Meddler (NA)
: Last I checked with the Champion team they were still waiting on some engineering time for some work on reducing allied CDs. Will see if we've got any ETA on that.
Is the Design team aware of the mountain of negative feedback that was created when that rework was announced 4 months ago. It does nothing at all to address the problems with AP Karma and will effectively kill Karma's second most popular build at the moment in the top lane. Worse yet, Neurocat's stated reason for her passive nerf was to address the skill difference between pro and solo queue play. Yet the CD refresh mechanic will be the most pro-player abusable mechanic in the game. Karma was explicitly stated to need nerfs because of this power difference and the very real fear is that Karma will end up in Irelia/Ryze'so shoes once more due to pro play. It's pretty upsetting how poorly communication regarding the proposed changes from neurocat has been with the community. we've heard only radio silence since the changes were posted 4 months ago and the feedback was ubiquitously poor. We're hearing now, four months later, that the proposed changes are going through without any indication that feedback was taken into consideration.
: There are rumours of that happening. I guess shit’s about to hit the fan on this rework.
Where are you getting this info from. I'm dying to know.
: Neeko's R is what Karma's shield bomb should've been
It's really starting to get disgusting. Karma can't have her shield bomb, but Ivern, Sion and now a new champion can. The proposed rework completely ends one of Karma's playstyles (so Tank Karma players must pick a new style or new champion to main.) For mages, you get nothing. You didn't build all that AP to give someone else CDR. The proposed changes are complete shit and there's no communication on whether or not that are happening or what Riot thinks of the feedback. Meanwhile Karma mains are crying out for something they just gave another champion. Talk about tone deaf.
Rioter Comments
: How’s the Karma revert/rework coming along? Not going to stop till I get an answer.
> [{quoted}](name=jocomotion,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=5UGHt25h,comment-id=0033,timestamp=2018-09-19T16:41:05.779+0000) > Not going to stop till I get an answer. This is a bad way to get an answer. In fact it's an easy way to guarantee you won't get one. I want to know how the Karma update is coming along as well, but this post isn't going to get me that answer.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Bloodleaf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7VIGVrox,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-08-22T21:55:09.210+0000) > If it affects all champions, then that drag down is not a factor. Why is that?
If 25% of Champion A's players do not main or are new to the champion and thus have a lower winrate. The same is true for champion B.
: You have to remember that winrate is based on _average_ performance in that ELO. If a champion is **perfectly** balanced, but takes some skill to play well, it's going to have a slightly lower winrate than 50% due to the lesser skill of those who don't main it dragging down the winrate stat. 48 and 49% WR champs are perfectly viable, moreso if you main them. 50% WR is unwanted for mains and one tricks because it means your champ becomes meta. What becomes meta gets pickstole and banned, so you do NOT want your main to be 50% WR or more. It sure sucks to play an enchanter support when the most picked supports are Alistar, Rakan, and Thresh though. Oh well, the meta will shift eventually!
Logic is not sound. Every champion incurs this "drag down". If it affects all champions, then that drag down is not a factor.
: > [{quoted}](name=Furious Delisha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVsYEiFT,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-02T09:05:01.551+0000) > > Karma was the very first rework and Karma mains have been waiting since then. They have been the most patient out of all of us. That's not the point. The point is that Riot has addressed her problems and said they are working on her. Posting every hour doesn't make that go any faster, which is why I say be patient.
They have not addressed her problem, that's literally what these posts are about. No one wants to wait four months while playing in the shit state their champion is in. Also regarding patience, karma has never had a more than 51% win rate in the last four years. The champion has always been in the gutter or close to it, the only major exception being the Ardent meta. It's been more than a year with Karma being at 47% when Riot nerfed her directly, then nerfed all of her support items in the same patch. No one but my be urgot and poppy mains have been as patient as Karma mains.
Rioter Comments
: They just changed Karma bio and updated some of other ionian champions
Great Job Riot. A few changes and Karma no longer feels like a personality less blob over reaching to be linearly peaceful. It's not a story with a lot of depth, but even some makes it a great deal better. Thank you.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
HeazonZ (NA)
: I don't really understand what you mean. If you tether Kayn and he ults, he can just stay in ult until the tether runs out right? Meanwhile, the other invulnerabilities you listed don't last as long. Don't really think this is a bug.
