building Hexdrinker.
: "You're an assassin, you don't build Maw wtf"
He wasn't trying to say your build was wrong. He was projecting in a fit (probably in response to criticism) with the best fit argument (in his mind) why YOU aren't carrying as much as you SHOULD be (again in his mind) Silver: Everyone's perfect players. Cannot accept blame for poor decision making like pushing out mid. So blame everyone else. Don't take it personally. P.S. Pros are building {{item:3110}} {{item:3065}} Pyke as support.
Escheton (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pIUEmAmK,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2018-06-22T19:54:28.594+0000) > > No. He's not. His Base HP scaling makes Tanking at most points of the game virtually impossible, even if he's built and runed tank. The damage overflow/Ignite is just too high to try to play him immobile. When he has 1300 HP, other champs have 2400-2700 HP, or are a sustain champ like an adc. In other words, even if you have 40-50% damage reduction, you're still taking damage from kits designed to kill 2400-2700 HP with 1300 HP. > > And then there's Conquerer and the new IE which make that all less effective. > > I'll tell you as I have been telling you: The best way to play Pyke is on MOBILITY. Get him out of a fight after he's done his job and is at risk. Go heal. Then come back. That's the best "tankiness" in the game. > > I average 34k damage taken per game on Pyke on games where I die once.... and it's not because of armor. Who is talking immobile? What a preposterous assumption. Of course mobility is key, his entire kit is build for it. Point is, masters level Pyke supports build coin and frozen heart, silver level Pyke supports build targons and duskblade. He isn't a tank, you should not play him as such. But you should build him as such.
That kind of blows my mind. I actually looked up your claim and that's extremely sad. I do not see a single jungle Pyke player in pros. They really are just playing him a support at high tiers, not at all using his kit for anything but last second plays. I am thinking they got disillusioned by the 1 hit potential of Pyke's HP so much that they decided it's better to just build him tank and play the absolute role of a catcher. Explains why Riot took away HP, and gave armor/resist growth. High level play was actually building him tank. But... I can tell you right now, and I may post some games on Youtube soon: 1) I'm not a Smurf 2) When I switched over from Normal Cast to Quick Cast, My Pyke play suddenly looks like I am WAY out of my elo. I feel like I am in Season 4, literally 1v5ing. 3) I Jungle Pyke. 4) I solo damage entire teams, not just leeching off my team's damage. Yesterday as AD, I went 20/2/7 one game, and another at 23/0/7. The rapid suppression of the other team I created was like a vacuum: They could not breathe. My ult was always up, and I literally went around the map killing champ after champ after champ from full HP. Once base fights began I literally had an unofficial 8 - kill streak Pentakill in one game, 6 kill in the other. I can probably guarantee that these two games were the kind of play you'd see when a Challenger smurfs down here. And I wasn't building tank. My primary build patterns were abnormal. One my first three items were {{item:1412}} {{item:3077}} {{item:3033}} , and the other I started {{item:1412}} {{item:3077}} {{item:3078}} . The Triforce build was literally just broken. I was taking a {{champion:56}} to 50% Health in one Auto attack! I know the skill gap is extreme vs who I'm playing with, but it's not the skill gap I'm looking at here. I'm looking at the constant control of these games. In all but two of my games yesterday I had absolute pressure. More pressure than a {{champion:91}} or {{champion:238}} and far easier kills. And No. I wasn't using some Aftershock or Electrocute to boost my damage. I was using Phase Rush. I am confused as to why these Pros are taking Crystalis over Conditioning with all these tank items though. Conditioning on FH/SV is far stronger than 9 AD.... ---------- I will be honest. When I was using Normal Cast Pyke was another champ entirely. On Normal Cast I was pulling 53%, and I was at the mercy of skill confirms. It slowed me down enough that I did have some bad games where I got disrupted. My kill totals weren't where they should have been, because I missed a lot of ults, and hooking was a tiny bit slower. Quick cast is a different champ entirely. I am suddenly way way out of my elo, and I'll probably be Gold within a week, if I have time to play, and I'm pretty sure my current AD play can get to at least Plat I (While I say I'm not a smurf, I know where my core inadequacies are: I often rage at teammates when I calculate their actions have created a major loss scenario, and in this elo they get vindictive towards people coaching them, and begin trolling/feeding as a hardstuck. I often varied champs too much, bringing down averages. I usually approach farm/fights as a high elo would in a high elo game: Safe, not entering fights that could be a wash or are guaranteed to be one..... but this is mid/low elo, so that's not entirely the right approach. If you try to play cautious in elos that aren't, you generally lower your contribution, because you can't split push when your team is dying, and you aren't contributing to damage if you avoid the fights altogether. If a champ enables me to bypass these problems, because a) I'm confident b) I'm mainly 1 tricking and c) I can bypass and carry my teams, My elo is probably easily Plat I - Diamond V And I probably would be.... if I hadn't got scared out of using Quick Cast by how it interacts with some champion's skills.... like Ahri's R, or Nami's R, where a slip of the fingers = bye bye ult). -------------------- Pros and I are building him for different roles. And that's probably a big key in this discussion. SKT1 Wolf does have Lethality games in his roster. He also has games where he does what you suggest. The difference I see in his tank build games are...... when he's vs champs who can eliminate Pyke's mobility. For example, one of his recent games was vs {{champion:24}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:157}} . The team has the potential to gobble up a AD lethality Pyke. Taunt's reliable, as is Taric's Ult/Stuns, and Jax's Stuns. Kai Sai's damage isn't crit, so tank is the perfect counter to getting one shot. But then another game he went Lethality. That was vs {{champion:163}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:31}} . Not much hard CC to contend with, and he probably calculated that it's better to augment my team's damage and hasten Jhin and Cho's death, than to try to tank them. I do think Pros vary vs the team they are against. A disproportionately high amount are building tank because every team has a couple really dangerous champs to Pyke.
