Epimyth (NA)
: > TL;DR, most jungle camps will be worth less experience early, but the Rift Scuttler will be worth a lot more. The jungler who can win the fight for River Crab TL;DR the strongest level 2 Jungler or the strongest early push mid/rotation on the team will have a HUGE advantage. You're going to limit the viability of junglers with weak level 2 if you do this. Seriously a bad move that you know you will in fact have to change in the future. Why make us suffer in the meantime? I've really been wondering about the design team as of late, this change can be immediately seen as **a bad idea** and Riot doesn't seem to care...
Win scuttle win game. GG
: put bone plating and chrysalis on the same row instead of nerf pls
they both fill a similar role in protecting early laning. if they are in the same row, then one will be picked more often then the other by hitting X threshold of effectiveness.
: What they don't get is that the design of Zoe is the problem, not the numbers. You nerf her Q, she's trash. You don't, she's OP. Zoe needs to be reworked, or should not have been released with this kit in the first place. Safe call: Zoe will never feel balanced until her kit is reworked.
> [{quoted}](name=Ayanami3rd,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vkPxhvEr,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-02-18T09:49:24.950+0000) > > What they don't get is that the design of Zoe is the problem, not the numbers. You nerf her Q, she's trash. You don't, she's OP. Zoe needs to be reworked, or should not have been released with this kit in the first place. > > Safe call: Zoe will never feel balanced until her kit is reworked. Unfortunately it's just power creep game design tbh
: We've talked about this as a potential risk. Likely lever we'd pull back on is the ap values, but really there's a lot we can tune there to keep it from being a must buy in mid. Situational is fine, but not every game
Now that supports don't have to sink 800 gold into sightstone perhaps Twin Shadows can use a price bump. For example, support brand rushing Liandry's is 3100 gold. With that Twin Shadows in the picture, it becomes a no brainer for previous Frost Queen Claim users. There is alot more ambient gold in season 8. Support are getting more gold then ever now.
: Reduce cost by 400 Reduce flat AP bonus by 10 That would fix it without breaking it.
Are you using the TI 89 graphing calculator for these numbers?
DeviIos (EUW)
: > We definitely explored reducing the cost of deathcap, but ultimately felt it was more fitting as a late game fantasy item for a large AP multiplier. That's fine, but a late game fantasy item needs a better buildpath. Late game means, there are little slots available for the components of the last item. In most cases you have to sit on around 2000 gold or sometimes even more, to finish your deathcap because you have no slot left for another component of it (e.g. NLR) Fighting a late game teamfight with 2000 gold in your pocket doesn't feel right. I should be allowed to spent my gold somehow when I got a lead through the mid game to the late game.
One might argue that the player could choose a better build path that will optimize that price / inventory space cost so that he buys Deathcap in the window of the game that he doesn't have to build it last item with only 1 slot to work with. See with Deathcap how it is right now, its an interesting choice between getting it done early where it rewards less AP and finishing it last were it rewards more AP. Finding the right buying window is key. I would say right now it rewards snowbally item building, it punishes gold starved / full inventory item builders. The game balancing question I would like to offer is: Is Deathcap getting crowded out as a worse 3rd or 4th item choice by the other AP Items?
Rioter Comments
: Patch 7.24 notes
I know this is a cosmetic change, but i really take issue with renekton's slice and dice icon. i feel like the old one was a perfect image for that ability. the new one doesn't look as clear as the original one. feels downgrade man
: Promoting Stealth Gameplay - How Wards Help & Harm The Vision Game (Response To Riot Maple Nectar)
So one way to implement this currently is to let stealth wards only keep their invisibility when they are are outside of bushes, but wards that are in bushes become visible. Here's my reasoning why, usually when you place wards outside of bush, they don't get a nice 360 view, they become more like a cone like you said, and fail more when outside the brush. I do agree that bush control is a big advantage so thats why trading the ward's invisibility to put it there might be a fair cost. All theory crafting aside, it's just hard to change the current dynamic of face checking since its such a long standing tradition of the game. This is such an interesting topic, that I believe requires alot of playtesting through custom game modes or minigames because the vision rules create so much impact on gameplay balance. Just the redefining of champion stealth last preseason was a huge game changer. You are probably right that there is room for improvement in the ward system, but i'm sure they are little nuggets of gold that are hard to fine and changes will come slowly.
: Well, I personally believe that would come with risk-reward, albeit in a very simple case. They show themselves on the map to make a possible play, which creates a risk of letting the enemy jungler know your cs count, the reward being determined by how successful the gank was.
Good point. I see that them showing for a gank gives me the opportunity to counter jungle. The only difference now that this change proposes, is that if I am SOLEY relying on the cs scoreboard, I won't be 100% sure which camp in their jg is up for grabs, which I think is fair, because you didn't spend any time (walking your champ through their jg) or resources (wards, ability cooldowns) to get that advantageous information. League of Legends is an information incomplete game. Information has a value and therefore should have a cost. I think being able to see roughly how many camps the enemy jg took (using multiple of 4s) is a much fairer trade off for showing for a gank then being able to know precisely which camps he started (using the current cs model).
