: 18K true damage on Mundo?
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Mark Mark does true dmg 300 true dmg https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/3208930659/1988779056277792?tab=stats 2700 true dmg https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/3208714252/1988779056277792?tab=stats The 18k was true dmg dealt which could be on anything. Turrets minions not sure how the system calculates his dmg considering they have 0 magic resist. The system may have calculated his magic dmg to minions as true dmg.
: Can we make it so premades can't match with Solos
because you know 2 +2 +2 = 5 This would defintely work for ranked queue.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=I0AWBsk6,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-16T04:34:37.914+0000) > > So you dont think matchups? How early ganks go? How laners react? Any luck factors? Invades? Or just simply bad games exist? If your jungler does worse than the enemy jungler its auto means they have the better jungler? Did you not read my example at all?
Your example doesnt cover all jungle ganks in the history of league. And in your example darius even at lv 9 cant 1v2 unless renek is also behind (and possibly lee) and if they play it terribly. Renek and lee dash into Darius' Q to avoid giving him the heal and thats the end of the fight right there.
: Was just asking for advice if there was anything I could do. This is literally the circle jerk from hell in here. I got the info I needed, but what a painful process my god. Ill never use boards again. 9 years of positivity doesn't matter. Got it. Ty very much all. Talk to you again never.
I mean when you come here because you got chat banned and know that strips you of your honor level and rewards. There's not much else to talk about. Trying to put yourself above the system as if you may not apply to what everyone else applies to is just conceited.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=I0AWBsk6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-15T19:53:48.048+0000) > > But its used as a personal attack against their team's jungler. If I wanted to insult my jungler I'd call him dog shit. If I say "better jg wins" it's just a fact. Jungle is too strong as a role because of early ganks. Ganking a Darius lv 1 as Lee with a Renek top is an easy kill. If he fails (worse jungler) Darius has 400g, maybe a double kill for 700g, buffs, and will get lv 3 before Renek gets back. If he succeeds (better jungler) Renek gets a lead and Darius is behind. Now if he ganked at Darius lv 9 with cleaver, Darius could turn if he plays right and get a kill or 2 out of it.
So you dont think matchups? How early ganks go? How laners react? Any luck factors? Invades? Or just simply bad games exist? If your jungler does worse than the enemy jungler its auto means they have the better jungler?
: This phrase at its core is less about blaming individuals and specific circumstances for winning/losing, and more about how the Jungle role has extremely disproportionate(ly high) agency on the flow of the game. And if one Jungler is leveraging this agency better than their counterpart, there are few paths to victory for the team with the underperforming Jungler. The phrase "better JG wins" is a protest against an overpowered role, not a personal attack against a team's Jungler.
But its used as a personal attack against their team's jungler. In most cases the laners the are ones that allow one jungle to perform better than the other by their play style.
: Why is it even if you never actually say anything toxic people can still 9x you successfully?
: post your unedited chat logs, and the almighty Boards will decide whether your punishment was deserved
: Well it is, and you're wrong, but the only other way I could put it is, I'm a first time offender, of a minor misdemeanor, and I'm getting the punishment of a repeat offender. People that get chat restricted is a warning usually. It's riots way of saying, "hey don't do that again." The timing of this what should be warning, makes it way more severe. This is my issue. I have had all my rewards stripped for a first time, minor offence, and would like an opportunity to rectify the situation.
So you want another chance, what about every one else that got chat banned? It was their first time too? Do they get a chance too? And what about the players who never got chat banned before? What do they get? IF they do revert your honor to where it was, you, who was toxic in a game and them, who followed the rules completely get the same rewards? You knew if you got chat banned you'd lose your rewards and you continued to say whatever you said that got you chat banned. You made the choice live with your choice now.
Quáx (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sAOwTMpO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-14T21:49:34.529+0000) > > Why not? Why would you wait till the last week of the season to rank up? If you look at my profile Ive been climbing all year. Its a shitty time to release a character for everyone else and myself who are close to achieving rank.
Even climbing constantly if after this long you're still not at the rank you feel you should be at you either werent climbing the entire time (playing norms and stuff) or you were stuck at some point and now you feel like your climbing again.
Eedat (NA)
: Actually criminal history is a large factor when determining the punishment for a crime
But it isnt a determining factor whether you should get a punishment or not.
Quáx (NA)
: Why would Riot release a new champ 1 week before ranked season end
Why not? Why would you wait till the last week of the season to rank up?
: ''You don't have permission to play this game''.
You mom contacted Riot and she said she wants you off the computer.
: account in good standing since season 1
>when my track record is solid and I've worked all year getting these rewards. So if i have a good track record and break the law should i be above the law for this one time because i have a good track record?
: LMAO I can't tell if you're trolling or not 1% of 700 is not 70 ITS 7 LOL. The difference between Fizz E and Akali W should also be fairly obvious. Majority of fizz's damage in his non-ultimate kit comes from his E. He has to use it to do damage, he can't hold onto it untill a bad situation comes up.
Hey ma boi +1 for being able to think critically. Would this be called thinking critically or just common sense? Anyways +1 for you my man you hit the nail on the head.
pwc2016 (NA)
: Can We Talk About Fizz?
>Yes, it's a 1% ratio, but it doesn't seem uncommon to get up to 700+ AP if a game goes on long enough, so Fizz can easily be reducing 70+ damage from all sources. Autos? 70 less damage. It doesn't seem like a lot, but it definitely adds up. You do know 1% of 700 is 7 right? Not 70. After that we dropped the number game and began the rant being the only actual numbers that showed up were >This means that Fizz can have up to .75 seconds on untargetability every 6 seconds. dropped with an opinion >You literally cannot trade with him in Playful Trickster. You can't trade with him until he gets out and he cant trade with you during it. >but that means he's guaranted to get Electrocute off with almost no way to retaliate wait i think we missed a step. >On top of this, Fizz is AP, so he scales incredibly well and has access to Hourglass and Armguard, so he doesn't struggle against really any matchjups that badly in midlane. Wait in what way does he scale well? His 30% Ap ratio on his W? or 55% on his Q? 75% is a decent scaling which is what mages have on every single ability. His ult being 80% and if you're a blind monk maybe 120% but thats literally only if you have the reflexes of a person with no senses. >Fizz has had a a win rate above 51.5% win rate since 9.14. The winrate argument. The go to for players who cant explain anything besides "say what the champion's abilities are and say their winrate"
Dayar (NA)
: Open Letter to ... me?
LOL i love this shit
: > So how is this idea safe? That they cant be punished. Zed is going to be snared by lux. He presses w to avoid it. How is this not safe? Yes they have to take "risk" at killing her, but usually they do it because she is easy to kill (small note here, lux because of her shield might not be that easy, however a veigar would most certainly be an easy kill to a zed). > No this isnt what the "high risk high reward" means. The risk of locking in an assassin is if you dont get fed you become useless. So at the risk of becoming useless you pick a champ that IF you get fed can shut down 1 enemy champion. Thats was once. Nowadays the dmg is so high (or rather the defence is low) that high risk doesnt exist because killing a squishy mage is relatively easy. > Mages can match the burst of an assassin if not beat it once they have 4-5 items On average not really. And those that can have an easier kit to dodge (like veigar's). > Thats poor positioning from the jungler but this response is besides the main point i will make to answer this. How come? How else is he going to gank? The other way is for the mage to bait fizz. But thats risky since fizz could always kill him. > You cant gank them if their abilities are up but theyre also melee and are easily harassed. Once again, it depends. Dodging lissandra's q is not. Dodging vel's q is easy. > Why would i play fizz if he's prone to being killed early AND needs to get a lead to be as relevant as a mage? Because you want to take the matters in your own hands. Lemme explain. As a mage you need to wait to become relevant (unless the enemy feeds you kills) for whatever reason. Like getting fed before the enemy carry reaches a certain powerspike. As an assassin is way easier to do it because your kit allows you. As veigar i cant get fed unless my jungler camps me. Fizz however when he reaches 6 he can kill almost all mages (or force them to to go b) with ease. Thus you are getting fed and are able to shut down that enemy carry easier. > Assasin- The mage has to position poorly AND the enemy jungle has to be on the map at the same time. Mage- Harass the assassin from range while he tries to farm until hes low enough to full combo down with your cc to lock him down. (this could end up poking the assassin out of lane and forcing him to fall behind by missing cs) Not sure what you are trying to prove here. > I wouldnt say avoiding xerath's poke is easy, I would say its a bad xerath if hes missing most of his poke His targets can always react to his poke. Everything is telegraphed. They can adjust to xerath's q direction. P e r i o d. > When played properly its incredibly hard to dodge "poke" because they'd be poking every time you try to get a minion The timeframe for such an action is incredibly small to pull this off perfectly. Most of the times they just dont aa when you press q. Not everyone is kalista you know. You can cancel your aa. Also that might make you fall behind in cs since you focus on poking. > Because a champion's auto attack or ability cast is a "mini root" for lack of better words which means the champion cant move for a really small duration which is just enough time to poke them with an ability Yep. Which in actuallity is not possible. Even high elo xerath players cant pull this off. The window of opportunity is horrendiously small. > forcing the assassin to push up in lane and lose their kill potential on the mage without turret diving or opening themselves to a gank. They also can roam at that position. > Because walking up to a velkoz as zed is should be a walk in the park. The vel should never be in range for zed to ult and if zed W's into vel and ults well he just lost 1 of his dodges. And his other dodge is returning to his R so if vel puts his E where zed is coming out with that short delay on his R cast vel gets a full combo on zed and now zed needs to decide does he take R back He can always walk sideways to avoid that full channel ulti. But otherwise you are right a vel should never be in range. However he will go aa range at some point. If he dont, he will start falling behind in cs. > But even if we ignore the state of the lane velkoz's full combo does 726 dmg with 0 AP at level 6 where zed has 920 hp. This doesnt include comet, coup de grace, or scorch and obviously not the free 12 AP from runes or any AP from items or ignite. This doesnt include the fact that vel needs to channel his ulti for 2.5 sec. > Where as zed's full combo ulting landing 2 Qs and his E is 381 dmg (applying vel's base armor) where vel's hp is 868 at level 6. 381? Hmm my calculations 436 after armour. That is also 1 aa and i put 3 q because its possible (no ratios ofc) and his ulti has yet to proc. Anyhow to moving on, this will leave him with 431 hp. Funnily enough this puts him under 50% as such his next aa will also proc his passive. As such his next aa will proc passive for an additional 40 magic dmg (after mr). When his ulti procs it will deal an additional 146 (after armour) dmg if my calcs are correct. So both of them deal more or less the same dmg. Runes and items dictate who will deal more dmg. However something to keep in mind is vel's ulti. He needs to channel it while zed is free to move around or even use his w to reposition. > Which means the mage knows this and can back up and play more safely during these 10-20 seconds. What this exactly? That his jungler is top or that zed's w is up? > Lost chapter doesnt give cdr And now i feel stupid for thinking it gave cdr. > As for mana, manaflow band is more than enough as long as you're conserving your mana instead of spamming it however you like. True but most mages dont want to farm under turret. > Oddly enough you mention the assassin only needs to harass the mage once before all inning whereas you never mention that means during those 20 seconds the mage can harass the assassin 2-3 times during the cd of his W and where the mage doesnt even need it to burst the assassin. Yes he can. If it wasnt for the fact that mages have a more difficult kit to land, for a better word. During said time zed (in our case) can stand back and farm with his q for the time being. > Because you know they dont have hard cc. Vel E xerath E Lux Q Ori movespeed buffs and debuffs and her R Vel's e is 0.75 and reducable (if you land it considerin the delay). Xerath's q is a terrible peel cc since at melee range is 0.5 (hardly enough to get far away). Orianna has both a speed up and a slow, alongside her ulti and shield. She can survive ganks. Vel and xerath however lack these tools. > m not going to bring up players into this discussion because when discussing this topic its about the concept not how its played. If we're going to bring human interaction into if something is balanced or not, then you need 2 individuals who are equally skilled at the game, Most definitely. > What you're saying is. "if assassins can capitalize on my mistakes, then we should nerf them until the mistakes lead to balanced output in the lane". When did i say that? All i said is that mages are made to function (to an extent and some of them) even from behind.
