Hópe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vUg5vif0,comment-id=0012000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-20T17:31:55.528+0000) > > They don't have too much of something. They average lower damage than everyone, and there are 6 champs who literally outheal the healers. Their primary sticking points are the CC. But Mages outperform most actual supports as CC spammers hence why Bot is dominated by Brand and Vel Koz. > > If a Support is Bad, they generally trail the #4 player on their team by some 3-4k Gold. That's HUGE! If they are GOOD supports, they match other team players in gold. > > Their kits have less AD/AP scaling than other champs, less defenses, etc. > > You need to accept that every player has to have a role. _**For your first point**_ is ''they average lower damage than everyone'' Of course, because most supports are utility built ( Braum, Janna, Soraka, Zilean, Alistar etc ) The class as a whole **Is obviously going to average lower damage ** but then you get the Brand support, Sona ( before nerfs ) , Zyra, Thresh and for some reason you click ''stats'' at the end of the game and see that they've actually out damaged your fucking mid laner. Supports are put in a lane against a target who remains squishy ( Example, Tristana is never going to build MR in lane ) But Brand with frostfang and sorc boots will 100-0 the Tristana so fast, meanwhile mid resistances are built way more often. _**For your second point **_ '' There are 6 champs who literally outheal the healers'', Who? Nobody out heals Soraka. Jannas R is an AOE heal, i do not know what you're talking about. **_For your third point_** ''Their kits have less AD/AP scaling than other champs'' And to make up for this, they have the cheapest items in the game and a lot of strength is given in the form of item actives. Frost queens claim is really.. really cheap.. Gives CDR,mana regen, gold income , slow active and AP. Then you have ardent sensor doing the same, AP, Mana regen, CDR and beautiful passive ( 8% movement speed included in that ) **_For your fourth point _** ''You need to accept that every player has to have a role'' Yes, every player does need to have a role, but some of those roles are overbearing. Supports right now, are OVERBEARING. I mean no disrespect when I say this but i see your match history, you obviously main support. So i sense some sort of bias because you're playing a whole bunch of Zyra yet wont admit that you can practically win lane for your adc. And some of your games you have more damage THAN YOUR MID LANER.
Vlad, Nasus, Yorick, Garen, Warwick, Swain, all outheal healers. Trundle could get in there too. Their actives are not strong, and they are really vulnerable points. A Nami who builds actives can't outrun ANYONE, and generally runs the risk of a 0/12 game The champs you are saying should build actives usually have kits that suffer if they do. Zyra outdamages the mid because she still builds MAGE items! Btw; I Queue "Fill." I also Jungle main, can mid, can top, but Adc is iffy. P.S Stop calling Brand a Support. He's a secondary Mid who just happens to get picked as support because people who want to carry sometimes are stuck in Support.
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vUg5vif0,comment-id=00180000,timestamp=2018-01-20T16:48:14.606+0000) > > Nah. {{champion:143}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:99}} All beat the snot out of a Leona. Alistar is tougher..... you're better off bringing an on hit support like {{champion:117}} and buying an Executioner Blade, or perhaps a {{champion:37}} > > I can beat Alistar with a Zyra, but it's tedious. I can dominate him with Nami. They only do if you really know how to play them and against a good Leona there isn't much you can do except wait for jungle help. Zyra is doing absolutely shitty right now but I'm sure a really really good Zyra can zone the crap out of a Leo. Problem is she's very difficult to play right. Annie, Nami, Lux can poke a Leo but once Leo hits 6 she has a lot more power than they do, and if she lands her ult it's over. Morg is probably the best counter with her spell shield and Taric is a pretty good counter too Sona is out of the question. They nerfed her to shit. She went from being 1st in supports to like 20th...And she was never a good counter to Leo.
Zyra isn't hard to play. Once you learn NOT to hit minions when proccing plants, she's easy. If you Q plants behind minions that are closer to champs, they will always attack the champs. They effectively give her a 1500 Range, which is gargantuan. Everything else is point and click and placing your ult right. Easy champ. Just don't stand still and take hits. I can destroy Leona on all of the three you mentioned; particularly Nami. If she Zeniths, Bubble her, and walk away before she can Q. Not hard. If she ults, bubble her path so it's wasted and she can't follow up. The only reason Leona ever gives them a problem is because a lot of Namis think of where Leona is, not where she will be. They think her E is an instant death, and that it somehow stops them from acting. It's only a .5 sec root. The problem is it's followed up by a 1 sec stun, and if you can prevent that stun, she just blew her kit and put herself in a compromised situation. There's only one real combo where Leona is Dangerous to a Nami, and that's Jhin, and usually only if they are a duo. Jhin can follow up and time his shot with her Root, and secure the followup stun.
Hópe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vUg5vif0,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-01-20T16:49:30.333+0000) > > Support is not overtuned. They are just viable now. The only major buff supports got was an access to Gold. ''They are just viable now, they got access to gold'' Yes thats what overtuned is. Too much of something
They don't have too much of something. They average lower damage than everyone, and there are 6 champs who literally outheal the healers. Their primary sticking points are the CC. But Mages outperform most actual supports as CC spammers hence why Bot is dominated by Brand and Vel Koz. If a Support is Bad, they generally trail the #4 player on their team by some 3-4k Gold. That's HUGE! If they are GOOD supports, they match other team players in gold. Their kits have less AD/AP scaling than other champs, less defenses, etc. You need to accept that every player has to have a role.
