: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=000100000004000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-23T16:44:29.240+0000) > > Yes. > > The thing with a pro scene is that there has to be competitive depth, difficulty and room to improve. Many of the things required to make casuals have a better time mean having key aspects of these removed in favor of sanding off edges. To use your own example, Galio flash-W timing (while simple) was still something that required planning, foresight and using a resources that as you put is often used to escape. Now the option no longer exists, making the game simpler because rather than balance Galio around pros we have to remove aspects so he's easier to balance around pros and casuals. > > Pros and high ELOs need things catered to them because they're the apex and the best. They should be rewarded for reaching that state, not told "Well you put forth a lot of time, effort and skill to get good at this game so we're gonna say fuck you and balance around the guy who is terrible _but_ he sometimes gives us money like you do." Good luck with the argument since people are leaving more and more. If Esport is everything to you and you just ignore those casual players, good luck for keeping this game alive. There are not enough new players to compensate for those leavers. Hell yeah balance for the 0.0001% and let this game die.
> [{quoted}](name=John Westlin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=0001000000040000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-24T19:35:00.785+0000) > > Good luck with the argument since people are leaving more and more. If Esport is everything to you and you just ignore those casual players, good luck for keeping this game alive. There are not enough new players to compensate for those leavers. Hell yeah balance for the 0.0001% and let this game die. As previously pointed out, two of the longest running games (Counter Strike and DOTA) have almost exclusive pro-tier balance. Smash melee is no longer played by casuals yet still has a dedicated fan base that pulls in numbers. Fighting games from the 90s still have players hosting locals and scenes. You've got the inverse PoV: Balancing for high tier is how the game SURVIVES. Balancing for casuals is how the game DIES. Casuals will eventually leave regardless of how the game caters to them because they are fickle. Pros and high-tier will stick with the game because they actually love it. But sure, let's keep balancing for casuals as the game continues to have them leave. At least with pro-balance we'll come out of this with a strong competitive game that can be played by a smaller playerbase for years to come, rather than a casualized game that has no audience because it continued to chase after a massive, fickle mob.
: Can we please have a dynamic meta again?
>I'm seeing a pattern that has developed over the past several seasons that I find VERY problematic. I think a lot of it has to do with the broad reworks across entire classes, or entire item sets, but I also think A LOT of it is intentional by Riot. The pattern is that rather than working towards a universal sense of unified balance across styles of play, Riot seems to have decided on a single style of play that they deem "correct" and just pushed that forward, rapidly removing options. Let me illustrate with examples: Actually, it's usually the players who cause this to happen. Let's take some recent examples of where new picks come out: * Viktor top lane: Deemed "cancer". Community outcry forces it to die. * Aatrox/Urgot/Irelia mid: Deemed "cancer". Community outcry which eventually forces changes for all three. * Non-ADC Bot lanes: ADC players rage so hard they revert a good chunk of ADC changes. * Solo lane Tristana: Again, deemed as a sign of bad times. I don't believe it's gotten changes yet? * Tank Driver Yuumi (Yuumi + Tanky DPS like Garen): Yall know where this one is going. For a community that preaches about how it misses "diversity" and "unique picks", the moment one appears it's deemed unfun, wrong, or "not using the character as they should be". I can't imagine if original Sion or AP Yi existed today. Those champs would have been gutted so hard they'd have never existed in history.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=0001000000040000,timestamp=2019-08-22T16:07:47.547+0000) > > It's actually a pretty right choice because pro scenes carry the game longer than the casual scene. > > Look at DOTA. Look at CS:GO. Look at Starcraft 1. Are these games still around because they catered to the casual player? Nope! In fact, they've actually said "fuck the casual" in 95% of circumstances and told players to get good. As of today they're now some of the longest running competitive games because this focus on pro-balance has made the game rewarding to master, not dumbing it down so that the casual players who will likely leave the moment things don't go their way can have fun. > > For both game quality and longevity, pro balance _is_ the way to go. History proves it. I get what you're saying but do you honestly think the pro scene would vanish if they catered to the casual player? I fully agree that champs shouldn't be dumbed down, but I also think pros could be a little more adaptable. Like the galio flash taunt being removed. While all champs don't have the peel to necessarily avoid it, it was a known risk, not to mention made up for galio's reduced movement speed. I think it was also a nice spin on the use of flash imo. Flash is typically used as an escape or to secure a kill, but using it as an all in engage tactic was pretty wild. Also saying history proves something when the reverse hasn't been tested is a fallacy.
> [{quoted}](name=SirLanc3lot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=00010000000400000001,timestamp=2019-08-23T16:30:10.581+0000) > > I get what you're saying but do you honestly think the pro scene would vanish if they catered to the casual player? I fully agree that champs shouldn't be dumbed down, but I also think pros could be a little more adaptable. Like the galio flash taunt being removed. While all champs don't have the peel to necessarily avoid it, it was a known risk, not to mention made up for galio's reduced movement speed. I think it was also a nice spin on the use of flash imo. Flash is typically used as an escape or to secure a kill, but using it as an all in engage tactic was pretty wild. Also saying history proves something when the reverse hasn't been tested is a fallacy. Yes. The thing with a pro scene is that there has to be competitive depth, difficulty and room to improve. Many of the things required to make casuals have a better time mean having key aspects of these removed in favor of sanding off edges. To use your own example, Galio flash-W timing (while simple) was still something that required planning, foresight and using a resources that as you put is often used to escape. Now the option no longer exists, making the game simpler because rather than balance Galio around pros we have to remove aspects so he's easier to balance around pros and casuals. Pros and high ELOs need things catered to them because they're the apex and the best. They should be rewarded for reaching that state, not told "Well you put forth a lot of time, effort and skill to get good at this game so we're gonna say fuck you and balance around the guy who is terrible _but_ he sometimes gives us money like you do."
: /dev: Changes to Eternals
Better. Still no ideal, but better. Hopefully they make it more worth it and/or eventually have rare eternals show up in BE.
: If this game were anywhere remotely being balanced around the pro scene, don't you think more champions would be viable in the pro scene? Spring LCS Statistics: 85 champions picked. 85 out of 145 picked over an entire season, that's 58%. For comparison, 81% of DotA heroes were picked _on the very first day_ of TI9 this past week. Something tells me League isn't being balanced for either pro or casual play.
> [{quoted}](name=Bad Footwear,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OdEOR6HX,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2019-08-22T23:58:20.065+0000) > > If this game were anywhere remotely being balanced around the pro scene, don't you think more champions would be viable in the pro scene? > > Something tells me League isn't being balanced for either pro or casual play. Naw, you're misreading. He's saying people who think the game should be balanced around high ELO/pro scene are dumb. Because you know there are a gorillion casuals each one ready and willing to drop giant stacks of cash which will keep the light on. It's pretty much a direct response to my thread that Riot has to pick a side, with me siding on the fact that pros/high elo should be the ones catered to as they're the best and will stick with the game long after the casual population has moved on.