He still gets tethered, so he cannot break out while he is rooted.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 13
I can't help but feel like I don't understand the direction of the Karma changes. Everything is setup to help her early game which is the healthiest part of her kit. The only change I see as needed was the armor buff, but that miniscule change honestly. What Karma needs is her Q and W actually having an impact outside of her shield past level 8. Can you explain what you're trying to accomplish with these changes?
Meddler (NA)
: Might be some small tweaks today to Karma on the PBE (e.g. Q radius to 280, versus 300 in previous testing and 250 on live). Overall it's pretty close to final for 8.14 though. Still looking to do some larger work to her as well, will be talking about who should take that over from rickless this week.
I can't help but feel like I don't understand the direction of these changes. Everything is setup to help her early game which is the healthiest part of her kit. The only change I see as needed was the armor buff, but that miniscule change honestly. What Karma needs is her Q and W actually having an impact outside of her shield past level 8. Can you explain what you're trying to accomplish with these changes?
: Karma buffs suggestion
TL;DR: 1)The anti-Tank-Karma circlejerk from Support Karma Mains is cancerous. 2) The Devs are not and have never needed to worry about Tank Karma being too Strong. Since its inception it has never broken 50% win rate. I really dislike the Anti-Tank Karma Circle jerk in the Karma Community. We get it, 90% of Karma Mains play support. Late game tank Karma is not tankier than mid game. Tank Karmas do not usually build more than 2 tank items. IBG and SV. There's no legion of unkillable late game Karmas out there. What makes Tank Karma tanky is the combination of Health+AP and Tank Items and her ability to Kite in and out of damage. Doing this requires a great deal of skill and experience in team fights. It's not at all overpowered and has never been over powered. The animosity against Tank Karma comes from her low play rate. Players who don't expect her Mantra-W to heal so much go from "LOL U DED" to "Oh wait I can't kill this battle mage". Her winrate has never broken 50% as Karma Top and the heal is not overpowered in anyway. It's only ~30% of her max HP on the bests of uses (on a champion with a small base health pool). What's worse is that despite it's long running abysmal winrate, Karma Mains circle jerk against it swearing that this extremely small niche of players is responsible for her general neglect and long standing low winrate.
Kaìju (NA)
: Karma can't be overbuffed because when she is she's cancer. Her R Q is designed not to he able to miss if you aim it properly and it does a fuck ton of damage, her W can't be broken if she's faster than you, and she has a team wide shield and speed boost, which is basically a mini Sivir R. Karma gets gutted because she is so aggravating to play against because of how much she has. Let's look at what she really has in her kit. Q, poke/wave clear mininuke. W, CC/healing. E, shield and move speed/for the whole team. R, low cooldown for an R. Karma is stupid strong when she's ahead and buffing her only makes it more pronounced, so if they buff her prepare to never get to play her as she's perma banned.
Every single thread there's someone like you who comes and lists off champion abilities like they're something absurd. Her Q is a medium range slow projectile. Her W is a weaker version of LeBlanc's chain. It has less damage, range and only snares instead of stunning, and that "Miniult" uses her actual ult. Post like this are a cancer. You can do that with literally every champion in the game to make them sound broken. Did you know that Syndra has a long range knock back AoE stun. Her ult does the second most damage of a target able spell and she has a low CD slow. You can do this and completely ignore the fact that Syndra is one of the least viable mage in the game. It's a cancerous way to make a point.
Meddler (NA)
: Glad you like the passive! Some Karma buffs should be on PBE today. Some mage bits likely next week.
