: Is there anything that The Watchers could be afraid of?
: I mean, if you equate farm, then I can see that number being possible, but they didn't say farm included.
: I'm with you in every single point you made. I'm waiting for the 10 year anniversary so i can see what they planning for the preseason, If they are not fixing shit up I'm gonna call it quits. Hope they fix it though.
I can't wait for the ten year anniversary so I can get my 150 Blue Essence and a Prestige Edition summoner icon.
: Champion Types That Are Inherently Broken
They aren't innately horrible, but the way Riot chooses to handle them makes them so. Like, you see these kinds of character all the time in Dota and it just isn't a huge deal. **Carry Supports** These are fine, it's just that Riot doesn't **make** carry supports. They make gold independent semi-carries, and then rebalance them to the point where you can barely play them outside support anymore. A straight up mage played with the income of a support while mainting their usual game impact is **horseshit**, but a support putting him his big-boy shoes and carry his shit team with his 3k net worth? Yeah, sure that can be cool. [Here's what Dota 2's Enigma (basically a walking talking Orianna ult) does.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Im2eeIVr8) This man literally needs no items (though they help a ton), as long as his ult is off CD he's one of the most threatening heroes in the game. He can kill an entire team, yes, but it's not like there's nothing you can do about it. If you interrupt the channel he becomes garbage, and if you don't clump you'll force him to solo ult people. **Stealth Assassins** These are fine, it's just that Riot has no idea what a healthy assassin design looks like. Riot seems to have the misconception that an assassin needs to be super bursty, but that's just not true, and that's especially false when it comes to stealth assassins. These guys should be squishy champions who pop out of nowhere and fight when the enemy is unprepared to deal with them; exceptional at fighting on their own terms, but outside those conditions they need to turn tail and run. [Here's what Dota 2's Twitch equivalent does.](https://youtu.be/4Xcai5Ymz8Q?t=266) This son of a bitch **HURTS**, but you don't see him twoshotting fools. You have enough time to react, and maybe to even fight back. **Scaling Champions with Lane Dominance** This is fine, but only if the character in question is based in disruption and utility. This is honestly one thing Riot has done well in the past. Just look at this perfect, flawless in every way, absolutely amazing (and not to mention sexy) champion {{champion:432}}
: What if Aftershock was based on the user's % resistances?
Literally just give us Courage of the Colossus back.
: I don’t see a universe where Pyke is ever reasonable. He will always be too safe.
Make the dash component of Pyke's E targeted, same as Fizz and Qiyana minus the instant damage. That way he can't E into position for a Q and he actually has to do something fancy to E to escape.
mack9112 (NA)
: So your want to make adcs let’s reliant on items to achieve there ideal Crit fantasy ? Would this just not mean they would all just build the best defensive items to fill the slots previously filled with Crit items. All the builds would still be exactly the same.
First... no. The "Crit fantasy" is a dumb idea and shouldn't exist. They should be item reliant to get crit. Reliant on one item, a super greedy mid-late game pickup suited for once they've picked up enough attack speed, defenses, and damage to make it worth grabbing over different items. {{item:3031}} could literally be the only crit item in the game and it would be good. * 80 AD * An average AA DPS increase of 31.25% (37.5% for old IE's 2.5x multiplier) Would anybody rush it? No. Attack Speed stackers might pick it up as a fourth item to give them some raw DPS. AD stackers might pick it up second or third to give them burst. This is fine. This is not some chaotic, evil idea. This is literally just a more extreme version of season 3, when people built BT first instead of IE (I'd hope for better item diversity than that, but baby steps) You don't fucking **need** Zeal items to kick this into overdrive. With 3 crit items, you have a 75% chance to crit for 2.25x damage, which is a DPS increase of **93.75%**. That's fucking absurd. Second, that's not how carries work. Their purpose isn't to hold their IE and look pretty. Their purpose is to kill the entire enemy team. Yes, *some* items with defense should be necessary to do this. No, this does *not* mean that a naked IE is good. {{champion:22}} "wtf Malphite is OP he literally takes no damage" {{champion:16}} "What? 0/3 how are you not dealing damage to hi-" {{champion:22}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3083}} {{item:3065}} {{champion:16}} *a summoner has disconnected* Third, that's only if Riot fails to make any good item designs. It's not hard to make something that's better than "{{item:3031}} {{item:3086}} {{item:3086}} {{item:3006}} {{item:3080}} {{item:3033}} on every champion every game", but Riot has to stop being a bunch of pussies and make some real items.