: Petition to make Nullifying Orb adaptive
It won't work because of how the two behave. Camille's shield comes up on the onset of the damage. In other words, it reacts to an If / Then query on damage type and acts accordingly. Nullifying Orb acts like Maw, where the actual If/Then Involved is not what kind of damage is recieved, but: Is the subject is under 30% HP? If /Then Activate. To have Nullifying Orb become Adaptive, you would have to apply a second string of Queries..... something I don't see anywhere else in League I'm curious if anyone can think of any. I was going to suggest Minimum damage on % damage might be a dual string Query, but it's not. The base % damage is rudimentary; The only If/Then applied here is which is Greater? The fixed Minimum damage, or the variable % damage? From what I can tell..... each individual function of League is single thread. It's just a ton of threads that often occur simultaneously.
: No. None of us are pros and all of us make many mistakes. Did you play perfect in every game you lost?
I generally am the one of maybe two purpose and strategic based players in my games. We know how the game should operate. But the rest of the team just doesn't believe it. I think evidence suggests that yes. Some players are near perfect and still lose. Because they cannot relay messages to their teams. Even SKT 1 yells at their Solo/Duo teams because their teammates don't operate under logic and strategy. Go watch their streams sometime. They literally go nuts over people making really dumb mistakes, and 90% of the time..... they are right! Saying none of us are pros etc seems like a projection of blame to me. Imperfection believes that everything else is imperfect to justify imperfection. Now.... I'm not saying Perfection exists. But there are modicums of imperfection damn NEAR perfection who should generally be viewed AS a standard for perfection. And some players do have that. You should try to listen to those who actually know what they are saying and are analyzing. Don't shut them up. Do you know how many times I tell a team exactly what will happen level 1, 2 and 3, and they completely ignore it, and it happens anyways? I can tell a team I'm going to get invaded and at what exact time, and where..... and they won't even prepare for it. Welp.... that's your problem! _**No..... It's yours too.... it's a team game, and if I get boxed out of my own jungle by a mechanical counter, you're sabotaging yourself....**_ I can tell them that a lane is a duo or a jungle and a laner are a funneling duo. Doesn't matter. They push out anyways and feed the duo. Not once. But over and over. And then ping assistance when their turret is 20% and I'm on the other side of the map after they've already fed 0/4. I can tell a bot to play passive because the other team has an insanely killer synergy level 1-2. Doesn't matter. They feed level 2 First bloods anyways. Or I urge my team to ward a certain path because I'm playing something like {{champion:555}} and I need vision control not to get shadow ganked on my low HP.... and then the entire game goes by without my team ever setting up good ward paths (which is goddamn important on Pyke!) In none of these situations...... is there something I myself could do more perfect to remedy a weakness or obstacle. I'm asking/telling my team how to achieve success. They ignore it. Relative to me, yes. They are more imperfect than I am.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9TdvEcrm,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-26T13:27:34.024+0000) > > Your account says you're SIlver V and have a whopping 39% win with Tristana, and none of your scores look like a 1 million mastery score.... or the scores of someone smurfing her who has 1 million mastery...... > > _**This post is a meme.**_ > > And I've learned that arguing with memes is pointless :) Ended last season with a 55% winrate on tristana and a 53% overall winrate in s3. I stopped playing ranked or I could have gotten gold. This year, I was forced into playing my placements after a solid month of not playing at all because I wanted to play in a friends league and he decided to try and help me through them as a diamond 5 smurf playing khazix mid and essentially trolling me. I haven't played ranked all this season because of it and that shows in the fact that I have 20 odd games. You can click the previous tab and see my 200+ games on tristana last season or you can go here: https://championmasterylookup.derpthemeus.com/summoner?summoner=OtterlyLost&region=NA and see that I have a staggering number of mastery points on the champion. And finally resorting to calling out my rank and trying to "meme" when you're proven wrong just makes you look like an idiot.
Wow. 930k Mastery on Tristana. That's Legit :S. But..... having that type of 1 trick mastery generally puts someone in Diamond +.... In other words, it's not indicatve of actually having mastered her. Tristana can easily carry to platinum. Past that people generally are cautious and don't allow her to thrive. But silver.... means you just have spammed a lot of games :S. And a Diamond V smurf could totally mid Kha Zix. There's nothing gating him from playing the role.
