: > [{quoted}](name=Cale017,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rprZ5bHL,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-10T17:58:05.455+0000) > > I'm using it an an example to show how the game is shifting around, and that once again Zac is being left behind by being outclassed at the things he's supposed to do. I don't think asing for another 100 range or so on his Q is game breaking, and would just make it a bit more consistent. It's hardly even a ranged ability at this point. It doesn't need to be a ranged ability, he's melee with a huge-ass gap closer. And, Zac isn't being left behind or being 'outclassed' at the things he supposed to do. In fact, every time I see a Zac in my game, I'm like "fuck" because he's so fucking OP. He does tons of damage, has tons of knockups and shit, and he's such a meat soaker with his passive making him bigger based on his current health. Seriously, if you think Zac is underpowered, you're crazy.
I don't think he is on the whole. A range buff on his Q would be almost more of a QoL change than anything else. I LOVE Zac, provided I have a team who understands how to properly take advantage of his bevy of engage and disruption options, but that isn't too easy to find. Most in soloqueue don't work well enough with random people to understand the strengths of his windows of opportunity or how to take advantage of them. Extending out his range just a little bit could help him in smaller skirmishes by keeping fleeing enemies in range just a tad longer, and make it more consistent to hit. If nothing else, like I've stated earlier, his hitbox at least needs to be better defined. I can't count the number of times the animation has shown him punching clear through someone without any damage or slow to be seen going through.
: "Triggers on hit effects twice" How can Riot not predict this shit?
They did. They even predicted who it was going to go the most crazy with. And then they released it anyways. And now, to "fix" it, they're going to nerf the champs who are overusing it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Cale017,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rprZ5bHL,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-10T04:04:35.866+0000) > > It is, which is great, but still has nothing to do with his Q being weak. > > Assuming people actually dive him, and not the other way around, which is what it usually is, with him diving the enemy team and them all melting him. Point is, his passive falls off in usefulness as the game moves out of the laning phase and becomes entirely situational. > > GA, who anyone can buy, and Yorick, who can revive someone albeit temporarily. > > The point I'm getting at here is not that Tahm is a stronger champion than Zac. It's that Zac's Q is admittedly an overall weak ability. Just using Tahm's Q as a comparison. Short range, meh damage unless you're building AP Zac, in which case the short range is even more detrimental as you're likely being burned away just casting it, and a hitbox that seems to forget it has any range at all. So you're saying that, because one ability of Zac's is weaker than Tahm's, Tahm is a better champ and Zac needs a buff? Well, shit. Braum's E is better than Yasuo's W because it can be moved! Better nerf Braum and buff Yasuo because he's weak af. DERP.
I'm using it an an example to show how the game is shifting around, and that once again Zac is being left behind by being outclassed at the things he's supposed to do. I don't think asing for another 100 range or so on his Q is game breaking, and would just make it a bit more consistent. It's hardly even a ranged ability at this point.
: Oh ok. So building crit on Vayne is silly then correct?
Building crit on an ADC is never a bad idea. Consider for a moment that you only proc her true damage every third attack. So then, what about the other two? Wouldn't it be nice if you had enough crit so that the two attacks leading up to her true damage proc were enhanced as well? And then that precious third one could potentially crit as well on top of the true damage. With an Infinity Edge and either Static Shiv or Phantom Dancer, you're looking at a solid chance of critting three times in a row. Where without it you'd only deal three autos and a true damage proc, if all three crit with an Infinity Edge's passive, you're dealing 7.5 auto attacks' worth of damage in the same timeframe. And then your true damage on top of that.
: > [{quoted}](name=Cale017,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rprZ5bHL,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-07-10T03:39:34.056+0000) > > Two knockups. Two knockups is a lot, especially compared to Tahm only having a stun which requires him to actually hit them three times which can be a chore, a slow, which many champs have, and eating them which again, is a chore. > A small percent of AoE max health damage that requires him to be in the very center of a fight, with very limited AoE range. It's also nothing compared to the 1/3d of max health damage that Tahm deals when you spit an enemy out, and can be procced much sooner than Zac could deal three of his %health attacks. But his %maxheath damage is multi-target and on a heckalot lower cooldown than Tahm's. > His passive is all but useless the moment someone purchases Blasting Smite, or if someone has any amount of mass AoE damage to hit all three at once. The most it is going into mid to late game is a momentary distraction in a teamfight unless your team capitalizes on your engage so well that the enemy team is either fleeing or dead by the time your blobs are coming together. And that's nothing to mention the five minute cooldown, unaffected by CDR, much longer than other revive abilities in the game. His passive isn't that useless when people have to actually dive him, get through his CC and base damages, get him and get out alive or just run for the hills while he laughs and reforms. And other revive characters include Zilean, with no CC except a hard-to-land stun and slow, and Aatrox with a knockup and slow and is barely viable.
It is, which is great, but still has nothing to do with his Q being weak. Assuming people actually dive him, and not the other way around, which is what it usually is, with him diving the enemy team and them all melting him. Point is, his passive falls off in usefulness as the game moves out of the laning phase and becomes entirely situational. GA, who anyone can buy, and Yorick, who can revive someone albeit temporarily. The point I'm getting at here is not that Tahm is a stronger champion than Zac. It's that Zac's Q is admittedly an overall weak ability. Just using Tahm's Q as a comparison. Short range, meh damage unless you're building AP Zac, in which case the short range is even more detrimental as you're likely being burned away just casting it, and a hitbox that seems to forget it has any range at all.
: Xin zhao and shyvana were premtivley nerfed because they would be too strong with sated devouerer
Shyvana got nerfed? Hadn't noticed, having as much fun with her as always. And I personally like the changes to her W since I usually build attack speed on her, which helps her out greatly with the extra damage on her autos while W is up.
: No. Zac also has a ton of knockups, AOE %maxhealth damage, and average AP ratios(in comparison, about as much as Tahm, maybe a wee bit less). Plus he has his passive which allows major healing at low health as well as saving himself if an ally is near or if someone tower dives you. Or heck, you just kill them with ign or just both kill eachother at the same time while your passive saves you.