Just to be open about this before i start. Im not the one down voting you. >He presses w to avoid it. How is this not safe? Yes they have to take "risk" at killing her, but usually they do it because she is easy to kill But if hes pressing W to avoid it then he cant press W to engage on her unless shes casting her snare before he casts W in which case lux would again be playing poorly. Veigar's the same result theres no reason for veigar to E unless he wants to keep zed away from him. Outside of that he can just spam Q's at the wave and zed and when zed attempts to engage onto him he e's himself to stun zed. >Nowadays the dmg is so high (or rather the defence is low) that high risk doesnt exist because killing a squishy mage is relatively easy. Killing a mage with hourglass isnt as easy as you're making it seem. Let alone one with barrier, boneplating, and possibly other shields and building seekers. >On average not really. And those that can have an easier kit to dodge (like veigar's). Again you need to use the champion's ability's statistics to prove something here. Veigars Q is a 60% ap ratio W is a 100% ap ratio and R is a 75% AP ratio and you're not dodging any of those if he lands E. Also Q can hit 2 targets for max dmg and W can hit multiple and R is point and click which is increased in dmg based on the target's missing health. Combined with veigar's AP stacking passive this would be a terrible champ to use as an example of a mage that assassins can beat in dmg. When his W's hit upwards to 1.3k dmg to each target hit and his Q's do 700+ dmg. You're looking at him deleting targets without his ult. >How come? How else is he going to gank? The other way is for the mage to bait fizz. But thats risky since fizz could always kill him. Champions that can dash to you or through you like fizz, yasuo, etc are better off being ganked by staying pallel with them as you move in diagonally rather than getting behind them to give them a free escape. This way you keep the fizz from getting farther away from your laner without using his escape ability in this case his E. >Once again, it depends. Dodging lissandra's q is not. Dodging vel's q is easy. So the argument you're making now is that a velkoz Q is easy to dodge whether its a challenger player playing velkoz or a bronze player playing him. Whether its a 1 trick velkoz playing him or a first time velkoz. Experience in the game and on the champion play a huge factor on whether something is "easy" to dodge or not. Not to mention we're also bringing in human intervention into the discussion again which again if we're gonna balance champions based on whether or not players can hit a skill shot that'd be a terrible balance design. >s a mage you need to wait to become relevant (unless the enemy feeds you kills) for whatever reason. Remove the first part of this and this applies to assassins. So i dont get the point you're trying to make here. So i said "Why would i play fizz if he's prone to being killed early AND needs to get a lead to be as relevant as a mage?" You responded with as an assassin you get free kills. That doesnt mean its in "your hands" as you stated. You still need the enemy team to make a mistake its just easier to take advantage of that mistake. which i already said in an earlier post. Right here" What you're saying is. "if assassins can capitalize on my mistakes, then we should nerf them until the mistakes lead to balanced output in the lane". Which in that sense would mean mages would be stronger up until x amount of mistakes are made (whatever number you want to define). Which again would be an absurd argument to make." You made the same argument and i replied with this and now you're making the same argument again without refuting this. >Not sure what you are trying to prove here. My point here is that each class has conditions when they're in a favorable position, the mage's conditions occur more often than the assassin's conditions, meaning control of the lane is usually in the mage's hand not the assassins. >His targets can always react to his poke. Everything is telegraphed. They can adjust to xerath's q direction. P e r i o d. Moving side ways as xerath when channeling Q can mask the angle you're putting your Q on. Its not like you have to select your range at the start of the channel you can choose where in a split second and it'll cast. You're making it sound like because your opponent sees it channeling they know where you'll cast it. >The timeframe for such an action is incredibly small to pull this off perfectly. Most of the times they just dont aa when you press q. Not everyone is kalista you know. You can cancel your aa. Also that might make you fall behind in cs since you focus on poking. Tell that to every coach and high elo player who needs to do this as second nature. The problem is you're playing this off as its okay to not take advantage of your opponent when you can when you're a mage and when you're an assassin taking advantage of your strengths isnt fair. At some point you need to learn to abuse your range and position in the laning phase if you dont want to do it thats on you as a player not on the balance of the game. >Yep. Which in actuallity is not possible. Even high elo xerath players cant pull this off. The window of opportunity is horrendiously small. Not true i've seen a xerath main specifically on youtube giving commentary while playing talking about how hes going to harass his lane opponent as they attempt to farm if you want proof you'll have to give me some time to look it up and ill post some vids you can watch on it. >They also can roam at that position. They roam you push lane they lose cs. Assuming your team respects a mia, they fall behind and are less inclinde to roam while also giving you the time to back or roam while they try to catch the wave. Now giving you the lead that you were saying they would get. >He can always walk sideways to avoid that full channel ulti. But otherwise you are right a vel should never be in range. Velkoz's ult has a 20% slow on it, so assuming you're hitting the ult the only way for zed to dodge it is to take his R back in which case he loses his escape and final gap closer so he cant get back on top of vel. Which means vel's free to harass him until his ult is back up. >This doesnt include the fact that vel needs to channel his ulti for 2.5 sec. Velkoz's E lasts .75 seconds and his slow from the Q lasts 1.8 seconds at level 6. when combining them together you're looking at 2.55 seconds of cc not including vel's ult slow. >381? Hmm my calculations 436 after armour. We assumed he W'd in to get close to velkoz's If velkoz was out of range of zed prior to that then his Q of his W shadow would be out of range as well. Also vel still has the delay time on zed's ult to walk away from the shadow before zed reappears and vel can knock him up with his E then and burst him. >What this exactly? That his jungler is top or that zed's w is up? jungler being top. Since you made the point that if the mage's jungler is top the assassin can go aggressive. Well the mage can just back up during this time. How long will the gank take. Id say roughly 10-20 seconds max. And id say thats being generous. >True but most mages dont want to farm under turret. They can farm just outside turret range by freezing the wave there. >Yes he can. If it wasnt for the fact that mages have a more difficult kit to land, for a better word. During said time zed (in our case) can stand back and farm with his q for the time being. So why cant the mage push up and shove him off the wave during this time? Denying zed both exp and gold and if zed chooses to stay the mage harasses down the zed. Not to mention on the initial trade both the mage and zed would be trading abilities. Zed's shadow range is 650 whereas velkoz's Q range is 1100 his W is 1050 and his E is 800. So velkoz could be out of zed's range and still hit him with both his Q and W if he chooses he can take the E dmg to cast his E but i would advise against that. So vel trades safely while zed has to give up his escape to trade and even then can only hit vel with 1 Q. (his shadow's Q.) >Xerath's q is a terrible peel cc since at melee range is 0.5 (hardly enough to get far away). You mean xerath E. Besides that vel and xerath have the tools to farm from across the lane which is why they lane in mid lane which is a shorter lane. >When did i say that? All i said is that mages are made to function (to an extent and some of them) even from behind. The issue comes in, is when you want to balance around this, that means you dont want assassins to "easily" kill targets when the targets make mistakes. >Why would one want to play zed over lux? Because zed has a much easier and safer laning phase. He scales faster than lux. He can get out after a fight and lastly his kit is much more reliable. For lux to burst someome she needs to land her q which is skillshot. For zed to burst someone he has to get in range for his r. Your original post simplified the difference down to this. When in reality, having to be an aggressor is anything but safe. You've said they're safer due to their mobility, when without using that mobility they cant get the kills they need to be relevant, whereas mages are the safe picks due to not having this lead factor needed and still maintaining their relevant status throughout all stages of the game.
: > 90 mana pe..... straight clearing. Oke first of all props for doing such an analysis. Second of all, thats a very cool analysis and has some insight on her mana however all these kinda fall down when you realise that she will be forced to use her other abilities too. Also you mention "clearing waves", you mean clearing all 6 (and occusional cannon) with her e only no aa? Also please next time use some paragraphs. That shit is hurting the eyes a bit xD. > I had to go back to double check, but then you're proving my original point correct. You said zed scales faster than lux, i told you a 2 item lux can kill just like zed can. And you just agreed that this is the case. Im not really sure exactly what exactly i even tried with this point tbh. > Unless the zed is fed or the squishy has 0 armor 1 Q isnt going to kill the target. Assuming (E Q Auto after the R), in which case again this is the assassin captializing on the mistake of his opponent. It wont be 1 shuriken. It will be at least 2. A shadow spawns in the location where zed used his ulti. A lot of experienced zed players will w somewhere close before using their ulti to land 3 q and/or immediately reposition. In such a scenario, unless you have pure dmg reduction you will take a lot of dmg (provided he isnt behind). As for a mistake, eh i find wrong to call it a mistake of his opponent. That shit has 650 range. You will be forced to get that close. You can always not go but you usually have to go (secure minions because your farming ability is on cd, didnt kill a minion, passive forces you to get closer etc). > Im assuming we're dropping ori from this discussion because shes a safe laner cuz of her shield. My point was that there arent a lot of mages that have shields. And aoe at that. > . Xerath and vel you say lack strong utility but they dont lack it, sure it can be reduced in the case of xerath but that doesnt mean its not there. Utility is anything that isnt related to dmg. Cc, buffs, debuffs, shields, cripples, vision, goldmaking, etc. Xerath and vel really have dmg and a bit of cc. Their cc is weak because its easy to avoid (vel koz has a delay until it lands on top of a crippling cast time) or is extremely difficult to use (xerath's stun is single target that scales with distance. As someone that has played A LOT of xerath i can safely tell you that landing it max range is highly unprobable for a variety of reasons it usually has a duration of 1.2 sec). Is it there? Yes. Is it gamechanging? Well assuming vel's e knocks up more than 1 target yes (spoiler alert, nigh impossible because of said delay and radius). Assuming xerath lands his max range e on a priority target yes (which wont happen because he has more than enough time to react to it). > Malz can literally lock down the assassin who's trying to assassinate him Yes his niche is rather pontent. Doesnt mean he has a lot of utility. He has an aoe silence (soft cc btw) and a suppression (that also knocks down dashes). He can also body block sometimes thanks to his passive. In terms of utility he has certainly more than xerath or vel. > So xerath and vel were your two example i think ziggs is another one that falls under this category and what do they all have in common as artillery mages? Eh ziggs is in a far better position. He has dmg just like these two above. But he has far better zoning thanks to his whole kit, better cc (you cant reduce a knock back) that can also act as a dash for himself. Also pushing potential. But yeah im getting off topic. Yeah they are all artillery mages. However their kits dont bring a lot of utility. Because almost everything in their kit is dmg related. > I've said this before in this post and ill post here it again what your statistics show are that playing assassins is easier capitalize on player mistakes. What this doesnt show, is that mages are weaker late game than assassins. Oke im confused. Do you believe that mages are weaker late game than assassins or not? > We're debating whether the assassin class falls off And how exactly do you do that without using the above stastistics? > Statistically you'd have to use an assassin's dmg numbers Idk. Mages have lots of aoe. That inflates their dmg post game. > Bringing up numbers that assassins are better at punishing players who refuse to group means little to nothing. Emm the stats are form korean server. Koreans are very good at this game. I cant speak from personal experience unfortunately but they could be better than the average player in other region ( ik they could be exaggerated but still there has to be some truth in what everyone says). I highly doubt (opgg uses stats from plat+) that these lads cant group up vs an assassin. > Evelynn Evelynn? How come? Her cc is very telegraphed and can be body blocked (her q prioritzes closest champ).