: The problem with this logic is games like fortnite exist. Catering to the streamer who is probably platinum+ and pugging, is probably going to be the future. Also, designing around pro play only is a mistake because pros have some things that pugs never will: communication and a coach. Pros work together all year on communicating and coordinating alongside their coach. They've been practicing around how to use specific champs and combos for weeks or months. There's no way pugs will ever pull that off and frankly designing for the pros is a mistake. The heart of the game is the pugs. The financial lifeblood of the game is the pugs. Riot's best advertizers are the streamers, most of which are pug players. Riot needs to go back to balancing and designing around plat, which is where people have mechanically mastered the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=00010000000400000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T17:24:48.836+0000) > > The problem with this logic is games like fortnite exist. > > Catering to the streamer who is probably platinum+ and pugging, is probably going to be the future. Also, designing around pro play only is a mistake because pros have some things that pugs never will: communication and a coach. Pros work together all year on communicating and coordinating alongside their coach. They've been practicing around how to use specific champs and combos for weeks or months. > > There's no way pugs will ever pull that off and frankly designing for the pros is a mistake. The heart of the game is the pugs. The financial lifeblood of the game is the pugs. Riot's best advertizers are the streamers, most of which are pug players. > > Riot needs to go back to balancing and designing around plat, which is where people have mechanically mastered the game. There's no problem with that logic because Fortnite has been around for a handful of years compared to both those games and there is absolutely no telling if the game can sustain itself forever. You're essentially comparing a 2 year old to a 20 year old and going "See? Both ways work". If Fortnite is around for that long yeah, maybe you have a point. However every casual game is either gone and/or has a tiny playerbase of dedicated individuals who still play. And frankly the tier should be much higher than plat+. D2 or higher is around where real high ELO is while the other elos are filled with a variety of things. Designing and balancing around plat can't happen anymore due to how plat has changed as well as the changing scale of ability in this game. Casuals got the game to where it is. Pros are what will keep it around for years to come.
JoeMG (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-08-22T04:22:18.967+0000) > > This _always_ gets brought up and no, it does not work. > > Part of what drew competitive people to league was the story that "anyone can climb and be the best". Anyone can rise up in the ranks, go pro, etc. Beyond this, let's go with the idea that there are now a pro and a pug LoL: > > * 1.) Pro games are now nothing like PUGs. This kills advertisement potential because players are using entirely different champions. Seeing a sick play on Azir and being hyped up to play him, only to realize he's totally different from the Pro version you were just watching. > > * 2.) No pros can stream or practice and likewise, those looking to go pro are now fucked for playing on a "normal" server because the game completely changes. > > * 3.) You've now doubled the work needed for league. And no, that's not a good thing. You'll have to completely change the game and there's not even a way for players to be aware of buffs/nerfs in the pro scene without patch notes. Not to mention the bugs that have to now be tested between pro/pug versions. > > In addition, no game does pro/pug balancing different. Not even a game like smash brothers, in which you can modify the champs with options. Everyone plays the exact same unless a player takes it upon themselves to create house rules and modify champions. League would be the first and (quite likely) the last for the dumpster fire this would cause. Off the top of my head, Halo 3 and Halo Reach had separate settings for MLG. Move speed and damage modifiers were used to make the game more fast paced. The thing about that was that the MLG variants were also available as a playlist in the game. We know Riot loves removing playlists as opposed to adding them so something like this would never happen anyway.
> [{quoted}](name=JoeMG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T16:54:16.988+0000) > > Off the top of my head, Halo 3 and Halo Reach had separate settings for MLG. Move speed and damage modifiers were used to make the game more fast paced. The thing about that was that the MLG variants were also available as a playlist in the game. We know Riot loves removing playlists as opposed to adding them so something like this would never happen anyway. And notice how neither took off nor is played competitively anymore. Meanwhile CS is still competitively viable and frequently in gameplay. You also have to account for the fact that there is damage tuning and recoil. Comparatively, league and other strategy games can't coast on damage and number tuning for pro play. If they were to balance for pro play, they would have to gut mechanics and abilities. Which means they would be vastly different from each other. A more comparative idea would be if weapons lost/gained major components, such has the energy sword having a massively increased while in the other mode it doesn't even have a charge. Either way, separate balancing is the wrong way to go. You want custom games, I agree, but actual queues for pros and pugs is the wrong way to go.
: Should be optimally played. The problem is that you then only cater to .0001% of the playerbase, and completely ignore and disenfranchise everyone else. Like I posted up above though, there should be two versions of balance in league. One for pros and one for solo Queue running simultaneously. I genuinely believe that would actually REDUCE the time and money need to balance the game for a number of reasons.
> [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=000100000005,timestamp=2019-08-22T16:43:09.263+0000) > > Should be optimally played. The problem is that you then only cater to .0001% of the playerbase, and completely ignore and disenfranchise everyone else. > > Like I posted up above though, there should be two versions of balance in league. One for pros and one for solo Queue running simultaneously. I genuinely believe that would actually REDUCE the time and money need to balance the game for a number of reasons. Just gonna [permalink](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rc3q2V7w-galio-is-the-perfect-example-of-modern-league?show=flat&comment=000b0000) this comment because it sums up the reasoning why balancing for two different versions doesn't work.
: Well in Dota 2 98% of champion rooster is playable and played despite here in lol.
> [{quoted}](name=Neumím Riven,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OdEOR6HX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T10:36:55.993+0000) > > Well in Dota 2 98% of champion rooster is playable and played despite here in lol. The magic of pro-focused gameplay. Highly diverse and fun gameplay that's exciting to watch.
Destaice (NA)
: “This champion is too strong in pro play so now nobody gets to play it.”
Yep, for the longevity of the game that's the way to go. Do you think DOTA lasted almost two decades because they catered to casuals? Do you think CS:GO has lasted as long as it has because it gives cookies to the dude in the lowest rank? Nope. High-tier balance has repeatedly proved that it's the right choice when it comes to keeping games fresh and relevant. The fact is casuals leave the moment they don't get their way, taking their large-but-temporary revenue stream with them. This means that your game has to survive on the dedicated ones and a thriving pro scene. We're seeing it right now in-fact: Casual players aren't getting their way so they threaten to leave the game in droves. Meanwhile the high tier/pros stick around because they both enjoy the game and/or are doing it for a career. If League balances around pros (or even just high ELO ala D2+), casuals will eventually leave but you'll have a dedicated, hardcore fanbase that will stick with the game for years to go. If League balances around casuals, casuals will play the game for a little while longer until they eventually leave, leaving you with a simplistic game made for the common player which has no lasting power as pros have moved on.
: This is such a dumb argument in 2019. When you have millions of people playing you shouldn't say "Screw you casual guy, too bad you aren't a pro player" and only balance for pro play. That is honestly stupid and that argument is the dumbest thing.
