: I take Klepto with domination secondary for sustain. I rush archangels sub-item then go for roa and complete archangels. After that I straight up build tank items
Top lane you have the money to get archangels, but it's a struggle support. It pushes your first defensive item back too far, and will get rolled by lethality users because you're also lower level.
Hwke94 (NA)
: Yuumi is unfun to play against.
I have three problems with Yuumi: 1. {{item:3041}} doesn't carry the normal risk/reward ratio. 2. The cooldown on her ult is too fast. 3. She has gold advantage because she doesn't need to buy boots, or upgraded boots. For a support 900-1100 gold at the end of laning is a significant lead. The problem is that she is another of the zero or hero champs that have been released, and often times it comes down to having either significantly more skill, a good jungle, or you counter pick. The coin flip or counter pick meta sucks.
: I wanted to try Tank Annie bcs of her bully style and damage reduction in top lane: Conqueror dealt %50 of his damage
I've done support tank annie before. Support item > ROA > full defense. Just try to survive long enough to get multiple stuns off each fight. It's fun, but not reliable.
: > [{quoted}](name=CrimsonBloodFang,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zij79YiX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-21T11:54:55.965+0000) > > Would be a slightly more useful comment if u linked some resources. Cause googling anything is useless the way search engines work. They can't understand what a person is really searching on. I can't actually locate sources for this because it don't know what I really intending it to find. Woulda been easier if you provided background. It's more implied than anything. Death Recap still won't tell you how many basic attacks a champion, tower or minion fired at you; just the total damage from them. Do you need to buy Randuin's for the anti-crit? Or is Thornmail gonna be better because there isn't any crit? Runes are also similarly clumped so you won't know how much damage you took from any combination of Aftershock, Shield Bash, Electrocute, Cheap Shot, Aery, Comet, Scorch, PTA, Conqueror, Fleet Footwork, Coup de Grace, Last Stand and Cut Down. (There are probably runes I missed in that list but that's a lot of runes that could be affecting the damage you take from an enemy.) Either way, it's still ambiguous in a few ways and that doesn't help. There's also the fact they could improve it further by marking what dealt the killing blow in death recap (such as Jinx Rocket, Zed's ultimate or even a tower's basic attack) in addition to whomever got credit for the kill (if it was a tower, minion or an epic monster that dealt a killing blow).
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zij79YiX,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-08-21T12:10:35.230+0000) > > It's more implied than anything. > > Death Recap still won't tell you how many basic attacks a champion, tower or minion fired at you; just the total damage from them. Do you need to buy Randuin's for the anti-crit? Or is Thornmail gonna be better because there isn't any crit? Runes are also similarly clumped so you won't know how much damage you took from any combination of Aftershock, Shield Bash, Electrocute, Cheap Shot, Aery, Comet, Scorch, PTA, Conqueror, Fleet Footwork, Coup de Grace, Last Stand and Cut Down. (There are probably runes I missed in that list but that's a lot of runes that could be affecting the damage you take from an enemy.) > > Either way, it's still ambiguous in a few ways and that doesn't help. There's also the fact they could improve it further by marking what dealt the killing blow in death recap (such as Jinx Rocket, Zed's ultimate or even a tower's basic attack) in addition to whomever got credit for the kill (if it was a tower, minion or an epic monster that dealt a killing blow). Caster minion auto attack. Nooooooooooooooo!{{sticker:sg-janna}}
Dotty LB (NA)
: I main mid and sub support and get mid most of the time, what are you subbing? My problem hasnt been getting my lane but getting matched with the right elo ppl.
> [{quoted}](name=Dotty LB,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eiyyxo0z,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-21T08:08:25.857+0000) > > My problem hasnt been getting my lane but getting matched with the right elo ppl. This. I either get matched against people who can't dodge a skillshot, or people who helicopter dick me for 25 minutes. There's very little between these two extremes.
: > [{quoted}](name=Freeza with an I,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE3HkQBJ,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-08-21T06:45:25.546+0000) > > By that logic, they should remove Vayne's W since it's just an additional damage buff and therefore doesn't need the visual indicator. The thing is when Cait has a headshot ready, you see it in her particles on her hand. Same deal with Vayne. Jhin/Annie have much bigger effects than Cait and Vayne so they naturally have more visible indicators. Jhin primarily has it because you always need to be aware of how many shots he has lest you get 1-2'd by a surprise nukeshot you didn't see coming and Annie because stuns.
