: > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=000b0004,timestamp=2018-04-21T03:54:04.281+0000) > > _Pressing R on your Ally when they die and bringing them back to full HP is hard, > As is Pressing W on your ally whenever W is up for free heals and damage. Im sure._ > {{sticker:sg-lulu}} Sorry you gotta time it because using it too soon will render your ult useless. While some others if you use your ult too soon, you'd still get away.
> [{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=000b00040000,timestamp=2018-04-21T04:09:21.125+0000) > > Sorry you gotta time it because using it too soon will render your ult useless. ignoring how it isn't that hard to time, especially in_ league of damagez_, using it too soon is effectively making your ADC invincible for 5 seconds since everyone will hold off on killing them. Thats hella powerful in of itself. Did i mention he has a point and Click 2.5 second 99% slow? shit is over 3 times more potent than {{summoner:3}}. > While some others if you use your ult too soon, you'd still get away. ...you mean mean like Zilean?
: AP Sona deals less damage than a Caitlyn in late game, colour me suprised. Next you gonna tell me the Lee sin fell off a fucking cliff and died once late game happened or that the Poppy was rather tanky compared to the Velkoz.
> [{quoted}](name=no to toxic,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XAUZRzlw,comment-id=000a0000000000010001,timestamp=2018-04-19T07:02:54.237+0000) > > AP Sona deals less damage than a Caitlyn in late game, colour me suprised. Next you gonna tell me the Lee sin fell off a fucking cliff and died once late game happened or that the Poppy was rather tanky compared to the Velkoz. Looking like Jax the way you dodging his Point there, hashinshin.
: If you an Ap user prepare to adjust to your new build
That's basically what my {{champion:4}} build has been all season anyway. {{sticker:sg-lulu}}
KoKoboto (NA)
: Err doesn't change much imo. Just means that she won't have access to passive at times. Most of these are "just play the game how you already would and you'll get stuff". Doesn't actually change gameplay.
> [{quoted}](name=KoKoboto,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ExK2re8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-21T03:50:33.734+0000) > > Err doesn't change much imo. It changes _enough_, imo, which i think was TC's goal. I approve personally.
Theorex (NA)
: Guys, I know this is a weird way to do things but hear me out.
> Just like ADC's did back in ADC's in 2017 lul. Except ADCs weren't even weak back then.
: > [{quoted}](name=Glilab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2018-04-11T09:12:45.428+0000) > > ah yes, lets just remove all these items, give even LESS variety of support items, and watch all support mains cry. amazing idea {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} New ones with more skill expression and windows of power (and counterplay) can be added.
> [{quoted}](name=ExternalLink,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2018-04-11T10:26:31.409+0000) > > New ones with more skill expression and windows of power (and counterplay) can be added. So Supports should just not be allowed to build stats, like every other role now? um.. Why?
Acheron16 (EUW)
: I don't understand why support items are so cheap, yet so powerful. I understand that support gold income is more unreliable, but their items are easily 1000 gold cheaper than common items while still being insanely cost efficient for their price.
> [{quoted}](name=Acheron16,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-04-10T15:07:57.983+0000) > > I don't understand why support items are so cheap, yet so powerful. > > I understand that support gold income is more unreliable, but their items are easily 1000 gold cheaper than common items while still being insanely cost efficient for their price. Support items HAVE to be cheap or else supports would never get to buy them Since supports get less gold than everyone else.
: {{champion:432}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:267}} You have to be good at the champ and have supporting knowledge, can dish out reasonable amounts of damage and utility depending on builds, and even if you're good, you still have weaknesses that the enemy can find ways to play around.
> [{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-04-09T19:10:33.820+0000) > > {{champion:432}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:267}} > > You have to be good at the champ and have supporting knowledge, can dish out reasonable amounts of damage and utility depending on builds, and even if you're good, you still have weaknesses that the enemy can find ways to play around. _Pressing R on your Ally when they die and bringing them back to full HP is hard, As is Pressing W on your ally whenever W is up for free heals and damage. Im sure._ {{sticker:sg-lulu}}
Mimr (EUW)
: Those who don't completely cockblock divers, skirmishers and assassins from doing their job. A big part of the current support problem is their itemization that is completely busted at the moment (which was done by Riot in an attempt to make the class more attractive to play... so far the only thing it's achieved is a completely bot-lane centric meta for over a year already).
> [{quoted}](name=Mimr,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-04-09T21:26:49.597+0000) > > Those who don't completely cockblock divers, skirmishers and assassins from doing their job. So, none then? Sounds about right to me.
: > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=00240000,timestamp=2018-04-10T21:18:46.949+0000) > > Nami only doesn't get bitched about because people are too busy bitching about others. > In reality, nami is probably the biggest Generalist on the support roster. She feels good to play against and with.
Auto losing trades to her W feels good?
: > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T03:11:22.511+0000) > > Except this is strictly false. > All one needs to do is actually look at the stats and numbers. Except... it's really not? Take a look at Brand's support build, for example, and you'll see that, with perhaps the exception of his vision item, his entire build is full AP. The same goes for Zilean and Zyra. What exactly were you looking at? > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T03:11:22.511+0000) > > Mid Laners are being played support because of the influx in gold. > Your reasoning doesn't make much sense. ... when did I say otherwise? Indeed, mages are being played in bot lane thanks to higher income. You seem to think this is an inherently bad thing, which is perhaps the part here that doesn't make much sense.
> [{quoted}](name=Teridax68,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T03:19:59.047+0000) > > Except... it's really not? Take a look at Brand's support build, for example, and you'll see that, with perhaps the exception of his vision item, his entire build is full AP. The same goes for Zilean and Zyra. What exactly were you looking at? > > ... when did I say otherwise? Indeed, mages are being played in bot lane thanks to higher income. You seem to think this is an inherently bad thing, which is perhaps the part here that doesn't make much sense. Well, ignoring the fact that their core item, {{item:3116}} is only 2600, which is comparable with most Support itemisation in terms of price, that's exactly my point. These characters are already building full AP despite these items being more expensive, and can compete in terms of viability with actual supports. Why is it then would you seem it okay/normal/necessary to inflate the normal support item costs? All that would do is phase them out all together. Enchanters aren't even the strongest supports right now, they are the weakest, with tank and Mage supports leading the pack. > ... when did I say otherwise? Indeed, mages are being played in bot lane thanks to higher income. You seem to think this is an inherently bad thing, which is perhaps the part here that doesn't make much sense. To an extend it is, not because they shouldn't see play in the lane, but because they can and will easily phase them out of the lane. The support role by its very nature and design is centered around maximising efficiency with the lowest income influx. That's why the role exists to begin with. If The support role is making money competitive with Solo lanes, or at least enough that it is able to sustain threats as potent than solo lanes, then actually using a solo lane for them is redundant and riskier, since supports typically have the safest and most automated forms of income, This has happened before tons of times. Supports get phased out by mages that just build damage. The issue isn't that i don't think these champs have a place bot lane at all, but that the option can and should come with its own set of tradeoffs, and in the case of Mage supports, its the lower income, making it take longer for them to come online than if they were a solo laner. If you raise regular supports item costs, all that will happen is the value of having a regular support over just a discount mid becomes non-existent, as has happened in the past.
Ultîma (NA)
: Wouldn't that be indicative of a need for Marksmen to be more differentiated from one-another though? If a huge subset of champions don't carry enough differences between them to be effectively categorized into, say, Slayers vs. Snipers, doesn't that mean that ADCs don't have meaningful niches between them beyond "scales hard and kills things through AAs"? I find that surprising considering the existence of {{champion:22}} and {{champion:202}} vs {{champion:67}} and {{champion:145}}. Furthermore, isn't the issue of ADCs having 2 or 3 super dominant picks at any given time sort of because they aren't distinct enough from one-another? I feel like, if anything, Riot should be actively looking into this issue and make Marksmen more diverse overall.
> [{quoted}](name=Ultîma,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=yWEr6aRN,comment-id=003200000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T19:31:44.938+0000) > > Wouldn't that be indicative of a need for Marksmen to be more differentiated from one-another though? If a huge subset of champions don't carry enough differences between them to be effectively categorized into, say, Slayers vs. Snipers, doesn't that mean that ADCs don't have meaningful niches between them beyond "scales hard and kills things through AAs"? > > I find that surprising considering the existence of {{champion:22}} and {{champion:202}} vs {{champion:67}} and {{champion:145}}. > > Furthermore, isn't the issue of ADCs having 2 or 3 super dominant picks at any given time sort of because they aren't distinct enough from one-another? I feel like, if anything, Riot should be actively looking into this issue and make Marksmen more diverse overall. Agreed. I'd argue we are already kind of on our way there too. We have stuff like: {{champion:22}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:202}} with utility {{champion:145}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:236}} as Duelists {{champion:104}} {{champion:6}} (they both kinda exist on opposite sides of a single dichotomy imo) as your more Burly ranged damage dealers. {{champion:21}} {{champion:15}} who are more AoE and teamfight oriented. etc etc. These diliniations aren't as clear as other classes for sure, but i wouldn't say those don't, let alone shouldn't exist, because they very much should and do.
: > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T01:09:42.269+0000) > > I'm not a fan if simply making their items more expensive as all that would do is phase them out in favor of Mage supports like Brand and Annie who just Build like a discount midlaner. Making Support items more expensive won't solve anything. I think we're already seeing many supports operate at an income level comparable to mid laners, or at least at a high enough income for mage supports to go full AP, yet enchanters are still as strong as ever, so I'm not sure that would really lead to that kind of problem.
> [{quoted}](name=Teridax68,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-21T01:59:46.830+0000) > > I think we're already seeing many supports operate at an income level comparable to mid laners, or at least at a high enough income for mage supports to go full AP, yet enchanters are still as strong as ever, so I'm not sure that would really lead to that kind of problem. Except this is strictly false. All one needs to do is actually look at the stats and numbers. Mid Laners are being played support because of the influx in gold. Your reasoning doesn't make much sense.
