: "What are you guys' thoughts on Sona's current state as a whole?"
I think riot is doing a good job with their current formula and philosophy. Sona's winrate, despite a low banrate and pick rate, is probably too high and eventually, she will need a nerf. However, if you adjust for pick and banrate, sona's solo queue stats aren't as impressive as someone like mordekaiser and lux who are only a little lower on winrate but much higher on pick and ban rates. Intuitively, I feel that sona is someone who should probably be addressed in the future and may be getting to the point of needing changes but isn't necessarily a top priority and I feel that riot's formulas capture that extremely well.
Yenn (NA)
: If normal matchmaking can't actually be fixed, can we at least opt-out of quick matches?
You can. It is called playing ranked. Normals will never be “fixed” because such a thing is impossible when no cares when they play normal games. Just go play another game mode.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kachykvar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cj1g9ETH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-04T15:12:34.879+0000) > > With the amount of matchmaking posts on the Boards and on Twitter, you'd think Riot would fix their broken system, but nope, instead its totally fine for high Gold Players to get matched up with low Silver players because Riot coders are too lazy to work on a better algorithm. Seriously. Did positional ranking really fuck things up so badly that they can't fix it?
> [{quoted}](name=Mavëríck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cj1g9ETH,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-04T16:24:19.969+0000) > > Seriously. Did positional ranking really fuck things up so badly that they can't fix it? No but the meta sure as hell did. Every game snowballs no matter how good the teams are. You see the same player go 10-0 one game and then 1-9 even in the same matchup. As long as everyone is fixated on changing matchmaking and not of fixing the actual game, riot won’t make any progress. In the past, people would say stay at the tower and don’t feed. Now, turret plates are worth 160 a pop and first tower is another 400 local gold. If you get camped and have to play behind your tower, that is 1200 gold you are giving up. Playing defensive in the current meta is akin to going 0-4 in previous metas. No matchmaking is going to fix that.
: I appreciate that you took thought and time and put it into your reply, but you're coming at me from the perspective of someone who thinks it's fine as it is... when it's... not, given the volume of complaints _this season_ about the subject. I was here in S6, and it wasn't this bad. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't debate you on this because it's likely neither of us will change our stance. I want discussion, not someone kissing up to them and saying it's A-O.K. ...but... on the off chance you do want genuine discussion; > If the playerbase is so finite, a cause is the matchmaking... and not improving it ends in a negative feedback loop because the experience is so miserable no-one wants to play. > I know the point of LP is to make you feel more stable, but notice how I didn't say it'd be a good idea to remove LP entirely. I said it'd be a good idea to balance LP gains and losses permanently, and promote based on a mix of LP and MMR instead of one **or** the other. > People don't want to take time to discuss it for the same reason you don't; You look the exact same to them as they do to you: someone fervent on defending their position when neither side has any facts to support it, including source code. > I would like you to look at my last set of games and tell me it's my fault I lost. I had a part to play, but it doesn't mean much if the Midlaner's 2/6 and my ADC's first words in the lobby were "don't pick x you Bronze dipshit, no wonder you guys are Bronze." ...and if you want reasonable discussion knowing all of this... where do we start? The basis that none of us have any definitive proof of how the matchmaking works after they fucked with it? The basis that it's more miserable than it was for the general populace? You need to remember, there weren't this many complaints before their changes or the new season. If this was really about people trying to pin the blame on everyone else, then that factor wouldn't exist. But it does. You and I both know that isn't all there is to it. If you want to tell me "that's not how it works" then you're doing to me exactly what they've done to you: ignore an argument because it doesn't fit their own narrative. It kinda' makes it hard to find the truth :) Addendum: I'm not saying my games aren't 'balanced' (yeah, people've told me I'm just unlucky and I guess I buy that) but that's part of why I'm saying all of this. If it was someone else, people'd try to dismiss it the moment they could find a superficial reason to. "It's MMR! They belong there, going 24/1/4 like that and single-handedly carrying!"
