Myrmiron (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NyXHmKA8,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2018-12-14T23:24:19.464+0000) > > werent swastikas always allowed to be shown in germany as long as its for educational purposes? like historic documentations etc. i think it always depended on the context. That's correct, but now it can be display for entertainment purposes in games as well. Like in Wolfenstein for example.
> [{quoted}](name=Myrmiron,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NyXHmKA8,comment-id=001b0000,timestamp=2018-12-15T01:47:09.623+0000) > > That's correct, but now it can be display for entertainment purposes in games as well. > Like in Wolfenstein for example. interesting. didnt know it was censored in videogames.
Kelg (NA)
: one tricking a champ only helps you get better at macro play so it won't suddenly make you challenger It's kind of handicapping yourself at the end of the day, so I'd recommend getting good at a handful of champs instead of just one.
> [{quoted}](name=Kelg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rEwzML7e,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-14T21:08:46.598+0000) > > one tricking a champ only helps you get better at macro play so it won't suddenly make you challenger > > It's kind of handicapping yourself at the end of the day, so I'd recommend getting good at a handful of champs instead of just one. 90% of this game is macro play. youll find people in d5 not playing mechanically much better than in gold or silver. it depends strongly on the champion though. a silver azir player will probably suck ass at basic mechanics, while a diamond azir player is much better at the champion. but you wont find a lot of mechanical skill differences between a silver jax main and a diamond jax main. the main difference is game knowledge. knowledge of matchups, lane mechanics (minion control, wave manipulation optimal recall times, warding), decision making, map awareness etc.
: Is Riot seriously going to let China shape how they create their game?
probably, because its a giant market. thats the sad part about this. i wonder what the chinese government specifically wants from the game studios. this ban has probably been brought into effect to put pressure on blizzard, riot and other studios for some very specific purpose. most of the reasons why this game is suddenly banned, have existed since the very beginning. league of legends is one of the 3 largest games in china for years. apparantly there was no problem with "females being exposed too much" or the toxicity of the chat in the past, nor loot boxes existing. so why now all of a sudden? these chinese morality laws seem very inconsistent, open to interpretation and only being enforced when it seems suitable. maybe the chinese government wants something specific from tencent who is chinas version of disney. they own basically everything, including all these 3 largest games.
Myrmiron (EUW)
: Things your game cannot have in China
> [{quoted}](name=Myrmiron,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NyXHmKA8,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-14T08:08:06.142+0000) > > It's funny, really, while the rest of the world is loosening up on censorship (Germany is now even allowing swastikas if they aren't used to promote the third reich) Chine is just diving head first down the opposite path. werent swastikas always allowed to be shown in germany as long as its for educational purposes? like historic documentations etc. i think it always depended on the context.
: I’d be outraged about China’s alleged ban on League of Legends, but...
you are aware, that this just means riot is going to bend backwards and change the game to appease to the chinese government now, right? its not like theyre going to give up such a gigantic market. especially not since tencent is additionally going to apply pressure as riots major shareholder, and league of legends is one of the 3 most popular games in china. interestingly enough, the ban apparantly occured for two reasons. >1.) overly revealing female characters which is moronic, considering they dont seem to care about male characters being just as, if not more, revealing. >2.) an inharmonious chatroom what this means isnt entirely clear. it could be referring to the general toxicity in the game and how people are acting towards each other in /all chat. but whats slightly worrying is that this also covers "politically sensitive speech" in chat. this means they might just be trying to censor political discussions in private chatrooms, that they dont like.
: If it's banned in China, the player base will bring their toxicity to other server
> [{quoted}](name=l Main Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4Tmy7nHX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-14T15:40:45.540+0000) > > If it's banned in China, the player base will bring their toxicity to other server with their ping, theyre going to keep it to iron tier, which is fine.
: how can level 12 with no match history know about this shit?