Two knockups. A small percent of AoE max health damage that requires him to be in the very center of a fight, with very limited AoE range. It's also nothing compared to the 1/3d of max health damage that Tahm deals when you spit an enemy out, and can be procced much sooner than Zac could deal three of his %health attacks. His passive is all but useless the moment someone purchases Blasting Smite, or if someone has any amount of mass AoE damage to hit all three at once. The most it is going into mid to late game is a momentary distraction in a teamfight unless your team capitalizes on your engage so well that the enemy team is either fleeing or dead by the time your blobs are coming together. And that's nothing to mention the five minute cooldown, unaffected by CDR, much longer than other revive abilities in the game.
Rioter Comments
Fasmodey (EUW)
: Goodbye Azir, we will miss you
"Context: On these changes, ricklessabandon explained: "trying a few things out right now, and am starting with some of the extremes. should be a few different iterations over the next few days."" You're all so busy freaking out over beta changes that you're forgetting not all of it even goes through to live, and not bothering to read the full details on the changes. No reason to start flaming when the changes hasn't even been made, much less made official.
: Zac or Fiora easier for carrying?
Zac carries by setting up a teamfight to be slaughtered. Fiora carries by slaughtering a teamfight that someone else set up. I'd rather carry by getting my teammates fed than just myself, so Zac.
: RIOT, FIX YOUR FREAKING CHAMPIONS
: Patch 5.13 is the best and at the same time the worst patch in LoL history
: Is this seriously still how the game is after this many years of being succesful?
I wouldn't say first blood should have anything to do with it, but there should definitely be a more consistent means of giving loss prevention. But then again, that's nothing that hasn't been talked about for years.
: Why is Tristana allowed to be so overpowered?
Because she's absolutely worthless unless you have a strong early game. She's a hyper carry but falls off easily.
: I've personally never had any trouble with shooting enemy champions. It's difficult to land, but for any experienced MF player It's pretty easy and very rewarding, especially after her buffs, her Q does more damage if you bounce it and kill a unit.
Instead of just talking about how easy it is to apparently control an ability that appears to function almost at random, how about you break down how you go about landing it reliably?
Dasdi96 (NA)
: So there are 4 diana mains who downvoted this thread.
Nah. Just 15 people who understand that she's perfectly fine as she is.
: she ACTUALLY doesnt, but thanks for letting us know you just got owned by a diana.
I heard the echo of that shot being fired.
: I feel like that on Udyr and Annie and basically carried to plat with those 2
He's not my absolute best champion, that's easily Nocturne, just one of my favorites. And I certainly couldn't carry to plat with either of them lol. But Udyr and Annie are usually in better spots than even Zac most of the time.
Rioter Comments
: [Champion Concept] Tahra, the Prodigal Storm
The concept here is amazingly well done, very unique. However, from a balance perspective I can't help but point out that her passive could very quickly become an issue. Either it would make her worthless as a hybrid damage dealer, unable to use AD at all, make her easy to stop as a straight AP damage dealer, as Thornmail would counter her extremly hard and people would ONLY need to build for MR against her, or be a bit too strong on the other end of the spectrum combined with a Nashor's Tooth and pretty much any amount of attack speed or magic pen. Just some food for thought, some devil's advocate an be wonderful for thinking about these sorts of things.
: > [{quoted}](name=0GameDos0,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=EstGIzfX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-28T23:33:37.548+0000) > > not officer > it should be something opposite to officcer > you know ,like *mafia* ? So you want to give her a skin exactly like her launch skin?.....sounds legit.
I think he's trying to say that she already has a skin themed around cops n' robbers, but that isn't quite what I'm going for. Thematically yes, it might technically fit in. But considering that it was already said before she was released that Jinx was running around impersonating police officers I see no reason NOT to have this. There's a large difference in theme between being part of the majia and dressing up as a police officer.
: Why is teemo not a jungle based champion? "Think about it."
If memory serves, he actually started out as a jungler. But like anyone with a safe laning phase, people took the easier route and shoved him up to the top/mid lane so long that he just got relegated to those positions and was balanced around those instead of around the jungle.
Rioter Comments
Skoonie (NA)
: It's a shame the only supports being played right now are ones with a lot of catch and kill potential. Bard is just plain bad in this meta.
That's because the meta is more decided by early game than anything else right now. Midgame power spikes usually don't come fast enough to stop the advancement of an early game comp, and you have to survive for 30+ minutes for a lategame comp to become effective which, if you can, you're good to go. Assuming that in those 30+ minutes you haven't lost all nine of your turrets, and inhib, and a nexus turret to a team that's been riding an early advantage all match.
: Ok then don't play. Nobody's forcing you to play. Even though you're unranked I see the same pattern in you as I do most of the people who complain about being bronze. You'd rather complain about the system than actually try improve yourself. You'll never get anywhere with your terrible attitude.
You still don't get it. It's not a matter of not wanting to improve myself, as I'm always trying to improve myself. It's a matter of that I have other things to do with my days than dedicate them to increasing rank on this game when it's going to take hundreds of hours just to hope that I can get a badge on my profile to change colors. My attitude isn't that I'm too good for whatever elo the game has me in. My attitude is that I don't care to spend days of my life on ranked play. That isn't a terrible attitude it's a life choice. The only one here who's got a terrible attitude is you dude. I'm pointing out flaws in the system, flaws that you're dodging. Get over yourself dude. Not only are you making assumptions about me as a person, but you aren't even bothering to pay attention to what I'm saying.