> [{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZrYmYEEo,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-01T23:25:35.374+0000) > > I appreciate that you took thought and time and put it into your reply, but you're coming at me from the perspective of someone who thinks it's fine as it is... when it's... not, given the volume of complaints _this season_ about the subject. I was here in S6, and it wasn't this bad. > > I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't debate you on this because it's likely neither of us will change our stance. I want discussion, not someone kissing up to them and saying it's A-O.K. > > ...but... on the off chance you do want genuine discussion; > > ...and if you want reasonable discussion knowing all of this... where do we start? The basis that none of us have any definitive proof of how the matchmaking works after they fucked with it? The basis that it's more miserable than it was for the general populace? > > You need to remember, there weren't this many complaints before their changes or the new season. If this was really about people trying to pin the blame on everyone else, then that factor wouldn't exist. > But it does. You and I both know that isn't all there is to it. > > If you want to tell me "that's not how it works" then you're doing to me exactly what they've done to you: ignore an argument because it doesn't fit their own narrative. > It kinda' makes it hard to find the truth :) > > Addendum: I'm not saying my games aren't 'balanced' (yeah, people've told me I'm just unlucky and I guess I buy that) but that's part of why I'm saying all of this. If it was someone else, people'd try to dismiss it the moment they could find a superficial reason to. "It's MMR! They belong there, going 24/1/4 like that and single-handedly carrying!" Your claim that things are much worse this season compared to prior seasons. During this time, matchmaking has remained constant while the meta has changed fairly dramatically. So why are you so fixated on changing matchmaking? It has nothing to do with the problems that plague this season. You can't fix the snowball meta with matchmaking. You can't fix poor game balance with matchmaking. You can't fix a misguided player behavior team with matchmaking. All you can do is make things worse when you ignore the problems and shift the focus on one of the few functional elements holding the game together.
: When will matchmaking be fixed? Just incorperate rank/division into MMR.
How would that even work? Rank/division is calculated based on mmr. That value cannot exist until after mmr is calculated so you can’t use rank/lp in the calculation of mmr.
: "The system is never actually against you. so that you have as close as a 50/50 chance of winning"
Should probably add a caveat that none of that applies when there is a duo queue. Honestly have no idea why duo queue is still in solo queue.
: So when was positional matchmaking sneakily reintroduced to random games?
Interesting, didn't hear much of it. Anyway, game quality has gotten even worse since position based mmr was removed. It is pretty apparently position based mmr wasn't the problem with matchmaking this season by now so I'm all for riot bringing it back. If anything, it probably was one of the few strings keeping ranked playable in NA.
: Post MSI Gameplay Improvements
If you are going to lower the importance of laner rotations, what measures do you have in place to keep laners relevant compared to jungler? Solo laners specifically already have less agency than junglers so they will need more influence elsewhere as a tradeoff.
AIQ (NA)
: You say that like people don't already abuse the system. Regardless of if you think it's not **the** problem it's a problem.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hYEcPTPe,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-12T13:40:56.881+0000) > > You say that like people don't already abuse the system. > > > Regardless of if you think it's not **the** problem it's a problem. Never said that people don't abuse the system. However, the way to fix those abuses would be to ban players, not change mmr. You can't prevent players from buying boosts by changing mmr. All of the problems that you brought up cannot be fixed by changing mmr. You will not improve the game by changing mmr because mmr is not the problem. Boosting is a problem. Duo queue is a problem. Intentional feeders are a problem. Trolls are a problem. Snowballing is a problem. There are a ton of problems in league which require attention to be addressed. MMR is not one of them and the longer we waste time discussing mmr, the longer it will take for league to be fixed. MMR already makes games as close as objectively possible with the data on hand. However, it is not a miracle worker and cannot make up for all of the other problems in league.
AIQ (NA)
: A hard cut off could easily fix outliers If I'm G2/G3 I can only play in gold I have a 0% chance of playing in Silver or Plat. It's "possible" rock paper scissor is perfectly balanced for players and game play. Of course league has many more factors so all the can do is get closer. On a huge unrealistic technicality they can perfectly balance both matchmaking and the game. I'm going to be fair too, balance has more weight than all the other factors I've stated. Balancing their game needs to happen there is no question, but honestly Riot jut needs to do all of the above. The OP is just attack another factor that contributes to poor experience, you are both right.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hYEcPTPe,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-11T17:06:46.359+0000) > > A hard cut off could easily fix outliers If I'm G2/G3 I can only play in gold I have a 0% chance of playing in Silver or Plat. A hard cutoff would make matches more unbalanced. If someone with plat mmr manipulates their rank to be g2, they need to be matched with plat mmr players. > > It's "possible" rock paper scissor is perfectly balanced for players and game play. Of course league has many more factors so all the can do is get closer. On a huge unrealistic technicality they can perfectly balance both matchmaking and the game. > > I'm going to be fair too, balance has more weight than all the other factors I've stated. Balancing their game needs to happen there is no question, but honestly Riot jut needs to do all of the above. Even their client is trash, how many times does it crash? lol > > The OP is just attack another factor that contributes to poor experience, you are both right. I don't agree that op is beinging up a legitimate factor. Matchmaking is not the problem with league and the more we dwell on it, the longer it will take for league to actually get fixed.