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9TdvEcrm,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-26T07:30:42.702+0000) > > There are at least 3 adcs who do not need fed to assassinate: > > {{champion:222}} : Her range carries her even when behind. As long as she has a cc wall of allies in front of her, she is the most Pentakill friendly champ in the game. > > {{champion:18}} Can assassinate before she's even fed. All being fed does for her is increase the HP by which she survives and how many times she can reset. (She can burst ~2100 HP with just a {{item:3153}} early game) > > {{champion:133}} Although an extremely low Bot pick, she has an insanely unchecked in rate in ALL roles of 73% + once she has 2 items. She is one of the easiest adcs to assassinate with, has overcapping damage in just 2 abilities, and can now mark on EVERY skill where she used to be able to only Mark on one, and her passive. This creates 3 mark procs in a matter of about 2 seconds, and she builds Lethality to boost, and has the fastest map travel in the game. Uh I play two of the three of these and can say, yes. You need to either be fed or extremely well farmed and if you didn't manage either early on, you're stuck waiting until late game. At which point, if Tristana and Jinx have spent the game behind and they reach late game without you closing out, that's your fault and you deserve to be "assassinated" as you put it. That's your own inability to close out the game fast. I know for a fact tristana cannot burst you with one item and definitely not with just bork unless you're just stupidly underfed and behind, which, again, is your fault and you have earned that. I have almost 1 million mastery points on her and I know what she can and cannot do and when she can and cant do it. And most of the time, she wont be rushing a bork first item in the first place; not when BT or BF into Zeal is much stronger for her. Quinn is an assassin; she is considered to be like graves and corki. All assassins can burst you without being fed. ._. A zed or talon can burst a squishy if they're behind if they catch them alone and off guard. Have you even played a marksmen before? The ignorance in these boards is astounding. I love when they come in and complain about fed ADCs bursting them in teamfights, like a class who is designed to and only builds full damage isn't going to do *alot* of it if well farmed and fed. > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9TdvEcrm,comment-id=00020000000100000001,timestamp=2018-06-26T07:18:29.179+0000) > > What a joke. Just because you get a support in lane as a slave doesn't mean you aren't the strongest class and surely that isn't the only reason why. I hate this damn excuse so badly. Again, the support decides laning phase and has full control over it. Morons like you should try playing bot lane for a month or two *as a marksmen* and see just how "overpowered" this class is. Your skill in lane does not matter; you can be trash tier or you can be a God. Doesn't fucking matter if your support is a potato. They decide your laning phase for you and it doesn't end after it's over and shit. If they cant protect you in teamfights, you arent doing shit. This is shown to me constantly in my own games; I leave lane fed? Doesn't matter. They have a fed assassin and my support cant save me, my team cant protect me. We just lose. Because marksmen dont have agency. Their defenses have been consistently crippled more and more over the course of this game and so has their "solo carry" potential. No marksmen carries the game on their own. Which makes the losses you suffer sometimes even more demoralizing and frustrating. I have left laning phases as 5/0 but my mid (who actually has all the power and solo carry potential on the map; mid mains who tell you otherwise are just bad at their lane) opened up a soup kitchen to their laner and I cant do anything. That laner, regardless of who it is or what it is, scales faster than me, has self peeling abilities that allow them to function with a team full of monkeys, and is probably through two items while I'm sitting at 1 and a half due to my absurd item costs. They're going to rip through my team and then they're gonna murder me because there is no way I can 1v5 them. I cant even 1v1 unless they grossly mess up.
Your account says you're SIlver V and have a whopping 39% win with Tristana, and none of your scores look like a 1 million mastery score.... or the scores of someone smurfing her who has 1 million mastery...... _**This post is a meme.**_ And I've learned that arguing with memes is pointless :)
: We're witnessing the birth of the new role meta
Double Jungle just has too many negative externalities on a team You simply cannot gold fast enough. Can't level fast enough. Trust me. I've had enough support trolls try to grief/stalk and steal camps. The fact jungle XP is not shared prevents this from ever being a possibility. And then they begin leeching lanes, which puts the lanes behind relative, in both XP and gold, making everyone weaker on one team. Jungle meta made sense. Less of a burden on one laner. Double jungle meta makes no sense. Heavy burden not only on the core jungler, but also on the other laners, because one of the junglers cannot XP otherwise. Gold funneling works because XP is shared. Double Jungle does not.
: > [{quoted}](name=BigBellBrute,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9TdvEcrm,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-06-25T22:21:06.270+0000) > > Except of course ADCs. They whined when they were adjusted because they could out assassin assassins. Ahhh the classic,"marksmen were bursting harder than asassins" while ignoring specific circumstances like how fed they were, how easy they are to burst, and how late game it was. And of course, the complete ignoring of how badly they were gutted. Seriously, ADC mains have complained twice in 8 seasons and it was both during times where it was well deserved. Bruiser and mage mains whine every. Goddamn. Season. Even when all of their picks are viable and have decent item choices and a selection of roles to play. Still not good enough. Honestly, bruiser and mage mains are the entitled ones. They have access to top, mid, and jungle in that they can be played viably in all of these lanes but evey single one is like,"OMG, marksmen have one lane all to themselves, the only lane they can go to because we dont like them in our lane, how horrible. We demand that lane because having three fourths of the map isn't enough. We need to have access to the entirety of the map and adcs should have access to none of it. How dare crit adcs want to be solo laners and come mid; get back bot with your "slave" who actually has all the impact and power in lane. You dont need agency or lane diversity because you *have bot* and we don't. Waaaaah. And while we're at it, rito our champs suck, pls buff them. Waaaah." Literally every mage and bruiser main for seasons. I can find millions of threads of bruiser and mage mains whining about their champions and their roles before 8.11. But marksmen are entitled for wanting equality for their champions.
