: Everyone suddenly "loves" the old Kayle, meanwhile she is one of the top 4 least played champions.
To be fair, most of Kayle's problems were gameplay related, not design related. * Her skill ceiling was low, most of her abilities being point-and-click and with little expression besides "knowing when to use abilities" * Her kit had a simple play-pattern: Farm up until you can put E on, auto-attack to death. * Extremely powerful kit when numbers allow it because of an instant, point-and-click invincibility for several seconds. * Hasn't been competitively relevant in ages due to balance keeping her down. Nobody really had any complaints about her design though and people did like this super armor angel knight aesthetic. Hell, her base model isn't even THAT bad, although that's due to a glow-up she got early on.
: Yeah this rework is crap. I used to be a professional artist, and this, well it's just lazy. Not to mention she no longer has her full suit of armor which is silly. That armor is part of her identity. Kayle is not some fufu angel. no. She is a fiery angel of vengence and justice! This doesn't say that at all. I would expect her to shoot rainbows and maybe pose in a nudy mag. Why don't you just make the next champ in a bikini? Hell, just make all the champs in bikinis and yoga pants. You know you want to Riot.
> [{quoted}](name=sphinxthelion7,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ztZ0VOkM,comment-id=0070,timestamp=2019-02-19T07:02:20.569+0000) > > Yeah this rework is crap. I used to be a professional artist, and this, well it's just lazy. Not to mention she no longer has her full suit of armor which is silly. That armor is part of her identity. Kayle is not some fufu angel. no. She is a fiery angel of vengence and justice! This doesn't say that at all. I would expect her to shoot rainbows and maybe pose in a nudy mag. Why don't you just make the next champ in a bikini? Hell, just make all the champs in bikinis and yoga pants. You know you want to Riot. I'm gonna hold off on cursing EVERYTHING because it's possible (and maybe even likely considering the teaser) that new Kayle's gameplay will be solid and/or good. But yeah, not digging the new look.
Ifneth (NA)
: You Know You Done Goofed When...
Meh. It's not that it's too sexy. it's that you took a heavy armored character and made her wear a skintight bodysuit with....well, a smidgen or two of "armor". Mostly on the legs and arms.
: Oh give it a REST already. Why is being SOMEWHAT sexy a bad thing? I am a woman, and I LOVE the feminine/muted sex appeal female champs have in this game. Stop complaining for the sake of complaining.
> [{quoted}](name=DNGSkitty RAWR,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ztZ0VOkM,comment-id=002b,timestamp=2019-02-18T20:18:07.905+0000) > > Oh give it a REST already. Why is being SOMEWHAT sexy a bad thing? I am a woman, and I LOVE the feminine/muted sex appeal female champs have in this game. Stop complaining for the sake of complaining. It's not really complaining for the sake of complaining. And again, to reiterate, _something sexy does not make it bad_. Morgana is fine. Hell, she's fucking awesome now. But why does Kayle, a cool fully-armored angel with giant plate armor, suddenly have to lose all that in favor of a skintight body suit? Something being sexy is not the issue here. It's taking a design that worked and turning it into another sexy bodysuit champion.
: > Also the question arises of what happens to unmasked Kayle, as she now unmasks when she....gains levels? Ascends? We can only hope it becomes traditional Kayle. Or maybe she starts without helmet but gets one later on.
> [{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EvO6ElPB,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2019-02-18T19:21:29.385+0000) > > We can only hope it becomes traditional Kayle. Or maybe she starts without helmet but gets one later on. Prime candidate for CTRL + 5
6KEMBE4ORBA (EUNE)
: yeah certainly! If they reduce it to 5% max of the current CS bounties - that would be good. (cuz they wont matter. :D) Sign me in!
> [{quoted}](name=6KEMBE4ORBA,realm=EUNE,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=NpcEMYAl,comment-id=000800000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T19:14:53.526+0000) > > yeah certainly! > > If they reduce it to 5% max of the current CS bounties - that would be good. (cuz they wont matter. :D) > > Sign me in! 25% would probably be better. Even then, being so far ahead would net something around a net-zero and/or an incredibly small 50-100g bounty compared to what it is now. Or just fix it as it is now because 600g off a 50-60 CS lead is pretty absurd. Or just deal with klepto.
Terozu (NA)
: That ending quote with Kayle and Morg.
Agreed. Solid line/dynamic between the two.