AIQ (NA)
: Just to reel you into the point make sure we are on the same page. You said : "games are uneven because the game snowballs out of control. If you want to fix the game, you need to fix the snowballing." As if this is the only factor I am showing you a variety of factors that determine if you will win or lose a game. AFK/DC are another example of that. > Better matchmaking isn't going to fix the fact that we are in a coin flip meta. The "coin flip" is determined by the players you have? Better matchmaking is the only way to solve this, having perfect matches every game makes it to where players are no longer a factor as they are all equaled skilled. This is of course impossible, but you can get a lot closer than league is. As far as banning goes, I did try, I've come to realize that Riot doesn't care nor listen. They will proceed with their own agenda. I understand that games with wonky match making to that extent is rare, but they exist.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hYEcPTPe,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-11T16:27:36.245+0000) > > Just to reel you into the point make sure we are on the same page. > You said : "games are uneven because the game snowballs out of control. If you want to fix the game, you need to fix the snowballing." > > As if this is the only factor I am showing you a variety of factors that determine if you will win or lose a game. AFK/DC are another example of that. Okay, that is fair. I should have said it is one of the main reasons, not that it was the only reason. I will edit my earlier post to clarify this point. Regardless, the point is that matchmaking was not causing the issues, it was external factors. > The "coin flip" is determined by the players you have? Better matchmaking is the only way to solve this, having perfect matches every game makes it to where players are no longer a factor as they are all equaled skilled. This is of course impossible, but you can get a lot closer than league is. The player factors you are refering to are due to variability in each player's play from one game to another and cannot be improved by matchmaking. Matchmaking can only look at a player's average skill. However, no player plays every game exactly the same, they will have some games where they are playing slightly below their average skill level and some games where they are slightly above. When the game is in a hypersnowball meta like it is now, those small variations causes games to snowball out of control and feel like a coinflip. These coinflip games are a result of the meta and how it interacts with players, not of matchmaking. > As far as banning goes, I did try, I've come to realize that Riot doesn't care nor listen. They will proceed with their own agenda. > > I understand that games with wonky match making to that extent is rare, but they exist. These games exist due to extrinsic factors to matchmaking and will never be improved by chaning matchmaking, They can only be fixed by addressing the other problems with league.
AIQ (NA)
: Wait so banning those players wouldn't help? Oh.. You are very insightful. So please tell me, how the META effects a master vs my P1 ally. Or perhaps having the MMR of my team average at P2 while theirs at D4? Is the META to take on lower ranked allies? Changing gears to a more serious tone. I don't think you are so disillusioned that you honestly believe that the coin flip of having better or worst allies is not a factor. I just saw a fed D1 MID lose to a bunch of golds because his allies were just worse, that has nothing to do with the meta rather how trash those players are. You can say "well that's a unique circumstance", but I'd only agree if it wasn't the average game to have some degenerate ally lose the game for you and the "META" is can I carry this guy or not. Your viewpoint is optimistic, but naive these players exist, and the matchmaking is not optimal. If you think that players still don't have an impact, take for example basketball and Halo. Basketball is balance, what makes it imbalanced are the players in the game. Players are solely what impact this game. In Halo equal starts exist, the game has imbalanced tools such as power weapons, but having an ally that can't aim every game would lose you a significant amount of games, that why the matchmaking focuses on having you play in a tight window of players and hard caps you. Players that abuse the system or throw games are immediately punished since 343 does not need their money anymore, unlike Riot.