There are at least 3 adcs who do not need fed to assassinate: {{champion:222}} : Her range carries her even when behind. As long as she has a cc wall of allies in front of her, she is the most Pentakill friendly champ in the game. {{champion:18}} Can assassinate before she's even fed. All being fed does for her is increase the HP by which she survives and how many times she can reset. (She can burst ~2100 HP with just a {{item:3153}} early game) {{champion:133}} Although an extremely low Bot pick, she has an insanely unchecked in rate in ALL roles of 73% + once she has 2 items. She is one of the easiest adcs to assassinate with, has overcapping damage in just 2 abilities, and can now mark on EVERY skill where she used to be able to only Mark on one, and her passive. This creates 3 mark procs in a matter of about 2 seconds, and she builds Lethality to boost, and has the fastest map travel in the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9TdvEcrm,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-25T21:39:07.950+0000) > > Thank god. Literally the only reason I'm coming back to try this game again is that ADCs hopefully got put in their place. > > Freaking adc mains you all get one patch where you're finally optional like literally everyone else and you throw a fit. Typical. I mean, mages/bruisers never stop whining so who is the real baby here? I've never heard a whiner group of players than mage and bruiser players.
My only complaint with mages is their damage executions in the fast meta result in far more "support like" kdas. Morgana used to be a champ who could 20/4/18 a game. Now she's lucky to 5/2/25 a game. The damage is there, but the Auto attack meta damage gets reliably applied at the end of an engagement, almost always awarding the AD's the kill. In this new Bounty system that can be 2000-3000 lost gold per game. I can't pull a 20k Gold game on a mage anymore. The Talon or Zed or Warwick I'm teamed with gets all the kills.
: And you won with Ryze, Khazix, Morde, Poppy, and Blitz. Nice!
Banning really is a PITA atm though. My teams ban my own champs..... after I've pre-selected them. And are First Pick. So then I have to scare them with Mage junglers. And then carry them anyways... Just not enough bans atm. Hopefully 8.13 helps..... but I guarantee if {{champion:23}} isn't banned he's going to be a 15-30% Pick rate. Dunno why they are shaving 2 seconds off his Spin as a whole. He's already almost impossible to get away from when fed (which is any 15+ minute game). Now he's just gonna laugh when people play mechanically correct and still get eaten. And then there's gonna be {{champion:18}} buff..... when she already can push 20 kill games and really wasn't affected by the crit rate nerfs... Her E is going to lead to her being a 10% pick again and every game is gonna be Tristana resets again.... Jinx might get in there too with her Q damage no critting and W getting buffed (once again!). One of those no hope once 2/0 champs due to insane Q range. (I predict a nerf after 8.13 to "balance out") And Yi changes aren't going to really take him off that list except perhaps parts of the {{item:3124}} nerf..... which doesn't address why it's OP on him. ------------- What really scares me though is..... they're dropping Pyke's HP by 10-170. WTF. On a champ that can't gain HP? Even if they are improving his resist scaling/armor, that all falls away hard after lethality/penetration enters the picture.... and some champs can just eat 2300 max HP anyways. And the Ult changes are a wash until 250 + AD, so good luck actually getting better results out of the Ult :S. E change is also a joke until later. So he gains more damage later, but dies before he can apply it? Gonna be a fun meta :S.
Nenthos (NA)
: The example you used does not make the slightest bit of sense. 1. These are the people developing the game so they know the in's and outs by building things from the ground up 2. You don't need to think of every variable to fix a problem if it occurs, sure it may be more ambitious then it seems but no where close to the realm of "complexity" of millions of equations your implying, literally every other modern video game ever is more "complex" than chess and the devs of them don't have problems fixing their freaking game. 3. It's a team full of people who work 6-8 hours a day, no excuse. Don't know how you came up with something so baffling off the mark.