> [{quoted}](name=DamSonWhUFndThis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Urmq0rf6,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-14T18:09:43.214+0000) > > how can level 12 with no match history know about this shit? how would gold 4 on eune know? youre not even playing the same game down there.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Urmq0rf6,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-12-14T17:03:38.659+0000) > > season 7 was the worst pile of shit this game had ever seen. > > it was the marksmen meta which peaked in the ardent meta. literally bot lane coin flip. whichever team had the better adc won and no one else mattered. everyone was just a glorified support and dependent on one guy. > > fuck that. never again. > > the best state the game had ever been in was the end of season 5, after the juggernauts had been balanced. you could carry from any position. whoever came strongest out of the lane phase was their teams carry for the game. didnt matter if it was a bruiser, mid lane mage, or marksman. tanks and juggers actually felt tanky, and assassins were viable aswell. ewwwww Ardent Cancer so op omg and adcarries too **_~~I CANT KILL THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE TOO MUCH SHIELDS ~~_** {{champion:84}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:53}} - clearly there was no way to kill thise champions or there wasn't something else you could abuse, you sound pretty much like this: **WOW SEASON 5 EVERYTHING BALLANCED** Ardent Censer: (exists) you: **_ADC OP IF SUPPORTS HAVE SHIELD AND ARDENT OMG ASSASINS THAT CAN ONESHOT THEM DON'T EXIST SUPPORTS THAT CAN JUMP ON TOP OF THEM AND CC THEM OR ATTACK THEM FOR HOURS DON'T EXIST ETC. ETC._**
> [{quoted}](name=DamSonWhUFndThis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Urmq0rf6,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-12-14T17:22:53.157+0000) > > ewwwww Ardent Cancer so op omg and adcarries too **_~~I CANT KILL THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE TOO MUCH SHIELDS ~~_** this was literally a thing. they got shielded for 3 times their health bar, just stood in place and shredded teams with auto attacks. you could not even fight them up close. fuck. the. ardent meta. fuck marksmen. season 7 was aids.
: I've started playing from season 7 I think and I must say t hat season 7 + the begining of season 8 were best seasons: after Blue essence got into game everything went downhill and so far it's getting worse than little better than worse again...... season 7 and begining of 8th season was the only season I felt there was still balance in the game also I feel like after season 8 I meet more and more people that just play **_really bad_**
> [{quoted}](name=DamSonWhUFndThis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Urmq0rf6,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-12-14T16:56:09.223+0000) > > I've started playing from season 7 I think and I must say t hat season 7 + the begining of season 8 were best seasons: > after Blue essence got into game everything went downhill and so far it's getting worse than little better than worse again...... > > season 7 and begining of 8th season was the only season I felt there was still balance in the game > > also I feel like after season 8 I meet more and more people that just play **_really bad_** season 7 was the worst pile of shit this game had ever seen. it was the marksmen meta which peaked in the ardent meta. literally bot lane coin flip. whichever team had the better adc won and no one else mattered. everyone was just a glorified support and dependent on one guy. fuck that. never again. the best state the game had ever been in was the end of season 5, after the juggernauts had been balanced. you could carry from any position. whoever came strongest out of the lane phase was their teams carry for the game. didnt matter if it was a bruiser, mid lane mage, or marksman. tanks and juggers actually felt tanky, and assassins were viable aswell.
DUDE BRO (NA)
: Go into options and disable 'Auto Attack'. Reason is he loses the target, and then just auto attacks the closest like he would if you were afk.
> [{quoted}](name=DUDE BRO,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=XtUZF5ar,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-14T07:31:15.120+0000) > > Go into options and disable 'Auto Attack'. > > Reason is he loses the target, and then just auto attacks the closest like he would if you were afk. thats not the problem. i have it disabled, and its still happening.
Lovelle (NA)
: Honestly, if Atmas was added to the game I would build it every game over {{item:3748}} on {{champion:48}} .
> [{quoted}](name=Lovelle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OZEv7AUQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-14T03:59:47.312+0000) > > Honestly, if Atmas was added to the game I would build it every game over {{item:3748}} on {{champion:48}} . ok, fine? i dont see why, since trundle benefits more from the upfront burst and on hit damage, but there are still enough champions whod pick one over the other.
AMQK (NA)
: Garen bug?
its been happening forever. ive reported it in the past already. he also has a bunch of other gamebreaking bugs they dont seem to care about. someone recently posted a video of multiple instances of garens ult dealing no damage if you cast it right after you use decisive strike. there is also the bug of his ult sometimes cancelling when people flash or move away from you, and the bug where stattic shiv goes off at the start of the q animation and not when the attack connects.