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hYEcPTPe,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-11T15:53:00.080+0000) > > Wait so banning those players wouldn't help? Oh.. You are very insightful. > > So please tell me, how the META effects a master vs my P1 ally. Or perhaps having the MMR of my team average at P2 while theirs at D4? Is the META to take on lower ranked allies? > > Changing gears to a more serious tone. I don't think you are so disillusioned that you honestly believe that the coin flip of having better or worst allies is not a factor. I just saw a fed D1 MID lose to a bunch of golds because his allies were just worse, that has nothing to do with the meta rather how trash those players are. You can say "well that's a unique circumstance", but I'd only agree if it wasn't the average game to have some degenerate ally lose the game for you and the "META" is can I carry this guy or not. > > Your viewpoint is optimistic, but naive these players exist, and the matchmaking is not optimal. If you think that players still don't have an impact, take for example basketball and Halo. Basketball is balance, what makes it imbalanced are the players in the game. Players are solely what impact this game. > > In Halo equal starts exist, the game has imbalanced tools such as power weapons, but having an ally that can't aim every game would lose you a significant amount of games, that why the matchmaking focuses on having you play in a tight window of players and hard caps you. Players that abuse the system or throw games are immediately punished since 343 does not need their money anymore, unlike Riot. Riot has been trying to ban those players for 9 seasons now, look where it has gotten us. If you have some suggestions on how riot can handle their bans, you should go to the player behavior board. More importantly, however, you have to realize that better matchmaking isn't going to ban players. Better matchmaking isn't going to fix the fact that we are in a coinflip meta. Better matchmaking isn't going to change the fact that a d1 player can't carry a bunch of gold players because the meta does not reward solo carry players. As long as we waste time talking about matchmaking instead of more important issues such as trolls, leavers, game balance, game meta, etc. the game will never improve. Matchmaking is not the problem and changing it will not make any of league's problems go away. Instead of wasting time on matchmaking, why not work on a way to ban more trolls from ranked? Or balance the game better? Or change the meta so skill actually dictates the results of the game? Also, the mmr of your team is not going to be 2 tiers below the other team unless you are queuing as 5. If any website is telling you otherwise, that website is wrong. https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide >In a perfect match, ten individuals with identical MMRs queue at the same time, each having selected a unique position that they’re well-suited for. That situation is incredibly rare depending on who is queueing at the time, so sometimes teams can have very slight skill differences (on average, no more than 4-5 MMR).
AIQ (NA)
: So wait the reason why I got the Jax that got upset and ran it down top.... The Jinx support for top lane that went cleanse TP left bot alone and replied with ":)"... The reason I got the Ahri that kept holding R instead of escaping... The Vlad thats said hes a gate keeper... The Bot that went 0/31/4 combined at 11 min... The Fiora that RQ after 2 deaths.... Was the META and snowballing!? It all makes sense now ty.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hYEcPTPe,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-11T14:11:29.697+0000) > > So wait the reason why I got the Jax that got upset and ran it down top.... > The Jinx support for top lane that went cleanse TP left bot alone and replied with ":)"... > The reason I got the Ahri that kept holding R instead of escaping... > The Vlad thats said hes a gate keeper... > The Bot that went 0/31/4 combined at 11 min... > The Fiora that RQ after 2 deaths.... > > Was the META and snowballing!? It all makes sense now ty. Players tilting is a completely different issue. That has been happening since league began and will never go away. I'm more focused on the things that can actually be changed to improve games.
: > [{quoted}](name=ChargeItDownMid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hYEcPTPe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-11T09:04:54.425+0000) > > Why can't people accept the fact that it is the meta and not matchmaking? The more you complain about matchmaking, the more you distract from the issues plaguing the game. Changing matchmaking will not fix the game. The sooner you accept that, the better it is for everyone. What Meta? im not talking about meta. im not talking about meta/broken champions.im not talking about meta items.im talking about matchmaking. SKILL DIFFRENCE. in one game my ADC doesnt know even his runes and items and enemy ADC is smurfing and in next game enemy ADC is like that. or mid or jungle etc .... . my point is the SKILL DIFFRENCE not meta or snowball or anything. but since u bring it up i can talk about that too. WHY there should be a META THING in game at all? Why i should accept that ? why should a META THING even Exist in a game like league of legends ? and people supposed to accept that? and be like ok thats meta for this year and i should accept that. its okay that i played well in my last 5 games but i hard lost in 15 minutes well its SNOWBALL META this season and i have to accept it. IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. U cant ask people to accept that. META ?