HàrrowR (EUW)
: See people think that they want crit changed into something else but all they really want is to completely nerf the living shit out of these items, i've seen people argue that crits should do 150% damage and IE should raise it to 175% or some stupid propositions like that, as if carries wouldn't switch to on-hit and lethality, which brings me to my next point. **People think they want crit changed but they don't** When ADCs could build {{item:3053}} people bitched and moaned so they changed it to melee only, nevermind that this actually meant that the ADC dealt less damage overall and that there was less damage in the game overall, you know, like the boards always say they want. When ADCs could build {{item:3071}} people bitched again, when guinsoo is meta, guess what, people bitch again, when lethality ADCs were/are meta people cry that ADCs are abusing assassin items and that they are too bursty, now imagine DOTA item system in league, people's heads would literally explode. Most of the core carry items in dota give you Agility, which gives Damage,AS and Armor,yes, carries aren't squishy in dota, not even close, they have items that give them % dodge chance, they have items that make multiple copies of you that all deal damage, they have items that make you immune to magic damage and CC, they have items that give you 200% lifesteal for a duration etc. And the best part is there's no need to build 3 crit items first like in League, you can stack all of these items and work just fine. As you can imagine i prefer the Dota item system but just love league more for some reason, they are not the same games. The thing is the closest alternative to crit is on-hit and trust me all of you would hate it, {{item:3006}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3124}} {{item:3091}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3156}} because ADCs would become bruiser drain tanks while still dishing out a lot of damage from range. If it were up to me i'd ditch the crit but its for selfish reasons only, i'd much rather have {{item:3153}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3124}} as your standard core build where at 3 items you have lifesteal, ms, armorpen, magic pen, as, slow from botrk, %hp dmg etc. instead of the crit build where at 3 items youre squishy AF and don't have any utility except some MS from zeal items
Crit should exist, and IE's 2.25 multiplier is fine. I don't think you should be able to increase your chance to crit at 2.25, though. The problem isn't just Crit, though. There's also the lack of situational items for ADC's, and the lack of meaningful differences between the ones that do exist. For example... there's no reason why both {{item:3080}} **and** {{item:3812}} should exist, since both of them fill the **exact same goddamn niche**. Then there's {{item:3115}} and {{item:3091}} which are both just "on-hit magic damage". Literally the only reason they're two seperate items is that Riot couldn't allow Malady to exist. There are exactly three legit situational items for marksmen. {{item:3026}} {{item:3156}} {{item:3139}} *MAYBE* {{item:3033}}, or which of the {{item:3086}} upgrades if you want if you're being *real* generous. Everything else is just either "A good item for your champ that you want to buy" or... not that.
EATARI (NA)
: I made a proposition on this topic myself, which strangely got ignored. Basically, I suggested that crit become a flat percent damage increase on AA instead of a percent chance for double damage. This would allow crit to remain otherwise unchanged, but allow you to build only one or two crit items and still have consistent damage. Ex; Under the current system with 50% Crit and 100 AD you to deal either 100 or 200 damage, with an average of 150 damage. This new system would cause you to only deal 150 damage, with an average of 150 damage.
That got ignored because it's a proposed rework for Crit that just straight up isn't Crit. Crit has problems, but randomness isn't one of them (especially with the low multipliers in League).
Antenora (EUW)
: Meanwhile... Mages build the same 3 items almost every game. Mages build the same boots every single game. But I don't see anyone talking about that!
Mage items are bad, but at least they have the *illusion* of situational items. ADC itemization is an embarrassment.
xelaker (NA)
: You would have to make crit so bad that raw damage and pen replaces it. There will always be a must build for the adcs since they only want to do the most damage in the shortest time possible.
