Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 14
AP Shaco has been pushed into the same role as AD Shaco, an Onhit Assassin. Most of the strengths in boxes has been limited due to Red trinket, Control wards, and Duskblade. Could there be any chance of a buff to AP Shaco? Without nerfing Red trinkets I think the easiest route would to allow items to activate on shaco's boxes. Liandries, Ludens even Spellthiefs would allow some extra damage to be activated through boxes. This wouldn't be a buff to AD Shaco and would allow AP Shaco players to play something that isn't just a knock off version of the usual playstyle. -Pink Ward
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 5
Just waking up, so sorry for the late response. I really appreciate putting in the time to write this up. I still feel that adaptive abilities could help fix a lot of the current problems with champions who are building AP for their hybrid scaling abilities, when they're ad champions, without fully removing it. I used Tryndamere as an example 10months ago, and it's funny because of the recent resurgence of Trynd players with Mage Tryndamere might not have been as op as it was if adaptive abilities were in the game for champs with hybrid scaling abilities. Tryndamere players were doing it because his E had a low cooldown and had a high AP ratio, but it did Physical damage. They would build Lichbane, Guinsoos and Nashors, all allowing for him to do more Magic damage so he would have a high amount of hybrid damage, making it hard to itemize against him. If adaptive abilities were in the game, his E spam would have been less of an issue, because you could build Magic resistance and it would reduce a high amount of his damage. He would be locked into a magic damage E because of him building so many AP items. The problem you are stating is if you see a champion going a certain build path, they have a chance to hard swap to the opposite damage to trick their opponents, making them waste their time and gold they put into purchasing items. But after the first item a champion build, you usually will understand if he is going AP or AD. The exception here would be if the, for example, AP Tryndamere player was building attackspeed items till he was able to fully buy an item, so your opponent doesn't know what you're building. This could be fixed with an internal timer that would cause you to have to be stating whether you're building for AP adaptability or AD adaptability. 5 minutes into the game, you don't have an AP item, amplifying tome, as Tryndamere? Your E will be doing physical damage. With the reduction of champions in the game that have hybrid scaling abilities, I feel we will lose all of them soon because of all the problems that eventually arise as items are buffed/nerfed/introduced. Not all champions need to be under the effect of adaptive abilities, just those who currently have hybrid scalings. I'm still advocating adaptive abilities because they will help reduce the problems that show up. They will also allow for champions to branch out into more fun and interesting builds. I hope to somehow make these builds work without getting to the easier route out and just deleting all hybrid scaling abilities. Thanks again for writing up this post, much appreciated.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 17
Currently AP Shaco isn't in the best of places. One of the biggest reasons for this is Red trinket hard countering his entire kit, outside of E. It "reveals" Q, reveals and activates his boxes, boxes being the biggest strength to his kit. Shaco is the only champion with traps that red trinket and control wards act in this manner, Jhin traps, Nidalee traps and Teemo shrooms are still activate able when revealed by these two items. Shaco boxes are activated by these items, losing it's stealth, fear and dying after 10 seconds. This being said, I don't know if this is intended or not. I don't know if I should report it as a bug, or post on the gameplay boards about it, due to it being in the game for the past year. Any input?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 10
Currently AP Shaco isn't in the best of places. One of the biggest reasons for this is Red trinket hard countering his entire kit, outside of E. It "reveals" Q, reveals and activates his boxes, boxes being the biggest strength to his kit. Shaco is the only champion with traps that red trinket and control wards act in this manner, Jhin traps, Nidalee traps and Teemo shrooms are still activate able when revealed by these two items. Shaco boxes are activated by these items, losing it's stealth, fear and dying after 10 seconds. This being said, I don't know if this is intended or not. I don't know if I should report it as a bug, or post on the gameplay boards about it, due to it being in the game for the past year. Any input?
: League gameplay changes over the next few months
Currently AP Shaco isn't in the best of places. One of the biggest reasons for this is Red trinket hard countering his entire kit, outside of E. It "reveals" Q, reveals and activates his boxes, boxes being the biggest strength to his kit. Shaco is the only champion with traps that red trinket and control wards act in this manner, Jhin traps and Teemo shrooms are still activate able when revealed by these two items. Shaco boxes are activated by these items, losing it's stealth, fear and dying after 10 seconds. This being said, I don't know if this is intended or not. I don't know if I should report it as a bug, or post on the gameplay boards about it, due to it being in the game for the past year. Any input?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 29
Any info/opinions yet on Adaptive abilities?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 22
Any info/opinions yet on Adaptive abilities?