Except it is. When balancing a champion, you have to think about their potential interactions with other champions. And then you have to think about their interactions with combinations of 5 of those champions on the same team. And then you have to think about interactions that specifically occur at different places on a map which have heavy influences on game outcomes (infernal drake dominance, Barons, different tiered turrets/lanes/Inhibitors, Red bluff, Blue buff) And then you have to think about champion average interactions with Bounties which changes how they gold increase (especially important with snowballing assassins or no kill supports on when and how quickly they can buy items) And then you have to think about how Summoner spells impact specific champs, because they do not help each champ equally.... And then you have to look at each rune versus each champion, and see how they impact those champions (like Teemo and Comet or Aery) And then you have to look at how each item affects each champions in what way. --------- What this comes down to is your definition of "fixing" or "balancing." In reality, what you are thinking of as fixing is a Hawkish perspective on prohibiting something that impedes YOUR (specifically YOU) fun and viability. But that's not really "fixing" anything or even balancing. And no game is good at balancing or fixing. If anything, Riot is ahead of the curb there. Their game's decline rate is infinitesimal compared to other modern games, their sales exploded to rates unseen by any other modern game, and their innovation and marketing is FAR more active than other games. Everything you see on this website is a form of marketing. New champs are marketing. etc. Most games begin a major (13-20%) annual decline per year after their first month. League's has been about 3-5% annually... at least by search rates. By Revenue, they've been exploding, rising, and concurrent player counts were on the increase at least until 2016 (we don't know 2018 numbers yet). Most games do not have post release marketing in large amounts either. They are built to earn spenders and burners. And then move on to the next game. _** If you're going to cite games which "fix problems" actually cite them. I know of many who attempt to try, but end up creating far more damning problems, and often don't actually fix the problem.**_ Unless the problem is a Glitch or Bug, most attempts to solve problems are not scientific. The live release is the only real way to gain statistics on the "fix" and see if it actually was one. And like with League, that's always an ongoing process. League has a major advantage in dealing with this though:) 1) Third party nonassociated sites have taken to tracking and creating statistics which players and Riot can use to bring attention to major abnormalities (minor abnormalities can often be just attributed to player base collective decision making) 2) Riot has Loader texts, selections as stock data to use without extensively datamining the game. This reduces the burden of interpreting data in behavior, champ selection, popularity, bans, etc. 3) Riot has a finite set of actions players are allowed to make in game, which helps make their in house stats more retrievable. 4) They have the PBE (A lot of games do have a Beta server, so this isn't entirely unique, but they do update it more frequently and often than the vast majority of other games, and they do know how to read the data). ---------------------------------------------------- I heavily suggest you take a semester, go to college, and take a class in the Economics department called "Game Theory." It's the science of determining the best outcomes for decision making. It applies to everything you do, everything you have done to you, and likewise, what a game does as well (life is a series of games)
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: Omg, seriously? The fking jungle XP is the worst which enable gold funneling because the enemy jungler will be 2 lvls above yours with free scuttle access If you cant see that's a problem ...
[img]https://i.imgur.com/6DqzDKL.png[/img] This is how jungle XP breaks down.... or rather how it did before they added 10 XP back to Wraiths/Gromp. I'm too lazy to redraw it for that. But you'll notice Krugs XP explodes over scuttles all day long. It isn't until the 3rd of 4th clear where scuttle XP beats a regular camp, and even then Krugs beat it by far. Gold also follows the same rules with Scuttle. A Krugs camp = 161 Gold level 2. A Scuttler = 70 Gold level 2. That's a 91 gold difference. Late game, Scuttle gold gets up to 140 Gold, so the math does begin to favor taking them. I ding level 6 right after my mids do as a jungler. I dunno about you. I'm level 6 on Pyke when my bot lane is level 4-5.
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cH2BzeEl,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-25T07:58:10.037+0000) > > You responded to yourself? > > I'm Diamond II. I only play ranked. Provide op.gg please. The account you're posting from was Silver season 7 and had 119 games on Eve with 41% win rate. Call me skeptical Also, i know you're lying because you would be really really easy to find on lolalytics if you weren't
That Eve win rate was down at 13% at one point lol. It's called champ rework during a season it wasn't meant for, "honey." Evelynn on old runes couldn't even heal at Drake or Baron. Baron would 3 shot her, and none of her items actually had sustain. She only performed moderately at killing champs, because that was the part of her kit that was semi indifferent to bad teams. You could be a good killer, but if you didn't have a good team, that's all you could do. That, and Silver/Gold was riddled in October with professional Masters Boosters selling boosting services to help people get to gold - plat. Hard to jungle an out of meta Eve when you have an even high smurf {{champion:59}} + {{champion:91}} duo + a top {{champion:58}} invading your jungle permanently from level 1 while your own team never leaves lane... The account was only played for 3 months. My main is 5 years old. My other smurf is Gold I Kind of sad when the only argument you can ever propose to my comments is "Hur Dur" Elo ...... Elo .... Elo.....
: > [{quoted}](name=Towboat421,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cH2BzeEl,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-06-25T06:28:10.213+0000) > > So is this your smurf account or are you making shit up because you don't have any recent game like you described and your unranked so i will be taking your input with a few dashes of salt. Jungling has been railroaded into having the early game monsters, your shacos, your graves, your xins who can gank and trade early with enemies, that was and has been the complaint people have had with the changes it reinforced the way jungle was reducing the number of characters who can be picked *reliably* . Having to select from a small pool of viable junglers isn't fun especially when some of them are just tedious to play with and against.
You responded to yourself? I'm Diamond II. I only play ranked.