: She's only lvl 18
> [{quoted}](name=Giggle Physics,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ztZ0VOkM,comment-id=001d00000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T19:08:09.254+0000) > > She's only lvl 18 **_*~~[Targonoian Pauldrons of the Boar]~~*_**
: She's a WoW character, the chestplate and pants are painted on, don't worry about it
> [{quoted}](name=Giggle Physics,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ztZ0VOkM,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2019-02-18T19:05:03.215+0000) > > She's a WoW character, the chestplate and pants are painted on, don't worry about it Shoulderpads not big enough to be a WoW character.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ztZ0VOkM,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2019-02-18T18:34:49.801+0000) > > I...don't? > > I mean like I pointed out this isn't "HOT FEMALE NO REEEEEEEEE". You associate feminity with hotness only. As if there are no such thing as majestic feminity, stirct feminity, valorous feminity or cunning feminity. If a woman has a curvy shape and you can see the outline of her breasts, you will treat her as sexy character and nothing else. So, a woman has to look "manly" to be taken as anything else i.e. masculine look is inherently superior from your point of view. > Kayle, however, never had femininity as a core part of her design. She was female, yes, but it was never a focal point of her design unless you count for the initial surprise that Kayle is, in fact, a woman ala the Samus Aran example. Morg works because it's taking a sexy design and modernizing her to be more sexy. Kayle is taking a non-sexy design and giving her a big sexy paintjob. People have been giving Kyle shit for "boob armor" even before the rework, although she was a heavenly magical being that never adhered to any mortal standards of safety and the overall design of her armor was meant to show the knight-like idealism and righteousness, but once she has been reworked I hear that she was just like "Samus Aran" (and as if Samus Aran doesn't get shit for being an attractive woman in a skin-tight suit under that armor). Right now there are more means to convey this in her movements, the way she flies and uses her swords.
> [{quoted}](name=BoringLittleF,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ztZ0VOkM,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2019-02-18T18:50:08.927+0000) > > You associate feminity with hotness only. As if there are no such thing as majestic feminity, stirct feminity, valorous feminity or cunning feminity. If a woman has a curvy shape and you can see the outline of her breasts, you will treat her as sexy character and nothing else. So, a woman has to look "manly" to be taken as anything else i.e. masculine look is inherently superior from your point of view. I mean compare the original Kayle armor: https://www.leagueofpapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Classic-Kayle-Splash-Art-Old-league_of_papers.jpg Nothing about this was feminine. You could easily mistake this for a male. I also know that a few people were thrown for a loop when they realized Kayle was actually a woman. It was also pretty practical and heavy armor. Now, that said, let's compare the current splash art. http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141013221114/leagueoflegends/images/7/7f/Kayle_OriginalSkin.jpg More feminine, for sure, but also some practicality. Note that the chest plate has a piece in the center between her breasts so its more uniform throughout and solid. Note that despite there being a "bodysuit" underneath, Kayle is about 80-85% armor. She's got heavy plate. Despite the two designs being very different, they still both sell the fantasy of "Heavy armor angel warrior". https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/533737728005898240/547124528405282836/image0.jpg The current/Reworked Kayle _is_ a sexual design. Her hips are wide. Coloration and design draw your eyes to both her breasts and her hips/thighs. There's zero mistaking this person for a woman. And, as pointed out in OP, when Kayle gains more power she loses armor. There's really nothing majestic, graceful or cunning in her design. Sona is majestic. LeBlanc is cunning. etc etc. Kayle doesn't look like any of these. For a character that was originally an armored angel, she does not sell anyone on the design of being an armored angle. > People have been giving Kyle shit for "boob armor" even before the rework, although she was a heavenly magical being that never adhered to any mortal standards of safety and the overall design of her armor was meant to show the knight-like idealism and righteousness, but once she has been reworked I hear that she was just like "Samus Aran" (and as if Samus Aran doesn't get shit for being an attractive woman in a skin-tight suit under that armor). > > Right now there are more means to convey this in her movements, the way she flies and uses her swords. For sure, there always were, but there weren't nearly as many. Kayle's redeseigned splash art got criticism but she was still Kayle. This rework could have also been a chance to give her some heavier, more fancy knight armor. You could have done a great job of keeping her armor as-is or even further the ideal of giving her heavy, non-feminine armor and (as you say yourself) do a better job of selling who she is through her movements and animations, be they feminine or not. Instead we have a low-armor bodysuit that loses armor the more she fights/grows stronger, which is counterproductive to the narrative trying to be sold here of a badass angel warrior. To sum up the flaw in your argument: People give _Zero Suit Samus_ shit. Nobody gives *Samus* shit. Samus is still awesome and people love her design. Not as many people are a fan of Samus getting rocket high heels and a skintight bodysuit. And again: This is fine for a character who started out as such, like Bayonetta who wears her sexiness on her sleeve and flaunts it. It's not quite as fine for a character who is tough, powerful and doesn't care about being sexy suddenly having big mommy hips.
: I'll admit Kayle does look bare on the armor. Since it's the PBE, we can try to convince Riot to give her more armor plating, just like the time we told Riot to give Aatrox his banner wings (it's a toggle, but still a nice feature).