>Also you mention "clearing waves", you mean clearing all 6 (and occusional cannon) with her e only no aa? That depends on the point in the game right? How well the Lux player secures her cs, but if cs'ing properly (60-80% csing) she'll clear the backline with no autos and the frontline with maybe 1 auto if the minions arent focusing them. In either case shoving isnt always in a mage's best interest but for the sake of example i was using it to prove that you can shove for 4 mins straight assuming you're doing nothing else. >It wont be 1 shuriken. It will be at least 2. In this case the assassin isnt using his mobility to get on his target. since You're assuming his W is still up when he's in range to cast his ultimate. Which would fall under the case of the opposing player making a huge mistake. As for you not labeling it as a mistake. Thats only if zed is your target and if he is why would you target him if he wins the fight? It wouldnt make any sense. Its like me trying to fight lux but if she snares me i insta die. I shouldnt take that fight to begin with and in a teamfight its not like zed and run a straight line to your backline and no ones gonna do anything to him. So hes normally going to need to either flank or cast W to get to his target in either case his ult has the delay which gives prep time to counter his play. >Their cc is weak because its easy to avoid (vel koz has a delay until it lands on top of a crippling cast time) or is extremely difficult to use (xerath's stun is single target that scales with distance. Again you're bringing into it player factors. If we look only at the kits and assume theyre played properly even a shorttest stun timer is .5 seconds which still allows you to move during this time. On top of that the stun has a 1050 range and you have a slow on your W if an assassin is threatening slowing them will force them to use their gap closer in zed's case W to be able to R onto you. In which case theres no way his W will be in range of you assuming you're walking back during the delay time and you still have your stun to get out of range of his other shadow before he casts Q. At that point absorbing 1 Q 1 E and his R even with a few autos is no threat and will give you complete lane control with his ult on cd. >Oke im confused. Do you believe that mages are weaker late game than assassins or not? They arent. Let me rephrase what i was saying. You were trying to prove mages are weaker in the late game using those statistics. What i was telling you was, those stats prove "what your statistics show are that playing assassins is easier capitalize on player mistakes". What the stats doesnt prove is, "mages are weaker late game than assassins", which was the point you were trying to make with those stats. And i further explained why due to human intervention and how their mistakes can taint the results of these stats because no one is playing perfectly and if we center our balancing around champions being played incorrectly than you have a terribly balanced game. Take for example, Soraka vs Lux. If Soraka isnt killing Lux despite building full Ap because Lux keeps shielding her dmg and Lux's winrate in the late game is higher than soraka's then we need to buff soraka's dmg until her dmg is matching lux's dmg. But if you do this soraka still has her healing capability and becomes overpowered due to the dmg in her kit while maintaining her healing. This is a really off the top of my head example of how if you balance a champion to fit the incorrect playstyles of players you will end up unbalancing the game. This is why when we look at mages vs assassins we need to look at them with their ability numbers and playstyles in mind and not the outside factors involved such as misplaying. >And how exactly do you do that without using the above stastistics? Logically we've already proven an assassin falls off. 1. Their lack of teamfight potential when not ahead. 2. Their lack of utility/cc/range to safely output contribution. So what we know is they have to be "in your face" which means if they dont burst fast enough or get cc'd they insta die with no meaningful contribution to the fight. Split pushing they're no where near being on par with bruisers due to their lack of tankiness and failure to be able to assassinate tankier champions without being ahead. Which means when teams are grouped assassins lose their value due to not having targets to assassinate and only when players make mistakes do assassins gain back this value where as mages can be grouped in a teamfight and still play a moderate to heavy impact in the fight depending on what they do with their abilities. For example Lux shielding 4 allies provides sustain for her team with little risk involved. Lux snaring the targets initiated on means majority of the time the high priority targets will die. Xerath zoning high priority targets in a fight with his ult or putting out a lot of AoE dmg. An assassin cant provide these things to a teamfight especially not from the safety of their backline. This doesnt even get into when you look at a champion like neeko with 130% AP ratios on her ult whereas assassins are sitting at 100% ad at best (in the case of ad assassins). Then when you look at ap assassin ratios you're looking at 30-60% ratios on their abilities. Where as mages have 70%+ >Idk. Mages have lots of aoe. That inflates their dmg post game. Its not about their actual dmg output. Im referring to their ratios. Their cooldowns. A xerath with 40% cdr is looking at 3 second Q cooldowns which deal 240 +75% AP ratio in dmg to each target. Find me 1 single assassin who can match that dmg with 4+ items on either champion. Overall you're looking at around 700 magic dmg to each person hit by the ability which is on a 3 sec cd. His ult has the potential of 1400 + 215% of his Ap ratio assuming xerath hits 600-800 ap late game thats 2690-3120 dmg potentially to 1 target. These are numbers an assassin cant reach at this point in the game. >Evelynn? How come? Her cc is very telegraphed and can be body blocked (her q prioritzes closest champ). Where her cc is telegraphed she can just E the target and they'll be charmed. Had they made it so she needs to land the initial Q to get the charm i would be okay with her. And once a target is hard cc'd without any setup (setting up the duration of the telegraph'd part she can do while stealthed) its hard to justify giving her the ability to assassinate her target. Not to mention her % health dmg meaning she scales with the rest of the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6kEglQ5K,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-14T17:21:31.583+0000) > > Those steps have always been the steps to building a small lead into a larger one. So i dont get whats the issue if this is what you're having an issue with. Maybe now you're just a better player and realizing it as opposed to maybe your skill in the past. It’s being seen even in high level play. You used to be able to manage a comeback if you fell behind by playing safe, and being useful in team fights. That doesn’t work anymore. It’s all just beating each other over the head with stat sticks now. You used to need around a full item lead to invalidate your laner. Now it’s done with just a long sword advantage. Falling behind 10 cs should not be nearly as devastating as it is now. There is no outplay. Team comps no longer matter.
>It’s being seen even in high level play. You used to be able to manage a comeback if you fell behind by playing safe, and being useful in team fights. I agree with this mostly. >That doesn’t work anymore. It’s all just beating each other over the head with stat sticks now. Where this made me laugh because of the jargon, i cant agree with it completely. Which is why i agree mostly with the previous statement. Comebacks are still applicable but consider large amount of messing up or just not playing properly by the enemy team to happen. >Now it’s done with just a long sword advantage. Falling behind 10 cs should not be nearly as devastating as it is now. I feel this is a bit exaggerated but i can understand where your coming from. >There is no outplay. Team comps no longer matter. I defintely agree with this due to the large amounts of dmg in the current game. Its whoever strikes first wins.
: The game feels so flow-charty now.
Those steps have always been the steps to building a small lead into a larger one. So i dont get whats the issue if this is what you're having an issue with. Maybe now you're just a better player and realizing it as opposed to maybe your skill in the past.
: Really
>sarkazum2: drag sarkazum2: jg is top sarkazum2: fuck lee sarkazum2: get the fucking drag next time sarkazum2: you dont have to play sarkazum2: lee sarkazum2: get the fucking drag sarkazum2: not skuttle sarkazum2: we wouldve been gone by the time they got there sarkazum2: you shouldnt play jg sarkazum2: thats litterally your job sarkazum2: get out of rank if you wanna play like shit sarkazum2: muted sarkazum2: pos sarkazum2: sry jinx sarkazum2: ummm, we won our lane sarkazum2: to bads ours is a dumbass sarkazum2: awww, the child didnt get enough sleep last night sarkazum2: i dont get why i still see him sarkazum2: i muted him sarkazum2: he doesnt have a clue how to play sarkazum2: he prob bought a silver account sarkazum2: he is just afk sarkazum2: we didnt say shit bout his lee, we said he shouldve got drag, and cried like a child sarkazum2: yall wanna trade jgs sarkazum2: ours is broke sarkazum2: our jg got mad cuz we said not to focus the skuttle and kill the drag, so now he is afk farming sarkazum2: least he aint worth gold sarkazum2: 4v5 is bs sarkazum2: lol, sarkazum2: like you was gonna make the difference sarkazum2: if anything you were gonna get carried sarkazum2: he was sarkazum2: not really sarkazum2: today is last day sarkazum2: why sarkazum2: lee is alrdy just afk farming sarkazum2: i have said nothing to him but he should have focused drag and not skuttle, and told us to stfu sarkazum2: its over sarkazum2: lee to heavy sarkazum2: see he just ints sarkazum2: ez reports sarkazum2: oooo sarkazum2: that was nice doh sarkazum2: teemo in gj sarkazum2: i wont get in trouble sarkazum2: he has been inting I actually liked reading the first half and had faith until i hit this part. Theres probably more but im not gonna bother to read any of it because this shows you probably did the same to someone else in another game.