: > [{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vUg5vif0,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-01-20T07:37:24.890+0000) > > the better irony is how much boards hated how snowbally botlane is but glorified mages and tanks as supports, who *enforced* the snowball down there > > but better keep on blaming adcs because its clearly their fault ;-) Ehh better than the ardent censer meta
Mages were common even during what you're calling the Censer meta. In Season 7 Mages made up 53% of all support play, and maintained 52%+ Win rates at it. Brand and Vel Koz are especially toxic, because when they don't have to maintain a lane they just zone everyone else out. I know everyone rages at Censer, but I was pulling 70% win rates with it being my 3rd or 4th item. It's not as powerful as a first item {{item:3025}} because the CDR matter more to supports than the boosts from a Censer. Adcs can't execute support, support heals, has good mana source, and adcs can't escape because of the slow field. Furthermore Iceborne coupled well with the {{item:3114}} To get VERY early 40% CDR, which controlled the game faster than the fact you could add damage to the adc.
AIIan (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Meriipu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vUg5vif0,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-01-20T07:58:45.076+0000) > > So I take it this is another one of those support circlejerks patting eachother on the pack and pretending it is never the supports fault and that everything good that happens bot and ingame is because of them? > {{sticker:sg-lulu}} As an ADC main, I can confirm that while most of the time the botlane is a two man job, a particularly good / horrible support WILL make or break your lane automatically. By comparison, a bad adc can totally be carried by the support and a good adc can be hindered significiantly by the opposing support, but there's no way around a god-like Leona that will screw you at every opportunity or a sitting duck that turns your lane into a 1vs2 from behind. It's even worse out of the laning phase. You can be the best Jhin in the world and still get 100-0 instantly by a Talon or Rengar out of stealth, but a Nautilus who knows how to peel for the carry of the team WILL win the game unless you make multiple tactical mistakes.
omfg I can relate. Whenever I'm NOT support, I generally somehow get a support who stands behind me as adc, and doesn't skill at all. no harass, no farm supplement. They basically leech the lane XP and afk. 1v2 lanes are annoying when you don't main adc. When I Support, I'm active, harassing, keeping my gold going, recalling, roaming, timing/signalling drakes etc. If I deem an adc a bad one, I just give the other team the lane and go help mid and top snowball as well as the jungler. Better to be a second jungler than to rely on a trash adc whose never going to get anywhere or a jungler who never ganks bot once in the first 15 minutes of the game.
Hópe (NA)
: I've been saying this for months now, Support is 100% overtuned and the reason adcs are adcs right now. Their items are so cheap and so freaking strong that other lanes are using them right now.
Support is not overtuned. They are just viable now. The only major buff supports got was an access to Gold.
: This is 100% absolutely true. And if the enemy support is {{champion:89}} or {{champion:12}} you will not win unless you bring {{champion:44}} or {{champion:40}}
Nah. {{champion:143}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:99}} All beat the snot out of a Leona. Alistar is tougher..... you're better off bringing an on hit support like {{champion:117}} and buying an Executioner Blade, or perhaps a {{champion:37}} I can beat Alistar with a Zyra, but it's tedious. I can dominate him with Nami.
Shylien (NA)
: wanna know a secret: it's not better botlane wins, it's better support wins.
The only real buff Supports got was Gold providing items. But yes, that was enough to become relevant. I rarely finish a game with less gold than my adc. Their inherent kits weren't really buffed, and the newer items while neat, were not the cause of support relevance. It's the ability to gain gold. Something personally I hate about bot lane though, that still makes an adc important: Support XP is derived from whether ADC gets their CS or not. A Bad ADC = 18 EXP per minion to the support. A Good ADC = 36 EXP per Minion to the support. That's huge, and I can't tell you how many people complain when bot fails and when support tries to defend and say it's not their fault.... Team points out they are behind on levels too. This mechanic is entirely why.... and that sucks. But..... if Support got fair XP from a bad ADC, it's likely Supports would be pretty competitive.
: 0 armor tanks are getting deleted by Zed. Tanks COUNTER assassins and burst mages, and if you stack armor, surprise surprise, you aren't getting deleted by an AD assassin who builds lethality.
Zed built correctly drops a 400 Armor champ to 46 Armor, and his ult calculates pre mitigation (including armor reduction). One chain of attacks from Zed can KO a tank who is at 85% HP when built. He might struggle to 1 combo a 100% HP tank, but he has no problems at all deleting a 4000 HP max 85% tank. This is especially true if there is a Jhin in the game, because Zed's ult bonus permanent AD gets inflated.
Häxel (EUW)
: You talked about Tanksupports prior. So all tanksupports run secondary Inspiration or already Inspiration primary and resolve secondary. Then there is also Domination secondary for zombie ward or ghost poro for example. Keep in mind that next patch with the Aftershockchanges Sightstone will be just na questreward and no longer be able to purchase early, which can make Dominationpath even more important (even if there are also Zombiewardnerfs). If Tanksupports run Sorcery secondary they would get far less health as from Resolve/Inspiration or Insp/Res. And most times while they run that they taked Nullifying Orb and Scorch, rarly Transendence. But to get what Ap or BONUS Ad Tankupports would get beside the Sorcery or Domination Bonus? None of them builds Ad or Ap. Only {{champion:412}} gets Ap from his passive (and thats a Champion that many other Runes suit good too). Transcendence just gives at 40% cdr ratios. Even if you would reach this it would already be total lategame. So yea, Supports lost huge amount of EarlyGame damage by that in exchange for more Tankyness. And thank you Riot for that. Op said he wanted a more defensiv Keystone like CoC and even if this Aftershockrune will still have Damage it is now far more for being Tanky in Early Game as for making much Damage. And i would say it is ok if Tanks can tan but deal not so much damage. The resistances can hold extra Damage in an Engage, but the Damage no longer will Autowin you vs an Ap Support. Other Aftershockusers the same: Tanks not realy buy Ap or Ad. You see maybe a {{champion:32}} , {{champion:31}} or {{champion:3}} with 1, 2 ap items, but thats it (if they would buy Full Ap probably Aftershock wouldn't even be their keystone).
