: I'm pretty sure they never fixed the bug where his E does double damage when you spam it on and off. It's completely toxic to every single game he's in, and there's nothing you can do about it either because he WILL run you down regardless of what champion you are.
It's not a bug, it's just how his E ability works. Urf just makes it really op
: Don't worry, he still has his 1.5 second silence, over 100% AD scale on bonus on-hit damage, removal of all slows, and movement speed buff. I'm sure losing 5-20 base damage won't stop him from 1v5'ing under a turret at level 9 and winning with all health restored after he spins away.
You literally described everything Garen can't do. Keep in mind he used to have up to a 2.5 second silence and used to move a little faster even further back to around the juggernaut update. Garen gets bullied by almost every top laner from 2-10, even though he's supposed to be a lane bully, and then falls off really hard after 16. He rarely wins early game, has a good mid game that isn't that good because he relies on gold/items to be effective which he never gets since he's no longer a lane bully, and then falls off late game. His only saving grace at the moment is the villain mechanic, which both Garen players and non-Garen players don't like Garen is like, the only Juggernaut who can't fight more than 1 person at a time, there's nothing in his kit that rewards him for hitting multiple people, and he has no hard cc and his silence barely lasts which makes it hard to towerdive as him unless you're already really fed.
Mega Noob (EUNE)
: GAREN "E" is bugged in URF mode and in need of urgent hotfix
It isn't a bug. It's just how the ability works. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hAKK98eE-garen-in-urf?comment=0001000000000000 They're nerfing his damage, I think it should be like -20% or -15% instead of 10%
: His HP and armor isn't that bad tbh. If you think it's bad, he still has** 80 - 200 (level 1 - 18)** more HP and **11 more armor at level 1 (2 less armor at 18)** than Mordekaiser, another juggernaut. He also gets a free **40 armor and magic resist** as the game goes on, just like how Morde gets "free" HP from his passive shield.
Well to be fair, I think mord is in the same boat as Garen. They both have very obvious flaws and are in bad spots. Mord is getting a full rework really soon tho. I think what I meant to say was that Garen is supposed to be like, the rival to Darius. They actually have very clear contrasted abilities. Darius makes opponents bleed over time. Garen heals himself over time Darius gets free armor pen, Garen gets free resistances Darius can slow with an auto reset, Garen can break slows with his auto reset They aren't _exactly_ opposites, but there are a lot of little things like that, and I think they should both be near the same base stats. Because right now Darius just beats Garen at all stages, no matter what. The only way Garen can fight Darius is if he's marked. It's not really this "two titans clashing in top lane" that you think it would be, it's very one sided in Darius' favor. I know I'm a little biased but Garen _does_ need work, so does mord, it's just that we already know mord is getting his full VGU
: Riot balance team. I implore you, please read this and consider.
What they should do is take out some power from the villain mechanic, like the 1% max health per auto/E tick, and give more power back into his base stats. He currently gets around 200 less hp and 20 less armor at 18 than other juggernauts, and he gets no scaling cooldowns (His W scaling is almost insignificant and on top of that it's maxed last, which is when Garen falls off). They also took 5 movespeed off swifties, 5 base movespeed, and 5% movespeed from his Q, which is pretty significant when you add them all together. The 1% max health from true damage just makes it unfair for people who are fighting against Garen, especially if they're a bruiser/tank. The villain mechanic was supposed to be a way for Garen to contribute to teamfights, since spells like exhaust would render him useless, and on top of that, Garen is supposed to be an anti-carry, meaning not a tank buster. Keeping the full true damage from the ult itself for villain, getting rid of the 1% extra damage, and giving some changes to his scaling base stats would be good for Garen. On top of this, I'd like to see more work with the W, the cooldown is just ridiculously long for no reason. I think it'd be a lot better to bring it down to something like 24/23/22/21/20 ---> 14/13/12/11/10, and then just reduce the duration of the damage reduction to last 2 seconds at all ranks, instead of scaling up to 6. That way Garen players have more chances to use the .75s damage reduction/tenacity instead of it being a one-time use in every teamfight. All of this is assuming that they aren't going to give him an actual rework, which I think he needs.
: Is this a bug? (Garen)
There's not really a reason for it to be canceled and/or go on cd when it doesn't hit It's a point and click instant ability, as in, there is no projectile to dodge. Either you use it and it hits while going on cooldown, or it doesn't hit so it doesn't go on cooldown. It'd be like trying to dodge the hextech gunblade active, it's just an instantaneous effect, it only goes on cooldown if you can actually hit the target
: this assassin meta is really annoying and tanks need help
Garen isn't a tank Also Garen counters kat, zed, and fizz. Malph obviously counters zed because he's similar to rammus in that he's a hard counter to physical damage champs Also wtf is with the hp cut in half and blitzcrank Q being point and click???????
: Can we revert Garen to not have thousands of free gold worth of stats?