: Try using > "" for quoting. > Yet they still need to get ahead to be viable later on in the game. No shit? Thats the story of every champ that lacks good teamfight presence. > Assassins are a high risk high reward class for a reason Were. Back in the good ol days they had the risk of dying a lot because they had to fight the enemy. Nowadays they outdamage and will almost always kill them before they get killed (they are however some exceptions). > So calling them "safe" when theyre everything but safe comes off as odd to me to say the least They are safe because most of the times you cant gank them. Every missposition is fixed with the press of their mobility ability. Fizz got ganked? He will q your jungler (if he is behind him) and e to safety. In order to gank them you need to have the jungler around and then wait for them to use their mobility. However if the assassin has a brain he wont use it when the enemy jungler is missing. Sure the assassin wont be able to trade, however the jungler wont be able to do anything because he will be waiting in the bush for the assassin to use his mobility. > They need to take fights to get ahead most are melee and easily poked. Depends on what champ pokes them. Avoiding the poke from xerath or vel is easy. Avoiding poke from malz or liss isnt. Even then they have tools to farm from safety. Zed his q. Talon his w. Kassadin his q. Akali her q. Ekko his q. Katarina her q. And zed akali and kata dont even have mana to manage. And they are also spells that they usually max. > If they ever choose to all in (which you refer to as the mistake) they're easily killed. A full hp zed vs a full hp vel? I doubt. Zed has stronger burst and can move around to dodge his kit. > Take for example zed if he uses his W forward to poke or harass his laner hes now prone to a gank for the next 20 seconds. Indeed. However zed could always w to harass when he knows that he wont get ganked. Crazy i know right? If the enemy jungler is top, he can easily w to poke his enemy. > How often does zed need to use his W to wither down his opponent. Only one actually. After a lethality component he needs w combo to damage heavily an unarmored mage (provided that he lands ofc). If the mage buys armguard he misses mana and cdr. Without that you are free to push and roam. That way you force him to use mana to farm under turret and eventually he will be forced to go b. > whereas mages who are the ones that can have safe laning phases If a mage gets ganked he gets ganked. Unless he is ziggs, lissandra or neeko they wont be able to evade the gank (unless they use flash). > because they can be viable without an influx of gold can play passively and take the game at their own pace Well they have to fucntion like that because a lot of the times they concede lanes to assassins. If they didnt, well why the fuck would you pick mage? Especially when assassins are so popular. > Because its harder to sit back and spam E to farm with lost chapter than it is to try to dominate your lane or at least push in an AoE mage as a melee champ so you can roam. Lux cant spam e to farm. That shit costs a lot of mana and even then its not enough to one shot them. Lux will have to go aa range to finish them. If she also goes lost chapter she can be easily killed as long as the assassin has lethality. You dont try to outpush the mage that has lost chapter. You can but its not advisable. You outright kill them since they are squishy. You just engage them after they use one of their spells to push. The lux that used her e to push wont be able to outdamage you if you engage her immediately. Thats literally trading 101. > Lux at 2 items can wipe a duskblade building zed with 1 snare (ludens + deathcap) Em not possible in an actual scenario. No lux goes dcap after ludens. And even if she does, she is extremely fed. But anyways i will do the same. A zed with 2 items (duskblade + ghostblade) will wipe a lux with ludens if she gets in range. > Lost Chapter + Seekers lux nullifies all of zed's kill potential as well as gives her control of the lane. Yes and no. She has mana to farm and armour to not die immediately. However she delays hard her powerspikes. And zed can still kill her. Although he might have to work a bit more. Also she falls behind in dmg. > Whats unreliable about lux's kit? If you say landing Q i respond with zed has to land 2 Qs at least to match lux's dmg Well her q. In order to burst you, you need to be immobilized. Zed too BUT dodging a q from point blank range is not possible. And he builds duskblade for that 0.25 99% slow. So yeah you wont dodge that q when he ults you. > Hell even some champions like lulu completely nullify zed when played properly Because thats her job dude. To shut down assassins (and divers). Thats like complaining that janna completely nullifies garen. > Whereas lux can safely pump her dmg out from her team's backline while applying cc and shielding her team. Thats her job you know. Just like zed is going to be roaming and picking off lone targets. And if there are none he can just engage when the enemy is busy. > You dont think zed needs to land his Qs to burst his target? Dodging a point blank range q without flash (and under a slow) is not really possible. > Try playing zed and see what happens if you're not fed This applies to most champs. Even champs that bring utility and cc suck ass when you are behind. Try playing ornn when you are still 10 lvl and the enemy top laner is 13. You wont be able to tank shit. > Safe laners are mages since they dont need to get ahead to be viable because of their utility Lol nop. Not all mages are lux. The other mage that brings shield is orianna. Some mages lack strong utility. Xerath and vel for example bring some easily dodgable (and reducable) cc. But no shields. Ahri brings a single target charm. Malz brings aoe silence and a single target suppression. Not every champ has the kit of lux. > Where mages remain strong throughout the entire game assassins fall off https://www.op.gg/champion/fizz/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/kassadin/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/orianna/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/cassiopeia/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/xerath/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/ahri/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle https://www.op.gg/champion/evelynn/statistics/jungle https://www.op.gg/champion/khazix/statistics/jungle My point? They dont exactly fall off. Some of them have good winrate even during late game. And some peak at late game. Conversevely, some mages seem to fall off late game. The whole "mages strong throughout the game and assassins falls off late" is not true anymore. Its far more complicated. > Your gonna need to provide some logic besides "he can W away to get out" because if he doesnt use his W he isnt killing anything without being ahead. As i said earlier he can always w in when the enemy jungler cant interfere with him. If he is around, he is taking precious time from the enemy jungler by drawing his attention. Because thats how a 5v5 game works.
>Lux cant spam e to farm. That shit costs a lot of mana and even then its not enough to one shot them. Lux will have to go aa range to finish them. 90 mana per cast at rank 3 (level 6), 9 sec cooldown. 572 mana pool at level 6. +250 mana from mana flow band. 5 mana regen/ 5sec from dorans ring 11 mana regen/5 sec is her base. And 1% missing mana regen/5 sec from manaflow. In total 822 mana with manaflow band + 16 mana regen/5 sec + 1% missing mana regen/5 sec. Lets ignore the 1% for now. If lux is to spam E with her mana pool alone as it comes off cd. She can cast it 9 times with 12 mana left. 9 casts on a 9 sec cd = 81 sec which means she regen'd back 16.2 * her mana regen/5 which comes out to 259 mana back. add on the 12 mana 271 mana thats good for 3 more casts. 2 casts clear a wave safely. Shes can cast 12 before (lets assume running out of mana) the 9 from her initial mana pool and 3 from her regen. That clears 6 waves. 1 wave spawns every 30 seconds. which means lux is clearing 3 mins of minion waves. before running out of mana and this doesnt include that 1% of missing mana she regens from manaflow. to show how big manaflow can be if lux uses keeps herself at 100 mana, manaflow band alone is giving her 7.22 mana regen. Which gives her back 14 mana every 10 on top of the 32 mana every 10 from her base and dorans. Thats 46 every 10 pretty much meaning she gets 1 free for every 2 casts at that low of mana. And since we only calculated 20 seconds of clearing time and theres 30 sec between waves that a free 10 sec of mana regen which brings her up to around 72 mana regen'd per wave. Shes still losing 108 mana but that means she can clear roughly 8 waves which is 4 mins of straight clearing. >Em not possible in an actual scenario. No lux goes dcap after ludens. And even if she does, she is extremely fed. But anyways i will do the same. A zed with 2 items (duskblade + ghostblade) will wipe a lux with ludens if she gets in range. I had to go back to double check, but then you're proving my original point correct. You said zed scales faster than lux, i told you a 2 item lux can kill just like zed can. And you just agreed that this is the case. >Because thats her job dude. To shut down assassins (and divers). Thats like complaining that janna completely nullifies garen. Thats her job you know. Just like zed is going to be roaming and picking off lone targets. And if there are none he can just engage when the enemy is busy. Thats what ive been saying. This is how assassins fall off and arent as useful as mages in a teamfight. Mages dont have to throw themselves at an enemy and getting cc'd and killed instantly. So they have to wait for the enemy team to make a mistake and position poorly or use their cc poorly before actually contributing to a teamfight. Otherwise they do everything else from outside of teamfights. >Dodging a point blank range q without flash (and under a slow) is not really possible. Unless the zed is fed or the squishy has 0 armor 1 Q isnt going to kill the target. Assuming (E Q Auto after the R), in which case again this is the assassin captializing on the mistake of his opponent. Much like if a squishy target was to accidently walk into lux's bind. She'd insta burst them for making that misstep. >Lol nop. Not all mages are lux. The other mage that brings shield is orianna. Im assuming we're dropping ori from this discussion because shes a safe laner cuz of her shield. >Some mages lack strong utility. Xerath and vel for example bring some easily dodgable (and reducable) cc. But no shields. Ahri brings a single target charm. Malz brings aoe silence and a single target suppression. Not every champ has the kit of lux. Well ahri is a combination of a mage/assassin so im not gonna talk about a hybrid between the 2. Xerath and vel you say lack strong utility but they dont lack it, sure it can be reduced in the case of xerath but that doesnt mean its not there. Malz can literally lock down the assassin who's trying to assassinate him, as well as having a free spell shield. So idk why you'd use him as an example when hes an anti assassin. So xerath and vel were your two example i think ziggs is another one that falls under this category and what do they all have in common as artillery mages? Their insanely high ranged spells. Xerath we know has long range spells. Ziggs can bounce his bombs to extend their range without losing the AoE on them as well as set up mines ahead of time where he knows minions will run over. And has a little bit of mobility and mobility and cc in his saddle charge. Finally velkoz has longer range with his Q if you shoot it at certain angles as well as a W that has no cast or channel time. Allowing him to move continously at the same movespeed. >My point? They dont exactly fall off. Some of them have good winrate even during late game. And some peak at late game. Conversevely, some mages seem to fall off late game. The whole "mages strong throughout the game and assassins falls off late" is not true anymore. Its far more complicated. I've said this before in this post and ill post here it again what your statistics show are that playing assassins is easier capitalize on player mistakes. What this doesnt show, is that mages are weaker late game than assassins. Like i told we're not debating which class do players have an easier time playing. We're debating whether the assassin class falls off. Statistically you'd have to use an assassin's dmg numbers or a logical argument where the concept of our current assassins make them stronger late game than our current mages. Bringing up numbers that assassins are better at punishing players who refuse to group means little to nothing. Theres a few assassins i dont agree with and feel they need to be changed. And ill list the 3. 1. Pyke 2. Evelynn 3. Qiyana All 3 of these break the mold of what an assasin has always been. All 3 apply hard cc pyke being more so over the others. And Qiyana's ult gives her too much cc with her root from the water element Q. There may be more assassins who can fall under this category but i cant think of them atm. These 3 are ones that come to mind when i think of those who are breaking the mold of what an assassin should be. >As i said earlier he can always w in when the enemy jungler cant interfere with him. If he is around, he is taking precious time from the enemy jungler by drawing his attention. Because thats how a 5v5 game works. I answered this one previously within this response so i wont repeat it again here unless you specifically want me to.