: I still think the jungle changes were a massive mistake
It. Didn't. Make. Jungling. Difficult. At. ALL. It actually made it EASIER. {{item:1039}} gained 10 heals per duration, and 10 more burn. BOTH jungle items gained 30 XP from large monsters. Krugs gained massive XP on the small and mediums and a smaller first clear XP penalty. My current Main junglers are {{champion:143}} and {{champion:555}} and sometimes {{champion:28}} . I'm winning over 75% of those games. I really don't understand why people are incapable of adapting to the jungle. You guys are so tunneled on Scuttle..... which doesn't even give the best XP/Gold until late game. It's the big shiny lure that takes you away from the fundamentals. And yes. I outjungle all these: {{champion:5}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:120}} I typically ban {{champion:141}} ..... and not because I can't handle him, but because I don't like how many times he can dodge my ults with his R. The only real challenges are {{champion:164}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:62}}
: What part of them getting 100% gold value at 25 minutes don't you understand? This means that on the first wave, they get half value. By around 13 minutes they will be getting 75% value from minions and by 25 minutes they will be getting full gold value just like everyone else. All this change would do is make it so things like the Taric/Yi strategy no longer work because towards the beginning of the game Yi will be wasting gold by taking the CS. This doesn't stop him from split pushing after laning phase is over though. They could also change it so the time decreases for each tower your team loses. This was a base suggestion. More things can be added to it to keep things fair in a losing game.
Most games are over by 25 minutes, especially ones where you punish one role like that. You can try to sell the idea all you want, but the fact is.... You're basically asking one role to sometimes get shut down entirely because of the state of the game. You can't honestly tell me you've never jungled when Bot or top gives up a 6 minute turret..... Because you "can't." Once a laner does that, the only option is to prevent lane pushes and try to get some gold in the waves. You don't HAVE a jungle to farm. And you're basically saying..... even if you do prevent those wave pushes, you're going to be thousands of gold behind the laners who for some reason or another aren't killing the waves (like chasing kills, dying, being distracted and believing pushing is more important than defending the split push...) You're saying punish legitimate healthy play 10 times to punish unhealthy gold padding stat 1 time. Good luck playing {{champion:28}} ever again if this got implemented, because as much as she sucks at it.... if she loses her jungle, She's GOING to be lane farming..... with her high cooldown Q and "Must go into demon form to proc right" E.
: see, if they were actually good at their job, they fix what's enabling every gold funneling strat unfortunately, they aren't so we get this.
I'd love to know how you think they should play 5th dimensional chess and solve this issue. Too many variables. Too many possible universes of outcomes to calculate. Too many possible constants from which to originate decision trees. Not even joking. Chess has some "estimated" 34 million outcomes, but that's excluding repetitive trees and repeat actions. It's closer to infinite. And LoL is far more complicated than Chess. To expect ANY team to balance a game this complicated is what's truly ignorant. They can calculate one or two possible culprits within ambiguous proximity and make a shot in the dark. I mean.... there are at least 80 champs Taric alone would "Gold Funnel" for. it's not Yi exclusive... Then you have to look at Yi and his other synergies (someone mentioned {{champion:10}} ) Then you have to look at Yi's Synergistic partners and then look at their synergies with other champs. --------------- But then you kind of have to ask.... what's so unhealthy about this strategy? Most of the champs involved are sink or swim champs, and often, if they sink, they are forced to play a support role if they ever want a chance of winning. Just look at Udyr. If Udyr doesn't get those early game 5-6 kill snowballs, what happens? Udyr Split pushes the rest of the game and makes attempts to peel team chasers. He doesn't transform into a carry if he didn't start out as one. I have tons of times on Pyke where a team feeds, and I can't legitimately get into a carry role, because they have fed tanks/lots of damage, so I become a support. If they really kill this behavior, it's going to lead to even faster snowballs, where champs feel useless even earlier.
: Here is what they need to do. Make it so you get 50% gold value from minions if you have a jungle item that scales up to 100% at 25 minutes. This makes it so junglers taking minions get very little value out of it early game but champions like Tryndamere, Udyr, and Trundle can still function as split pushers later on in the game.
Oh but laners get full jungle gold value? Right........ You have no idea how often laners take over jungle clear and have a FAR easier time of it than the jungler because they are crit based/higher attack speed, and ranged. And what about when an enemy jungler takes over jungler because a lane collapsed? Oh right... you're advocating the suppressed jungler not having farm for the entire rest of the game? Freelo snowball anyone?
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: The problem is the new dumb jungle that enables this, because it makes the gold funneling a great way to surpass the other jungler
wtf are you even calling gold funneling? Camping Scuttlers? I'm sorry but I see that as backfiring: 1) I as the jungler time those scuttles and am there on spawn to kill it Or.... 2) Champs show up in attempts to steal the scuttle... and I'm waiting for them, and kill them. Early game Scuttles are the worst GOLD of the jungle and they are only the third best XP camp. You really need to remember Krugs....