Meddler (NA)
: I'll get some notes on why we haven't been using adaptive effects in game into a future post. Apologies for the lack of a detailed response right now, one of those days.
I appreciate the post. Thank you, looking forward to all your thoughts.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 28
I tweeted at you about it, but I was wondering about thoughts on giving champions Adaptive abilities? Those few champions out there who have scalings for both AD and AP who, sometimes, might rather deal magic damage vs physical damage. My champ, Shaco, has a history of being played as both AD and AP. I feel having adapativeness on either his Passive or E, or both, could help when wanting to play him as AP. It wouldn't touch AD shaco, even though I know nerfs will probably be coming out for him, but would touch up AP Shaco enough, to not fully need hard buffs to it.
Kaìju (NA)
: While I get what you're saying, my understanding is that Riot is trying to remove hybrid builds and or play styles from the game, since they make it really hard to itemize against. If that's how they're planning to move forward, what should happen to Shaco? I'm just wondering since I don't play him, but my understanding is that at some point he's gonna lose one side of his play style.
One of my "suggestions" is to be rid of AP because majority of people play AD and just balance around it. I think it's clear Riot wants to keep both playstyles in the game, as they've committed a lot of resources already to working to keep both. In the assassin update they could have just completely deleted his AP ratios, but they didn't. Hybrid builds aren't really something I'm suggesting, but Adaptive Abilities. These abilities will be magic damage OR physical damage dependent on what you choose to build, AD or AP.
: Gonna talk about Shaco from the perspective of playing *against* him since that is also important. At no point do I think AP or AD Shaco are OP or UP, but I may refer to abilities as strong or weak, but particularly - frustrating. I like Shaco's niche but I don't like the idea of just adding more damage to Shaco. The idea that he can play all these mind games and make you play the game to his tune but also straight up duel you is extremely unsettling. His Q is the strongest thing about him and it's frustrating to deal with. Shaco in general can not be engaged on at any time. It is neither safe or wise to do so. He'll make you dance to his tune. And not just because of his Q, but his entire kit. I think adding adaptive abilities is cute but even harder to balance since this means he's viable with any item. If anything for hybrid champs like this I'd like to see AP used to increase utility and AD used to increase damage. Since it means different playstyles. Playstyles you can work around once you see what they're building. If anything though, I see adaptive abilities as being much harder to balance than just going all-in on one damage type. If you want to buff his damage then he needs to be easier to be engaged upon. Sorry, but that's the truth of it.
I understand the outside looking in point. But you have to understand his weakness greatly over shadow his strengths. He's a squishy assassin who has 1 way in, no way out. He has 1 round of damage that if he doesn't get a kill with, a teamfight becomes a 4v5. I can understand the outplay and mind game mechanic is a considerable part of his kit, but that is completely unreliable. You have to fully commit to a play of trying to mind game someone for something to work. It's more of a hindrance than a strength sometimes. AP Shaco you're constantly playing with a mentality that the enemy will always be stronger than you. With that mentality I turn it around and make the opponent think that I'm always stronger than them, it's the game of chicken. I only lose when my opponent figures out that it will hurt a lot more for me when we slam into each other than for them. The underlying problem is that there are so many easy ways to figure out Shaco if a player just put a few seconds into thinking. There are bugs that give away which is the real Shaco and which is the fake, currently the fake has a smite icon instead of an electrocute icon. There are 3 free items, and 1 hugely popular item that completely negate Shaco's boxes, while the 3 free items also hinder his stealth mechanic. If someone has the ability to run you down, you'll never get away from an upgraded Red Trinket. There are many parts to Shaco that are easily countered with just a little bit of brain power. That lack of brain power people have, is the reason why I can make AP Shaco work right now. I do agree that Shaco doesn't need free damage, which is why I made a 5 paragraph post explaining adaptive abilities a month ago. This post was my take on AP Shaco currently and not really an explanation of Shaco in general. Both parts are completely different, which is why I made my conclusion about Riot dancing around playstyles. It feels they will never get a set playstyle they like without making another playstyle on the champion completely busted or both completely useless. Early this season they were fighting around buffs and nerfs because one was strong in the meta, which nerfed the other playstyle.
Rioter Comments
: While I agree with diversity being good, I really don't like the idea in presented in the post specifically (that is adaptive damage on abilities). OP mentions this as the biggest con, but I think it can't be stressed enough how unfair this is for champions that build resistances. Armor is already pretty much useless on anyone who doesn't stack 4 items on it, making it even more useless is a big no-no IMO.