> [{quoted}](name=CallMeBoomer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=000100000004,timestamp=2019-08-22T13:00:37.992+0000) > > This is such a dumb argument in 2019. When you have millions of people playing you shouldn't say "Screw you casual guy, too bad you aren't a pro player" and only balance for pro play. That is honestly stupid and that argument is the dumbest thing. It's actually a pretty right choice because pro scenes carry the game longer than the casual scene. Look at DOTA. Look at CS:GO. Look at Starcraft 1. Are these games still around because they catered to the casual player? Nope! In fact, they've actually said "fuck the casual" in 95% of circumstances and told players to get good. As of today they're now some of the longest running competitive games because this focus on pro-balance has made the game rewarding to master, not dumbing it down so that the casual players who will likely leave the moment things don't go their way can have fun. For both game quality and longevity, pro balance _is_ the way to go. History proves it.
K3ars3n (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-22T01:38:46.262+0000) > > And it's not because "bweh bweh bweh tanks bad :(" > > Galio is the ultimate example of the problem Riot continues to (and will forever run into): Balancing for pro and pug play **NO LONGER WORKS**. > > So we have Galio on rework, a pretty decent champ. He's got some AP Ratios, he's got parts of his old kit and overall he's workable for players in PUGs. The problem then arises that Galio turns out to be _really fucking good_ as a tanky initiator. Pro play now picks up Galio and abuses the shit out of him while he's generally "workable" in PUG play. > > Now fast forward months. Galio has been retooled into an AP Battlemage (which failed), then back to an out-and-out tank (which failed) and then back into this weird hybrid of parts until he's no longer an issue in pro play at the cost of his PUG play. But now he's going to get buffed to be pickable/decent in soloqueue which will not help his pro play at all, forever doomed to fly between "PUG stomper" or "Pro-averse". > > Riot, this isn't 2012 anymore. > You can't balance for these two (three if you count high-ELO solo queue) gameplay. > The needs of pros are vastly different than the needs of pugs. > > Pick a side and stick with it. This isn't making anyone happy anymore. PUGs are whining because their favorite champs are changed and chopped apart due to pro play. Pros are whining because they're stuck playing similar champs over and over because Issac Iron in Iron 3 _has_ to be allowed to play Azir because he got a new skin for him. I would prefer pros get catered to but get over this insane desire to make everyone happy. Because right now you're making nobody happy. All of which could easily be fixed if the damage in the game was reduced by a substantial amount making the utility of a single dive (or a single kill) MEAN less in the overall outcome of the game. Right now damage is through the roof, more and more champions are coming out that can 'do it all' and from my perspective has been going on for years. Yasuo was the first outright release champ that had everything. When one kill means possibly two towers, a dragon or baron and most probably the game, it's no wonder that the balance for pro play has taken a huge hit! TLDR: Damage needs to be cut in half or to the point where one 'flashy LC$' play doesn't mean the game is over. Right now it simply is and it is all at the feet of Riot and there speedier games mindset
> [{quoted}](name=K3ars3n,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2019-08-22T12:31:47.254+0000) > > All of which could easily be fixed if the damage in the game was reduced by a substantial amount making the utility of a single dive (or a single kill) MEAN less in the overall outcome of the game. > > Right now damage is through the roof, more and more champions are coming out that can 'do it all' and from my perspective has been going on for years. Yasuo was the first outright release champ that had everything. > > When one kill means possibly two towers, a dragon or baron and most probably the game, it's no wonder that the balance for pro play has taken a huge hit! > > TLDR: Damage needs to be cut in half or to the point where one 'flashy LC$' play doesn't mean the game is over. Right now it simply is and it is all at the feet of Riot and there speedier games mindset This is flat-out incorrect and trying to phrase the argument as a different thing. You could reduce the damage in the game by 90% and you'd STILL have this problem because it's not a _numbers_ problem. It's a _design_ problem. If you had actually read the post, you'd see that my points are that the design of champions and characters these days is far more complex and difficult than the older days. Simple number adjustments don't work anymore to sate the needs of pros nor pugs. This means that Riot has to be more drastic. Ever notice how champs like Kalista, Azir, Irelia and Aatrox had huge mechanical changes from losing/gaining passives, changing how they functioned? Ever notice how Ryze, a constant pro-play staple, has had several reworks to try and make him work for both pros and pugs? No, changing the game's damage will not fix anything. If anything it'll only exacerbate the issue because now champions are picked 90% on design and not numbers. Which will further cause issues in pros where macro and micro are valued while PUG play values who has the biggest butterknife or winrate in this nerf world.
: What if someone wants to play kalista or azir but isn't good at the game? Should they be forever doomed to lose the majority of their games simply because LC$ players can have voice comms and can play much better on that champ? Pros make up an incredibly small portion of the playerbase and should not be the metric for balance.
> [{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2019-08-22T07:34:03.138+0000) > > What if someone wants to play kalista or azir but isn't good at the game? Should they be forever doomed to lose the majority of their games simply because LC$ players can have voice comms and can play much better on that champ? > > Pros make up an incredibly small portion of the playerbase and should not be the metric for balance. Then they should attempt to improve. As a DOTA example: You wanna play Invoker well? Fine. Go for it. It's gonna be a hard climb but with hard work and diligence, you'll be up there and recognized as a really great Invoker player. This doesn't happen in League except for a select few champs. Most champs end up simplified so that everyone can play them. Azir, for example, had about a quarter of his mechanics removed JUST so he could be better balanced for Pro/PUG play. And it still doesn't work. Don't take away the hard work of others by letting everyone play a champ. Instead, make it so that the few who actually master the champ are sufficiently rewarded while those who aspire to be like them have a climb to take with a pretty big prize waiting at the top.
Wacky9 (NA)
: Just balance separately. Pros are paid to play League at a different level than everyone else, and that should be taken into account. Organized play is completely different from high-elo and people in soloQ should be able to play Shen without feeling useless, just because pros can abuse it.
> [{quoted}](name=Wacky9,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-08-22T03:49:18.001+0000) > > Just balance separately. Pros are paid to play League at a different level than everyone else, and that should be taken into account. Organized play is completely different from high-elo and people in soloQ should be able to play Shen without feeling useless, just because pros can abuse it. This _always_ gets brought up and no, it does not work. Part of what drew competitive people to league was the story that "anyone can climb and be the best". Anyone can rise up in the ranks, go pro, etc. Beyond this, let's go with the idea that there are now a pro and a pug LoL: * 1.) Pro games are now nothing like PUGs. This kills advertisement potential because players are using entirely different champions. Seeing a sick play on Azir and being hyped up to play him, only to realize he's totally different from the Pro version you were just watching. * 2.) No pros can stream or practice and likewise, those looking to go pro are now fucked for playing on a "normal" server because the game completely changes. * 3.) You've now doubled the work needed for league. And no, that's not a good thing. You'll have to completely change the game and there's not even a way for players to be aware of buffs/nerfs in the pro scene without patch notes. Not to mention the bugs that have to now be tested between pro/pug versions. In addition, no game does pro/pug balancing different. Not even a game like smash brothers, in which you can modify the champs with options. Everyone plays the exact same unless a player takes it upon themselves to create house rules and modify champions. League would be the first and (quite likely) the last for the dumpster fire this would cause.