1) you talk as if somehow Inspiration is a must pick, when it's not. I never take it except on Zoe. 2) Ward Runes are not always the best picks, and in fact usually aren't. 3) Most Supports benefit more from main treeing Resolve, and the secondary is miscellaneous 4) I have 40% CDR by 10 minutes when i play support (granted I don't play many TANK supports). 5) The conversation was never exclusively supports. 6) the defense added is much bigger and much earlier. 7) the damage loss was tiny early. 3.5% to 3% is not Much..... On a level 4 Thresh, that's : New: 29.411 + 30.435 = 60 Damage Aftershock Old: 57.647 + 36.435 = 94.082 Damage Aftershock. That's the initial damage. However: 1 more damage per base new AP 1 more damage per 15 Souls. AND.... level 4 = 28 + 78 Armor = 106 Armor level 4 32.1 + 78 Magic resist = 110 Magic Resist Level 4 On the Old Aftershock, this was: (28 + 20) * 122% = 58.56 Armor (32.1 + 20) * 122% = 63.56 Magic Resist So..... you lost about 30 damage early game per engage, but gained 47.44 Armor and 46.44 Magic Resist. Which impacts the fight more? the 30 damage? Or the additional ~ 17% damage reduction to BOTH damage sources that you get? And that's on a champ that doesn't magnify the defense. ({{champion:89}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:12}} will be able to gain even more defense, and they all can build {{item:3025}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3110}} to gain AP) I jungle {{champion:89}} and easily pull 340 AP, btw.
: But they don't need MR. I explained that to you. Tanks are already extremely resistant to being bursted down, and for sustained magic damage, we have an item dedicated to squashing that: {{item:3194}} . The change doesn't boost tanks more than the old, I just explained how 333 armor isn't that hard to reach for the majority of popular tanks. Rammus doubled the old Aftershock bonus as well.
Say that to Armor tanks who get Deleted by Veigar or Zed.
: Ramus has a 90% armor amp and a 45% MR amp on his Defensive Ball Curl. Malphite easily eclipses 333 armor by 20 minutes. Sejuani is a powerful tank as well, you shouldn't just be dismissing her because she's an example that proves my point. And, in fact, Rammus sprang up to the top of the charts specifically because he's so damn powerful with Aftershock, so it's odd that you wouldn't acknowledge that... You may not be easily able to get 120 MR, but no one needs 120 MR for 2.5 seconds. A mage's rotation usually comes down in 1-1.5 seconds. 2.5 seconds is much better for armor, you can tank 2 turret shots, a couple of dragon hits, loads of minion/wave attacks, and marksman/assassin burst.
You Don't Read. They don't reach high levels on BOTH Mag Resist and Armor. They do have Armor kit bonuses, but are meant to be vulnerable to magic. Even when they do get some resist, it settles around 110 TOTAL. This isn't about tanks. This is about AD builds suddenly ALSO being tanks, and about this change boosting tanks MORE than the old. Rammus for example, DOUBLES this base (Aftershock takes precedence to his defensive Curl, and Curl almost DOUBLES it - it's going to add 220 Defense or more to Rammus)
: That's not a buff, lol. You could easily pass 120 at the mid levels if you were stacking armor and MR. It's a buff to low income tanks (supports) and non-tanks (top laners). It sucks for real tank players.
It takes 333 of BOTH Armor and Resist built into a build to get to 120 Bonus from the previous Aftershock. You never had that on any tank except Sejuani. Even Malphite, who scales passively, had more Armor BUT did not meet anywhere close to 333 Magic Resist, especially not on the same build.
Pika Fox (NA)
: 1) Its only a buff defensively; the damage is getting nerfed 2) The defensive buff is only useful on initiation. If you land a good initiation with proper support, it will allow you to survive the initiation better for a better trade, but with the loss of the damage youll be contributing less to said trade.
It's not even really a nerf to the damage. Any Sorcery Secondary will have transcendence, which will cover any lost HP ratio damage. And most of the champs we're talking about have AP or AD anyways. The damage and availability is and always was reliable.
: {{champion:131}} uses this quite well now. Since her E pulls enemies closer buy doesnt stun them she needs that extra tankiness to last longer for more autos which means more damage. She also times well with it cause her E cd early is quite long. Like alot of people are saying, this will help out fighters quite a bit when going in and should be a nice change.
Except most fighters are already pulling 51%+ Win rates.
