: you literally get out of iron by just playing. Bronze is still the worst of the worst.
> [{quoted}](name=Live2LetDie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ueMPVqEv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-20T01:30:58.489+0000) > > you literally get out of iron by just playing. Bronze is still the worst of the worst. Well the moderators will not remove this post, despite that this lad has called me "bad", and so I might as well answer it. As I said there are great skill gaps in bronze. This can be proved by reason of every player, no matter how skilled he is, playing at least a hundred games in bronze MMR before he could fall to iron. As to iron, I am not certain that you know the difference between MMR and division. As far as I know, only players who have played hundred of games--enough for the system to determine a good Elo for them--can be in iron MMR. I never was in iron MMR, and so I would not know the difficulty to leave it, but it seems that you have more experience there than I. I gather though that if someone had fallen to iron that he might belong there, and would not be able to leave if he simply played games, and continued to play at the level that brought him there. A little advice for the future too junior: do not insult people to their faces. A little prudence now may save you a lot of money in the future, e.g. in surgery.
B1GMONEY (NA)
: Why in the world am I still in bronze?
I think one of the difficulties may be that new players begin with silver or bronze MMR, and it can take many games for them to fall to Iron MMR. This causes the discrepancy where new and part-time players may only be placed in their proper MMR after hundreds of games, but that new and part-time players may never play hundreds of games of ranked.
Rioter Comments
: Position ranks and split rewards coming to PBE today for 9.2!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The true Elo range is only shown after thousands of games. There's _not time_ to divide our time between five different rankings. You are deliberately obfuscating the optimal process of the system. At seven games a day that is at most 2400 a year. These should _all_ go to one ranking, to better eliminate statistical anomalies. Everything I have seen in favour of this change pertains to statistical anomalies or people who will fall out of their division if they play anything but one role. Let them for heavens sake! All of the alleged difficulties in ranked have one easy solution: play more games. You are introducing the one thing that can render this solution ineffective. There is _not enough time_ in the year to divide our games between five ranks! What a flimsy excuse to say that people find auto-fill "super frustrating" (I don't), ranked itself is super frustrating. The weak will fall and the strong will rise. If you fall because your link to an Elo is so tenuous that the occasional auto-fill game divides you from it, good--the system is working as intended. Elo is a range, not a precise number. Playing only certain roles is a senseless manipulation of the system. Let the wizards or would be wizards cry their tears. Those of who play this as a team game and have the understanding to support when it is needed should not be penalized and divorced from optimal efficiency of the system for the sake of a few oddballs. I get so tired of hearing these "platinum" and "diamond" complainers. Given all the problems they have at their Elo, maybe they should fall. Down here at Bronze III I can play any role and perform acceptably. Support is my worst role, and that is a weakness in my skill. It does affect my Elo, but not much, and after I play a few thousand games it should become plainly apparent what my Elo range is. Under your new system this will not be possible. I will have to divide my time between up to five rankings, darkening the accuracy of the Elo system, for it will not have had enough time to properly assess my Elo range.
akaLeoXx (NA)
: Impossible to get out of low elo
Bronze, whether it is "low elo" or not, is full of good players. If It weren't I wouldn't be in it. And you can still learn in it. If there is virtually nothing left for you to learn in a bronze game, then I would say you are ready to rise.
B1GMONEY (NA)
: Huge skill gaps in Bronze III (and a rant about "comeback bounties")
I gave this some more thought, and when you think about it, if you need to work hard and use specific strategies to rise out of here, it's no wonder that it contains a great variety of skill levels in it. It seems to me that when someone is simply skilled at the game it would not be hard at all to remain in bronze. My point in my post was that when I was last in bronze in season 2 or 3 this was not so.
Rioter Comments
: While Conqueror and Tryndamere are whole different beasts as subjects, as a Garen player that uses Grasp of the Undying, let me put in my two cents. For Garen, there's not a whole lot of options when it comes to Keystone runes. Let's just look at Resolve, since that is USUALLY what I see Garen players take as their main path. Grasp of the Undying- Deal 4% of my max health to heal 2%, and permanently gain 5 health with a basic attack around roughly every 4 to 5 seconds of being in combat. Health is the stat that Juggernauts usually want to build (Alongside resistances), as their own base AD along with maybe one to two AD items like {{item:3071}} or {{item:3078}} is enough in the damage department. So, 5 health for free for simply doing what a Juggernaut is supposed to do, attack? Sure, I can get behind that. Aftershock- Immobilize a champion to gain resistances, and then deal damage in a circle around you after a short delay. If I remember correctly, Garen has no way of even proccing this Keystone. The Silence on his Q does NOT count as an immobilizing effect, so that can't proc it. Bonus Actives on certain items like {{item:3742}} or {{item:3143}} that Garen usually buys don't count for it either I believe. So he can't even USE this one at all, and taking it causes it to be switched for Grasp. Guardian- Grant a shield to yourself and an ally upon using a unit-targeted ability on them. Garen also has no way of proccing THIS Keystone either, as he has no abilities that affect allies. The only way he could proc it is by tanking a skillshot or something while in range of an ally. When you're up in top-lane in the laning phase, generally by yourself, that's not going to see much use. So just in the Resolve tree, we can see that the only one that Garen really has, IS GotU. Then, let's expand our study. Looking at Electrocute in Domination, or Phase Rush in Sorcery, they both require 3 different attacks to proc them. So for Garen, that would be AA, then Q, then E, just as an example. I'm pretty sure that the pattern of attacks doesn't have to EXACTLY be that, but it Is the most reliable way of proccing them when one takes these Keystones. These Keystone runes CAN work, though it's usually in niche situations where he needs what whichever keystone respectively gives, and it makes Garen more of a glass cannon than a durable warrior, just in my personal experience. If you were a Garen player that can proc these reliably, then great! More power to you. But that makes it more of a "Hit and Run" rather than the "In your face all the time" playstyle that Juggernauts are USUALLY supposed to be known for. Then there's Predator in Domination. That requires Boots and a channeling time of 1.5 seconds. While the MS Boost can sync well with his Q, using it leaves him without a Keystone for almost 3 minutes, to a minute and a half, depending on his level. Next, Dark Harvest. He has to have the opponent at 50% health or lower. While this isn't necessarily difficult for a Garen to do, if he's up against a person or team that can kite him, it's not the best option. Then, Arcane Comet in Sorcery. It requires using an ABILITY to proc. Meaning for Garen, his Q, E or R. Not exactly difficult, but Arcane Comet isn't certain to hit EVERY time one uses it. Now, Glacial Augment in Inspiration. A free slow every once in a while on an AA. Not bad, but he has items he can purchase that grant the same effect. {{item:3022}} or the Momentum effect of {{item:3742}} come to mind. {{item:3143}} can do it in the form of an Active as well. I know that the things mentioned above isn't every Keystone in every Rune path, but its the ones that I can think of that that a Garen player COULD choose to take. Granted, they could take ANY one they wanted, but these are the ones I think they would logically choose based on what he and his kit can do. Last, but certainly not least is Precision. Press the Attack- Gotta land 3 AA's in pretty much rapid succession. But, while some Juggernauts do (Like {{champion:48}} , {{champion:102}} and some others) function on AA's, Garen for the most part, ISN'T one of them. He isn't known for fast AA's. Lethal Tempo- More attack speed related stuff. Garen's not exactly a AA Juggernaut, he's more of a Caster, damaging with his abilities. Fleet Footwork- A free heal and bonus movement speed. While the movement speed could be nice, his Q grants largely the same effect, and the heal really isn't that much; Grasp with the percentage heal is more reliable, since Garen will have, for the most part, a large amount of Health, and thus heal more THAT way than the flat amount that FF's heal gives. Conqueror- Ahh, one that Garen can use effectively for a change! Although, with the Villain passive already granting true damage (Granted it's only on 1 champion at a time, the point nonetheless stands) all he can really count on it for is the AD boost, and if he is facing a champion that he can really use the True Damage conversion against. This might be WAY too long of a response for your post, but I'll make it anyway.
(Original poster) Predator is the one that I use on Garen, though that is somewhat beside the point. I don't think the Runes Reforged system was a well advised system in the first place. What I am also saying is that the way that Grasp of the Undying and Conqueror are used in lane is like an exploit. I rarely choose these runes on champions, and don't play Garen (who used to be my main top lane) or Tryndamere at all anymore. You mention that Predator gives Garen nothing in lane for x minutes (and arguably at all). Well that is the point.... Garen was once one of the strongest champions in the top lane. Runes Reforged has overturned all the balance in the top lane. Champions are now being defined by runes, much moreso than abilities. Having said that I never played Garen as a tank. I am seeing Garens every game with obnoxious things like Second Wind, Doran's Shield, Grasp of the Undying, Warmog's, etc. It's earning him a terrible reputation, which as one of the oldest champions in League is just sad. But yes all the sustain he gets from runes on top of his passive makes it very hard for him to lose. He heals when I hit him, he heals when he hits me, and he heals when no one is hitting him. Once upon a time I could tell a good Garen from a bad Garen, now he generally just falls into the overpowered camp, and any victory with him is hollow, he has simply become somebody with grasp of the undying. Also the Doran's Shield is so incredibly strong that it defeats other choices. I always used to start with a long sword on Garen. Some started with cloth armor and five pots, or even a null-magic mantle, a doran's blade, or boots and pots. It's a complex matter, but Grasp of the Undying is definitely the straw that breaks the camel's back. I will always consider it an exploit used outside of extended duels, skirmishes, or team fights. Hitting a minion once every 3 seconds is not "combat", and I won't choose a rune solely based on the expectancy that I will be hitting a minion every 3 seconds, because sometimes I do not hit a minion every 3 seconds, and even if I did I would still fall under the distinction of exploiter. Essentially what you're saying in your post is that the other runes do not give you as much damage and sustain in lane as Grasp of the Undying. That may well be. I hope if and when the designers change this rune to function how it should (as a rune for a defensive build rather than a periodic burst in lane) you will have other options. I don't see why you're choosing what you call tank runes and expecting lane dominance from them. If I choose Guardian on so-and-so I don't expect to be pushing people out of lane or getting kills. That's not the purpose of a "tank" as you call it. Anyway if Garen was a tank every Tom, Dick and Harry wouldn't be playing him these days. He has always been strong in lane, but not incredibly popular...probably a) because it took some skill to play him against certain opponents and b) because they did not see the kind of results that the common player wants to see late game from his champions. When I first returned to League a month or two ago I was amused to see Garen bans, I have not been amused to see him bombing down lanes every game with carbon copy runes and items. It needs to be fixed, and not how Jarvan IV was fixed, by changing the actual champion because of one rune--electrocute--(what the heck? Why doesn't Riot just choose our runes for us if our champions are balanced around them?) but by changing the actual rune.

B1GMONEY

Level 30 (NA)
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