: if i may, isn't you using the fact that he showed himself to deduce a route a skill? As you say, you get his cs number because he showed on the map. it's, and this is a stretch example but it may prove my point, taking his botside jungle because he showed top. is that not just abusing him showing on the map? As i see it, it is a mental skill that should remain, as it helps those who have the awareness to see when the jungler appears (reason being if you count the cs when he had showed, but hasn't shown for 20, its naturally very different. it would reward you if you noticed when he showed as well as where later on). While in theory i see where you are coming from, as it makes sense, tracking by sticking your head in the enemy jungle sometimes, its not that you dont do this, but you, by paying attention, doing some mental math, and some deductive reasoning based on location, minimizes risk based on your ability to count and calculate the camps done. Some may say it is good that the risk can no longer be minimized, but i feel like jungle turns into mind games at a high level and slight advantages as a whole, and the idea behind minimizing risks and maximizing rewards is kinda the role as a whole. I've also seen how some people say this is akin to buff timer changes, which i can see their perspective as well. The major difference i see is that for one, it doesn't affect the whole route or entire jungle, which is my own personal take on it, but that could have nothing to do with it. i also believe that buff timers, since they're only given if you saw them take it. it doesnt really affect too much, and i'll admit, a lot of junglers overreacted. Right now, junglers counting cs and calculating camps isn't just to be like, oh we can counterjungle these camps, but it's also similar to following a laner's roam, but between junglers. instead of seeing which direction they went and looking at where they could be going, we look at the jungler's cs and determine where he could be going, based on his route. I see it as an skill that needs to be refined (to allow you to do the math while keeping track of everything else) and learned over time (due to game knowledge) similar to how some challenger laners can keep track of enemy exp through minions, which is a skill, but also just math and game knowledge, just like counting cs to tell which camps.
I appreciate your thoughtful rational reply. I will say, I'm still convinced that cs counting is NOT an interesting skill for League of Legends. I still think that "tracking" a jungler should involve your team's units' vision and the usage of vision tools and abilities. Since League of Legends is an information incomplete game, information has a value, and therefore accordingly, information should have a cost (whether it be time, resources, cooldowns, unit risk, etc). For instance, imagine a RTS game like Age of Empires. Imagine being able to deduce enemy's location in fog of war, not because you used your units effectively, but rather you used games scores, which are tracked by a central game counter. Is that fair? Should players be taught this in a game play tutorial? Without that game counter, you could not deduce this advantageous information. Sure, this creates a meta game among advanced players where they try to minimize showing themselves so the enemy can't see their score and gather information, but that meta game just supports a play style of avoiding interaction with the enemy. While there's nothing wrong with being sneaky, when the game grants advantages for free or encourages players to avoid each other just because of a game score, the game play becomes lame, IMO. In ANY case, why not use your champion's field of vision, vision tools, and vision abilities to gather information and make decisions? Isn't it more rewarding and fair when players use what's provided in the game rather than on the scoreboard? In my opinion, THIS video highlights perfectly what I think jungle tracking should be like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYE40oohxb4 Watch Zirene breakdown SKT's coordinated team effort to shutdown the enemy jungler, using their skills, tools, and knowledge IN GAME.
Kei143 (NA)
: Then is tracking flash timers , ult CDs, or when tryd's / zilean's ult expire a skill? To me that's a similar argument.
Yes. It's a similar skill to tracking jg routes through cs. However i find tracking ultimates and flashes acceptable because your team saw it happen and it's up to you to track it. The important disctinction to note is that being gifted knowledge with what enemy jg camps are taken without having vision is not a worthwhile gameplay mechanic imo.