> [{quoted}](name=Shadowkirby14,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ztZ0VOkM,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-02-18T18:42:35.721+0000) > > I'll admit Kayle does look bare on the armor. Since it's the PBE, we can try to convince Riot to give her more armor plating, just like the time we told Riot to give Aatrox his banner wings (it's a toggle, but still a nice feature). I think that's a bit more difficult to do than expected. Aatrox's changes were pretty minimal compared to what was requested: Slight color tweaks and banner changes. Kayle's changes would likely need to be far more complex to get to a "better" design. She'd need model overhauls with a lot more work put into making it look good and armor-y. Its one of those things RIot could do if they gave Kayle maybe another 1-3 months to be worked on to look GOOD but right now I guess the best we can hope for is that one of her skins better fulfills this idea.
6KEMBE4ORBA (EUNE)
: Whatever. You're keen on presenting obvious bad design + balance decisions in a good light. Won't waste anymore time.
> [{quoted}](name=6KEMBE4ORBA,realm=EUNE,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=NpcEMYAl,comment-id=0008000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T18:30:00.660+0000) > > Whatever. > > You're keen on presenting obvious bad design + balance decisions in a good light. Won't waste anymore time. Well, it's actually a pretty good idea. Just right now it's not implemented well. Hopefully they can iron it out for the future though!
: Why do you hate feminity so much? Kyle has always been feminine under her helmet.
> [{quoted}](name=BoringLittleF,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ztZ0VOkM,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-18T18:26:27.194+0000) > > Why do you hate feminity so much? Kyle has always been feminine under her helmet. I...don't? I mean like I pointed out this isn't "HOT FEMALE NO REEEEEEEEE". There are plenty of females who are fine with being hot as fuck. Morg is one of them. It's why I think Morg's design is awesome. Not only is she more sexy, she looks better overall and that outfit is sexy as fuck. It's a great rework. Kayle, however, never had femininity as a core part of her design. She was female, yes, but it was never a focal point of her design unless you count for the initial surprise that Kayle is, in fact, a woman ala the Samus Aran example. Morg works because it's taking a sexy design and modernizing her to be more sexy. Kayle is taking a non-sexy design and giving her a big sexy paintjob.
Rioter Comments
: Already commented on my disappointment in Kayle’s armor design. But understanding the wing talk made me see, are Morgana’s wings coming out of her ass? Or is that just from watching it on my phone?
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EvO6ElPB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-18T17:36:54.770+0000) > > Already commented on my disappointment in Kayle’s armor design. > > But understanding the wing talk made me see, are Morgana’s wings coming out of her ass? Or is that just from watching it on my phone? Lower Back (Kayle has them as well). More importantly, I agree with you on Kayle's armor change. It was nice to see this Samus-type character with practical armor and an androgynous appearance. She was a unique female design from the old days and a standout of league. While the gameplay will likely be better, I am kind of disappointed they went with the safe option. Also the question arises of what happens to unmasked Kayle, as she now unmasks when she....gains levels? Ascends?
6KEMBE4ORBA (EUNE)
: > While you can get a gold spike for getting a kill, you still have to get the kill. I'm talking only about the stupid CS bounties that are not logical to League's core design. If you can't comprehend or understand why they're such, you're just wasting my time. --- Mage bot existed before that w_ith a downside to it._ Mage bot exists now because it's too efficient and it doesnt have a real downside. Reasons for this: Abundance of gold income, increase of ambient gold gen (which blurs the line between a good and a bad player) and through items + the way more dmg introduced into the game. All bad design/balance choices. Your take of inherently_ "good"_ or "_bad"_ shows your heavy, detrimental conformist mindset and it also reveals you don't know what is (or rather was) League's core design.