: Ryze work on PBE
You'll have to pardon my rudeness, for the childish laughter. But hey let's give ti another whirl. >Looks at W. Wait, you are ACTUALLY changing his W? I don't know if these are the bets changes, but the fact that you are willing to look at the spell finally is a beautiful start. At least on paper, the idea behind the changes seem to be in the right places. Maybe Ryze wont need 4 more reworks after all. Good on you, Rito.
: Isn't like 90% of player hate assassin, and mage isn't "one class" but multiple class (battlemage, burstmage etc...). Assassin are unhealthy for the game and I'm tired of seeing that AD hegemony.
> [{quoted}](name=MrFramboise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2018-04-19T19:37:10.419+0000) > > Isn't like 90% of player hate assassin, and mage isn't "one class" but multiple class (battlemage, burstmage etc...). Assassin are unhealthy for the game and I'm tired of seeing that AD hegemony. So characters that have to dive in to try and pick you off, putting themselves at inherent risk is unhealthy, but champs that can just stay far back and shoot spells at you until their 1 CC spell hits and then 100-0 from 1K range is perfectly fine? You wot mate?
: The one fucking item I find completely bullshit in this game is Hexdrinker. Like wow, ok... plz make it so mages legit are negated any and ALL damage... but be forced to build zhonyas ASAP.
> [{quoted}](name=50CaliberHecate,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=002c,timestamp=2018-04-19T23:56:54.312+0000) > > The one fucking item I find completely bullshit in this game is Hexdrinker. Like wow, ok... plz make it so mages legit are negated any and ALL damage... but be forced to build zhonyas ASAP. tired of people pretending a shield is the equivalent of blocking all damage like Zhonyas. Please stop.
: I actually understand why riot wants to do this, and I do support it to an extent. My problem is that this is being updated at the wrong time. They already told us ideas they had to reduce marksmen’s dominance in the game, but we have to wait a while longer to get them. Marksmen are the main problem, so people want it to be solved as soon as possible. If this happened later on after the mid season, then maybe people would be more accepting of it.
> [{quoted}](name=Mandalorian 117,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=002e,timestamp=2018-04-20T01:28:14.068+0000) > > I actually understand why riot wants to do this, and I do support it to an extent. My problem is that this is being updated at the wrong time. They already told us ideas they had to reduce marksmen’s dominance in the game, but we have to wait a while longer to get them. Marksmen are the main problem, so people want it to be solved as soon as possible. If this happened later on after the mid season, then maybe people would be more accepting of it. yea, i kinda see your point tbh.
: Malz is the biggest offender of from his rework, and the only crime he committed was matching up well vs Zed during the Zed Meta. Bring back original Malz.
> [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qxj6jLbL,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2018-04-20T20:33:08.164+0000) > > Malz is the biggest offender of from his rework, and the only crime he committed was matching up well vs Zed during the Zed Meta. Bring back original Malz. The only real sin of Malz imo is his New Passive, the one thing they refuse to touch.
Risen29 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Masala Chai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qxj6jLbL,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-19T16:55:19.695+0000) > > Where Archangel's (or to a great extent, Tear) becomes a mandatory buy for mages and some supports such as Sona or Nami, similar to how Morellonomicon was a mandatory buy on nearly every AP midlaner barring more obvious exceptions, such as Katarina, and Vlad. > > This would effectively negate any possibility that Hextech GLP or Luden's could vie for top tier since Archangel's would be the only mana item that would have enough mana to adequately support a poke based champion (the niche designed for those champs), and the same to apply for GLP for certain control mages. > > So this now leads us to the same old Morellonomicon to whatever AP item your champion needs. You're wrong, because mana use to be more limited but archangels was rarely built in that time. Because it didn't use to have any CDR. Archangels is only the go-to item because it gives mages the trinity of stats they want: AP, CDR, and mana. Take away the CDR if you don't want people buying archangels all the time. Of course then they'll just all buy Ludens. Luden's didn't use to have CDR either. Before that it was Morello, for the same reason. AP/CDR/Mana. No matter what item it is, if it has those three stats in abundance it's always going to be the go-to mage item. So, limited mana is never the problem with the design. The problem is with overloaded items that do everything you want in large quantity, so you aren't forced to make real choices between AP, CDR, or Mana itemization.
: Hextech GLP is actually a good support item. Amazing stats and active. Why does no one build it on anyone?
> [{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qxj6jLbL,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-04-20T03:27:45.075+0000) > > Hextech GLP is actually a good support item. Amazing stats and active. Why does no one build it on anyone? As a support player, too expensive, and its stats don't compliment typical support builds. I'd opt for ti as a last item tho.