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: So Meddler thinks gold funneling will be fixed by nerfing nunu and taric
You do realize these strategies have always been viable, but only now are being explored? I've been {{champion:89}} and {{champion:497}} jungling since before Season 7. Although.... I didn't call it "Gold Funnelling." I just thought of it as a CC support's best role..... being mobile and surprising rather than stuck in a linear lane where they can be predicted. I mean..... Rakan has perfectly safe Drakes and after I have 5 kills/assists, I also have perfectly safe drakes on Leona. The one thing that ruins these engage supports is their predictable nature. They need to be somewhere else on the map to roam. I'm sure I could find some 300-400 champ combos that are just as effective as the combos you are complaining about at doing the same thing.
: If marksmen are still completely viable?
The honest answer is some adcs are still playing. Others are not via their ideals. But the bruisers are mostly not ex ADCs. They are tops/mids/jungs trying to fill the role with off meta picks because they heard they can. I haven't had a single off meta pick other than {{champion:115}} perform well early game. 99% of the others tend to hyper feed early, even if some do come back late via brute force. They generally create more problems for a team than a weak adc. For example, 2 days ago, I had a {{champion:82}} {{champion:106}} bot. By level 6 they had fed an {{champion:81}} 10/0. They kept.... going in on what they truly believed would be a kill engage...... and then Ex would E away, punish them, and sometimes their jungler would show up mid fight too. Morde was like 0/4 and Voli was 0/6. Naturally, the rest of my team inherited that fed Ez and his support. They began popping people like grapes. Ofc, Morde came back to a point where he could 1v3 their team after he had {{item:3116}} and recovered himself to an 22/11 score. But in the meantime, as a {{champion:555}} jungler, I couldn't even enter the game because they fed so fast. I lost my drakes. I couldn't gank Ez because he was just shredding. His support was also always with him. And he was roaming, taking all the other lanes, and my support was on a path to feed 0/16/3 (he really wanted us to lose). So.... I just kept farming and trying to push lanes a bit. I ended game 5/8/7 because I just couldn't exist vs 3000 damage per second champs with a champ that caps at 2471. They also had a Yi. I normally have less than 3 deaths so that really ticked me off. We didn't win because of any skilled play. We won because Morde can late game game 1v3. But what it Ez and Yi had ended early? They created more problems than they helped. And that's what a lot of these off metas are doing: feeding early, comebacks later. It leads to a disproportionate amount of losses. ------------------ There's also tons of adcs that are still viable. They just don't know it. It's been 3 years since an adc has had to build life steal, and they obviously didn't take the hint when Riot lowered their cost by 200g in the same patch as the crit items went up.... {{item:3153}} or {{item:3072}} used to be the core adc item, not Crit items. And then there are adcs who don't even build like that like: {{champion:42}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:110}} all have non crit item starts..... The only crit based adcs that were in the current meta who exclusively built crit were {{champion:22}} {{champion:51}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:15}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:29}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:498}} Some of the first list did build some crit items, but it was mostly for features like {{item:3085}} for the multi shot. or to round out some late game damage. It was not the core first item....
: > [{quoted}](name=Phieldworker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xb6PEPOs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-24T06:00:06.025+0000) > > I agree with you. For me I like how in laning he’s more of an engager but then he transforms into a more flanker assassin later. And if you play him alright he’s not weak but he can’t just blast through everyone without any thought. I agree with what you said but I also like to grab Mobi boots and roam mid to setup kills across the map. He's a really good ganker.
Imo Pyke doesn't need Mobis and they lead to about 5-6 more deaths per game because they drastically hinder his exit of fight move speed, and overall survivability. Most games have an insane need for {{item:3111}} or {{item:3047}} ..... or he pops like a grape.
: Thoughts on Pyke?
He's about to get a buff vs some teams, nerf vs others. Atm on the docket: Increase Armor/Resist growth by 1/.75 per level. Decrease HP growth by 10 per level (170 less HP at 18..... Ouch). E Damage ratio up from 80% to 100% (they tried 110% and deemed it too high) BUT E Base damage down about 20 at level 5 (If you are running an AD build, this is good. If you are running a tank build this is more of a wash) R AD Ratio up to 100% from 80% (I don't know if this is still in there). In other words... a few QoL adjustments and a potentially dangerous lowering of his HP which means teams who rush penetration are going to eat him faster....... in exchange for a little more damage on a long cooldown skill, and a slight increase in R thresholds. I like the R threshold thing because there are so many times you are just 15 points of HP from being in an execute threshold, but the HP lowering probably means he's going to die before he even executes the R. That really scares me vs Conquerer teams.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Looks like i was unclear in my post. I myself am not using aftershock. I run Frozen Augmentation and {{item:3153}} going into item builds that give me damage and uptime in team fights. My first power spike comes from the completion of {{item:3144}} being a 60% aoe 5 second slow on demand that I can use with W to set up full duration CC and displacement which provides my teammates the opportunity's to do their full spell rotations, and to KS with my R for gold advantage any time I can. You are correct that I do like to run {{item:3155}} as its everything pyke wants in a item vs ap teams.
I just don't run into many occasions where slows are relevant to me..... since Q itself is a slow, so I don't need it as much. If I have no need to pull, I just go up, Q someone and E them on W. Ofc that's usually mid/late game, where cooldowns are less of a liability.