> [{quoted}](name=6KEMBE4ORBA,realm=EUNE,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=NpcEMYAl,comment-id=00080000000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T17:02:01.025+0000) > > I'm talking only about the stupid CS bounties that are not logical to League's core design. If you can't comprehend or understand why they're such, you're just wasting my time. > --- > Mage bot existed before that w_ith a downside to it._ > > Mage bot exists now because it's too efficient and it doesnt have a real downside. > Reasons for this: > Abundance of gold income, increase of ambient gold gen (which blurs the line between a good and a bad player) and through items + the way more dmg introduced into the game. > > All bad design/balance choices. > > Your take of inherently_ "good"_ or "_bad"_ shows your heavy, detrimental conformist mindset and it also reveals you don't know what is (or rather was) League's core design. ...Yeah, no, CS bounties make sense. They're absolutely too high right now, yes, but the idea itself isn't a bad one. It's how annoying and fucked up shit like Inting Sion or Proxy Singed get to exist when you don't account for CS: Massive gold income but worth very little for impeding them. DOTA solves this problem by making you lose gold on death. league doesn't so they need another way to punish high deaths but mass farm. Still, as previously stated, it does need to be fixed so it's not quite as absurd. For 30% of a bounty, it feels a lot more like 90%. And yeah, you could go mage bots before. The downside was losing the game. It only is in recent years with the steady nerfs/lower late game power of ADCs that other champions bot lane can flourish. The biggest one being that ADCs were the only class that was good at sieging a turret. Splitpushing, of course, doesn't count as it was more about shoving a lane by yourself and drawing resources to the top. Once mages were able to deal earnest damage to turrets, it was much easier for them to be placed in the bot lane and be a viable alternative to ADCs. Mage bot also isn't the only viable choice, as ADC bot is still the preferred choice and a more viable carry alternative. It's just now that you _can_ have the strategic choice to flex a character like Swain bot lane if you so choose and not lose the game because of it. Your mistake is you assume mages have outright replaced ADCs when in pro play and across all ELOs, ADCs are still the norm. Hell, according to OP.gg, only three non-ADC champions are picked enough to have a presence bot lane: Yasuo, Cassiopeia and Viktor. Cass and Yasuo are 1 and 2 (Albeit with 1% pick rate so they're extremely niche) while Viktor sits at around 49% with a slightly higher pick rate. Everything else? ADCs. While I understand it can be frustrating for new things to emerge and require new thinking and strategy to deal with them, let's not pretend the entire game has flipped on its head. Even with changes like CS bounties, the 1-1-1-2 norm is still the norm. Being able to flex certain things should be seen as an improvement and providing more strategy. After all: For years people complained of the stagnation of the meta. We should be embracing the idea that there are now more avenues to play certain champions.
6KEMBE4ORBA (EUNE)
: It almost points that Riot don't know what they're doing with all these changes in the past few years while fundamentally changing the game and its core mechanics... WHO WOULD KNEW THAT IF YOU FK UP ENOUGH OR LITTLE BY LITTLE WITH THE INITIAL CORE DESIGN OF THE GAME AND ITS MECHANICS, THE RESULT WOULD BE: **ONE BIG FUCK UP?** *sigh* p.s: bounties are not a big deal? good one D :D :D
> [{quoted}](name=6KEMBE4ORBA,realm=EUNE,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=NpcEMYAl,comment-id=000800000001,timestamp=2019-02-18T00:15:23.254+0000) > > It almost points that Riot don't know what they're doing with all these changes in the past few years while fundamentally changing the game and its core mechanics... > > WHO WOULD KNEW THAT IF YOU FK UP ENOUGH OR LITTLE BY LITTLE WITH THE INITIAL CORE DESIGN OF THE GAME AND ITS MECHANICS, THE RESULT WOULD BE: > > **ONE BIG FUCK UP?** > > *sigh* > > p.s: bounties are not a big deal? good one D :D :D It's less so "one big fuck-up" and more so "Constant changes will make different playstyles more/less viable". Taking a mage botlane in Season 3 was game suicide. But due to turret changes, ADC stat changes, certain mage reworks/updates as well as itemization changes, mages can now exist bot lane in certain circumstances. It's not inherently "good" or "bad". It just is allowed to exist now thanks to these changes. Also, bounties aren't a big deal nor the cause of this. While you can get a gold spike for getting a kill, you still have to get the kill. The bigger problem is that Klepto and the Support items (alongside cannon last hitting) allow you to keep pace with gold while last hitting very little, if at all. Removing bounties from CS wouldn't stop this, as the main goal of taking a support item is for the additional wards.
: Malphite is an interesting champion which both players and Rioters love. He has so much uniqueness to his kit it's incomparable classic gameplay against new champions and reworks. Knowing he just got blessed with the amazing re-imagining of his rock-self into a beefy armored jetpack alien mineral hybrid ( with a 'rockin' beard to match. ) in the new Odyssey Universe? Yeah, I expect his rework in 2021; any earlier and he's gonna just be VGU'd like Ezreal.
> [{quoted}](name=Mega Audinoz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzzeKZBg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-15T19:09:04.865+0000) > > Yeah, I expect his rework in 2021; any earlier and he's gonna just be VGU'd like Ezreal. Yeah, extremely unlikely that Malphite's kit remains as it is. He has a very basic, simplistic kit that (while effective when numbers allow it) does not allow for skill expression other than not missing your ult. His ult is so powerful that it drags down the rest of his kit in terms of power budget and frankly, his kit has aged quite poorly save for pure meme montages of full AP malphite roflstomping because he has some fucked AP Ratios. It's also a total mess of a kit. Huge AP Nukes on a tank? AP Builds on an Anti-armor unit? Tank character but with only one hard CC tied to his ult? Malphite certainly needs a rework but to think that he'd get a minor one like Ezreal is pretty far fetched. Malph needs to be reworked from the ground up...but hey. Maybe they'll be able to put his Odyssey Ult where he drags everyone into a wall. Legitimately some of the most fun I had in that mode when you got the hyper buff to dash across the entire map, then to the other side again.