Darius get's 1050g worth of stats level 1 when he get's 5 stacks He also gets flat armor pen, which applies to all of his physical damage and requires 0 setup besides putting points into it The flat armor pen is also 10% more than Garen's Garen also has lower scaling armor and hp than most juggernauts ---> About 200 less hp level 18 and 20 less armor
LordZeds (EUW)
: Nerf garen damage
He's not a tank and he's the only beginner champ with a winrate below 50%
: i hate garen
His passive early game is like 1/3 of a refillable potion. It's pretty garbage lol, lot more champs with better sustain pre-11
: If he forced trades in your minion wave and you lost, it smells fishy. You probably took a bad trade, fell behind and got killed again and again(since he outscales you). Something I have learned about Garen by playing him or facing him, his Q dictates trades. Someone is silenced, they can't fight back(unless they are right click champions). Garen beats Olaf, Yasuo or Darius, some of the champions that outdamage him with smart trades, if you go brainlessly all-in with Q-E you lose.
Garen does not beat a Darius that can utilize at least 5% of his brainpower. He just doesn't Olaf is kinda iffy along with yasuo, but Garen should _never_ beat a Darius in a 1v1 scenario And the silence is 1.5 seconds, most people can use their abilities by the time Garen reaches them, and can easily counter the trade by just waiting the 1.5 seconds before using the rest of their abilities. Garen's level 1 is pretty good, but 2-10 is just bleh
Holbuck (NA)
: I didn't say it was a bug.
"his spin stacks with itself." It doesn't stack with itself, but that's what people think it does and therefore they call it a bug, which it isn't It's just how his E works, nothing more or less to it
HalfABro (NA)
: URF GAREN IS NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST
Not a bug, just how his ability works. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hAKK98eE-garen-in-urf?comment=0001000000000000 Plus most mobile champs can easily keep their distance from him. Yes Garen obviously hard counters a lot of people in urf, especially if they have no mobility. However that logic can be applied in a plethora of situations. Off the top of my head just look at {{champion:238}} vs {{champion:136}} , obv zed wins because he's zed.
Holbuck (NA)
: Garen's spin needs to be looked at
Not a bug, all they gotta do is give him like -15% damage like they did with sona/zed, not -5% https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hAKK98eE-garen-in-urf?comment=000100000000
: > [{quoted}](name=Baron Von Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hAKK98eE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-24T20:19:06.776+0000) > > His E isn't bugged/glitched > > It's how the ability works. > > Should they have put a bigger damage reduction on him like zed/sona? Yea probably > > Does he need to be removed? Nah not really How is cancelling an ability and increasing the damage how something is supposed to work. If I am starving and eating a hamburger I just stop eating it 1/4 of the way through will I be full?
Again, there is no damage increase. Look at Garen lvl 1: His E spins 5 times over 3 seconds Once you click E, there is an instance of damage, it then procs another instance of damage before you cancel it, and another instance when you end it. However, in urf, the cancel cooldown is reduced by 80%, so you can cancel it almost immediately. The ability itself refunds his E's cooldown based on the remaining duration (3 seconds). This means you can keep spamming the ability over and over again. So lets say you can activate his E, deactivate it, and activate it again in the span of 1 second: Activation --> +1 spin Damage inbetween activation and end --> +1 spin End spin -->+1 spin Activation -->+1 spin You just hit someone with 4 spins in 1 second Garen's E level 1 is supposed to do 5 spins in 3 seconds (1.6 spins per second) There's your double damage "bug" Edit: But hey, I almost have 1mil on the guy, what do I know? ;)
: Tired of Pasty, White Champions That Have Been Coming Out. Riot Please make a more diverse Champions
They don't _need_ it. That's literally all there is to it. If you try to make a list of _needs_ for a company, they're going to come out with less quality because they aren't apt at making those types of things. Same place applies to the workplace. Don't want to get to far into politics, but when you put political correctness above everything else, quality and the business/company as a whole will start dropping. You shouldn't hire african americans solely based on the fact that they're african americans, because that's racist in of itself. Likewise, you shouldn't try to force riot to make a more diverse selection solely for the sake of diversity, because it will be blatantly obvious, the quality will be low, and nobody wants either of those two.
: Garen in URF
His E isn't bugged/glitched It's how the ability works. Should they have put a bigger damage reduction on him like zed/sona? Yea probably Does he need to be removed? Nah not really
LordZeds (EUW)
: full tank garen does to much damage
The only part of tank Garen that does damage is his ult. It has no scaling. Doesn't matter if you have 6 infinity edges or 6 warmogs, Garen's ult does the same damage. That's why it feels like he's doing a lot
: Garen can't use conquorer
Garen's E is a DOT. DOT's dont proc conq, it technically gives one since Garen's E is an ability. If it did, people like {{champion:122}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:17}} would be broken/even more broken with it.
Sëtíer (NA)
: Garen Spin
So idk where the 'heal' comes from. Garen doesn't heal off his E. His E isn't bugged in urf, thats just the way the ability works And his E isn't a channeled ability, you activate it once and it goes off for 3 seconds "Judgment is not a channeled ability, so crowd control effects will not interrupt it." So yea, riot does mention that he can't be stopped during his E, he'd be totally worthless if you could stop his E.
: Tanks that do damage
Tanks have utility, sion can zone really hard while also being a brick wall. He has large slows and armor shred and his engage is amazing. The only bruiser on that list that gets even close to a tank's amount of utility is irelia, but even then they took away the disarm. Also everyone hates irelia because she's overloaded but that's another issue. Bruisers are high damage, medium tankiness, and medium to low cc. Tanks are medium damage, high tankiness, and medium to high cc. That's why we separate them into classes.