: Try using > "" for quoting. > Yet they still need to get ahead to be viable later on in the game. No shit? Thats the story of every champ that lacks good teamfight presence. > Assassins are a high risk high reward class for a reason Were. Back in the good ol days they had the risk of dying a lot because they had to fight the enemy. Nowadays they outdamage and will almost always kill them before they get killed (they are however some exceptions). > So calling them "safe" when theyre everything but safe comes off as odd to me to say the least They are safe because most of the times you cant gank them. Every missposition is fixed with the press of their mobility ability. Fizz got ganked? He will q your jungler (if he is behind him) and e to safety. In order to gank them you need to have the jungler around and then wait for them to use their mobility. However if the assassin has a brain he wont use it when the enemy jungler is missing. Sure the assassin wont be able to trade, however the jungler wont be able to do anything because he will be waiting in the bush for the assassin to use his mobility. > They need to take fights to get ahead most are melee and easily poked. Depends on what champ pokes them. Avoiding the poke from xerath or vel is easy. Avoiding poke from malz or liss isnt. Even then they have tools to farm from safety. Zed his q. Talon his w. Kassadin his q. Akali her q. Ekko his q. Katarina her q. And zed akali and kata dont even have mana to manage. And they are also spells that they usually max. > If they ever choose to all in (which you refer to as the mistake) they're easily killed. A full hp zed vs a full hp vel? I doubt. Zed has stronger burst and can move around to dodge his kit. > Take for example zed if he uses his W forward to poke or harass his laner hes now prone to a gank for the next 20 seconds. Indeed. However zed could always w to harass when he knows that he wont get ganked. Crazy i know right? If the enemy jungler is top, he can easily w to poke his enemy. > How often does zed need to use his W to wither down his opponent. Only one actually. After a lethality component he needs w combo to damage heavily an unarmored mage (provided that he lands ofc). If the mage buys armguard he misses mana and cdr. Without that you are free to push and roam. That way you force him to use mana to farm under turret and eventually he will be forced to go b. > whereas mages who are the ones that can have safe laning phases If a mage gets ganked he gets ganked. Unless he is ziggs, lissandra or neeko they wont be able to evade the gank (unless they use flash). > because they can be viable without an influx of gold can play passively and take the game at their own pace Well they have to fucntion like that because a lot of the times they concede lanes to assassins. If they didnt, well why the fuck would you pick mage? Especially when assassins are so popular. > Because its harder to sit back and spam E to farm with lost chapter than it is to try to dominate your lane or at least push in an AoE mage as a melee champ so you can roam. Lux cant spam e to farm. That shit costs a lot of mana and even then its not enough to one shot them. Lux will have to go aa range to finish them. If she also goes lost chapter she can be easily killed as long as the assassin has lethality. You dont try to outpush the mage that has lost chapter. You can but its not advisable. You outright kill them since they are squishy. You just engage them after they use one of their spells to push. The lux that used her e to push wont be able to outdamage you if you engage her immediately. Thats literally trading 101. > Lux at 2 items can wipe a duskblade building zed with 1 snare (ludens + deathcap) Em not possible in an actual scenario. No lux goes dcap after ludens. And even if she does, she is extremely fed. But anyways i will do the same. A zed with 2 items (duskblade + ghostblade) will wipe a lux with ludens if she gets in range. > Lost Chapter + Seekers lux nullifies all of zed's kill potential as well as gives her control of the lane. Yes and no. She has mana to farm and armour to not die immediately. However she delays hard her powerspikes. And zed can still kill her. Although he might have to work a bit more. Also she falls behind in dmg. > Whats unreliable about lux's kit? If you say landing Q i respond with zed has to land 2 Qs at least to match lux's dmg Well her q. In order to burst you, you need to be immobilized. Zed too BUT dodging a q from point blank range is not possible. And he builds duskblade for that 0.25 99% slow. So yeah you wont dodge that q when he ults you. > Hell even some champions like lulu completely nullify zed when played properly Because thats her job dude. To shut down assassins (and divers). Thats like complaining that janna completely nullifies garen. > Whereas lux can safely pump her dmg out from her team's backline while applying cc and shielding her team. Thats her job you know. Just like zed is going to be roaming and picking off lone targets. And if there are none he can just engage when the enemy is busy. > You dont think zed needs to land his Qs to burst his target? Dodging a point blank range q without flash (and under a slow) is not really possible. > Try playing zed and see what happens if you're not fed This applies to most champs. Even champs that bring utility and cc suck ass when you are behind. Try playing ornn when you are still 10 lvl and the enemy top laner is 13. You wont be able to tank shit. > Safe laners are mages since they dont need to get ahead to be viable because of their utility Lol nop. Not all mages are lux. The other mage that brings shield is orianna. Some mages lack strong utility. Xerath and vel for example bring some easily dodgable (and reducable) cc. But no shields. Ahri brings a single target charm. Malz brings aoe silence and a single target suppression. Not every champ has the kit of lux. > Where mages remain strong throughout the entire game assassins fall off https://www.op.gg/champion/fizz/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/kassadin/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/orianna/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/cassiopeia/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/xerath/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/ahri/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle https://www.op.gg/champion/evelynn/statistics/jungle https://www.op.gg/champion/khazix/statistics/jungle My point? They dont exactly fall off. Some of them have good winrate even during late game. And some peak at late game. Conversevely, some mages seem to fall off late game. The whole "mages strong throughout the game and assassins falls off late" is not true anymore. Its far more complicated. > Your gonna need to provide some logic besides "he can W away to get out" because if he doesnt use his W he isnt killing anything without being ahead. As i said earlier he can always w in when the enemy jungler cant interfere with him. If he is around, he is taking precious time from the enemy jungler by drawing his attention. Because thats how a 5v5 game works.
>No shit? Thats the story of every champ that lacks good teamfight presence. So how is this idea safe? You're literally agreeing with my point. That assassins have to play aggressive to get ahead so they dont become useless later on, and then you turn around and say theyre safe. >Were. Back in the good ol days they had the risk of dying a lot because they had to fight the enemy. Nowadays they outdamage and will almost always kill them before they get killed (they are however some exceptions). No this isnt what the "high risk high reward" means. The risk of locking in an assassin is if you dont get fed you become useless. So at the risk of becoming useless you pick a champ that IF you get fed can shut down 1 enemy champion. This is what "high risk high reward" references. Every champion in the game can burst a squishy character when building full dmg and they dont outdmg, adcs played properly and with the same gold will always do more dmg than any assassin given the adc isnt executed. The assassin does more burst dmg than an adc but doesnt have the sustained dps to keep up with an adc. Mages can match the burst of an assassin if not beat it once they have 4-5 items while also providing utility in the form of hard cc/shields. >They are safe because most of the times you cant gank them. Every missposition is fixed with the press of their mobility ability. Fizz got ganked? He will q your jungler (if he is behind him) and e to safety. In order to gank them you need to have the jungler around and then wait for them to use their mobility. However if the assassin has a brain he wont use it when the enemy jungler is missing. Sure the assassin wont be able to trade, however the jungler wont be able to do anything because he will be waiting in the bush for the assassin to use his mobility. 1. Thats poor positioning from the jungler but this response is besides the main point i will make to answer this. Main point: You cant gank them if their abilities are up but theyre also melee and are easily harassed. Remove their mobility and they cant get on top of their targets. Take away this ability to escape ganks and they now become targets as melee immobile targets who need to do well early to be useful later. So they have to play aggressive and they arent even safe while playing passively? That'd make them unplayable. Again id respond to this by asking, Why would i play fizz if he's prone to being killed early AND needs to get a lead to be as relevant as a mage? Your basically saying to take away the benefits of playing an assassin when that will just kill off the entire class. >They are safe because most of the times you cant gank them. Every missposition is fixed with the press of their mobility ability. Fizz got ganked? He will q your jungler (if he is behind him) and e to safety. In order to gank them you need to have the jungler around and then wait for them to use their mobility. However if the assassin has a brain he wont use it when the enemy jungler is missing. So who's hand is in control of the lane? Assasin- The mage has to position poorly AND the enemy jungle has to be on the map at the same time. Mage- Harass the assassin from range while he tries to farm until hes low enough to full combo down with your cc to lock him down. (this could end up poking the assassin out of lane and forcing him to fall behind by missing cs) >Depends on what champ pokes them. Avoiding the poke from xerath or vel is easy. Avoiding poke from malz or liss isnt. What determines what champs can poke "easily" and which ones cant. I wouldnt say avoiding xerath's poke is easy, I would say its a bad xerath if hes missing most of his poke. When played properly its incredibly hard to dodge "poke" because they'd be poking every time you try to get a minion. Which means you either get the minion and take the poke or miss the minion and fall behind in gold. This requires the mage player understand timing. Because a champion's auto attack or ability cast is a "mini root" for lack of better words which means the champion cant move for a really small duration which is just enough time to poke them with an ability. Rinse and repeat until they have to back or you can all in them. Zed's Q Kat's Q Akali's Q Talon W all shove the wave putting the mage in the position in the lane they want to be in and forcing the assassin to push up in lane and lose their kill potential on the mage without turret diving or opening themselves to a gank. >A full hp zed vs a full hp vel? I doubt. Zed has stronger burst and can move around to dodge his kit. Because walking up to a velkoz as zed is should be a walk in the park. The vel should never be in range for zed to ult and if zed W's into vel and ults well he just lost 1 of his dodges. And his other dodge is returning to his R so if vel puts his E where zed is coming out with that short delay on his R cast vel gets a full combo on zed and now zed needs to decide does he take R back and lose his chance to kill vel or does he still attempt to finish his all and soak the entire vel R while also probably being in tower range and being slowed by vel's ult assuming the state the lane should be in, in this matchup. But even if we ignore the state of the lane velkoz's full combo does 726 dmg with 0 AP at level 6 where zed has 920 hp. This doesnt include comet, coup de grace, or scorch and obviously not the free 12 AP from runes or any AP from items or ignite. Assuming Vel'z combo is E W Q R casted on zed as he comes out of his ultimate delay. This would also mean vel still has a W stack left if that doesnt kill zed. (This is also applying zed's base magic resist). Where as zed's full combo ulting landing 2 Qs and his E is 381 dmg (applying vel's base armor) where vel's hp is 868 at level 6. This isnt taking into consideration coup de grace or electrocute. Ill leave the zed auto attacks to your discretion to say if its going to make up the 345 dmg zed does less than velkoz. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Vel%27Koz https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Zed https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_resistance https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18920w/armor_chart_for_damage_reduction/ >Indeed. However zed could always w to harass when he knows that he wont get ganked. Crazy i know right? If the enemy jungler is top, he can easily w to poke his enemy. Which means the mage knows this and can back up and play more safely during these 10-20 seconds. Crazy i know right? >After a lethality component he needs w combo to damage heavily an unarmored mage (provided that he lands ofc). If the mage buys armguard he misses mana and cdr. Lost chapter doesnt give cdr and both hourglass and ludens give 10% so you're not missing out on cdr. As for mana, manaflow band is more than enough as long as you're conserving your mana instead of spamming it however you like. And as i just showed with the math all it takes is 1 good combo from a velkoz to kill an assassin taking out 80% of the target's health with 0 AP and no comet or runes. Looking passed that the mage has a ranged vs melee advantage to harass the assassin. Oddly enough you mention the assassin only needs to harass the mage once before all inning whereas you never mention that means during those 20 seconds the mage can harass the assassin 2-3 times during the cd of his W and where the mage doesnt even need it to burst the assassin. >If a mage gets ganked he gets ganked. Unless he is ziggs, lissandra or neeko they wont be able to evade the gank (unless they use flash). Because you know they dont have hard cc. Vel E xerath E Lux Q Ori movespeed buffs and debuffs and her R (if it comes to that). Mobility isnt the only thing to help you avoid ganks. >Well they have to fucntion like that because a lot of the times they concede lanes to assassins. If they didnt, well why the fuck would you pick mage? Especially when assassins are so popular. They dont concede lanes to assassins. Not all the time at least. A poorly played assassin vs a mage will give the win to a mage, in the same notion that a poorly played mage will give the win to an assassin. Its not about which is stronger but which plays properly understanding their situation. Im not going to bring up players into this discussion because when discussing this topic its about the concept not how its played. If we're going to bring human interaction into if something is balanced or not, then you need 2 individuals who are equally skilled at the game, which will never be the case, so using what usually happens in lanes as a balance constraint when players make mistakes is a terrible argument. What you're saying is. "if assassins can capitalize on my mistakes, then we should nerf them until the mistakes lead to balanced output in the lane". Which in that sense would mean mages would be stronger up until x amount of mistakes are made (whatever number you want to define). Which again would be an absurd argument to make.