> [{quoted}](name=Loli Sensei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8bA97WY,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-12-01T16:46:48.680+0000) > > While I agree with diversity being good, I really don't like the idea in presented in the post specifically (that is adaptive damage on abilities). > > OP mentions this as the biggest con, but I think it can't be stressed enough how unfair this is for champions that build resistances. > > Armor is already pretty much useless on anyone who doesn't stack 4 items on it, making it even more useless is a big no-no IMO. Does the enemy team not always have an ADC as it is crucial to the current meta?
Starilae (NA)
: With the way Riot destroyed rework Evelynn, I highly doubt a new Shaco will keep his hybrid scaling the way it used to be. I talked to Rioters for months and months and months about keeping Evelynn a hybrid. The rework comes around and what do ya fucking know, she is all ap and forced to build like a mage, forever. Her Kit doesn't allow the use of ad items even if she had adaptive ratios. They went a step further and gave her a cookie cutter build. From one of the most diverse champions (if not the most diverse) to 100% predictable in build and gank patterns. Again, I asked about it for MONTHS before the rework, like 6 months almost every day. I used pretty much the same arguments you use for adaptive damage and they completely ignored me and all the Eve mains on the Eve subreddit. They made it clear they were going to do exactly what they wanted and didn't care at all about how we felt or what we had to say. A reoccurring reason for the removal of Eve's hybrid ratios was _thematic fantasy_ . Their logic goes like this... "we feel magic damage better suits Eve's thematic fantasy so we are keeping her 100% ap". Seriously, THEMATIC FANTASY. Now ask yourself, what is Shaco's thematic killing frenzy. Take that answer and forget about it because i guarantee with 100% certainty that the dev's has a different idea of his thematic fantasy than someone who plays the champ religiously. Fear for a shaco rework, he may come out with all of his abilities scaling with HP doing magic damage only. Speaking of tanks... What was old Poppy's identity. I played her alot and I can tell you everytime I saw her, i saw an ugly killing machine that gave no fucks because there is always a way to kill you. I thought her most iconic ability was her Q. It made a crazy sound and HIT LIKE A TRUCK converting all the damage from sheen and auto attacks into magic damage. What did Riot see? They thought her most iconic ability was her E, the one ability I would've love for them to change. They see it as her defining character ability and wanted to design her kit around it. Lo and behold come rework time Poppy with her assassin like damage, speed, and hybrid scaling was completely changed into a peeling tank that was only good when she was op. The funniest part, they ended up nerfing her E range and removing her from the meta. She hasn't been back since. Eve is in the same boat. Binary as fuck kit and ap ratios that are too high on her ult. She will end up getting the nerf hammer too eventually once people start abusing her like they did poppy. Shaco? as annoying as he is now I can see shaco easily getting abused and nerfed also. If I was you Pink ward, I would start campaigning well in advanced if you want to see your champion done right. And even after you do that.... Well lets just say you should be praying riot forgets about shaco. Good luck.
> [{quoted}](name=Starilae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8bA97WY,comment-id=003a,timestamp=2017-12-01T10:33:37.219+0000) > > With the way Riot destroyed rework Evelynn, I highly doubt a new Shaco will keep his hybrid scaling the way it used to be. I talked to Rioters for months and months and months about keeping Evelynn a hybrid. The rework comes around and what do ya fucking know, she is all ap and forced to build like a mage, forever. Her Kit doesn't allow the use of ad items even if she had adaptive ratios. They went a step further and gave her a cookie cutter build. From one of the most diverse champions (if not the most diverse) to 100% predictable in build and gank patterns. Again, I asked about it for MONTHS before the rework, like 6 months almost every day. I used pretty much the same arguments you use for adaptive damage and they completely ignored me and all the Eve mains on the Eve subreddit. They made it clear they were going to do exactly what they wanted and didn't care at all about how we felt or what we had to say. > > A reoccurring reason for the removal of Eve's hybrid ratios was _thematic fantasy_ . Their logic goes like this... "we feel magic damage better suits Eve's thematic fantasy so we are keeping her 100% ap". Seriously, THEMATIC FANTASY. > > Now ask yourself, what is Shaco's thematic killing frenzy. Take that answer and forget about it because i guarantee with 100% certainty that the dev's has a different idea of his thematic fantasy than someone who plays the champ religiously. Fear for a shaco rework, he may come out with all of his abilities scaling with HP doing magic damage only. Speaking of tanks... > > What was old Poppy's identity. I played her alot and I can tell you everytime I saw her, i saw an ugly killing machine that gave no fucks because there is always a way to kill you. I thought her most iconic ability was her Q. It made a crazy sound and HIT LIKE A TRUCK converting all the damage from sheen and auto attacks into magic damage. What did Riot see? They thought her most iconic ability was her E, the one ability I would've love for them to change. They see it as her defining character ability and wanted to design her kit around it. Lo and behold come rework time Poppy with her assassin like damage, speed, and