Guts Man (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=AzuBK,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=EmjGouud,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-07T19:28:08.424+0000) > > Hey, I can field this one because I happened to suggest it to SolCrushed late in Neeko development. W has minimal combat benefit during lane, so using it offensively when it had a mana cost was usually negative value—that mana could go to waveclear or poke instead (you would mostly only press W when you were getting ganked). W is also pretty hard to use effectively and takes some learning, so it was important that she want to use it frequently in lane in order to get practice on the ability in a non-life-or-death settings. Removing the mana cost and moving that cost to Q/E meant that Neeko players are encouraged to try and trick people with her W in lane as much as possible (using it to set up tricky E angles especially), giving players way more practice both with and against the spell and offering a different laning experience from the more standard mage pattern. Ok cool, thanks for your answer. So how I understand the rationale is that if this ability had a mana cost, it'd be used primarily to get away from ganks during the laning phase, rather than a "deception" tool on her enemies. I guess the way I saw it in my head, was Neeko is getting a free engage/disengage, with multiple benefits at no cost other than a cooldown - I thought this was a bit odd but the way you explained it makes sense. I guess that brings me to my next question, if you're able to answer, about other abilities in the game that have a similar purpose (albeit a different effect), such as Decoy. I'm only asking because I feel like the Decoy ability is similar in numerous ways, but still costs mana which would affect waveclear and timing on when the ability can be used to deceive an opponent. Once again, thanks for your answer! I appreciate it and it definitely helps understand why this was done.
I haven't given Decoy much depth of thought, so there may be something I'm missing, but I think it's a bit different in that it's a more mandatory part of Wukong's combat pattern. He is encouraged to cast it aggressively, because his trading pattern as a melee champion with no other disengage or mitigation makes it very valuable, so there's no need to take the somewhat unconventional step of making it free so that he feels like he should cast the spell (which was required for Neeko). It's still possible that there are enough reasons that it might make sense as a free/very low cost spell, but that would certainly come at a some cost to his other abilities or the actual output of Decoy. To sum it up: it might make sense, but at face value I don't think the final changelist would make Wukong a meaningfully better champion, because he'd still play very similarly but with some values shifted around (could be wrong here). For Neeko, it was super important because players felt like using her most unique spell in lane was the wrong choice, and removing its cost made that no longer true. Additionally, she's just very difficult to gank when her W is available, so there's value in prompting her to put it on cooldown for reasons aside from escaping.
Guts Man (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=EmjGouud,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-07T17:04:11.232+0000) > > Reception seems pretty positive and some of the deception play seems to be working as hoped. > > Looks like she's probably noticeably too strong. Going to assess on Monday after both Neeko players and their opponents have had a bit more time to adapt, see what changes look appropriate. Hi Meddler, Just piggy backing off this, I actually have a quick question about her kit. I noticed that her Shapesplitter ability cost no mana; what is the rationale behind this? Although it is short lived, she gains bonus magic damage, movement speed, invisibility and has a controllable clone. For comparison, both Wukong's Decoy (stand still clone and magic damage) and Pyke's Ghostwater Dive (camoflauge and movement speed) both cost mana. I understand LeBlanc's clone cost no mana, but its also located on her passive. Just wanted to know the rationale behind the no cost for this ability. Thanks
Hey, I can field this one because I happened to suggest it to SolCrushed late in Neeko development. W has minimal combat benefit during lane, so using it offensively when it had a mana cost was usually negative value—that mana could go to waveclear or poke instead (you would mostly only press W when you were getting ganked). W is also pretty hard to use effectively and takes some learning, so it was important that she want to use it frequently in lane in order to get practice on the ability in a non-life-or-death settings. Removing the mana cost and moving that cost to Q/E meant that Neeko players are encouraged to try and trick people with her W in lane as much as possible (using it to set up tricky E angles especially), giving players way more practice both with and against the spell and offering a different laning experience from the more standard mage pattern.
Zaghyr (NA)
: Runes Reforged Mass Rework (Very Long Post)
Some cool stuff in here, thanks for the thoughtful post. Speaking generally about presentation (for future projects perhaps), I'd advise you to go deeper on the specifics of your values and how each solution you propose delivers on those values. For changes like these, the why (values, goals, desired outcomes) are at least as important as the details of the change when it comes to getting people to understand why it's good beyond "looks like it might be cool." Without that information, it's tough to evaluate or challenge your goals, how you are meeting them, and whether the tradeoffs are worth it. One specific call-out I'd make reading this list is that overall complexity of the runes would go up dramatically, which may be engaging when playing around your own runes but runs the risk of making the experience too complicated or overwhelming when there are 10 players in the game with 7 of these runes each.