> [{quoted}](name=Jax is Broken,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hYEcPTPe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-11T09:13:55.757+0000) > > What Meta? im not talking about meta. im not talking about meta/broken champions.im not talking about meta items.im talking about matchmaking. SKILL DIFFRENCE. in one game my ADC doesnt know even his runes and items and enemy ADC is smurfing and in next game enemy ADC is like that. or mid or jungle etc .... . my point is the SKILL DIFFRENCE not meta or snowball or anything. but since u bring it up i can talk about that too. WHY there should be a META THING in game at all? Why i should accept that ? why should a META THING even Exist in a game like league of legends ? and people supposed to accept that? and be like ok thats meta for this year and i should accept that. its okay that i played well in my last 5 games but i hard lost in 15 minutes well its SNOWBALL META this season and i have to accept it. IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. U cant ask people to accept that. META ? It has nothing to do with skill difference, games are uneven because the game snowballs out of control. If you want to fix the game, you need to fix the snowballing. No one is asking you to accept the snowball meta, you should be looking for ways to make riot change the snowball meta. However, the longer you waste time complaining about matchmaking, the longer it will take for the game to actually get fixed. You need to accept that matchmaking has nothing to do with the problems that plague the game.
: Why Riot Dont Accept The Fact That Current MatchMaking is Terrible?
Why can't people accept the fact that it is the meta and not matchmaking? The more you complain about matchmaking, the more you distract from the issues plaguing the game. Changing matchmaking will not fix the game. The sooner you accept that, the better it is for everyone. Edit: Also, the meta and matchmaking are not the only factors in determining games. Other factors like afkers, leavers, trolls, etc. also negatively impact the game and exist independent of matchmaking.
: Won 7 out of 11 ranked and finished in the same place that I started...
They made it too easy to get into plat and diamond this season so a ton of people playing in those divisions have a low mmr and are getting less lp when they win. Look at the ladder right now, 3% of players are in diamond or above and 12% are in plat or above. Realistically, a ton of diamond players right now should be in plat based on mmr and a ton of plat players should be in gold based off of mmr and that difference is catching up to players.
Rock MD (NA)
: Why high elo players think Zed isn't a problem
That is highly misleading. While zed isn’t seen as being as big of a problem in high elo, he is still seen as a major problem. He has a very high ban rate across all divisions. In high elo, there are more broken champions who require bans more but zed is still amoung the top echilon. He isn’t the most problematic champion like he is in lower brackets but he is still a fairly large problem.
Yenn (NA)
: Why are there so many S8 Gold players with 55%+ win rate in Diamond IV?
They made diamond easier to get to this season. Currently, top 3% of the playerbase is in diamond or above which is much higher than same time last year. Probably has something to do with grandmasters being the new masters which in turn pushes everything down. Just think of diamond this year as plat last year, you will see a few lucky gold players who get on a hot streak and show up every now and again.
BigFBear (EUW)
: Best example why matchmaking is broken (in lower elos)
Is it actually matchmaking or just the meta? It seems like games are fair going into champion select, players are just inconsistent as hell right now.
: matchmaking garbage, enemy team always has 5-15% INCREASE WINRATE
Matchmaking doesn't look at winrates, only mmr. If the other team has a higher winrate, it also means they finished last season at a lower rank than your team.
: Can we please talk about Rengar?
He also does a ton of burst when he gets his items. Not all jugglers should follow the same path, nothing wrong with a few that wait to 6 to snowball.
: Question: What was kayle problem that rework solved?
Looks like it is to create some more interesting power curves. A lot of heroes in league seem to scale on the same pace and the rework is a true hypercarry.
: The Kayle rework will be like the Nunu rework, which was like the Yorick rework
What is wrong with nunu’s rework? Of all of the recent reworks, he has been one of the better ones. I’m sure some people may miss the old kit but they are far and few between. Also, now seems like a bad time to trash on the Yorick rework, it felt pretty bad for a long time but 9.2 fixes was the first time he actually feels good to play. I don’t have much skin in the game either way but as long as the rework doesn’t end up being a disaster like akali is turning out to be, I don’t think too many people will be unhappy. At least there isn’t some rank 3 one trick with the name dontreworkkayle (yet).
: People play Liss in the mid lane *regardless* of Aftershock or not. People don't normally play Vik top. Point's moot.
Not talking about lissandra mid though. Aftershock Lisa top is a new build from worlds in the exact same vein as Viktor with klepto. People aren’t complaining about new builds or champions going into new roles, they are complaining about specific builds being too strong. If Viktor Top was at 2% pick rate like other middle of the pack top landers, no one would complain.