Bultz (NA)
: Seriously fucking remove the random from urf
Sounds like you need to take a break from urf. {{sticker:garen-swing}}
drash79 (NA)
: We'll need cross the board Bruiser nerfs if the new conqueror goes live
I think what you meant to say was "cross the board _Ranged Champion_ nerfs" {{champion:69}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:85}}
: is it considered assisting the enemy team when you dont use your champs full strength?
: Personal opinion: Damage erases skill expression
So a fed juggernaut made you blow your cc and tanked tower while a fed assassin assassinated you. Whats the problem here?
: Time to discuss Garen nerf his passive
If you're playing against Garens that build Titanic Hydra, then Garen isn't the reason you're losing to him. Also "his healing is damn right stupid scaling on tiamat. " what? His passive doesn't scale on anything.
: I mean if you literally have 0 armor, then yea I guess. Plus why are you adding an extra 223? His Q _is_ the auto. Most champs prob have around 70-130 armor at this point in the game, so you're ignoring half of that. It'd prob do about 400 damage. Plus, idk why you're whining about his ult. {{champion:31}} literally does the same amount of damage except he doesn't even need to get you to 50%. He just stoneplates and 100-0's you by clicking on you. Cho also has better sustain with his passive from 1-10 than Garen, an aoe and longer silence, and CC + max hp dmg on _all_ enemies, not just the villain for Garen
o wait I see where the math messes up, you're dividing by .6 150 + (223/.60) + 223 = 504 I was wondering why that looked weird xD, thought you added something twice. It'd be about 462 dmg. As for Cho, the point is that he's a lot tankier and brings a lot of cc to a teamfight, something that's a lot better than Garen. And Cho can ult anyone he wants to and it'll do over 1k true damage. "And what do you mean. It’s a possible 525 + 40% missing hp true damage instant kill. " You can't 100-0 someone with just Garen's ult, it is literally impossible unless it's like, a level 1 Nami that is somehow marked vs a level 16 Garen. Usually it's at least 50% to kill them at 16 if they're marked, because if they're squishy, the extra 525 dmg can compensate for the missing health. Cho doesn't really need to be kited, if he knocks you up, he's probably going to get to you, and he can do it from a pretty decent range. Garen on the otherhand, has a 1 time slow cleanse, and his movespeed 'steroid' is only 30%. If you look at people like {{champion:114}} {{champion:164}} , they get multiple instances of speed that goes up to like 50%. Albeit it doesn't cleanse slows, they will still be able to stick to their targets a lot better than Garen. Also Camilles Q late game can almost do 1k true damage. Darius can do well over 1k on 5 different people. Fiora's ult can take out around 50% MAX hp, which can do well over 2k (its not point and click but you just have to auto them 4 times, not that hard when you're Q is up every 2 seconds) Edit: Also, Garen suffers from long cooldowns. If he can't get to his target with his Q, he has to wait 12.5 second before using it again (with no cdr). If you put one slow/cc on him after he activates his Q (Which is the only way he can really get to someone) he's basically done.
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gup7MKGU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-01-24T21:28:41.282+0000) > > I auto attack Garen to death with {{champion:143}} . No Joke. > I also auto attack Garen to death with {{champion:518}} . > > Even Illaoi wins vs Garen (more relevant since it is in the meta). > > The only problem with Garen is when YOU aren't the person Top laning vs him, and someone else decides to take a trading champ with a poor mobility/sustain kit. for instance i finished a game as vlad vs garen. I would auto him, q him, etc. but whenever i didnt have pool up he could easily run at me with q and then e with tons of dmg. So essentially i couldnt farm for 20 seconds after using pool. I didnt out damage him whenever i won a trade he would walk out for a few seconds and with his warmogs passive he heals to full. I feel like if a garen has even half a brain they could win a ranged match up unless its someone like caitlyn
Caitlyn is easy as hell to beat with Garen. obv not level 1-5 but after that you kinda just win. Garen suffers from mobile/cc champs. Garen's hardest counters are {{champion:122}} {{champion:114}} for a reason. You can't build against them, they both have either cc or mobility, and they also have in-combat sustain. If you can keep Garen in a fight, you'll win the war of attrition. He has long cooldowns, no in-combat sustain, no hard cc, and his only mobility tool is 1/2 of his basic damage. Vlad beats the shit out of Garen, the only thing Garen can do, which is what he is forced to do in his bad matchups, since outskilling an opponent usually doesn't happen, is to build tank and afk farm the lane.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gup7MKGU,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-25T11:41:50.130+0000) > > thats not true damage. > > 40% missing health. what youre proposing is mathematically impossible. Alright Math time. Grasp of the undying. 4% max hp bonus damage. We’ll say 3000 hp. Pretty average. 4% of 3000 = 120 Tri force proc on garen. 200% of base ad. Garen base ad at level 15 (late game) 125.7 Tri force proc 251.4. So 251 Decisive strike rank 5. 150+40% ad. Ad with triforce, steriks +base ad and adaptive rune. 125+25+10+63 = 223 150 + (223/.60) + 223 = 503.8. 504 So let’s add all this together. 120+251+ 504 + 223 = 1098 Short version 504 from decisive strike itself 223 from auto attack damage 251 tri force proc 120 grasp proc. If 1098 damage isn’t considered a nuke to you, then I hate to say it. But you May have a problem.