No, just make Crit a one-off stat on a couple items/abilities and then change your other items. If your item design is so bland and uninteresting that the correct answer to every build is "just go for the most possible damage", that's a terrible design and should be overhauled.
: Personally, I'd love it if Riot hard-capped champions at 2 Crit Items. As in, a player can only buy 2 out of these {{item:3031}} {{item:3508}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3087}} and then needs to flush out the rest of his build with other stuff. This would limit ADC's raw, unmitigated DPS to something more manageable (you know, like in the seasons before season 6) and allow for more build diversity. Of course, with this approach, one would need to make the three Zeal Upgrades also come in somewhere around 3300-3400 gold in power. ---- Moment, **3** Zeal Upgrades? What about {{item:3085}} ? Hardcapping Crit Items at 2 would allow a retooling of this item away from Crit Chance. Maybe turn it back into a pure AS item? Or give another interesting stat line? ---- Also, I'd make {{item:3071}} and Lethality mutually exclusive. As in, purchasing Cleaver hard sets your Lethality to 0.
This doesn't fix anything. We just get Stormrazor all over again. "Hey ADC's, stop stacking crit" "OK, what do we build now?" "idk rush a targons or something lul" Crit can be balanced in its current state, the problem is that its lame as hell and does away with the concept of adaptive itemization.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bârd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4JBb4AML,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-09-15T23:58:54.197+0000) > > If it's done properly, we gain dozens of buildpaths for every champion and lose *nothing of value*. > > Barely any champions would even need to be touched. > > {{item:3031}} > 80 Attack Damage > UNIQUE Passive - Crit Damage: Increases the multipliers of any crits by 0.25. > UNIQUE Passive - Critical Strike: Wielder has a 30% chance to crit for 2x damage > > {{item:3086}} > Zeal and its derivative items no longer grant critical strike. They now grant a moderate amount of attack damage. > > {{item:3508}} > Either doesn't exist or has been reworked. > > {{champion:23}} > "Tryndamere has up to a 35-50% chance (based on level) to crit for 2x damage, based on his current *fury*". > > {{champion:157}} > Removed doubling crit chances. > "Yasuo has a 25/50/75/100% chance to crit for 1.8x damage at levels 1/6/11/16". > > {{champion:22}} > "Enemies afflicted with Frost Shot take 10-50% bonus damage from Ashe's basic attacks" > > {{champion:51}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:498}} > Removed crit chance ratios. AD ratios on these abilities now additionally scale with level. Harrier CD lowered based on level. > > {{champion:203}} > Removed crit damage ratio on E. Multiplier increased by 5%. > > {{champion:202}} > Removed crit chance > AD conversion. > AS > AD conversion increased from 25% to 44%. > > > ___ > > The only champions you even need to consider here are the ones with Crit built directly into their kits, and even in those cases *you don't need to do anything*. > > As long as you're replacing those items with something good, it doesn't matter. > > If you don't believe me, lets see how one of the biggest Crit ADC's, Draven, would do with Dota's items, in which their IE equivalent costs 5330 gold. > > As it turns out... he would be completely fine. > > If Draven were ported into Dota 2 right now as a ranged strength hero, his build could contain almost any combination of: > > * Phase Boots > * Power Treads > * Hurricane Pike > * Mjolnir > * Satanic > * Desolator > * Daedelus > * Diffusal Blade > * Monkey King Bar > * Black King Bar > * Heart of Tarrasque > * Sange and Yasha > * Assault Cuirass > * Bloodthorn > * Blink Dagger > * Drum of Endurance > * Nullifyer > * Moon Shard > * Linken's Sphere > * Hood of Defiance > * Aghanim's Scepter > * Hand of Midas > * Boots of Travel > * Silver Edge > * Eye of Skadi > * Heaven's Halberd > > The Marksman rework didn't fail because League's system for Crit is some sacred thing that can't be changed. > > The Marksman rework failed because *League's items suck*, and Riot refuses to fix that issue. > > Hell, if Riot wanted to, they could literally build unique crit chances/multipliers into each champion's BASE STATS, but they won't. So what you are saying is that "if done properly" people would just go and find the one build that is clearly better than the others and build that instead? Because that is literally what happens with each and every single build in the game. Champions have builds that they will constantly go for regardless of situation with only one or two items AT MOST where they would feel comfortable in changing.
