: I dont think we should be giving lighter fighters 175 range, that should be reserved for heavier fighters and tanks. Lighter fighters tend to have access to mobility and in many cases, overwhelming mobility, and tryndamere is no exception especially when his crits get rolling. They should have risk with going up to cs. The 175 range for juggernauts on the other hand is because when they go up its hard for them to back off, the same is not true for tryndamere at all.
> [{quoted}](name=Tychusfindlay918,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REadJqyL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-24T00:53:55.696+0000) > > I dont think we should be giving lighter fighters 175 range, that should be reserved for heavier fighters and tanks. > > Lighter fighters tend to have access to mobility and in many cases, overwhelming mobility, and tryndamere is no exception especially when his crits get rolling. They should have risk with going up to cs. > > The 175 range for juggernauts on the other hand is because when they go up its hard for them to back off, the same is not true for tryndamere at all. yasuo has 175 range though, and the reason they gave for that is because he "auto attacks a lot and has no innate speed boost"
: I would agree with this as a Trynd main myself, but I also understand that he is a champion very sensitive to changes regarding his auto attacks, seeing as he is based solely off AA. I believe this change to range could work, but he would need a (minor or major) nerf to tone down that extra power. I also agree with the fact that we need a incentive to level up ultimate, seeing as it is completely useless to level up currently, or at least that is how most high ELO Tryndamere players see it. Regarding the AP ratios, I'm in favor of leaving them, maybe as a little nod to AP Trynd, or just so you can play AP Tryn in ARURF. Or maybe build a hybrid item, even though I know it is very unconventional. Something like {{item:3146}}. To be honest though, I really hope they don't buff Tryndamere to make him **OMEGA CRAZY HIDDEN OP 21/0/15 I GOT ARRESTED AFTER PLAYING THIS (18+) NOT CLICKBAIT**, and then nerf him to the ground. I can already see my sub box flooded with videos exactly like that, and I don't want to see him like that ;-; Then again, I'm just a Trynd main who plays norms and only has opinions on the champ from personal experience, and what I see on the boards.
might be reasonable to put the armor pen / true damage amp / whatever as a passive on his ultimate rather than on his mocking shout then.
Rioter Comments
: I agree with the attack range buff; I think it's really weird how both Trynd and Yi have lower attack ranges than most fighters and skirmishers, but the bonus crit dmg might be too much. Maybe buff the AD on it, but 50% bonus crit dmg is too much IMO. It'd be too OP early when no one has Randuins. Randuins is meant to counter crit users but not to the point that there's no way to re-balance it. Do you feel that you have an issue even when building LW and/or BC? As for the Mocking Shout change, it makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not sure if it would be too strong. Some testing on PBE could probably answer that. All in all, I think you put a lot of thought into this and it looks good, but it definitely needs some testing before adding it in.