Mogarl (NA)
: Push the Cart timeout on Nexus Blitz is BS
some of those events are just designed to be a giant buff for the enemy team, when its slightly behind. my favourites are events spawning in enemy turret range. on the other hand, you have loot teemos and loot veigars just either spawning or running straight to the enemy side of the map to give them a free 10k gold.
: just give garen more spins for building attack speed.
im bringing this up again. garen has been dropping off over the past few patches, and has some room to get worked on. bring back his crit build.
Moody P (NA)
: volibear isn't outdated just underpowered
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxmR7iLA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-13T11:27:12.203+0000) > > volibear isn't outdated just underpowered he needs a new ultimate, dude. im not saying they need to change its entire concept, but it needs to do something more than grant a little bit on hit damage.
: She can be hard to lockdown, but blows up immediately when anything lands. She reminds me of Master Yi in that their kit makes it hard to land CC while they are wreaking havok but it will completely shut them down if you do.
> [{quoted}](name=AsTheSunSets,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9y9fbK5m,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-12-13T05:39:38.201+0000) > > She can be hard to lockdown, but blows up immediately when anything lands. She reminds me of Master Yi in that their kit makes it hard to land CC while they are wreaking havok but it will completely shut them down if you do. yi isnt ranged. that makes him managable. vayne is conceptually broken. when shes not horrendously overtuned, she tends to be trash.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qx3QENIf,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-12T21:46:48.836+0000) > > {{item:3005}} {{item:3161}} > > where are they, meddler? Atmss confirmed dead
> [{quoted}](name=Mordepool,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qx3QENIf,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-12T22:19:01.731+0000) > > Atmss confirmed dead im not giving up on that item. their reason to pull it was dumb as shit.
: If Riot stopped sucking off Marksmen and actually Supported Juggernauts through Itemization and Keystones maybe they wouldnt be a failed class. {{item:3053}} is pretty much Just a Divers item Now. The difference in Value given to Juggernauts is Less than what Divers get out of it.
> [{quoted}](name=Mordepool,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qx3QENIf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-12T18:34:55.918+0000) > > If Riot stopped sucking off Marksmen and actually Supported Juggernauts through Itemization and Keystones maybe they wouldnt be a failed class. > > {{item:3053}} is pretty much Just a Divers item Now. The difference in Value given to Juggernauts is Less than what Divers get out of it. {{item:3005}} {{item:3161}} where are they, meddler?
: What if Nasus' wither got a buff?
what if wither would spread to other nearby champions when nasus kills the enemy afflicted by it? similar to how malzahars e spreads.
: Make it so Whither's slow increases by 1 second for every 10 stacks.
> [{quoted}](name=Quiet Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XLZ3urLI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-12T20:41:38.254+0000) > > Make it so Whither's slow increases by 1 second for every 10 stacks. actually this isnt a bad idea in general. wither duration could just increase either for 1 second for each syphoning strike nasus hits a withered target with, or by 0.5 seconds for every 100 stacks.
: Unfortunately you counterplay her in champ select, her kit is the epitome of rock paper scissors so just make sure you always have a competent vayne killer on your team (like {{champion:1}} )
> [{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2018-12-11T23:25:47.614+0000) > > Unfortunately you counterplay her in champ select, her kit is the epitome of rock paper scissors so just make sure you always have a competent vayne killer on your team (like {{champion:1}} ) counter pick isnt counter play.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Because people still think its good when its objectively not. Vayne gets similar dps from AS and AAd, so an option that provides AS but only minor AD with wasted gold in ap and mpen will not be worth buying compared to an option with significant AD and AS such as stormrazor, botrk and ER, in wich no gold is wasted.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0016000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T21:54:26.995+0000) > > Because people still think its good when its objectively not. > > Vayne gets similar dps from AS and AAd, so an option that provides AS but only minor AD with wasted gold in ap and mpen will not be worth buying compared to an option with significant AD and AS such as stormrazor, botrk and ER, in wich no gold is wasted. let me repeat this for you. its her highest pickrate and winrate second item. if this wasnt her optimal build path, it wouldnt have the highest winrate. vayne buys the item for attack speed and double on hit. literally nothing about what gives rageblade value to her changed.
shabingi (NA)
: yo riot you think you could tone down these items a bit?
if you want to nerf jax and irelias synergy with these items, then nerf the champions. but hands off steraks gage.