Thilmer (EUW)
: This is already happening. Who buys Ludden's as first ítem? It's expensive and clearly worse that Archangel in terms of mana sustain, and you want to get mana sustain early if you are a mage. This has been a problem since Riot transformed {{item:3174}} into a support ítem. Mages don't have options in terms of mana sustain, there is always one compulsory ítem for that.
> [{quoted}](name=Thilmer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qxj6jLbL,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-04-20T14:06:43.781+0000) > > This is already happening. > > Who buys Ludden's as first ítem? It's expensive and clearly worse that Archangel in terms of mana sustain, and you want to get mana sustain early if you are a mage. > > This has been a problem since Riot transformed {{item:3174}} into a support ítem. Mages don't have options in terms of mana sustain, there is always one compulsory ítem for that. to be fair, Grail being a midlaner item was also the dominant item at the time. It was phased out for this very reason , and then morrelo took its place.
: Let me follow up your question: Who do you put bot lane? Can't be melee because supports.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GwMydn83,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-04-19T23:13:11.161+0000) > > Let me follow up your question: > > Who do you put bot lane? > > Can't be melee because supports. Support as a position already has multiple picks from tanks, enchanters, mages and even kill lanes.
ChuShoe (NA)
: I don't even think mages were more prominent than assassins because they were broken. I think it's because bot lane is in a state right now where assassins can't even do their jobs to the fullest extent.
> [{quoted}](name=ChuShoe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GwMydn83,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-04-20T05:48:44.243+0000) > > I don't even think mages were more prominent than assassins because they were broken. I think it's because bot lane is in a state right now where assassins can't even do their jobs to the fullest extent. This. It has nothing to do with midlane itself.
IainG10 (EUW)
: Usually we want an AP in Mid because an ideal comp has a Carry of each type, so the enemy cannot stack huge amounts of one resist and still be OK. If AD is the only viable carry type in bot, then mid pretty much HAS to be AP to bring the variety; I'm fine with an AD mid if the bot carry is AP, or for that matter if my team has an APC jungler like {{champion:131}} / {{champion:9}} / {{champion:28}}
> [{quoted}](name=IainG10,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gj9BpLHd,comment-id=0001000400000002,timestamp=2018-04-20T19:09:05.320+0000) > > If AD is the only viable carry type in bot, then mid pretty much HAS to be AP to bring the variety As a {{champion:91}} player since Season 3, this speaks to my very soul.
remakoro (EUNE)
: Even IF people didnt want them anywhere including bot (which isnt the case). Whats the problem about it? What makes ADC so special that you can kick any other class out of anywhere including out of meta entirely. but cant do the same with ADC? (not like anyone wants to) Its just the way you ask makes one think that RIOT made entire game for ADC and if someone were to start the game without one everything would collapse.
> [{quoted}](name=remakoro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gj9BpLHd,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010002,timestamp=2018-04-20T10:28:10.102+0000) > > Even IF people didnt want them anywhere including bot (which isnt the case). Whats the problem about it? What makes ADC so special that you can kick any other class out of anywhere including out of meta entirely. but cant do the same with ADC? (not like anyone wants to) > Its just the way you ask makes one think that RIOT made entire game for ADC and if someone were to start the game without one everything would collapse. Ranged Resources damage {{item:3094}}
: ADCs are not going bot because they are so excellent there. Rather, ADCs go bot **into the duo lane** because they are the least negatively affected in their performance by having to share XP. Which is why I can't really see Riot opening up botlane efficiently with their projected midseason changes. By the time the dust has settled (meaning, on Summor playoffs patch), I highly doubt that we are going to see more than 1-2 regular non-ADC bot laners in either pro or solo queue. And I bet on one of them being {{champion:45}} , since he has a rather XP-independent kit for a mage.
> [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gj9BpLHd,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-04-20T05:55:02.935+0000) > > ADCs are not going bot because they are so excellent there. Rather, ADCs go bot **into the duo lane** because they are the least negatively affected in their performance by having to share XP. > > Which is why I can't really see Riot opening up botlane efficiently with their projected midseason changes. By the time the dust has settled (meaning, on Summor playoffs patch), I highly doubt that we are going to see more than 1-2 regular non-ADC bot laners in either pro or solo queue. And I bet on one of them being {{champion:45}} , since he has a rather XP-independent kit for a mage. That is just one of the many factors. Others include Tower fortification and the presence of Dragon both being botlane. Before Tower fortification was put in place, the presence of Rift Herald was enough to create a lane swap meta where ADC + Support would go Top instead against the toplaner for free. The reason this doesn't happen anymore is because ADC's are the best at taking objectives and First tower gold is too important to give up.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Ziggs bot was a thing even in higher ELOs, and ziggs APC has been and still can be a strong pick. The ADCs job is to kill towers and secure objectives. Thats it. If you can get your physical damage elsewhere, you can put ziggs bot perfectly fine, and he is viable, because he is built to do an ADCs job.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gj9BpLHd,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T21:38:09.306+0000) > > Ziggs bot was a thing even in higher ELOs, and ziggs APC has been and still can be a strong pick. The ADCs job is to kill towers and secure objectives. Thats it. If you can get your physical damage elsewhere, you can put ziggs bot perfectly fine, and he is viable, because he is built to do an ADCs job. This. Ziggs was even seen in Pro play as a botlane pick.