I don't know why this is a contentious request. Cait has a visual indicator that she has a headshot ready. The OP says that it is difficult to see that indicator and is asking for them to instead use the visual indicator that many other champions have. I don't think that this will actually change anything because cait can hold her headshot as long as she wants or proc it multiple ways, but it's not an unreasonable request.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QyUYuZtn,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-18T05:40:36.981+0000) > > Yuumi (dash/untargetable), rakan (dash, dash (+redash), speed boost), kayn (dash, speed boost terrain ignore, untargetable), pyke (speed boost stealth, dash, dash execute), Qiyana (dash, dash, stealth), etc. The mobility creep has gotten so bad that it's probably easier to list champs that don't have some kind of fuckery in their kit. You forgot Pyke dash stun just in case you decide to do something stupid like trying to catch the little sht. Also no Ekko mention? dash into targeted dash, speed boost and pseudo revive/teleport.
I wasn't trying to make an exhaustive list, just looking at some of their more recent champs.
Cecilus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=fhEM4Jn9,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-19T23:05:22.550+0000) > > triple pentakill off of one ult. Wait...WHAt? are you playing some secret game mode in which four team fight on the rift at once? What the Void is a "Triple Pentakill"? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
apparently I failed my wordsmithing roll. The joke was that summoners rifts are next to each other, so my game was affected by a Qiyana ulting in a different game. Sorry for the confusion.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: So you're telling me that combo assassins shouldn't exist because they are all about that kill potential? Does that mean Zed is a healthy champion, in your opinion? His utility is actually his own (just shadow swapping) and the burden of skill is entirely on him to use his kit to "perfection". And if you don't agree, what do you think a "perfect" assassin should feel and play like, while still retaining the Assassin class qualities - KILL POTENTIAL?
Maybe Riot is looking at pro games where good players with perfect ping and highly coordinated teams are getting obliterated by Qiyana ults, and then using that to inform decisions into balancing. But you're probably right that she has the tag assassin so she should be able 1v9 games. Hell, she probably needs buffs because teammates are heavy. At least she has the thighs to carry.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NyklrmYW,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2019-08-20T09:31:16.824+0000) > > People that play jungle don't generally want to play a character that builds enchanter support items. They tend to play characters like one shot Rengar or snowplow Hecarim. > > Unless he's obnoxiously OP I don't think he'll ever have a good play rate. The idea is freaking amazing actually. As a JG who owns him though, pulling him off is actually an effort in futility. Head trash tier. If you take forever to perfectly matter him he becomes kinda ok.
I'm not saying that the idea isn't neat, but it's an odd one off champion. It's the only jungle champion to have a unique clear mechanic because it's the only one that doesn't build damage. It's also the only jungle champion that has {{item:3504}} {{item:3107}} as recommended items. Not really sure why it's contentious to say that there are probably a lot of jungle mains who don't like the idea of playing a supporty support, but apparently it is.
: I don't think win rate is a reliable statistic to determine strong or weak champs at pro level. The draft is different, their teamwork is different, their skill level is different. Sometimes bad teams copy what is "meta" even if they arent good at it so it tanks champion stats. Someone may be very good with that champ, so they get focused pressure from jungle and another lane that you don't see happen often in Solo Q. Stats again look bad even if champ is strong. You mention thinking a team "wins" a draft if they pick a certain champ, though I've seen plenty of matches where Akali isn't a win-win factor. A team taking TK or Karma to save their carry picks and avoid their actual carry champs from being counter picked is a small victory in drafting, never a loss.
I'm confused as to why you think win rate of champions picked across various pro regions is a bad indicator of how good a champion is at the pro level? I guess I wasn't specific, I was looking for win rates specifically at pro games. I also understand that the game still has to be played and that comps that look sub-optimal at champ select can snowball and win.
: Yasuo is weak, problem is he's also super annoying. Add to that other champs like Ivern useless 0% pick rate and the question isn't why buff yasuo (though we all know it's to appease the high pop of yas players) the question is why have champs like Ivern and others with almost no play rate been neglected? End of the day riots choosing to focus a high play rate champ to cater to those players without considering the negative impact to people that dislike matching against him which is even higher. All the while champs that need love bad have been neglected (not just Ivern who is finally getting a rework). Poor prioritization IMO and I don't even mind playing against Yas.
People that play jungle don't generally want to play a character that builds enchanter support items. They tend to play characters like one shot Rengar or snowplow Hecarim. Unless he's obnoxiously OP I don't think he'll ever have a good play rate.
: How it feels like to lane against Illaoi.
Came in expecting media of japanese origin. Surprisingly leaving disappointed (I did not know that about myself).