: The boards: "Riot doesn't let us innovate or do creative stuff"
Only happens if the champion is overpowered in the new role. Look at aftershock Lissandra vs klepto Viktor Top. Both became prominent at worlds as a counterpick to the established meta and both are doing respectable in the role. However, no one complains about lissandra right now because she is actually balanced. They only complain about Viktor because his stats are over the edge.
Paroe (NA)
: The FNC vs IG finals game...
It is the 50/50 meta. Game rewards risky plays and snowball out of control out of them. People forgot about it because the semi-finals went as expected but every single week up until then was filled with very volatile games where even the best teams in the world were getting stomped. c9 went from 3-2 against gambit to 3-0 against afreeca. G2 likewise dropped games to wildcard teams and then took a best of 5 against RNG. Don't try to read too much into the results of any single series in this meta.
: Do you guys want a balanced game or a creative one?
The two are not mutually exclusive. Dota managed to be a more balanced game specifically because it allows more item and role diversity for each champion. The key to balancing a moba is to embrace diversity and not to limit it.
: > [{quoted}](name=ChargeItDownMid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kKqvpHhW,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-25T16:04:16.982+0000) > > Sure but that can be said about everything in life. You as a person will never have the full picture on anything. You will always have bits and pieces which you have to fit together and make conclusions based on probability. If your philosophy is that we don't know anything so we can't speculate on anything, that is your prerogative. However, from the way that OP made this topic, he was specifically asking the community to make speculations based on the limited information we have. > > Just curious though, if riot were to disclose everything, what stops people from just saying that riot is lying about the data they disclose? What are you talking about? I wasn't making a philosophical comment... I know EXACTLY how the Elo system in chess works. There is NOTHING secret about it. But if I tell you "I have a great system, but that's all I'm gonna say! Trust me it works!", then YOU know nothing about the system, and I know everything about it... Of course you can "lie" (or the guy actually calculating the Elo for somebody in a certain setting is just doing something else), but saying "there is a secret system, we can't tell you because it's so great" and "here is EXACTLY how it works, see if you find us doing something else" are still worlds apart, wouldn't you say?
> [{quoted}](name=Bademeister,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kKqvpHhW,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-25T16:38:05.843+0000) > > What are you talking about? I wasn't making a philosophical comment... I know EXACTLY how the Elo system in chess works. There is NOTHING secret about it. But if I tell you "I have a great system, but that's all I'm gonna say! Trust me it works!", then YOU know nothing about the system, and I know everything about it... > > Of course you can "lie" (or the guy actually calculating the Elo for somebody in a certain setting is just doing something else), but saying "there is a secret system, we can't tell you because it's so great" and "here is EXACTLY how it works, see if you find us doing something else" are still worlds apart, wouldn't you say? This gets back to the problem before. Giving more evidence just makes people more defensive. People don't follow logic, they follow their feelings. That is probably why the system was changed to begin with. Back in season 1 and 2, the entire system was visible and we could all see the system working and people were for the most part in the elo they belong to. However, there were always people who didn't believe they were in the right elo bracket and they just got more defensive as more evidence was presented to them. Having more evidence actually had a paradoxical effect on those people.
: > [{quoted}](name=ChargeItDownMid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kKqvpHhW,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-10-25T15:43:29.241+0000) > > My guess (granted I don't know the full inner workings) is that riot realized showing the system just made people more defensive. Back in season 1 and 2, the entire system was visible and we could all see the system working and people were for the most part in the elo they belong to. However, there were always people who didn't believe they were in the right elo bracket and they just got more defensive as more evidence was presented to them. Having more evidence actually had a paradoxical effect on those people. > > I can only go off of my experience but I can say that the system obviously worked back in season 1 and 2 with visible elo and there is no evidence to show anything really changed. It is possible riot occasionally tinkers with the system and breaks some parts of it but they always have a working model to go back to. I understand. But let me tell you one thing: you don't know, you have no evidence except your person experience, which is A MINUSCULE FRACTION of the overall picture (both now and back in season x). There are always outliers left and right to the extremes of any random distribution. Speculation about the inner workings is meaningless... Riot should disclose it, if there is a sincere interest into making this a real eSport.
Sure but that can be said about everything in life. You as a person will never have the full picture on anything. You will always have bits and pieces which you have to fit together and make conclusions based on probability. If your philosophy is that we don't know anything so we can't speculate on anything, that is your prerogative. However, from the way that OP made this topic, he was specifically asking the community to make speculations based on the limited information we have. Just curious though, if riot were to disclose everything, what stops people from just saying that riot is lying about the data they disclose?