: The item has been balanced for years and the thing that makes it imbalanced is Kleptomancy getting two gold procs for no real reason and Riot deciding to base your bounties on cs One kill becomes super rewarding when the game gives you 300 extra gold just for having less cs
> [{quoted}](name=TwitchInMyPants,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=NpcEMYAl,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-02-16T15:48:15.883+0000) > > The item has been balanced for years and the thing that makes it imbalanced is Kleptomancy getting two gold procs for no real reason and Riot deciding to base your bounties on cs > > One kill becomes super rewarding when the game gives you 300 extra gold just for having less cs While I don't think bounties are a big deal, you also have to account for the cannon minion change. With a huge chunk of gold being in the cannon minion, you can feasibly last hit JUST the cannon and not lose too much gold. Back in the day when every minion worth was more equal, you'd lose out quite a lot of gold.
: Star Guardian Varus by Eraiviolett
Been following your series. it's really cool! Can't wait for Cait but I'm quite biased.
: The "No CS, poke laner only" strategy storyline be like:
Would actually be interesting if this creates a 2-1-2 strategy and a jungler is replaced by a support with smite/summoner's spellbook.
: Hey, I'm one of the ones who submitted an entry in the contest. I used to have my account on EUNE as Giani A7X, but I transferred it to NA as you can see (almost forgot about the contest). Do I have to send you a new email with the new info?
> [{quoted}](name=Giani Georgian,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7EWMAtGj,comment-id=0058,timestamp=2019-02-16T06:19:38.622+0000) > > Hey, I'm one of the ones who submitted an entry in the contest. I used to have my account on EUNE as Giani A7X, but I transferred it to NA as you can see (almost forgot about the contest). Do I have to send you a new email with the new info? It's cool. I'll fix it.
: Candidates - who is "C"?
It's pretty clearly Camille imo. That said, I also think it's a very loose nickname that anyone can "claim" to have for the sake of reputation, title, etc. Especially because Camille does nothing. Take the name of a famous composure and he might track you down to see who is stealing his reputation. Every new "C" is just another barrier between the truth that is Camille and every fake C. I could easily see Camille not only approving of but goading on people to claim they're C for the sake of making her life easier.
: People die and born. Wars start and end. But the Grand Archives of Piltover are forever sealed...
> [{quoted}](name=The Darkened,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7EWMAtGj,comment-id=0057,timestamp=2019-02-15T14:41:16.932+0000) > > People die and born. Wars start and end. But the Grand Archives of Piltover are forever sealed... I get it. I'm still trying to get oit all wrapped up my dude.
wítçh (NA)
: Kayle and Morgana Rework
Probably soon? I'd guess 9.4 but 9.4-9.7 is the most likely dates.
IceMyth (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FoH5L6TF,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2019-02-13T18:26:27.595+0000) > > So the main thing is that if you look at Sylas's stats, for a melee character, it's pretty pitiful. He has around the same armor/mr at level 18 as _Jhin_ does or something. I'd need to dig back in to see specifics but he's got some wack ass growths. > > To compensate for his lack of innate tankiness, he has psuedo-tankiness from a heal and shield which he's supposed to use to mitigate the damage he'd take. He can also go pure tank builds to mitigate this but then he loses damage. I don't think that is the case here. Pyke & Syles are almost unkillable. Syles at some point can 1v5 and still win, and I saw that on steam at high elo. Pyke drop to 1% in few seconds he is back to 60% + health, yea that is fair. Akali had life steal before rework, but RIOT decided lets nerf that + her W (which am happy with the W nerf). Clearly they know what they are doing. Ahri, her Q used to give her movement speed but seems that was so OP so get nerfed. Basically, Riot are out of ideas and their balance team is led by sales and marketing department which impacted by OP champs/unkillable champs...etc until they make enough $$.
> [{quoted}](name=IceMyth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FoH5L6TF,comment-id=000f0001,timestamp=2019-02-14T09:42:44.303+0000) > > I don't think that is the case here. > > Pyke & Syles are almost unkillable. Syles at some point can 1v5 and still win, and I saw that on steam at high elo. Pyke drop to 1% in few seconds he is back to 60% + health, yea that is fair. > > Akali had life steal before rework, but RIOT decided lets nerf that + her W (which am happy with the W nerf). Clearly they know what they are doing. > > Ahri, her Q used to give her movement speed but seems that was so OP so get nerfed. > > Basically, Riot are out of ideas and their balance team is led by sales and marketing department which impacted by OP champs/unkillable champs...etc until they make enough $$. Yeah, no, they're not unkillable and if Sylas is able to 1v5 you are clearly doing something wrong. His entire durability is tied to the first half of a two part skill and the second half is tied to a heal which requires Sylas to dip into a dangerous sub 50% HP. If Sylas is able to 1v5, that likely means you're either woefully underleveled or Sylas is disgustingly fed. If Sylas is healing for a massive amount, that ALSO means he likely went AP. Which still has the problem of his durability outside of heal/shield being terrible. Oh. and that "out of ideas/balance team" argument is awful. Sylas had a 40-something percent winrate on release and he was still getting nerfed. He's hardly op, people just had no idea how to deal with him. Neeko had an acceptable winrate and didn't see much play. Pyke has constantly hovered between a 48-49% winrate, so it's pretty clear people know how to deal with him. Not to mention most of these characters featured crazy new ideas that hadn't been seen in League before. So yeah, I don't think Riot's exactly running out of ideas and balance is subjective. Especially across several different ELOs.