Kazekiba (NA)
: You absolutely CAN balance around both sides. Plenty of champs are equally strong in both environments (Pyke, GP before getting nerfed heavily, etc.) However, you cannot *design* around all levels of play equally. Non-damaging ultimates, especially ones that interact with allies more than/in addition to the caster, will guarantee any mediocre champion is absolutely broken in Pro play. Galio's R is basically non-existent now because rather than make it more selfish, they just stripped the team power from it completely; On top of that, they gave an AP juggernaut a dash on a basic ability for no reason; Original Galio had an AoE move steroid like a support Nocturne Q and an ally-castable shield + buff that benefitted Galio regardless of who the target of the shield was. Riot stripped all of that in favor of as much AoE damage as possible, on every single ability, and even moved far away from his MR tank that he -- And now all of Demacia's lore - is based around. *The entire reason Demacia has this persecution of all mages storyline now is because Galio was synonymous with MR* but because Riot can't design for shit, he ended up losing most of that incentive and just building like every other tank.
> [{quoted}](name=Kazekiba,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-08-22T02:20:06.264+0000) > > However, you cannot *design* around all levels of play equally. Which leads to my "This isn't 2012" comment. 2012 champion design and before was _incredibly_ simple. Much less moving parts, much less things to keep track of and overall a much easier game. There will be detractors but I stand by this point. As the game goes on however, there is less and less room for simplistic, basic designs. League is not the only one doing this mind you: Compare DOTA heroes like Monkey King, Arc Warden and Grimstroke to earlier heroes like Sven, Anti-mage and others. If Riot had stopped making ANYTHING at the end of 2012 or around 2013 sure, you could do this. But Riot didn't and with good reason. Which means there will be champs who cannot be viable in PUG without being utterly broken in pro or champions who will be pickable at best in PUG but dogshit in Pro. So now we've come to the crossroads we're at now, which means we need to pick a side and stick with it. Either than or make every champion garen level.
Terozu (NA)
: PUG?
> [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-22T02:07:24.702+0000) > > PUG? Pick Up Games. AKA Solo queue, Normal queue, and most ranked queues sub-D3
: I mean I'd have to argue against catering to the pros as a whole. They should be good enough to make it work and they're getting paid to be there as opposed to the average Joe who plays for fun. If something's overbuffed in pro play and about average viable in solo queue then so be it. I don't have problems with champions like Azir being unplayable in iron because they're difficult to execute on, but chopping Galio out of the game because the pros don't like it should be secondary to player experience.
> [{quoted}](name=AccurateYeet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc3q2V7w,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-22T01:47:46.006+0000) > > I mean I'd have to argue against catering to the pros as a whole. They should be good enough to make it work and they're getting paid to be there as opposed to the average Joe who plays for fun. If something's overbuffed in pro play and about average viable in solo queue then so be it. > > I don't have problems with champions like Azir being unplayable in iron because they're difficult to execute on, but chopping Galio out of the game because the pros don't like it should be secondary to player experience. I prefer pro-tier balance because Pro-tier is how the game should be optimally played: Five incredibly skilled players vs. five incredibly skilled players working as an organized team with a structured gameplan. (Or if you're NA ramming your face into a wall until your nose breaks or the wall gives). I'd also like to see more variety in pro play with several champions being played in high degrees. That said, you're not wrong to have a different opinion than me. If anything, this just proves my point how neither of us get what we want because 50/50 balancing.
Rioter Comments
: should i return to league?
Go for it bro. Meta's pretty sick right now. Good players rewarded, bad players are punished accordingly.
NY64 (NA)
: Make Hextech require 3 champions instead of 2
That's fine. Especially considering the hextech 4 buff is useless (2 extra squares, I've NEVER seen it) _and_ the classes that require overlap are insanely broad.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=lBpb5K09,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-08-21T19:52:46.170+0000) > > Pretty sure NB did have daily missions actually that did give you free stuff mostly tied to the mode with a spattering of emotes, iirc. Basically the same as TFT actually. > > EDIT: It was also said that having "too many missions" made NB boring and burnt people out on the mode yet for some reason it's not happening for TFT. Q u e s t i o n m a r k ? Thats because TFT missions are boring shit that you already naturally do like “use X type unit” or “play 3 games” and not insane bullshit like “Pray that you win one of the 3 events, then pray you get one of the 11~ rewards (battle sled), then slam into enemies, which will likely get you killed, 50 times”, for example. THATS why we got burnt out. If we got rewarded for playing the game or playing X type of champ (marksmen, bruiser, etc) or, fuck, idk, “Win 5 events as a team (total)” Not bullshit like BaTtLe SlEd InTo FiFtY eNeMiEs
> [{quoted}](name=AetherArising,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=lBpb5K09,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2019-08-21T23:40:30.447+0000) > > Thats because TFT missions are boring shit that you already naturally do like “use X type unit” or “play 3 games” and not insane bullshit like “Pray that you win one of the 3 events, then pray you get one of the 11~ rewards (battle sled), then slam into enemies, which will likely get you killed, 50 times”, for example. > > THATS why we got burnt out. If we got rewarded for playing the game or playing X type of champ (marksmen, bruiser, etc) or, fuck, idk, “Win 5 events as a team (total)” > > Not bullshit like BaTtLe SlEd InTo FiFtY eNeMiEs I don't think we're playing the same missions and I'd like yours. "Use 20 unit or 20 of Unit" (Btw they don't stack). Play 15+ games to 4-5 or later. Place 1st/2nd OR build a hyper specific item. Y'know. Things that are either difficult, time consuming or actively hindering your gameplay. Even so, with these long ass missions, we still see more people. Granted, that _Is_ because TFT offers a different experience and thus attracts a group of people who would never play League unlike NB, which only attracted a small few compared to SR. Which, again, sucks because I liked the mode.
Bazerka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ywFy01Ku,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-08-21T19:51:39.991+0000) > > Where didja work before Riot? I worked for the Minneapolis Public School District :). Shoutout to all my coworkers in MPS!
> [{quoted}](name=Bazerka,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ywFy01Ku,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2019-08-21T20:08:41.377+0000) > > I worked for the Minneapolis Public School District :). Shoutout to all my coworkers in MPS! No kidding. I was a substitute teacher before my current job.
