: > [{quoted}](name=XXXMurderPenguin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxwIKZN0,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2019-08-27T20:47:24.239+0000) > > Thats because these are NOT Support champs. They are MAIN ROLE Mid Lane Mages and Support Secondary Role. > > They HAVE to have damage else they cant do their MAIN Role. Problem is that like this thread has stated many times is that Mages have been pushed out of Mid lane. lux is a legit support and can be played as one. the lux player base just chooses to see support as just another carry slot. lux has 3 lights out great support abilities. shield ,snare, slow.... she is a support its just that people refused to play her as one.
This. I have been playing lux Support since season 3. She has always been a good support if you actually play her like one. Yet no one does. It has nothing to do with "being pushed out of midlane by evul assassinz."
: The actual reason why mages are more often seen as supports nowadays rather than midlane is more because of the fact that they can't lane anymore under any circumstances against assassins. Mages are still vital to a lot of comps though, while utility supports aren't in this burst meta. So, people managed to understand that replacing supports by mages is way easier than trying to make them work in midlane against assassins who, then again, completely outperforms mages in nearly every aspects except for waveclearing in some occasions. We should focus on the actual problem that is midlane assassins right now and stop nerfing left and right mages who got forced into a role they literally need to be in because they've been pushed away from where they should be. Bring back balance to midlane then recalibrate mages as a whole with an ACTUAL AP itemization rework, then botlane would probably be a much happier place.
this is a myth. Mages are still the best performing champs midlane.
JRobin31 (NA)
: Meh. RIOT shouldn't design champions according to roles such as top, mid, bot, jun, sup. Once upon a time they knew not to do that. It was part of their design philosophy not to dictate META to the players. Those days are gone.
: The issue with mage supports and the creation of overloaded supports like Pyke and Yuumi is that it's a symptom of the larger issue of neglect. Mage supports really started to become super common within the meta after the removal of Sightstone. Before mage supports were generally put in a box where they had to buy Sighstone. Those that didn't would frequently lose against a competent bot lane. For other supports like tanks and enchanters, getting Sightsone was a treat because their kits are based off utility and survivability. But Sightstone made it so that mages could not immediately start building damage like they do now, or at least there was a significant risk doing so. Now there's no risk because Riot removed Sightstone after solo lane pro players started lighting up the map like a Christmas tree. We're stuck with these dumb quests that nobody likes and an item that just isn't worth fully upgrading anymore. They never really came back to address the problem, but it's a trend with Riot. Anytime an item or playstyle becomes powerful for supports, solo laners in professional play abuse it, and Riot nerfs or changes it without thinking what it will do to the support role. After Sightstone changes mage supports became so oppressive to play against. Don't get me wrong, mage supports have been the type of support that has the most problematic history, but now they're so common and what's worse is the current one-shot meta makes them the most beneficial pick. So many champions do way too much damage, are far too forgiving, and are hyper mobile. I know a lot of other support mains that are converting to mage supports precisely because they do so much damage, and the things that are doing an absurd amount of damage only respect damage. They're not going to respect an ADC that just has an enchanter or tank. ADCs in general (minus Kai'sa) are no longer the best late-game champion. Champions that are strong early no longer fall off either. I get why they designed Pyke and Yuumi and why they're so overloaded, but it raises an interesting question about League's direction if all the champion design team is trying to do is paint over the mistakes created by the balance team because lately it sure feels like that's what they're trying to accomplish. They need to actually sit down and analyze where their game is going.
Yuumi isn't even overloaded. they just buffed her on release like Taliyah...multiple times....despite us telling them not to.