: Detailed Feedback on the current LeBlanc PBE state @AzuBK @Jinxylord / @RiotAugust
Thanks for the feedback, this is helpful stuff. Agreed that the ult cooldown is too long on PBE, planning adjustments.
: I'm really concerned about the MASSIVE cooldown increase on LeBlanc. Before Season 6 it used to be 40 / 32 / 24 seconds. Her ult is also a tool for waveclear. So why nearly 2 minutes?
This is one of the more experimental changes noted in the comment above the full changelist. The output of LeBlanc's ultimate isn't drastically different from other mages' ults in lane, and the necessity for a low cooldown at that stage isn't clear. So we're trying out aggressive cooldown scaling as a first step here, and we'll be looking at how games play out and the feedback we get and tuning as makes sense.
: > [{quoted}](name=AzuBK,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=g3irv9JI,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2018-03-06T21:45:36.753+0000) > > Yep. I just edited in the full (current) changelist. We decided early on that W doing damage was an important pillar of this work. Are the old Particles and Sound FX coming back? If not, is Mirror Image going to get a new sound FX?
Currently she's using the old particles as a placeholder, since I wanted to get her on PBE at the start of this 8.6 cycle rather than delay her any longer. We'll be assessing which particles and sounds need updates and doing that work over the next few weeks.
: Does her W deal damage again? Just this and I'll marry one of you guys asap
Yep. I just edited in the full (current) changelist. We decided early on that W doing damage was an important pillar of this work.
  Rioter Comments
Dokkaebi (EUNE)
: I heard that Deathfire Touch users are getting compensation for the loss. Is that true?
We're not looking to directly compensate champions for losses that aren't explicitly well-understood (see: base damage comp for abilities with bonus AD ratios). The plan is to holistically evaluate champion performance in the new world and adjust accordingly, just like we've always done throughout the year. If all DFT users are suffering similarly in performance, that work might look like a systemic solution (for instance, if they're having marginal success with Arcane Comet's refund, it can be tuned in a fashion that favors them more explicitly), or it might look like individual champion work.
: Will the same thing happen with Udyr when he has "The Ultimate Hat"? If so, what does his swap to?
Yup. To my knowledge each row with an "unusable" rune has a universally usable rune. In the Ultimate Hat row, that rune is Nullifying Orb, so if you take either Ultimate Hat on a champion without an ultimate or Manaflow Band on a resourceless champion, you'll get Nullifying Orb.
: So lemme get this straight
The adjustments aren't 1:1 correlated with things that are being removed in the preseason. Many classes were generally dealing less damage in Runes Reforged-world due to lack of penetration (runes, precision mastery / %pen masteries) and damage amps (double-edged sword, sorcery). Our overarching goal with these adjustments is not precise compensation, but to make sure that champions feel similar to live and can succeed in similar ways, since achieving exact parity is mutually exclusive with such a major overhaul.
: So, does Morde's R get a buff? It scales off bonus AD after all.
To clarify, base damage increases are being given to Bonus AD ratio abilities on champions that are getting AD as part of their base stats (generally in lieu of AD marks). If your champion didn't take AD runes, then they are most likely getting other base stats/changes.
: @Riot, why is Phase Rush getting completely dumpstered on the PBE?
Expect some pretty aggressive tuning on the PBE as we lead up to release. I put the numbers this low to get information regarding the keystone's power level and viable range. Information gathered, there's another pass going in for tomorrow. That said, Phase Rush is a different keystone from Stormraider's Surge despite its surface-level similarities. The new activation paradigm means the audience is different - melee bruisers are generally happier taking this version whereas some mages like Vladimir have more difficulty activating it. Phase Rush is also easier to activate in early lane, which is meaningful for a keystone that is on the upper end in terms of late-game output.
: Does ultimate hat reduce the ultimate CD beyond the 40% max CDR cap?
Yep! A little more context on how this works below. The Ultimate Hat reduces your ultimate's cooldown by up to 15% (also known as multiplicative CDR) - this is notably not the same thing as adding 15% more CDR. Whatever your ultimate's CD reads after applying CDR, multiply that by 0.85 and you've got your post-Ultimate Hat cooldown. This decision was made so that the hyper-scaling properties of CDR don't impact the decision-making around whether or not you want this rune. Otherwise, the rune would be a worse choice on champions who didn't build much CDR (like Shen), even if reducing their ultimate's cooldown is clearly desirable.
: Does anyone else feel the new rune system shafts every role that's not AD?
In our playtests, AP champs have seen success with both Sorcery and Domination (and sometimes Inspiration!) primary paths, and that's only in playtests I've been in. We've also seen good diversity in secondary path selection as well as in the runes chosen for each path (Resolve is actually quite powerful - it's worth noting that right now on Live burst mages run defensive seals and sometimes glyphs). Personally I'm a fan of Summoner Specialist in mid to shore up a weak early lane with Teleport before switching to Ghost/Exhaust/whatever the game demands, with the possibility of some slick TP plays later in the game.