These Karma buffs are going to do nothing for her. They are all buffs to the only part of her that is healthy, her early game. Karma's #1 complaint is that only her shield feels impactful past level 5.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bloodleaf,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vmtX7Foh,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-03T00:52:23.366+0000) > > It is exceptionally difficult to dodge skillshots that are shot from fog of war. > > A team should not have to control the entire map for a champion to now have cancerous gameplay. Actually, you can count, almost, any champion into that too. Warding is powerful, no matter if you are against Zoe, or not. Also, Zoe won't be firing blind shots, for the most part. If a Zoe hits anyone blind, either, its your fault or it's Zoe getting lucky. She will most likely ward too, if that is so, counter ward her. Buy a Control Ward. My best advise is, play Zoe. Don't main her, but play her for two to three games, in draft, and you will get better at countering her. Think, like a Zoe, and you will win against a Zoe. Zoe isn't broken, people who complain has never tried her before, I don't know about you, I didn't check. I got a 58% win rate for a reason. Most Zoe players, with or without M7, I have faced, don't even get close to my numbers. The -7 also proves to me, I'm right. "True strength is when you have a lot to cry about, but you choose to smile and take another step forward instead." Many choose to cry, instead of finding ways to beat her. Lose the game, and learn from it. Nerfing Zoe is another wrong step, in the wrong direction. "First accept sadness. Realize that without losing, winning isn't so great." When you beat Zoe, you will feel so much better about the winning game. Cancerous champions are the once that will make your win more enjoyable. If every single champion was balanced, no fun would come out of winning it.
All champions benefit from map control, but no one nearly on the level of Zoe. I've played Zoe in several games. No one benefits like she does. That kind of benefit is exactly why Nidalee was nerffed and reworked.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 4
Waiting for Karma changes on patch ~~8.13~~ 8.14. https://i.imgur.com/AgKWSwm.png
: > [{quoted}](name=Bloodleaf,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vmtX7Foh,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-02T06:37:51.471+0000) > > It's entirely possible to have a champion with a subpar winrate and cancerous gameplay. > This happens most commonly with high skillcap champions. > > I get that you like comboing people from off map, but the enemy team doesn't find that fun at all. Yes, you're 100% correct, but so is Anivia, Zed, Talon, Fizz, and so on. Why they target Zoe specifically, I have no idea. Since her kit is less cancerous than Talon's early W-WBack-Q-BA-Ignite, and Zed's W-Q-E-W-BA. Honestly, that isn't my problem. Zoe's abilities are easily dodgeable, most seem to walk into my E or Q. So they are ruining it for themselves.
> [{quoted}](name=HyperTechno,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vmtX7Foh,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-02T15:36:30.795+0000) > > Yes, you're 100% correct, but so is Anivia, Zed, Talon, Fizz, and so on. Why they target Zoe specifically, I have no idea. Since her kit is less cancerous than Talon's early W-WBack-Q-BA-Ignite, and Zed's W-Q-E-W-BA. > > Honestly, that isn't my problem. Zoe's abilities are easily dodgeable, most seem to walk into my E or Q. So they are ruining it for themselves. It is exceptionally difficult to dodge skillshots that are shot from fog of war. A team should not have to control the entire map for a champion to now have cancerous gameplay.
: The info says he is in a good spot, right now. http://na.op.gg/champion/zed/statistics/mid 50% win rate and still has a 12% pick rate. Zoe is 48% and is still falling, and her pick rate is now 11% still declining. And nothing has said anything about Talon getting nerfed. https://www.surrenderat20.net/index.html If I missed it, then plz, link it. TF's numbers look kinda good in your elo, but it's also because you're playing champions TF doesn't want to face. http://champion.gg/champion/TwistedFate/Middle?&league=gold How is Gold by the way? Are the people better than silver? I want a challenge for my Zoe, the silver players always give me free kills.
> [{quoted}](name=HyperTechno,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vmtX7Foh,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T04:27:46.520+0000) > > The info says he is in a good spot, right now. http://na.op.gg/champion/zed/statistics/mid > > 50% win rate and still has a 12% pick rate. > > Zoe is 48% and is still falling, and her pick rate is now 11% still declining. > > And nothing has said anything about Talon getting nerfed. https://www.surrenderat20.net/index.html > > If I missed it, then plz, link it. > > TF's numbers look kinda good in your elo, but it's also because you're playing champions TF doesn't want to face. http://champion.gg/champion/TwistedFate/Middle?&league=gold > > How is Gold by the way? Are the people better than silver? I want a challenge for my Zoe, the silver players always give me free kills. It's entirely possible to have a champion with a subpar winrate and cancerous gameplay. This happens most commonly with high skillcap champions. I get that you like comboing people from off map, but the enemy team doesn't find that fun at all.