Gixia (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=A Dastardly Lime,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=24K8ORZQ,comment-id=0008000000000002,timestamp=2017-10-25T08:05:53.406+0000) > > Because there are millions of players that do not do this, and by simply paying attention to MORE things and information, you get an advantage. Its a skill because you can figure out what camps they have up, what camps they will take next. If they back or stay, how much time you have, will they respond with a gank or keep farming? can those camps be stolen if they go for something that doesnt give them much in return? Then you can figure out the next clear timers, and steal the camps AGAIN. The threat of this also forces junglers to go for ganks and invades much more carefully. A careless gank gives them no kills or no summoners blown, and they lose XP and gold for it. If they get something out of it, the opposing jungler has a chance of responding, rather than sitting with his dick in his hand with no camps up, and no lanes to gank. > > This is something that is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for scaling junglers, who prefer to avoid fights with early game junglers. They have the advantage of being able to gank more freely, and are snowballing and winning the game single handedly before you can even do anything as the scaling jungler. You CAN check the CS, know raptors are up, steal those, and close the gap, then close it again 2:30m later, and again, so you arent needing to wait for 30minutes to come online as something like Sejuani Yi Shyvana. Its skillful because its a punishment. The same can be said about certain lane matchups where if you count your CS, and the other guys CS, you can know what item they will buy for their champion, and that can change your build path, AND you can tell your jungler or mid 'come top when i get back in 30seconds from base' and co-ordinate something to punish a greedy unsafe purchase. Same idea in bot lane too, if you know they get a BF sword and you dont, you could lose the lane super hard, so you can lane swap. These arguments sound awfully similar to the arguments against buff spawn timers back when those were added to the game. It didn't break the game then, it won't break it now. While your ability to do math on the fly *is* a skill, not all skills have equal value. > Play the actual game known as League of Legends, not your fancified bullshit hoping it fits the gamestate eventually. Funny thing is, the version of League of Legends you describe didn't always exist, and will soon be non-existant again. The jungle changes drastically every single year. Change IS the gamestate, and either you roll with it and adapt, or you throw a temper tantrum because your fancified bullshit no longer fits. > EDIT: > Lanes and jungle are different, but they have similarities. If a laner takes a trade and loses it, they get punished by being zoned from CS, and possibly ganked. Jungle is the exact same thing, but the jungler made a bad gank which was never going to work because of champion mechanics and ward timings, and so the other jungler comes in and punishes, zoning from CS by stealing camps. Removing this drops the skill ceiling Oh? I wasn't aware counterjungling was being removed by making enemy jungle camps untargetable. Oh wait, it's not being removed? Then I guess the skill ceiling isn't being dropped. > and is rewarding people for being bad, and not using the information given to them. Alternative perspective: Bad players are no longer rewarded by being given information at no cost.
: Your enemy junglers don't even know what camps they have taken. Yet, there are people that play the game for a living that use this extensively and constantly as a fundamental part of jungling that has been in the game for years. "Poking your head around the jg" doesn't fucking happen when you actually play against decent players because it's incredibly risky and very likely to get you completely shit on or half your jungle taken on the other side. Yes, plat players don't punish you for doing this, congrats. Not everyone is bad. You don't use it. So be quiet. The reasoning for the change is complete nonsense. The reasoning for jungle timers at least had the reasoning of putting it in because 3rd party applications were doing it anyway.
1. I do use this trick. 2. You never provided logical reasoning for why this change is nonsense. 3. Why should players be gifted the information of which routes the enemy jungler took through cs, when they did absolutely nothing to get it. The enemy shows on the map and that is why you get to know his cs number and deduce which camps he took? IN MY OPINION, that's lame because I think real tracking is getting vision in the game.
: Because it is a skill lol and it is a huge part of the game. If i look at the enemy jg and I see 5 i get way more info than just the number 5. I get what camps they cleared so I know which are up for one and for second I know what his path will be after he backs because of what camps will be up based on his score.
I understand that the number 5 can tell you exactly what camps he cleared. What I am arguing is, why should you receive that number 5? What did you do to receive that number in game? Nothing, you were gifted it just because the enemy showed on the map, not because you actually went out to find out for yourself.
: > I disagree that tracking enemy junglers by cs score is a skill. How is doing math while pressing tab "tracking" the enemy jungler? Because there are millions of players that do not do this, and by simply paying attention to MORE things and information, you get an advantage. Its a skill because you can figure out what camps they have up, what camps they will take next. If they back or stay, how much time you have, will they respond with a gank or keep farming? can those camps be stolen if they go for something that doesnt give them much in return? Then you can figure out the next clear timers, and steal the camps AGAIN. The threat of this also forces junglers to go for ganks and invades much more carefully. A careless gank gives them no kills or no summoners blown, and they lose XP and gold for it. If they get something out of it, the opposing jungler has a chance of responding, rather than sitting with his dick in his hand with no camps up, and no lanes to gank. This is something that is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for scaling junglers, who prefer to avoid fights with early game junglers. They have the advantage of being able to gank more freely, and are snowballing and winning the game single handedly before you can even do anything as the scaling jungler. You CAN check the CS, know raptors are up, steal those, and close the gap, then close it again 2:30m later, and again, so you arent needing to wait for 30minutes to come online as something like Sejuani Yi Shyvana. Its skillful because its a punishment. The same can be said about certain lane matchups where if you count your CS, and the other guys CS, you can know what item they will buy for their champion, and that can change your build path, AND you can tell your jungler or mid 'come top when i get back in 30seconds from base' and co-ordinate something to punish a greedy unsafe purchase. Same idea in bot lane too, if you know they get a BF sword and you dont, you could lose the lane super hard, so you can lane swap. There is a reason why the best way to gank is at the end of your path. It minimizes chance of counter jungling. It makes best use of the time until the first camp respawn, and with better pathing choices, you can be in certain places at certain times, as well as, if you count the CS, come in to a gank at the same time as the enemy jungler, and win the 2v2 or 3v3. Anyone that says CS counting isnt skillful or is dumb, is someone who doesnt use it to their advantage, and is probably some hardstuck trash that shouldnt gain ELO because you just want to camp and gank your duo queue's lane over and over and expect it to go well and unpunished and win the game. Play the actual game known as League of Legends, not your fancified bullshit hoping it fits the gamestate eventually. EDIT: Lanes and jungle are different, but they have similarities. If a laner takes a trade and loses it, they get punished by being zoned from CS, and possibly ganked. Jungle is the exact same thing, but the jungler made a bad gank which was never going to work because of champion mechanics and ward timings, and so the other jungler comes in and punishes, zoning from CS by stealing camps. Removing this drops the skill ceiling and is rewarding people for being bad, and not using the information given to them. Also encouraging people to not worry about revealing that information so much.