: It's simple, these champs have versatility which make them viable in pro hands. For starters, both Karma and TK assist other champs well. Even if they can be "weak" alone, they offer synergy that a strong carry champ would not. Karma is a valuable flex option. If you want to make an early pick which can be used in more than one lane or role, Karma is safe and difficult to counter pick as you may guess the wrong lane. TK can sometimes flex outside bot lane as well, but even when he isn't, he is a VERY beefy tank, can either protect and save an ally, or possibly isolate an enemy to be taken down, and the flanking potential of his Ult is always strong. I'd be more surprised to see a Galio pick currently.
I would like to see the stats on their win rate. I thought I saw some stats on pro games where karma was top/mid and the win rate was dismal (I think it was in the 10%-25% range), but I don't think that was this split and I can't find it again. If you can force your opponent onto a 25% win rate champ I would consider that winning champ select. But to check this I would have to find a good site that has the information broken down in a consumable way, and I would want to filter out the patch where they temporarily buffed her shield. I didn't see the stats on Tahm, but just from watching a few different regions I think he falls into the same trap, especially after his top lane nerfs. If you can force a Tahm into the opponents team comp then you won champ select. I may be wrong on this one, because it's not like I watch every game. It's basically the opposite of the way I feel about Akali and Qiyana. If you can get one or both of those on your team you're likely to steam roll the enemy. I consider the top lane {{champion:266}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:85}} mix up to be fairly neutral, although I could be wrong on this too.
: "Qiyana isn't that strong"
I think I was in a game and the qiyana one game over ulted the boundary wall. She ended up getting a triple pentakill off of one ult.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bazerka,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKtfBnRu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-19T21:32:33.810+0000) > > I'd assume (emphasizing the **assume** part here) that the team is taking their time in how they want to respond. Imo I'd rather receive a slow, but well thought out response than a quick and dirty one. Emotions tend to run high in situations like these, and no one wants to say something they might regret :) The shit show is the best when they give quick responses, though. You tend to see what they really think and how they really feel when they do that. Spewing out corporate bullshit is pointless because no one buys it anyway.
> [{quoted}](name=BlackKnightJack,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKtfBnRu,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2019-08-19T21:59:28.752+0000) > > The shit show is the best when they give quick responses, though. You tend to see what they really think and how they really feel when they do that. Spewing out corporate bullshit is pointless because no one buys it anyway. You should never listen to a company. Only pay attention to what they do.
: i'm confused by this post.
I think pro teams over value some champions that seem to always underperform. Karma is one of those, where I've seen her picked a number of times mid and top. It always seems like she putters out @20 minutes and if the team wins it's not because she's bringing anything to the game. On the flip side I've seen her fall off that cliff @20 and the enemy laner wins the game because split push pressure. It seems like she is a terrible pick but pro teams keep picking her. Same thing for tahm. The one devour and die just doesn't affect the game like other supports, but teams keep picking him. Again I've seen him win a few times, but I think his presence far outpaces his performance. Kind of wondering if there are other champs who other people see this in.
Rioter Comments
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: This is a common "looking for a scapegoat" problem. They end up being in a tough spot that they can't get out of and the idea in their minds is if they're losing their lane due to some circumstances (mid or jungle pressure), they want to see the advantage in some other lanes - if the roaming mid is the cause of their problems, they expect to see the enemy mid turret or plates down more than on their team. If the jungler is the problem, bot and mid should be getting more pressured on the enemy side due to your jungler or even dragons being taken. If we're talking about pro games, sure. Being advantageous in one situation means you hypothetically have an opening somewhere else that the enemy team can exploit. But we're not SKT, we don't have perfect rotations or eyes on every enemy action or intent. So they look for a scapegoat to blame this all on, even if this is a support that literally has nothing to do with the ecosystem of the top lane.
I hear you. I've had people flame me for something as small as starting {{item:3304}} instead of {{item:3303}} . Not that these people actually understand that there are many reasons to start coin first, such as getting income in the mid game, or playing a matchup where you are going to face a lot of harass and can't effectively trade.
afmghost (NA)
: We need more of this in the world
Are you telling me that I need to escort more low hp soraka's back to her base?