: This is fair, the new runes have also allowed supports to go for build paths they previously couldn't really access, namely by adding a lot more damage to the mix. I also agree that Season 4 isn't a perfect comparison to the current situation, because the game was very different back then, as was the pacing and balancing of bot lane (early sustain was a lot higher at the time, for example). Because of this, there is very likely more than just one avenue to explore when tackling the balance of supports: looking into certain runes like the ones you mentioned, plus runes like Manaflow Band, Magical Footwear, Scorch, Cosmic Insight, Arcane Comet, and so on (there's this common rune setup that's practically identical on many of the most popular enchanters around right now), and specifically focusing on having more damage-oriented runes provide less baseline damage and more scaling, could be one way of toning down the state of poke in bot lane, while making those runes more palatable on solo laners (Comet's fine on most champions though as is, imo). With that said, if the issue with supports is specifically with the way they spike too quickly with items, then I feel it's inevitable that support itemization is going to require some changes as well, whether it would be increasing the cost of support builds, nerfing the power of their items, at least when purchased early, lowering the baseline power of supports in exchange for more stat scaling, or toning down the role's entire income (or some combination of these).
> [{quoted}](name=Teridax68,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-04-10T23:58:48.894+0000) > > This is fair, the new runes have also allowed supports to go for build paths they previously couldn't really access, namely by adding a lot more damage to the mix. I also agree that Season 4 isn't a perfect comparison to the current situation, because the game was very different back then, as was the pacing and balancing of bot lane (early sustain was a lot higher at the time, for example). Because of this, there is very likely more than just one avenue to explore when tackling the balance of supports: looking into certain runes like the ones you mentioned, plus runes like Manaflow Band, Magical Footwear, Scorch, Cosmic Insight, Arcane Comet, and so on (there's this common rune setup that's practically identical on many of the most popular enchanters around right now), and specifically focusing on having more damage-oriented runes provide less baseline damage and more scaling, could be one way of toning down the state of poke in bot lane, while making those runes more palatable on solo laners (Comet's fine on most champions though as is, imo). With that said, if the issue with supports is specifically with the way they spike too quickly with items, then I feel it's inevitable that support itemization is going to require some changes as well, whether it would be increasing the cost of support builds, nerfing the power of their items, at least when purchased early, lowering the baseline power of supports in exchange for more stat scaling, or toning down the role's entire income (or some combination of these). Income seems like a good place to look after runes, as supports obtained a lot of free gold and and effective gold they didn't have previously with the integration of Bandit into the income items (which iirc was already removed) among other things and the removal of sightstone making them 800g up. Future's market is also notably effective on them do to the low cost of items along with their low income, allowing them to somewhat compensate for said low income more than most imo. I'm not a fan if simply making their items more expensive as all that would do is phase them out in favor of Mage supports like Brand and Annie who just Build like a discount midlaner. Making Support items more expensive won't solve anything. Personally i'd rather just see Sightstone and the old eye items come back, but assuming Riot refuses to do this, Gold income on Support items is gonna have to be toned down earlier into the game. Summon Aery honestly needs to just have its Shield (base and scaling) looked at and and Base damage reduced in favor of scaling. Imo, one of the biggest mistakes Riot made was the basestat compensations they did for champions across the board, since they feel necessary when trees give champions some base stat bonuses already. It is imho the main cause of the bulk of balance issues throughout the whole season.
Acheron16 (EUW)
: How to fix Janna: Make it so she isn't able to achieve 550 move speed with her core items alone. If she's slower, she can be more punished for her mistakes. Done.
> [{quoted}](name=Acheron16,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fXm1fUdw,comment-id=0037,timestamp=2018-04-10T15:04:54.848+0000) > > How to fix Janna: > > Make it so she isn't able to achieve 550 move speed with her core items alone. > > If she's slower, she can be more punished for her mistakes. > > Done. honestly, this, lmao.
: So to your first point, 1) Where are you getting your info that nude bodies is a sign of purity? In modern Western societies nudity is seen as impropriety. Maybe you mean in ancient Greece, but they weren't down with women's bodies, they thought they were weird and gross. You might mean ancient Mesopotamia, but if so Kai'Sa should also be a lot larger. Maybe you mean ancient Egypt but if that's the case Riot should have shown her whole breasts, not just cleavage. I don't know where you're pulling this idea from. 2) You can come out on top and still struggle to do so. In fact her lore implies that she did struggle and suffer in order to attain her position on the ladder, why don't we see any representation of that in her character design. Rengar is an apex predator but that dude's missing an eye.