: All I see from you is a lot of salt over your rank. Playing league for hundreds of games does give you something. Fun. If you're playing with the sole purpose of increasing your rank then that's the problem to begin with. I said it took me a few hundred games to go from silver to plat. I never said they were all ranked games. When I realized I wasn't good enough to climb out of silver I quit ranked altogether and only played normals for about 6 months. I probably played about 200 normal games, just having fun and practicing. When I came back to ranked I immediately shot to gold because my skill had increased by practicing. And I had fun while I did it. I was (and still am) completely satisfied with my game experience because even though I do try to rank up, that is not my immediate goal when playing league. I just want to have fun. Therefore, I didn't see 200-300 games as a huge deal to play, because I played them over a long period of time and didn't concern myself too much with rank. I wasn't sitting in silver saying "Man, I deserve to be plat, but why will it take me 300 games to get there? No fair!". I just thought to myself: "I want to rank up, and in order to do that I need to practice. However many games it takes, I'm willing to put in the effort." Don't you see that if it takes you 300 games to rank up, it's not because Riot's system is broken, it's because you suck? And yes, I'm fully aware that what I just said implies that I suck, something I openly admit. I suck at league. You'll never improve if you don't acknowledge this. This is the problem with so many players. So many people convince themselves that they deserve a higher rank, and then they stop looking for mistakes in themselves. If a bronze is convinced that they deserve silver then they will always blame every loss on their teammates and Riot (sound familiar) and never realize their own mistakes. On the other hand, if you tell yourself that you suck and blame every loss on yourself you will improve very fast. I know it's hard to do, but I started improving right away when I became extremely critical of myself and not my teammates. For example, let's say your playing ADC and score a double kill on their bot lane. The average player stuck in bronze will think "HAHA I'm so good at ADC. Get rekt noobs look how good I am, I deserve silver!". On the other hand a player (in any elo) with the right mentality will say "Fuck, I burned my flash in that fight even though I could have gotten both kills without using it. Why do I suck so much?!? Fuck fuck fuck me.". One of these players will end up climbing, one will stay where he is until his mentality improves. You're calling 300 games absurd because you don't have the patience to put in the effort, because you want instant results instead of steady improvement. You're like the guy who complains about having to workout at the gym everyday in order to get ripped, and wants to use those "controversial new muscle gain pills" that you see on click-bait adds instead. Yes, it takes hundreds of games to improve. Do you know why it took me 300 games? Because until I had played those 300 games, I wasn't good enough to be in plat. You don't gain elo just by playing lots of games, you gain elo by getting better at the game. And it takes many games to get better at league. League is a complicated game with a huge learning curve. That's why it's so fun, and also so hard to improve. I've said before that it's not Riot's fault that you don't have enough time to rank up. Let me rephrase that: It's not Riot's fault that you don't have enough time to get better at league. Would you like for Riot to just remove every difficult aspect of the game so that everyone can be in challenger and feel good about themselves? To be honest you're coming off like a middle-school PE teacher talking about how everyone has to be a winner. Your rank has nothing to do with how much fun you have in game. It's not like the game becomes more fun to play when your elo is higher. Actually, it could become more fun to play when your skill goes up, if only because you see yourself making cool plays that you couldn't make before. You keep talking about the chance to play with more competent players, but the word competent is completely relative. A player who is competent in bronze would be trash in plat, and a player who is competent in plat would be utter trash in diamond/challenger. So where does competence start? At what elo do you have to be before you can say that the people in it are competent? I hope you can see that there's no right answer to this question, everything is measured comparatively. >You can have the bottom of the list not be a cesspool. Someone has to come in last during a race but they're still much better drivers than the average joe on a road. The issue with bronze isn't that it exists, but that a player who's in it is fighting against their teams more often than against the enemy to progress. Not anyone can enter a car race, you have to have at least some level of skill to drive a race-car. On the other hand, anyone can play ranked league. So it makes sense that the very bottom of the ranked pool will be a cesspool. Bronze 5 is filled with literally the worst players that exist. Don't blame Riot for that, it's not their fault that people who are just that bad choose to play league. It's okay to be terrible at league as long as you're having fun. > If that's true, and I'm deign to admit it is given literally everything I have seen and heard from every other source about this game since first picking it up, do you not see the inherent flaw in that? For someone who's talking about irony, that's a rather large thing for you to miss out on. It is true that I've been gaining more LP than I've been losing per game. Your "sources" on LP gain are probably just the QQ threads on these forums form people complaining that they lose more LP per loss than they gain per win. Nobody who gains more per win complains about it so you never hear about it. It's inevitable that the people who are most frustrated will be the loudest and make it seem like everything is shit. These forums make it seem like everybody hates everything about league, but that's just because most people on the forums in the first place are here to complain. What % of the playerbase do you reckon even comes on these forums. Not much. I gain more LP per win, so do most of my friends. If you gain less LP per win than loss then that's because you've been losing to people who have the same or lower MMR than you. >It's like the credit system. The better your credit, the lower your payments on things. But it's the people with low credit who are naturally going to have a harder time with higher payments. Why should lower leveled players be losing more per match, when there's so much more than what they can control that can, and usually does, go wrong in a match, while higher level players, who are supposed to be much more in control, much more communicative, and have a much deeper understanding of the game, be punished less harshly for losing the game that they're supposed to be better at? Sorry, but in a situation where I'm looking at two groups of people, one who appear to be relatively inexeperienced and one who know what they're doing by heart, and both groups fail? I'm going to be much less harsh on the inexperienced group and expect much more of the experienced ones. From what you're saying, once you get to a certain MMR you no longer need to earn your rank, you just sorta float around it. Win one game, lose three, it's all good in the end. Win one game and lose three in low elos and you're being demoted. How much LP you gain or lose is based on how your MMR stands comparatively to the other players in your league. It is not based on absolute MMR. A player in diamond can lose more LP per loss than they gain per win if they lose too often. And a player in bronze can gain more LP per win as long as they win enough. Also, if I lose 3 win 1 maybe it won't lower my LP by much right away, but if I consistently lose 3 win 1 then you can bet your ass I'll start to see my LP gains per win going smaller and smaller, and my LP losses per loss getting larger and larger.
>All I see from you is a lot of salt over your rank. And I refuse to read past there. Pal if you aren't even paying close enough attention to note that I'm an unranked player, then like I said before there's no point in continuing this conversation. I'm not salty about my rank. I just know there are better things for me to do than try to dedicate myself to gaining ranks in a fundamentally flawed system that gives me nothing back for what amounts to hundreds of hours of my life.