Sukishoo (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R0s46qW7,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-02-13T18:15:57.826+0000) > > Source? Because that looks like an update an ex-rioter was working on before they kiboshed it. That IS a WIP from an ex rioter.
> [{quoted}](name=Sukishoo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R0s46qW7,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-02-14T01:25:52.191+0000) > > That IS a WIP from an ex rioter. Alright. That means that it has likely been kiboshed. IIRC plenty of ex-rioters had tons of possible VUs for champions ranging from Evelynn to Caitlyn. Sorry Mundo fans but this is 100% assured to be something that was scrapped and/or so far gone that it likely won't look like that on release.
Rioter Comments
: Literally the first thing I said is that I know Sylas isn't OP overall. I get that his stats are awful, and that just makes his design even worse in my eyes.
> [{quoted}](name=TotalJerk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FoH5L6TF,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2019-02-13T19:25:03.201+0000) > > Literally the first thing I said is that I know Sylas isn't OP overall. I get that his stats are awful, and that just makes his design even worse in my eyes. ...How does this make the design worse? Sylas sacrifices powerful base stats in favor of a CD-based heal that only gets the big $$$ from hitting under 40% HP. He has a very clear window to use it and while it can be strong, it also puts a very clear marker when he will use it and be ready for it.
: I know Sylas isn't OP overall but what the actual fuck is that healing?
So the main thing is that if you look at Sylas's stats, for a melee character, it's pretty pitiful. He has around the same armor/mr at level 18 as _Jhin_ does or something. I'd need to dig back in to see specifics but he's got some wack ass growths. To compensate for his lack of innate tankiness, he has psuedo-tankiness from a heal and shield which he's supposed to use to mitigate the damage he'd take. He can also go pure tank builds to mitigate this but then he loses damage.
Haziv (EUW)
: After Mordekaiser VGU i hope his pizza feet brother Dr.Mundo will be next in line !
Source? Because that looks like an update an ex-rioter was working on before they kiboshed it.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7EWMAtGj,comment-id=00560001,timestamp=2019-02-10T17:55:08.317+0000) > > Afterwards. I do plan on putting winners up near the front, once they're confirmed. Do you think we could share our works with some of the others to see what they think in the meantime?
> [{quoted}](name=Skaarl H Marx,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7EWMAtGj,comment-id=005600010000,timestamp=2019-02-10T20:21:34.785+0000) > > Do you think we could share our works with some of the others to see what they think in the meantime? Oh absolutely. You always could.
: It's gonna be hard for Riot to learn from their mistakes when this game dies
JJB53 (NA)
: is there anyway we could get the list of the entries to read/look at while we wait on results to be announced? or are they only going to be released afterwards? (no rush just asking)
> [{quoted}](name=JJB53,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7EWMAtGj,comment-id=0056,timestamp=2019-02-10T02:32:43.901+0000) > > is there anyway we could get the list of the entries to read/look at while we wait on results to be announced? or are they only going to be released afterwards? (no rush just asking) Afterwards. I do plan on putting winners up near the front, once they're confirmed.
: so starve them early so they cant reliably tower dive you and they will fall off basically. vs a AD comp as a adc is it wrong to build 1 item thats hp/armor since they are all ad.
> [{quoted}](name=Corrector1,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=j8BtHJZ5,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-08T17:57:18.624+0000) > > so starve them early so they cant reliably tower dive you and they will fall off basically. vs a AD comp as a adc is it wrong to build 1 item thats hp/armor since they are all ad. Essentially yes. Assassins are probably the strongest early-game class in League as they need to snowball and get an advantage. Sometimes yes, they'll be strong, but the best you can do is lose gracefully in those situations. You also don't want to build an HP/Armor item as an adc because your goal is to scale. Early survival items sets your scaling back. If you NEED a survival item, try going GA as your 2nd/3rd item if you get burst and they blow everything to do it. Some ADCs (Mostly Kaisa) can even get away with a Zhonyas. Plus there's also new PD. Assassins ARE frustrating, to be sure, but their biggest flaw is that they scale inversely and as the game goes on (Unless they're OP like Akali used to be or stupidly fed) their job becomes harder and harder as they can't burst you down though teammate intervention and self-survivability.
: how do you counterplay assassins that exists 30 secs ago? besides warding of course. it seems like whenever i get as fortified as i can get (barrier/exhaust having spellbook thats why) they can still 100-0 me. and jhin or cait traps in that area. how is it possible?
> [{quoted}](name=Corrector1,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=j8BtHJZ5,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-08T16:32:16.923+0000) > > how do you counterplay assassins that exists 30 secs ago? besides warding of course. it seems like whenever i get as fortified as i can get (barrier/exhaust having spellbook thats why) they can still 100-0 me. and jhin or cait traps in that area. how is it possible? * Be aware of when they're rotating. (Warding, as you said) * Save major defensive CDs (Also as you said) * Check what angle they'll be coming from and plan escapes accordingly. * Call down help for when they do rotate (Counter-ganks) * Get advantages even if they gank/rotate to your lane. (Such as herald or pushing the lane) * Put the enemy laners in a position where they can't help. (Low mana and/or out of HP) * Retreat and/or back before they can dive. While it is frustrating, if an assassin is able to dive you under tower, kill you and get out? It usually means they either burnt EVERYTHING they have (flash, ignite, ults, etc) or they're woefully overfed. Early game/mid game is also when an assassin is strongest so your best bet should either be to minimize the damage or don't put yourself in that situation. Again, it requires foresight to know when to head back but an assassin wasting time by going bot only to get a little tower damage is much better than an assassin going bot, getting a kill + assist and then getting some tower damage.
: its more like in total nobody likes 100-0 without reaction from fog of war. imagines a jinx ult kills someone at fountain... like that. (which i know that cant happen vs full hp so its a funny.)
> [{quoted}](name=Corrector1,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=j8BtHJZ5,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-08T16:19:20.658+0000) > > its more like in total nobody likes 100-0 without reaction from fog of war. imagines a jinx ult kills someone at fountain... like that. (which i know that cant happen vs full hp so its a funny.) Considering most assassins are sub-par or even garbage outside of low ELO (Save for crazy strong stuff like Akal- Oh. Uh. Pre-patch Akali), apparently not many people have issues with them once they learn the game. But as I'll stand by: The counterplay to assassins is something you should have done 30 seconds to 1 minute ago. Hence why people dislike them. Counterplay exists but it's not apparent until the counterplay time has passed.
: LS Rants About How Midlane is now the Worst Lane and will become slaves to serve ADCs
Quick reference but for those who disagree with LS: Keep in mind his entire patch notes/ideas almost always center around pro play before PUG play. If LS has a major complaint, it's usually about the pro-tier balance of the game. Hence why some things that would be complete meta shifts for PUG play are something he considers garbage for pro play.
: The boards in a nutshell: Assassins are OP bullshit and anti-fun! Marksmen are OP bullshit and too easy! Enchanters are OP bullshit and anti-fun! Tanks are OP bullshit and too easy! Mages are a very distinct and interesting class with lots of counterplay options and as a result need massive buffs and more items to choose from kthxbai.
> [{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=j8BtHJZ5,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-02-08T01:19:31.573+0000) > > The boards in a nutshell: > Assassins are OP bullshit and anti-fun! > Marksmen are OP bullshit and too easy! > Enchanters are OP bullshit and anti-fun! > Tanks are OP bullshit and too easy! > > Mages are a very distinct and interesting class with lots of counterplay options and as a result need massive buffs and more items to choose from kthxbai. It's more like: Assassins are OP bullshit, easy, not fun, loaded with escapes and DUMB. Marksmen are crybabies who always get catered to and make us fall for "Lul ADC 20XX" Enchanters are beautiful and unique characters who have been bullied out of the meta by the evil damage dealers. :( Tanks are god's gift to this world. They are the most high brain, high strategy class that control the flow of the fight through unique rotations designed for each class. By merely saying this my brain has expanded 30%. Mages are a very distinct and interesting class with lots of counterplay options and as a result need massive buffs and more items to choose from kthxbai.
Elohaven (NA)
: ADC Players: *Breathe* Boards:
I'd think this is assassin but then I remembered all assassins who come to boards are hung from the gallows or locked away like Mages in Demacia.
BaWsMaNn (OCE)
: @Narrative team: Why the changes in Jarvan's bio?
Not RIot but I have ideas on this. >If you have extra time and patience, I am interested to know a) if Demacia's king is still elected by a council like said in Jarvan's old lore as it is no longer present and b) how Shyvana has gone from having to keep her identity quiet to every noble in the Demacian court knowing she is a dragon as that is rather interesting considering Demacia's position on magic. For A, I do believe the council/election is still a thing. However, the Lightshield family has done such a good job that they're constantly re-elected. Hence why J3 is probably grooming him so well: Because there's a good chance he has to live up to his father. It also explains why he's so fervent in having J4 study. He wants J4 to be a worthy successor and improvement, just as J2 was for him. This is more conjecture but it does make sense. For B, while Shyvana is half-dragon, Sylas's lore points out that rule-bending is widely accepted by the Demacia elite. I'd also haphazard a guess that trying to call out people for having magic is a good way to get the skeletons in your closet dragged the fuck out into the streets. For the Sylas lore snippit: >He could sense glimmers of hidden power even among the wealthy and prominent… some of whom were the most outspoken decriers of mages. But while the poor were punished for their afflictions, the elite seemed above the law, and this hypocrisy planted the first seeds of doubt in Sylas’ mind. The alternative theory is that while Shyvana is half-dragon, it's seen less as "She's magic" and more so that she's a descendant of a dragon. It's not technically "magic" but rather her genetics/half-dragon lineage that give her the powers. Of course, this raises the different problem of "is it really safe to bring a half dragon to court?"
Moody P (NA)
: ADC players don't seem to grasp the reason they are squishy
To sum up a quote a player once told me when I was arguing that ADCs need to get changed: "I'm not a bot lane player. I'm an ADC player".
: Papercraft skins are awesome!
Agreed. It's one of the more unique and interesting designs Riot has made for a skin line in a while. Honestly I'm just happy to see new skin lines that aren't more robots. (Speaking as someone who likes robot stuff)
: We gonna get new lore every two weeks from now on
Rioter Comments
JJB53 (NA)
: Anything new?
Yeah, still working on it. I'm really sorry about this delay. :(
: I see the Vi changes got scrapped. It did seemed like that would have overtuned her a bit, but I don't play her enough or against her to make that kind of decision.
> [{quoted}](name=Hollow Vestige ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lE7FN6Oe,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-04T18:32:22.900+0000) > > I see the Vi changes got scrapped. It did seemed like that would have overtuned her a bit, but I don't play her enough or against her to make that kind of decision. Probably not scrapped but pushed to another cycle for more testing.
: Is that a JoJo reference? -a drawing I made
Slogg (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MB4EKQEP,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-02T20:08:01.251+0000) > > So the thing is, it "is" random. Random among what you own plus the last two or so free rotations. Which means that you have weighted dice, so to speak, and can frequently get things. > > Don't blame Riot for RNG, because that's not the issue. Blame Riot for not making Random modes **truly** all random. Except, it isn't random. Neither is ARAM for that matter. I usually play a lot of ARAM, and there are STILL champions in my pool I haven't seen rolled in months. Yet, I will get the same champ 2-3 times in a row, and then get that champ again with a reroll. Not to mention the same 10 champs I always see on enemy teams, even though I attribute that to aram accounts. It still gets extremely old. Whatever their RNG generator is clearly isn't working correctly.
> [{quoted}](name=Slogg,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MB4EKQEP,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2019-02-02T23:01:23.485+0000) > > Except, it isn't random. Neither is ARAM for that matter. > > I usually play a lot of ARAM, and there are STILL champions in my pool I haven't seen rolled in months. Yet, I will get the same champ 2-3 times in a row, and then get that champ again with a reroll. Not to mention the same 10 champs I always see on enemy teams, even though I attribute that to aram accounts. It still gets extremely old. > > Whatever their RNG generator is clearly isn't working correctly. So this is tinfoil hat and I can't confirm this but I **THINK** I have an explanation for why this would be the case. I play a lot of ARAM and sometimes other random modes but often, I find that most of the champs I get are the same and/or tradeable with my allies. I assume this is because the game weighs champions who you can trade with your team slightly higher than champs you can't trade. In most situations I find I roll something tradeable while most of the time I roll something untradeable it's pretty rare. This would also explain why you see so many of the same champs: Even if you own everyone, it weighs the 30-60 "ARAM friendly" champs far higher than your other 70-100 unfriendly ARAM champs. Again, can't confirm this but it seems logical.
: > [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MB4EKQEP,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-02T20:08:01.251+0000) > > So the thing is, it "is" random. Random among what you own plus the last two or so free rotations. Which means that you have weighted dice, so to speak, and can frequently get things. > > Don't blame Riot for RNG, because that's not the issue. Blame Riot for not making Random modes **truly** all random. That's the thing I hate about the AR game modes. It feels punishing to own extra champions that I bought for the purpose of trading with teammates in draft games. Probably half the champions I own I haven't played more than 10 games on.
> [{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MB4EKQEP,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-02-02T20:53:42.866+0000) > > That's the thing I hate about the AR game modes. It feels punishing to own extra champions that I bought for the purpose of trading with teammates in draft games. Probably half the champions I own I haven't played more than 10 games on. Agreed
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CaptainMårvelous

Level 151 (NA)
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