Xintium (EUW)
: What follows is my personal opinion on the matter (and a Wall of Text). I will avoid stating "in my humble opinion" (IMHO) at every sentence for brevity. Relatively little of what I have written applies outside of SoloQ. Pyke is the symptom of a bigger underlying problem, which was lurking behind the scenes since around Season 5/6. The main actors of this problem are: 1. Gold-income and aggresion-rewarding; 2. Junglers; 3. Vision-related items (Sightstone vs. wards inside the main support items) 4. Auto-fill (back when getting autofilled was the same as going support unwillingly) 5. Direct and indirect nerfs to enchanters 6. Player Agency and perception of power This is nothing less than Pandora's Box. Let's open it. 1. **Gold-income and aggresion-rewarding**. No surprises here: you can't have Brand/Lux/whatever support without items. An aggressive play-style was also more fun to watch than a "passive" lane (e.g., Soraka), so the slow degrade of these lanes started. Poke-oriented lanes started to emerge as a safer alternative to Kill Lanes, which were often a bit too binary (binary = win hard or lose hard). 2. **Junglers** became part of the equation for several reasons: dragons become really crucial to take early so ganking bot was a good option, most mid-laners (especially assassins) could roam really well, poke-oriented lanes were blurring into Kill-territory (one good Lux Q or Zyra E and it's basically the same as a Blitz Q), botlaners were rarely at 100% hp, abusing botlane, if successful, was a macro-play with no real answer (in most cases), and, later on, tower plating gold. Thus, the infamous "clown-fiesta" was actually a smart move to make. 3. **Vision**. When the map was lit like a Christmas tree, botlane could at least anticipate and prevent such stupidly powerful dives with stupidly-high rewards. So, nerf vision multiple times, until they can't anymore. There was a time in Pro-Play where even the slightest sign of continued aggression was almost immediately responded by TP from both toplaners (this was before the CD nerf to Teleport). 4. **Auto-fill** also comes without surprises. Why bother playing {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:16}} when {{champion:63}} {{champion:99}} , hell even {{champion:90}} (for a certain time), worked ? And also were a lot more effective than the off-meta picks they looked like at first glance. 5. {{item:3504}} this item sealed the deal. It was (rightfully) nerfed and most enchanters were nerfed alongside it. Remember, no one likes 10-15 minutes of farming in botlane. We need action, blood, kills. That's what everybody wanted. Indirectly, this created yet another reason for playing Brand/Lux/... supports. 6. Finally, we arrive to where we stand now, when **Player Agency** is at its minimum (or barely above that). Sure, you can still play Janna perfectly, but one mistake in your ADC positioning, a Jungler gank at the wrong time and... boom! He is dead. You may also die trying desperately to save him, or be rational and at least not give them another free kill (though that may get you flamed by bad players). Now, let's try it with {{champion:555}} . Suppose you play Pyke perfectly. They are all dead. You take gold, also your ADC earns gold. The chances for a successful snowball (if you have a competent jungler and the other lanes aren't getting destroyed) rise dramatically. At the very least, you can say that "I did my job". You may still lose the game, but you still feel that you had more "power" in your hands, more agency. Playing Pyke was rewarded by enemy deaths, an immediate reward. And you get better at killing them as a result. Which feels even better. And the Perception distortion is now online. The enemy support, let's say it was Nami, starts thinking: "wait, I played Nami so good for 90% of the time, poked them good, healed my ADC, etc.... yet one mistake (less than 0.1% of the laning time) led to disaster and now Pyke is killing everyone! Why I never was able to kill anything even if I got fed. You know what? F**k that, Brand/Lux/Pyke/... next game. At least I can kill the enemy carry and make a difference". And the circle is closed. Yes, there are several exceptions to this last point, I am not claiming it is the thought-process of most support mains, by no means I am suggesting that. But it is certainly not unrealistic, especially when we have seen a shift (although for different reasons), including in pro-play, from Janna/Lulu to Pyke/whatever. The shift is real because the underlying motivations are real: burst/assassin-like champions are simply becoming more and more effective at the support's job, which, in the damage meta (or whatever it is called), is simply "kill before you get killed". This was the underlying problem all-along: the support's job got reduced to "kill enemy botlane faster than they can kill you". This is disgusting. A Soraka-Vayne lane goal was just surviving and letting Vayne farm. "Winning lane", in that case, was having good CS and not dying. That's it. Now it doesn't matter, it's just "kill them". So, Soraka got replaced by Brand/Lux/Pyke/etc. (and Vayne got