Snowbrand (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QyUYuZtn,comment-id=000700000000000200000000,timestamp=2019-08-19T17:18:40.125+0000) > > What you are attempting to say is that you don't think extreme MS boosts are a type of mobility, and what I'm saying is that they ARE. Especially when coupled with a dash/stun and camo. And yes, pyke is very mobile, as he has multiple mobility options that are very effective and provide him with many decisional and tactical options, and on top of that, immobile champs have virtually no way of catching him until he engages them and decides to stick around instead of running, since he stun and MS boost are guaranteed against such champs. I actually have an easier time chasing down a zed as darius with ghost on, than pyke. Both are still extremely hard to catch, but zed is slightly more catchable. The problem is that without ghost, a champ like darius has zero chance of forcing either of those two into a fight, and 100% relies and getting 5 stacks on one of their allies and trying to burst them during a short window of opportunity. Basically, the stars have to align. Yes, you are right, I agree it's a form of mobility. He is mobile, but he isn't very mobile. He is pretty standard as a mobile champ(Irelia, Yassuo like that would be very mobile). Lee Sin and Vi are more like his level of mobility. Idk, I think pyke is a pretty well designed overall. He is supposed to be slippery to catch and I think that's fine. Whenever pyke go in to ult, you have a lot of good oportunities to shut him down.
The funny thing is that back in season 3 lee sin use to be the poster child of champions of mobility creep in champions. The fact that you are calling him a middish mobility champion is actually highlighting the issue the OP was making.
: I've had 13 chat bans and the worst thing I've ever called someone was "moron". Rito's idea of toxicity in game is pathetic. People can ruin 100+ games for there team with no consequence. Hurt someone's feelings with "negative words" however? Here comes the chat bans. Keep your virtual bribes! Free speech forever! :D
I had a jungler the other day who got their red taken by an adc. I get it, rage out for a few, it sucks. But this guy kept going for the entire game. I don't know how he typed that much. He said more in one game then I would in an entire 16 hour power session, including pre and post game chat. Even if he wasn't using any specific language there comes a point where you have to get over it.
: I got my ban from one of those super tilting games where you almost win but somehow end up losing, I kinda deserved it. Thing is though, it only gave me a 2 week ban, hence the name, and when I thought the ban was over and was ready to get off this ''temporary'' account, the ban somehow became permanent. So now I'm stuck with this, ever since then I've tried to avoid hard-flaming and gotten less toxic.
I try not to hard flame. Honestly I think the most triggering thing for other people is when I start being hyper-positive. Like positive to the point of delusion. Some people find that infuriating.
: It's also there to prevent double gold gen lanes from appearing. e.g. double spellthiefs bot or top
{{item:3303}} {{item:3307}} If you're going dual gold gen that's the way it's done, so one person can keep farming.
: "Qiyana isn't that strong"
I've seen too many pro games where she half deletes a team that dares enter the jungle. But her and akali are the kind of champions Riot wants, because that's what they keep making.
: Can we stop with this "boo hoo jungle gets flamed a ton so that's the reason we're toxic" BS for a minute? You aren't toxic because you get flamed a lot, you're toxic because your personality allows you to be. Someone who answers flame with a snarky comment won't suddenly become toxic because of jungling. That's a cheap excuse to load off the blame on others.
People look to blame others when they aren't doing well. The easiest target is jungle, because their job is to babysit your losing lane and bad trading patterns. As someone that sometimes plays off meta supports sometimes I get this too. If my toplaner goes 0/8 in lane they suddenly become very interested in my summoners, runes, champ, build, and kda. Oddly when they're winning this inspection doesn't happen.
IainG10 (EUW)
: Shit like this is why I moved to Lux/Morg Support most games; oh, you have mobility, that's cute.... I've basically completely dropped Braum and Rakan (Rakan has mobility himself, but with the changes to his E, he's not so good at catching others I've found), as well as Raka and Nami (can't get the hang of Nami's Q). Only tank I really play is Leona, or occasionally Blitz or Thresh if the enemy botlane is (relatively) immobile....
I play morg a lot (I don't think I have lux) and I know the feeling. Just sit there fishing with binds, and if one lands you can push them out of lane even if they don't die. Plus you get to play the entire game regardless of how potato your team is. I would count Yuumi as part of this club as well. You can get killed a few times early but still have fun later in the game. The fun in playing a support tank comes down to if any play you make matters, which means you're hoping your teammates aren't potato. Not a good bet to take. I've also been playing some support AP MF. It sounds stupid, and it honestly kinda is, but it works better than most people give it credit for. And you get called troll a lot. I still try to play enchanters some too, but it sucks being knocked down by a stiff breeze and having next to no kill pressure. Still better than support tank.
: Yes I totally agree. That's the problem with the "just buy QSS" argument, aka, it doesn't fit in a lot of builds on a lot of champs, but it's literally the only counterplay unless you are straight up stronger than morde. Which supports basically never are. And yeah, you make good points about Panth. What I LIKE about his new E though, is that it is a solid new ability type that NEGATES damage rather than increasing it. He basically lost damage over his original E, but if there were more abilities like this, it would actually help tremendously in this over inflated mobility/damage meta.