1st paragraph: I understand that millions of players do it. I am arguing that making the deductions should come from information you earned not just handed to you. I can do the same counter jungling you described with a tracker's knife and no math. I COULD use math, but it's outside of the game and (IN MY OPINION) it's lame that people use information that they gained for free despite the fact they are still doing 'work' to do the math and make the deductions. I praise the work, but I would like the information to be earned not given. 2nd Scaling junglers can still punish ganking junglers when this change goes through. Sure, you aren't MORE certain because you can no longer rely on CS numbers, but a good player can still keep tabs on an enemy's probable routes through last known whereabouts. 3rd I agree with you here. 4th You are lashing out to opinion's that don't agree with yours. Not much of an argument here, other than hasty generalizations and emotions. I don't see how this new change will take away from punishing jungler's through counterjungling. Anyways either way, I don't think me and you will ever see eye to eye on this no matter what we say.
: Because it is given to you, and just because you're incapable of using the knowledge and just do simple 1+1 maths doesn't mean others don't use it to obtain information, and according to your logic, then is Ashe and Quinn also should be removed as their E and W skill offers vision INTO the enemy jungler with 0 effort except pressing E/W. compared to pressing tab then you run math
1) You're attacking my character. I'm a programmer. I am more than capable of doing the math. In fact, I am capable of writing a script that would do the math for me and mark his camps as potentially taken or not, not just early game but whenever I notice x cs differential that matches enemy camps every time he comes out of fog of war. 2) Ashe and Quinn IS in-game effort. You are using a basic ability. Ashe's hawkshot is a charged skill shot. Quinn's aoe vision has a large cooldown. These are part of their kits and they have specific reasons for why they have those basic abilities instead of just another damaging attack, and knowing when to use these vision skills, requires more game knowledge and skill then just doing math on information gained for free.
Siqsa (EUW)
: Came here to say this. That change is absolutely terrible. Good junglers are constantly pressing tab to figure out what camps the enemy jungler has taken. It's HUGE part of counter jungling and keeping track of camp timers. No one is actively saying 'Woah, Yi has 25 cs and I have 5, HOW?'. We all know he took krugs or raptors etc.
I disagree that tracking enemy junglers by cs score is a skill. How is doing math while pressing tab "tracking" the enemy jungler? You put 0 in-game effort or risk into gaining this information, why should you be able to deduce his early game route? The only reason why you got his cs number is because he showed on the map. I believe actual tracking should involve you poking your head in his jg to see if his camps are up or taken while using wards / vision plants.
: Catch-Up Experience and Jungle Changes in 7.22
Am I the only person who disagrees with the opinion that tracking enemy junglers by cs score is a skill? How is doing math while pressing tab "tracking" the enemy jungler? You put 0 in-game effort into gaining this information, why should you be able to deduce his early game route? The only reason why you got his cs number is because he showed on the map. Actual tracking involves you poking your head in his jg to see if his camps are up or taken while using wards / vision plants. I think it's a fine change thats a huge improvement for spectators and for players to gauge the number of camps taking between junglers.
: Why does Kled get a huge free heal every 5-10 seconds?
You need to kite Kled when he is dismounted until you are sure you can burst him down. Understand that when he is without skarrl, he is very slow (the slowest champion in the game) and the only thing he'll want to do is auto attack you to get Skarrl back. Don't try to fight him with his W back up, if you freely let him gain courage and remount you're in for a bad time.
sketchy1 (NA)
: any good tips for a lux main?
Rioter Comments
: Runes Reforged: Picking your playstyle
I'm really liking the overall runes reforged system. The whole store credit / debt thing though, really caught me by surprise and I think it's a poor design for a rune. Getting into debt? Is that really a pre game choice to make? Even if it weren't a rune and every had the choice to use store credit I still don't see this as an interesting part of the game, only more confusing and a trap for lower skill levels. I don't really see this as a fun meaningful choice that pushes the game forward strategically in a healthy way. If the whole enemy team goes into debt they can just pay it all back with one shutdown. I don't know to me it seems cheesy and I wouldn't want to see it as a rune. I think this idea spoils some of the potential for the runes reforged system. Does anybody else like it?
: This one change would really make me love this game again. Bringing Ekko back.
the reason why they won't buff jungle ekko is because his ganks feel bad for the enemy laners. put yourself in their shoes. the ekko w from fog of war is hard to deal with especially with just a little gank assistance to make it hit more reliable. i too love ekko he is my main champ, but i can see the reasons why they aren't making ekko jg a priority. his ganks are pretty binary he either hits the w and they die or he doesnt and they live.