: > And not everyone has the time to invest in hundreds of games. So why should those players be looked down upon for either being stuck at a lower rank, or choosing to play as unranked players instead? I would say most people don't look down on low elo players, those who do you should just ignore. Plus, somebody has to be bronze. In any ranked system there has to be people on top and people on bottom. And it will inevitably be the people on bottom who complain about the system. > How many games though? How many hours of your days, your weeks, your months, your years, were dedicated to trying to move up ranks? Considering that you maintained a steady 54% winrate there was no quantifiable increase in your skill as a player, not that I'm saying you didn't get better just that you weren't increasing enough to make a marked difference on average, it's safe to say that you ended that rise at about the same level as you began it. The only thing that changed was your rank. You didn't even gain very much within the realm of the game, as your skills didn't increase. Game after game, hours and hours and days and weeks of gametime, and there isn't even a way to quantify an increase in skill. Just a superficial rank on your profile. At least if someone is grinding in any other game ever made, they're getting something out of it in the game. Better understanding, higher ranked gear, yadda yadda. But going from where you were to where you ended up, all that you got was a different rank. I took me alot of games, a few hundred. And I definitely have improved alot since I was stuck in silver. When I was in silver I used to think that I should be gold, and that it was my teams that were holding me back. Then I realized that I really deserved to be there and started to just focus on improving my own play instead of worrying about my teammates. I didn't just wake up one day with higher skill and stomp myself into plat. I improved slowly by playing many games, hence why my winrate wasn't ridiculously high. Also, do you not see the **incredible irony** with your post? You start your post by saying that it's not fair that players who don't have time to play are stuck with a low rank. Then you turn around and tell me that my rank doesn't matter and means nothing. If rank doesn't matter then why do people care that they're in low elo? Make up your damn mind. > No matter which way you cut it, currently the system can rob a player of two or three wins' worth of LP for a single loss, meaning that even if on average you're winning more than you're losing, you're still having to win several times in a row just to make up for one loss in most cases. So in order to rank up consistently you have to hit a lucky streak of wins, given that on average most of even your own wins were almost a 50/50 split. And I'd call winning 8-10 games in a row (enough to go from 0-100 LP and then promos) in a row a pretty astounding streak. You only lose more LP than you gain if your MMR is low. I've been gaining 20-30 LP per win this season and only losing 10.
>I would say most people don't look down on low elo players, those who do you should just ignore. I can pretty much assure you that most people do look down on low elo players. At least the ones who care to comment on rank, which is unfortunately quite a large majority of the people I come up against even while playing normal matches. I can't tell you how many times I've been given hell in the champ select lobby for being an unranked jungler then ended up carrying those same players. >Plus, somebody has to be bronze. You can have the bottom of the list not be a cesspool. Someone has to come in last during a race but they're still much better drivers than the average joe on a road. The issue with bronze isn't that it exists, but that a player who's in it is fighting against their teams more often than against the enemy to progress. >I took me alot of games, a few hundred. That is an absolutely obscene amount of games to expect from a playerbase to move up in ranked, and League is literally the only big name game that has this sort of requirement of people. In the time it would take me to play hundreds of games I could go out and play dozens of games with storylines that don't pit me against frustrating matchups. Rank is not an incentive to require hundreds of hours from your players. The amount of effort a player puts into a game should be rewarded with what they get back from it, but someone who's earnestly trying and is just having bad luck with teammates can get stuck in the same place no matter how much time they put in. Or get stuck in it for so long that the idea of playing another hundred matches on the off chance you might move up just isn't worth the gamble. >Then I realized that I really deserved to be there and started to just focus on improving my own play instead of worrying about my teammates. Which would be great if that were the only answer. However, no matter how good one player on a team of five is, there are four other players who can just as easily balance out the skill one player has by hemorrhaging gold and xp to the enemy team. A plat 5 with two items is still gonna lose to a Silver 2 with six. There *is* a point where a single player can no longer carry a match, and more often than not in low elos that point is pretty close to the beginning of that match. This is a team game, and improving your play can only go so far when you've got a random chance of the four other teammates you're about to end up with and whether or not they've been doing the same on their own. >Also, do you not see the incredible irony with your post? You start your post by saying that it's not fair that players who don't have time to play are stuck with a low rank. Then you turn around and tell me that my rank doesn't matter and means nothing. If rank doesn't matter then why do people care that they're in low elo? Make up your damn mind. Make sure you're stopping to read for comprehension before you try to analyze irony. My point isn't that rank doesn't matter, it's that rank is not what determines a person's skill. Someone doesn't hit gold and suddenly upgrade to a gold level of play. A bronze/silver player will be at a gold level of play on a personal basis and have to grind their way up to the actual rank; actually having it doesn't make you any better or worse. Just helps you out during matchmaking. All I said was that with such incremental increases in skill, or such an even winrate, there is no quanitifiable way to judge player progression. And that holds true, as if player progression is partially dependent upon being able to play hundreds upon hundreds of games, only the players who can do so can be judged as having progress. **And that is inherently flawed.** "We don't know whether you're getting better or not unless you play three hundred games. You can't play hundreds of games? How are we supposed to know whether you're a competent player or not?? BACK TO BRONZE WITH YOU, PLEBIAN!!" Rank absolutely matters, but only in terms of matchmaking and who you're getting stuck with. But in terms of what it's actually giving you? Nothing. Having your profile have that gold badge doesn't give you any benefits in game. You're no stronger or faster. And it certainly doesn't help you outside of the game in any way, there are no skills you glean from League that can apply in real world scenarios. Anything that's requiring hundreds of hours from someone should be giving them some sort of benefit. And in a game? That benefit should be in the game. Right now, there is zero benefit in game. The closest you come to a benefit from being in a higher rank is the chance to play with more competent players, which **if everyone had the same chance of there would be no issues with matchmaking.** Get it? This game is demanding hundreds of hours of commitment from its players and is not giving them a benefit that is in proportion to the amount of time its expecting. Either there needs to be more incentive to rank up to outweigh the cost to the player, or there needs to be less cost to the player to balance out the lack of incentive. Right now a low elo player has almost no incentive, and most of the success stories you see are people who, like you, say that they only made it out after hundreds of games (which a pattern amongst the playerbase so repetitive should be a cause for concern up at Rito) or people who say that they got really lucky and landed a solid string of teams. Nobody ever says they carried themselves out of bronze. >You only lose more LP than you gain if your MMR is low. I've been gaining 20-30 LP per win this season and only losing 10. If that's true, and I'm deign to admit it is given literally everything I have seen and heard from every other source about this game since first picking it up, do you not see the inherent flaw in that? For someone who's talking about irony, that's a rather large thing for you to miss out on. "Are you a good player? Congrats! It's now easy for you to stay a good player. Are you a bad player? GOOD LUCK GETTING OUT OF THE HOLE THAT YOU CLEARLY COULD HAVE ONLY DUG FOR YOURSELF." It's like the credit system. The better your credit, the lower your payments on things. But it's the people with low credit who are naturally going to have a harder time with higher payments. Why should lower leveled players be losing more per match, when there's so much more than what they can control that can, and usually does, go wrong in a match, while higher level players, who are supposed to be much more in control, much more communicative, and have a much deeper understanding of the game, be punished less harshly for losing the game that they're supposed to be better at? Sorry, but in a situation where I'm looking at two groups of people, one who appear to be relatively inexeperienced and one who know what they're doing by heart, and both groups fail? I'm going to be much less harsh on the inexperienced group and expect much more of the experienced ones. From what you're saying, once you get to a certain MMR you no longer need to earn your rank, you just sorta float around it. Win one game, lose three, it's all good in the end. Win one game and lose three in low elos and you're being demoted. If you can't see why that's inherently fucked up, this conversation is pretty effectively over.