: Try using > "" for quoting. > Yet they still need to get ahead to be viable later on in the game. No shit? Thats the story of every champ that lacks good teamfight presence. > Assassins are a high risk high reward class for a reason Were. Back in the good ol days they had the risk of dying a lot because they had to fight the enemy. Nowadays they outdamage and will almost always kill them before they get killed (they are however some exceptions). > So calling them "safe" when theyre everything but safe comes off as odd to me to say the least They are safe because most of the times you cant gank them. Every missposition is fixed with the press of their mobility ability. Fizz got ganked? He will q your jungler (if he is behind him) and e to safety. In order to gank them you need to have the jungler around and then wait for them to use their mobility. However if the assassin has a brain he wont use it when the enemy jungler is missing. Sure the assassin wont be able to trade, however the jungler wont be able to do anything because he will be waiting in the bush for the assassin to use his mobility. > They need to take fights to get ahead most are melee and easily poked. Depends on what champ pokes them. Avoiding the poke from xerath or vel is easy. Avoiding poke from malz or liss isnt. Even then they have tools to farm from safety. Zed his q. Talon his w. Kassadin his q. Akali her q. Ekko his q. Katarina her q. And zed akali and kata dont even have mana to manage. And they are also spells that they usually max. > If they ever choose to all in (which you refer to as the mistake) they're easily killed. A full hp zed vs a full hp vel? I doubt. Zed has stronger burst and can move around to dodge his kit. > Take for example zed if he uses his W forward to poke or harass his laner hes now prone to a gank for the next 20 seconds. Indeed. However zed could always w to harass when he knows that he wont get ganked. Crazy i know right? If the enemy jungler is top, he can easily w to poke his enemy. > How often does zed need to use his W to wither down his opponent. Only one actually. After a lethality component he needs w combo to damage heavily an unarmored mage (provided that he lands ofc). If the mage buys armguard he misses mana and cdr. Without that you are free to push and roam. That way you force him to use mana to farm under turret and eventually he will be forced to go b. > whereas mages who are the ones that can have safe laning phases If a mage gets ganked he gets ganked. Unless he is ziggs, lissandra or neeko they wont be able to evade the gank (unless they use flash). > because they can be viable without an influx of gold can play passively and take the game at their own pace Well they have to fucntion like that because a lot of the times they concede lanes to assassins. If they didnt, well why the fuck would you pick mage? Especially when assassins are so popular. > Because its harder to sit back and spam E to farm with lost chapter than it is to try to dominate your lane or at least push in an AoE mage as a melee champ so you can roam. Lux cant spam e to farm. That shit costs a lot of mana and even then its not enough to one shot them. Lux will have to go aa range to finish them. If she also goes lost chapter she can be easily killed as long as the assassin has lethality. You dont try to outpush the mage that has lost chapter. You can but its not advisable. You outright kill them since they are squishy. You just engage them after they use one of their spells to push. The lux that used her e to push wont be able to outdamage you if you engage her immediately. Thats literally trading 101. > Lux at 2 items can wipe a duskblade building zed with 1 snare (ludens + deathcap) Em not possible in an actual scenario. No lux goes dcap after ludens. And even if she does, she is extremely fed. But anyways i will do the same. A zed with 2 items (duskblade + ghostblade) will wipe a lux with ludens if she gets in range. > Lost Chapter + Seekers lux nullifies all of zed's kill potential as well as gives her control of the lane. Yes and no. She has mana to farm and armour to not die immediately. However she delays hard her powerspikes. And zed can still kill her. Although he might have to work a bit more. Also she falls behind in dmg. > Whats unreliable about lux's kit? If you say landing Q i respond with zed has to land 2 Qs at least to match lux's dmg Well her q. In order to burst you, you need to be immobilized. Zed too BUT dodging a q from point blank range is not possible. And he builds duskblade for that 0.25 99% slow. So yeah you wont dodge that q when he ults you. > Hell even some champions like lulu completely nullify zed when played properly Because thats her job dude. To shut down assassins (and divers). Thats like complaining that janna completely nullifies garen. > Whereas lux can safely pump her dmg out from her team's backline while applying cc and shielding her team. Thats her job you know. Just like zed is going to be roaming and picking off lone targets. And if there are none he can just engage when the enemy is busy. > You dont think zed needs to land his Qs to burst his target? Dodging a point blank range q without flash (and under a slow) is not really possible. > Try playing zed and see what happens if you're not fed This applies to most champs. Even champs that bring utility and cc suck ass when you are behind. Try playing ornn when you are still 10 lvl and the enemy top laner is 13. You wont be able to tank shit. > Safe laners are mages since they dont need to get ahead to be viable because of their utility Lol nop. Not all mages are lux. The other mage that brings shield is orianna. Some mages lack strong utility. Xerath and vel for example bring some easily dodgable (and reducable) cc. But no shields. Ahri brings a single target charm. Malz brings aoe silence and a single target suppression. Not every champ has the kit of lux. > Where mages remain strong throughout the entire game assassins fall off https://www.op.gg/champion/fizz/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/kassadin/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/orianna/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/cassiopeia/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/xerath/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/ahri/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle https://www.op.gg/champion/evelynn/statistics/jungle https://www.op.gg/champion/khazix/statistics/jungle My point? They dont exactly fall off. Some of them have good winrate even during late game. And some peak at late game. Conversevely, some mages seem to fall off late game. The whole "mages strong throughout the game and assassins falls off late" is not true anymore. Its far more complicated. > Your gonna need to provide some logic besides "he can W away to get out" because if he doesnt use his W he isnt killing anything without being ahead. As i said earlier he can always w in when the enemy jungler cant interfere with him. If he is around, he is taking precious time from the enemy jungler by drawing his attention. Because thats how a 5v5 game works.
>Try using > "" for quoting. Thanks for this just testing it
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZI0k4QyV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-13T21:06:13.007+0000) > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/WIJ900vK-set-bonuses-for-season-10? > > You never know maybe riot is doing this. The lethality set bonuses idea was scrapped.
I wish it wasnt it had so much potential for other classes as well.
: Bad games happen to everyone. Even pro players. But when you consistently get 4cs/m in over 100 games, That some pretty undeniable proof of bad pathing. I don't even understand how you can try to argue that point of all things. Can you be invaded or miss some farm some games ? sure! But in over 100 games they haven't gotten an average cs higher then 4.5 (if we are being generous) This isnt micro mistakes. You know that you can see how many camps they have cleared from their stats page right ? In 1 game (20 mins long) he cleared his jungle on noc twice the entire game... Explain how you think this is good pathing.
Are you comparing him to where he could be or where he should be for his elo? Because if you're expecting him to path like a master's player and if he doesnt he's pathing incorrectly and that means "jg difference" than thats a terrible assumption on your part. Im curious what you think the average cs/min a silver player who jungles gets.
: > When marksman and mages are putting up numbers in as high and can do it more consistently and safe whats the point of playing an assassin Assassins have a much safer lane because of their mobility. You cant gank a lb, fizz, zed or talon without them making a huge mistake. > . Why would i want to play lets say zed who has 0 hard cc and needs 14-20 seconds for his combo because his W and can burst kill one target after 3.5 seconds (.5 seconds for the delay time on his ult and 3 seconds before the pop) when i can play lux gain hard cc, range and the utility of mage items and also bring shields to my team while bursting targets with Q E R combo from a safe range away. Why would one want to play zed over lux? Because zed has a much easier and safer laning phase. He scales faster than lux. He can get out after a fight and lastly his kit is much more reliable. For lux to burst someome she needs to land her q which is skillshot. For zed to burst someone he has to get in range for his r.
"Assassins have a much safer lane because of their mobility. You cant gank a lb, fizz, zed or talon without them making a huge mistake." Yet they still need to get ahead to be viable later on in the game. Assassins are a high risk high reward class for a reason. So calling them "safe" when theyre everything but safe comes off as odd to me to say the least. They need to take fights to get ahead most are melee and easily poked. If they ever choose to all in (which you refer to as the mistake) they're easily killed. Take for example zed if he uses his W forward to poke or harass his laner hes now prone to a gank for the next 20 seconds. How is that safe? How often does zed need to use his W to wither down his opponent. Mayb 2-3 casts of his W before R'ing to finish them. You're looking at 40 seconds to 1 min of not being safe in lane, whereas mages who are the ones that can have safe laning phases because they can be viable without an influx of gold can play passively and take the game at their own pace and still scale up into monsters. "Why would one want to play zed over lux? Because zed has a much easier and safer laning phase" Because its harder to sit back and spam E to farm with lost chapter than it is to try to dominate your lane or at least push in an AoE mage as a melee champ so you can roam. "He scales faster than lux" You mean he reaches a power spike before lux? That is completely different from scaling. Lux at 2 items can wipe a duskblade building zed with 1 snare (ludens + deathcap). Lost Chapter + Seekers lux nullifies all of zed's kill potential as well as gives her control of the lane. "lastly his kit is much more reliable." Whats unreliable about lux's kit? If you say landing Q i respond with zed has to land 2 Qs at least to match lux's dmg as well as having to do it in a timeframe before GA's and hourglass come into play. Hell even some champions like lulu completely nullify zed when played properly. Whereas lux can safely pump her dmg out from her team's backline while applying cc and shielding her team. "For lux to burst someome she needs to land her q which is skillshot. For zed to burst someone he has to get in range for his r." You dont think zed needs to land his Qs to burst his target? Try playing zed and see what happens if you're not fed. So many things you've said in this post are false and are actually the opposite. Safe laners are mages since they dont need to get ahead to be viable because of their utility while assassins need to get ahead to be useful to their teams. Where mages remain strong throughout the entire game assassins fall off. Your gonna need to provide some logic besides "he can W away to get out" because if he doesnt use his W he isnt killing anything without being ahead.
HeeroTX (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPYB36qx,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T20:20:31.492+0000) > > "If you're high elo, then you're playing the META, PERIOD" > What about all the one tricks who reached high elo. First name that comes to mind is Pink ward on his AP shaco where everyone said he couldnt do it. Back to my original point. If you can play Kayn such that you stomp EVERYONE then play whatever you want, but if you NEED me to protect your jungle, then more times than not, you're GOING to lose. Which is the point I was making with late game champs. I don't know if you noticed, but Riot doesn't WANT what has traditionally been "late game" anymore. They want games over in 20-25 mins. Is it POSSIBLE to extend games longer? Sure. But if YOU can't make that happen with your chosen pick then that is on YOU. Yeah, I totally get mid & late game champs as a concept, but they don't WORK in this META. I don't LIKE that, I want Riot to change that, but that IS the way things are right now. And its worst with jg, I'm sorry, if you're playing a "late game" jungle, then you're screwing your team. The enemy is going to gank early and often and by the time you're online your team is way behind and probably screwed. Regarding drake, we're not going to agree. If you get full vision and knowledge before doing it, then that's great, good job, ok your adcs are morons, but 90% of low elo jgs don't do that and even so, I have no faith in you to turn the team fight in a 3 v 2+dragon if you're asking me to protect your jungle, because that says you can't beat their jg head to head.
Do you know what late game means? All late game refers to is when team's start grouping to team fight. It has nothing to do with the mins spent in game. early game is laning phase. Mid game are skirmishes the 2v2s and 3v3s, late game is when teams group together to fight team vs team. (4v4s if split pushers are involved and 5v5s). And so you claim to know riot's intentions but failed to see that theyre emphasizing teamwork over solo carrying? Kayle Fiora Jax top lane are all S tier champs Yi hecarim karthus jax kayn jungle are all S tier champs Kass Katarina S tier champs in mid lane Ashe caitlyn Vayne Jinx Yasuo all S tier champs in bot lane And for supports i dont feel theres any really scalers or i dont know the lane well enough to make these claims, i feel like their roles more speak to what they do rather then their strong points in game. So idk how you say they dont work if 14 champs out of the 4 roles in the highest tier are mid to late game champs. https://u.gg/lol/tier-list So all you essentially did was make a bunch of assumptions and build your entire post off that assumption. " because that says you can't beat their jg head to head." it doesnt say that actually, thats like me saying i shouldnt gank a lane if its behind a little because that says you cant beat their bot lane head to head. Theres alot of factors involved in deciding that, but im beginning to see this discussion is fruitless since you ignored half my counterpoints to you and summed it all up to "great good job" when in reality what we were talking about is the concepts of how to jungle correctly. This had nothing to do with specific instances and more about the general way of jungling. And you avoided all of the points i made either because you're too lazy to type a response/read what i typed or you dont have a counter point to it and refuse to just admit that you may have been short sighted when it comes to junglers.
: If you report this thread I'll get my mod friends to just ignore it.
Careful someone might pull the NB3 argument on you.
Kshaway (NA)
: Why is preseason adding more lethality?
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/WIJ900vK-set-bonuses-for-season-10? You never know maybe riot is doing this.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=E4tHv1Jy,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-11-13T18:13:01.142+0000) > > whats the point of playing an assassin? Target access and mobility. Sure, mages can put out the big numbers, but if they want to do it safely, then they have to be further away, which then means it's easier to dodge their skills. Plus, you're going to need someone to be able to get onto those high value targets that are behind their tank lines. > Push back the assassins to take longer than they already do Not every assassin needs to take longer (small point of contention: barely any assassins actually currently have even a moderately lengthy TTK). Akali could though, as her kit already has all the aspects in it that are necessary for that to happen.