: A balanced champion gets buffed
Cycle isn't quite correct: Champion "balanced" in solo queue but busted in pro play. Champion will receive a nerf that makes them gone in pro play but killed in solo queue. Community rages about "DUH LC$" Riot caves, buffs champ in another category. Champ is now either busted in pro play or total dogshit while "pickable at best" in solo queue. Repeat endlessly as Riot swings wildly between yolo queue for bad players and the best players in the world. TL;DR pick pro or pugs and leave it at that.
Juice (EUNE)
: There are so many champs that make me feel like I'm playing on Nightmare difficulty
Nope, save for two guys: {{champion:64}} {{champion:81}} Very strange how some of the oldest champs are also some of the most _truly_ problematic.
: Imagine if Dominion/TT/Rotating Modes/Nexus Blitz had daily missions that give you free stuff...
Pretty sure NB did have daily missions actually that did give you free stuff mostly tied to the mode with a spattering of emotes, iirc. Basically the same as TFT actually. EDIT: It was also said that having "too many missions" made NB boring and burnt people out on the mode yet for some reason it's not happening for TFT. Q u e s t i o n m a r k ?
Bazerka (NA)
: Lunch break w/ Baz
Where didja work before Riot?
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE3HkQBJ,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-08-20T18:24:42.192+0000) > > Mostly because Cait's headshot is just an additional bonus damage buff, unlike Jhin (Who gets an absolutely massive crit + MS), Annie (Who gets a stun) and Pantheon (who gets EVERYTHING empowered). By that logic, they should remove Vayne's W since it's just an additional damage buff and therefore doesn't need the visual indicator.
> [{quoted}](name=Freeza with an I,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE3HkQBJ,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-08-21T06:45:25.546+0000) > > By that logic, they should remove Vayne's W since it's just an additional damage buff and therefore doesn't need the visual indicator. The thing is when Cait has a headshot ready, you see it in her particles on her hand. Same deal with Vayne. Jhin/Annie have much bigger effects than Cait and Vayne so they naturally have more visible indicators. Jhin primarily has it because you always need to be aware of how many shots he has lest you get 1-2'd by a surprise nukeshot you didn't see coming and Annie because stuns.
: Why doesn't Caitlyn have a Headshot counter under her HP?
Mostly because Cait's headshot is just an additional bonus damage buff, unlike Jhin (Who gets an absolutely massive crit + MS), Annie (Who gets a stun) and Pantheon (who gets EVERYTHING empowered).
: Has anyone noticed how deathly quiet Riot has been since they announced Eternals?
Hopefully Bazerka gets some kinda Rioter award for being here and just tanking this aggro.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=EYPxRHgo,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-08-18T17:56:42.138+0000) > > They're affected, but it's rarely enough to completely swing a fight unless A.) You've got one hyper stacked hypercarry or B.) you're way far behind and items are the crutch keeping you up. And yeah, prior to hextech. Now with hextech they often last 25-30 seconds, almost double what it was. Fact is that hextech rarely affects the game in a meaningful way beyond disabling the one rare hyper-carry-comp someone is running. Most people either dip a _little_ into hextech (Mostly Vi and Jinx) or they don't bother going out of their way to build it at all. > > It's a neat trait. It's somewhat useful but it's hardly unhealthy nor utterly game warping. It's decent at best. Hextech is active for 80% of most fights, as at later levels when they've gotten the full bonus it covers the extra duration of the fight. It's a trait that almost completely removes half of the strategy in the game, as it's not just about the RNG of getting champions or picking the right traits to run, but also using what items you get to make up for the weaknesses in your team and strategy. Hextech just says "screw you" to any item-reliant traits, which are the majority.
> [{quoted}](name=Glasletter,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=EYPxRHgo,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-19T03:11:19.996+0000) > > Hextech is active for 80% of most fights, as at later levels when they've gotten the full bonus it covers the extra duration of the fight. It's a trait that almost completely removes half of the strategy in the game, as it's not just about the RNG of getting champions or picking the right traits to run, but also using what items you get to make up for the weaknesses in your team and strategy. > > Hextech just says "screw you" to any item-reliant traits, which are the majority. ...Yeah, no. At best, it's like 20-30% of the fight. Especially late game. And NOBODY is running full hextech. Are you insane? Nobles is a comp that's good enough to run despite having only one synergy in the comp (Knight 1, which is meh by the time you get Kayle). Blademaster is good enough to run despite a lack of synergy. Etc. Hextech is nowhere close to as good as those for the weird hodgepodge of champions you have to run. Hextech also _adds_ strategy to the game because it forces you to vary up comp and modify how you put items on your champs rather than "unga me big brain me give draven 6 items den make corner comp ME HUGE BRAEN". Already I've seen people varying up strategy and comps more to deal with hextech. Could the hextech synergy be better/different? Maybe. But this idea isn't nearly as bad for the game that people are making it out to be.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QcoZH9ka,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-08-18T18:05:46.779+0000) > > Oh no, they're interested in it but you have to remember the pro-centric balance approach DOTA has vs. League. > > Several heroes in DOTA have sub-45% win rates. Some heroes such as Pudge sport over 50% winrates with well above 10% pick rate (Hell Pudge has over 40% pick rate). This all links back to how DOTA is balanced for Pros and how the game is designed to cater to the best of the best. Now, pray tell, how would people respond to you if you said "You know we should focus on pro-centric balance and we should get good" or that "Yasuo has a 40% pick rate and a 52% win rate, that's fine." > > Yeah, you'd be screamed at. > > The fact is (positively for some, unfortunately for my opinion) Riot caters greatly to lower-tier players. Despite all the "CATERING TO THE LC$" memes, Riot does go out of their way to help lower ELOs. I earnestly believe if Riot said fuck it, hunker down and strictly cater to the pro scene there could definitely be more champions played and it has been going up in years thanks to better balance changes. However, until they're truly ready to help the pro scene as needed, we're always going to see champs being scrub choices because "we can't have Jimmy John in Bronze 4 upset that he can't play Azir". This just gave me a mental image of the community screaming at Icefrog to buff IO because of low pub winrate. Pretty funny to contemplate.
> [{quoted}](name=Bad Footwear,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QcoZH9ka,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-08-18T18:49:01.177+0000) > > This just gave me a mental image of the community screaming at Icefrog to buff IO because of low pub winrate. Pretty funny to contemplate. Anyone else tired of Pudge? Like it can't JUST be me. 52% winrate, OVER 40% PICK RATE. Honestly this hero is dumb. It's a shame Icefrog only cares about making profits and The International Battle Pa$$. :\
: After less than four days at DotA's TI9, 109/117 (93%) heroes have been picked in the group stages.