Hah, and then you see Garen where they're removing tankiness and adding in more true damage and lawnmower. Honestly I expect all non-support champions to get additional mobility on rework, and new champions are going to be stuffed full of fuckery. New champions drive sales and if they're not pro banworthy on release then who cares blah blah blah.
Sucction (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=PzyXo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QyUYuZtn,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-17T23:30:18.343+0000) > > I literally hate nothing in the game except adcs and AP assassins. I wish they didn't exist. these shits are just too op AP Assassins? There's not really many. I suppose LeBlanc and Ekko can be annoying, but who else is there, really? Diana is just a big statcheck meme, she's annoying as fuck but I wouldn't say she's played nearly enough to get on my nerves. Am I missing a couple? Did Fizz suddenly become strong again?
I've seen more Diana's and Fizz lately. Fizz got a buff to taking DoT for some reason, don't know if there were any Diana changes. Kat seems to have a decent win rate too, although I don't think you can blind pick her. I'm assuming that akali is still an AP assassin.
: I mostly agree, and while morde's kit in isolation is cool, I have to admit that his ult can be unfair if you can't afford to put QSS in your build, and if he's ahead. However, I don't think that Panth's kit with the new directional invulnerability is so bad. It can be counterplayed without needing insane mobility, and he does so little damage in the duration of that ability. Plus it gives him interesting new choices. On the other hand, he doesn't really have significantly more mobility than before, as he already had a jump, and his ult was similar, but MUCH slower and harder to land, except with better range I believe.
The biggest problem with QSS is that it leads nowhere for anyone that isn't an ad champion. Since I'm mainly a support player, that means it's a dead end item. The real problem with mord is he either goes 8/0 or 0/8 in lane, and by the time I interact with him he's either dive you @15 minutes and kill you under your tower nuclear or a takedown stack. I also don't think panth's kit has much additional mobility, outside of being able to move while doing his multispear thing. But his kit isn't what I would consider immobile either. While I don't think that his directional immunity is necessarily a problem on him it's just another thing they can stuff into already full kits, so we can expect every other champion in the future to have some version of it.
IainG10 (EUW)
: I only ever get it on Shield/Heal squishies. I see plenty of them on Thresh or Leona or Blitz, and then I subsequently see those engage tanks get melted because they sacrificed survivability for it. The only engage tank I would EVER buy it on is Taric, because he will actually get use out of the stats and the passives the item comes with.
I struggle with it on taric. My taric build order looks something like: {{item:3305}} {{item:3111}} going into these {{item:3050}} {{item:3118}} {{item:3504}} Of course it all depends on situation. If I was to go long enough to get 6 items I think I would get {{item:3190}} or {{item:2065}}
Snowbrand (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QyUYuZtn,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-08-18T18:07:47.178+0000) > > So your argument is "..bu bu bu but muh LCS big plays!". > > The problem is how do you power budget around characters that can almost always have another on command wall jump or other safe disengage/reengage tool? Do you make it so they get curbstomped in lane by champions that don't have those safety tools? Riot doesn't think so, which is why we can have champions with 45% win rates that are still OP, it's just that the slobbering masses are too potato to play them. > > On the flip side support role is filled with champions that either have a engage only tool (alistar/leona) or can only rely on good positioning (soraka, janna, sona, etc). With all the mobility in the game, combined with the high damage burst meta, these champions are useless if your team isn't ahead because they're little more than high reward minions. > > Grounding is also crap because only 2(?) champions have it. Can't wait for the grounding immune multidash champion that they are probably working on. Even on lower elo too I would say. It's good for the game being less statchecky and more open to outplays and so on. Then there have to be ways you can play against it, but cc is always good to shutdown mobility. Mobility have existed for a long time with champions like talon, zed, riven. Obviously, that have worked for 7-8 years. you might say, but cc is hard to hit. Yes, but it's also hard to use mobility right. Both usually requires skill. Most high mobility champs have decent winrates except akali, irelia and kalista maybe. I don't mind them having lower winrates then the average champion, since they usually takes more skill. Yea, I agree that a lot of those older champions need some kind of updates to stay relevant tho. To make them more suited. That doesn't mean that you have to give them mobility too. Stuff like Swain, Mordekaiser, Pantheon, morgana for example are doing good without getting mobility in their kits. Poppy, Singed and Cassio. Think that's fine, maye 1 or 2 more champions that have it. As I said, any CC counter dashes too. Just pick ahri, malzahar or Lissandra for example.