You missed the point i was trying to make and maybe i wasnt clear enough. What i was saying, if you extend the duration of the assassin's combo to assassinate their target which they use their mobility to access that target, but the target does more burst dmg than they do (considering the current state of the game), why would anyone play an assassin. Sure you could get on top of your target but if you cant kill them before they kill you all your efforts are meaningless and actually a negative to your team. I mean when you look at champions like zed, fizz, rengar, eve they all have a set up to their assassination (rengar and eve not as much because their stealth) but zed is the perfect example with the deathmark taking over 3 seconds to finally come into effect. In 3 seconds most squishy targets can kill zed before that goes off. So again for lacking cc and range they gain burst and mobility take away that burst and theyre pretty much running to their deaths. I do agree that many assassins dont take long to kill currently but i dont feel its due to the kit of the assassins and instead due to the insane amounts of dmg and lack of defense in the game currently.
HeeroTX (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPYB36qx,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T17:39:23.037+0000) > > Playing kayn can get you invaded often for his weak early game, but that doesnt mean the kayn is **misplaying** whereas your example as kog'maw you are misplaying by positioning yourself poorly. If you're playing Kayn jg and you don't know how to at least stay EVEN during lane phase, then you don't know how to play him well. If you're high elo, then you're playing the META, PERIOD. If you're low elo, then you CAN play anything and do well a good portion of the time if you're really skilled on your chosen champ. If you can't win with the champ, then DON'T PLAY IT IN RANKED. (And if a "counterpick" in LOW elo can screw you that hard, then you don't play it well) > This is a terrible example and heres why. Majority of the time when the jungler is taking drake the adc if farming an open lane where the enemy bot either just died or recalled. So the play would be to get the drake before they have the chance to collapse, but lets assume the enemy bot is in lane and you're "pressuring" them. What ends up happening to an adc in a 1v2? My lane can be in one of three states: 1. I'm pushed under tower (if this is the case, then you shouldn't be taking drake, you should be ganking) 2. We're "even" in middle of lane (positionally speaking, champ advantage can be anything), in this state you still shouldn't do drake because if I go they WILL follow and we're going to have a fight, may as well gank and take them out (or push them off) FIRST 3. Enemy team is pushed (or in "fog of war") a. If enemy is pushed under tower and I can't hold them there (even 2v1) for at least 10 secs, then I suck as an adc unless they're baiting a gank in which case drake is bad idea anyway. If they're able to push out then I just drift up and either help rush it down for the smite or block them to give you time to smite. If I'm in the pit immediately, they just rotate up to block. At best we have a 3v2 with dragon doing damage to us, at worst they let us take damage and their jg uses us as leash. b. If they in FoW, then ideally I go to drake, BUT we need to know where they are. Standard low elo play is: 1-Ping Dragon, 2-Drop ward to enemy side of pit, 3-Start dragon; if dragon isn't either dead or smitable when enemies appear in vision then we're gonna get dove by opponents that more often than not have more health. And if you're complaining about team not protecting your jungle early then I don't like your odds of winning that fight Bottom line: if they're all top and I don't rotate, yeah, that's totally on me for not paying attention, but if you're calling dragon and we don't know where half the team is, then I'm not gonna agree with that call, ESPECIALLY if (as has happened numerous times) you've proven you'll just ditch me if things go sideways. > No matter how you look at it securing a neutral objective as quickly as possible is more beneficial to the team. This is only true IF you secure it. If you call drake and it takes us (collectively) 15 secs to kill and 7 secs in people wanna bail because here comes the enemy team, then I've lost lane pressure AND cs for your bad call. This is why the pros MAKE SURE the enemy is gone before they do the neutral objectives (or have a large advantage). Also, if I ping for a gank when I'm under turret or (worse) ping for drake when I've done the hard part of clearing the area and you ignore me to farm up some more, then I ain't gonna feel real motivated to follow your pings simply because NOW its convenient to you. (and this right here is playing with for 4 randos in solo-q in a nutshell) TL;DR; - I'll follow your call if it seems tactically sound, but I'll try to assist you my OWN way if I don't think you know what you're doing.
"If you're high elo, then you're playing the META, PERIOD" What about all the one tricks who reached high elo. First name that comes to mind is Pink ward on his AP shaco where everyone said he couldnt do it. "If you're playing Kayn jg and you don't know how to at least stay EVEN during lane phase," If you're playing a mid to late game champ you're not playing to just stay even you can be a little behind but that takes us off the point of this discussion so its a red herring to even say this. Since it has nothing to do with jungle pressure or taking objectives. Asking a mid to late game champion to stay even with an early game is outright illogical. Thats like saying trynd should be able to keep up with darius. " I'm pushed under tower (if this is the case, then you shouldn't be taking drake, you should be ganking)" Its like you didnt even read the assumptions we were making about the lane which YOU brought up. It was right here "but lets assume the enemy bot is in lane and you're "pressuring" them" "We're "even" in middle of lane (positionally speaking, champ advantage can be anything), in this state you still shouldn't do drake because if I go they WILL follow and we're going to have a fight, may as well gank and take them out (or push them off) FIRST" If the enemy jungler is top collapsing on a 3v2 in our favor would be dumb of the enemy. In other cases sure dont do drake but again this has nothing to do with you staying bot and "pressuring" while the support helps at drake in which case again red herring argument. " If enemy is pushed under tower and I can't hold them there (even 2v1) for at least 10 secs, then I suck as an adc unless they're baiting a gank in which case drake is bad idea anyway." Again an assumption this is dependent on the skill level of the players you're against and the champions you're against and the summoners you have up, but again why hold them when they either come to drake to stall us and lose cs or stay bot and lose drake. Its a lose lose situation for them. So either way we're winning. Why would you stay in lane and potentially cause a snowball in the lane? That makes no sense. "If they're able to push out then I just drift up and either help rush it down for the smite or block them to give you time to smite." In which case you're risking death over just not coming to drake to finish it while they had to clear wave. The smart move is to give the opponent 2 options where they lose in both options: come to drake= miss cs, get your cs = lose drake. This is how you take small wins and snowball into larger leads. "If I'm in the pit immediately, they just rotate up to block." You're referring to taking drake blindly which in any case isnt the correct way to play. Are we debating about how to play correctly or incorrectly? Doing drake while they have vision is terrible especially when you dont know where the jungle is. on top of that theres so many ways to clear (sweepers, control wards, plants) that theres no reason to clear the pit before doing drake. "If they in FoW, then ideally I go to drake, BUT we need to know where they are." This is a contradiction in itself. If theyre in fog of war we wont know where they are. So you basically said "if theyre not on the map i go drake, but we need to see them on map." What does that even mean? "if dragon isn't either dead or smitable when enemies appear in vision then we're gonna get dove by opponents that more often than not have more health. And if you're complaining about team not protecting your jungle early then I don't like your odds of winning that fight" Theres 2 times you take an objective. When you're stronger and want to force a fight, or when you want to rush the objective down before the opposing team can get to you. The whole idea of "sneaking" objectives which some people use is bs it shouldnt be done. Its a risky call to sneak but thats besides the point. The point here is when you go to drake you should have already decided if you're going to turn on enemies or burst the objective down. "This is only true IF you secure it. If you call drake and it takes us (collectively) 15 secs to kill and 7 secs in people wanna bail because here comes the enemy team, then I've lost lane pressure AND cs for your bad call. This is why the pros MAKE SURE the enemy is gone before they do the neutral objectives (or have a large advantage)." Ive answered this in this post when talking about intentions when taking objectives so i wont waste your time to read the same thing again. "Also, if I ping for a gank when I'm under turret or (worse) ping for drake when I've done the hard part of clearing the area and you ignore me to farm up some more, then I ain't gonna feel real motivated to follow your pings simply because NOW its convenient to you. (and this right here is playing with for 4 randos in solo-q in a nutshell)" Well heres the thing if im top side when you choose to clear and ping and you dont get the help your asking for right away thats on you. Its not the jungle's fault if you cant prep yourself to line up according to his pathing (assuming hes pathing correctly). So if im bot side and your pushed to their turret and then i begin to path to top side and i pass mid lane and your pinging for help, dont expect me to turn around leave my camps up to run bot and waste 8-12 seconds running down there for a gank on your lane because you didnt manage your wave properly. "TL;DR; - I'll follow your call if it seems tactically sound, but I'll try to assist you my OWN way if I don't think you know what you're doing." And the problem with this, as an adc you only know your strength relative to the enemy bot lane, as a jungler who's been active and knows whats going on on the map, i know which lanes are stronger and who can help out in which places. I have more knowledge about the overall state of the game because ive been all over the map. So with your limited intel you make a decision which ruins the call im making because you THINK you know something more when you dont. Hopefully this helps you see things from a jungler's perspective better.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=XkYeEKnE,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T02:20:46.428+0000) > > And who's gonna pay for someone to watch footage all day of salty kids dropping reports on players? The... billion dollar company?
So to satisfy your saltiness a company needs to pay at least 300k per year (30k to 10 people) to be watching league games around the clock for the massive amount of reports being dropped by players? Thats your idea of a solution?
: Do you guys think Yasuo needs a buff or a nerf?
Only change id make to yasuo is remove his passive shield until he hit 100% crit rate giving him a spike in which case they could increase the strength of the shield to make him more centered around dueling while still allowing him to have his teamfight impact, but weakening his laning phase so hes more prone to being killed if played poorly.
: So this one is going to be a hot take: Akali had a better design potential when she had obscurity on her shroud. Here's why: One of the main problems assassins have had throughout the years is the lower counterplay they can have when they get rolling, due to how fast they are able to get off their entire kit. Riot has tired several times to extend their burst window, usually to poor results (for example: the season 7 assassin update, which has resulted in 2 reverts). However, one of the best things that they did with Akali is the fact that they extended her burst window **without** it feeling completely tacked on and horrible to play. Her rhythm of moving in and out of her passive ring, as well as the bulk of her damage loaded behind that enhanced auto means that there is a natural timer on how quickly she can deal her burst. That timer is something that the obscurity greatly helped. With the strong safety tool that she had in her shroud, Riot could afford to move damage away from her abilities (her up-front burst), and into her passive autos (the regulated damage). Granted, there were other problems. One of them namely being *how* quickly she was able to re-stealth after attacking (which could cause in-flight autos to just cancel). In my opinion, a healthier Akali would be one that has her stronger in-combat safety tools back, but at the cost of lower up-front ability damage. Something perhaps like: > * Re-adding a revised Obscurity to her shroud. This version would have a much more opponent forgiving re-stealth window, would drop turret agro when initially used, and would give her a permanent reveal shimmer when under turret. * Shorten the base duration, but re-add the incentive to drop in and out of shroud to extend the length. When deployed under turret range, her shroud would last a *significantly* shorter time, similar to Azir's soldier timer (likely by removing the extension possibility) * Add a range limit to her E second-cast, allowing you to retreat without making yourself still a target. In exchange, it would follow dashes and blinks, provided those occur while she's already in motion to you (I.E., either leave or stand and fight. You can't have it both ways). * Either change cast type of R1 to targeted, or shorten the dash range of both R1 and R2. Greater in-combat safety should not be coupled with a strong ability to just turn tail and run. * Shift the energy return of Shroud cast to her passive. * Shift damage from her abilities to her passive auto. Retain the increased damage to minions and monsters on her Q at max rank (possibly increase to compensate the overall damage loss on wave clear?)