> [{quoted}](name=Skraal Naereeis,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QcoZH9ka,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-18T07:36:23.472+0000) > > > Regardless of how you feel about DotA overall, wouldn't it be pretty cool if League was anywhere close to this balanced? Interesting how after all these years, Riot still seems completely disinterested in trying to balance their large champion pool. Oh no, they're interested in it but you have to remember the pro-centric balance approach DOTA has vs. League. Several heroes in DOTA have sub-45% win rates. Some heroes such as Pudge sport over 50% winrates with well above 10% pick rate (Hell Pudge has over 40% pick rate). This all links back to how DOTA is balanced for Pros and how the game is designed to cater to the best of the best. Now, pray tell, how would people respond to you if you said "You know we should focus on pro-centric balance and we should get good" or that "Yasuo has a 40% pick rate and a 52% win rate, that's fine." Yeah, you'd be screamed at. The fact is (positively for some, unfortunately for my opinion) Riot caters greatly to lower-tier players. Despite all the "CATERING TO THE LC$" memes, Riot does go out of their way to help lower ELOs. I earnestly believe if Riot said fuck it, hunker down and strictly cater to the pro scene there could definitely be more champions played and it has been going up in years thanks to better balance changes. However, until they're truly ready to help the pro scene as needed, we're always going to see champs being scrub choices because "we can't have Jimmy John in Bronze 4 upset that he can't play Azir".
: If you think your fights aren't affected by the first 8 seconds then you are blind in addition to being stupid. Aatrox, for example, uses his ability within that time and if he's 2 star with any amount of AP he generally one-shots at least one champ and drops any others to half, if not outright killing 3. The same is true of a lot of champions, and the addition of hextech completely neuters the effectiveness of many units, limiting strategy potential exponentially. As has been mentioned, prior to the addition of hextech most matches on average lasted about 16 seconds.
> [{quoted}](name=Glasletter,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=EYPxRHgo,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-08-18T16:27:10.468+0000) > > If you think your fights aren't affected by the first 8 seconds then you are blind in addition to being stupid. Aatrox, for example, uses his ability within that time and if he's 2 star with any amount of AP he generally one-shots at least one champ and drops any others to half, if not outright killing 3. The same is true of a lot of champions, and the addition of hextech completely neuters the effectiveness of many units, limiting strategy potential exponentially. > > As has been mentioned, prior to the addition of hextech most matches on average lasted about 16 seconds. They're affected, but it's rarely enough to completely swing a fight unless A.) You've got one hyper stacked hypercarry or B.) you're way far behind and items are the crutch keeping you up. And yeah, prior to hextech. Now with hextech they often last 25-30 seconds, almost double what it was. Fact is that hextech rarely affects the game in a meaningful way beyond disabling the one rare hyper-carry-comp someone is running. Most people either dip a _little_ into hextech (Mostly Vi and Jinx) or they don't bother going out of their way to build it at all. It's a neat trait. It's somewhat useful but it's hardly unhealthy nor utterly game warping. It's decent at best.
Cräfty (EUW)
: Here is why the Hextech origin is so unhealthy to the game and a really bad designed trait!
>Spacing. With the random nature of Hextech debuff, you're forced to space out your units in weird ways that greatly decreases the effectiveness of your comp. And since most hextech comps run Brawlers, expect to have to face a blitz as well, which makes positioning even harder and frustrating to plan around. Add to that some Assassins players, here and there, and positioning becomes a nightmare. It's not strategy anymore, it's just unfun and boring to play against. I am denied from playing the game in a very boring and unsatisfying way, and it's not even my fault. That's literally the point of it. You should _not_ ideally be able to get your comp as perfect as you want it in a nice little bubble. Assassins and hextech should accomplish this. The strongest part about hextech isn't the item disable (which I've found to be mediocre) but rather that you force enemies to edit their comp and remove simplistic death balls. This is good for the game: It forces strategy and forces players to consider what their best comp _could_ be rather than just facerolling a corner comp for the umptenth time. You're actually in favor of removing strategy and tactical knowhow. >Debuff duration. 8 seconds... where the average fight lasts for around 12 to 15 sec. It doesn't take a genius to realize that 8 sec is too much time and it's too long of a duration to give to any debuff, let alone a debuff that literally breaks the game. They did the same mistake with Red Buff and Morello. They increased the duration of the burn to 10 sec, thus lowering the damage-per-tick of the debuff, but in the process they increased the amount of time units couldn't heal back up by twice as much as well. It's as if the balance team is full of toddlers who don't know WTF they're doing or something, idk... Fights last way longer than this unless you're running a comp made out of paper. In my games fights usually last 30+ seconds. That 8 seconds at the start of a fight rarely makes a difference, especially with items like FoN, class items or GA. If your fights last 12-15 seconds, it sounds like you're running bad comps oir comps without a dedicated frontline. In which case that's your own fault and you need to reexamine how to fix your positioning or composition. Also you don't get Morello for the damage, you get it for the anti-healing. The damage is just a moderate bonus.
Subdue (NA)
: So... don't do the missions...
> [{quoted}](name=FullMuteAll game,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=esmLTFHR,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-08-17T23:02:20.839+0000) > > Well.. > You could just not waste your time on that ? > It is a stupid manipulation of every game to make you play more. > Just pretend like there is no missions at all. > [{quoted}](name=Subdue,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=esmLTFHR,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-08-17T23:03:44.713+0000) > > So... don't do the missions... Gonna lump these two together: Maybe I want to do the missions but don't like the implementation? Maybe I'd like more map skins for TFT yet think the grind for these missions isn't the best? Maybe Riot could make these missions better overall while not forcing the grind? It's the exact same situation as Eternals: Yes, I like the idea of them. Yes, I'd do them/grind them out if I could. But the implementation is the flaw here, not the idea itself. Hell, I'd love having missions like the Demacia ones in-client now. Instead the grind is much too long. "lol just ignore them" is terrible criticism and completely ignores improving a flawed system by leaving it the way it is rather than improving it for players.
enshine (NA)
: Those missions are for the whales. The longer they spend on the game, the more likely they are to buy lootboxes
> [{quoted}](name=enshine,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=esmLTFHR,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-17T20:30:09.169+0000) > > Those missions are for the whales. The longer they spend on the game, the more likely they are to buy lootboxes Naw, they're just to get people playing like daily missions in WoW. It's not really a whale thing. It would assuredly be a whale thing if I could buy progress to my battle pass like some games do and circumvent progress in favor of my wallet.
: On top of that a bunch of them want you to go for specific types of comps in an RNG based game. You want to complete a mission so either throw the match for beta points or get little progress
> [{quoted}](name=LeafyGreen,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=esmLTFHR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-17T20:14:33.057+0000) > > On top of that a bunch of them want you to go for specific types of comps in an RNG based game. You want to complete a mission so either throw the match for beta points or get little progress I actually don't mind that part _if_ I didn't have "play matches" one. Oh, need to build FoN in one game? Np. I'll throw that game and just move onto the next. But with play to 4-5 or higher, I have to try and keep building. So in the end I rarely get the benefit.
Rioter Comments
Exman33 (NA)
: How did the betapass get worse?
I wish there was more TFT specific things. I'd love either Little Legends, TFT-specific Emotes, Map Skins, hell even special particles for TFT damage (Like I'd dig it if my damage was lightning instead of the little fireballs)
l MrD l (NA)
: Hextechs are too strong...