Shahamut (NA)
: the attack speed scaling already exists, so there is no change there. The moving of the starting point on windwall would be the most complicated part. Telling the wall to "not grow anymore" would be easy, and changing the duration from fixed to scaling is no major feat either. Moving his shield over to W, and essentially changing the way it works and adding new coding to create exceptions to a defined variable is a TON more work just considering how many champions there are in the game.
It would be an extra flag to only the ultimates that currently interact with windwall. So ~30 ultimate abilities. i'll give you that
: Incomplete Yasso Analysis
I actually offered some changes to the flow passive in a post I made an hour ago here : https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JysRjr0p-2-fair-yasuo-game-balancing-changes-without-changing-his-abilities)
Takazaki (NA)
: > One example is Kled. He needs to be mounted to use his ultimate. Also, some other conditions for other champions' is mana. You can't deny that it cost them resources. Another condition could be it requires a target. Like Akali's dash.. She can't dash away unless she's dashing toward an enemy. Usually she's using it to her advantage but still it's a condition she might not want to meet all the time. Rek sai has to mark her target first. Also, other's champions ultimates could be skill shots and the condition is hitting them. Like Cass won't stun if she doesn't ult you while you are looking at her. Kled stacks HP and runs TP. further mroe his ult is an engage, if he is unmounted the fight has already started. this si really a bad example. the reasoure cost isnt the issue here is cooldowns as you stated 3 or so times. so mentioning this has little value compounded by the fact the complaint is toward blocking an ult which means resource isn't an issue. Akali has the same condition as yasuo E and her ult was complained about when she was meta. secondly its a condition yes, but so is yasuo's E but that doesnt stop people calling it a free dash. and its 3 times so less conditional then yasuo ult which takes 1-2 seconds to charge late game and up to 4-6 seconds early game not to mention since they nerfed his tornado hold time he has even less time to attemptt to hit rather then being able to hold it and have a decent amount of time to use his ult. reksai has a gap closer and a long range skill shot that both proc it. cassi is even a worse example because she can still use her ult let me restate this **i have gone entire games as yasuo unable to ult because i was never given the chance to, every single champion you listed can ult when ever they feel like for the most part regardless of its actual impact** > The fact is that it negates another champion's ability which comes at a much bigger cost. That's basically it. Yasuo can windwall 2-5x before the enemy's ultimate ability comes up and he doesn't spend mana. {{champion:164}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:26}} a hand full of champions that can do the very same thing. untargetability/immortality do exactly way windwall does and more. some of them dont spend mana. mana is use to gate champions from spamming not to justify an abilities power. {{champion:38}} which is why his ability is spamable but also increasingly costing him more mana. > But I could argue that Sivir, Braum, and Noc doesn't have the same mobility to complement that block spell. Also, as far as spell shields go they require better timing than yasuo's, especially because his windwall cast is very forgiving coming from the center of the model. no you couldnt because yasuo mobility is conditional and targeted, only bruam shares this with him but his wall can be moved to a better position because of it. sivir passive and R are not condition noc Q isnt conditional noc R reaches almost 1/3 of the map. again wrong on the forgiving cast. yasuo ult onyl block behind for a very short duration whilst spell shield will block till its proc'd further more spell shield on both noc and sivir are both shorter then WW CD.
I like your 2nd argument the best. Your first point feels weak sauce. Sure maybe you went a whole game with out it, but then again you missed all your Qs. Also, most champions in the game have knock ups so there you go now you don't even need to hit your Q. Again, that condition isn't really that hard to meet. You can't say his ultimate is a crutch. You don't even need it half the time, it only makes Yasuo's job much sweeter. And I don't think we see eye to eye about the 3rd point. I do agree with you that his image is worse than the other champions and he gets alot more grief.
Shahamut (NA)
: Actually, coding wise, mine is much simpler to do. You are changing how several mechanics work and also where things exist in the kit. New things, like what you suggest, will always take more man hours to test and balance properly because they are new and have no previous data to jump start things. Someone else has also pointed out the clarity issue in not blocking ults. Not trying to be rude or anything, just some counter points to what you said. > they strayed away from my goals of not making changes to his kit Is this how you actually intended to write this? because I changed less of his kit...? or did you mean your goal of changing his kit?
of not making changes. I mean for one changing passive to w is arbitrary. the hardest change i suggested was flagging ultimate projectiles as unblocked from windwall.. Your changes include attack speed scaling, changing the cast animation starting point of the wall, the size of the wall. So guess you win from that standpoint because those are already defined variables in the existing system?