hybrid scaling was completely changed into a peeling tank that was only good when she was op. The funniest part, they ended up nerfing her E range and removing her from the meta. She hasn't been back since. > > Eve is in the same boat. Binary as fuck kit and ap ratios that are too high on her ult. She will end up getting the nerf hammer too eventually once people start abusing her like they did poppy. Shaco? as annoying as he is now I can see shaco easily getting abused and nerfed also. > > If I was you Pink ward, I would start campaigning well in advanced if you want to see your champion done right. And even after you do that.... Well lets just say you should be praying riot forgets about shaco. Good luck. Well, in all honesty, I think Shaco thematically should be a trickster. Someone who uses his quick wits to get ahead of his opponent. Box placement, quick deceiving, and easy movement of his clone, to get kills. Not what he currently is, jump in, auto, run away. A killing frenzy would be someone like Katarina who has multiple resets on kills. So thematically, in your words, Shaco would not be how he currently is.
: I think this is a good idea except: >The biggest con, that I can see, would be that it's hard for opponents to itemize against the adaptive champion. Not knowing if they will be going AD or AP. A tank going into a matchup would see a Tryndamere, and instantly think armor items. He would start his build by rushing Ninja Tabi, and the Tryndamere would come back with a statik shiv. This would make you think he's still going Tryndamere's usual crit build. So the tank player continues building armor, his sunfire cape next, but Tryndamere comes back with a blasting wand. Now his E will be doing magic damage, causing the value in the armor, the tank player bought, to be reduced while in laning phase. If Trynd is able to build adaptively it is harder to itemize against him, but this also prevents him from becoming useless as the game goes on. I disagree with this part because I don't think it's going to be as effective as you assume it'd be. So let's say Tryn comes to lane with a shiv and you got an armor item. Cool, mostly AD. Then he comes back with a blasting wand...uh...ok? Chances are, even if you don't itemize for magic defense, Tryn won't be doing damage so absurd that you're cursing the fact that you bought armor instead of MR. Plus it means that the person will just start building MR instead. Conversely, the tryn player will likely end up with a wonky build if he's going for this awkward half-ap/half-ad mix-up game he's playing, which will lead to Tryn being less effective against someone who went full AP or full AD. Maybe not USELESS but he's not going to hit as hard if he's got half-AP half-ad items. It'll also be obvious depending on what they're maxing in some cases. Kennen maxing his AD bonus on shuriken? Gee, I wonder what type of build he'll be going for early. All that criticism aside, I think that's a fantastic idea to a point. Adaptive could be an interesting tool on some kits and open up a variety of build paths, so long as it's handled well.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8bA97WY,comment-id=0034,timestamp=2017-12-01T06:44:54.574+0000) > > I think this is a good idea except: > > > I disagree with this part because I don't think it's going to be as effective as you assume it'd be. So let's say Tryn comes to lane with a shiv and you got an armor item. Cool, mostly AD. Then he comes back with a blasting wand...uh...ok? Chances are, even if you don't itemize for magic defense, Tryn won't be doing damage so absurd that you're cursing the fact that you bought armor instead of MR. Plus it means that the person will just start building MR instead. Conversely, the tryn player will likely end up with a wonky build if he's going for this awkward half-ap/half-ad mix-up game he's playing, which will lead to Tryn being less effective against someone who went full AP or full AD. Maybe not USELESS but he's not going to hit as hard if he's got half-AP half-ad items. > > It'll also be obvious depending on what they're maxing in some cases. Kennen maxing his AD bonus on shuriken? Gee, I wonder what type of build he'll be going for early. > > All that criticism aside, I think that's a fantastic idea to a point. Adaptive could be an interesting tool on some kits and open up a variety of build paths, so long as it's handled well. The example I was making, is that there are some champions who would seem a bit more toxic with this in this way. Trynd wasn't a great example in this scenario but I feel there could be some examples of champions that would be a bit harder to deal with in this type of way.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 13
Will the ap ratio on Shaco's E be kept?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 30
I'd like to hear your thoughts on champions who have very diverse builds, as in whether they can go ap or ad. I'm an ap Shaco main, so I'm just curious if Riot likes to keep this diversity, or if they would rather take it out completely. It seems very complicated to balance around both attributes on one champion, for example ad vs ap malzahar. If you had the choice, would you just remove all of the ap benefits from a champion and just make them ad or vice versa? With more champions that come out it seems like less and less have hybrid/multiscaling abilities. Kled, Camille and Illaoi come to mind, having no ap ratios in their kit. I can understand, that an ap ratio wouldn't really work with their abilities, but with most of the champions in the historyof league. There are some that do have those hybrid ratios on abilities which, if they were introduced now instead of then, they wouldn't have those ratios on their abilities. Tryndamere, Katarina and Tristana for example.