I've actually had the complete opposite experience: Hextech is almost useless _unless_ someone is running a hardcore single-carry in which case Hextech has the chance to win the game. The fact that it can target almost any unit means that it's very easy to counter them so long as you know one hextech team is out there. In addition, hextech 2(4) is kind of not really worth it unless there's a MASSIVE grouping of item-heavy units. If anything, Hextech has been good for the game. I see way more unique positioning comps now and less emphasis on "unga unga me hold corner me strategist" comps. It's pretty great.
: He has a point, in my opinion. There have been champion releases which definitely **had** the potential to have just as much impact on their home as Sylas, but Riot simply didn't develope the story (yet). Examples: {{champion:164}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:245}} (there are most likely more, these were just coming to my mind first simply because of my own preferences)
> [{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2019-08-17T08:56:01.971+0000) > > He has a point, in my opinion. > > There have been champion releases which definitely **had** the potential to have just as much impact on their home as Sylas, but Riot simply didn't develope the story (yet). > Examples: > {{champion:164}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:245}} (there are most likely more, these were just coming to my mind first simply because of my own preferences) I agree that certain champs can have an impact on their home. However, his argument is that _ANYONE_ can become a world-changing actor when in actuality most champs have either a very personal story or don't have the ability to change the status quo in a meaningful way outside of suddenly being given enormous amounts of power/story importance. {{champion:1}} suddenly finding a world rune and then blowing up all of Noxus probably wouldn't be seen as "omg world changing actor" but "why are you giving this character that has nothing to do with Noxus the lore importance to blow up Noxus"
: honestly he just affected a whole nation. And while that's quite a feat he's not the first to do so. - {{champion:50}} took over noxus and ended the war with ionia sorta. It was started by the previous dude iirc. But he changed the way the country governs largely. - {{champion:7}} pretty much runs the lands noxus is build on from the shadows, and has been doing that shit since morde. - {{champion:27}} "I sold some bottles of chemicals once."(Ionians mad x24) - {{champion:268}} "yeah i'mma need a biggass city to run my country here real quick." - {{champion:13}} "i got this nice as heck stone collection, world might blow up if someone finds it tho" and there's more. all in all plenty champs have affected the world of runeterra as much if not more than Sylas, some by doing alot less like singed, some by doing a ton more like ryze. The only reason they feel less impactful is that they simply haven't gotten the same amount of depth. i think the easiest one of these to compare is ryze actually. We got an incredible animation for ryze, featuring many iconic champions. And yet it was just a fighting montage with some small but important exposure added around the runes. He got a comic and 2 shortstories added to that too. but in the end all these tell you is that world runes are powerfull, and ryze is trying to keep em out of anyone's hands. especially a certain fire boi's hands. Now look at sylas. His own lore doesn't offer that much tbh. He's just some dude in prison and he escapes. We get some exposure on the anti mage system and demacia gets painted as ~~nazi germany~~ a "grey" actor instead of classic good guys. But here comes lux walking by, bringing her comic series along. I'mma admit i haven't gotten to those but from what i understand from boards it's pretty much just a civil war. What exactly happens isn't important. The medium used is. Multiple comic books just to focus on one part of the story, not even the whole country but just one part of it's lore. look at the ashe comics. We knew pretty much nothing about the current freljord, now we know how their damned class/political system works. I don't blame riot for this mind you. They'd be stupid not to make a comic series around lux. She's dummy popular and honestly there's no actual reason to hate her as character. Combine that with the fact that she's related to champs like garen, xin zao, sylas, etc and you got a perfect setup. The marvel comics are an amazing thing for lore. all of em are aside from the jinx one actually, but i already gave up on getting decent lore for my girl. alot o ppl are gonna get mad over this but the next comic series should focus on ezreal. They could expose so much of the world through ezreal exploring it. 1 issue on piltover/zaun, one on shurima, one on freljord, etc... TLDR He's not affected the lore the most, it's just the comics are capable of delivering much more fleshed out lore than our other sources.
> [{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-08-17T14:01:02.901+0000) > > TLDR > He's not affected the lore the most, it's just the comics are capable of delivering much more fleshed out lore than our other sources. The problem there is that almost every story you've mentioned hasn't been expanding upon and building atop the story in place but rather retconning it and/or it's placed in the story well before current events. Singed's story is far removed from the current lore and happened years ago. Azir's entire reveal/Shurima tale was basically a giant rewrite of Shurima's lore. Swain replaced Darkwill but that story is old as fuck considering it's another update of Swain rising to power which we got years ago. etc etc etc. Even Ryze's update just puts out new material about the world without really changing anything about it. Sylas surpasses these champions and stories simply because while he's not the first to enact change in his nation, he _is_ the first to cause large-scale progression with far reaching consequences. The only comparable example is Miss Fortune and burning tides but that ended up with a somewhat "back-to-status-quo" situation because Gangplank is still alive and the rivalry between him and Miss Fortune continues, just with a more even power dynamic. And these do have far reaching ramifications in terms of the world. J4 is now king and stricken with grief. How is that going to affect the world? We know how Swain runs Noxus and we know how Gangplank/MF ran Bilgewater. We have no idea what J4 is going to do now. How are other nations going to react to this? What is going to happen to mages? etc etc. Demacia has changed in a way that cannot be softly retconned without editing the stories of pretty much any central character, even some who aren't here such as Shyvana. TL;DR Main difference between those champs vs. Sylas is that Sylas takes the story and progresses it in a meaningful way in the present. The champs you listed either have had these world-changing events happen in the past or they're part of a retcon that is resetting the status quo rather than making a new status quo.
: If it were not continuation to argue, I would say swain did. He, while mostly dropping scattered pieces here and there, in the union of those pieces dropped some FAT bombs of lore and lore theory, which a big chunk of directly relates to Noxus. - We now know for sure that Marcus Du'Cuteau is dead and that Katarina is on a constant plot to kill swain, which he tolerates for his personal amusement. - Swain confirmed that Kai'sa was Kassadin's lost daughter. - Opened the gateway to the lore behind Ionia's Ancient Magic and the relicts of wars older than history documented, which I damn well hope Riot will further explore in the future. - Revealed that the one behind the Void is potentially one of A-sol's siblings created with the first breath of the virgin Universe. - has revealed the full background behind the war of Noxus and Ionia, which served as a lore-wise humiliation because Ionia didn't win, but Swain ordered the full retreat after he killed Darkwill and established the Triumvirate. - Gave way in forms of a Confession that the truce with Demacia is just a farce and that there is intent to spark the conflict again. - Confirmed that Noxus, at least since his take on the leadership, has had no association with the killing of Vastaya. - Revealed that the Immortal Bastion possesses secrets of powers and Magic older than Mordekaiser's rulership, one of which is the demon that he took into himself. Honestly Swain dropped just as large, if not even larger bombs, but most of them are basically just first steps to other, separate continuations, basically half way entered progression in lore EVERYWHERE, where Sylas took one piece of lore and progressed it fully. Never the less, All lore development has been equally amazing.