: What Karma Needs
This is brilliant and I never fucking say that to rework idea threads.
Rioter Comments
: ***
It's not about disagreeing. It's about not arguing with the third grader when he tells you drinking coffee is drinking and driving.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bloodleaf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pLATdYw8,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-20T02:31:47.115+0000) > > Then here: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champions/ > > Protip: If your crappy stats site is vastly different than all other sites, it's probably just a shitty site. Protip: if your "crappy" champ sees play in 3 roles has a 6% pick rate sees play in both Pro play and Challenger the champ isn't bad you're
I want to thank you for being the "Fine in Challenger" Sterotype. Every thread needs one. I'm super grateful that Riot balances for challenger only.
: This person lists a statistics site, you tell them it's a shit site and link your own. Then someone tells you that site is shit and links THEIR own. Causing you to talk shit on em :"But hey lol-feigned-sense-of-authority.com is the best one for you I think." I expect to see you at lol-feigned-sense-of-authority.com
1) Their site is actual shit. The numbers are drastically varied from several other sources. 2) I literally already linked the site you linked. I don't know why you're spazing about like I am anti-lolanalytics. 3) Sounds like you real mad about that joke. Yikes.
: Okay? And? Karma's main role simply isn't mid. It's support. We have the statistical evidence to prove this. She is a support. One of the weakest supports, sure, but not the weakest champion for their main role overall. That dubious honor *still*, as I said, belongs to Tristana, who is the weakest normal ADC. > Several ADC's can mid and bot lane. Which several ADCs are these? Would this be Lucian, who was pushed away from mid, and was only there while he was abusing on-hit items? Ashe, who hasn't been mid in years? Or do you mean Corki, who isn't viable botlane? Or is it Ezreal, who...honestly nobody knows what the fuck is going on with him, actually. He *is* viable mid and bot, though, while also being part of the regular ADC roster, so I'll give you him. One ADC isn't several. Hell, that's only *three*, none of which are *consistently* good in both mid *and* bot, except for Ezreal, who's *usually* good in both at the same time, and only *one* of which is currently viable in mid. And, yes. We're excluding Galio ADC and other things that aren't usually there, or that just don't even show up on most sites. But the point is that 46%>45%, and that Karma's role that she is *primarily* picked in is not mid, but support, where she has about a 1.5% higher winrate (which is still pretty bad, though).
Karma's mid pick percent is 0.52% that's equivalent or greater than a third of champion's pick rates. You're making this incredibly pedantic argument that just isn't worth it.
: if you can't take people telling you this kinda shit, don't tell people this kinda shit yourself.
idk why you think I can't take people telling me anything. But I can rest assured that you are super creepy.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bloodleaf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pLATdYw8,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-06-20T01:54:25.967+0000) > > Oh lawd a leagueofgraphs link.... > > http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend > > http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ > > Use real sites please. > Lol.. > Use real sites please. Links Champion.gg Use https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Karma/
You mean that thing I linked right next to this post. Gee. I mean "Real sites" all have extremely similar winrates on Karma. But hey lol-feigned-sense-of-authority.com is the best one for you I think.
: [Champion.gg](http://champion.gg/champion/Karma/Middle) says Karma has a 45% winrate midlane, but it also says it's not her main role. Her higher pickrate role is [support](http://champion.gg/champion/Karma/Support), with a 46% winrate. Which puts her below [Tristana ADC](http://champion.gg/champion/Tristana/adc), who is less than .2% above Karma's midlane winrate, and ADC **is** Tristana's primary role, especially since she doesn't even *show up* anywhere else. So your statement is factually inaccurate.