"If done properly", the build that is "clearly better than every other build" will be *a different build in every match*. Sure, there's a dominant build for every champion in League, but it doesn't have to be like that. The only reason that's the case is that Riot can't think of any effects to give items other than "+Stats".
KazKaz (OCE)
: Nah, atm she can go all of them.
Not really. Kai'sa has a ton of builds that are "not incorrect", but she only has one each patch that is really "correct". What makes her so good is that there's never going to be a patch where she doesn't have a good build. She's a lot like Ezreal in that sense.
KazKaz (OCE)
: Kai'sa can go AD, crit, AP and hybrid. That's worse than a "decent amount of item diversity". Oh, and she's more than "a bit overpowered right now", she's an abomination who evades the nerf hammer only due to her receiving a plethora of skins each and every 2 patches.
Her build fluctuates a lot between patches, but she tends to be locked into the exact same build every build every patch.
Rioter Comments
: You don't explain *why* it needs a rework and what there is to gain from it. How would it make the game better to change it?
Because if you're building to Crit people, that's **all your build will accomplish**, and that's lame as fuck. There already aren't a lot of situational items for an ADC to choose between, but the fact that Crit takes up 3 of your item slots means you just don't have space for even those.
: >If it's done properly, we gain dozens of buildpaths for every champion and lose nothing of value. No champion has "dozens" of build paths in a world where analysts get paid to theorycraft optimal builds. At the end of the day, every champion will have specific core items, supported by a handful situational items. I mean it's really cute to pretend that you can build half the items in the game. I should be able to relate since I OTP a champion that's been played competitively in all 5 positions and still has quite a few distinct soloQ viable item builds. But really, every champion has an optimal role/position/item build. And it's not an item rework that will change that perception. And seriously, looking at your list makes me wonder why you don't build Wit's End, Triforce or even Spirit Visage on Draven. Because they'd be more viable and make more sense than half the DotA items you listed.
Yes, dozens of builds is not only possible *but an inevitable outcome*, but only if the item system you create **isn't complete and utter garbage**. The entire idea that every champion only has a couple core items, plus a situational pickup here or there, is a concept exclusive to League, and it only exists because **Riot is terrible at making items** and is too lazy to up their game. There isn't a champion in League with an acceptable level of item diversity. Kai'sa comes close, but she's just somebody who has variation patch-to-patch, you don't see anybody changing up her build game to game. I'm not just speculating that "Hey, man, my AP Tristana could work". I'm saying this as somebody with 1.7k hours in Dota 2 (which is still a pretty meager amount), because even I know that if you just copy/paste an item build from game to game in Dota, *you are going to lose*. To drill it into your head that this *is not how it has to be*, I'll tell you *WHY* a Draven would build each and every one of the items I listed. * Phase Boots give raw damage, making them the better boots for a Draven going for a Burst/Assassin style. * Power Treads give attack speed, making them better for a Draven going for a DPS style. * Hurricane Pike gives Draven considerable mobility mid-fight, gives him bonus attack range, and gives respectable stats. * Mjolnir is a good complement to any attack speed heavy character, and it builds out of an item that would let Draven farm extremely quickly. * Satanic gives a massive amount of lifesteal, turning Draven into a nigh-invincible drain tank. * Desolator gives flat armor reduction and raw damage, making it great for bursting and objective control. * Daedelus gives Crits, making it great for a DPS style. * Diffusal Blade gives mana burn and (more importantly) a **crippling** slow on its active, allowing Draven to snowball the early game. * Monkey King Bar counters evasion. * Black King Bar renders you **immune to CC and magic damage**, making it impossible for anybody who isn't a carry to shut you down or stop you from catching axes. * Heart of Tarrasque is essentially Warmogs, and is the only massive HP boost in the game. Since it gives STR, and Draven would be an STR hero, this is also a damage item. * Sange and Yasha is two component items together. You can dissassemble them at any time to create their derivative items, both of which are potentially *very