I mean if you literally have 0 armor, then yea I guess. Plus why are you adding an extra 223? His Q _is_ the auto. Most champs prob have around 70-130 armor at this point in the game, so you're ignoring half of that. It'd prob do about 400 damage. Plus, idk why you're whining about his ult. {{champion:31}} literally does the same amount of damage except he doesn't even need to get you to 50%. He just stoneplates and 100-0's you by clicking on you. Cho also has better sustain with his passive from 1-10 than Garen, an aoe and longer silence, and CC + max hp dmg on _all_ enemies, not just the villain for Garen
: > [{quoted}](name=Baron Von Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T18:37:53.827+0000) > > {{champion:117}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:40}} > > wdym they don't exist? > > Edit: And even then, kiting garen is easy as hell Okay. So you’re saying that the way to deal with garen is to have a role dedicated to deal with him, but riot has nerfed that role so hard that it’s almost entirely irrelevant. Perfect logic. And the counter to assassins in tanks, except tanks die instantly to assassins. But they still counter assassins because they are tanks. They just can’t be tanks.
It is certainly a good way to deal with Garen if you have one of them on your team. Other than that you can just kite him. Other conq abusers counter Garen Lot of adc's can outrun/use their mobility against Garen He has no dashes so it's pretty easy to hit him with something
: > [{quoted}](name=Baron Von Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-23T18:02:26.373+0000) > > Also, Garen suffers from enchanter supports. Basically anyone with a shield or one good heal can negate Garen's 100-0. > > If he can't 100-0 the first target he latches on to, he suffers from his extremely long cooldowns and you can basically kite him to death since adc's can kill any range of bruisers to tanks in a few seconds So things that don’t exist in the game because they aren’t riot approved are what counters garen? But they can’t counter garen because riot doesn’t approve of their existence?
{{champion:117}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:40}} wdym they don't exist? Edit: And even then, kiting garen is easy as hell
Razelth (NA)
: "(It has an area of effect, it isn't a point and click) although it only affects one target. " "Area of effect (or AoE) is a term used in many role-playing and strategy games to describe attacks or spells that can affect multiple targets within a specified area*." "Area of effect (often known as AoE) refers to an area with radius in where all enemies can be affected by the effect. Skill gems with an area of effect have the AoE gem tag." "Area of effect refers to skills or other gameplay mechanics that affect CREATURES in a specific range to the target." That's from three different game wikis. I'm not planning to argue past this. You're just troling at this point.
You still didn't read what I said. Nice attempt tho. Edit: Also, since you like to nitpick things, it is technically AOE If there are 3 minions and one champion, it will hit all 4 targets #AOE
Ifneth (NA)
: Garen Update Ideas
The villain mechanic is the problem. It is literally _unfair_ to fight against Garen when you're marked by him. You almost certainly _will_ lose unless you're someone like {{champion:67}} . Meaning if Garen gets to choose the villain, he will basically win almost any matchup. What Garen needs is either a mini-rework (which I want), or he needs the villain mechanic removed and put more power into his base stats/abilities (hp/level, armor/level, W cooldown, etc) since, compared to other juggernauts, his stats suck except for level 1. I think they should give him scaling cooldowns like most other champs, while reducing his damage. Get rid of the villain mechanic, and maybe change his E to shred armor per tick like you said. Another thing I'd like to see is changing his ult to physical damage so it actually pairs well with his armor shred, or give him some kind of mechanic that turns it into true damage after doing XYZ.
: > [{quoted}](name=hoganftw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T01:38:01.879+0000) > > *nearly unkiteable* > *garen* > > yikes that's like not even remotely true > Garen vs most ranged matchups is awful He had a ms steroid that doubles as a slow removal. What top laner has multiple slows, and range attacks that isn’t named Quinn? Also the range vs melee argument is entirely irrelevant. I can go on all day about how urgot wins every lane phase because Lul range.
Also, Garen suffers from enchanter supports. Basically anyone with a shield or one good heal can negate Garen's 100-0. If he can't 100-0 the first target he latches on to, he suffers from his extremely long cooldowns and you can basically kite him to death since adc's can kill any range of bruisers to tanks in a few seconds
: This is technically untrue. Lets say Ashe needs to shoot 3 different champions and has to rotate between them. Ashe loses no particular damage from this if all targets are equal. Lets say Vayne needs to shoot 3 different champions and has to rotate between them. Vayne loses extra damage because her stacks rely on one person being shot. Yes, any champion suffers, but perhaps none so much as Vayne.
Right, but the entire argument is based on vayne being "tied to a mechanic that you can actually play around " It isn't something you can do by yourself, there is no counter play. You simply take extra true damage that you cannot build against, armor will have no effect and health will have no effect since it's max % hp. Especially when you see vayne pick top lane, since she can abuse this passive with no worries. You can't summon people to your lane, so if the jg doesn't feel like ganking, you just lose.