> [{quoted}](name=HonestlyAbby,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=aUnAAWhN,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2018-04-09T21:00:11.908+0000) > > So to your first point, 1) Where are you getting your info that nude bodies is a sign of purity? My art studies. > In modern Western societies nudity is seen as impropriety. You mean christian societies? >You might mean ancient Mesopotamia, but if so Kai'Sa should also be a lot larger. Maybe you mean ancient Egypt but if that's the case Riot should have shown her whole breasts, not just cleavage. I don't know where you're pulling this idea from. Its a very common known element in artistic expression. the human form in its untouched state is a display of our purity, because it is how we are when we come into the world. Untouched, uninhibited, and uncovered. Because of this, nudity in art is often used as a tool to show a character as pure, innocent or in a pure or innocent state. > 2) You can come out on top and still struggle to do so. In fact her lore implies that she did struggle and suffer in order to attain her position on the ladder, why don't we see any representation of that in her character design. Rengar is an apex predator but that dude's missing an eye. This just comes off as very reachy excuses to attempt to dismiss my point tho. whether she struggled in the beginning isn't relevant. she stopped struggling along time ago, and through her struggles, she managed to maintain her sense of self. Coming out drastically inhibited beyond the suit (which implies she grew from the void as opposed to it taking her over) would imply she deals with trauma and struggle that permanently damaged and scared her, as opposed to her coming out on top, and this is the purpose of design. Communicating the plight of the character. Kai 'sa didn't come out of hell barely alive. She came out thriving. She is more comparable to **Tarzan** than say, Kaneki Ken.
: > [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EoQpEnY9,comment-id=001c0000,timestamp=2018-03-21T15:59:43.042+0000) > > {{champion:17}} nope teemo can move and be seen while moving - I mean something where you never EVER see them actually moving
> [{quoted}](name=Pacattack25,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EoQpEnY9,comment-id=001c00000000,timestamp=2018-04-05T14:53:28.597+0000) > > nope teemo can move and be seen while moving - I mean something where you never EVER see them actually moving but u said its their only movement. inteemo's case, he effectively becomes with if he stays in his passive perpetually.
: The problem is that women are more than our breasts. If your only way of showing a character is female is boobs then you clearly have a limited understanding of femininity.
> [{quoted}](name=HonestlyAbby,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8fFHpxlW,comment-id=000500020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T20:01:32.073+0000) > > The problem is that women are more than our breasts. 1) Good thing i never implied women were just their breasts. 2) She is a fictional character, not an actual human. Whether "women are just their breasts or not" is not even remotely relevant. Breasts are the most obvious and clear delineating indication that a person is female. And in design, your primary goal is to communicate as much as possible with as much clarity as possible. > If your only way of showing a character is female is boobs then you clearly have a limited understanding of femininity. I could go on for ages about why this supposed concept of "femininity" you are trying to even put on the table is in of itself discriminatory and limiting, but as I said before, it isn't even remotely relevant. Why are you inserting identity politics into this is the better question. In design, your primary goal is to communicate as much as possible with as much clarity as possible. Things like, mannerisms, speech pattern or even likes and dislikes are not only not immediately or consistently apparent merely through a design, but they don't even inherently correlate to something as innocuous as "femininity", because at the end of the day, femininity amounts to, from an objective level " ones biology". Everything else is largely up for grabs and susceptible to our upbringing, environments, and experiences.
: She looks like someone who has lived their entire life in a developed nation. Sure she's an apex predator, but she wasn't when she was a kid which is when bone development occurs. Furthermore, her design fails to communicate the reality of her lore, maybe she really did eat enough to look like a normal person but then the design still fails to show the hermit/survivalist nature that her lore implies. The lore shouldn't justify the design, the design should illustrate the lore.
> [{quoted}](name=HonestlyAbby,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=aUnAAWhN,comment-id=0000000200010000000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T21:24:31.275+0000) > > She looks like someone who has lived their entire life in a developed nation. I disagree. her face is covered in markings and she is pale as heck and her gaze is all weird. > Sure she's an apex predator, but she wasn't when she was a kid which is when bone development occurs. what is the relevance of this at all? > Furthermore, her design fails to communicate the reality of her lore, maybe she really did eat enough to look like a normal person but then the design still fails to show the hermit/survivalist nature that her lore implies. I fail to see how. Mind actually explaining how it does, as opposed to merely claiming it to be the case?
: kha passive stealth should be camo
While I totally agree, if i had to guess as to why Riot didn't do that its because it creates inconsistent gameplay.
: I think the relevant problem here is that, despite the fact that supports have received increases overall to their gold income, they have not received comparable nerfs to the cheap cost of their items, or to their strong base power. Apdo himself mentions that the most frustrating part of dealing with supports is that they can hit their items sooner than everyone else, and turn into absolute monsters in the process, and it's this excessively fast pacing that I think is responsible for supports coming on too strong. Because of this, I feel the way to go should be to raise the cost of support items so that they match their income, and thereby get closer to a more reasonable pacing between their power spikes. Additionally, because mage supports are also now perfectly capable of purchasing full AP items, it might also help to take some of the power out of their bases, and put it into their scalings, as happened to Annie and Fiddlesticks back in Season 4 and its own increases to support income: one of the big sources of frustration in bot lane is that mage supports often tend to chunk for massive amounts of damage with only one or two damage items, and so specifically because they were intentionally given strong bases to offset the lack of scaling that used to be part and parcel of supporting. Now that support income is reaching comparable levels with junglers and top laners (which I think is a good thing, as I personally don't think supports should be made to rely on low income), it should be a good time to finally break the need to give champions in the support role overly cheap items and high bases.