Pika Fox (NA)
: If vayne is still building rageblade, shes a free win. Reworked rb is garbage on her and a waste of gold.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00160000000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T20:49:58.109+0000) > > If vayne is still building rageblade, shes a free win. Reworked rb is garbage on her and a waste of gold. then why does it still have 40% pick rate and is still her most common second item after bork, with the highest winrate according to every major statistics site? http://www.op.gg/champion/vayne/statistics/bot garbage my ass.
Pika Fox (NA)
: 14% over 3 autos, like 4%/auto. Thats over 10 autos to kill you through W alone. Thats nearly 7 seconds or so after FH et all.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=001600000001,timestamp=2018-12-11T20:23:59.910+0000) > > 14% over 3 autos, like 4%/auto. Thats over 10 autos to kill you through W alone. Thats nearly 7 seconds or so after FH et all. 2 autos with rageblade. so 1 auto, 1 tumble. and its all besides the point.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00160000,timestamp=2018-12-11T19:23:57.437+0000) > > slows dont stack anymore, and theyre basically doing shit to impact her damage output. doesnt help that these as slows have been nerfed multiple times over the years, and vaynes w has been buffed from 8% to 14%. A 15% AS slow reduces her DPS from W by 15%. Something like Exhaust would also be a good option. The fact that you're using the increase on W's percent health damage to claim it was buffed but not even mentioning the removal of the flat damage makes me disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=001600000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T19:35:54.735+0000) > > A 15% AS slow reduces her DPS from W by 15%. Something like Exhaust would also be a good option. > > The fact that you're using the increase on W's percent health damage to claim it was buffed but not even mentioning the removal of the flat damage makes me disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed. auto resets arent affected by attack speed slows. with that new buff on the pbe, being able to reset her attack once per second, means that even attack speed slows barely impact her. the flat damage was only relevant against targets with low health. 6% of 2000 health are 120 true damage. against squishier targets, she lost a very small portion of it, which is overshadowed by the physical damage portion of her auto attack in that case anyways. but against targets who just build any amount of health, the % increase is much larger than the flat damage used to be. all of this doesnt even matter. my issue with the champion is that she has no mechanical counterplay. shes simply not held to the same standarts of allowing her opponents to play around her kit, as melee carries are. this is a design flaw with a lot of marksmen in general. even champions like twitch, kog maw, tristana etc. all of these champions kits dont have hooks that allow their opponents to mechanically outplay them. its just a question of burst or get bursted against these champions. maybe i should have phrased the opening sentence of this thread differently and said, that ranged carries in general should be held to the same design standarts as melee carries. make them all revolve around some kind of gimmicky minigame to access their damage steroids, or have them require to contineously hard to hit skillshots like aatrox q to be able to output damage.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Shes not immune to randuins, frozen heart, thornmail or wardens. Similarly, shes not immune to other AS slows. Her W also doesnt deal all that much damage compared to the rest of her kit or her autos.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2018-12-11T19:18:01.593+0000) > > Shes not immune to randuins, frozen heart, thornmail or wardens. Similarly, shes not immune to other AS slows. Her W also doesnt deal all that much damage compared to the rest of her kit or her autos. slows dont stack anymore, and theyre basically doing shit to impact her damage output. doesnt help that these as slows have been nerfed multiple times over the years, and vaynes w has been buffed from 8% to 14%.
: Vayne isnt a problem until shes fed, have you ever played against a fed garen? Unkillable. 1500 true damage R. Fiora? Can 1v5 and block abilities. Vayne? can carry late game but still get 1 shot and killed easily. Its getting real annoying that the boards is on a circle jerk of hating vayne.
> [{quoted}](name=NightstarReaper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-12-11T15:49:05.757+0000) > > Vayne isnt a problem until shes fed, have you ever played against a fed garen? Unkillable. 1500 true damage R. Fiora? Can 1v5 and block abilities. Vayne? can carry late game but still get 1 shot and killed easily. Its getting real annoying that the boards is on a circle jerk of hating vayne. this is the most bronze ass shit ive ever read. and it still doesnt even address the fact how both of fioras and garens steroids are either highly situational or have mechanical counterplay while vaynes doesnt. and how melee carries are consistently held to higher standarts concerning counterplay than ranged carries. everything in their kits has to be outplayable, there always have to be some hooks that melee champions have to bend backwards for to access part of their kits. even if they fulfill these conditions, there is often still some way for their opponents to save themselves from the consequences. (illaois hook, aatrox w, yorick w etc.) meanwhile for most marksmen its literally just a press of a button or a passive. get more attack speed... get more ad... get passive max health true damage tacked onto your auto attacks... yes, vayne is only going to be a problem when shes fed **right now**. will the same still be true when her buffs go to live? does this mean the champion can never be really have anything but a trash early game and not be viable without becoming a problem? looking at past cases of her in solo que, the answer is yes. by the way her kit is currently designed there is no way for her to scale consistently without being out of line.
wuthappen (EUW)
: I agree that {{item:3124}} interaction is broken, but the item is the problem not vayne. Its broken on many other champions like {{champion:11}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:110}}. The counter to {{champion:67}} is to cc and burst her down _(yes cheesy af, but its true nevertheless)_, CC/bursting her today is 100x easier than 7 years ago with the insane dmg/burst creep.. But lets say you added a **"counter"** to her w, so that crucial dmg can be avoided by playing correctly. What are her strength now? - Lowest range adc/Insanely squishy - 0 Waveclear - 0 Aoe/teamfight dmg - **Questionable dueling ability after w nerf** You would need to buff one or more of the other aspects to make her even viable, and that would just make her into worse clone of {{champion:145}} or {{champion:429}}.
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T15:03:27.301+0000) > > The counter to {{champion:67}} is to cc and burst her down _(yes cheesy af, but its true nevertheless)_, but here is the problem. if the only counter to an unfair mechanic is an unfair mechanic (direct target cc combined with burst), then you havent fixed shit. the champion is still binary between brokenly overpowered, or gets shit on without being able to do anything about it herself. if you ever wonder, why people dont want adc getting buffed, then this is because this is how most of them are "balanced".
wuthappen (EUW)
: Vaynes effective range at all points is 550, **she has no abilities that goes beyond this point**. Literally every other marksman can do dmg or influence the game beyond 550 range.
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=000300020001,timestamp=2018-12-11T14:41:50.599+0000) > > Vaynes effective range at all points is 550, **she has no abilities that goes beyond this point**. Literally every other marksman can do dmg or influence the game beyond 550 range. well guess what. 550 range is still more than most carries get in this game. youre only comparing marksmen to other marksmen who are similarly poorly designed with the same lack of counterplay to their steroids. none of this is really an agument to why vaynes w passive shouldnt be tied to a mechanic similar to dravens axes. i keep bringing him up, because hes one of the **very few** marksmen who has his ability to carry tied to a mechanic that his opponents are able to play around and have a chance to deny him. draven is one of the few ranged carries who are held to similar design standarts as melee carries. you outplay fioras vitals, and shes not going to carry. you outplay dravens axes and make him drop them, hes not going to carry. considering the impact of silver bolts, this would be even more important for vayne. otherwise she will always be pidgeonholed to garbage tier to keep her in check, or massively overtuned and permabanned.
: The counterplay is that she blows up at the slightest focus by anything short of soraka. You cant hold every champion to the same check boxes because champions are not the same. Fiora has perry, team wide healing, attack speed slow. Garen has tankinees, true damage execute on enemy carries and utility. Vayne has mobility and stealth. Not all champion's balance mechanics are equal, make vayne unreliable and you're left with a shitty unreliable DPS champion who gets 1 shotted when anyone sneezes at her.
> [{quoted}](name=JackMcSnipeyz,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T14:41:21.315+0000) > > The counterplay is that she blows up at the slightest focus by anything short of soraka. she has multiple tools to play around enemy focus. stealth, mobility, direct target disengage. otherwise, the same is true for a lot of melee carries like yasuo or fiora. yet fiora and yasuo have elements in their kits that their opponents can play around. for fiora it is the vitals. for yasuo it is the ability to dodge his basic q and his tornado, aswell as position around windwall, and his mobility being tied to enemy units. this isnt an argument for the lack of counterplay in vaynes kit. > Fiora has perry, team wide healing, attack speed slow. > Garen has tankinees, true damage execute on enemy carries and utility. > Vayne has mobility and stealth. garen and fiora have higher base stats or better effects on kill because theyre **melee** and vayne is **ranged**, which makes carrying on these champions already riskier than vayne by default. on top of it, garen gets to be more beefy than the other two, because he also lacks mobility to compared to them. this is just an effect of their different base stats, but it still doesnt excuse her from lack of counterplay.
wuthappen (EUW)
: **What this post says:** An ability that defines a champion, that has been in the game for 7+ years suddenly needs to go... for no reason at all. Its like saying: _"i dont like Darius R, its too broken.. it needs to go."_ This mentality is present in all the new game designers and even some players that apparently cant play around a sub 50% winrate champion.
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2018-12-11T14:24:35.653+0000) > > **What this post says:** > > An ability that defines a champion, that has been in the game for 7+ years suddenly needs to go... for no reason at all. did i say anywhere that it needs to go? i said it needs to change. it needs to be tied to a mechanic with counterplay. a 3 hit passive, or 2 with rageblade, doesnt create counterplay. and this needed to happen for 7+ years already.
: Give Vayne the same base stats and base damage as Garen while building bruiser and we'll call it even
> [{quoted}](name=JackMcSnipeyz,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-12-11T14:19:01.228+0000) > > Give Vayne the same base stats and base damage as Garen while building bruiser and we'll call it even if she loses her auto attack range, stealth, and mobility ok. vayne has lower base stats because shes ranged and mobile. thats an entirely different issue than the counterplay to her true damage steroid.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0003000200000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T05:23:43.011+0000) > > i didnt even play a single game against vayne this week. > > nothing of this thread has to do with me having problems playing against the champion. > > the problem is that a lot of ranged carries, and especially vayne, are held to much lower standarts when it comes to counterplay, than their melee counterparts. > > this is becoming relevant now that riot has buffs slated for her on the pbe which will undoubtly break the champion - again. (lets not pretend this is going to be the first time) > > her entire basic design is problematic. it relies on a broken mechanic with way too little counterplay. > > and yes, a 3 hit passive (**2 with rageblade**) on a champion who stacks raw attack speed, and has a short cooldown auto attack reset built into her kit doesnt create counterplay. when she can get 3 autos off in less than a second, then you cant physically make her switch target often enough for it to impact her. You're only proving that getting a W proc isn't impossible. It doesn't mean she gets all of them, or that there's nothing the enemy team (_team_) can do to prevent it. For example, if she sees her target joined by a teammate or two when she's only attacked once, she may decide to back off until they're either isolated again or distracted by a teamfight. If there's really no counterplay and she'll never waste any stacks, her W might as well be something that stacks on her as a buff rather than an enemy debuff. Right? Should we do that instead?
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00030002000000000001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T05:38:14.467+0000) > > You're only proving that getting a W proc isn't impossible. no, im saying its fucking easy. like really easy. incredibly easy. at least compared to proccing vitals by having to move around a target thats trying to counteract your movement and hiding vitals inside walls, or being limited to a specific target on the enemy team that you have no control over. compared to that, auto attacking at 550 range 3 times with a reset in your kit, or 2 times with a rageblade (which is currently her most common build) takes no fucking efford whatsoever. holy shit, how does this still not go into your head at this point?