Meddler (NA)
: We do want to nerf Shaco in general. What we're targeting specifically here is amount of damage that occurs right at the start of an engagement (Shaco gets a lot of tricks to play with, so shouldn't be too front loaded). Can see some risk of bruiser Shaco becoming too ideal, will keep an eye on that, that's not something we're trying to make happen.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=tcjKBREI,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-03-30T16:56:13.927+0000) > > We do want to nerf Shaco in general. What we're targeting specifically here is amount of damage that occurs right at the start of an engagement (Shaco gets a lot of tricks to play with, so shouldn't be too front loaded). Can see some risk of bruiser Shaco becoming too ideal, will keep an eye on that, that's not something we're trying to make happen. Addressing the nerf to Ap ratio on Q. Was there any thought of keeping just the ap part of it and allowing it to crit like it currently does? I think taking off the ability for it to crit is gonna further diminish the viability of the ap shaco playstyle. This will seem like a rant, but Shaco had 45% ap ratio taken off of E (120% prerework down to 75% along with -20% since backstab is no longer the same) and that damage was put onto Q. This was with the thought that the ratio on Q can crit. You are adding compensation on his passive, but it will be a flat ap ratio. Adding to that, in teamfights, as a squishy ap champion, you will most likely only get one, maybe two backstabs off.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 28
What direction are you guys trying to take Shaco? With the current nerfs on the pbe, I feel it will just incentivize the playstyle that has the current high winrate. This nerf really is only going to hit the early game Assassin/Lethality/Crit Shaco and Ap Shaco. The current build that is has that high winrate is the tank/onhit build, Trinity into Titanic then tank. Shaco's winrate in the early game is high till around 25-30mins, that's usually where crit/lethality Shaco falls off. Yet, it pops back up post 35mins when tank/bruiser Shaco is coming online. These early game nerfs are just gonna force those players into farming the early game and ganking when it looks easy. I feel he's becoming what Ekko and Fizz were a few patches ago, build tank on an assassin.
Miltaras3 (EUNE)
: As I mentioned in that video myself I believe the cause of these 'bugs' is the auto attack option that you are given from the 'GAME' section if u press escape and enter the options menu during a game , you ll notice that he DID NOT click any of the champions if you lower the speed of the video at 0.25 , he was only really close to them at both scenarios , I believe that is the cause of the problem and furthermore what that tells us is that if shaco is close to an enemy champion while that option is on this should occur everytime this happens , thus when shaco tries to auto attack even if you try to cancel it , he wll be removed from stealh because he tried to auto attack. A good fix should be to make it like akali's stealth , while akali is in her W she cannot perform an auto attack unless ordered even with that option on.I believe I pretty much covered everything with this explaination.
> [{quoted}](name=Miltaras3,realm=EUNE,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=EjhEqihb,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-11-06T11:52:21.710+0000) > > As I mentioned in that video myself I believe the cause of these 'bugs' is the auto attack option that you are given from the 'GAME' section if u press escape and enter the options menu during a game , you ll notice that he DID NOT click any of the champions if you lower the speed of the video at 0.25 , he was only really close to them at both scenarios , I believe that is the cause of the problem and furthermore what that tells us is that if shaco is close to an enemy champion while that option is on this should occur everytime this happens , thus when shaco tries to auto attack even if you try to cancel it , he wll be removed from stealh because he tried to auto attack. A good fix should be to make it like akali's stealth , while akali is in her W she cannot perform an auto attack unless ordered even with that option on.I believe I pretty much covered everything with this explaination. I don't have auto attack on. The conclusion I came to is that it's the auto input I have put in before Qing in. I cancel it by moving, but the input still goes through when I Q into melee range of the Yasuo. Sceenshot of attack option. https://gyazo.com/f4466fe86b12beaa8e337f68a205c5e7
KoKoboto (NA)
: Holy shit... thanks for the volume warning lol Was this all PBE gameplay?