Razelth (NA)
: You mentioned aoe attack speed/movement speed slow. You are proving no one wrong. God that technicality is so absurd. OH HEY IT HAS AN AOE VISUAL EFFECT IT IS TECHNICALLY AOE WHILE HITTING ONLY ONE PERSON. I guess it is technically AOE with its damage invulnerability, but you really should be more specific. I'm pretty sure they teach you that in middle school, so give it a few more years. Him falling off doesn't matter. Don't bring random points in. He gets a 6 second 30% damage reduction lategame. That sounds like a big deal to me, especially when he has nearly 4k hp in the late game and 150+ resists. Garen gets 40 free resists, that is not partially a lie, it is the complete truth. I guess Darius's in lane sustain is broken too then? He can move at full movement speed while charging it up, it's kinda hard to hit on a player using a fraction of their brain if we're being honest. Do you want to use math or should I? 20% hp shield vs 30% damage reduction for 6 seconds? He doesn't need an easier lane when his passive + Doran's shield + Second wind makes him near immortal in lane. "It has an area of effect, it isn't a point and click" I really want to make this my signature. According to Baron Von Garen, all skillshots are hereby now considered AOE spells, as they are not a point and click. When you read this, I know you are going to misconstrue my words, don't worry about this. Its just a joke. All your arguments are as well made as this one, but hey, you love to prove people wrong by using your sheer stupidity. After all, no one can ever win an argument against an idiot.
"but you really should be more specific. I'm pretty sure they teach you that in middle school, so give it a few more years." I just feel like you aren't reading half the things I type. In a 1v1 scenario, which again is what I'm assuming we're talking about, I don't really need to be specific about whether it hits more than 1 person or not. "Him falling off doesn't matter. Don't bring random points in. " Yes, it does matter. Fiora outscales basically anyone in the game in a 1v1 because of her kit/abilities whether she goes 0/10 or 10/0. "He gets a 6 second 30% damage reduction lategame. That sounds like a big deal to me" By this time the adc's will have their inf edge and possibly lord dominiks, so the 30% becomes almost negligible. You'll still die in 2-3 seconds. "I guess Darius's in lane sustain is broken too then?" Maybe not broken, but it's good, idk why you're acting like it's somehow worthless. "He can move at full movement speed while charging it up, it's kinda hard to hit on a player using a fraction of their brain if we're being honest." Camille's arc is much wider than Darius', making it easier to hit, but darius covers all 360 degrees. " I know you are going to misconstrue my words" Like you've been doing, since i have to keep reiterating what I'm saying because you come up with some random idea that you pulled out of your rear "but hey, you love to prove people wrong by using your sheer stupidity" It's funny that the only reason I even responded to you the first time was because you whined about the 'Ad hominem' attack, and yet in every post you're getting even more and more upset because you can't come up with a sound argument.
Razelth (NA)
: Huh, aoe? It only works for the first enemy hit by the parry. Its great you're showing you're arguing against something you have no knowledge of. I like how you emphasize full damage reduction. You mean the 0.75 second parry that doesn't parry damage from towers? Sounds like a FULL damage reduction to me. Garen W only lasts 2 seconds holy wow, that is such a small amount of time. AND only 6 seconds at max level? It also gives you free resists that up to 40 armor and magic resist wow. You mean Camille's in lane sustain that is countered by dodging her W? I guess Garen's passive that heals you by doing nothing isn't enough then. I fail to see how a 20% hp shield is better than 30% damage reduction for 2-6 seconds, 60% damage reduction and tenacity for the first 0.75 seconds, and 40 armor and magic resist by simply last hitting.
You're really bad at arguing, but I think it's fun to prove others that they're wrong. So here goes nothin Technically, yes Fiora's W is an AOE (It has an area of effect, it isn't a point and click) although it only affects one target. I didn't think I'd have to mention that since it's in lane and it's usually 1v1 (she's a duelist if you didn't know) " You mean the 0.75 second parry that doesn't parry damage from towers?" Again, we're comparing champions, so yes, I still count it as full damage reduction (Garen isn't a tower) "Garen W only lasts 2 seconds holy wow, that is such a small amount of time. AND only 6 seconds at max level?" If you still can't read, I said " only lasts 2 seconds total until you put more points into it at the end of the game." Now, as we know, Garen is supposed to be an early/mid champ, meaning he falls off and becomes kinda useless near the end of the game, which is when you get the 6 seconds at level 18. " free resists that up to 40 armor and magic resist wow." This is partially a lie, since Garen's armor per level was put down as well as his hp per level. Meaning even though it _sounds_ like you're getting a lot from his W passive, you're actually getting about 20 more armor, 40 magic resist (which is nice but doesn't really matter that much in lane), and 200 _less_ health compared to other juggernauts/bruisers "You mean Camille's in lane sustain that is countered by dodging her W?" She can move at full movement speed while charging it up, it's kinda hard to _miss_ if we're being honest "I guess Garen's passive that heals you by doing nothing isn't enough then." Level 1-10 (basically most of laning phase) Garen's passive is slightly less useful than a refillable potion, also, it's on a 9 second cooldown during any instance of champion damage he takes, so it's not even doing anything half the time. Also on top of that, like I said with his W, his base hp regen and regen per level is lower than other juggernauts because of his passive " I fail to see how a 20% hp shield is better than 30% damage reduction for 2-6 seconds, 60% damage reduction and tenacity for the first 0.75 seconds, and 40 armor and magic resist by simply last hitting." The tenacity is nice sometimes, but the cooldown on that shield goes down to 10 seconds, and it scales off max hp (which is good for Garen). So I'd get to use that shield twice as much as Garen's W, which would make his 1v1s and laning in general a lot easier.