CC counters everything. Too much tank? CC it til it dies. Too much dps? CC it til it dies. I think we can agree that falling back to a balance argument based on CC is going to go nowhere. The champs you brought up are also questionable. Talon - reworked to have more mobility with a wall jump Riven - either op or useless, has been a balance nightmare for years. Mostly because the basic idea of a 1v9 AoE multidash champion doesn't start from a healthy position. Zed - Either zero or hero, depending on items and runes at any given time. Either you can kill them and win once you hit 6, or he's garbage tier Swain - dunno much about him, maybe you're right Mordekaiser - He has a pull that cancels mobility and the ability to force them to fight in a small arena where they can't use most disengage mobility. Definitely part of the new fuckery. Panth - long range jump, short range jump. The biggest piece of fuckery creep here is his directional immunity, which we can expect more of. Morgana - They nerf her every time she goes to mid lane, so she's allowed to exist in the "no mobility support" bubble. But the point of mobility creep is that they just keep overstuffing kits with more and more mobility (and other fuckery), but they undervalue how much that is worth in securing or denying kills, so the older champions just keep falling behind. It also feeds into this "one trick" mentality that you can exist on getting good with one champion, because that champion can 1v1 anything if you get good enough. And those akali/yasuo/riven/irelia/(and it looks like qiyana) one tricks are by far the most toxic in the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=611FVNKBlv,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QyUYuZtn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-18T03:53:12.855+0000) > > cant wait for the garen "rework" next patch. he is turning from aids to cancer i guess ^^ what garen rework {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
I've only heard about it in passing, but something about his spin to win getting more hits with attack speed. And it applies on hit abilities. So {{item:3153}} But like I said, I only heard about it in passing, he may be a {{item:3031}} user by now.
Snowbrand (EUW)
: I think it's a myth sort of, mobility is needed for outplays and higher skillceling in the game. It's just a natural evolution of a game that used to be based on point and click champs (autoattacks are still only point and click atm) and only one way to move around, making outplays especially at higher levels less and less comon and the game more predictable and less interesting. There is already counterplay to high mobility like grounding effects or cc. Tho, slows should affect mobility spells to slow the speed/range of dashes for example, I think.
So your argument is "..bu bu bu but muh LCS big plays!". The problem is how do you power budget around characters that can almost always have another on command wall jump or other safe disengage/reengage tool? Do you make it so they get curbstomped in lane by champions that don't have those safety tools? Riot doesn't think so, which is why we can have champions with 45% win rates that are still OP, it's just that the slobbering masses are too potato to play them. On the flip side support role is filled with champions that either have a engage only tool (alistar/leona) or can only rely on good positioning (soraka, janna, sona, etc). With all the mobility in the game, combined with the high damage burst meta, these champions are useless if your team isn't ahead because they're little more than high reward minions. Grounding is also crap because only 2(?) champions have it. Can't wait for the grounding immune multidash champion that they are probably working on.
: Pink wards lasted for ever, u could put as many as you wanted, and they went invisible like regular wards did tho...and they werent that much more expensive either... It was very much a win more scenario
I'm not sure which season you're talking about, but I thought in s3/4 a pink was a 3 minute ward that revealed things in stealth, including other wards. It also didn't shut down vision like control wards. Could be wrong, it was a long time ago.
: >Wards were limited by gold. Spend more on wards? Slow down snowball. Unless you have the bitch role, support, just buy all of the wards possible. I remember playing games where I won because I was willing to have brown boots and 2 gp10 items up until 40 minutes while the other support had the gall to get 1 item, and that was the sole reason they lost. Hell, do you remember the season 2 CLG EU vs WE series? 60 minutes, and the Janna ends with heart of gold, philo stone, a ruby crystal, and brown boots. That shit suuuuucked. Being able to buy vision contributed to snowballing. You had longer games because everything was low risk given the infinite vision both teams had, but it was much harder to stage a comeback because the winning team had more money to buy the unlimited vision denial available to them through pinks or through oracle's elixir, and had more ablility to kill the oracle's holder. That map control turned into farm advantages, which turned into wins. Season 4 was much better for comebacks than season 2 because of this, particularly in competitive play.
I remember I always wanted to get the aegis that gave the team magic defense aura in season 3.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8fQme1Ni,comment-id=000e0001,timestamp=2019-08-18T06:17:52.194+0000) > > Usually not deathcap because it is too expensive, You know you've seen it... {{champion:99}} {{item:3089}} Sure, not **every** game but you know it's a thing.