: Jax does not and cannot one shot mages. One-shot requires a single string of spells to kill with very little time to react. Jax W-Q-E-aa does not kill on its own to be considered a burst. He still needs to autoattack you a few times after which could add a whole 3 seconds onto this said "burst". I mean that statement is naturally false because her dash still takes times to complete, but even if hyperbolic her ability to reset her Q on minions is what defines her playmaking. And she does not have "hard stuns" she has a single inconsistent stun which past early game is very difficult to use as a stun due to her main damage point being burst from her Q. Irelia is in a very average state right now beside that listing things that she does well does nothing to help your argument. Irelia suffers under any team with mobility as her only stay power is a long CD Q (when used directly) and a stun/slow which mobile champs can kite away from.
You can argue all you want but late game, Jax kills anyone who isn't a 400 Armor tank in 1 second. Leap Slam by itself does 800-900 damage and if empowered does another ~300-340. The following Auto attack does another ~600 plus he can use Counterstrike to finish off whatever's left. And it's all on very small cooldowns that are near spammable other than Counterstrike (which gets down to 5.4 seconds with a 2 second duration....) He doesn't need to get in auto attacks late game. He does early game. Irelia's stun is VERY reliable, and on low cooldown. All it requires is her to be lower HP than her target, and if she's higher HP, her damage will carry her through a fight. If she's low, she stuns, and brings them low. I don't know where you get this idea her cooldowns are long. Tier 5 Q on CDR is about 3.2 seconds, Instant if it kills. E is 4.3 seconds. Nothing about her kit has a long cooldown, even her Ult (on Ultimate hat it's a 36 second cooldown)
: my issues with resolve tree: tenacity is terrible due the amount of CC that cant even reduce currently while the option in that line being much much better i even take font of life in soraka iron skin and mirror shell are outclass as well, i dont feel they offer enough power early to compensate conditioning early ten minutes instead of making it flat amount of defenses why not a different aproach? less damage from crit? maybe less damage if the enemy is 500 unites away from you? less damage from DOT effects? AOE? something like that would make a much better decision making game currently damage is so strong because defensive option for anyone but a tank are just flat awful is all about "oh you kill me in one second? better i build myself to kill you in half a second then"
There's literally only 2 kinds of CC that Tenacity doesn't affect: Suppression {{champion:19}} {{champion:90}} And Airborne/Knockups. It affects EVERYTHING ELSE.
Goatfish (NA)
: Yeah, Resolve tree SUCKS
No offense but I dominate Lee Sin in map presence with a Leona Jungle. Clears fast enough to get those Mobis and Cinder by level 7.
Häxel (EUW)
: pbe change that probably comes to live wednesday: Armor and MR changed from [20 + 30% ] to [70 - 120] Explosion damage lowered from [40 - 140 (+3.5% of your max health)] to [10 - 120 (3% of your max health)(+15% of your bonus attack damage)(+10% of your ability power) Also saying CoC was relatively well balanced is itself a joke.
Which is an insane BUFF. Tank supports are going to autowin bot lane simply by existing because on initiation, they will spike to 180-200 Armor at level 1-2. Alistar already has 1300 HP by level 3-4. Now he's going to have 200 Armor too.
SatomiKun (EUW)
: Caitlyn easier conditions? It will be bad on her. Her only hard CC are her traps. There are 2 scenarios I can think of that will be the most common. 1. She uses her traps to chain CC. These situations mostly already ended in your death and I don't see it making such a big difference. 2. She uses her traps for zoning, which means you either can avoid them or it is you who decides when Caitlyn gets the resistances. Which will mostly end in Caitlyn wasting her keystone.
She's unlikely to take it. The primary purpose I see in it is Caitlyn suffers in team play. 1v1 she's great. 2v1, She nets one person and dies to the other. That's basically the utility I see in it: Trap/engage target 1, kill them while target #2 has to deal with your armor/resist, and potential close range Aftershock damage. If Cait can get it down to 1 target from 2, she can leisurely take the second target too.
: A lot of the people you suggested wouldn't necessarily have a lot of use for them... but as a person who loves me my divers I'm super excited. Camille, Jax, and even someone like Irelia could be very interesting with this change. I personally like it a lot. It shows Riot is thinking about us fighters and trying to incorporate some options. The earlier change to give resolve tree some ad/as speed if you chose dom/sorc/precision was also a good step in giving fighters actual options. Tanks have grasp, fighters can make use of aftershock.
yeah. because you "fighters" aren't already hard to kill...... Jax already 1 shots mages and blocks auto attacks late game half the time. Now he's also going to be able to TANK those mages, meaning he won't have ANY counters. I had a nice Irelia on a team 3 days ago that I watched Q to 13 minions within 1 second using a script. Awesome teammate, but I'm pretty sure a cheater by the precision. Even without scripts, she's parasitic, being one of the highest tenacity champs, with kill resets, low cooldowns, hard stuns, etc. She basically never suffers unless it's a new player playing her who doesn't realize they can just 100% secure every cs/kill, etc.
: ***
Xin usually max caps attack speed, so 3rd attack isn't exactly a long time lol. It also pairs perfectly with knockups during his ult, as people outside the ring already can't kill him, and now people inside the ring will have to deal with tank stats. Xin using aftershock will be able to pull off 5+ second ults reliably without the ult running out.
: So........... Vetren's scars all over again? ;p
I don't think Veteran's scars was even comparable to this? It was a tiny Life bonus (up to 54 Life). For awhile it was % life, but the % was low enough it was neglible (4%). That's nothing compared to a free 20% extra reduction to damage taken PLUS a potential extra damage.