Champions have multiple roles. Camile can jungle and top. Swain can top and midlane. Several ADC's can mid and bot lane. This isn't a foreign concept. What I am excluding are things like Galio ADC which is below her in win rate.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bloodleaf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pLATdYw8,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-06-20T01:54:25.967+0000) > > > http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend > > http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ Oh lawd .gg links.... Use real sites please. sorry not interested in only plat + Korean data TYVM that means jack shit
gg is a domain. It's not specific to league of legends in any way possible. It's also used for a myriad of different sites by different companies for different services for many different games. It's a fucking domain. Super cringey how you don't know which ones to look at and picked something at random to write off sites that actually do proper metrics. But here, let's pretend that cringey attempt at sounding knowledgeable was at all true. Then here: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champions/ Protip: If your crappy stats site is vastly different than all other sites, it's probably just a shitty site.
: umm WUT? https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/karma/all .. i mean sure thats a weak spot.. but you are trying to tell me shit about "weakest champion in a main role... i haven't get to post this in a while... https://i.imgur.com/NUYYw2d.png when u tie for th 10th lowest win rate in the history of league... come talk to me. sure u can have buffs. but don't starting talking like "weakest champ in main role "beating out X" u know nothing of my pain... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPenzNoq97E go take a look
Oh lawd a leagueofgraphs link.... http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ Use real sites please.
: When {{champion:157}} is weak: Gets hotfixed immediately. When {{champion:43}} is weak: Gets nerfed even more. I hate Riot's favoritism. {{sticker:sg-shisa}}
Yeah this is seriously kinda gross. Since that guy's creation he has been unreal amount of balance changes in his history. More than twice Karma's changes and in greater scale. Meanwhile Karma is 3x as old as he is.
Rioter Comments
: It's so hard to be a Karma fan.
Also obvious joke about Riot removing her fans.
Rioter Comments
: If this is your only logic behind not nerfing Janna's Shield as hard as Karma and Lulu's
Think about it for more than 5 seconds will you? If they separate the buff, then they have to choose a duration. It won't be the exact same duration because that would be over powered. So either: A: They separate it, keep the same duration and nerf the crap out of it. B: Separate it, nerf the duration so the AD boost is still impactful and noticeable. Or lastly C: Don't separate it, have the shield decay so it's impactful, noticeable and lasts the duration. Oh look, you got the long end of the stick and you're still complaining. Meanwhile in Karma Land...
Lost R (NA)
: Win rates aren't the end all be all of all buff/nerf decisions. That's the mindset of a binary worm. Karma is somewhere between being a mage and a support, and she has a knack for doing both a little too well, especially when the enemy clumps up in the mid-to-late game and you can throw out Mantra/Soulfires every few seconds.
Talks about oversimplification of balance, follows up with a far greater oversimplification.
potchiker (EUW)
: Good quality comment{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} But if it is for consistency then why did janna shield get a different change
Because she has an AD steroid based on the duration of the shield. Pix sticks on the ally past the shield duration. Karma's speed boost applies instantly and only lasts 1.5 seconds, Ori gives resistance independent of the shield. Janna's AD steroid is removed when the shield is removed. That said, not compensating under-performing enchanters is terrible. Karma's at 47% WR and is getting double tapped by this nerf and the item changes.
: I can't believe a lot of this board is so delusional in thinking that Karma will need a buff after this
being 47% WR for 6 months, then getting nerfed. Gee I wonder why they assume this.
Leyrann (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bloodleaf,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=r1eqke0v,comment-id=001b00000001,timestamp=2018-06-06T17:04:38.525+0000) > > With Karma's Winrate being steady at low 47% (46% for mid lane) wouldn't it be safe to assume she won't be stronger after this patch? > > Sololane Karma uses her shield to get in position for her combo. Often before the enemy has begun trading damage to her. > > Meaning with Karma's reduced shield duration, the shield either cannot be used to initiate her combo, or it cannot be used as effectively to shield damage. > > Speaking as a solo lane Karma main, this is for sure going to impact her already low winrate solo lanes. > > > edit: Adding damage to her Mantra-Q second hit and her W are good candidate for healthy damage boosts. Both have great counterplay options for the enemy champions. Well, solo lane Karma doesn't really have the most healthy playstyle right now... You shield, allowing you to get into position to deal your damage while at the same time making counterattacks useless. If this nerf to shield duration goes through, you'll have to choose. Either move into position to deal damage without using your shield, or leaving yourself open to counterattack. And if that leaves solo lane Karma too weak, then she can get buffs that focus on solo lane Karma in particular, like AP ratio buffs (preferably on W, as Q already deals a ton of damage and buffing the shield means pushing her more into support).