good on Draven*. * Assault Cuirass is great for pushing and teamfights. * Bloodthorn gives a silence and makes *every attack against your target crit*, which is very strong for a Burst Draven. * Blink Dagger lets Draven blink on top of a guy and use his damage. * Nullifyer shuts down enemy active items, situationally being very strong. * Hood of Defiance gives a magic damage shield, allowing Draven to survive against burst mages. * Aghanim's Scepter does something unique, so there's no telling how it would benefit Draven. * Midas gives a massive Econ boost, making sure Draven will *always* get his items by late game. * Boots of Travel are picked up lategame by pretty much everybody, so Draven would upgrade eventually too. * Silver Edge lets Draven go invisible and disable passives, great for a Burst Draven. * Eye of Skadi is like Frozen Mallet, but it also gives attack speed/mana and also slows attack speed, making it a great anti-carry item. * Halberd is a disarm, making it potentially even better than Skadi for an anti-carry style, but only if they don't have BKB or illusions. Dota 2 Items are all about unique effects. The answer is never as simple as "Daedalus gives me the highest damage output, so I'll go with that". There are a million other factors. * I need a BKB early or I'll get locked down and die before I deal any damage. * I need an Aeon Disc or I'll get killed by Void. * I need MKB or PA will dodge all my attacks. * I need Force Staff to get out of Riki's fog. * I need a Deso this game because they have little enough armor that Deso would give me more damage here. * I need a Linkens because otherwise Rubick will steal my Spinning Axes and become a better version of me. * I need to end this game before Daedalus comes online, because they have a better late game. * We have a comp where my late game is untouchable, so I'll just go Midas to make sure I reach it. * I need Mjolnir or PL is going to swarm us.
: What do we gain from wrecking the build paths for a handful champions? The idea of having to rework a dozen champions that are closely tied to crit for the sake of change and "variety" is a lot more disruptive than the ill fated (and mostly reverted) 2018 marksmen update.
If it's done properly, we gain dozens of buildpaths for every champion and lose *nothing of value*. Barely any champions would even need to be touched. {{item:3031}} 80 Attack Damage UNIQUE Passive - Crit Damage: Increases the multipliers of any crits by 0.25. UNIQUE Passive - Critical Strike: Wielder has a 30% chance to crit for 2x damage {{item:3086}} Zeal and its derivative items no longer grant critical strike. They now grant a moderate amount of attack damage. {{item:3508}} Either doesn't exist or has been reworked. {{champion:23}} "Tryndamere has up to a 35-50% chance (based on level) to crit for 2x damage, based on his current *fury*". {{champion:157}} Removed doubling crit chances. "Yasuo has a 25/50/75/100% chance to crit for 1.8x damage at levels 1/6/11/16". {{champion:22}} "Enemies afflicted with Frost Shot take 10-50% bonus damage from Ashe's basic attacks" {{champion:51}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:498}} Removed crit chance ratios. AD ratios on these abilities now additionally scale with level. Harrier CD lowered based on level. {{champion:203}} Removed crit damage ratio on E. Multiplier increased by 5%. {{champion:202}} Removed crit chance > AD conversion. AS > AD conversion increased from 25% to 44%. ___ The only champions you even need to consider here are the ones with Crit built directly into their kits, and even in those cases *you don't need to do anything*. As long as you're replacing those items with something good, it doesn't matter. If you don't believe me, lets see how one of the biggest Crit ADC's, Draven, would do with Dota's items, in which their IE equivalent costs 5330 gold. As it turns out... he would be completely fine. If Draven were ported into Dota 2 right now as a ranged strength hero, his build could contain almost any combination of: * Phase Boots * Power Treads * Hurricane Pike * Mjolnir * Satanic * Desolator * Daedelus * Diffusal Blade * Monkey King Bar * Black King Bar * Heart of Tarrasque * Sange and Yasha * Assault Cuirass * Bloodthorn * Blink Dagger * Drum of Endurance * Nullifyer * Moon Shard * Linken's Sphere * Hood of Defiance * Aghanim's Scepter * Hand of Midas * Boots of Travel * Silver Edge * Eye of Skadi * Heaven's Halberd The Marksman rework didn't fail because League's system for Crit is some sacred thing that can't be changed. The Marksman rework failed because *League's items suck*, and Riot refuses to fix that issue. Hell, if Riot wanted to, they could literally build unique crit chances/multipliers into each champion's BASE STATS, but they won't.