> [{quoted}](name=Teridax68,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-10T02:58:18.842+0000) > > I think the relevant problem here is that, despite the fact that supports have received increases overall to their gold income, they have not received comparable nerfs to the cheap cost of their items, or to their strong base power. Apdo himself mentions that the most frustrating part of dealing with supports is that they can hit their items sooner than everyone else, and turn into absolute monsters in the process, and it's this excessively fast pacing that I think is responsible for supports coming on too strong. I agree with this 100% and have been saying this ever since the Sightstone changes especially. >Additionally, because mage supports are also now perfectly capable of purchasing full AP items, it might also help to take some of the power out of their bases, and put it into their scalings, as happened to Annie and Fiddlesticks back in Season 4 and its own increases to support income: one of the big sources of frustration in bot lane is that mage supports often tend to chunk for massive amounts of damage with only one or two damage items, and so specifically because they were intentionally given strong bases to offset the lack of scaling that used to be part and parcel of supporting. This bit i feel has more to do with the rune changes than anything, especially with things like Summon Aery, Sudden impact and Guardian in the game right now.
: Heal and Shield power stats don't help(I feel like they're an extreme problem), allowing enchanter supports to build tanky while still having shield/heal numbers higher than if they went straight AP and being harder to kill themselves to counter the fact that they protect so well.
> [{quoted}](name=Atrushan2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-04-10T03:06:52.749+0000) > > Heal and Shield power stats don't help(I feel like they're an extreme problem), allowing enchanter supports to build tanky while still having shield/heal numbers higher than if they went straight AP and being harder to kill themselves to counter the fact that they protect so well. this is strictly untrue from the very basic concept of item slots.
: Passive gold generation definitely needs to be nerfed. (should've been obvious that something was wrong when even Junglers/Tops were building spellthiefs/ancient coin) Support Items need to be reworked and some frankly need to be straight up deleted. Things like Redemption? Okay, cool - it has clear strengths and weaknesses and both requires and allows for agency, both from the user, the recipient, and the enemy. Shit like Ardent Censor and Locket? Needs to be flat out removed from the game or nerfed into oblivion tbh. They're just disgusting stat checks that help break champions that are already stat checkers.
> [{quoted}](name=ExternalLink,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-04-10T04:47:00.221+0000) > > Passive gold generation definitely needs to be nerfed. > (should've been obvious that something was wrong when even Junglers/Tops were building spellthiefs/ancient coin) Agreed. > Support Items need to be reworked and some frankly need to be straight up deleted. Not too sure about this. which ones do you have in mind? > Things like Redemption? Okay, cool - it has clear strengths and weaknesses and both requires and allows for agency, both from the user, the recipient, and the enemy. > Shit like Ardent Censor and Locket? Needs to be flat out removed from the game or nerfed into oblivion tbh. lmao no. I think you are just having PTSD from last season. Ardent Censor is mostly fine as an item. Locket is already getting reworked on the other hand. >They're just disgusting stat checks that help break champions that are already stat checkers. This can be said for almost every item in the game by this logic.
: Yeah thats because people are blind to support buffs. Caitlyn and Jonx creeped up to top tier adcs this patch, despite getting 0 buffs. What changed? Relic shield, melee support item got nerfed. No other change to bot lane. What was the result? Janna Lulu Sona Soraka are overperforming again. What does that have to do with jinx and cait? They both get way too much power from Enchanters. And thats the for over whole season. Its not like Zed cannot 1v1 Adcies, as Zed mains claim. Its not Darius cant chase down solo adc. However Janna speeding up Adc for ridiculous amounts, shields for half of their hp, AS buffs from censer, that all makes them unkillable. Enchanters should be weakest type of support for they require the least amount of direct gameplay. And its not even funny that Janna Soraka Lulu and maybe Nami are supports that all together add up to over 60% pick rate in high elo. Leona is basically non existent Threshes win rate drop above gold and reaches almost Bronze values in Diamond, Braum is the only melee support that is competing with Janna reskinned Jana v1 reskinned Janna v2 Reskinned Janna v3. AND and braum is getting nerfed next patch. It is not ADC meta. Its support meta.
>Caitlyn and Jonx creeped up to top tier adcs this patch, despite getting 0 buffs. Thats been the story of ADCs since the dawn of time tho. that isn't indicative on anythign by itself.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Greedy Pikachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-04-10T09:50:09.046+0000) > > I think it's only the shield supports who are overbearing though Even tho they are factually the weakest of the supports currently while tank supports roam rampid?