: Your post is absolutely hilarious. > [{quoted}](name=Cale017,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Bll9zBE,comment-id=000000020000000200000000,timestamp=2015-03-16T23:38:41.415+0000) > > It's supposed to be a grind, but it shouldn't *only* be a grind, which anything lower than gold most definitely seems to be. It's not about a misconception of what rank I, or anyone else, feels they deserve. It doesn't matter how much your skill level may put you at if the other four members of the teams you end up on for your provisionals are all feeding and hemmhoraging gold and xp to the enemy team. You can be as good with your mechanics as you want, but if the enemy team has three levels and two full items on you, you aren't gonna win the match on your own. You're going to lose, and you're going to do it with your feeding teammates. Yes, even if you're really good you can drop games in low elo due to terrible teamates. But the average is the only thing that matters over the course of many games. Just because it's possible to lose while doing well doesn't mean that ranked system is unfair. Even challenger players will drop games in low elo due to feeding teammates. But those are just single games. Single games don't say much about your skill level or rank, it takes many games to show that. > Pro players are also getting paid to do nothing but play League. It's their literal job. I don't complain about checking people out and helping old ladies to their car with their groceries either, because it's my job and it's what I get paid to do. They aren't having to deal with finding time to grind for rank, because all of their time is dedicated to it. And, funny thing, the pros actually *did* complain about having to grind for rank. Remember season 4, when there was a large chunk of pros who were complaining about being put in plat and diamond after their provisionals? They only complained because the system capped their rank at plat. They were mad that they still had challenger MMR but got put in plat. It was kinda dumb that Riot decided that you couldn't be placed in diamond even if you were challenger last season. It resulted in many unfair games because pros were shit stomping their way through plat. Was pointless for the pro players because it was clear that they were wayy better than the plat players, and lots of plat players had to get dumpstered for no reason. > Yeah. > > Good job, you managed to go from silver to plat. You had a 54% winrate, but if it was that even it also means two things: one, that your team had much more of an impact on the outcome of each individual game than you're admitting, as if it was all your skill that decided matches then you would have had a higher winrate as a plat player, and that you had to do hundreds and hundreds of games to get to that point. I never said it was all my skill. I had my share of good and bad teams. All I'm saying is that I played slightly better than the people in my games **on average**, and I ranked up significantly. You yourself said, *"So against all odds they have to perform at an astounding level all the time just to move up marginally in a consistent manner"*. And I'm living proof that that isn't true. I maintained a winrate slightly above 50% by performing slightly better than the enemy team, and I moved up after many games. Clearly you don't have to be a super-star to rank up, you just have to be a little bit better. > Some people don't have that sort of time. It's not about whining and bitching and not being able to man up. It's about looking at possibly having to play, let's just say for sake of ease, 300 matches to get to a consistent rank where you can bet on being placed with other good players as well. 300 matches for an average of 45 minutes a match, not counting for the waiting time for every match, the ban and pick phases, and loading into the matches which actually makes it closer to almost an hour, means 13500 minutes or 225 hours. That's 9 3/8ths days of time right clicking your way across the Rift. > > Perhaps it's because you're still a kid, between the hodgepodge team shoutout and anime reference composing your summoner name, but you're really not in any place to tell someone to "man up" as "manning up" has absolutely nothing to do with spending 225 hours playing a video game when there are also college classes, job shifts, rent, utilities, food, and possibly even family, to also concern yourself with. All of which make someone much more of a man than being a platinum ranked player in League of Legends. My summoner name doesn't really have anything to do with this conversation. That's alot of assumptions you're making about me just based off the fact that I'm a fan of a league team and enjoy watching one piece. And when I said "man up" I just meant that you need to put your head down, focus, and work on getting better rather than complaining. You definitely know that's what I meant, but I guess you decided to take it literally just so you could get on your "high horse" and give me some lecture about life. Oh, and you not having enough time to grind out games isn't Riot's fault. They just make the game. If your circumstances don't allow you to spend very much time playing it (which is perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with having good priorities) then there's no point in complaining to Riot that you don't have enough time to rank up. Just play normals then. > Get over yourself. A high rank is no reason for a high horse. I'm not on a "high horse" because of a high rank (I don't even consider myself high ranked, btw. IMO the only people who have a right to brag about their rank is master and challenger players). I only brought my rank into this in order to directly refute a false statement you made. *"So against all odds they have to perform at an astounding level all the time just to move up marginally in a consistent manner"*. Obviously not. I managed to rank up, so do many other people, and I'm not even close to being a really good player.