> [{quoted}](name=Eternal Torment,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-08-16T23:31:13.122+0000) > > > Honestly Swain dropped just as large, if not even larger bombs, but most of them are basically just first steps to other, separate continuations, basically half way entered progression in lore EVERYWHERE, where Sylas took one piece of lore and progressed it fully. > > Never the less, All lore development has been equally amazing. I'd actually argue Sylas even without the continuation argument, mostly for the fact that Swain's arguments and lore tidbits were rewrites of current Noxus lore. In addition, Sylas makes an actual change in the status-quo after the retcon has already been finished, meaning that Sylas is affecting things that have been established and ready. There's also the fact that most of Swain's tidbits are not so much lore impact as it is expanding on existing things we knew existed: Kai'sa is basically Kass's daughter, Ionia fought Noxus and won, etc etc. Swain didn't really "alter" or progress anything in an impactful way other than shedding a bit more light. Conversely, Sylas not only shined light on Demacia but actively had a part in changing it and the status quo.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-08-16T19:04:57.041+0000) > > ...What does this even mean? > > "He has more impact because Riot wants it to be like that"? > > And no, it is actually pretty special considering this type of lore change has never occurred sans reworking the entire story from the ground up. We've gotten several comics, several short stories and clear progression for all characters that can't be overwritten without basically reworking every single character. ?? god damn nocturne could have more impact than anybody else on lore if Riot cared enough to write for other champions.
> [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-08-16T20:54:22.454+0000) > > ?? god damn nocturne could have more impact than anybody else on lore if Riot cared enough to write for other champions. Not really. Certain champions are essentially people who enact change or serve as major antagonists. The void is a major antagonist. LeBlanc enacts change in Noxus as does Swain. Riot can't just make _anyone_ cause this because certain champions are just not "world changers". Evelynn's story is a personal one. Caitlyn's story is a personal one. etc etc etc. If they DID force these champions to have a city-wide/nation-wide (or even worldwide) impact, it'd read as a drastic retcon and immense change of character. Which is, y'know, bad. Some champs should have small scale stories like Rek'sai defending her territory. Other champs should have world-spanning tales like Ryze hunting down runes.
: He already knew she was a mage as implied in Garen's short story "[The Soldier and the Hag](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/garen-color-story/)" which was released in the Demacian lore update prior to the one that happened when Sylas was released. In that same update they gave us "[For Demacia](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/for-demacia/)" where it is also implied that Garen knows. Lux's mother at the very least already knew that Lux is a mage, evident in "[Flesh and Stone](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/flesh-and-stone/)"(also from that update iirc) where she invites an annuller to the home to "help" with her powers. EDIT: When you say "runs through the whole family" I'm not sure if you meant most of the Crownguards or all of them, because I don't believe Garen is magical. Sylas can detect magic but was [surprised](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/comic/lux/issue-3/9/) when he absorbed magic from his sword. If Garen were magical then Sylas would've seen it as he sees Lux and other mages.
> [{quoted}](name=ShadowGlaive213,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-08-16T19:31:55.922+0000) > > EDIT: > When you say "runs through the whole family" I'm not sure if you meant most of the Crownguards or all of them, because I don't believe Garen is magical. Sylas can detect magic but was [surprised](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/comic/lux/issue-3/9/) when he absorbed magic from his sword. If Garen were magical then Sylas would've seen it as he sees Lux and other mages. I think most of the Crownguard family is indeed mages with most of the non-mages being outsiders who married into the family. For headcanon-theory I think the reason that Sylas can't see the magic Garen has is because Garen is wearing full petricite armor, which absorbs magic and "covers" him. Sylas doesn't see all the city as a giant magical lightbulb so it stands to reason that Petricite could disguise or mask anyone who has magic. This is also seen when Lux drinks petricite juice (The M I N E R A L M I L K) and her "light" vanishes to Sylas.
enshine (NA)
: he didn't get any 3 stars
> [{quoted}](name=enshine,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=pmQxqHhA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-16T18:56:15.655+0000) > > he didn't get any 3 stars 3 other people were also going nobles. Core part of DAC style games: Go comps your enemy isn't going. In FP's case, look at their comp: Brawlers/Void/Phantom/Sorc. NOBODY was running these units except guys eliminated early, meaning they had pick of the litter and could strengthen their comp earlier than the noble player.
Terozu (NA)
: Lux hasn't admitted anything yet though?
> [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-16T19:07:14.204+0000) > > Lux hasn't admitted anything yet though? Well Garen knows that she's a mage, at the very least, and I don't think that was established in lore yet. I'd also assume the Crownguards as a whole actually have magical powers and that it runs through the whole family. Can't confirm it yet but I bet Tianna healed Garen when the surgeon couldn't, which would explain why he went from "Deathbed" to "C'MERE SYLAS RIP AND TEAR"
: Yes he has had more impact. But it's because Riot wants it to be like that, its nothing special.
> [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-16T18:57:20.793+0000) > > Yes he has had more impact. But it's because Riot wants it to be like that, its nothing special. ...What does this even mean? "He has more impact because Riot wants it to be like that"? And no, it is actually pretty special considering this type of lore change has never occurred sans reworking the entire story from the ground up. We've gotten several comics, several short stories and clear progression for all characters that can't be overwritten without basically reworking every single character.
: Impact? Sure. Positive impact? Not so much. It is getting annoying that Riot thinks always doing the same "twist" where the light side is actually evil is somehow adding variety.
> [{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-16T18:41:03.789+0000) > > Positive impact? Not so much. > > It is getting annoying that Riot thinks always doing the same "twist" where the light side is actually evil is somehow adding variety. I disagree wholeheartedly. Demacia pre-updated was "unga unga me good guys me do no wrong" whose sum was basically being so good and pure that they were maybe TOO good. Instead now we have this rather realistic portrayal of a nation that is still a very orderly, clean and uptight place with an underlying problem of anti-magic. These problems logically come to a head with Sylas and lead to both sides having negative consequences. J4 keeps things orderly and was going to loosen the grip on mages but now Sylas has driven him down a darker path. Sylas is fighting for freedom but using absolutely terroristic means to do so. There's no "evil" in Demacia except maybe the mageseekers. There's people who have problems and realistic responses to situations.
enshine (NA)
: member the massive shurima retcon that followed the release of azir ?
> [{quoted}](name=enshine,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qenNYvox,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-16T18:42:57.248+0000) > > member the massive shurima retcon that followed the release of azir ? Said it yourself: A massive retcon, not a story impact/change. Azir was a rewrite while Sylas is a continuation and exploration of pre-established ideas.
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CaptainMårvelous

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