: > [{quoted}](name=ChargeItDownMid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kKqvpHhW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-25T15:24:06.089+0000) > > No, it can give you horrible teammates at any time. I get far more bad teammates after a loss than after a win. It seems like 50% of the people here complain about horrible teammates after winning a bunch and 50% of the people complain about horrible teammates after losing a bunch. I don't think there is a pattern as much as the meta is just prone to huge variability in play. What you think (or anybody on that matter) isn't important. The fact that Riot doesn't disclose the system tells me one thing only: it doesn't work. If it would, why not disclose it? And no, if you can "abuse" it, that means it does NOT work... so if you have to keep it a secret so it can't be abused, that means it's broken.
> [{quoted}](name=Bademeister,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kKqvpHhW,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-25T15:26:54.453+0000) > > What you think (or anybody on that matter) isn't important. The fact that Riot doesn't disclose the system tells me one thing only: it doesn't work. If it would, why not disclose it? And no, if you can "abuse" it, that means it does NOT work... so if you have to keep it a secret so it can't be abused, that means it's broken. My guess (granted I don't know the full inner workings) is that riot realized showing the system just made people more defensive. Back in season 1 and 2, the entire system was visible and we could all see the system working and people were for the most part in the elo they belong to. However, there were always people who didn't believe they were in the right elo bracket and they just got more defensive as more evidence was presented to them. Having more evidence actually had a paradoxical effect on those people. I can only go off of my experience but I can say that the system obviously worked back in season 1 and 2 with visible elo and there is no evidence to show anything really changed. It is possible riot occasionally tinkers with the system and breaks some parts of it but they always have a working model to go back to.
: Does the matchmaking system try to keep you at 50% W/L by giving you weak teammates after a streak?
No, it can give you horrible teammates at any time. I get far more bad teammates after a loss than after a win. It seems like 50% of the people here complain about horrible teammates after winning a bunch and 50% of the people complain about horrible teammates after losing a bunch. I don't think there is a pattern as much as the meta is just prone to huge variability in play. Although from a purely mathematical point of view, 50% of players win every game and 50% of players lose every game and matchmaking actively tries to match you with other players of your skill level so you can say that eventually, it puts everyone at 50%. I would say don't worry about the short run. You can see a ton of ridiculous streaks in the short run but everyone gets to where they belong eventually.
Malak (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Subdue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y8xYKyyc,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-12T03:39:09.951+0000) > > Here's someone who doesn't understand normal distribution. Good attempt to sound smart BUT first of all, the current league system doesn't follow normal distribution. It just puts everyone in the lower 2 leagues. Most importantly, the reason players would spread evenly in an absolute fair system is that there's nothing inherently special about Silver or Gold. Even if players are only slightly better, they would be able to beat slightly worse players and climb. Silver players, the average players, would reach gold/plat simply because they only have to beat other average players to climb. Also, just look at starcraft 2, it does the "fair algorithm" and players are evenly distributed bronze-diamond with master/grandmaster being exceptions because it uses a different algorithm. So sit down little boy, you're Ezreal and I'm Draven when it comes to this subject.
> [{quoted}](name=Malak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y8xYKyyc,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-12T05:29:59.455+0000) > > Good attempt to sound smart BUT first of all, the current league system doesn't follow normal distribution. It just puts everyone in the lower 2 leagues. > > Most importantly, the reason players would spread evenly in an absolute fair system is that there's nothing inherently special about Silver or Gold. Even if players are only slightly better, they would be able to beat slightly worse players and climb. Silver players, the average players, would reach gold/plat simply because they only have to beat other average players to climb. > > Also, just look at starcraft 2, it does the "fair algorithm" and players are evenly distributed bronze-diamond with master/grandmaster being exceptions because it uses a different algorithm. > > So sit down little boy, you're Ezreal and I'm Draven when it comes to this subject. You are getting a normal distribution and a uniform distribution mixed up. A normal distribution would not have players evenly distributed into each division, it would have the bulk of the playerbase in 2-3 divisions with a much smaller number of players at the tail ends. League roughly follows a normal distribution with the exception of very low bronze 5 players who are all put into one division instead of being broken down into smaller divisions like diamond/masters/challenger is.

ChargeItDownMid

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