: It's hardly being changed. Just more accessible to other champions now and is alot less strong late game on tanks (no +30% armor/mr) while also opening up more build paths. Also half those people aren't gonna run it cuz it simply doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as Electrocute. And alot of those champions rely on early Electrocute cheesing to function. This will however bring more attention to Darius and put him back under Rito's radar. I don't like Darius :)
I think you need to learn math. It's stronger both early and late game. 120 Resist/Armor reverse engineered from 30% would equal a requirement of 333.33 Armor and 333.33 Resist on the SAME BUILD to result in 120 Resist/Armor on the old build. You might be able to pull off 330 Armor OR 278 Resist on the old build, but you couldn't pull off both at the SAME TIME. Furthermore, most build don't have any Armor/Resist at all in the core other than auxilery stats or a GA. You're goofy if you think Aftershock doesn't compete with Electrocute for damage. I do an average 3700 Aftershock damage on Leona per game, and I don't even build her HP.
Ifneth (NA)
: Aftershock will be healthy for fighters. It means that every time you CC an enemy, you’ll get a tankiness buff so you can survive while doing your job. This rune should let fighters dive backlines more reliably, and I doubt that this effect alone would justify taking it. You would lose your current Keystone and either the runes on its tree or your whole secondary tree if you wanted to cheese-pick Aftershock. Tanks, on the other hand, might abuse it. Nautilus’ autoattacks stun on about the same cooldown as Aftershock’s. Making those hit harder and grant him a defensive steroid would be overpowered. The same goes for the grounding that follows Maokai’s Q, Twisted Advance. Giving tanks strong, hard-to-punish early trades sounds like a bad idea.
The keystone they're giving up isn't near as strong in overall performance. You're talking Junglers ganking with 98 Armor 87 Resist at level 2 if they have this keystone. That's enough armor/resist to null 40% of damage taken, which means they won't die to minion aggro, and will be able to pure sustain an exchange long enough to change the outcome of a fight. 2.5 seconds of major damage reduction is FAR stronger than early game Fleet footwork, or Press the Attack, or Comets. Personally I'm planning on adopting it on {{champion:143}}, because she times well with the 20 sec cooldown, and that 2.5 sec boost is going to create major gaps in Udyr, Riven ganks, which happen really fast. But they too will have it, and those who don't..... will just get run over.
: Also rip Frostfang on Eve. I know she wasn't an intended user, but it felt like it really made her kit and power curve come together... _And_ they're planning on nerfing her as well, because she's a little overtuned.
She's not even overtuned. She's a Tier 2 farmer, useless pre 6 ganker most of the time, and she has an iffy mid game unless the other team lets her kill them.
: If you actually think adc's are going to start taking aftershock over PtA, then you're just stupid.
Most adc's have already abandoned Press the Attack for Fleet Footwork/Klepto atm. And Precisions getting nerfed on all levels: Triumph losing Gold proportions Coup De Gras getting nerfed to 7% Overheal Nerfed. I don't expect most to. But I do expect adcs who often get assassinated to go Aftershock. With GA it's a sure 200 Armor 160 Mag resist in pinch situations.
: And if they just use some of their few brain cells, they throw in some CC and save the burst for after the aftershock burst - or they just throw all they have and pop you anyway because 120 of both defstats is by far not enough to be tanky vs focused fire later on. A shortlived defstats boost that can't be directly triggert to reactively counter focus/burst is not nearly as strong as you'd think, atleast in higher elos.
Can't be directly triggered? What? What do you call Udyr's Bear Stance, or Vayne's Condemn? That's precisely what they are, and they can time it with incoming assaults. Most Vayne kills happen in less than 2 seconds. Most Vayne ganks happen in less than 2 seconds.
: Fighters can use some more durabillity, and it's not nearly as strong as people think. 2.5sec is not a long time for defstats, and since it triggers from hard CC, your opponent won't do damage for atleast half that time anyway. Unless you throw all your burst at them right after the CC wears off, the defstats won't do that much. Also, you need 200 bonus ad or 300 AP to break even with old values, +another 33 AD /50 AP for every 1000hp on the damage, and you definitly loose damage for early trades. I don't think it will be much of an 'Op abuse case'...
Right after is exactly when people DO throw skills.... Assuming this is a team game..... if a teammate is locked down, 90% of the time, teams go in to try to save them.
: I don't recall Vayne ever using Courage of the Colossus, and that's what Aftershock is reminiscent of.
That's what the OLD Aftershock is reminscient of. It had % Armor/Resist. VERY different than getting 120 Armor AND Resist. Which means even Mages won't be able to nuke her during her ult.
: Half of these champs either already use it or will still have better options afterward... {{sticker:sg-lux-2}}
The ones I mentioned had AP/AD builds viable like {{champion:77}} . AD Udyr wouldn't build it before. Nor would Riven. The Armor/Resist bonus was too low to be worth taking. Now it's Flat. I sometimes build AP Leona btw, which now will be grossly inflated.
: {{champion:103}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:157}} Not all are directly assassins but definitely play like them and can abuse this new keystone
Yeah but a lot of them it's not the best pick, because their Immobilizes are either rare, or very situational.. {{champion:245}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:157}} are pretty much the ones I think can abuse it out of that list.
Ralanr (NA)
: Oh yes, tanks with heavy armor bonuses getting a benefit out of aftershock. _shocking_.
Maybe he's referring to a pseudo AP build. I dunno.
Ralanr (NA)
: Ok. Why would an ADC pick it over press the attack, comet, or any other keystone? An ADC with a stun or displacement usually has it from long range so you’d basically be banking on the durability to happen if you fucked up and let them get close but still got CC down.