Razelth (NA)
: People like Fiora and Camille also aren't champions designed to be a juggernaut archetype with one of the strongest damage reduction abilities while doing a decent amount of damage with one damage item.
His damage reduction barely lasts, and the only good part of it lasts .75 seconds. It has a 24 second cooldown and only lasts 2 seconds total until you put more points into it at the end of the game. I'd rather take fiora's FULL damage reduction/aoe attack speed/movespeed slow/cc redirection. I'd rather take Camille's in-lane sustain or her shield than Garen's W.
Zardo (NA)
: I'd say the only one with meaningful counterplay would be fiora. When playing against garen midgame, "just stay away from the spin 4Head" doesn't really work too well when he comes barreling at you at mach 4.
It actually works really well if you pay attention to what the most simple champion in the game actually does. It's a 1 time slow cleanse that only gives 30% movespeed (People like {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}} get upwards of 50% and they can proc it multiple times) It also doesn't go on cooldown until after he autos or the duration expires (4.5s). It's on a 8 second cooldown at all ranks, meaning if you slow him one time after he Q's (which is the only way he can get to you in the first place), he's out of commission for 12.5 seconds with no cdr (bare minimum would be about 9 seconds) But yea, if you just walk up marked and try to 1v1 him or something, I guess there's no counter play to pure stupidity
: Yeah, if only Vayne had to like keep attacking the target to get the TD, and only can attack the same target without it falling off, meaning if you bring multiple people she isn’t as effective. Oh wait.
_<Removed by Moderation>_ _Any_ champion sucks if there are more enemies, with maybe the only exception being {{champion:63}} . You can't say the weakness of Vayne is getting attacked by multiple people, because that isn't something that _you_ the player can do (You can't control everyone else's character) It's just a really poor argument.
: > [{quoted}](name=Baron Von Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-01-21T17:23:48.838+0000) > > &quot;Fiora can’t deal the true damage if she doesn’t hit those marks&quot; > > Fiora can&#x27;t do damage if she doesn&#x27;t hit you > > Well yea, thats basically how any champ works, the point is that she shoudn&#x27;t be able to take out 15-20% of your max hp each auto with no counter play to it Well, don’t let her hit your vitals. If she hits them, then it’s your fault, not the game. Stop her from hitting your vitals, and you stopped her engage completely. And if my words sound like bullshit to you, then play her in a ranked game and trample the opposition.
Vitals have no rotation based on your position, meaning you can't really do anything with them. You have to get lucky and hope the vital appears behind you while laning. However, outside of lane, if you two are just fighting, you can't really 'stop her from hitting your vitals', since she's got dash/auto attack specifically designed to hit vital marks. And no, if the vital is behind you, it doesn't stop her engage. Assuming she isn't ulting you (Which she will probably have up almost every time you get into a fight with her, cd is 110/90/70 with no cdr. Her Q's cooldown gets cut by 60% if she hits you with it, vital or not, meaning you can't stop her from chasing you. So, to be fair, it is the games fault a good percent of the time. It's literally a 25% chance that you'll be able to walk up on her without her having a chance to hit the vital. (Again, IN LANE. Outside of laning you can't stop her from hitting them)
: bounties broken
Well yea, it'd be nice, but there's always people to trash the party for everyone else {{champion:27}} {{champion:23}} These two basically just int their lanes in order to split push. If they win the lane, they stomp, if they lose the lane, they just split push and become a nuisance that's worth 50g because they're 0/8. Plus it also helps against people who basically hug tower and wait for late game so they can just win since they are now in the 'late' game {{champion:24}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:39}} I can't really think of another way to go around this, maybe riot will come up with something. But for now, it's basically all or nothing, either a few autist champs run around being op and you can't really do anything about it, or everyone gets hurt but now you can deal with them.
: Only Vayne and Fiora have it. Vayne is destroyed early, and Fiora can’t deal the true damage if she doesn’t hit those marks. Mundo and Volibear would run rampant if they did get rid of % true damage.
"Fiora can’t deal the true damage if she doesn’t hit those marks" Fiora can't do damage if she doesn't hit you Well yea, thats basically how any champ works, the point is that she shoudn't be able to take out 15-20% of your max hp each auto with no counter play to it
: Unpopular opinion: Assassins should never be viable
I just think they should find some balance by adding a lot more lethality to the items while decreasing the amount of ad. This way a 2/0 rengar/khaz can't run around one shotting _everyone_. (Same with flat magic pen for ap assassins) The people who build armor will be able to deal with them because their ad is lower and lethality sucks against armor. Assassin's jobs should be to take down a single target at a time with long cooldowns and short bursts, if you play well, you should be able to 100-0 someone who has no armor (magic resist for ap assassins, but you get the point). However, you shouldn't be able to consistently one shot everyone on the enemy team even if they build resists and/or you miss half your abilities.