: I feel like enchanters are the problem. Supports like Alistar are fine.
> [{quoted}](name=cinderhurst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-04-10T14:36:51.615+0000) > > I feel like enchanters are the problem. Supports like Alistar are fine. Even tho it's the opposite. Complaining about Enchanters is honestly just a meme when Tank supports LIKE Alistar are the ones ruling the meta all season.
: Yeah, I think this is pretty much it. Boards are full of assassin mains (including Yi and other jungle assassins along with lane assassins) and the only kind of support they like is the one they can kill 10 times in the first 10 minutes so they get fed enough to "outplay" everyone else too. 80% of players in the 4.5 v 4.5 era used to agree it felt good to have that half champion to push around even if you fell behind the other real champions. So they can't understand why Riot would ruin something like that.
> [{quoted}](name=Partholonian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2018-04-10T02:12:44.607+0000) > > Yeah, I think this is pretty much it. Boards are full of assassin mains (including Yi and other jungle assassins along with lane assassins) and the only kind of support they like is the one they can kill 10 times in the first 10 minutes so they get fed enough to "outplay" everyone else too. > > 80% of players in the 4.5 v 4.5 era used to agree it felt good to have that half champion to push around even if you fell behind the other real champions. So they can't understand why Riot would ruin something like that. As someone who plays both Support AND assassin, this is pretty much correct.
: A lot of assassins and divers believe they deserve to win 1v2s if one of the 2 is a support. Because everyone knows those aren't supposed to be real champions, so you just 1v1 the enemy champion and then clean up the funny-looking minion afterward. It doesn't help that the game actually played like that for multiple seasons.
> [{quoted}](name=Partholonian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2018-04-10T02:17:01.987+0000) > > A lot of assassins and divers believe they deserve to win 1v2s if one of the 2 is a support. Because everyone knows those aren't supposed to be real champions, so you just 1v1 the enemy champion and then clean up the funny-looking minion afterward. > > It doesn't help that the game actually played like that for multiple seasons. This. 100%
: > [{quoted}](name=tíde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-09T16:36:19.935+0000) > > So far I have heard: > > {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:16}} - Braindead boosted players just spam shield/heal > {{champion:412}} {{champion:223}} - Too hard to catch adc out with lanturn/tahm w instantly saving them > {{champion:53}} {{champion:25}} - All they do is land 1 skillshot and then give adc free kills even if the adc is bad > {{champion:63}} - Does too much damage as a support > > So then what supports DOES boards find healthy, or does boards just hate all supports in this game. Nami
> [{quoted}](name=ExternalLink,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vO37Q6u8,comment-id=0024,timestamp=2018-04-10T04:50:59.953+0000) > > Nami Nami only doesn't get bitched about because people are too busy bitching about others. In reality, nami is probably the biggest Generalist on the support roster.
Ventura (NA)
: So what kind of support do people find healthy?
None. Supports by there very design are meant to enable allies and disable enemies. That's the entire point and appeal of a support. you interact with the game indirectly through other players. The only people who don't bitch about supports are support players, because everyone else just sees them as a cockblock. _Even tho that's the supports job. _ It's like asking what is healthy for an assassin to the boards. No one finds them healthy because their job is to pick ppl off and no one likes being picked off. The only state in which people won't complain about them is if we make them wardbots again. Quite frankly, the fact that people are actually bitching about supports is a good thing. It shows that supports have finally reached a point where they are actual champions, because previously they were essentially half champions. Every champ in the game gets complained about otherwise. Every single one. People bitching about supports to a certain degree is actually healthy in this regard.
Vanjie (NA)
: Riot Developers "In Hindsight We Should've Listened to Karma Mains"
I never got to play old karma, but it only took me 2 seconds to see she was far better and had a much more concrete identity than the generalist plate of tofu that we have now. #BringBackTheFans
YuGiHo (NA)
: but, honestly how much more can they nerf janna?
> [{quoted}](name=YuGiHo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fXm1fUdw,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-04-09T17:02:19.320+0000) > > but, honestly how much more can they nerf janna? Make her autos heal.
MigYalle (NA)
: new meme, i'm down
> [{quoted}](name=MigYalle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fXm1fUdw,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2018-04-09T17:14:24.459+0000) > > new meme, i'm down Old meme tbh
: Zed has 53% win rate and probably needs nerfs
Zed currently oneshots anything in a millisecond without even using ulti. Its actually disgusting, lol.
: There should be a female scientist champion
I think that'd be cool! Thry could maybe specialise it making potions and concoctions, drugs etc to inhibit enemies!
: Ok but what point does boob plate serve in character design? What does it say about the character other than, it's a chick?
> [{quoted}](name=HonestlyAbby,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8fFHpxlW,comment-id=0005000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T16:11:35.124+0000) > > Ok but what point does boob plate serve in character design? What does it say about the character other than, it's a chick? Yes. What's wrong with that? Seem pretty good at asnwering your own question.
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ChaddyFantome

Level 74 (NA)
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