Press the Attack only favors nondisplacement adcs. Most adc fighting occurs within the 550 range, not the 820 range (after RFC it does, but this has an impact at low levels too..... 40 Armor on an adc in lane is HUGE). Vayne is up close and personal. Jinx Early game is too.
: Can't wait for aftershock assassins. Gonna be great
Only Assassin I can think of that has an Immobilize is Evelynn..... Who else?
Ralanr (NA)
: Considering fighters could probably use the extra durability, I’d say it’s a win.
It's 1-2 items worth of armor for free on fully loaded builds. And it can be used on an ADC. That's the problem. The trade off is negligible, and gives rise to Demolish meta on every champ who can benefit from it, or Unflinching. There's no real sacrifice for giving up Precision or Sorcery for Resolve now.
Weedbro (NA)
: oh no volibear might actually be relevant https://media1.tenor.com/images/5c26c84b7e9854e8f8277553e78dfec1/tenor.gif
Personally I don't care about Voli as much as champs who have immobilizes that could create a ton of defense where it shouldn't exist, 1. {{champion:67}} The Aftershock won't damage on Vayne, but that armor/resist is a temporary juggernaut mod on a Vayne who wallknocks 2. {{champion:56}} Already nearly unstoppable Fear execute. Now even more so. 3. {{champion:39}} Synergizes stupidly with her Hiten Style to gain tons of Resist/Armor/heals and have an overloaded resettable kit. 4. {{champion:51}} Same as Vayne, except longer range and easier conditions. There are so many people who will just be stupidly overloaded from the armor/resist alone. This change makes the keystone arguably more powerful than Precision keystones in some cases, because some champs who use them do % damage or have built in crits or heals, so they don't need the Precision setup, but benefit LARGELY from plat Armor/Resist. With a GA adcs who take it will temporarily have 200+ Armor.... and all they need is 2-3 seconds to kill someone.
Rioter Comments
: Riot, can we talk about Evelynn?
Omfg. She's going to drop from 50% to 46%. Her E is the entire reason for her ability to even kill people and act like an assassin Late game, that's a change from 28.5% HP damage to 21.5%. That's going to mean about 25% of her ults that kill now, will not kill. Furthermore, this is reduced by magic resist, and her W's Mag penetration does not last long enough to apply to her entire kit (It's gone by the time Q is gone Eve E's) It means her jungle grind is going to be MUCH slower early, and she's already a tier 2 clearer. It's mostly going to translate into an additional 2 minutes before she finally has 6, and people know her kit so well that ganking pre 6 isn't always possible now. That 2 minutes is really going to decrease her entire game presence; She's already having to buy Frostfang in high elo games, because she just can't keep up gold-wise to other junglers. Her kit's just not accessible to fast paced play farm demands. It also means adcs who are fed are just going to shred her, even if she's building to confront them ( {{item:3110}} ). If she builds a Morellonomicon, she's not going to do enough damage to actually put any juggernauts/tanks into Grievous wound territory (atm with a 900 AP Evelynn late game I can barely get a Darius to Grievous wounds territory in a team fight, much less even come CLOSE to a solo kill) This is going to create some many threshold failures it's not even funny. Why is she getting this when her kit is the only real kit still punished by pink wards? What about {{champion:35}} Who comes online level 2 and never stops, and actually 1 hits?
: yeah right, she ones of the most tanky champs in game, "pop like a ballon". And there's no skill about landing her trash sword. Blitz is skill, braum is skill, naut is skill, yet all blocked by minions. yet leona gets to go through, honestly is ridiculous. one of the riot dev team probably a leona main so made her broken.
Blitz's output is MUCH higher than Leona's. That's the trade. In addition, Blitz has no risk to his pulls. Leona risks being killed. Braum enables the adc to stun the other laners. He does % damage and blocks incoming attacks. That's his tradeoff. of the three, Leona is actually the least reliable vs good players. Leona also gets boxed out by aoe slow teams. Not only that, her CC is less duration than the others. The root is a fixed .5 seconds and doesn't prevent immediate flashes, etc before she lands her 1 second Q. On the other hand, Braum's stun = long enough to kill anyone, Blitz's pull doesn't can't be interrupted except by a few skills which counter displacement. I mean... if you're losing to Leona.... don't know what to tell you. I Jungle Leona, but when I support vs Leona I always beat her with {{champion:267}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:143}}
tieger05 (OCE)
: Should I still build Void staff if enemy has no MR?
Nah. If they have no resist and no forseeable plans to get any, just go Death Cap or Mejais or Seraph's. More AP trumps more penetration when they don't have any resist.
Sujiren (EUW)
: This is what happens when you overload support items :)
Not anything new. Btw... in 8.2 Talisman of Ascendancy goes bye bye, so you won't be able to use it anymore. I used to use Talisman on karma top.
Vectros (NA)
: I'll give you this: I didn't think about a couple of these things... I try not to have a mind set of "I'm always right", and I've been basically using the same build on him since Pre-season from the get go, so I didn't think about Unflinching-I didn't think it'd really be any good. Though I will point out at the moment, despite it's popularity, it is NOT the highest winrate on him-but I am going to try it out some. That being said, there's enough knock ups in this game, Tenacity feels useless half the time. Ok, talking about Plat+, Garen is a little strange. Typically a champion either rises or falls going from low to high/high to low in win rate. Garen drops the higher you go until you hit Plat, where he goes over 50%-then plummets to 46% in Diamond+. Illaoi goes from 50.1 to sub 50. Maybe not weak, but I wouldn't say good either. Can she a threat? Sure, but going back to the original discussion, I can't call her ban worthy.