: On the other hand ori doesnt have that much range, so if she runs out to throw Q-W´s then she runs the risk of being either shot back or having Darius run her down after dodigng her Q-W. Its the type of ability that works best when chased but is a bit worse when trying to poke as one has to step up a bit.....nor is her Q actually very quick when moving. Higher damage often means greater risks involved. As for marksmen trying to beat a Garen/darius 1v1 pre 6 items? Poor fellows have not played marksmen a lot if they think that´ll work :P Exceptions being like ....Vayne and tristana i guess but others should not be able to pull it off. But back to Darius and a 1v1 with a mage, the issue the mage faces is that they are glass cannons most of the time, once they are fired they cant really do anything for a while which thus makes a Darius surviving their shot and running them down to hit them even lightly a nearly insurmountable hurdle. Even if he doesnt have more magic resistance then a pair of merc boots he still has enough health to facetanka combo or two and just bulldoze ahead ignoring the mage´s feeble attempts at self protection, and cloth&skin isnt a good protection against a giant axe x)
Well, right. A mage shouldn't be trying to 1v1 a juggernaut, especially if you know they have something like a deadmans/righteous glory. The bruiser class is basically created to be good in 1v1 scenarios. You take a beating and you give a beating, but since you aren't that mobile, you become weaker in teamfights where the mages/adc's have protection (supposed to be tanks, but nobody plays them) and thus deal a lot more damage from a longer distance.
: Lol ya there goes 1/4th of Darius's HP and then she cant do it again for 5+ seconds. Too bad Darius would could easily kill her in that amount time. So according to you its overpowered to take a large chunk of someones health bar ever 5 seconds without having the ability to kill them, but its perfectly balanced for a bruiser to just straight up kill you within 3 seconds. Amazes me people like you cry about mage damage when its gated by cooldowns. No mage can one combo a bruiser but bruisers easily one combo mages while easily surviving all their damage. As a mage you're dead before your cooldowns are back up unless you heavily poke them down before they get on you.
See, you're missing something _REALLY_ big and _REALLY_ obvious. Mages don't build defensive/hp items, bruisers do. Yes, an orianna with no magic pen shouldn't be doing 1/4 hp of a bruiser with 2 basic low cooldown abilities. A bruiser is going to have near double or triple a mages hp and definitely a lot more resistances. Plus, a mages job isn't to kill people in melee range. If you're in melee range of a bruiser, you're going to get your a$$ handed to you. O yea, I gotta make some ambiguous toxic remark to act like I'm winning the argument: "Amazes me people like you are completely ignorant of the basics of the game like HP and resistances, and on the actual functionality of different roles, like bruisers winning in melee and mages winning in ranged." Edit: I also never said Orianna was overpowered, im just simply stating what she does. If a mage can chunk you from far away that hard, why shouldn't a melee based bruiser be able to chunk you in melee range?
: > [{quoted}](name=Baron Von Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aEo0RcEl,comment-id=0003000100000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-18T14:52:21.137+0000) > > &quot;They will only play such a boring champion to gain ELO.&quot; > > Try getting diamond with Garen, I dare you. You&#x27;ll hate yourself. > > &quot;you can even predict and outplay his silence&quot; > > Garen literally walks at you in a straight line, how can you not predict/outplay that? > > &quot;And I also said that building MR vs him is not a good idea&quot; > > Buying a ninja tabis is enough to basically bend over Garen&#x27;s damage output, espeically in lane. He won&#x27;t be able to get you low enough to ult before he dies. > > &quot;Garen is a champion with no mechanics and if you play him 2000 games you will never do something new.&quot; > > Just like I said with getting to Diamond with Garen. It is _because_ this champion is so lackluster that you _have_ to do something new. You need to learn to properly manage waves, you can&#x27;t smash your face on the keyboard to win, since most other laners will bend you over with their superior kits, you _need_ map awareness, since ganking a Garen is one of the easiest things to do in this game, etc. > > &quot;with deeper personalities and interesting past rather than &quot;the guy of justice&quot;&quot; > > People like big guys with big swords. Will Ninja Tabis help with the magic damage of his ult? You at least need a hexdrinker to survive a champion who is supposed to deal physical damage. Right after the crit rework, people replaced ADC bot with mages, so most team comps had no DPS. Then this happened: https://boards.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/cQeYE4AX-the-most-noob-champ-has-54-win-rate-in-diamond He was busted to the point he was the 5th most picked toplaner in Diamond+. So, yes people did abuse him in Diamond and masters. Now? They are playing another big guy with massive sword and 2 wings. He ia called Aatrox. If people liked Garen, they would stick with him because he is not weak now even in high elo statistically.
One of the only reasons he was picked so much is because he did well against jax, irelia, and pre-buffed aatrox. He was a counter to these guys who are picked a lot in higher elo top lane. And no, ninja tabi's doesn't help with his ult. But it makes it a LOT harder for Garen to get you into execute range. His only two damage abilities are an auto attack and his spin. Most champions are mobile enough to stay out of his E range, and since his Q is an auto attack, and most Garen players max it, being able to take off 12% of it's damage plus your own armor reduction severely reduces his damage output.