Shahamut (NA)
: This would change none of his actual gameplay pattern and thus none of his frustration. It WOULD increase Yasuo player frustration when they throw up windwall and an airborn rocket flies right through it, or an arrow, etc. That is a level of inconsistency that would be rediculous. Better ideas: Q: Steel Tempest____ Cooldown: 8/7/6/5/4 After 0.54 - 0.18 (based on bonus attack speed) seconds-delay, Yasuo thrusts his sword, dealing physical damage to all enemies in the target direction and granting Gathering Storm upon dealing damage. Yasuo can hold Gathering Storm for up to 10 seconds. Steel Tempest can critically strike for 75% damage and applies on-hit effects to the first target hit. Casting Steel Tempest after Sweeping Blade affects enemies around Yasuo instead. SECOND CAST - STEEL WIND RISING: As Steel Tempest, but if Yasuo has "gathering storm" he gains instead "gathered storm" and can hold it for up to 8 seconds. THIRD CAST - GATHERED STORM: Yasuo consumes the stack of Gathered Strom to unleash a whirlwind that travels an increased distance in the target direction, dealing the same damage and knocking airborne all enemies hit. Steel Tempest's knockup does not gain increased range when cast during Sweeping Blade. This ability is not affected by cooldown reduction but instead is reduced by attacks speed to a cap. Summary: Increase early cooldown on Q (still reduced by attack speed), give Yasuo players 10 seconds to gain "gathered storm" but only 8 seconds to use it once they have gathered it. (I would reduce it to 6, but then he wouldnt be able to use the tornado till level 3 or possibly even 5) What does this do? Early game, Yasuo has fewer AA/Q combos, fewer tornado zoning opportunities, fewer opportunities to harass from range, and fewer free knock up trades. This reduces his lane presence by granting larger windows of opportunity for his opponents to play against him. W: Windwall____Cooldown: 26 / 23 / 20 / 17 / 14_____TARGET RANGE: 225 (same overall distance, now spawns at his melee range rather than in his model) ACTIVE: Yasuo slashes his sword forward to creates a gust of wind that travels in the target direction over 0.25 seconds to form a wall in front of him. The wall slowly drifts forward 50 units over the duration, blocking all enemy projectiles except turret attacks. Duration: 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds. Makes windwall less oppressive with the greatly reduced duration, and more skill oriented since he has to A) react a bit quicker and B) Cast in the right direction. EDIT: Forgot to mention, windwall size is fixed at live rank 2 (or 3?) and does not get bigger with range. Power to be shifted elsewhere. But these changes would actually reduce his frustration levels.
Although you think that your changes are subjectively better (and I agree that again these changes might be), they strayed away from my goals of not making changes to his kit. They are much harder to test and take more man hours to recode than mine. So, yes, even if your changes are "better" they came at a much higher cost and complexity. Just pointing it out. Yin and yang. P.S. I am trying to reduce Yasuo's enemies' frustrations not Yasuo's frustrations. He can still dash away from rockets and stuff.
: I don't think moving that passive to his W is a bad idea, but the additional suggested tweaks all have something "irk" about them. The first tweak feels redundant and makes both shields feel bad since he is forced to use both at once. It would sent the signal of "why do I need to block the projectile if I have a dmg shield" or "why do I have a dmg shield if I blocked what was coming. It's kinda like when Azir E used to give a shield _and_ knockup. "Why the shield if they're ccd?" so it got removed. The second tweak makes it so he has an extra layer even once his ww is baited out. It feels bad for the opponent since they are already down a spell. You'd also end up with strange situations where using W on nothing is optimal in lane before going for a trade. <---would be hilarious, don't get me wrong :P The third tweak _sounds fine at first glance_ but then you realize it punishes Yasuos that dodge stuff with E and save their W for emergencies/the perfect moment. Unless I'm missing something of course, as you said it leaves a lot open to interpretation. -------------------- Second change "Doesn't block any ultimates" is too blanket and nuanced for people to keep track of. Either it blocks projectiles, or it doesn't. Anything beyond that fuzzies communication of the gameplay mechanic (exception is lasers, which still sometimes gets asked about on the boards---rarely though) The burden of knowledge on players (playing as Yasuo and vs him) would be too large for the second change to be done. Examples: does it block Twitch autos when ulted? Vayne's? How about Udyr R aoe proc? ------------ Personally, I think they should attack the double crit passive and work it into his kit. His item spikes "surprise" the enemy after one of his buys and then he catches up based on that. His W being similar to Yorick W would also assist in reducing opponent frustration factors. In exchange he could get more bases and ratios to work with.
also i would add that right now you still have to bait out his shield after he uses wind wall anyway. it's just a matter of passive timing for him the way it is right now.
Takazaki (NA)
: I really like the effort here. so im going to give you an actual response with no snark. > 1) Move Yasuo's passive RESOLVE (the white shield) to his W. Reasons for Change 1: Everyone gripes that Yasuo having 2 passives is strong. So at the very least make the compromise of moving it to his W. W is already a defensive spell. So give Yasuo an incentive to learn this skill even in matchups with enemy's that don't have projectiles (like Garen, Darius, Karthus, etc). Heck even him not having this passive shield for lvls 1 and 2 will feel like a breath of fresh air for mages trying to lock down a fast dashing, tornado-spewing monster. recommended Tweak 1: Make the shield activate on wind wall press. I think we could do away with the whole shield-comes-up-every-so-often especially because we already see it on other champions (Camille and Rakan). Also, this would add skill expression to the shield and also might barely save his ass in some situations where the wind wall won't block a skill [see change 2]. Yasuo might use it situationally more so for the shield, but by paying the cost of the windwall cooldown, giving his opponents windows for counter attack. Moving the passive to W isn't a bad idea becaue it weakens top lane yasuo forcing him to skill point something he doesn't need. The main issue with this is it also cripples mid lane yasuo as he either hasto get it level 2 in order to stay safe or just straight up pray the enemy doesnt level 2 all in him. Remember Yasuo has the weakest base stats of any slayer, Trading with yasuo level 2 with this change would make him auto lose it and quite possible force him to play passive for the next 3 levels which gears down his tempo for no legitimate reason when he is suppose to be a high tempo champion. you turn him into a boring farm bot in mid lane like akali/fizz without the same power spike akali/fizz has with levels. Lastly Making the shield not auto proc on damage is a mistake. as it stands the ebst counter play for yasuo is abusing his horrid stats in lane. His passive is the only thing that allows him to trade in lane other then windwall. both of which have extreamly high cooldowns. keeping yasuo's shield down is a job up to the laner which forces them to be proactive in lane and leads to interactive gameplay. changing it otherwise removing any incentive to harass yasuo as he will just shield it. outside of lane it would just a be shitter version of riven E. > 2) Yasuo's Windwall blocks all projectiles but it does NOT block ANY ultimates. Reasons for Change 2: Let's face it guys, if we saw Yasuo in the world championships and the enemy Jinx was able to snipe him across the map (maybe even with an opportunity for a double with the aoe splash), would we want to see Yasuo be able to delete that rocket just because his windwall cooldown was back up? Or would we want to see the explosion of a sick play? Everyone agrees that windwall is frustrating. It's a very cool ability to use but Yasuo has alot of other cool things going for him that him being able to NEGATE another champion's ULTIMATE ability with a BASIC ability is just anti fun. This compromise also serves as a clear rule that even new players can understand, and makes it easier for game designers moving forward: Yasuo's windwall can NOT block ultimates. Because as it stands right now, it just doesn't make sense some times as to why, for example, Nami's Tidal Wave disappeared. I have to explain to my lvl 5 newbie friends that it was just because it was coded as a projectile. It's just fair man. Yasuo's wind wall is on a much shorter cd than ultimates. This change will allow him to keep his currently moderate cooldown, which feels good for him in late game skirmishes. There is a reason Yasuo isnt played in worlds. this this is unrealistic because proplayers understand something basic they silver and bronze refuse to acknowledge.** no one in their right mind shoots a skill shot ult at yasuo knowing full well his windwall is up.** its like at the same people who dive tryn under tower when his ult is up. why would you do something that will not work because they have a cooldown up and call it unfair because you did it while the cooldown was up. follow the logic here, it just doesn't make any sense literally every other champion in this game has the same condition as that and even some items ({{item:3157}} ) but suddenly if we are talking about yasuo its unfair? People like to throw out that its unfair that yasuo can block a ult, but what exactly makes that unfair? labing this as basic and ult and then balencing around a label makes no sense. further more lets talk about how yasuo's ult is conditional. without a team built around him yasuo cannot reliably ult, no other champion has this condition. i have gone entire games without ulting as yasuo simply because an opportunity never arose. he pays for that windwall by having a subpar ult that's a glorified steroid and shitty stats. there is no reason to change windwalls ability to block ults unless you change either of those, which compound that if you change either of those yasuo's will go crazy top lane because suddenly the gates holding them back have been removed because players didnt want to think about using their ults. to double up on this why is it people complain about yasuo W but not spell shields on noc and sivir? or bruam shield? they do the exact same thing except they block ANYTHING ( bruam withstanding) whilst having a lower cooldown and other effects tied in. the answer is just bias. yasuo is popular and that's why people will complain about literally everything about him.
thank you for your critique. I appreciate your feedback but there is a couple of points I can address > further more lets talk about how yasuo's ult is conditional. without a team built around him yasuo cannot reliably ult, no other champion has this condition. One example is Kled. He needs to be mounted to use his ultimate. Also, some other conditions for other champions' is mana. You can't deny that it cost them resources. Another condition could be it requires a target. Like Akali's dash.. She can't dash away unless she's dashing toward an enemy. Usually she's using it to her advantage but still it's a condition she might not want to meet all the time. Rek sai has to mark her target first. Also, other's champions ultimates could be skill shots and the condition is hitting them. Like Cass won't stun if she doesn't ult you while you are looking at her. > People like to throw out that its unfair that yasuo can block a ult, but what exactly makes that unfair? The fact is that it negates another champion's ability which comes at a much bigger cost. That's basically it. Yasuo can windwall 2-5x before the enemy's ultimate ability comes up and he doesn't spend mana. > they do the exact same thing except they block ANYTHING ( bruam withstanding) whilst having a lower cooldown and other effects tied in. I agree with you that there is bias. But I could argue that Sivir, Braum, and Noc doesn't have the same mobility to complement that block spell. Also, as far as spell shields go they require better timing than yasuo's, especially because his windwall cast is very forgiving coming from the center of the model. I am just trying to make changes to Yasuo without changing his kit because I don't think he is deserving of direct nerfs and I wouldn't want to see his abilities change because they make him fun to play.