>Single games don't say much about your skill level or rank, it takes many games to show that. And not everyone has the time to invest in hundreds of games. So why should those players be looked down upon for either being stuck at a lower rank, or choosing to play as unranked players instead? >They only complained because the system capped their rank at plat. They still complained, there was still an issue about rank placements among pros, and that was the point you tried to bring up to refute. >I maintained a winrate slightly above 50% by performing slightly better than the enemy team, and I moved up after many games. How many games though? How many hours of your days, your weeks, your months, your years, were dedicated to trying to move up ranks? Considering that you maintained a steady 54% winrate there was no quantifiable increase in your skill as a player, not that I'm saying you didn't get better just that you weren't increasing enough to make a marked difference on average, it's safe to say that you ended that rise at about the same level as you began it. The only thing that changed was your rank. You didn't even gain very much within the realm of the game, as your skills didn't increase. Game after game, hours and hours and days and weeks of gametime, and there isn't even a way to quantify an increase in skill. Just a superficial rank on your profile. At least if someone is grinding in any other game ever made, they're getting something out of it in the game. Better understanding, higher ranked gear, yadda yadda. But going from where you were to where you ended up, all that you got was a different rank. >My summoner name doesn't really have anything to do with this conversation. No, but I just find it hard to imagine Luffy sitting at a desk playing League. > And when I said "man up" I just meant that you need to put your head down, focus, and work on getting better rather than complaining. Then you might want to rethink your use of the phrase "man up." None of those things have anything to do with the idea of manning up. Not to sound like a tumblrista here, but that's just a biiiit on the sketchy side of a discussion about gender roles. Doesn't contribute to what you're saying much and just sounds more derogatory than anything. > They just make the game. Which means that if they've made it harder for players to show what they can do in a way that rewards them without requiring them to dedicate weeks of their lives in gametime to playing the game, then yes it is their fault that players don't have enough time to rank up. I love this game, but between their crappy matchmaking and their touchy servers I never even feel like it's safe to play, and when I do try I don't bother to do solo queue anymore because I'm stuck in a pit with Lee Sins who don't know they don't have to finish *every* Q and ADCs who still think wards are just for supports. >"*So against all odds they have to perform at an astounding level all the time just to move up marginally in a consistent manner*". Obviously not. I managed to rank up, so do many other people, and I'm not even close to being a really good player. No matter which way you cut it, currently the system can rob a player of two or three wins' worth of LP for a single loss, meaning that even if on average you're winning more than you're losing, you're still having to win several times in a row just to make up for one loss in most cases. So in order to rank up consistently you have to hit a lucky streak of wins, given that on average most of even your own wins were almost a 50/50 split. And I'd call winning 8-10 games in a row (enough to go from 0-100 LP and then promos) in a row a pretty astounding streak.
Raptamei (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Cale017,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Bll9zBE,comment-id=00000003000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-14T04:06:07.815+0000) > > You can. Kills and assists help your team win, deaths do the opposite. So the amount of kills and assists versus the amount of deaths you have gives you more or less LP on a win, and reduces or increases the amount of LP lost on a loss. > > Whether or not someone was direclty helping while they're fed, the fact that they're consistently killing enemies is still helping the game even if it's not the kind of help that is necessary at any given point in time, and that should be reflected. You just gave the support a very good reason to steal every kill. Even if you weigh K and A equally to prevent kill stealing, the support is still going to try and steal every kill because it gives him more gold which he can spend on a ruby crystal so he dies less.
If it hasn't been made clear enough yet, let me try again. This is not, by far, the only solution that should be implemented. If at all, it should be done along with other ones. This is meant as no more than a starting point for possible changes.
: I LOVE Diana.. I like her look.. I like the way shes played.. pretty much everything about her.. EXCEPT.. SHE SUCKS. As far as jungling goes, she has very high survivability, I can clear Blue, Gromp, Wolves, Raptors, and Red before my 1st back. And her clear time is pretty quick due to all her attacks being AOE/Multi target.. But unless you have a lead.. The only one youre gonna be 1v1'ing is the sup. I was really disappointed when I finally bought her.. Cause you see champs like Katerina, Akali.. She fits right in with them. I know she is far less squishy but if youre not doing any real damage then why does that matter? ALOT of ppl are going to argue that I just have to "learn how to play her noob" But you put 2 pros 1v1 she'll get stomped. I REALLY wish they would buff her a bit.. Not even that much, just a little bit more damage at the least.. Cause shes like the coolest champ but come time for it to really matter, shes garbage.
You're comparing Katarina and Akali as midlaners versus Diana as a jungler here. They might all be AP assassins but handling Diana in the jungle is very different from handling Katarina or Akali in the jungle. That's not really a fair comparison to make. As for her power, honestly I tested her out plenty not long after posting this and almost never felt like I was too weak. Even if I wasn't getting fed, I was still holding even in terms of damage with anyone on the enemy team and able to come in with just enough damage and survivability to influence teamfights and walk out of it alive. I haven't played her much recently, but with the recent nerfs to the jungle camps I've been meaning to as she'll now be clearing much much healthier.
: "Why should I have to work for what I want?!?" Ranking up is a grind. It's supposed to be that way. If you don't have enough time to play alot of ranked games that's not Riot's fault. So many people (including you, apparently) share the misconception that because they think they deserve to be in a certain rank, they should have to put in no work to get there. That if their skill level is gold, then they should be immediately placed in gold and never have to play a game to get there. Yeah sorry, that's not how it works. If you want to rank up, be prepared to put in hours upon hours of play. Because that's what it takes. Instead of whining about it you can just man up and actually put in some effort. When's the last time you heard a pro player say "man...why does it take me 100 games to get this account to challenger? I'm clearly at challenger skill level, I shouldn't have to make that grind!" Oh, that's right, pro players never talk like that. Because they actually understand that ranking up takes work, no matter how good you are. And if you can't put in the grind, don't play ranked. I went from silver to plat with something like a 54% winrate. I didn't have to perform "at an astounding level all the time against all odds." I just performed slightly better than the other players, on average. And here I am, two full divisions higher than I was about a year ago. Sure it took me a couple hundred ranked games, but you have to play alot to get better.