Unhealthy how exactly? Telling me there's no counter attack means you don't know how little level 1 E shields for. Her sololane win rate has been at 46% for months, her support win rate hovers around 47.5%. She's been in a bad place since the entire season began. E is primarily just a speed boost until level 10. Karma doesn't have many options in terms of dealing damage to mages or melee. Reducing the damage she takes in a trade is the only way her very limited damage can be worth anything. The amount is no where nearly enough to "Make counterattack useless" but losing an extra 80 health in each trade that you initiate is a big deal.
Meddler (NA)
: Potentially. Karma we think's especially likely to need followup. Do want to see where the 8.12 changes put affected champs before committing to anything though.
With Karma's Winrate being steady at low 47% (46% for mid lane) wouldn't it be safe to assume she won't be stronger after this patch? Sololane Karma uses her shield to get in position for her combo. Often before the enemy has begun trading damage to her. Meaning with Karma's reduced shield duration, the shield either cannot be used to initiate her combo, or it cannot be used as effectively to shield damage. Speaking as a solo lane Karma main, this is for sure going to impact her already low winrate solo lanes. edit: Adding damage to her Mantra-Q second hit and her W are good candidate for healthy damage boosts. Both have great counterplay options for the enemy champions.
Alyzbeth (NA)
: Karma weak? wat. I mean....seriously? o_o She is prettyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy strong and fun to play, if you know how to play and scale her up, her cc's are great, her long range and how her shields can make her and her team run the fuck out of anything! But sure, she could get a rework to make her stronger, like every other champion need
47.34% winrate. He is going off her terrible winrate. She is the third worst support ahead of gragas and malphite.
Swifteyy (EUW)
: Why is it 4 votes to forfeit means game ends?
Because 5 ff requirement causes a bad chain reaction. The worst quality of playing league is the fact that you have to kep playing even when the game you are in is feeding you one bad experience after another (enemy team is bulldozing you) It's a rare thing for a game to enforce exposure of a negative experience for the sake of the enjoyment of other players. If 5 ff is the requirement than the community's only reaction is AFKing. If you come down hard on the increase in AFKing then players stop playing. Which you're probably thinking is a great thing. Get rid of the quitters amirite? Except that's how games die. You lose even 15% of a player base this large and a spiral effect takes hold. So yes, 4 ff requirement is not just good, it's fucking vital.
: Incorrect. OP: Frantic list of reasons Ori is in bad shape, followed by frantic complaint saying Ori is being nerfed along with enchanter supports. Me: She has more damage than enchanters, it's normal for her shields to be made weaker than theirs. You: I hate that you remind me of people who piss me off, so I'm going to take out my problems with them on you. I might have made a mistake, but I'm certainly not about to consider that while you're on the attack. So shoo, I can reflect on my own comments without your help.
hahah, you just did it again. The OP isn't saying Ori's shield should be stronger. Op is saying that Ori's shield is not instant or requires setup. That's the entire point about the shield. Her shield is already weaker and has drawbacks. You: But she has more damage. Thanks dude, her damage has literally nothing to do with what the OP is saying. You have masterfully don't the same thing twice.
: I dunno who you've had to deal with in the past but I'm nothing like them. Take your issue with other people somewhere else. That's a terrible example. And you know it. Shoo. I'm not against the OP, I'm just for good reasoning.
OP: Ori's shield has a delay and is not simply point and click. It doesn't deserve the same nerf as spammable sheilds. Literally You: TO BE FAIR Ori has strengths other supports don't have, and other supports have strengths she doesn't have. Now that typed something that has nothing that resembles a point or context, I'll tell you that Ori actually should be nerfed while not addressing anything at all that you typed in your OP.
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Bladeleaf

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