The problem with this is you're destroying the entire idea of an assassin. When marksman and mages are putting up numbers in as high and can do it more consistently and safe whats the point of playing an assassin? Currently assassins are assassins because their upfront dmg. Think of lux after landing a snare within 2 seconds if shes fed the target is wiped. Sure you can QSS and stuff, but the dmg is still there in 2-3 seconds worth of time. Push back the assassins to take longer than they already do and playing these high risk champions begins to feel even less rewarding. Why would i want to play lets say zed who has 0 hard cc and needs 14-20 seconds for his combo because his W and can burst kill one target after 3.5 seconds (.5 seconds for the delay time on his ult and 3 seconds before the pop) when i can play lux gain hard cc, range and the utility of mage items and also bring shields to my team while bursting targets with Q E R combo from a safe range away.
: If you can code a program that can actually detect the difference between a power outage and simply turning off the computer I'm sure Riot would be more than happy to add it in.
Are you gonna give riot access to all of your computer files and logs? Because thats extremely unsafe from a programming standpoint.
wolf jade (EUNE)
: so i was facing a zac
He may have been in his passive im not sure. Like when anivia is in her egg form it says eggnivia when she types anything in chat.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPYB36qx,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T10:07:21.392+0000) > > Prove this statement. > "Your pathing must be really bad." [proof](https://imgur.com/a/K32fHst) Also if you had taken a look, you would see that they average less than 100cs at 20 mins
https://imgur.com/Vy5DKn5 I guess theres pro players that dont know how to path either. its called having bad games. If a pro player can have 1 of these games why cant a silver player have them? Proof would be going into the game and uploading vods of his pathing, not looking at numbers and making assumptions of how it got there. You do know what proof and assumptions are right?
HeeroTX (NA)
: In the current META, play a champ that will win YOUR jungle. If you don't do this, if you play a jungler that you need to farm up to get to 6 or whatever, then YOU need to prove the value of the pick. "Kayn gets screwed playing into Udyr"? Then DON'T PLAY KAYN. I'm an adc main, if I play Kog'maw and I don't know how to position well and thus die over and over, that's not the fault of my support or jungle or anyone else, that's on me for playing a difficult champ in the current META. Personally I only take buffs in one of two cases: (a) jungle clearly sucks (like 0/6 or behind by three levels sucks, and in this case it's MOSTLY to prevent the ENEMY jungle from taking it) or (b) its late game and there is no "my area" (at this point everyone on my team IS taking "my" cs and anything else, so anything on the map is fair game). But in early game (ie. pre-2 items (minimum)), my job is to farm up so that I'm not useless once I leave lane and help with drake when we're doing that. Speaking of which, if you (anyone not you specifically) are a jungle: Which would you prefer, jg+support take dragon while I (adc) pressure lane, or bot+support+jg taking drake and likely get collapsed by opposing bot duo and maybe more for probable smite fight/battle? I ask because if there's not a clear situation where the enemy bot either just recalled or just died, I often will stay in lane SPECIFICALLY to draw attention/pressure to the lane instead of to the drake pit. At high elo I expect there to be a lot more vision and knowledge of enemy positions before doing the objectives, but in low elo it's usually just "I'm here, let's do this thing" and if it's not blatantly obvious where enemies are, they often collapse on the group taking the objective. My theory in this state is if jg+support can't take the drake without me while I am in lane then we shouldn't be taking drake (at that time) anyway. (Note, this is only during lane phase when my damage contribution is not a major decider, if we can collectively kill the drake in a couple of seconds then definitely crank that out in a hurry, but if the most I have is a BF sword and it's only 3 of us the enemy is going to collapse on us while we're doing it and too many low elo jg don't know how to multitask that situation)
Ahh but see you're made a terrible comparison and ill explain why. "if I play Kog'maw and **I don't know how to position** well and thus die over and over, that's not the fault of my support or jungle or anyone else" Playing kayn can get you invaded often for his weak early game, but that doesnt mean the kayn is **misplaying** whereas your example as kog'maw you are misplaying by positioning yourself poorly. "Speaking of which, if you (anyone not you specifically) are a jungle: Which would you prefer, jg+support take dragon while I (adc) pressure lane, or bot+support+jg taking drake and likely get collapsed by opposing bot duo and maybe more for probable smite fight/battle?" This is a terrible example and heres why. Majority of the time when the jungler is taking drake the adc if farming an open lane where the enemy bot either just died or recalled. So the play would be to get the drake before they have the chance to collapse, but lets assume the enemy bot is in lane and you're "pressuring" them. What ends up happening to an adc in a 1v2? 1. You shouldnt be getting pressure in a 1v2 because they could just zone you from the wave or kill you if you dont respect the number advantage. 2. You attract attention to bot lane because theres a free 300g bot so now both enemy mid and enemy jungle could possibly rotate over and path through river and collapse on the 2 doing drake. 3. the amount of time it takes to the drake increases and the amount of dmg your jungler takes increases as well. Meaning even if they successfully get drake they may need to back or have had their opposite side jungle invaded or even the enemy jungler got 1-2 ganks off during this time. No matter how you look at it securing a neutral objective as quickly as possible is more beneficial to the team. And if you're gonna try to compare this split pushing im going to tell you as an adc 1. you should never be split pushing. 2. Go topside and push if you think your pressure is that effective. "this is only during lane phase when my damage contribution is not a major decider" This is just false. A level 5 caitlyn with only a dorans blade has .58 atk speed (without runes) and 78 ad Meaning every second your putting about 100-120 dmg onto drake. Not assuming any headshots or abilities. It takes over 3 rotations of abilities to do drake as a jungler even ones like udyr. When abilities are sitting at a 6 second cooldown at this stage in the game you're looking at over 20 seconds to do drake. Which means thats 2k-2.4k dmg missed out if your adc isnt there. Which would save you about a rotation of spells and mana and health. Meaning instead of taking over 20 seconds to finish drake you're looking at 15 seconds to finish it and you wanna say thats not major? This is why some jungerls hate taking drake because adc's who dont move. When they finally do move its because their team is being collapsed on. The problem is adc players want the benefit of the drake and the benefit of getting to farm during this time as well at the expense of their jungler's time and resources.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LP0z4Mx4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-13T02:46:20.184+0000) > > You wouldnt be able to 1v4 Kayn yasuo with naut and ornn next to them anyways. Yasuo late game can 1v1 darius. This is true, though with the correct build and runes, darius can still 1v1 yasuo late game as well. At that point it comes down to how well darius times the pull. Iif you pull yas during his nado, yas can't ult, and darius wins. Of course, you need at least randuins, tabi, steraks, and triforce/black cleaver to have both enough damage and enough hp/resists/anti AA and anti crit to withstand until you reach 5 stacks. As far as the other two items, well, you'd likely have spirit visage for the healing and the magic damage that most comps would have, but it wouldn't be great against yas. You'd also want either DD or deadmans, which would both help in this case. If it were a build just for yas, I'd take both DD and deadmans and drop spirit visage. Then yas basically has no chance. He can't dps/burst you quickly enough or run away fast enough, and once you hit five stacks, it's one shot time, even if yas has lots of lifesteal, it won't matter. But of course, none of this will matter if darius can't build a 1v1 build like that due to team comps, etc.
Where I do understand the logic of your build. Darius cant burst yasuo with a 5 stack + ult combo. As long as yasuo buys lifesteal and armor. To avoid the darius pull yasuo would dash through darius for the knockup. With late game yasuo's sustained healing and shielding he can sustain through darius' dmg while dealing more than enough dmg to burst darius. An example yasuo build Conqueror Overheal Bloodline Coup de grace Taste the blood Ravenous Hunter Phantom dancer Infinity edge Blood thirster Randuins Steraks Zerks or tabis What yasuo gets: BT shield PD shield Steraks shield Passive shield + ult resetting passive shield Overheal shield bloodline = 12% lifesteal blood thirster = 20% lifesteal ravenous hunter 14% lifesteal elixer of wrath = 15% lifesteal total = 61% lifesteal even against a thorn mail he'd still be healing 37% of his dmg dealt which is more than a third of dmg while having armor and the amount of shields we talked about earlier and about 3k health because steraks and randuins Conqueror healing Taste of blood healing
: > [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPYB36qx,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-13T02:30:20.710+0000) > > And all you do is play arams and bot games, so imma say you need more knowledge to make assumptions on other people. That's not an assumption though...you know what assumptions are right ? All of what i said can be easily proved with his OP.GG. Go look at his OP.GG and show me anything i said that was wrong... Bot games are great for warming up! I don't need to spam 100 normal/ranked games recently to be "knowledgeable" enough to point out obvious facts.
Prove this statement. "Your pathing must be really bad."
: how is this permaban worthy?
I guess you can say you received some SCORNED JUSTICE lol
Kazekiba (NA)
: she pays for that slow with absurdly poor scaling, and her lane harass is gimped with her only damaging ability much more restrictive in use. Considering the impact it had on pick/WR,it was certainly correct
You know the change did next to nothing to ashe in the higher elos. The change was literally to bring down her inflated winrate because of low elo players who were losing to ashe W spam. Whether its what ashe needed or not is beyond the point. The reason i like this changed is Riot finally exposed low elo players for losing to champions who were being played in weird ways when champions shouldnt be winning like this.
: Juggernaut saddness
You wouldnt be able to 1v4 Kayn yasuo with naut and ornn next to them anyways. Yasuo late game can 1v1 darius.
Brotha (NA)
: Jungle difference. Notice how your complaint is how the other jungler is higher level than you? That means the issue is your skill level in the role and that you're consistently losing the jungle match up. Expecting your team to protect your jungle in solo que is likely a big reason you're losing. Remember, if the enemy Yi is ganking botlane you should be rotating to clear his topside if not ganking a lane yourself. Allowing the enemy jungler to get off a successful play and then return to his jungle to farm is why he's higher level than you.
"Expecting your team to protect your jungle in solo que is likely a big reason you're losing." So if someone is playing kayn into udyr what do they do? Fight the udyr and die over and over? Or give up their jungle and fall so far behind they become useless? Teammates protecting THEIR jungle not "YOUR" jungle is necessary. When mid laner wants blue and adc wants red they take it and dont give 2 shits what their jungler says, because "the jungle doesnt belong to them". Then if its not the junglers then dont take from it. When laners take raptors scuttles or krugs. Oddly enough the protection isnt the laners problem but the farm is perfectly fine for laners to take? You cant blame the jungler always for the mistakes of the laners.
: In your last 10 games you have bought 1 control ward.... And you have never once switched out your trinket. Your CS is really low, even for power farmers like Yi and noc. Your pathing must be really bad. Im'a say jungle diff.
And all you do is play arams and bot games, so imma say you need more knowledge to make assumptions on other people.
: You do have to take a scuttle but not much is required besides that. Jungle is the easiest role to play from behind though. Kinda depends on what jungler you're using, but it is an option to farm to the next power spike and then gank.
This is false. Playing against any competent jungler, once you get put behind your lanes will suffer or you'll be invaded constantly till your team is pretty much in a 4v5 and any lanes losing will just add to your stress by blaming you.
: I want URF back. Can we keep URF permanently as a game model??
I think they should open them all in custom games. So that people could set up these games and look for them whenever they feel like playing them.
: but it just results in a manual review, not an instant punishement. which is again something riot should communicate. another useful load screen tip "a manual review doesnt mean the person will be punished. it just means we will watch the footage"
And who's gonna pay for someone to watch footage all day of salty kids dropping reports on players?
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Chainman3

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