It's supposed to be a grind, but it shouldn't *only* be a grind, which anything lower than gold most definitely seems to be. It's not about a misconception of what rank I, or anyone else, feels they deserve. It doesn't matter how much your skill level may put you at if the other four members of the teams you end up on for your provisionals are all feeding and hemmhoraging gold and xp to the enemy team. You can be as good with your mechanics as you want, but if the enemy team has three levels and two full items on you, you aren't gonna win the match on your own. You're going to lose, and you're going to do it with your feeding teammates. Pro players are also getting paid to do nothing but play League. It's their literal job. I don't complain about checking people out and helping old ladies to their car with their groceries either, because it's my job and it's what I get paid to do. They aren't having to deal with finding time to grind for rank, because all of their time is dedicated to it. And, funny thing, the pros actually *did* complain about having to grind for rank. Remember season 4, when there was a large chunk of pros who were complaining about being put in plat and diamond after their provisionals? Yeah. Good job, you managed to go from silver to plat. You had a 54% winrate, but if it was that even it also means two things: one, that your team had much more of an impact on the outcome of each individual game than you're admitting, as if it was all your skill that decided matches then you would have had a higher winrate as a plat player, and that you had to do hundreds and hundreds of games to get to that point. Some people don't have that sort of time. It's not about whining and bitching and not being able to man up. It's about looking at possibly having to play, let's just say for sake of ease, 300 matches to get to a consistent rank where you can bet on being placed with other good players as well. 300 matches for an average of 45 minutes a match, not counting for the waiting time for every match, the ban and pick phases, and loading into the matches which actually makes it closer to almost an hour, means 13500 minutes or 225 hours. That's 9 3/8ths days of time right clicking your way across the Rift. Perhaps it's because you're still a kid, between the hodgepodge team shoutout and anime reference composing your summoner name, but you're really not in any place to tell someone to "man up" as "manning up" has absolutely nothing to do with spending 225 hours playing a video game when there are also college classes, job shifts, rent, utilities, food, and possibly even family, to also concern yourself with. All of which make someone much more of a man than being a platinum ranked player in League of Legends. Get over yourself. A high rank is no reason for a high horse.
: Read my post above this. KDA is not the only answer.
And I didn't say it was. But it's certainly part of it. As much as people like to say that kills don't matter in League, they still do. The longer you stay alive, the longer you're denying that gold and xp to enemies, and the more kills you have the more you're reaping it from them, and giving your team opportunities to play offensively to take objectives. It certainly isn't the only factor, but acting like it isn't a factor at all is just plain ignorant.
: > The current system doesnt give a player stuck in Silver the chance to be a low Platinum or high gold player based on solid consistent performances. It forces them to become so good to the point they have to stomp every game until they cannot stomp to that extent any longer. Keep in mind team dynamics such as disconnects, bad communication, feeding and ragers exist. **So against all odds they have to perform at an astounding level all the time just to move up marginally in a consistent manner. Against all odds? Lmao. All you need is a 51% winrate to climb. I was stuck in silver 4 during season 3. I just kept playing over and over, hundreds of games. I got better and started to win more than I lost. Now I'm plat. It's not hard, it just takes time.
A 51% winrate and the time to grind hundreds of games, which not everyone has. Why should someone who's equally skilled but doesn't have the freetime of another player be stuck in a lower rank because they can't grind all those matches out?
: Remove Sunfire from tank jungler recommended items
Or OR You could not act like a level 5 scrub and remember that unique passives don't stack. What if an Amumu or an Elise want to build Magus enchant first and a Sunfire Cape afterwards? Remember, the recommended items are not necessarily the recommended build path, they're just the items that have synergy with the champion you're playing.
Crett (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Cale017,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Rr6t6Wqv,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-14T04:04:06.696+0000) > > Endlessly scaling tank item? > > Looks like I'm changing my main role from fighter to tank. i just want my unkillable sion monster
: I think you have part of the answer. You need a way to measure "helping the team win". That would be amazing to see.
You can. Kills and assists help your team win, deaths do the opposite. So the amount of kills and assists versus the amount of deaths you have gives you more or less LP on a win, and reduces or increases the amount of LP lost on a loss. Whether or not someone was direclty helping while they're fed, the fact that they're consistently killing enemies is still helping the game even if it's not the kind of help that is necessary at any given point in time, and that should be reflected.
: YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! *Swings my Wit's Ends around like a madman*
Crett (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Cale017,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Rr6t6Wqv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-13T09:48:52.955+0000) > > Anyone who uses it would be the biggest offender. The on hit jungle items don't generally balance well when they're given just a bit too much power, as the small changes they make add up to a large result. Xin, Noc, Udyr, Aatrox, Volibear, hell even Shyvana. Anyone who could build Devourer would benefit from the crit, and with a chance of those crits going off several times in a second you'd be dealing with an infinitely scaling crit damage item. Come end game, a fed enough jungler could be walking around with a Devourer's worth more than their ADC's Infinity Edge. haha. yeah. how broken would it be if cinderhulk also gained 1 armor and mr whenever you killed a large monster now THAT would be a slap in the ADC's face
Endlessly scaling tank item? Looks like I'm changing my main role from fighter to tank.
Crett (NA)
: What if Devourer's on-hit damage could crit
Anyone who uses it would be the biggest offender. The on hit jungle items don't generally balance well when they're given just a bit too much power, as the small changes they make add up to a large result. Xin, Noc, Udyr, Aatrox, Volibear, hell even Shyvana. Anyone who could build Devourer would benefit from the crit, and with a chance of those crits going off several times in a second you'd be dealing with an infinitely scaling crit damage item. Come end game, a fed enough jungler could be walking around with a Devourer's worth more than their ADC's Infinity Edge.
Uiru (NA)
: I wouldn't mind seeing the mastery system implemented into ranked. You need to be at least like B level with sixteen champs. (More, if they ever man up and increase the bans. Eight should have been implemented a year ago.) "but it would make the barrier of entry for ranked harder" YES IT WOULD ~Uiru
I suggest the same thing and get wildly downvoted. Isn't ranked supposed to be a competitive environment? People should be playing champs that they can play competitively, i.e. that they know and aren't still learning or experimenting with. Get that AP on hit tank Nocturne crap outta my jungle bruh
Goldglim (EUW)
: Shadow Isles Shyvana - Fan Skin
: Community actually ran the numbers on that. I believe it turned out that most champions are either underpowered at release, or champion has a nasty learning curve that players are not used to, and ended up only being overpowered in the hands of very skilled players.