Anin777 (EUW)
: New money is probably the most honest reason. But you can't prove it helps retain players. Infact you could argue the opposite. Everytime a champ is released, there's a board/reddit post detailing problems. For example, when Zoe got released, so many people said they'd stop playing until the champ was hotfixed. And what niche is left to fill? Pretty much every single one has been filled by now. We don't need complexity. We need balance. People want to play a game that feels fun and rewarding. Season 5 for example was fun to play not because of new champs but because the game was fun to play. You felt good winning OR losing for the most part because you actually stood a chance. New champ hype dies after a week or 2 but good gameplay is talked about for seasons.
It's not about Hype. It's about... The desire of everyone to find their one trick. People get bored with stale old champions and their brain begins to supply less dopamine for every bit of enjoyment they receive from playing vs and picking their favorite champs. They begin to get disillusioned with the champs that define them the best, and search for new tricks. If the champions hits its mark, it behaves like a drug. It's not just about hype. It's about addiction.
Anin777 (EUW)
: Do we actually need more champs?
New champs are part of what retains players. new patterns. new niches, new complexity. So yes. Oh. and they make new money.
: Literally... invincible! lol
Tbh...... I am maining him right now.... and he usually is.... but it's not because of tankiness lol. It's because I build to get him out of fights and refuse to go where there are no wards, because I know if I run into an enemy waiting in a bush, I'm dead in a few skills. Just had a nonmeta {{champion:106}} {{champion:82}} Bot lane hard feed a {{champion:81}} 12/0 in lane, and was chased around my jung for the first 6 levels by a {{champion:11}} who also got fed by bot. That gave..... I more or less couldn't get away much at all. If I went in at all to help teams, they sure as hell didn't help me. If I went after Ez, by the time he was near execute range, his team would arrive and make me uncomfortable. And I just couldn't run before Ez killed me before I procced the heal. There wasn't a build choice I could have taken that would have helped. So..... I just played passive and pushed lanes. Ended 5/8/7 but still won. Normally I'm closer to 13/1/12 or so. That team would have obliterated a Resolve based Pyke even more.
: Pike is a good meme, but when is he getting balanced?
His Health prevents him from ever being played as a tank.
Zerenza (NA)
: Off tank aftershock is not an assassin build, Riot is currently including Buffs to pyke to prevent him from going that build. Using that build all your doing is taking advantage of the fact he can't build HP and using it to get a bunch of resistance, like sure it's effective but it is not what he was initially designed to do. What he was designed to do was allow an assassin, with an assassin build, to go botlane and be successful but what you said further proves my point that it's not possible without removing what he was intended to do in the first place. As i said, he can't function as an assassin in botlane because your forced to take runes that don't compliment the playstyle and forced to not be able to do what an assassin does because of build as well. Which kind of ruins the whole point of having an assassin, based on what you said he might as well be a tank because that's what your using him for. Side note: Evelynn and Ekko have SUSTAIN PATTERNS, but the rest of their kits are are entirely revolving around assassinating, Pyke was given a Stun and a Pull along with Sustain, sure Ekko has a stun but landing it is fucking hard, sure Evelynn has a charm but she actually NEEDS it to kill people. Pyke on the otherhand needed the tools to be a support, hence his restore passive since he has to go in, but he needed CC to make fighting in 2v2's more useful, hence his E and Q, he also needed the Q to be a good catcher in bot lane similar to Thresh. But incase you didn't know, most assassins don't have any CC, because it makes them too strong, unless their specifically designed to play around that CC(Evelynn, Ahri, Leblance) or the CC is incredibly hard to hit(Ekko) it makes them overbearing to not make pyke overbearing with the CC he needed to support, his ability to assassinate suffered horrendously. Second Side Note: Evelynn pays for her hard CC and Camo by having no Mobility and needing to hit the CC(atleast early) to kill someone. Ekko pay's for his Stun and his Heal by only having 2 easy to land abilities that deal damage, requiring him to land his stun to get a really quick kill, or chase people down to get a slower one.
Aftershock scales with AD now (15%), so it's not actually not an offensive build. And the reason he goes Aftershock is because not only does it add Armor/Resist, it also adds HP. No. Not HP that's useable as HP. But HP that turns into AD. At a minimum, taking resolve adds 12.5 AD. More than most Domination builds do. And Overgrowth, Crystalis ALSO add AD, and if your secondary is Inspiration, it's even more AD from HP. For Pyke the AD scaling for both trees is similar. Pyke's kit does NOT behave like other assassins. You will almost never get a 100-0 Kill off Pyke the way you can with the others. You have to dance around targets and chip them lower. Sometimes this means literally staying back and doing nothing but taunting a team with Q's. If the opposing team has 3 tanks, it's not even worth trying to do anything but support with Pyke, even if you are Jungler/Mid/Top with him. Now. Mid - Late game I can absolutely roll 1v1 with a Pyke. But that's because I don't build the same as most Pykes (like Kai Guy). Kai is not building him as a tank. He's using Aftershock and Conditioning with items like {{item:3156}} to increase their gold value. That being said, I'm Diamond I and I Phase Rush Pyke.
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Azadethe

Level 54 (NA)
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