: Cho'Gath's E already procs Hunter's Talisman on every single aa. That's why I was asking if you had taken his jungle clear into account.
E damage does not proc Talisman on live. Maybe the misunderstanding stems from the fact that auto-attacks proc Talisman? Regardless, I have taken his jungle clear into account and tuned the ability to give him a similar clear speed. No worries there :)
: Do you think the change could possibly hurt his clear speed and sustain in the jungle?
His early jungle shouldn't feel too different. Auto reset is powerful, and Hunter's Talisman will now proc on his E as well.
: Hmm...not sure how you got the impression I was ignoring questions through "fluffly evasion". I addressed the one direct question that OceanicEyes had around mana cost for E, and then added in some additional information around some other things we want to do with the ability. Currently we may considering looking at some of his mana costs on his other abilities, but won't be touching his mana pool or passive (at least not currently). No work being done regarding the animation. Though something to note regarding your comment about note be able to hit Q on anyone, with E now having a decaying slow it actually works really well for setting up your Q (the spell is still having the pass through spikes), so you can hit people at range with the slow which sets you up for an easier Q as opposed to you feeling like you have to fish for it all the time. Also worth noting that the Max HP damage applies to all units hit by the E spikes, not just the initial target, so you're still getting pass through damage on all creeps, not just the first one you attack. The ability will still apply spell effects, and I believe it's still an auto attack reset (though I'll need to confirm that). I'm stuck at home sick and not with the team so I can't just spin around in my chair :P.
Mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, but for visibility: Q mana cost is down in the current iteration to offset the cost of E. We may end up moving mana costs around in other ways, but Cho's total kit mana costs should still feel equal in the final version. Anecdotally, he hasn't had mana problems in internal playtests.
Jackom1 (EUW)
: Regarding cho, have you also explored the option of his base kit getting bonus damage based on the amount of stacks he has. Or even just having some of his basic abilities scale with bonus health?
The current iteration of his E has a damage scaling component with feast stacks :)
: Hey Meddler! I'm a vehemently passionate Cho'gath main, and I am very interested in these changes and would like to give my feedback. Other than his ultimate, Cho's E is actually my favorite ability. It's definitely boring compared to other abilities, but I love it for its potential melee damage (I love maxing it first), allowing you to outrade almost anyone in melee range, and easier last hitting to make your passive extremely reliable. The changes you're proposing to his E really interest me. For starters, I play and consider Cho'gath as an AP juggernaut, so seeing changes steering him in this direction is something I can appreciate. I will make mention that many Cho mains do prefer his full AP playstyle, so it is worth talking with all of his mains before steering him into one direction. Nevertheless, I myself am interested in the E changes as they add more to his E than just a toggle. It sounds like it can add some great burst, a window against Cho when E is on cooldown (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), and more motivation for players to stay away from range of this deadly void titan. My main concern with E, however, is potential mana costs. I stay healthy with mana and hp in lane by being very conservative with Q and W, while relying on current E as my main tool. I just hope that I can keep a similar playstyle where I can preserve my abilities for when I need utility in trades. Thanks for the update on Cho!
Hey OceanicEyes - As the designer currently working on Cho'gath, I'm glad the new E direction piques your interest. I'd like to shed a little light on the questions and concerns you expressed. One of the main goals with this update is to make Cho'gath's influence reflect his size and lack of mobility. It just doesn't sit right that the gigantic lumbering void terror is eminently kiteable, but is not sufficiently rewarded for finally making it into range. The new version of E provides a more persistent threat, offering agnostic %hp damage that makes even tanks leery of remaining in melee range for too long. Its windowed nature also reflects Cho's weakness in getting to / staying on high mobility targets. Toning down its 100% uptime allows us to make it a powerful ability even if you only get an auto or two off before Lucian dashes out of range. The slow also rewards Cho for making it to his target by giving him a window of "stickiness," rather than the current situation where dodging Q guarantees that your enemies walk away scot-free. Re: Mana costs, the E currently has an activation cost of 30 mana. Right now we're going with a reduction on the mana cost of Q to balance this out, and Cho hasn't demonstrated mana problems in internal playtests. The Q cost reduction is pending to change, but rest assured that we are conscious of the repercussions of adding a mana cost to a formerly mana-less ability and are looking to offset. AP Cho'gath will also remain alive and well - or perhaps end up in an even better spot! In the current iteration his Q/W/R damages and AP scalings are untouched, and the slow attached to E will allow him greater Q accuracy if he's willing to get up close and personal (or if he can find some clever pass-through angles). Hopefully this clears some things up, and thanks for the feedback as always!

AzuBK

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