: Ahri CDs at max rank with Morellos and blue buff, 35% with mastery... 4.55, 3.25, 7.8, 52 Cassio CDs at max rank, and full passive stacks and blue buff 40% with mastery 2.4, 6, .5, 60 Cassio will cast more spells by simply landing her Q and chaining her Es than Ahri will using her entire kit, more casts result in more procs. Also Ahri will depend more on her R for kiting and repositioning where as Cassio needs to depend on her move speed and the move speed bonus on her Q, which Luden's move speed bonus further helps. Ahri by comparison won't need the move speed buff near as much, although I won't say she won't enjoy it. In the end Cassio will proc the item far more than Ahri could dream during a team fight and her massive amount of AP in the late game, around 1300, will result in the proc doing a good bit more damage than with Ahri. It's common to see Ahri stop at around 900 AP, resulting in a 135 bonus to the item or 235 bonus damage. Cassio by comparison hits around 1300 resulting in a buff of 195 for a total of 295 damage proc from the item and she will proc it many more times than Ahri. While Ahri will enjoy it for the extra bit of damage it gives her burst Cassio will be putting out much more AoE pressure during a team fight as she spams her spells killing targets.
Which is assuming that you have someone within range to be casting spells that much at all times. Between fights she's gonna be no more capable of stacking than Ahri, but given Ahri's insane movement once she gets going that'll more than make up for it. Hell, just casting her ult three times is liable to give you two full stacks between the movement and individual spell casts alone. Again, I'm not saying that Cass won't be able to use it. But saying that she's going to get so much more use out of it than an Ahri, who can simultaneously cast from afar while moving, given that Cass isn't quite as effective in teamfights comparatively with her main damage ability being on a bit of a short range and requiring a target to click on, I'm gonna have to give the advantage here to Ahri. Sorry, but Cass's AoE pressure is already there as it is. With how much damage she already does if you just stand there and let her go off on you, this little proc is only going to be adding a few drops to the pond whereas Ahri's gaining some much needed burst while also accenting her refocused role as a kiting mage. Like, that's exactly what Riot made her to be now. A kite mage. And this is an item for mages who kite well, which Ahri does a heck of a lot better than Cass. I'm not saying you're entirely wrong man, just that I don't see Cass getting as much benefit in the long run. Sure if someone sits there and takes it up the pooper from her she'll get procs off quicker, but if someone is taking that many of Cass' spells they're probably already dead anyways while Ahri'll just lead them on a merry little chase peppering in spell procs as she goes with perhaps a bit less frequency but a lot more effect.
: This is spot on. Played a game with a Zed recently. He ended the game 8-0-1 or something. We lost. He didn't do anything to help us win the game. He would wait for a sure kill, swoop in and steal it. Or he would wait until the team fight was over, grab one kill, then run away and farm our raptors. Guy was raging about the rest of the team being baddies, but wouldn't help contest dragons, or take towers, or push lanes. No ty on this being in every game if Riot were to change up the ranking system.
Then you lessen the amount of LP lost when a champion does well instead of just giving them positive LP for doing well in general. If someone does well but they still don't help the team with what they gain over the course of a match, they deserve to lose LP for not doing their part of the team's work. However, this would also allow players who were legitimately trying to help in a match, even if it was a losing one, to buffer themselves against the mass loss of LP considering that one bad match can pretty effectively negate two or even three wins in some cases.
Ahtiz (NA)
: THIS IS AN HONEST, HEARTFELT COMPLAINT ABOUT THE RANKING SYSTEM
I completely avoid ranked unless I'm playing in the team I have with my roommates because of just these issues. I learned to play alongside players of all rank, from bronze to diamond, and in a few cases I've been able to completely outdo a lot of my higher ranked friends. In one instance my ex's plat ranked stepdad. Hehehehehehhhehehehehh. But this is pretty much exactly what I've been saying for *months* now. After dealing with a full AP Cho'Gath feeding my top lane, ulting objectives and allchatting about me missing smite, I decided to not even worry about ranked play because I knew that between work and trying to get back into school I just plain wasn't going to play enough games to even have a glimmer of a hope of getting out of whatever low elo I got placed in, especially with how bass ackwards the placements have been the last two seasons. I'm perfectly happy playing draft pick normals to simulate that competitive environment without having to deal with the unnecessary stress of ranked play. Until Riot balances team effort alongside individual performance, there's no reason to play ranked, because at the end of the day it's coming down to a 50/50 chance of whether you're going to win or lose LP, skewed one way or the other based on the RNGods giving you teammates that will either help or hinder your performance, and your team's efforts. Ranked play is broken, plain and simple. It should reward player progression more than it does player commitment, and right now someone who just grinds enough can get enough heads in a row on those coin tosses to claw their way out of low elos when they might not otherwise deserve to. Lookin' at you, jungle Yi mains.
darkdill (NA)
: @Noobs: Stop bitching about Bard. It's his first fucking day.
Champions are always overpowered right at release. I actually have a theory about it: Riot gives us a champion at the very peak of what they can do, lets summoners rampage about freely, really leave an impact, before they gut that champion and leave everyone feeling woefully unfulfilled, playing it again and again hoping to whatever gods may exist that they can have just one game as good as launch day was. Fast forwards two years and Zac might only just be becoming viable again.
: > [{quoted}](name=Cale017,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=okYFY6zI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-12T23:28:09.342+0000) > > {{champion:103}} Ahri will enjoy the item for the extra added burst it gives, and the 120 AP as well, but Cassio is going to love literally everything about this item. The AP, the movement speed and her ability to proc the thing damn near every 3 seconds.
As though Ahri won't be proccing just as much? She's more mobile than Cassio, and what she lacks in outright spam, not that you should have her Q on a longer cooldown than maybe 6 seconds during your late game, she makes up for in mobility with her ult. In order for Cass to proc it more often than Ahri she's going to have to be wasting mana *constantly* casting spells even when there's no enemies around. Ahri's gonna love it just as much, I'm betting more, than Cassio, although I'm not going to deny that Cass is gonna enjoy it too.
: Something I need confirmation on about Bard.
Considering that everyone else's passives don't change on ARAM? Most likely. Good luck getting all the chimes that are gonna spawn next to the enemy turrets, though.
: *Looks at Luden's Echo*
{{champion:103}}
: Sorry buddy, silver is not really a competitive environment
So let's make it harder for players who are trying to get out of it to do so by continually forcing them to deal with the sort of... er, "skills" one finds at lower elos? This wouldn't affect high level players any, as they're already great at what they do. And it would allow the skilled among lower levels to rise appropriately by not being held back by awful teammates as much.
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Cale017

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