> [{quoted}](name=KoKoboto,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=EjhEqihb,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-11-06T01:59:56.810+0000) > > Holy shit... thanks for the volume warning lol > > Was this all PBE gameplay? The first 2 clips were Live server. Last one was from PBE.
Rioter Comments
Statikk (NA)
: Assassins Pre-Season Class Update - Systems Tweaks and Smaller Scale Updates
Adding to how pink wards see the invis mechanic, along with red trinket, will they still be able to see/disable teemo, jhin and shaco traps? I know there are some cleanups needing to be done on shaco, but 150 hp with low to no resistances make boxes incredible difficult to use. Having a free item, in red trinket, that is up every 60-80 seconds lasting 10 seconds, that can disable shaco boxes, has a significantly low (if any) counterplay to it. I do understand that boxes are very strong at times, and something needs to be able to work against them, but the fact that it's FREE and disables all of them, makes it hard to play against. I would suggest something along the lines of just revealing, or even disabling at a long range, but if the person with the red trinket walks to close, will cause the boxes to activate, working normally again (fearing when walked to close).
: With the Upcoming Assassin's Rework including Shaco, here are videos of a few Shaco Bugs.
In addition to this, a new Yorick bug. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/nqE6jtPe-gameplay-shacos-clone-r-cannot-attack-yoricks-wall-w
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Jboy334 (NA)
: Working as intended. Have been playing Shaco since season 1. 3000+ games over normals and ranked easily. Have been using this alongside using boxes to block skillshots like blitz/thresh hooks, Ahri E and others.... Both of those are working as intended.
> [{quoted}](name=Jboy334,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=fdqQmolu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-05T16:17:10.151+0000) > > Working as intended. Have been playing Shaco since season 1. 3000+ games over normals and ranked easily. Have been using this alongside using boxes to block skillshots like blitz/thresh hooks, Ahri E and others.... Both of those are working as intended. But how can you say it's intended? Where in his kit does it say "1 box will not stop anything, but 2 or more boxes will stop all abilities." It isn't stated anywhere. Shaco isn't a flavor champion so Riot doesn't have enough instances to see this bug, which is why it hasn't been fixed. That's why I'm shedding some light on it. It is a bug.
Rioter Comments
: Well nobody likes or cares about Shaco or anyone who plays him.
> [{quoted}](name=OperationDEEZ1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ohxl09Ab,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-14T14:39:57.598+0000) > > Well nobody likes or cares about Shaco or anyone who plays him. Ouch
Ghi (NA)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Ghi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ohxl09Ab,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-11-14T13:30:42.128+0000) > > I hate Shaco and Teemo. Built in flash / invis? Perma bush hiding and shrooms all over the map? Screw those. So to me it's a good thing they gave use those lens. Well if you hate perma invs you shouldn't enjoy the fact that you can't see them without a pink ward anymore! The new trinket shows a silhouette of the champion but you can't click or target them for spells allowing for them to be much harder to kill!
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Ha Yuri Zahard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ohxl09Ab,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-14T10:22:43.348+0000) > > Riot should nerf the New Sweeper Lens, than bring back the old sweeper lens. > Such as; > -Making it's CD longer. > -Duration Shorter. > -Unable to sweep inside a bush while outside. > -Making it cost gold, rather than being free. > **Not all of them at once, or else it'd be too weak.** > > Anyways, Shaco and Teemo mains, had to deal with Oracle's Elixir back in Season 1 and 2. > However, after it was removed, it became harder for players to deal with Teemo and Shaco, allowing them to be easier to play. > Even TSM had trouble facing Cloud 9, against Teemo shrooms, with 4 old Sweeper lens, and they lost because the old sweeper lens weren't enough to help them clear the shrooms. > If Pro Players have trouble with the old items, who can expect Solo Q teams to do better? > > I think, in my own opinion, this is a good idea by Riot, since it's weaker than Oracle's Elixir, but better than Old sweeper lenses. > > I can completely agree with why you'd be against these changes, however, every main has to be nerfed someday. I didn't find oracle elixir to be bad. The bad part about the new item is that it always disables the boxes or shrooms, even if they dont have sight of them. If they're in a bush or on the other side of the wall, etc they get disabled. With elixir they didn't get disabled. The fact that the lens completely makes them useless is the point I'm bringing up. There's no counterplay to it and if they buy it it just completely destroys the champions playstyle, especially since they can just walk through the shrooms or boxes to get to the champion. That's part of their escape and part of their strength and buying one item completely destroys that method of play.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Closing the loop on this barring unforseen bugs patch 5.22 should have: * Shaco's clone facing randomized on spawn (instead of always facing the same direction) * Fake versions (visual only) of blue, red and baron buff for Shaco, Wukong and Le Blanc clones * A timer for Shaco's clone remaining duration (only visible to Shaco).