> [{quoted}](name=XtremeAero426,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FtA613fi,comment-id=00500001,timestamp=2017-12-21T03:18:57.713+0000) > > I agree with the attack range buff; I think it's really weird how both Trynd and Yi have lower attack ranges than most fighters and skirmishers, but the bonus crit dmg might be too much. Maybe buff the AD on it, but 50% bonus crit dmg is too much IMO. It'd be too OP early when no one has Randuins. Randuins is meant to counter crit users but not to the point that there's no way to re-balance it. Do you feel that you have an issue even when building LW and/or BC? > > As for the Mocking Shout change, it makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not sure if it would be too strong. Some testing on PBE could probably answer that. All in all, I think you put a lot of thought into this and it looks good, but it definitely needs some testing before adding it in. honestly i don't see a way that randuins omen can be balanced to feel good against the majority of people who build crit chance without being overpowered against tryndamere He needs a steroid that is more "resistant" to randuins omen in order to even put him on the same playing field as everyone else, because of how focused his damage profile is. I don't think the +50% bonus crit damage (an ie passive basically) is too much given two facts: 1. he can only access all of it when he's at almost no health because it scales with missing health 2. he is losing the scaling attack damage portion of his Q to get the scaling crit damage It isn't even necessarily that nobody can get similar levels of crit chance than tryndamere can, its the fact that tryndamere is the only champion that relies ENTIRELY on damage from just auto attacks-- no on hit effects, no true damage, no utility worth mentioning, nothing but damage from auto attacks amped in the normal way with critical strike, attack speed, and attack damage. Everyhing in his kit is meant to get him into attack range, help him survive while in attack range, keep the enemy in attack range, prevent the enemy from whittling him down in the laning phase so he can get in attack range-- everything is extremely focused on just one thing: get into attack range and auto attack. Randuins just gimps him too much-- between the crit damage reduction, attack speed slow, the the auto peel active, its just too much. Its just fucks him waaaaaaaay too hard, like way harder than any other item fucks any other champion. Armor pen doesn't really do anything to answer any of this. His attack speed is still slowed, his crit damage is still reduced, and he is still vulnerable to the auto peel active. I don't think randuins should be removed on account of one champion being too weak to it, I think that one champion should be buffed in very specific ways that changes his stat profile so that he's not as hard countered by it. I'm okay with randuins omen being strong against tryndamere, and the attack speed slow and auto peel (plus the armor and health it grants) should be enough to make it a great rush item against him. The crit damage reduction on top of all that is just too much for him to really handle.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 20
Have you considered any of these for Tryndamere? #125 attack range -> 175 attack range (Every Tryndamere main I've talked to agrees he could really make great use of this for safer farming and his short range feels weird given the length of his blade, the range would help him attack while moving; also, given how slow his spin is, more auto attack range would help him land an auto attack at max spin range against fast targets like teemo and quinn without having to predict the future as much) #Mocking shout 20/35/50/65/80 AD reduction -> 15/20/25/30/35% armor reduction (Seems appropriate given the fact that he's the only skirmisher left with no way to threaten tanks-- when the enemy team becomes really really tanky, he can't even split push, although that is primarily because of how randuins omen really mitigates Tryndamere more than it does any other champion) #Bloodlust 10 - 35 attack damage based on missing health -> 10 - 50% bonus crit damage modifier based on missing health (Randuins doesn't counter anyone in the game so hard as it counters Tryndamere because of the way Tryndamere was designed. Even yasuo can atleast be useful through windwall and has good enough target selection and utility with is ultimate to be an asset despite randuins. Often I feel like I can't even interact with my opponent at all if they buy randuins so I have to avoid them entirely. Its kind of lame being absolutely countered by a single item, so some bonus crit damage modifier to cancel out the negative modifier of randuins omen would help tryndamere feel good about building crit chance even when the enemy laner rushes randuins, which is really what he should be able to do given the fact that his fury generation and spinning slash reset is centered around that and has been centered around that long before randuins mitigated critical strike damage) #Base Stats (Really the above three things are Tryndamere's biggest issues that keep him from being functional towards mid game. His only issue with the laning phase is that he used to always win by out stat checking people, and now he just doesn't have enough stats to do that anymore. Unless you are willing to increase his range from 125 to something like 250, I don't see how he would be as powerful as his old self in the laning phase WITHOUT a huge stat boost, like more base attack damage, base attack speed, move speed, health regen and so forth)
: Strongest Non-Ultimate Champion Abilities
Tryndamere's spinning slash would be absolutely broken on any crit based marksman
Meddler (NA)