Second strings aren't generally banworthy on my list either. I still observe them as independently disruptive. Let me put it this way. I had a {{champion:99}} on my team yesterday while I Leona jungled. It was mostly a Diamond level game. Lux went 22/2/8. But I don't call her disruptive, because that was the result of the other team forgetting she existed and trying to skirmish me and the rest of our team while she just slaughtered them from a distance. If it was a smart team, they would have been taking out Lux in 2 hits before attempting to fight us, that wouldn't have happened. And, Lux doesn't bind up team time; If she kills you, it's instant, ress timers. If you're trying to kill her, it takes 20-30 sec to set up the pick. My problem with what I call second stringers is they just absorb "time" and you rarely get anything for it. If Garen has Demolish, and keeps harassing a lost top lane that your top laner has now abandoned, he needs addressed or he's going to end the game by taking turret after turret. Same with Illaoi. And even if you do actually engage them, most have kits to where they can get away, and come back as soon as you leave, with Demolish primed for another Volley. At least with Illaoi or Yorick you can kill them. But Garen gets away. Nasus has the capacity to kill 2-3 of you irregardless if you're ganking him, and get back to 1-2 hitting turrets. You can't just let them go, and addressing them always has inherent risks and wastes of time. If an adc is pushing bot, you just kill her. She's very unlikely to be able to return the favor, and it doesn't take a team effort. If what i'm calling second Tier pushes, they take an entire game and sometimes that's not enough. If a Mage pushes anywhere, they're dead. period. Except the ones I mentioned, Mages and adcs are more or less trivial when pushing objectives and considering time expenditures. The ones I mentioned all waste time, are high risk, result in multi kills and sometimes whole team wipes, which is how they waste time.
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsZNOZtH,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-17T15:59:48.828+0000) > > In other words, you're saying he dies because the other team has knockups and enough punishment to kill him in 1 second, soley due to the skill level of the elo putting fights together and tight. > > I've played Plat/Diamond, and I've played Silver/Gold, and here's what I find: > > Yes. At high elo, players know how to collapse on someone immediately when an opportunistic cc hits them (just had a Diamond game this morning where I Jungled Leona vs a Xerath, Ashe, Zilean, Gangplank, Lee Sin. I spent the entire game pretty much just ulting Lee Sin and Ashe, and as soon as I did, even if I was out of timing, our mid Lux was just blowing up every stun, even though Lee was being a slippery devil. I couldn't get a lot of Q's in because Zilean and Xerath were Zoning my Leona with slow after slow along with Gangplank barrels, but that didn't stop my Lux from just destroying them). > > I'm sure most of your Garen games also have an early game {{item:3123}} , but in Mid/Low elos, a Mage just can't get Garen low enough to proc Grievous wounds, and no one really builds Execution there. > > He also is tanky enough that if you ignore him, he has Demolish and pretty much 3 shots a turret, and most teams don't have consistent enough knockups. Since I do Zyra, I do occasionally have one Knockup, as with Nami, but those don't really seal the deal vs a Garen who always has a {{item:3065}} Nah mate.Never bought a excutioner vs Garen lol. He healing is pathetic till lvl 11 where he unlocks his passive.
Again.... you're talking as someone who lanes top, not the team who inherits him from a top. For all intents, let's suppose you're a new perfect top player, and only a top player. I need a top only player to look at the Garen a team inherits if a perfect Top player like you doesn't exist, but instead slightly wins his lane and is level 13 by the time the other team inherits him. He's level 17 by the time the other team is level 14, because he just never gets stopped from farming, and never misses anything..... perks of a poor top laner who didn't really feed..... but couldn't stop him.
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsZNOZtH,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-01-17T14:33:49.990+0000) > > I want to know your strategy for making Garen so irrelevant that he doesn't need to be 4v1'd, can be killed before he escapes, or can't escape. > > I mean.... I main champs that used to actually box Garen in to where he could at least be 2v1'd.... and gave him overlapping cc. Now..... he gets away from them all: > > {{champion:43}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:143}} all repeatedly apply {{item:3116}} I can land Karma W and Q after W Q on Garen and by 3 sequences, he's far enough away he can escape. I can Q Morg, Ult him, Soil him with the pool being behind him, and he can get through all 3 cc's with no problem at all. And he can do it chain after chain with no misses. > > And, I can't get both {{item:3165}} and {{item:3116}} by the time he has this capability, because I generally play support. By the time I encounter him, he's got a 2-3 level advantage and 3 items. I can destroy him if he's on Lethality, but if he's tank, he just.... never dies, even if my team is 4v1ing him. > > So by all means. explain your point of view as a rengar player. Dunno what you are talking about. I don't see Garen aproach anyone in the midgame without getting blown up. The only use of his i've seen is a good peeler for carries with the silence and shred. He is useless outside 1v1's .And even 1v1 he can be beat unless you got vilain on you. As for lane phase i litterally rolf stomp Garen on my smurfs everytime i see him( As Reng considering i quit darius cause he is attrocious atm) and talking about smurfs cause nobody gonna pick him above d4 ) His tenacity is USELESS cause everyone and their mother has knockups. You won't see a team without at least one or two knockups/displacements in a game.