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ERfFn7GA,comment-id=0001000100000004,timestamp=2015-10-25T02:13:20.879+0000) > > Closing the loop on this barring unforseen bugs patch 5.22 should have: > > * Shaco's clone facing randomized on spawn (instead of always facing the same direction) > * Fake versions (visual only) of blue, red and baron buff for Shaco, Wukong and Le Blanc clones > * A timer for Shaco's clone remaining duration (only visible to Shaco). I was wondering if there was any chance we could get a change in boxes slightly. Nothing big, just changing the damage of boxes to "spell damage" to open up ap shaco a little more. It will allow support shaco to benefit from the ap support item better, allow liandries to work on boxes which would help vs tanks, and boxes then would proc ludens. As of now the only things boxes proc are blue elixir, rylais, and morellos. If it procs these items I feel it should also proc the others I mentioned. Either way I'm incredibly hyped for new season and hopefully ap shaco skims under the nerf radar again Kappa
Meddler (NA)
: Closing the loop on this barring unforseen bugs patch 5.22 should have: * Shaco's clone facing randomized on spawn (instead of always facing the same direction) * Fake versions (visual only) of blue, red and baron buff for Shaco, Wukong and Le Blanc clones * A timer for Shaco's clone remaining duration (only visible to Shaco).
Just something to remind, CaptainGankplang said elixirs, but those aren't the only things. Elixirs, smite buffs in jungle, dragon buff (faint yellow/orange glow), lichbane/sheen (probably not something that may go through). There are a lot of other bugs/qol things that should be fixed with shaco. If you're looking for bugs or the qol fixes I do have an older post about it here (Shaco is an older champ so I do understand that he has a lot of bugs with his kit with interaction with champions): Bugs: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/37j504/list_of_shaco_bugs/ Qol: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/wLqKZldx-shaco-and-some-well-needed-quality-of-life-buffskit-updates
: Shaco and some well needed Quality of Life buffs/Kit updates.
Have added some videos evidence of some of these events.
: I believe the op wants the boxes to instantly fear when someone dashes/blinks to a ready box that has already been set up... Which seems fair enough
Yes, i stated that i did not want to change anything about the fade time. i want them to work how they're intended and fear when they have been placed for a while.
Skias (NA)
: The problem is, when allowed to be strong, He is a misery to play against. He has a full rework coming, which he desperately needs. Stealth is a mechanic in League of Legends which historically works terribly. Most iterations of stealth have been problematic or caused the champion to sustain massive nerfs. I agree with you however, it does suck that the champion you enjoy has strange quirks. Not trying to say that your concerns are without warrant.
Everyone does keep saying he's having a rework coming up, but I do not see any indication besides a red post 1 year ago to say he does. https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202294884-Champion-Update-Schedule But addressing what you brought up, none of these things (besides #4) are buffs to Shaco. They are just kinks that need to be worked out for the better use of the champion. Quality of life buffs aren't actually buffs, they just help clean up the kit of the champion so they don't feel as buggy/glitchy. They help outdated characters catch up with the other champions and synergy of skills. Nothing I'm addressing in the above post are buffs, just things that need to be FIXED. :)
: And even AD shaco maxes W after E...
Honestly, sometimes I do not even put a point into R at level 11 till I maxed out W and E because the only beneficial thing that comes with it is lower CD and i think a bit more damage (Maxes at 600).
: Well yeah, but people rarely go AP Shaco, because JitB just isn't a reliable source of damage.
Ap Shaco is over looked because everyone just goes ad. It does plenty of damage and i have plenty of games where i do MOST damage on the team. Boxes aren't the only source of damage for ap shaco, especially if you get a lichbane then your combo of Q> get behind enemy > Auto > E > Auto is probably the best and is mostly used on squishies. More later into the game, JiBs are very useful as a source of kiting and some slight damage. The reliability that i am talking about is having a box down and knowing it will fear them, not hoping that it will if they push onto your team.