: I don't think moving that passive to his W is a bad idea, but the additional suggested tweaks all have something "irk" about them. The first tweak feels redundant and makes both shields feel bad since he is forced to use both at once. It would sent the signal of "why do I need to block the projectile if I have a dmg shield" or "why do I have a dmg shield if I blocked what was coming. It's kinda like when Azir E used to give a shield _and_ knockup. "Why the shield if they're ccd?" so it got removed. The second tweak makes it so he has an extra layer even once his ww is baited out. It feels bad for the opponent since they are already down a spell. You'd also end up with strange situations where using W on nothing is optimal in lane before going for a trade. <---would be hilarious, don't get me wrong :P The third tweak _sounds fine at first glance_ but then you realize it punishes Yasuos that dodge stuff with E and save their W for emergencies/the perfect moment. Unless I'm missing something of course, as you said it leaves a lot open to interpretation. -------------------- Second change "Doesn't block any ultimates" is too blanket and nuanced for people to keep track of. Either it blocks projectiles, or it doesn't. Anything beyond that fuzzies communication of the gameplay mechanic (exception is lasers, which still sometimes gets asked about on the boards---rarely though) The burden of knowledge on players (playing as Yasuo and vs him) would be too large for the second change to be done. Examples: does it block Twitch autos when ulted? Vayne's? How about Udyr R aoe proc? ------------ Personally, I think they should attack the double crit passive and work it into his kit. His item spikes "surprise" the enemy after one of his buys and then he catches up based on that. His W being similar to Yorick W would also assist in reducing opponent frustration factors. In exchange he could get more bases and ratios to work with.
yeah the double crit passive feels especially oppressive right now because a couple of patches ago they made zeal and IE cheaper so that big spike is hitting even faster. I don't like it but the main reasons behind it is that by keep his base stats low and forcing him to buy crit items (because they are too damn efficient) removes tank yasuo builds. There was a while where building top lane frozen mallet on yasuo was strong and he was so hard to kill because Yasuo is naturally hard to catch. I tried to come up with changes that wouldn't affect his crit because it's what makes him feel strong but with the current prices its too strong. Thanks for your criticisms to argue your argument about does it block Twitch, Vayne or Udyr, no because they are auto attacks. He will still be able to block auto attacks and basic abilities. Even if the ultimate just augments your auto attack. I still think that is alot fairer and clearer than things that are just 'coded' as projectiles. If laser's where coded as a projectile they would of blocked them too it's not for any other reason than from an implementation standpoint that Lux's laser doesn't get blocked.
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JakeDuck (NA)
: How do you guys feel about how he currently moves/positions his soldiers? When his Q is used, it sort of converges them all into one area. While this is good for a bit of extra damage, it gives his soldiers a bit smaller area of influence. Here's my idea: What if instead of soldiers moving in a line toward the cursor, they instead moved in a line that was parallel to Azir's path to the cursor? So instead of this: http://imgur.com/P97LU27 We get something like this: http://imgur.com/WOGyR0h Basically, it would allow players to create mini "formations" of soldiers. It would let Azir make clustered groups of soldiers for higher damage output in a small area, or spread them over a broader area to control more of the map. I feel like Azir should play like he's commanding an army, and choose the way they form and move. This sort of change may help that theme.
This is definitely something an advanced Azir player would like but a new Azir player would find confusing. Also from a coding algorithm standpoint, looks to be quite a challenge the more you think about soldier positions that are more complicated.
: Azir Gameplay Update: Goals and Directions
I find option 1 appealing. In lane, Azir's range is super oppressive. As far as the theme of an emperor, I don't really think sitting back from a distance really serves the fantasy for players. Are players really thinking, I should sit in my castle and let my soldiers do the work? Or rather, let me be on the front lines fighting and between me and my enemies are my strong sand soldiers? I think the latter. He's a warrior king. Think Leonidas, not Lord Farquad. The fact is, the mobility on his kit is unique and interesting among the 100+ champs because it gives him playmaking potential. I think we should try to embrace his unique strengths and tone down his general strength which is his range. The pattern of Q AA AA poke that Azir has is really what is frustrating because he can do it from max range which lowers the enemy laner's ability to trade. For a ranged DPS champion he sure does have reliable strong long range poke. That is why I would rather see Option #1 and I would rather see Azir be rewarded for smart positioning. I think that his ability to cause Sand Soldiers to Auto Attack should be lower than the Q range, especially the range on live right now. I think trading that range and giving him more survivability to really highlight the warrior king thematic / fairness would make gameplay feel more exciting for both players and viewers. Tl;dr Azir's long poke range in lane is what is generally oppressive, offers no unique or interesting interaction, & doesn't REALLY deliver the emperor warrior thematic.
: So you basically up warmog. What do you take away ?
: They should triple the cost, but refund half of the Mana if hit a champion.
I think this kind of mechanic suits the duelist. She can be kind of oppressive and it kind of evens the playing field by punishing her for striking without precision
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Basshead

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