In other words, you're saying he dies because the other team has knockups and enough punishment to kill him in 1 second, soley due to the skill level of the elo putting fights together and tight. I've played Plat/Diamond, and I've played Silver/Gold, and here's what I find: Yes. At high elo, players know how to collapse on someone immediately when an opportunistic cc hits them (just had a Diamond game this morning where I Jungled Leona vs a Xerath, Ashe, Zilean, Gangplank, Lee Sin. I spent the entire game pretty much just ulting Lee Sin and Ashe, and as soon as I did, even if I was out of timing, our mid Lux was just blowing up every stun, even though Lee was being a slippery devil. I couldn't get a lot of Q's in because Zilean and Xerath were Zoning my Leona with slow after slow along with Gangplank barrels, but that didn't stop my Lux from just destroying them). I'm sure most of your Garen games also have an early game {{item:3123}} , but in Mid/Low elos, a Mage just can't get Garen low enough to proc Grievous wounds, and no one really builds Execution there. He also is tanky enough that if you ignore him, he has Demolish and pretty much 3 shots a turret, and most teams don't have consistent enough knockups. Since I do Zyra, I do occasionally have one Knockup, as with Nami, but those don't really seal the deal vs a Garen who always has a {{item:3065}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsZNOZtH,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-01-16T22:55:54.239+0000) > > Not like garen isn't broken as hell atm. He causes more problems right now than a Vayne ever will, due to his insane Tenacity Stacking, Healing, Damage. You just can't isolate and kill him anymore. He can just destroy all your CC and run away if in trouble. tenacity is irrelevant. His healing is a bit obsene but w/e one auto cancels its. His dmg is only overwhelming if he gets a full E on a squishy ( he wont EVER...) or via his gimped passive
I want to know your strategy for making Garen so irrelevant that he doesn't need to be 4v1'd, can be killed before he escapes, or can't escape. I mean.... I main champs that used to actually box Garen in to where he could at least be 2v1'd.... and gave him overlapping cc. Now..... he gets away from them all: {{champion:43}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:143}} all repeatedly apply {{item:3116}} I can land Karma W and Q after W Q on Garen and by 3 sequences, he's far enough away he can escape. I can Q Morg, Ult him, Soil him with the pool being behind him, and he can get through all 3 cc's with no problem at all. And he can do it chain after chain with no misses. And, I can't get both {{item:3165}} and {{item:3116}} by the time he has this capability, because I generally play support. By the time I encounter him, he's got a 2-3 level advantage and 3 items. I can destroy him if he's on Lethality, but if he's tank, he just.... never dies, even if my team is 4v1ing him. So by all means. explain your point of view as a rengar player.
Lovesick (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A6YEVrJo,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-14T14:37:26.958+0000) > > Her E is garbage now, reduced by every CC reducing factor. If it can't last 2 seconds, she can't kill you (yes it reacts to tenacity, QSS, and Cleanse as well as spell shields..... and then there's the whole Nullifying Orb and Hexdrinker.....) I can one shot people with little to no AP. Don't act like Zoe isn't absurd in this aspect.
K for one thing you're a challenger level smurf who literally never has a bad game. 15 days ago you have a 37/4 Normal {{champion:62}} Game 15 Days ago you also have a 34/3 {{champion:55}} Game. But you have exactly ONE Zoe game, where the game ended by the time you had 1 kill (remake) You don't have sustained Zoe scores on any account named Lovesick. Mostly {{champion:55}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:420}} etc. You play the broken of the broken almost exclusively, and your only Zoe games are Normal games. One account is Diamond IV and the other is Plat II The one Zoe game I did find was vs a Gold IV ADC and a Level 44 Unranked mid, and a Bronze 3 top. Even then, you only 13/1/4. in a 24 minutes game. If she was broken, or could actually be reliable in those 1 hits, you would have easily had over 20 kills given the skill gap. When actually playing against same level players, I guarantee you fair far less, because in ranked you only tote a 54% win rate, which is pretty low vs some Diamonds.' In fact, you only average enough ranked games per season to account for "maintaining" your elo. Your top used champ {{champion:55}} Only gets 20-30 games a year, and you only get about 56 games overall. You basically only play ranked for the prestige. You obviously like to pick on nubs for fun, and there's nothing wrong with that. To each their own. Just pointing out your record suggests your only experience with Zoe is vs much weaker players than yourself.
: Even smurfing is garbage.
Not like garen isn't broken as hell atm. He causes more problems right now than a Vayne ever will, due to his insane Tenacity Stacking, Healing, Damage. You just can't isolate and kill him anymore. He can just destroy all your CC and run away if in trouble.
: If dodging affected your hidden MMR then people would be able to dodge all the way into bronze 5 mmr which would be very abuseable Which is why it doesn't
No. Because there's a thing called Leaver buster and increasing time penalties. After 2 Dodges, you're eligible for Ban tiers for dodging per day. By the time you dodged down 1-2 tiers, you'd be perma banned.
DracoMTA (NA)
: Nope it doesn't affect your MMR in the least.
You don't really know that because there's no actual public MMR data. It is true that as your placements go on, your MMR changes as you win/lose. You don't start Placements at Gold V and end at Gold V. If you win your first game, you'll be placed with more Gold III, and if you lose, it will slide to Silver I. by the end of your placements you could have slid from Gold V clear down to Silver V teams.
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Azadethe

Level 54 (NA)
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