puśsý (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bârd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-15T21:50:47.943+0000) > > Kai'sa is definitely a bit overpowered right now, but she definitely doesn't have "Too much diversity". > > The vast majority of the roster has an unacceptable level of item diversity. > > Kai'sa has a decent amount of item diversity, and honestly the target level of build diversity for practically every champion should be slightly above Kai'sa. Compared to any other adc and champion, kai'sa's item pool is extremely diverse. However, I agree that the target item diversity should be above that of kai'sa's.
Remember when you could pick up a casual tank item on ADC and it wasn't troll?
datfatguy (OCE)
: I just feel like Zed doesn't take a lot of skill to play anymore
Season 3 Zed: * Wait for the ADC to pop their QSS on a Morg Q. * W into position, R the ADC * Land your E, all 3 Q's, and a passive auto, dip. * ADC lives with 250 health because of Barrier. Roll your eyes. * Wait a couple seconds, finish them off with a W-E-Q * /all gg ez Season 9 Zed: * Get within *650 fucking units* of the ADC * W-E-Q-W-AA * Flash mastery
Rioter Comments
: True. There are some champs like Riven and kai'sa etc who have too much diversity. But the majority of champs build the same items every game.
Kai'sa is definitely a bit overpowered right now, but she definitely doesn't have "Too much diversity". The vast majority of the roster has an unacceptable level of item diversity. Kai'sa has a decent amount of item diversity, and honestly the target level of build diversity for practically every champion should be slightly above Kai'sa.
: Would you say there are any items that need reworks?
Basically everything. * CDR is everywhere. You should have to go out of your way to cap CDR, not adjust your build to avoid overccapping. * So many items being exclusive to a build type (AD/AP/Tank) is a failure in my eyes. The fact that we need both Righteous Glory **And** Shurelya's in the game for the sole reason that "Oh, X champion can't build Shurelya's because it's AP" is dumb. * Mana is a joke in this game. Manapool and mana regen doesn't matter, it's literally just a damage stat for Ryze and a filler stat for everybody else. * Lethality is a dumb stat that serves no purpose other than to obfuscate how much armor you're penetrating. * Too much pen. * Not enough defense. * Too many stat stick items, not enough unique effects.
Loliver (NA)
: Which champion(s) do you think you could kill?
{{champion:11}} [As for why...](https://youtu.be/vdnA-ESWcPs?t=113)
Arakadia (NA)
: No... old Akali was new Akali when she was younger. They are the same person but her lore moved forward with the update.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/32/Akali_077.ogg/revision/latest?cb=20180717203152
: …. it does, lol. Every plate you take off of a turret adds more armor to it.
...that's not a shield. Janna's E doesn't read "After the targeted ally takes 200 damage, increase their armor and magic resist by 10%".
Rioter Comments
: League of Legends needs a Mother
Aparently old Akali was new Akali's mom.
: So..What exactly is Vayne and Caitlyn's roles now?
Cait bullies her lane opponent early game. Mid game, she sucks at actually fighting *but* has damn good area control with traps. She comes back online after she completes a third item.
Aizo (NA)
: Hm, I didn't consider turning his passive auto attack into a damage source or a team heal. I think that the problem with exchanging his auto attack speed for AD is weird because he isn't an AD champion and doesn't have (and probably would never) have AD scalings, so the only benefit the bonus AD would be giving him is to his auto attacks. I think that it also would mess with his "damage type" for things like Adaptive scalings, or how camille's shield interacts with maokai deciding whether he's AD or AP. I don't think that maokai is really the type of champion to be an Auto Attacker you know? To me his auto attacks aren't the compelling part about him except as the spoon to feed me the passive heal. I do like the idea of being more of a team player with his passive though in having team heals from it and I think that is an interesting approach. For his W I'm all for quality of life changes like that, which can open up counterplay and not just straight fuck maokai if he uses his w on say Akali and she decides she wants to flash ult into her turret and I'm sitting there like "Welp" but I also recognize that akali is playing around my essentially guaranteed CC move. For the saplings I personally really like the whole bush gimmick but I'm not against removing it in favor of a better designed champion as a whole. In your scenario would the saplings once again have a regular damage scaling as opposed to a % max hp scaling?
* You don't need to be an AD champion to have a beefy auto attack, and his base AD doesn't need to have any other benefits aside from being a really beefy auto attack. * It's base stats, so it does absolutely nothing for adaptive stats. * He still isn't an auto attacker. His base AD is nuts in this version, but his attack speed is abysmal. If anything, his DPS is going way down. * It's guaranteed, yeah, but the cast range is low enough that you can usually play around it. * Saplings would go back to their old flat value, maybe lowered by 10-20 due to the passive damage.
Aizo (NA)
: These were just my suggestions of things that could make him better in order to bring discussion to maokai because he has been out of everyone's minds for so long. So thank you for your input! If I might ask what do you think could be changed to make him better? What would you like to see maokai be in an ideal balanced world?
> **Stats** > > * Attack speed is no longer increased by 0.105 after bonuses. > * Base attack speed decreased from 0.695 to 0.600 > * Base attack damage increased from 63.5 (+3.3 per level) to 85 (+3 per level) Maokai is a lumbering (heh) giant. It makes no sense for him to flail around and hit you with a wet noodle. As such, his abnormally high attack speed has been exchanged for abnormally high base AD. High attack speed makes him *a bit* too good at triggering Sap Magic on CD. > **Passive** > > * Sap Magic procs no longer increase your attack windup. > * Sap Magic applies a debuff to the target that does 6-13% of the target's max HP as magic damage over 3 seconds and slows them by 25%. > * Sap Magic no longer immediately heals Maokai. It now heals anybody within 400 units of the debuffed target (or their corpse). Maokai can once again directly make his team more durable in fights, which is compensated for by how his personal durability has been cut a bit. It also gives him some % health damage, which I'll justify by taking it away from his saplings. >**W** > > * Maokai can reactivate mid flight (after a minimum of 0.15 seconds) to cancel the spell, putting it on CD. Because Quinn. > **Saplings** > > * Have been reverted to old Saplings. > * Base damage reduced by 10. Percent HP damage on your saplings is clunky. Saplings being empowered in bushes is gimmicky and I hate it. ARAM Maokai will just have to take it.
: I partly argea, it should remain a targetted ability. What I do like to see is that they remove the untargetable effect but in return he's unstoppable and the travel speeds has been increased again. As far the ult goes. I believe an missle speed AP ratio should be more than enouge make it more rewarding to use in later stages of the game.
Replacing his untargetable with unstoppable is just a flat out nerf. Going from "You don't get hit by that Morg Q" to "You don't get rooted by that Morg Q" is a downgrade, and if anything I'd want to see that travel speed *decreased* so he has the opportunity to dodge more spells and follow on more dashes.
Aizo (NA)
: Hey! I'm a Grandmaster Maokai OTP and I have a few ideas how to make this champion more interesting
Those W changes are terrible. * He'd be far too easy to lane as, since he now has an instant cast skillshot dash he can use to get out of any danger. * He loses almost all of current Maokai's skill expression (predicting mobility spells to follow the enemy, dodging key spells with the invulnerability) * More mobility creep... yay. The passive change also sucks. It cripples his late game by making it so he no longer counters spell spam.
: I don't hate Kai'sa, but in what world is that E nerf even remotely significant
It's sizable. Considering most of her damage comes from onhits (plasma, muramana, nashors) it's a decent hit.
: Manamune buildpath/recipe change
Oh great another item that gives CDR. We don't have enough of those already.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bârd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IIkH8FyQ,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-09T19:07:32.099+0000) > > If you can A-click and walk away with any hope of success, the enemy team are a bunch of morons plain and simple. > > If a Yi doesn't need to dodge anything with Q/W, an Udyr doesn't need to change stances, or an ADC doesn't even need to fucking *kite*, you've already lost. ranged adc's dude. but udyr can actually do it too with some lifesteal and tiger stance. RTO was on synapse a few weeks back with his no handed tristana gameplay. sorry, not sorry, it's very real that some of these ranged adc's take no skill to play.