Reimυ (EUNE)
: He is getting reworked in a month or 2 and if his splash art is any indication, they are keeping his Jitb and clone, so they will probably be improved.
Maybe, the last red post i saw on it was a year ago. :) We'll see!
: Riot won't touch shaco until he is remade. JiB is an awful skill by today standards.It was made so any non mobile champ can dodge by just walking by it. Anyone with a displacement can easly dodge your box. A 0.5 fear for a skills that generally is the last one to be lvl. Shaco was good with counter jungling. Counter jungle now is a crap if you don't get a kill. Buffs used to be good, now they are just for "meh". Shaco has no wave clears, has only a way in for ganking/assassinate, has mana problems in the jungle and falls off hard late game if you don't split push. I guess the only reason to pick him over j4 is that shaco can help a lane snow ball. If you laners suck, well you would be better with lee sin or j4 for the late game, tankyness and tons of damage.
JiBs have a decent activation range. When you get a few of them on the ground, it's actually harder to dodge them. I use Shaco in lane and am pretty successful with it. The fear scales up to 1.5 second at max level. Hallucination can clear a whole creep wave at level 1, and will be up again in 2-3 creep waves depending upon your cdr. His team fighting can be good if you know how to box well. Your team, mostly your adc, needs to use the boxes to kite, and you're in their backline poking down/killing their carry(ies).
: I mean, I think it's more likely because at best, AD or AP, only two of his four moves scale with the relevant skill. And nobody goes AP Shaco in summoner's rift... so once your E and Q are maxed, you're done scaling. Still, though, he can do very well if he gets a few kills early-game.
Actually three of his skills scale with Ap, Boxes 20% ratio, Shiv 100% ratio, Hallucination 100% ratio. Mechanically, Hallucination can be the hardest damage to get off, but if they added the ways to not notice which Shaco is real, it could be more viable. Besides that I use Hallucination for clear in the early game because I play lane Shaco. Shiv for poke, boxes for when being ganked to turn ganks around and for baiting/cheesing (hate when people use this word) my enemy lane opponent.
Zahz (NA)
: I dont see how u can compare a jib to teemos shrooms. Teemos shrooms do what they do because they are technically his ultimate skill. And shacos boxes have a much larger range then a teemo shroom does. If they applied this insta fear i think it would be open up to some pretty hardcore abuse. Shaco as an ap is interesting but i honestly have never seen one succeed anywhere near the level he does when he is AD and i feel like thats where they wanna keep him. Its awesome that u can make it work but i dont think that means it is grounds for a buff either without risking it becoming broken. Anything u do to ap shaco will also have effects on ad shaco . Imagine ad shaco having insta fear box. you would never get away nor could u ever catch him
First, all 3 of his skills are magic damage. Jack in the boxes, Shiv, and Hallucination all have ap ratios. his Box (W) has a 20% ap ratio, his Shiv (E) has a 100% ap ratio, and Hallucination (R) Have a 100% ap ratio. His build can be viable as ap completely with practice, as can any other champion. Think of Zyra's plants. They are a base skill that apply movement slow of Rylai's, and burn effect of Liandry's. Even Caitlyn traps, Maokai Sapplings and Nidalee's Bushwack apply item effects. Next addressing the Insta fear, I am not talking about the fade time of the Box, I mean the moment when the approach the box and activate it. None of these buffs will allow for it to be 'broken' it will just allow for the shaco player for more useful counter play. You can still attack both shaco and the clone to see which is real/fake because the clone takes 50% extra damage.
: I played Shaco on ARAM today, had no idea what I was doing, built random AP items, and ended the game 7/3/something. Given that I'm already not a very good melee AP champ player, I can conclude from this that overall Shaco does not need a buff. Overall. Key word. Because I agree with every individual point you make, but he is at a good power level right now. So I would say implement these changes, but nerf something else to compensate. Maybe base damage on his E?
If something changes it would most likely be his passive. The base damage on his E is really bad at the moment, Level 5 E only having 210 base damage a lower base is really negligible. His passive allows for 20% extra damage to be done from behind, a nerf to it would be to only allow his auto attacks, but to be honest the only other thing that I find that work with it is his E and lichbane also. Boxes don't effect it the same way. I'm slightly against it cause I'm an ap shaco main so haha.
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Cant Catch Me

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