replaced by Kai'Sa, but that's another story). On a final note. I am (was) a support main. Back in the days of S4/early S5, my mains were Sona, Janna and Morgana. I also liked Braum a lot. Now, if I want to play support (which doesn't happen often), I rarely pick something outside of Brand/Lux/Pyke/etc (I started doing so well before they were considered "meta"), or the occasional "old-school" Kill Lanes (Blitz, Leona). {{champion:350}} is the only exception, and will stay so as long as she stays significantly over-tuned. I am deeply unsatisfied with what the "support role" has become over the years (there is no more support role anymore, strictly speaking). I don't know if Pyke was the result of "true" Supports (like Sona, Janna, Nami, ...) not getting recognized for their _awesome_ plays. After all, they are not that flashy as the best montages of Zed/Yasuo/almost-any-champion-really. But I think that, in the old days, Janna (I'm sorry to always use her as an example, but bear with me) was over-tuned precisely because you were putting all your agency inside another player hands. And that's why some players wanted that agency back. And all the rest followed. You may hate {{champion:555}} , but what the true supports (I don't count myself anymore as a "true" support main) endured in these years was far worse than anything Pyke could do. That's why I don't hate him (and also why you shouldn't hate him): I hate what led to him as the "solution" to the problem.
> Yes, there are several exceptions to this last point, I am not claiming it is the thought-process of most support mains, by no means I am suggesting that. But it is certainly not unrealistic, especially when we have seen a shift (although for different reasons), including in pro-play, from Janna/Lulu to Pyke/whatever. The shift is real because the underlying motivations are real: burst/assassin-like champions are simply becoming more and more effective at the support's job, which, in the damage meta (or whatever it is called), is simply "kill before you get killed". > > This was the underlying problem all-along: the support's job got reduced to "kill enemy botlane faster than they can kill you". This is disgusting. A Soraka-Vayne lane goal was just surviving and letting Vayne farm. "Winning lane", in that case, was having good CS and not dying. That's it. Now it doesn't matter, it's just "kill them". So, Soraka got replaced by Brand/Lux/Pyke/etc. (and Vayne got replaced by Kai'Sa, but that's another story). This. This so much. well said.
: Super unpopular opinion: Giving older champs more ways to compete with new champs is better for the game. When everyone's OP or hypermobile, no one is.
when everyone is OP, yes everyone is. The game gets to its current state where everything is so volatile and flip floppy. Game turns to laser tag because shit gets out of control to quickly.
: > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bv8keqbc,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-05T18:32:49.076+0000) > > No, but if it statitically ends up making an entire class better, it by definitio isnt balanced. > > ADC is inherenlty shit in short games unless u make them scale fast, which breaks them. > > Mages become.too powerful too soon when they get such quick and easy access to CDR. are you implying that champions that scale at different points in time makes them broken? is pantheon broken for being insane in lane? is talon broken for being able 1 shot someone at lvl 2? i can only imagine a world where tanks mages bruisers assassins and adcs hit their same power spikes at the same time i can only imagine that day where everyone stops playing league because riot listened to someone complaining that mages scale faster than adcs
> [{quoted}](name=Ornndyr2k19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bv8keqbc,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-05T20:04:07.304+0000) > > are you implying that champions that scale at different points in time makes them broken? No. Learn to read? I'm talking about class brackets here.
: Because buying one of three items is still more diversity than buying one item? Like, the laws of math didn't change overnight, right? Three is more than one?
U misread my post. When i said "1 of them". I meant they all get ththe same one, the one they get bring the one that is currently the best.
: Forgot to add to original post, it drops out if you use a mobility spell
: Again, my point is that they should have the same potential. Champions should never be arguably better at their highest potential than other champs. While it's virtually impossible to make them 100% equal, the goal should be to make them incredibly close. So my point is, skill champs should be such that until you master them, they suck hardcore. Only when mastered should they be viable in ranked. That's not a gimmick. Again, the satisfaction is in the mastery. It's much like anything in life, where expressing skill and mastery is rewarding in and of itself, much like skateboarding or karate, or painting. Most people won't make a living off those things, but many still take pride in being GOOD at them.
I disagree. Because at that point, the champion that is easier to play is strictly better because they require less effort for the same results. Whatsmore is these champions tend to be naturally less fair when doing so.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FEE8yHtI,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-18T16:35:12.418+0000) > > What buff did Kled get? grievous wounds on Q pull 60% reduced healing for 5 seconds
W-why?!? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
: They did not last forever. You’re overlapping all of the forms of the pink ward. For the longest time they were invisible and lasted as long as a regular ward. Later they turned it into the control ward of today. Up until preseason 4 they were stealthed, had 3 hp, and lasted 180 seconds. And they were _not_ cheap, costing 125 gold each.
I was being hyperbolic but given the factthat the new 9nes do last forever, I probs shoulda worded it better. Sorry for the confusion Also, I'm pretty sure they were 100gs
: That's what they did to Soraka. Her main healing used to be just W, powerful but with a decent CD. Now she just sprays mini-heals, so she feels even worse to play and people STILL don't like facing her.
As someone who abused Old Soraka to helpand back and didnt initially have alall that positive a reaction to the rework, I think her being abablabable to spam smaller heals is much more interesting gameplaywise. Its not like her heals are irredeemably small either. It's not really the same thing as what i am talking about.
: Aatrox still is a damage focused melee with high selfheal and a steroid ult, and he most certainly is a duelist that keeps going and going and going If you break it down on such a superficial level, all off the reworks 'kept the core elements of the champion in tact' Actually, Aatrox feels suprisingly close to his pre-rework despite changeing into abillity based from AA-dps. He still has roughtly the same strength and weaknesses and does the same job. Poppy however changed from a hypercarry into a supportive tank. Sure, she still smacks people into walls, but everything else about her changed, especially when it comes to her character which flipped 180°. Eve went from a versatile champ with a mix of dps and burst with many viable builts/playstyles into a full burst onetrick that either kills in one quick rotation or is rather usless with full AP as the only way to go. Sion went from meleecarry or burstmage into a CC tank, quite a differnt playstyle Tarik went from a agressive support with high burst and damage amp for his allies into a nearly full defensive champion, from 3 off and 1.5 def skills into 1off and 3 def skills. It's a massive shift in playstyle. Saying any off those 'kept the core elements of the champion in tact I terms of gameplay' is pretty ignorant, and no one that truely played them befor the rework would say that. Some atleast keep the fantasy some what, like Sion, but in terms of raw gameplay all of those shifted so much that they basically are replacements instead of reworks.
> [{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4TAZvo9K,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010004,timestamp=2019-08-19T12:40:27.231+0000) > > Aatrox still is a damage focused melee with high selfheal and a steroid ult, and he most certainly is a duelist that keeps going and going and going You just lowered the bar solow ot can describe everevery bruiser ever. And lol at Attrox's sustain being high. I often forget he even has sustain anymore. As for his battle longevity, not at all. It doesnt help that fightslast 2 seconds these days, but i general Aatrox lives not by fight8ng but by killing his enemies b4 they can kill him....like everyother bruiser these days... > If you break it down on such a superficial level, all off the reworks 'kept the core elements of the champion in tact' IM being superficial? You co.pletely o.itted everything relevant to aatrox thats makes him aatrox. Aatrox was alean and speedy fightere High damage damage melee wih selfheal and ulti Steriod describes like 80% of top lane. Renekton, Nasus, Trundle, Singed, Olaf, etc That bar is so low Lulu could Taric fulfils ot. > Actually, Aatrox feels suprisingly close to his pre-rework despite changeing into abillity based from AA-dps. He still has roughtly the same strength and weaknesses and does the same job. No he doesn't. At all > Poppy however changed from a hypercarry into a supportive tank. Poppy was always a supportive tank. She just ended up beingplayed as a "hypercarry" because it was allshe was good for after nerfs and powercreep. It's like how everyone plays AP malphite now. She Became a gimmick. >Sure, she still smacks people into walls, but everything else about her changed, especially when it comes to her character which flipped 180°. I think "what the champion actually does" and what their gameplan is is much more important for u to try and spin this like Poppy of all champs is radically different while Aatrox isnt. > Eve went from a versatile champ with a mix of dps and burst with many viable builts/playstyles into a full burst onetrick that either kills in one quick rotation or is rather usless with full AP as the only way to go. Again, Eve was only inthe state she was in b4 the rework because of how terrible washad become. How She plays now and how she builds now ismore in line eith how she originally did before the combination of nerfsand powercreep made her play like bruiser, _which is something she can still do anyway. _ > Sion went from meleecarry or burstmage into a CC tank, quite a differnt playstyle Sion still is a burst ap champ if you build him that way. Again, he was always a CC tank. Again, this is a case of him being funneled into gimmick because of how bad he was. > Tarik went from a agressive support with high burst and damage amp for his allies into a nearly full defensive champion, from 3 off and 1.5 def skills into 1off and 3 def skills. It's a massive shift in playstyle. Okay this onejust seems random. Idk whawhat game u wereplayomgbut Taric has always been a defrnsive warden support. Always. Maybe ubuild him AP for the lols idk. > Saying any off those 'kept the core elements of the champion in tact I terms of gameplay' is pretty ignorant, and no one that truely played them befor the rework would say that. I copletely disagree. It's the opposite. Idwhat motive behind this spin is, but it's honestly a bitinsulting to my intelligence. > Some atleast keep the fantasy some what, like Sion, but in terms of raw gameplay all of those shifted so much that they basically are replacements instead of reworks. No not really. It's one thing to add thingsto a champ to aid their existing gameplay directionof give them something extra to work, such asthe reworks I named Aatrox on the otherhand has completely different gameplay goals and priorities now. I mean shit, hedoesnt even build the same anymore.
Mr Penguin (EUNE)
: Btw, check out Lissandra, Annie, Kennen. Long stuns, AP scaling on AP champions ?
Idk why your compaying a champions Ultimates to a basic spell here, and passives with stack mechanics. Especially since it's also a gap loser.
Mr Penguin (EUNE)
: Then make it a skillshot? Did you read my W changes? It is scaling with max HP, it has more utility added on it.
> [{quoted}](name=Mr Penguin,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fZpZrtgJ,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-08-26T11:58:11.413+0000) > > Then make it a skillshot? Did you read my W changes? It is scaling with max HP, it has more utility added on it. Making it a skillshot would make it terrible. This seems like a weird OCD thing on your part more than anything if
Mr Penguin (EUNE)
: Then make it a skillshot? Did you read my W changes? It is scaling with max HP, it has more utility added on it.
> [{quoted}](name=Mr Penguin,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fZpZrtgJ,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-08-26T11:58:11.413+0000) > > Then make it a skillshot? Did you read my W changes? It is scaling with max HP, it has more utility added on it. Making it a skillshot would make it terrible. This seems like a weird OCD thing on your part more than anything
: Fix the Biggest Probems In League of Legends
: Make Pantheons Empowered Abilities look and FEEL more impactful
Give him 1.5% atk speed per mortal will stack tbh. Either than or 1.5 armor. Maybe make it so every time he fully stacks it, he gets a small shield. Idk lol
: Meta stands for most effective tactics, and that will vary by ELO. Enchanters in general aren't the best pick below Silver. You can't create plays for others if they don't know how to play. It's usually easier to play the mages til you're out of the woods. Enchanters truly shine in a team fight as well, and in low ELO grouping isn't always going to happen. I'll regularly see Bronze games where someone is like 24/8/3 and there's people on the same team that are like 1/5/2. The lower you go, the less kill participation there is. Yuumi was clearly designed by someone who doesn't understand that enchanters do require you to play engaged. It just rarely reflects that in the stats. As an enchanter you are fragile and need to react quickly to incoming threats, especially in this one-shot meta. You're often a high value target on top of that, if not number 1 on the list. Yuumi doesn't require you to be alert almost at all. All she requires is that you have a pulse and a passing interest in the game, and a champion that requires such a small amount of interaction can't be powerful without being broken. This is especially true in higher ELO/pro play. Yuumi was super safe, and instead of requiring her to be more interactive, they nerfed her lane bully potential. It was a nerf she deserved with how safe she was, but not the right choice ultimately. What many of us dislike about Yuumi is not how hard she can poke in lane. I rarely lost against her in lane as Soraka even before the nerfs. The issue was always how safe she was while being able to poke, and the fact that she was never punished for losing lane when _you_ had to work so hard to win the lane against her. She could just hop onto a bruiser or hyper mobile assassin that won their lane and they'd be hard to kill. That's still true, unfortunately, but going against Yuumi in lane is basically a cake walk now. The issue that Yuumi has is that if you're against a competent bot lane, then the game will be over before you get a chance to hop onto a another carry or your ADC that's pretty much in a 2v1 is going to be cranky and tilted.
Eh, I find Yumi just doesnt have the level of utility other Echanters have. She has a great deal of safety, but I feel outside of chase potential, her healing and buffing isnt all that great compared to others. I'm talking prebuffs ofc. Because we all knew what was gonna happen when they hotfix buffed her. Riot never learns.
: If you are not going to balance CDR itemization then balance around it.
Remember when max CDR builds were basically exclusive to support because u would be giving up too much damage in other lanes? I do too. It is absolutely disgusting that Veigar can get 40% CDR with 1 item and a rune without even sacrificing damage. His E is up way more often than it should be and way sooner into the game. This rings true for a lot of champions too.
Mr Penguin (EUNE)
: Pantheon, the God of War/Atreus, the Man of War
Pantheon's W scales with AP necause a point and click AD scaling Stun/gap loser on an AD champ is just asking for problems lol
: ADC Itemization
I actually disagree to an extent. Tailotmaking items to classes one one of the bigger mistakes in the game in hindsight Riot doesnt seem capable of balancing items without making certain items dominant over others when they do it, which u could say the same for b4 they started doing it, but now the end result is 9ff builds basically dont exist anymore outside of a few key champions, so it's a net loss tbh.
: Draven walks into lane with a vamp scepter
Grokmir (NA)
: Honestly I'm fine with almost everything in his kit EXCEPT for his nutty healing and gold generation. I would be delighted if riot just removed his cut mechanic entirely for like one patch just to see what happens. Also it would be nice if ignite could actually kill him. 100% agree his healing should be out of combat.
I'm fine with the cut mechanic in of itself. His healing and Ult execute are the main problems....and lethality scaling..
: pyke. an assasin with stealth. mobility, fast heal IN COMBAT a hook, an execute, slow. stun
And lethality scaling. Dont forget the lethality scaling.... Honestly, his gray health I'd my biggest issue with him. It lasts way too long. His Ultimate is just unfair and breaks every rule of the game. Why does it ignore shields? Why does it kill from 50%?
Xphineas (NA)
: Pyke suggestion.
The fact it ignores shields never made sense to me. It felt like how Irelia had bonus shield damage and aatrox had mutilate. It was blatantly just Riot tracking those things on as a result of the anti-shield circlejerk that was going on at the time. What I want is his Grey Health nerfed. It lasts way too long for the kind of champ he is. Make is fall off sooner. It basically lasts half a minute.
Antenora (EUW)
: That's the intended counterplay to healing champions. Just like Armor Penetration is counterplay to Armor.   Healing reduction is in a fine spot except for Kled. Kled should never have received that buff.
What buff did Kled get?
Djerunk (NA)
: Healing Reduction
Learn to sustain out of combat. Its a benefit healing offers you that armor, MR and Shields dont. So learning to dip in and out if fights is important.
: Instead of fixing the damage meta, they make Garen a bruiser, not a tank anymore.
Garen has never been a tank. Never. Hes always been about dealing damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0BUIuRJc,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-08-17T12:51:12.551+0000) > > E applies on hit effects at 50% damage. > > > Blade of the Ruined King and Titanic Hydra only apply on basic attacks. His E is counted as a basic attack for on-hit items. Weirdly enough, it can't proc PTA.
I think PTA requires unique instances and his E still counts as 1 instead of individual auto attacks.
Eotfofyl (NA)
: New changes are really bad, I really don't want Garen to become another fighter...
Garen has always been a fighter. The heck are u saying lol. Reminds me of how people call Mundo a Tank. NO HE ISNT!
Moody P (NA)
: dielessitude
: Bigger emote wheels
Either that or let us have multiple wheels.
Ralanr (NA)
: Sion, Poppy, Yorick, Evelynn, Taric, etc. A lot of reworks have involved changing so much of the champion that they might be an entirely new champion because they take the original concept and try to rebuild it from the ground up. Very few champions (Warwick, Ezreal, arguably Pantheon) act like more updating a champion's current kit to a modern style.
All of these kept the core elements of the champion in tact in terms of gameplay. Poppy still E's u into walls to whack you with Qs. Yorick still sends ghouls to eat your face off. Still heals from minions, still summons a revenant with ulti and still splitpushes. Evelynn still sneaks around the map permastealthed b4 jumping someone. Taric still heals himself and nearby allies with Q. Still provides ambient armor to teammates with W and still Stuns with E. The only one who was significantly changed was Sion, and even then it was more like them adding so much stuff to his bare bones kit that he came out looking quite different as opposed to them making him a different champion. Aatox tho? He is unrecognizable from his old self outside his ultimate kinda fusing his passive with his old R. His gameplay plan isnt the same at all anymore he isnt a DPS duelist that keeps going and going and going. He is just a big standard generic bruiser now. And I say this as someone who never even liked pre rework Aatrox gameplaywise. Litterally negative bias.
: How does Riot think a veteran Aatrox and Panth main feels about their reworks?
Veteran Panth mains that _arent just mad he isnt braindead anymore with point and click Q_ are ecstatic, his rework is amazing. Veteran Aatrox mains are livid and justifiably so, since he isnt even really the same champion now.
: Having one ability that scales off AS doesn't suddenly make Garen more of an AS champion than Aatrox. The latter DOES benefit from AS, just not as a direct scaling. _Deathbringer Stance's cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds whenever Aatrox hits a champion or large monster with a basic attack..._ If you really want to be like old Aatrox and bash people in the face, you're more than welcome to build Guinsoo's on new Aatrox. The phantom hits will further reduce Deathbringer Stance's CD so you can actually proc it pretty quickly later on. In fact, Aatrox's kit could probably be tweaked slightly to facilitate this...
Yoo this is dope, gonna try this when I get home {{sticker:sg-jinx}}
: Yeah it is very depressing how they take away from people (for no reason) to give things to others no one is asking for. Resulting in less fun and more polarization.
I've been saying Garen's E should scale with attack speed since season 4 lol
: That’s an absolutely valid point. However, it’s worth noting that the winning team would have to spend an incredible amount of gold to accomplish that. Wards were not cheap. And denying vision wasn’t done easily or for free via a trinket. You would need to buy even more expensive pink wards to find and clear enemy wards. The reality is the win more situations really did not change much. The winning team can still use all their wards in the enemy jungle. Now they can also clear the opposing team’s vision for free. They can dominate vision plants and scuttles and get even more vision. Now, the winning team does the same thing they used to do, but for free, and with even less recourse for the losing team. This is just the vision aspect of things. If you include changes to baron, dragon, rift herald, turret plating, and others, it becomes fairly obvious that the game favors the winning team more than ever. 30+ minute comebacks were fairly common until season 4, when trinkets were introduced. Don’t forget that spending all that gold on vision would curb your snowball. You could and would easily spend hundreds if not thousands of gold on vision back then. Vision wars substantially limited how much money you were spending on items. The only issue, which still remains with control wards, was that eventually you are going to get to 6 items and you would not be able to hold more wards, forcing supports to keep a slot open for tons of wards.
Pink wards lasted for ever, u could put as many as you wanted, and they went invisible like regular wards did tho...and they werent that much more expensive either... It was very much a win more scenario
Leetri (EUW)
: That's exactly what happened. The winning team would ward up the entire map and the losing team couldn't even take a step in their own jungle without being ganked.
> [{quoted}](name=Leetri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8fQme1Ni,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-17T21:56:10.780+0000) > > That's exactly what happened. The winning team would ward up the entire map and the losing team couldn't even take a step in their own jungle without being ganked. Yup, and even if they managed to get some wards down, Pink Wards were invisible too so it didnt matter. They effectively got locked out of the game.
Bugog (NA)
: Unless you were steamrolling the enemy bot lane you probably weren't going to beat a 10 minute quest timer.
Velasan (NA)
: The current items are actually weaker for vision as you cannot rush the vision portion. The quest has to be completed first. In the past you could rush straight to your sight stone if you wanted to.
This. It's a system I feel only exists to force players who didnt but the item to get it without actually fixing the system.
Bugog (NA)
: I disagree with supports having more wards. As it is we carry the lions share of warding, but it is suppose to be a team activity. As for the ward timers it wouldn't really matter, since we already use sweeper trinkets and the wards in our support items don't regen over time. Enchanter and tank supports already have some of the lowest ap scaling in the game, but I think removing it completely is going too far. I am all in support of removing CDR for all non-support items, and being able to cast more spells that are less potent. I floated the idea a while back, but all the top laners threw a hissy fit because their build requires 40% cdr and if they didn't get 20% from black cleaver it would be the end of days. Still think this is the one stat that can be support items specific, and the game would be better for it.
>I am all in support of removing CDR for all non-support items, and being able to cast more spells that are less potent. This. So much. Back in the day, that was the cool thing about playing support. You traded damage but got more uptime than other roles. But Riot caved and slapped tons of CDR on every class because they botched and moaned... The state of balance durto CDR creep alone is justification for nerfing it on other classes tbqh. Been saying the same thing ever since the Mage update. Veigar should _not_ be casting his E every 5 seconds while still having maximum damage gains from items lol. I dont think it should be removed from all non support items all together, but the CDR freebie train needs to stop. There should be a tradeoff as opposed.to the 40% cap being an expectation.
Emo Twink (OCE)
: I honestly just miss the old support quest rewards, relic shield's shield, frost queens movespeed on proc... They were so nice.
This. So much. They made it feel so satisfying to play support and play it well. Now it's just back to being a babysitter until u get the glorious reward of being able to have _permission_ ward again! Glue gee wilkes! It is so much less satisfying than the Haste, shield and spoils from the old Support Quests....
: The amount of forced positivity in this post is cringy
It really is. It's actually insulting tbh. How stupid do they think we are?
: Does anyone else feel like this new cash-grab scheme is a preemptive maneuver, anticipating the US legal ban on loot boxes as a form a gambling?
It all makes sense now
: "We won't make video about rework champion " What you mean is we YOU are too lazy to actually work.
Wait...ur kidding me. They are actually removing champion spotlights now? What?
: Can Armor actually mean something again?
But then how are the ADCs supposed to melt u in 2 seconds?
: Agreed, once people (including me) realize that you basically have to get an empowered Q off whenever you can afford it after maybe the first strike to get your keystone (Conq or PTA) triggered with your W (which also sets your Q up to be empowered in two autos) and internalize it, the damage gets gross. EDIT: Especially since according to the Wiki his E does like, little more than an auto attack in damage.
But it stacks BC and that's dope!
: They reworked a champion that didn't need a rework. It was a perfectly fine champion.
> [{quoted}](name=CallMeAxel123,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8lMownwT,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-08-16T09:38:29.549+0000) > > They reworked a champion that didn't need a rework. It was a perfectly fine champion. I am a huge Pantheon fan. Been playing him since season 3. You couldnt be more wrong.
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ChaddyFantome

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