Against players that are so far behind that they're basically on par with Intermediate bots? Sure.
Baval (NA)
: so you made Zoe and Taric extremely boring, and made Zoe also terrible.
I made Zoe *not cancer* and I made Taric *feel good to play*.
Moody P (NA)
: Zoe loses her entire niche as a flank shot mage with these changes. You're right that skillshot obsession is a plague but Zoe is a relatively balanced exception who's only real issue is how stupid her W is.
Yup. That's a terrible Niche that shouldn't exist, and you'd think we would have learned that with Nidalee, but here we are. Balance her as a sustained damage champion who kites people out and occasionally picks people off with her team's help with an R-E from Fog of War.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bârd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IIkH8FyQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-09-09T03:25:37.182+0000) > > So every AA based champion takes no skill? I'm gonna guess you haven't seen the lol highlights packages of people no handing adc's and getting kills. what do you think? People do that shit on high elo streams, letting the champion autopilot auto attacks because it's just that easy. synapse, lol highlights, hi I'm coconut, fun of legends, ifunzio, yeah they all got some clips of people doing the no hands play on some AA based champion. so please just fucking don't.
If you can A-click and walk away with any hope of success, the enemy team are a bunch of morons plain and simple. If a Yi doesn't need to dodge anything with Q/W, an Udyr doesn't need to change stances, or an ADC doesn't even need to fucking *kite*, you've already lost.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jocpXJcl,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-09-09T02:16:44.308+0000) > > Hes useless after his R combo though...like to the point where he can only hit you with his q.. > > But I am annoyed that ap malphite is much better than tank malphite, same with amumu... shen, malp and amumu were perma banned in s2 and s3 for a reason. also ap amumu scallings are just too OP, champ can literally solo baron faster than master yi.
They were permabanned because they were parts of [Bronzodia](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iK2A3MvV9AA/hqdefault.jpg). This monster capitalizes on several things. * Even a Bronze player can recognize to go in when Amumu presses R. * No Bronze player can sidestep Blitz Q. * Being able to save an ally is great when your ADC is a Bronze Vayne.
: Enough of This Nonsense Malphite mid
This has always been a thing. It's not that good. He bursts one guy for a pretty sizable amount at the start of the fight, maybe killing them outright and taking a couple others to half HP if he's lucky, and is almost useless from that point onward. It'd be one thing if this were a surefire kill, but it isn't.
: you're doing something about yuumi after worlds right?
Yuumi is dumb, but this isn't why. Bruiser carries in botlane are great, I just wish you didn't need Yuumi to make it work.
Hotarµ (NA)
: Point & clicks have no room for error and no counterplay other than: don't get in range or buy a QSS. Skillshots are healthier in almost every way.
Point and click abilities only become problematic when the game around them is overtuned. If somebody clicks on you, stuns you for 1.5 seconds, and then proceeds to deal considerable damage, that's not a problem. If somebody clicks on you, stuns you for any length of time, and then you get instagibbed because you stopped moving, that's a problem.
: 1000 damage 5 sec cd 1000 range skillshot is way more interesting to play with and against, then 500 damage 10 sec 600 range cd point and click
Definitely not. If I had to choose between having old Swain or current Zoe in the game, I'd take Swain every single time.
: point and clicks have no skill attached.
So every AA based champion takes no skill?
: can we get a classic system like wow
League should have a rollback system like Minecraft. You can download the game at any version through a dropdown menu to play custom matches, but the matchmaking servers only support the latest version. LAN Party on Patch 4.20 anybody?
Jakra (EUW)
: Why hasn't Malphite's ult been changed in some way to give more counterplay?
: [Gameplay Update] Aurelion Sol, The Star Forger
Mostly great. I don't really think it's necessary to make Comet do damage, though. You can scale its power up to ult level without tacking a nuke onto it. Just make it a port of his current E with massive range and a low CD. That utility would be better
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Bârd

Level 125 (NA)
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