: I'll get some thoughts on Yi, Trynd, Heimer and Eve from the team for the next post. Been seeing multiple questions about each in different ways and haven't had the context to answer them sufficiently.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13
Any intention to adjust Tryndamere? (the consensus among upper tier Tryndamere players is that he is performing below his norm at the moment) also I have a thread you might be interested in for when you get around to doing larger work on fighters: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LE4wox2k-meddler-what-fighters-need-from-runes-and-items-is-target-agnosticism-and-resilience
: I agree on resilence, but not on the target agnosticism Though we need to be more specific here: Juggernauts, which are a subclass of fighters, should have some target agnosticism, and most already have that. Divers aim at squishy targets and usually have decent target selection, so they don't need to be as target agnostic. However, what fighters need is far more resilence in teamfights to play out opportunities to get onto the backline, and then there still is the CC creep issue that comes with an overabundance of peel. Just that this issue needs to be adressed by adressing tanks and supports and their insane CC uptimes. in the past, i could spare with the tank in the frontline and not really eat to much damage, and once the adc stepped forward i could jump on him, probably get peeled away but survive till my CDs get back up and i get another shot. These days one dies often enough even befor the first chance be cause all and everything has target agnostic damage. back in the days, with some defense and sustain, you could nearly ignore ranks and supports and even shrug off burstcasters to some extend, now every single tank has some %hp damage so they not only peel you off their backline, they also chunck your healthbars while not doing to much vs squishies them self. I really miss the days when tanks and co had meaningfull damage vs squishy targets and poor damage vs tanky targets, now they have decent damage vs all just that adc can ignore it with lifesteal and supports can basically completely negate it(for their squishy backline). So what fighters need most is bigger scale changes that adress damage creep and cc creep.
> [{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LE4wox2k,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-09T21:27:22.340+0000) > > I agree on resilence, but not on the target agnosticism > Though we need to be more specific here: > Juggernauts, which are a subclass of fighters, should have some target agnosticism, and most already have that. > Divers aim at squishy targets and usually have decent target selection, so they don't need to be as target agnostic. > However, what fighters need is far more resilence in teamfights to play out opportunities to get onto the backline, and then there still is the CC creep issue that comes with an overabundance of peel. Just that this issue needs to be adressed by adressing tanks and supports and their insane CC uptimes. > in the past, i could spare with the tank in the frontline and not really eat to much damage, and once the adc stepped forward i could jump on him, probably get peeled away but survive till my CDs get back up and i get another shot. > These days one dies often enough even befor the first chance be cause all and everything has target agnostic damage. back in the days, with some defense and sustain, you could nearly ignore ranks and supports and even shrug off burstcasters to some extend, now every single tank has some %hp damage so they not only peel you off their backline, they also chunck your healthbars while not doing to much vs squishies them self. > I really miss the days when tanks and co had meaningfull damage vs squishy targets and poor damage vs tanky targets, now they have decent damage vs all just that adc can ignore it with lifesteal and supports can basically completely negate it(for their squishy backline). > > So what fighters need most is bigger scale changes that adress damage creep and cc creep. I can see that working, but it would require so much effort I don't think RIOT is up to solving the problem under that approach. Not to be misunderstood, when I say target agnosticism I don't mean that fighters should necessarily be able to kill tanks more quickly, I mean that they shouldn't care about who they fight. They should gain something regardless of who they are fighting or whether the fight ends up with the enemy champion dying or not. Basically, most people look at a fight before they begin it and think about what the result will be, and what objectives they could gain by killing the enemy champion. Fighters should be able to look at a fight as an objective itself, and should be able and willing to fight just for the sake of fighting. They ought to gain something for just fighting with you. Of course this would require figuring out what constitutes a "fight". Obviously throwing one single ability at an opponent isn't a fight, that is just harass. And a duel to the death is a fight, but not all fights are duels to the death. I would classify a fight as delivering a certain threshold of damage AND withstanding a certain threshold of damage, within a timeframe. So chasing someone who clearly can't hurt you back isn't really a fight, but diving someone under a turret is. Hitting someone who wants to hit you back (trading in lane) is a fight, and dueling to the death is also a fight. Trying to kill a support while being attacked by an ad carry is a fight, but chasing a singed without actually landing any damage on him is not a fight. Of course this is just how I might define "fight". There are other ways of implementing the idea, what is most important is that fighters have the ability to distinguish themselves as a class from the other roles.
: +1 to this. While we haven't locked on a specific direction, there's continued experimentation going on. We want to find some solution yet specifically in resolve - but rushing something as large as a keystone change as we headed into the break was a bit too concerning. No timelines yet for when Grasp or some other Keystone may be altered / added at some point, but we need to make sure we find an appealing and effective pattern first.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=du7jH0vy,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T17:45:30.968+0000) > > +1 to this. While we haven't locked on a specific direction, there's continued experimentation going on. We want to find some solution yet specifically in resolve - but rushing something as large as a keystone change as we headed into the break was a bit too concerning. No timelines yet for when Grasp or some other Keystone may be altered / added at some point, but we need to make sure we find an appealing and effective pattern first. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LE4wox2k-meddler-what-fighters-need-from-runes-and-items-is-target-agnosticism-and-resilience More or less, what fighters want out of a keystone is the ability to gain small rewards for fighting so they don't have to attain total victory over an opponent in order to gain an advantage. This is the most important thing that fighters need and that they lack from items or runes, as it is the only thing that could exist to separate them from other roles, which want to pick and choose fights based on the results of victory. Without something like this to separate fighters from other roles, they would end up being boxed into the patterns of other classes (often like assassins or tanks)
: Other than the fact that it would be completely illegal to do so let's really think about your suggestion here. Who in the actual fuck would want to hand over their SOCIAL SECURITY number to play a video game? Please note that we're not living in Korea where the laws are certainly different. If Equifax can't keep my security information from hackers, what chance does a video game company have? Keeping in mind that Riot already had a breach of security a few years ago. Why would I trust them (or anyone else) with that information. At least with credit monitoring institutions there are regulations and SEC to protect me, with Riot (or any gaming company) there aren't those types of protections. Also, children play this game. It would be illegal for Riot to acquire the social security numbers of minors. Let's also keep in mind that not everyone has a smartphone, nor are there some that want to give out their phone number just to play a game. Quite frankly, this is about the dumbest idea I've ever heard and your suggestion is just asinine.
> [{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mvZr8Aoj,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-12-12T17:31:22.850+0000) > > Other than the fact that it would be completely illegal to do so let's really think about your suggestion here. > > Who in the actual fuck would want to hand over their SOCIAL SECURITY number to play a video game? Please note that we're not living in Korea where the laws are certainly different. > > If Equifax can't keep my security information from hackers, what chance does a video game company have? Keeping in mind that Riot already had a breach of security a few years ago. Why would I trust them (or anyone else) with that information. At least with credit monitoring institutions there are regulations and SEC to protect me, with Riot (or any gaming company) there aren't those types of protections. > > Also, children play this game. It would be illegal for Riot to acquire the social security numbers of minors. > > Let's also keep in mind that not everyone has a smartphone, nor are there some that want to give out their phone number just to play a game. > > Quite frankly, this is about the dumbest idea I've ever heard and your suggestion is just **The only way to stop smurfs is to take the matter seriously, and if you don't want to participate in measures to make smurfing impossible then you shouldn't have the privilege of playing in a tournament where smurfing is impossible.**
: Boards people, do you think the solution found to fight smurfs in new Clash mode is the right one?
I think RIOT should go further than that and require you to provide proof of identity, either through their own means or through a third party (the same process used to acquire a passport basically) In korea game accounts are linked to what is basically your social security number. The only way to stop smurfs is to take the matter seriously, and if you don't want to participate in measures to make smurfing impossible then you shouldn't have the privilege of playing in a tournament where smurfing is impossible.
SomeKat (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critkeeper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J68W64we,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-10T19:03:17.831+0000) > > last whisper only works against bonus armor, not total armor. This makes Lethality even more pointless then as you barely have opportunity to reduce someone to 0 without a Cleaver or you land a Yasou ult. At every stage of the game flat Damage would be better. ADC's role is to kill tank with autos, Last Whisper does that job, unless you're specifically looking for a Passive that's on a lethality item, none of them would be efficient then. I could only recommend such a thing if you were fed out of your mind and had enormous level advantage, and then ultimately you would sell this item you bought later. It's pointless.
> [{quoted}](name=SomeKat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J68W64we,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-10T19:14:32.936+0000) > > This makes Lethality even more pointless then as you barely have opportunity to reduce someone to 0 without a Cleaver or you land a Yasou ult. At every stage of the game flat Damage would be better. > > ADC's role is to kill tank with autos, Last Whisper does that job, unless you're specifically looking for a Passive that's on a lethality item, none of them would be efficient then. > > I could only recommend such a thing if you were fed out of your mind and had enormous level advantage, and then ultimately you would sell this item you bought later. It's pointless. yasuo ult's 15 second buff also only works against bonus armor, not total armor.
SomeKat (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=sadaiblast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J68W64we,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:50:00.520+0000) > > Care to elaborate? A dirk costs roughly the same as a Last Whisper. Draven is level 15 is 78.8 armor(allegedly) So for the same price you can reduce (around) 12 armor, or you can reduce 27. Flat is early, % pen is better late, but I can tell you this: Armor is more effective for each point of it you have. 1 Armor is stronger than 2 armor(Per armor point), so the last 10 armor you have, is the strongest 10 armor. Effectively, if you're going to try to reduce armor the goal should be to reduce it to 0, otherwise you're wasting money on Pen. Reducing people to 0 with Flat Pen alone is less than effective.
last whisper only works against bonus armor, not total armor.
Rioter Comments
: I don't agree nor disagree with your ideas, but have an upvote cause I think this is an interesting idea nevertheless.
: I'm lost on your first point here; why do fighters need target agnosticism? I don't see any game-health reason why fighters need to be able to kill tanks quickly, in particular.
Fighters don't necessarily need to kill tanks quickly, but they should "attain" something for fighting anyone, including tanks, whether to the death or not. This is really what should separate "fighters" from other roles-- they should just want to fight all the time because they wouldn't need a total victory in order to gain a small reward.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 8
You don't have to respond to this or anything, I'm just convinced that fighter's needs have been misunderstood and aren't being met by the items or runes systems. If you have a chance please read this, it explains what I think fighters actually need and want from items and runes (to fight, more or less), and how they are different from assassins, juggernauts and other classes: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LE4wox2k-meddler-what-fighters-need-from-runes-and-items-is-target-agnosticism-and-resilience
Rioter Comments
: Lethal Temp is a lot better on ranged characters than on melee because its easier to kite. Champions who rely heavily on on-hit effects should be the best users of the rune because attack speed is their best stat; exceeding the attack speed cap by 80% means nearly doubling on-hit damage.
> [{quoted}](name=SzGamer227,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=KtbGvapw,comment-id=0004000100020000,timestamp=2017-12-07T21:13:07.000+0000) > > Lethal Temp is a lot better on ranged characters than on melee because its easier to kite. Champions who rely heavily on on-hit effects should be the best users of the rune because attack speed is their best stat; exceeding the attack speed cap by 80% means nearly doubling on-hit damage. that isn't exactly how it works. in reality an 80% increase in base attack speed of roughly 0.67 will take you from 2.5 attacks per second (assuming you are already capped) to 3.0 attacks per second, which is a 1.2x multiplier. it wouldn't even be a doubling if you had no other sources of attack speed (it would be, at best a 1.8x multiplier). It only gets worse (relatively speaking) as you build more attack speed.
: The data I have seen (and my anecdotal experience with him in my games) suggests otherwise. I recommend trying press the attack with him and seeing how that feels.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Afic,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=KtbGvapw,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2017-12-06T21:29:25.236+0000) > > The data I have seen (and my anecdotal experience with him in my games) suggests otherwise. I recommend trying press the attack with him and seeing how that feels. http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics 45.51% winrate according to op.gg http://champion.gg/champion/Tryndamere/Top? 48.76% winrate according to champion.gg I mean maybe in lower tiers where people stand on you all the time press the attack ends up being workable and that probably pulls tryndamere's winrate up a bit, but in very high echelons of play its nearly unusable outside of tanks that want to brawl with you 24/7
: Tryndamere seems to be performing slightly below par with Press the Attack at the moment but far from "really bad". There are going to be a good amount of shakeups in top lane for both this patch and next patch though (nerfs to stuff that Tryndamere hates such as Teemo for example) so we'll see.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Aesah,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=KtbGvapw,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-12-06T21:24:09.539+0000) > > Tryndamere seems to be performing slightly below par with Press the Attack at the moment but far from "really bad". There are going to be a good amount of shakeups in top lane for both this patch and next patch though (nerfs to stuff that Tryndamere hates such as Teemo for example) so we'll see. that is what scares me though, press the attack really only works against tanky type champions that are willing to sit there and brawl with you most fighters generally get in, make a trade, and get out before you have a chance to wind up press the attack or get anything out of it. with fighter buffs looming on the horizon, i suspect tryndamere's winrate will plummet because he really doesn't use any of the capstones that well.
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 7.24
A lot of Tryndamere mains seem to think the rune changes have put him in a really bad spot. Your thoughts?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
If in your buffs to Ravenous Hydra you include the ability for it to critically strike, it would really help out skirmishers like Yi and Tryndamere-- and it wouldn't affect marksmen potential being that it is melee only anyway. Generally critical strike chance is such a commitment heavy stat that it wouldn't adversely affect the other fighters because they wouldn't build crit. In other words, it gives you a way to specifically tune Tryndamere / Yi / Yasuo's waveclear and aoe potential (read, split push potential) without just giving them that raw power in their kit (they would have to spend gold to access it), and allowing it to be opt-in so that if the situation doesn't call for it the melee carry doesn't have to spec into a more split push oriented build that would include a hydra. This is especially relevant for Tryndamere, who seems to be suffering even more than the fighters you mentioned, and who is extremely sensitive to the state of the game surrounding the viability of split pushing. Lastly I think it would be appropriate for skirmishers to have their own item. We have items for vanguards, divers, wardens, enchanters, marksmen, juggernauts, artillery mages, burst mages and assassins, but we don't have a dedicated item for skirmishers. Generally some skirmishers can team fight, but something they all can certainly do better than virtually any other class in the game as a rule is split push-- so it makes sense to really dial up their ability to do that with a dedicated item that they can build to amplify the thing that separates them from other classes.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
Thoughts on Tryndamere? He seems to be suffering just as much as any of the fighters you mentioned.
: An option is to make it so he is immune to CC while spinning. This doesn't really change him much at lower levels of play but would make him much stronger in higher elo and for those who have mastered him.
> [{quoted}](name=AlienPrimate,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XZupfuEA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-05T14:40:29.826+0000) > > An option is to make it so he is immune to CC while spinning. This doesn't really change him much at lower levels of play but would make him much stronger in higher elo and for those who have mastered him. I think i'd suggest making him unstoppable rather than immune to cc, that way it would be a little less busted. For instance, in both of them he'd be immune to knock backs while spinning, but with unstoppable if he were hit with something very long in duration like a morgana snare he'd still receive the remaining duration of the snare after the spin ended (the same way it does now)
: Buffs for Tryndamere
maybe increase the minimum healing on his Q from 30-70 to 40-100 to help him survive lanes where he is zoned off of creeps. probably be okay to increase his base attack speed from 0.67 to 0.69 as well. maximum fury crit chance from 35% to 40% would be a lot wiser than increasing his base attack damage too, because an increase in base attack damage just makes his damage profile at early levels less predictable-- which means his "lucky" burst ideal case (like 3 crits in a row) would go up, and that is definitely not what we want. A small increase in his crit chance at full fury would give him a little more reliability and although it would make his "string of crits" scenario slightly more likely in the laning phase, it wouldn't make each string do more damage than they currently do.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Details on our extra patch coming in December!
Will Tryndamere receive some help in 24b? He seems to be suffering more than anyone else top lane, even bruisers, based on op.gg winrate and overall player sentiment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H81XCDu8qvU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAhTh5ud0pw I would also be cautious about HOW I go about buffing Trynd, if you do. I've played over 8 thousand games on Tryndamere and have a decent circle of diehard tryndamere players as friends, and for instance, right now i'm starting to see some expert Tryndamere mains experiment with adapting to the changes by running him as an assassin by stacking all the burst effects in the game (electrocute, shiv, duskblade, even trinity force, all together). These effects were probably never meant to be used all at once, and the result is that Tryndamere can one hit kill most squishies if he can reach them. He really doesn't need all of these effects to one hit the squishiest targets like marksmen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulqQz9nrhBE This is likely not how you want Tryndamere mains to adapt to the changes.; Even with this approach Tryndamere still loses most of his games because he is so impractical as a champion, so in the long term most diehard veteran Tryndamere players would likely adapt to the one shot build and just lose games until they stabalize at plat or low diamond. He would still have an unhealthy one shot pattern, just in a lower bracket than he would otherwise be played. The point I am trying to make is that you probably don't want to just buff Tryndamere's base stats too much (they are already arguably the best in the entire game, taken altogether), what you likely want to do is give him more practicality in team fights and against burly tanks (something all skirmishers need to have and do have, except him). I'd suggest replacing the attack damage reduction on his mocking shout with percent armor reduction for instance. Maybe increase the no fury base healing on his Q if absolutely necessary.
Rioter Comments
Durzaka (NA)
: I mean, its Critkeeper, so the Tryndamere discussion is pretty heavily biased. That said, I love Tryndamere, and holy shit I didn't realize his win rate dropped so much for the preseason. And because of his playstyle, he is basically fucked. He needs a rework more than a buff
meh yeah i guess i am a bit biased, but he is suffering regardless.
TehNACHO (NA)
: Not at me, in your op.
> [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=msbtNTLz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-01T03:14:43.767+0000) > > Not at me, in your op. fixed
TehNACHO (NA)
: You need to link your sources. Aatrox, Mundo, and Tryndamere I hesitate to buff straight up out of their binary and stat sticky designs.
> [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=msbtNTLz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-01T03:09:24.765+0000) > > You need to link your sources. > > Aatrox, Mundo, and Tryndamere I hesitate to buff straight up out of their binary and stat sticky designs. http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics
Rioter Comments
: Tryndamere rework
He has kind of a blend between graves, jhin and ashe passives. The basic gist of this kit is to really make his sword feel heavy, clunky, telegraphed, but EXTREMELY hard hitting. His damaging abilities are really just different ways of swinging the blade, and his ultimate is explicitly tied to how well he handles it.
Rioter Comments
: I'm not sure that at current tuning it's ever worth it to take Predator on Talon. Talon is already a very mobile champion that can build more mobility (Mobis, Ghostblade) and generally prefers to just rush damage instead (Duskblade) to hit his burst thresholds as fast as possible. Predator tends to be stronger on champions that are less mobile and more interested in the mobility aspect of the rune, which offers them target access they wouldn't have otherwise. Most of the champions that have success with Predator are junglers, though I think there are situations where some laners that can take early boots can get use out of Predator as well (mainly TF and Vlad). Predator is just gated in so many ways that it's hard to make it work outside the jungle - you need to get boots very early for it to be strong, and be capable of forcing plays on the Predator cooldown. Few laners are able to do that, and even those that can do that often would rather just have a more consistent keystone that doesn't force them into buying boots early and only making plays on a long cooldown.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Endstep,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=xMuTbNoe,comment-id=00450000,timestamp=2017-11-26T02:45:35.576+0000) > > I'm not sure that at current tuning it's ever worth it to take Predator on Talon. Talon is already a very mobile champion that can build more mobility (Mobis, Ghostblade) and generally prefers to just rush damage instead (Duskblade) to hit his burst thresholds as fast as possible. Predator tends to be stronger on champions that are less mobile and more interested in the mobility aspect of the rune, which offers them target access they wouldn't have otherwise. > > Most of the champions that have success with Predator are junglers, though I think there are situations where some laners that can take early boots can get use out of Predator as well (mainly TF and Vlad). Predator is just gated in so many ways that it's hard to make it work outside the jungle - you need to get boots very early for it to be strong, and be capable of forcing plays on the Predator cooldown. Few laners are able to do that, and even those that can do that often would rather just have a more consistent keystone that doesn't force them into buying boots early and only making plays on a long cooldown. you should consider reducing the duration significantly and vastly increasing the movement speed buff, for instance-- down to 4 seconds but up to +200% movement speed.
: Ideally attack speed slows would be a kind of safety valve for attack speed based builds/champions. There's multiple reasons that many attack speed slows have been reduced or removed over time (Nasus W reduced, Darius W removed, Frozen Heart reduced), but there's also reasons for them to be in the game. In some cases attack speed slows give champions a specific niche they can play to (for example, Nasus' matchups into AS-based champions are stronger because of his W, which doesn't affect many other matchups - this is part of what makes him better as a toplaner than as a jungler). Overall I think attack speed slows feel worse than they are (in terms of raw power), but there are other similar mechanics in the game like silence and grounding that can still do good things in the right spot. In my opinion (note this is just my personal opinion, not the opinion of a designer or Live Gameplay or anything) I'd prefer it if attack speed slows were less frequent than they are now and perhaps a bit lower overall, but I think it's good for the game for certain safety valves to exist like Frozen Heart.
What if attack speed slows only affected bonus attack speed rather than base attack speed, and didn't stack? You could afford to make the values a lot higher, and the impact on "attack speed stackers" could be much more pronounced. As it stands the only real way to play against attack speed slows for most non-attack speed oriented auto attackers is to just build more attack speed than normal in order to counteract it enough so that it doesn't warp your ability to animation cancel attacks with movement between attacks. In other words, its not really having the intended effect.
Lovesick (OCE)
: What's everyone's stances on Assassins right now?
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 17
Any thoughts on the difficulty to proc kleptomancy with a melee champion? Are you afraid that kleptomancy might become another death fire grasp in terms of only having enough power to be usable on a few champions because with enough power to be more generally available it would be broken on those few? What do you think about top lane right now? What do you think about the overall damage in the game, is it too high, too low, or just right? Are there any plans to make melee versus ranged matchups a little more enjoyable for both sides? Any new items in the works? At one time you were talking about a diver class update, is that still going to happen?
Rioter Comments
Xavanic (NA)
: Dirty change riot
idgaf I just straight dodge when I get autofilled. there are other games I can play while I wait for the penalty to expire.
Rioter Comments
: Nah. It's more like this. https://i.imgur.com/yKuia8r.png()
> [{quoted}](name=Demon Empress,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pk3iBtJy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-12T22:06:11.414+0000) > > Nah. It's more like this. > https://i.imgur.com/yKuia8r.png() hungarian naming convention http://hevria.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/4061562837_398453950b_o.jpg
: If season 8 doesn't make marksmen thoroughly weaker in practice than they are now
Rockman (NA)
: .
that needs to be framed and put in a gallery
Rioter Comments
Penns (EUW)
: It also played the sound that only plays when Azir Q hits tho + Jhin was slowed from it after your ult hit. And Azir got an assist, so..
> [{quoted}](name=Penns,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nUtXBjKf,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-02T12:14:44.349+0000) > > It also played the sound that only plays when Azir Q hits tho + Jhin was slowed from it after your ult hit. And Azir got an assist, so.. Well damn I didn't see that lol. Jeez it must have happened on the exact same frame that the veigar ult did damage.\ Also, why the hell does Azir have the ability to summon a soldier, reposition it and then attack with it in the time it takes veigar's ultimate to travel through the air. Damn cast times are nonexistent in this game lol.
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Critkeeper

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