I'm sure someone does it, but when I support {{champion:25}} it tends to look like {{item:3165}} {{item:3092}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3285}} . The deathcap is just so expensive to pull off, and you're already behind as support unless you're playing a potato lane.
Velasan (NA)
: The current items are actually weaker for vision as you cannot rush the vision portion. The quest has to be completed first. In the past you could rush straight to your sight stone if you wanted to.
Unless you were steamrolling the enemy bot lane you probably weren't going to beat a 10 minute quest timer.
: That’s an absolutely valid point. However, it’s worth noting that the winning team would have to spend an incredible amount of gold to accomplish that. Wards were not cheap. And denying vision wasn’t done easily or for free via a trinket. You would need to buy even more expensive pink wards to find and clear enemy wards. The reality is the win more situations really did not change much. The winning team can still use all their wards in the enemy jungle. Now they can also clear the opposing team’s vision for free. They can dominate vision plants and scuttles and get even more vision. Now, the winning team does the same thing they used to do, but for free, and with even less recourse for the losing team. This is just the vision aspect of things. If you include changes to baron, dragon, rift herald, turret plating, and others, it becomes fairly obvious that the game favors the winning team more than ever. 30+ minute comebacks were fairly common until season 4, when trinkets were introduced. Don’t forget that spending all that gold on vision would curb your snowball. You could and would easily spend hundreds if not thousands of gold on vision back then. Vision wars substantially limited how much money you were spending on items. The only issue, which still remains with control wards, was that eventually you are going to get to 6 items and you would not be able to hold more wards, forcing supports to keep a slot open for tons of wards.
Supports didn't really get to 5 items back then, unless the game went to 60+ minutes.
Shijano (NA)
: Riot should make support items have stats that only supports would want. I believe that Supports can have a separate class of stats that other roles would not abuse and make the supports scale with those stats. Utility stats could be like the already existent shield and heal power, bring back item active CD, ability percent increase, defences, mana and health with the regens, CDR, number of wards on map increase, ward time increase, ward CD decrease. Also, honestly I think supports should not have scalings with AD and AP. Make their base scalings better and remove damage scalings so that their items will not need AD and AP so that other roles will not abuse their items because they get no power from it. Just a small piece of my mind, I'm too lazy to fully type out the details of how the game could be balanced around this when Riot isn't going to care about these post or much of any thing we support mains say.
I disagree with supports having more wards. As it is we carry the lions share of warding, but it is suppose to be a team activity. As for the ward timers it wouldn't really matter, since we already use sweeper trinkets and the wards in our support items don't regen over time. Enchanter and tank supports already have some of the lowest ap scaling in the game, but I think removing it completely is going too far. I am all in support of removing CDR for all non-support items, and being able to cast more spells that are less potent. I floated the idea a while back, but all the top laners threw a hissy fit because their build requires 40% cdr and if they didn't get 20% from black cleaver it would be the end of days. Still think this is the one stat that can be support items specific, and the game would be better for it.
: New _"Support"_ Items: {{item:3285}} {{item:3041}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3151}}
: Hmmm, sounds like Riven and Jax.
Yuumi (dash/untargetable), rakan (dash, dash (+redash), speed boost), kayn (dash, speed boost terrain ignore, untargetable), pyke (speed boost stealth, dash, dash execute), Qiyana (dash, dash, stealth), etc. The mobility creep has gotten so bad that it's probably easier to list champs that don't have some kind of fuckery in their kit.
: Mobility creep is at a point where some champs are just allowed to outright oppress immobile champs as long as they are useless against mobile champs (because being powerless against mobility creep is such a staggering drawback) {{champion:223}} for example, riot keeps buffing his slow on his q as "compensation buffs" to them making him worse against mobile champs. (removing stacking mechanic on q) Now whenever I play tahm kench I know who I wont have trouble killing and completely bullying from playing the game no matter how good they are, and who I cant even touch no matter bad they are, before champ select is even finished.
Mobility creep is when trying to make champions feel unique they continuously add more immunities, speed boosts, blinks, dashes, untargetables, stealths. teleports, terrain ignores, or other fuckery. The problem comes in that the champions who don't have any power budget wrapped up in those abilities should steamroll them in lane, but that's not allowed so the immobile champions end up with less power overall. It also make good positioning impossible, which makes playing immobile champions unrewarding.
: Can Bard’s next Skin be Serious?
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8fQme1Ni,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2019-08-17T20:47:16.441+0000) > > {{item:3107}} is the most overrated item on the boards. The fight is usually well beyond won or lost before the active hits, and the crap stats that are on it are what riot has to put on support items to keep solo laners from taking them. Every now and then it snatches victory from the jaws of defeated with its active. But it's amazing that it actually made a significant difference when it does. I mostly just get it with ardent and/or Mikael's to further boost shield/heal power.
I get it often enough, but it's more because "it's something I can afford" and not "OMFG THIS IS AMAZING EVERY GAME!!!". I've had games where it makes a difference, but it's not like getting a gunblade on akali or something. It has stats, it's better than nothing, and supports can afford it.
: supports can litteraly build whatever they want right now and i mean litteraly anything {{item:3301}} if you get a kill early lets say an early fight in jungle and you pick up the kill with ignite you can litteraly get {{item:3069}} on your first back with how much gold you will naturally get in lane plus assists. the way support is built right now you are rewarded for playing aggro with kill lanes which then lead to you having another assassin as a support that can one shot someone. i miss the days when supports were actually suports would stack health resstancs n such. atm suports need a nerf of sorts and honestly reverting back to the old support items would be great and just give them a gp10 effect instead of this crazy just stand there and make 1k gold in 10 mins kind of item
With runes it's easier to go all offensive. If you're picking a support tank or enchanter support you're dodging skillshots until they run out of mana. Enchanters and tanks also get shafted compared to mages in that they have much tighter mp economies. Plus it's easier to make a focused offensive rune page than a supportive rune page. They've designed the system around it, so they're getting what they want.
: Most support players would count {{item:3107}} as a core item and arguably one of the strongest items in the game.
{{item:3107}} is the most overrated item on the boards. The fight is usually well beyond won or lost before the active hits, and the crap stats that are on it are what riot has to put on support items to keep solo laners from taking them.
: > [{quoted}](name=Xphineas,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=v7dYQmlE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-12T03:53:39.904+0000) > > As someone who plays kalista somewhat I agree to an extent. I think her binding/ultimate is very unique and it makes her one of the more fun adcs in the game, same with her W passive. > > To answer your question, shes nerfed because of her passive. Her passive are the hops she can do, these hops make her the best kiting ADC in the game. These hops can instantly activate sudden impact over and over, her E is also a big issue. Her spears stick into enemies, she can then call them back doing base damage +damage per spear. If they can throw out another ryze rework, for the 8th time, they can fix Kalista
> [{quoted}](name=S5WTBSEFS9,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=v7dYQmlE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-08-12T04:09:17.206+0000) > > If they can throw out another ryze rework, for the 8th time, they can fix Kalista Every time they rework ryze he becomes even more zero or hero, so maybe that's not the best example you can give.
CJXander (EUNE)
: Pool Party Ahri - Login screen
Why is she so flat chested?
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QOln6Zhs,comment-id=00050000000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-11T04:20:01.944+0000) > > You're defining the only position a champion can play. > > If you're going to do that then are we going to nerf gold generation for a top champion that farms a minion outside of top lane? Nerf mids outside of mid? Jungles only get xp off of jungle monsters? > > That also means that bot lane will become a counter pick nightmare, more than any top lane matchup. Play braum and the enemy doesn't shoot at you to shut you out? Play soraka and they only target you with attacks so you don't get your heal gold? This idea is a balance cluster. Braum specifically has the tools to get his gold whether or not you want him to have any. If you target his ally he can jump to him and then shield up. If you don't try to deal any damage, then he and his laner are free to engage you with high health. Champions who don't have tools to do so should be given those tools (aka increase skill floor of "braindead" support champions a bit.) Also, it's not like actual supports aren't already hardcore pigeonholed in botlane support. Brand is a mage that can presently function botlane, but when's the last time any dedicated warden or enchanter played became meta outside of botlane? Plus, to counter that, many champions could have mechanics that specifically promote roaming supports or funneling strategies and other playstyles that currently don't exist at all in healthy ways, if at all possible. Also; Jungle *already* does this by giving more EXP to smite item users than anyone else.
Smite is a summoner spell, it's not locked into champions. We're locking champions into roles remember, only you want to hose supports. Alistar has been jungle before, and his recommended items includes both support and jungle builds. Bard can go multiple lanes and/or jungle, although it's rare (as is bard himself) Fiddle is both support and jungle built Karma can go any lane Top lulu is occasionally a thing Lux is dual role Morg is dual role etc etc etc And no, it's easy to play passive and not trade a bunch. This is the standard strat when people try to go without a support item, you play much more passive and you starve them out of the game. Pretending that it's not going to happen if it becomes the core bot lane strat is silly, because that's what people do now. But this isn't going to happen anyway.
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Bugog

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