: True Darius cant do alot about that combo on his own, however i´d argue that ori is hopelessly outmatched if Darius has merc boots and deadman/rightous glory which he can get a bit later on. At that point it wont matter what ori does as Darius can just run her down and facetank anything she does........which is pretty the fate of any mage to compensate for the ability to act from a distance and hide behind a frontline. Of course Darius could if faced with a predicament like laning against ori probably do the same thing as that NA master´s Garen does against ranged and just roll predator or something and win that way since they cant really outrun that either.
Right, Juggernauts main weakness is mobility. They are tough and they dish out a lot of damage, but are very slow and immobile, that's their niche. So if you slap mobility on them, you're gonna have a bad time. Not every champion is supposed to be able to 1v1 another champion. If you've got 2-3 people mid from each side, and orianna keeps throwing out that Q+W, she's going to do a lot more than Darius than if she were just in a 1v1 scenerio with him. Or what I tend to see personally is that an adc will try to stop me (playing garen) from pushing by themselves. Funny enough it never works out for them since I'm a level or two higher, ive already got armor, and my entire design is to blow up squishies. Plus deadmans/RG are both armor items, and it's usually like a 3rd/4th item on Darius (Tri-Steraks-Deadmans), so you could potentially still 1v1 him if you play correctly.
: > [{quoted}](name=Baron Von Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aEo0RcEl,comment-id=00030001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-18T14:19:05.761+0000) > > I love how you picked Cho gath out of all champions to lineup against Garen. Cho has a better silence, it&#x27;s AOE, and his ult does roughly the same damage when the enemy is at 100% hp versus Garen ulting someone at 50%. > > Edit: We&#x27;re also assuming that the person Garen is ulting is the villain, whilst Cho&#x27;Gath _always_ does true, meaning he can Gargoyle+Ult your adc/other squishy carry in _every_ fight > > Also, if you&#x27;re a squishy, especially an adc, and you let Garen get on top of you, it&#x27;s most likely your fault. > > Plus if Garen can&#x27;t reach his target as soon as he enters the fight, he just gets kited and killed within a few seconds. > > > > P.S, Garen is a fun champion concept. His design isn&#x27;t that great, but he&#x27;s got a lot more personality than a furry runt, hence why people like him (Plus I&#x27;m sure a lot of new players find the beginner champions, which is basically just Garen and Mundo at this point, to be more favorable than someone like Gnar). I picked Chogath because he is maybe the only champion that can reach that huge amount of HP. I didn't talk about his kit at all so comparing him to Garen diesn't concern me. But if you insist, Chogath is centered around hitting a delayed skillshot (Q) and you can even predict and outplay his silence because it's not point and click either. I actually mentioned that Garen does magic damage if the enemy is not a villian. And I also said that building MR vs him is not a good idea. Can you argue with that? His personality has nothing to do with game play. Garen is a champion with no mechanics and if you play him 2000 games you will never do something new. Gnar has 2 forms, rage bar, and 6 abilities. It's so satisfying to make playes with him (that 4 man ult to the wall maybe). And even if looking at personality, there are many champions with deeper personalities and interesting past rather than "the guy of justice". There are tons of mechanically easy champions that give more satisfiction playing them. Champions thatcan actually change games and make playes (even Annie if she can get a 4 man stun in a team fight). People do get bored. They will only play such a boring champion to gain ELO.
"They will only play such a boring champion to gain ELO." Try getting diamond with Garen, I dare you. You'll hate yourself. "you can even predict and outplay his silence" Garen literally walks at you in a straight line, how can you not predict/outplay that? "And I also said that building MR vs him is not a good idea" Buying a ninja tabis is enough to basically bend over Garen's damage output, espeically in lane. He won't be able to get you low enough to ult before he dies. "Garen is a champion with no mechanics and if you play him 2000 games you will never do something new." Just like I said with getting to Diamond with Garen. It is _because_ this champion is so lackluster that you _have_ to do something new. You need to learn to properly manage waves, you can't smash your face on the keyboard to win, since most other laners will bend you over with their superior kits, you _need_ map awareness, since ganking a Garen is one of the easiest things to do in this game, etc. "with deeper personalities and interesting past rather than "the guy of justice"" People like big guys with big swords.
: That damage doesnt seem quite normal for a unfed ori tho at that level, maxed Q does 180 and basic W does 60, before resistances, so even if you pump in a ton of AP it would take a tremendous lot of it and magic pen to hit 400-500. The selling point is low cooldown and combo potential into ulti as well as passive autos, as well as landing Q ensures landing W.
I said level 9, at which point you probably have ludens (many ori's get it first item) You've probably got about 100 AP (ludens+dorans ring+any adaptive damage, i just picked 100 for easy math,technically it'd be more) Most bruisers (top/jg) are probably not building magic resist (I'll take Darius, very common bruiser, who has 40mr [39% dmg reduction] level 9) Q = 180+(50) = 230 W = 105+(70) = 175 Ludens = 100+(10) = 110 Summon Aery = 24+(10) = 34 230+175+110+34 = 549 before resist ---> 39% dmg reduction --> 378 So assuming you put in the extra ap and possibly other secondary runes you have on, you can easily hit 400+ damage with a Q+W level 9 Edit: There goes about 1/4 of Darius' hp from a low cooldown ranged ability which he can't really do anything about since it outranges his E and also slows him
Show more

Baron Von Garen

Level 171 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion