: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oYpZ834n,comment-id=0010000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-25T02:31:25.127+0000) > > If the mage support doesn't constantly get kills, or take cs from laners, they're going to stall out. If the mage support is constantly getting kills, they probably deserve to win. The problem that was happening last season is they even if they didn't get a lot of kills they would constantly get gold, so they could always aim for the expensive AP items. Now if they do that they have a much greater chance of stalling out. This is said quite often, and while it is a legitimate concern, I feel it could use a bit of mathematical context. Frostfang could generate up to 22 gold x 3, every 30 seconds or 66 gold every minion wave. At 25+ minutes, each minion wave is worth 195 gold. So the support item used to absolute perfection was granting 66/195 = 33.8 % of a laner's income clearing full waves. Is that really too much... probably not at the 25+ minute mark. However, I think that it _was_ probably slightly too strong immediately after completion (Frostfang). I am glad you posted this however, because it gave me a good idea about how this might be addressed without completely screwing over supports. Tier 1: same as current item (the reduced mana regen hurts but I think that was intended) Tier 2: same but +50% mana regen Tier 3: 40AP, 10% CDR, and tribute gold goes up to 20 or 22 So supports would lose 20 AP, gain a small amount of mana regen, 10% CDR (but later than before) and maintain the old or similar tribute gold. However, the bonus damage on spells would remain gone, and most importantly the new part: Anyone in possession of a support item only gains 2/3rds gold from minions/jungle camps at ALL times. This means the item can never be abused by **_anyone_** to gain more than 100% of their intended income. The AP decrease 20 -> 15, delay on the CDR, and absence of bonus damage relative to FrostFang would also make it much less attractive to non-supports I imagine. For the melee item, have it switch to the coin passive upon quest completion. The stats could be adjusted a bit too along similar lines. The above is just one example of something reasonable that might be done to address the issue. Forcing all supports gold income to practically 0 after quest completion is not.
Honestly I'm interested to see how the season shakes out if supports don't get a lot of gold. There's a certain skill involved in having an impact in fights without good items. The only things I don't like is the lack of CDR and how vulnerable we are to one shot assassins.
: I feel like midlaners and toplaners would abuse the spellthief's passive more, so my solution would to be to probably keep the minion rule on those, but remove it on the relic passive items, kind of like last season where, if you last hit a minion with spellthiefs, it would stop the gold generation passive.
That creates the situation where both bot laners can take support items. Like the garren yuumi bot lane.
Voluug13 (NA)
: Its less of a nerf because those champions have both the damage to kill and the excuse to take gold from kills since they scale with some gold way harder that any enchanter or tank. Compared to basically every enchanter or non-hook tank that was balanced around getting a decent amount of gold and nerfed accordingly, where the massive nerf means that a lot of those champions will never see beyond 1-2 items, and scale considerably worse on any game that goes beyond 20 minutes.
If the mage support doesn't constantly get kills, or take cs from laners, they're going to stall out. If the mage support is constantly getting kills, they probably deserve to win. The problem that was happening last season is they even if they didn't get a lot of kills they would constantly get gold, so they could always aim for the expensive AP items. Now if they do that they have a much greater chance of stalling out.
Voluug13 (NA)
: Its rather obvious that those changes were made with Pyke and Senna in mind, since they are about the only supports with kill pressure at same skill levels. This is a gigantic nerf to actual supports and a buff to Didnt Get Mid/Adc™ ''supports''.
I would say quite the opposite. This is a huge nerf to mage supports like brand, lux, etc, who went frostfang > ludens > deathcap (or other expensive AP items). Now they will get 2 items and they have to choose between letting the solo laners get the money and taking it for themselves. It massively nerfs someone, while making it so that enchanters don't fall off a cliff because all their AP ratios are garbage.
: Support items is like you're invited to a party but you're not allowed to drink or eat
I said on the boards in the middle of the season that the only way to get mages out of bot lane was going to be attacking the gold generation so they can't fund the expensive mage items (ludens, deathcap) instead of the support items. Only thing I didn't see was gold getting nerfed so bad that supports can't afford support items either.
Barso55 (NA)
: Lack of Aura Support Items
The problem with aura items is how required they become if they're relevant. It reminds me of the season 3 aegis/locket where you gave everyone near 20 or 30 magic resist. It was a must buy, but it wouldn't help in the current bot lane mage clownshow. Bot mages are bananas off the first and second back*, and a properly cost aura item would be out of reach at those points. *this is assuming that tier 2 gold item + boots for first back, second back is probably up to lost chapter gold
: What? Sejuani got gutted because people who play her were seeing success with her before they buffed both cinderhulk and her W in the same patch. Then she became an unkillable monster with the ability to 100-0 an ADC at any point in the game with her combo. She instant cleared camps meaning there was no way you would ever be behind in farm provided you understood pathing even a tiny bit, and provides the most reliable flash CC in the game with a passive that allows for diving turrets very early on in the game. There was no downside to the champion, she was just incredibly strong with no weaknesses. So they hit the W back to where it was before the buff, as that was the change that made her busted. I'm sorry but I shouldn't be able to walk into a Rek'Sai level 3 for scuttle and win that trade, get the scuttle, and even if it becomes a 3v3 for top or bottom crab I still win because I'm a busted champion with too much % damage in my kit. OH AND THIS IS % DAMAGE BASED ON YOUR OWN HEALTH, for a champion that only builds health. She won every matchup except against Kindred who wasn't strong at the time. I'm sorry but that isn't ok, and that's why she got nerfed. Being able to pick a champion knowing that you are going to be able to do whatever you want the entire game because noone can touch you is just ridiculously broken, and welcome to why she eventually got nerfed. I don't think gold players should comment on whether a champion should or shouldn't be nerfed, because as you can tell with this post, you gold players have no clue how strong things actually are.
Why do you feel the need to hide behind a noob account when calling people out for their rank? According to stat sites she was already bottom 3 or 4 junglers on 9.16 at plat+ ranks. They nerfed her damage and now she's bottom 2, with a sub 45% wr plat+. Holy cow it's like plat players or better are struggling with her because of how much they've gutted her.
: MF support during Worlds
Your question isn't clear. How would it be frowned upon by the matchmaking system?
Zounatic (EUW)
: Possible Karma Mini-Rework?
Karma is an early game champion. All you did is remove her early game, and she is just as useless late game. It has nothing to do with her ratios, and has everything to do with her range. Mages like {{champion:99}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:134}} have range. Karma does not. Once the enemy carries get to a point where they can 3 bang her with {{item:3031}} {{item:3094}} the's done as a solo laner, and turns into the second support with {{item:3504}} {{item:3174}} . More ratio on her Q isn't going to help. Her time as Cinderella is over, she's back to being a peasant. Just think of it this way: Early game her passive matters because she can stay in auto range. She can be in range to Q. She can stay in range long enough with W to get the second proc, and with mantra allows her to win trades. Her E allows her to stay in range to proc w and further helps her win trades. What does she do late game? Her passive becomes weak because she doesn't get autos off. Her Q puts her in range to get engaged on. She sure as hell isn't staying in range long enough to get the second proc of W unless they found someone way out of position. She's reduced to being an E bot, and hopefully she can make a good use of the mantra bonus. It's useless to have an early game champion if you let people get out of the early game on equal footing.
: Possible TFT Comp - Poison
I think the name of the comp should be BBD. Mostly because BBD sounds better than Alice Cooper.
Ventira (NA)
: To be fair, statistically, he is the worst champion in League. Up until August of this season, every champion currently in League at the time has had at least one LCS Win, and been picked more, then Garen.
Garen has won every LCS match I've been part of.
: Karma's Mantra Q detonation ratio has also been nerfed but is not listed/specified in patch notes
Her support and mid lane win rate are dumpstered. Her top lane win rate is down slightly. For just $0.15 a day you too can feed a starving Karma. She's pretty much the posterchild about how silly the Riot balance team is. She was in a good place in soloq, she had fallen out of favor in the pro scene, and they still go ahead and nerf her into the ground. What a joke.
: It's accepted because you get as many smurfs on your team as the enemy team if you play a large amount of games Edit for the 4/9 and 5/9 chance people that might not see my answer to this point: Given you are not the smurf and there is exactly one smurf in the game, that's absolutely correct I think you'd have to play an unplayable amount of games to show there's a significant difference, though, because the probability of a smurf filling one of those slots is already low Say on average one in 5 games that you don't play has exactly one smurf in, that's 1/50 slots, 2% chance of having a smurf in a slot Chance of a smurf in x of your slots is 4Cx×(0.02)^x×(0.98)^4-x x=0, p=92.237% x=1, p=7.529% x=2, p=0.230% x=3, p=0.00314% x=4, p=0.000016% Chance of smurf in y of enemy slots is 5Cy×(0.02)^y×(0.98)^5-y y=0, p=90.392% y=1, p=9.224% y=2, p=0.376% y=3, p=0.00768% y=4, p=0.0000784% y=5, p=0.00000032% Say you play 300 games, expect 23 games have one smurf on your team, 28 have one smurf on enemy team 5 games in 300, net, lost to smurfs, is close enough to 0 for me
That's not true. There are 5 positions for a smurf on the opposing team, while there are only 4 on your team. Assuming you aren't smurfing yourself. That makes it more of a 55% on their team, 45% on your team.
datfatguy (OCE)
: Why do people choose to not ban a champion
If it's ranked, I think you should ban a champion. If you don't have a strong ban, ask your team what they would like to have banned. If it's normals, people are practicing, so not banning is a way of practicing against all your matchups. What's broken this week and ban-worthy may be the second most broken next week, so you better learn it.
: Time to admit that the blitz buffs were a HUGE mistake!
As someone that plays in bot lane and does not play blitz I would say give it some more time. People need to learn the new range and places that blitz likes to hook from, and it may balance out once people learn to play against him.
: Their Sejuani vs Our Sejuani
Where's the "our yas" that is star wars kid?
: Taking the point out of W is just going to give everyone a truly AFK Yuumi until lvl 2.
That's fine. The early game is really important for champs that want to stack manaflow, and this pushes that back. It also increases the amount of time that the enemy lane can harass before manaflow comes online, which stresses the mp pool. It also allows the enemy more time to harass the bot lane before the sustain comes in, which again stresses yuumi's mp pool. It also gives yuumi a few less spellthief procs. None of these are unrecoverable, but as a support player these are all really annoying. They also give a better window to exploit for early level 1 and level 2 aggressive supports.
: Worst patch ever?
Don't forget kneecapping Karma, who was floating around 49-50% win rate in soloq and had disappeared from proplay in regionals.
: The nerf was targetted at LCS obviously but she is still performing poorly in Soloq atm. If they care about soloq balance ou would of saw her buffed/reworked instead of nerfed.
What I'm saying is that I think they missed, which would include pro play.
Rioter Comments
: I dont think Karma is dead. Her kit will keep her being a broken champ no matter what. If not broken, annoying or toxic, just as Akali, yes she has negative winrate, bad stats, oh well, she still toxic, annoying and broken for many people, no matter if they keep nerfing her, her kit is the "problem".
Karma is like Cinderella. She is a early game princess that magically turns into a peasant support @25 minutes unless the other team is ridiculously far behind.
: I just love how their are 50+ champs that actually deserved a buff, but no lets buff balanced champions.
Or we could nerf balanced ones. {{champion:43}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-25T16:48:40.899+0000) > > {{item:3111}} are one of the best items in the game. The tenacity is the reason to get them, but the MR negates early sorc boots and provides more survivability on top. > > If you're running into a dual mage bot lane they are a good buy. actually rune tenacity is better than mercs. only fiddle might necessitate mercs lol, everyone else you're better off just getting flat dmg or hp.
I don't get your comment. What flat damage or hp is competing with mercs? The rune tenacity isn't stronger than mercs, and you have to get a number of stacks to get it there, so I'm confused by your comment. Not everyone wants to go precision tree either, which is just another problem.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-25T16:04:39.428+0000) > > [Lets watch him complain about mages](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSgn_srf0TE) another day when my isp is playing ball. he did mention that mage skill shots move faster than adc's can dodge before boots 2, while lux was in her pomp. also that MR items are poor but everyone already knows that.
{{item:3111}} are one of the best items in the game. The tenacity is the reason to get them, but the MR negates early sorc boots and provides more survivability on top. If you're running into a dual mage bot lane they are a good buy.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-09-25T15:30:55.055+0000) > > Hashinshin says so much that it would be an anomaly if he didn't get something right. > > But Hashinshin's view of balance is anything that doesn't immediately fold to "bwewsers" at every point in the game is broken. lol where do people get this idea that saying the same thing 4 days in a row is saying "so much"
[Lets watch him complain about mages](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSgn_srf0TE)
: hashinshin was right guys, just say it so we can get to doing something else.
Hashinshin says so much that it would be an anomaly if he didn't get something right. But Hashinshin's view of balance is anything that doesn't immediately fold to "bwewsers" at every point in the game is broken.
: Were we watching the same streams? Fnatic Karma? CG Karma? I don't have the stats but at just an eye test it seems like LEC and LCS playoffs Karma was a high priority. Willing to be proven wrong of course.
I'll do clutch, just to see the numbers: summer split quarter/semi/3rd place (TSM) Picked 1 - (1-0 win/loss) Banned 2 (2 second round bans) (TL) Picked 1 - (0-1 win/loss) Banned 3 (2 first round, 1 second round) (CLG) Picked 3 - (1-2 win/loss) Banned 2 (2 second round bans) Regionals (FQ) Picked 2 (1-1 win/loss) Banned 0 (CLG) Picked 0 Banned 0 (TSM) Picked 0 Banned 0 That was more than I remember, so I decided to look at the rest of the summer quarter/semi/finals CLG-OG Picked 1 (0-1 win/loss) Banned 1 (1st round ban) CLG-C9 Picked 1 (0-1 win/loss) Banned 2 (2 second round ban) C9-TL Picked 1 (0-1 win/loss) Banned 1 (2nd round ban) So I decided to do LEC too: Summer playoffs SPY-RGE Round 1 Picked 0 Banned 0 S04-Vit Round 1 Picked 1 (0-1) Banned 2 (1 first round ban, 1 second round ban) RGE-S04 Round 2 Picked 0 Banned 0 G2-FNC Round 2 Picked 0 Banned 0 FNC-S04 Picked 3 (1-2) Banned 0 G2-FNC Final Picked 1 (0-1) Banned 1 (2nd round band) Regionals OG-SPY Picked 0 Banned 0 S04-SPY Picked 2 (0-2) Banned 0 FNC-SPY Picked 0 Banned 0 So compiling the information: Picked 17 - 4 wins -13 losses Banned 13 - 4 first round bans - 9 second round bans 76 games total between the LCS and LEC summer finals + regionals if I added it up correctly. Looks like a real powerhouse of a champion.
Pyrrhism (NA)
: karma is one of the most contested and safe picks in pro play. although she wasnt picked that often in solo queue, especially as solo lanes, in pro play she is one of the most highly contested solo laners; particularly top.
Karma pick/ban is regional. In LCK it's a high pick/ban top laner. In LPL it's a fairly high pick rate mid laner. In LEC it's a low pick/never ban. In LCS it's a low pick/never ban.
: Oof these karma nerfs ;(
Karma was played a miniscule amount of times outside of support. This egregious breach of etiquette shall not be permitted.
DrDubb (NA)
: Anyone else feels like there is TOO MUCH CDR in the game?
I've said it before, and riven main came out of the woodwork to shout at me, but CDR should be a support item stat. That creates a system where carries stack AP/AD so their abilities have high impact damage, but supports can cast their support/disruption abilities more often at the cost of damage.
: Contrary to popular belief, Nickelback is low-key the greatest band to ever exist. Change my mind.
: It's because there's so much AP she can get out of Transcendence/CDR and Athene's/% Mana Regen She can get 110 AP from Athene's Passive (That's efficiency lol) and 60 AP from Transcendence... it's like she starts a step ahead with her base damage and then never stops accelerating. Those numbers are from {{item:3092}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3107}} {{item:3222}} {{item:2065}} --- Athene's got buffed ages ago when enchanter items got nerfed so that it was unaffected: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2018/05/531-pbe-update-new-summoner-icon-emote.html Now enchanter items have been re-buffed, Athene's sticks out as quite a powerful item. It's actually a child of powercreep, compensation buffed due to changes and then not compensation nerfed when those changes are reverted. Soraka is an insane champion right now. You get to 40% cdr and go ham with your 1.2 second cd W's. After looking at the item's stats I really have to agree with you, the item is pretty busted https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Soraka/Support/ Look at this, 58% w/r as first item on Soraka... that's insane
I tend to build some survivability on Soraka because of how much people like to target her, but she still gets a lot of value from transendence and frozen heart. But I don't think that's near as powerful as that first item Athene's. The other thing that I think it does well is allows her (and other enchanters) to do a skill order that prioritizes their poke skill first, which really helps them in lane. If they couldn't lean on Athene's to do that they would have to balance damage against defensive utility.
Mihalikb (EUW)
: The problem with Conqueror is not the true damage component. But the fact that a million items have been reworked to the point where there's infinite attack speed and every Conq user item has CDR. Or the atrocious reworks that were intentionally designed to allow Champs to insta stack and proc Conq. Most notable examples of this idiocy would be Spear of Shojin and Pantheon. Congratulations! You just successfully made armor meaningless. Then of course there are abominations like Yi and Tryndamere which are a category onto themselves. Tho it's also worth mentioning that Conqueror is a bandaid meant to fix the problem of the fact that Lethality is useless and there's barely any of it anywhere. So you can't really itemize for killing people who stack Armor. This is especially notable considering the abundance or Magic Pen and the total uselessness of Magic Resist. All AP users are basically doing true damage at all times...while benefitting from other useful runes on top of that.
Lethality isn't suppose to counter targets that stack armor, it's suppose to make people who don't stack armor super squishy. If you could get enough lethality to counter someone who has +200 armor then everyone else would be -100 armor and explode on contact. People that stack armor are countered by life steal + damage, unless it's 6 item late game when it's best to add a last whisper item if you feel the need to specifically counter them.
: Depends heavily on the champ, and how many opportunities do you actually get to fully stack it as a squishy enchanter? Like I think on enchanter Lux... it CAN be good, but you also have to rely on your W to hit your ADC Also Yuumi, her ult can stack it so she can get 2 big heals from it, can also get big heals from it with her Q, I'd say it's only really good on Yuumi Otherwise, Sona, Soraka, Lulu... they're all really too squishy and don't do enough damage without getting chunked for it to be worth the bonus heal
Side question: is lux an enchanter? I always considered enchanters to be mages with 2 or more support abilities, and lux only has 1. I considered her a mage just like morgana. Back to the actual subject, I think soraka is honestly one of the best users of Athene's because her q and w are on such a low cooldown. The key to it is that it takes into account pre-mitigation damage, and you can double or triple stack it based on how many people you hit. Sona also stacks it pretty well because her q will hit 2 people in range, and if she can hit multiple people with ult that is a full stack there. But overall I don't think you have to full stack it to be useful if your cooldowns are low enough. But just from my experience I lean heavily into this item on champs that can use it because it greatly increases my defensive abilities. I think it's actually bordering on too efficient.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEt7uTsP,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-18T23:56:48.912+0000) > > There's a significant difference between "this champion has an advantageous matchup against this champion in lane" and "better build your team comp around beating this single champion." You know that though and are using disingenuous arguments to show faux game knowledge. Gotta love being called disingenuous right as you call a Xerath crushing an Annie lane out of irrelevance and snowballing to hell or a Darius setting a Garen 150 cs behind while shoved under turret and taking towers as "advantageous" match up. There's absolutely nothing to be done to prevent the snowball of any of these champs outside jungler camps, and this applies all the same to Jax. If anyone's being an obstuse ass, it's you people pretending like Jax starts the game with triforce levels of laning capacity when he gets abused early by most champs like Renekton, Darius, or Mordekaiser.
The point of the thread is that {{item:3161}} has game distorting synergy with certain champs. Jax just happens to be one of them.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEt7uTsP,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-18T08:16:09.150+0000) > > You stated again that the only way to beat him is champion select. > > Literally "pick these champions, don't pick these champions". > > On top of that Sejuani and Alistar have bad win rates because they pay the pro tax, so you should remove them from your argument. This applies to every champion. You never win against a Xerath as Annie; so, yeah, only way to beat him is at champion select by not picking Annie into a Xerath comp. You never win as Garen or Maokai or Poppy as against a Darius top. So, yeah, champ select. Comp matters, get the fuck over it.
There's a significant difference between "this champion has an advantageous matchup against this champion in lane" and "better build your team comp around beating this single champion." You know that though and are using disingenuous arguments to show faux game knowledge.
: Which one of those are a battle mage exactly? Battle mage usually have low range, multiple ways of cc (or micro cc), low burst damage but on low cd and/or some form of sustain (shield or heal). They are designed to go into a battle and stay alive through their tanky or defensive ability. {{champion:50}} is the closest battle mage that u can find as support. Some battle mage are {{champion:8}} {{champion:127}} ({{champion:13}} not sure about this guy after rework) {{champion:69}} ({{champion:163}} even tho she has no sustain so she fit into other category). Usually bot lane is filled by control mage (the one that have some form of cc that stunlock you or has some ability that manage to create disruption on the enemy team (anivia wall,zyra plant or lux E for example) Morgana and annie are really close to battle mage kit but the first fit more into an poke/enchanter kit and the other into a burst mage. Brand is a dot mage and burst, orianna is a burst mage and sometime enchanter. Zyra is a poke/burst mage , veigar is a burst mage, lux is a poke/burst mage (and sometime enchanter too), syndra is a burst mage, velkoz is a burst/poke mage. Even tho they are really good on tf is not because they are battle mage but because they are control mage (probably annie and velkoz are the only one that doesn't fit into this category)/burst mage with AoE ability. Brand can't straight up 1v1 an assassin or a bruiser despite battle mage who has some form of sustain or sustained dmg but he can kill multiple target at the same time very quickly with someone that can peel/bait from other spell (basically brand use his adc as support engage rather than himself)
People have way too many subcategories of champions for me to track. The only one I tend to use is enchanter, which I categorize as a mage that has 2 support abilities in their kit, and are almost all designed for the support role.
: 1: 100% Agree. Mages shouldn't be stronger than carries on no gold, and Pyke is just degenerate. 2: Assassins should in theory be able to 'oneshot' people who are behind or squishy, but not without those people having an option to react. Dying to a rengar combo isn't remotely fun or fair. He can't miss, he can't be reasonably denied, and he can't be kept off that break point in any meaningful way. Trade offs need to exist for all assassins and right now they just don't. 3: Scaling champions with lane dominance usually have a U curve like Tristana, so they do at least have a point they can be punished. I can't personally speak to gp, but Kai'sa has a bit of that at least. It also seems bad to deny them a laning phase at all or the possibility of building advantage. They aren't actively onehitting people with no counter like your average assassin, so at the very least if they're strong early there's a point you can handle them.
Support mages aren't stronger than carries on no gold. Usually what is happening is the mage is able to use frostfang and proc it on cooldown, which leads to early kills or plates. The reason that this works so well is you only need one of the enemy bot lane to be bad and you can quickly power up. For this to be countered both the opposing adc and support need to be good enough to deny you frostfang procs while still getting good cs numbers. In low elo solo q this isn't a bet I would take, so mages can run rampant. This isn't the pyke situation where you can curbstomp and deny him all early game and then one teamfight later he's the gold leader because he was able to true damage execute everyone on the other team, that's an entirely different situation.
Mogarl (NA)
: Who are the batle mage(s) that are in the support roll? Brand is the only one who comes close to fitting that I can think of, but while he gets bulky he isn't really a battlemage. Support Malzahar is another one that is close, but he's out of meta.
These are the mages I've seen in the support role that can take over a game if they get early kills: {{champion:63}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:143}} Some of them may be more pocket picks, but I've seen them all go nuclear if they get early kills.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEt7uTsP,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-09-17T07:10:59.109+0000) > > So the opposing team has to pick a comp that has the potential to counter jax on the chance someone picks him? > > A champions balance point shouldn't be pick/ban phase. If it is something has gone horribly wrong. No, the fucking team has to pick a comp that has a frontline, and it just so happens that there are plenty of viable frontline tank champs like nunu/sejuani/skarner/blitzcrank/alistair/leona. If you want to run a quinn/vayne/neeko top and a syndra/katarina mid and a lee sin/evelynn/khazix/rengar jg and a soraka/sona supp with your adc, then that's on YOU. Don't go complaining when the Fiora/Jax/Yasuo/Irelia/Riven pick you to pieces, because that's what these divers are supposed to do, thrive on weak frontlines.
You stated again that the only way to beat him is champion select. Literally "pick these champions, don't pick these champions". On top of that Sejuani and Alistar have bad win rates because they pay the pro tax, so you should remove them from your argument.
: No Buff will make Blitz pro viable
Some champions come in and out of pro play depending on meta, items, etc. Most of the champs you listed off have been pro meta now and again, but I can't ever remember blitz being so. I remember some of the reasons that he isn't, such as he telegraphs his hook by facing in the direction that it's going to go, and that gives the opponent time to react. Thresh has a longer windup, but he doesn't telegraph direction, so it's harder to predict. Another of Blitz's problems is that he doesn't really bring a lot other than hooks. Naut's hook isn't even the biggest part of his kit, and thresh has much more utility built in. The last problem is that blitz is best when he can hook from the fog of war, but pro games tend to have a ton of vision. Overall I don't think they're going to try to make him pro viable, so he's going to be on the pro game bench with Teemo.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tychusfindlay918,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEt7uTsP,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-09-16T15:22:16.620+0000) > > He's basically untouchable by anyone who isn't a spellcaster, and cc-lock him is hard in a meta where no one plays tanks (which he would undoubtedly MURDER in lane anyways if someone did). > > He can effectively out-tank actual tanks by a factor of 2-3 against ADCs, even hyperscale-type ADCs, and his ult with a steraks at the very least bars any mage outside of a late game veigar from blowing him up. What? Jungler tanks are more than viable (Skarner, Nunu, Warwick, Volibear, Sejuani are all doing well). That most soloQ prefers to yolo with assassin jg's is another matter. Alistair, Rakan, Thresh, Leona, and Blitzcrank are also all perfectly viable tank supports. Hell, pantheon jg and nocturne also work well enough since they also CC the jax long enough for him to blow up in teamfights. Jax takes forever to come online as a champion unless you feed him early. He's no different than Yi. If you got mongoloid laners who insist on dying to him or overextending and dying to ganks, of course jax and yi will be insufferable. Until then, he's weak and blows up in team fights as he rushes triforce and spear before he even gets a single resistance item, which leaves him like wet toilet paper for the first 20 minutes of a game. I can't understand people who complain about champs when the obvious problem is this game lets your team sink your match at champ select thanks to terrible comps. Enemy team locks a Zed or Katarina in? Your idiot bot lane picked a Sona/enchantress support who will be instantly gibbed the moment the midlane assassin roams bot and starts the assassin snowball when all that was needed was to pick a tank supp like alistair or blitz to completely cuck the assassin. Or your idiot jungler picks a yi/evelynn/khazix into the same Zed/Talon. Or your top lane picks a malphite/poppy into a damn Fiora or Darius, let alone the special kind of moron who picks a ranged top laner into jax aiming to cheese him early, but all that does is deny your team a frontline, so when the game reaches mid to late and your team consists of all squishy ranged champs and assassins and your backline gets dove by the enemy team with a vi/skarner/sejuani and a rakan plus jax, your team acts like they didn't doom the game from champ select. Jax is completely reliant on reaching 3-4 items (and is only survivable after he gets triforce+spear+GA and tabis/mercs) or on the enemy team having no CC whatsoever and a weak frontline. SoloQ happens to constantly feed him with those win conditions either through comp or by throwing early leads to stall the game out for him to come online.
So the opposing team has to pick a comp that has the potential to counter jax on the chance someone picks him? A champions balance point shouldn't be pick/ban phase. If it is something has gone horribly wrong.
: Items I build on Taric: {{item:3001}} {{item:3194}} {{item:3504}} {{item:1416}} {{item:1401}} {{item:3508}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3109}} {{item:3190}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3222}} {{item:3042}} {{item:3056}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3069}} {{item:3401}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3027}} {{item:3040}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3748}} {{item:3091}} {{item:3050}}
I can only build 6 items on my taric. :(
: > [{quoted}](name=Ice Weasel X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NcyYFg5E,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-15T11:55:20.839+0000) > > I think his point was less that Pyke dashed away and more that he so quickly went from 1% to 60%HP after the burst failed to kill him. People have long been frustrated at the relative lack of consequences for Pyke getting caught out. yeah, but with that being said... that's kind of pykes gimmick. His risk reward is skewed. with less than 2k hp pyke can be literally bursted to death and he can't do anything about it. it's not his fault that HP is almost as worthless for everyone else as it is for him. syndra was level 13 and pyke was level 12. if syndra had used her E she would have killed pyke and pyke would have not been able to do anything. If syndra had started with her E then pyke also would have died by the R. So really this shows us that you should always commit your abilities 100% because it caused pyke to retreat and live. it also shows us that timing is needed for stuns to work correctly.
I thought Pykes gimmick is that he can multidunk pentakill with true damage for ridiculous amounts of gold.
: Soraka is amazing and easy to play. Her abilities are safe with good range and her heals are strong. She's definitely not a high skill character. LeBlanc and Shaco are high skill characters.
This is where I disagree with you. You have no dueling ability, you don't have tools to outplay anyone, you don't exert kill pressure, and you get obliterated if you get targeted because you are generally the lowest level champion in the game. The problem is that people only account if a champion takes mechanical skill, but champions that don't have "uh oh" buttons to jump walls or other disengage tools are considered braindead to play. This is the complaint people have with pyke, as long as you can dash away and hit his movement/stealth ability you're forgiven for terrible positioning. The game is much different when you're a support that can't out duel, can't escape, and has to be in the right place all the time or else you're very easy pickings for the hyper mobility champions on the other team.
: I'm not gonna lie, for a moment I completely zoned about on the existence of full tanks
Full tanks have the same sort of issue, but not as bad as support tanks.
: If only that 5 was a 9
I would like to main taric. But I am teh bad.
: Zed is still a high skill champ. This post is BS.
Soraka is a high skill champion. If you play too passively, you're useless. If you play slightly out of position, you die. If you play in perfect position, you probably still die. Half your kit is dumpstered by {{item:3075}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3033}} {{summoner:14}} You have no dueling power. Change my mind
: I feel like mages have it the worst, the majority simply builds the same items and uses the same runes with only minor difference.
Try building a support tank. They don't even have a good first item.
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Bugog

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