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00030002000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-11T05:17:02.611+0000) > > its funny, since youre the one who dindnt actually read through the points i was making there. I did read through them. They were awful. This thread is nothing more than an "I died and there was nothing I could do! nerf the thing that killed me!" complaint.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=000300020000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T05:20:38.596+0000) > > I did read through them. They were awful. This thread is nothing more than an "I died and there was nothing I could do! nerf the thing that killed me!" complaint. i didnt even play a single game against vayne this week. nothing of this thread has to do with me having problems playing against the champion. the problem is that a lot of ranged carries, and especially vayne, are held to much lower standarts when it comes to counterplay, than their melee counterparts. this is becoming relevant now that riot has buffs slated for her on the pbe which will undoubtly break the champion - again. lets not pretend this is going to be the first time. infact, there wasnt a single time when vayne wasnt autmatically overpowered when she was relevant in solo que, because being relevant usually means that her early game wasnt trash enough to keep her from scaling most of the time. her entire basic design is problematic. it relies on a broken mechanic with way too little counterplay. and yes, a 3 hit passive (**2 with rageblade**) on a champion who stacks raw attack speed, and has a short cooldown auto attack reset built into her kit doesnt create counterplay. when she can get 3 autos off in less than a second, then you cant physically make her switch target often enough for it to impact her.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=000300020000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:55:24.938+0000) > > 1.) i already went over this. you cant outplay condemn. you can try to outplay the stun, but the displacement in itself is already powerful on its own. its a free oh shit button if by some miracle you managed to flank her and get into melee range. > > 2.) you cant easily disengage from vayne. she has her passive and shes incredibly mobile. even if you disengage, she can just switch target. > there is no actual downside for her to switch the target shes auto attacking. shell get 3 attacks off on you anyways. it takes less than a second. > > 3.) yes, there is not a single ability in her kit that its possible to outplay. q? mobility tool. w? passive. e? direct targeted. r? steroid active. > > you cant play around her kit like you can play around other champions. > > ill be fair so far and say that this isnt just a vayne issue, but a lot of marksmen have this kind of poor design. > > im still convinced she should get a kit rework that makes her more fair to play against. You can outplay the Condemn. Don't get between Vayne and a wall, and try a gap closer like a movespeed boost (her movespeed boost only works when chasing, not running away). Work with your team. LoL is a MOBA, not a "1v1 me, bro." Vayne is a lot less likely to go for you if you stick with your team. If you get her to switch targets, then great; her Silver Bolts will lose their current stacks. And no, you can't just declare that she'll get three attacks out, even though that's at most 14% of your max health anyway. I already told you the counterplay. Coming back with "BUT NO THERE ISN'T" just tells me that you have no interest in learning anything or having a discussion, and all you want to do is scream until Riot buffs the things you like and nerfs the things you don't like. Riot only does that for Hashinshin, and not as often as he'd like.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0003000200000000000100000001,timestamp=2018-12-11T05:15:21.737+0000) > > You can outplay the Condemn. Don't get between Vayne and a wall, and try a gap closer like a movespeed boost (her movespeed boost only works when chasing, not running away). > > Work with your team. LoL is a MOBA, not a "1v1 me, bro." Vayne is a lot less likely to go for you if you stick with your team. If you get her to switch targets, then great; her Silver Bolts will lose their current stacks. And no, you can't just declare that she'll get three attacks out, even though that's at most 14% of your max health anyway. > > I already told you the counterplay. Coming back with "BUT NO THERE ISN'T" just tells me that you have no interest in learning anything or having a discussion, and all you want to do is scream until Riot buffs the things you like and nerfs the things you don't like. Riot only does that for Hashinshin, and not as often as he'd like. its funny, since youre the one who dindnt actually read through the points i was making there.
AR URF (NA)
: or we can just let vayne shred tanks like she was designed to do?
> [{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-12-11T05:06:55.593+0000) > > or we can just let vayne shred tanks like she was designed to do? fiora was designed to do this aswell. so was garen, darius, aatrox, urgot, draven and many other champions. there are a lot of champions who are designed to shred tanks. the difference is that they usually dont just do it without counterplay. theyre all balanced around certain mechanics that their opponents can play around and that they have to play around themselves to access their damage steroids. vayne doesnt have such a mechanic despite already having a range advantage to begin with. im not asking to remove silver bolts from her kit. what i want is that the ability is tied to something like {{champion:114}} vitals or {{champion:119}} axes to give you some chance to actually outplay it.
: There is a restriction to it. You have to attack the same target three times, cannot switch targets and cannot wait to long in between them.
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:53:58.692+0000) > > There is a restriction to it. You have to attack the same target three times, cannot switch targets and cannot wait to long in between them. its not really a restriction with an auto reset in the kit, and enough attack speed to hit you 2 times per second, which vayne tends to stack exactly because it allows her to apply her w more often. only accessing your true damage by attacking your opponent from a specific side, or being narrowed down to a specific target. those are actual restrictions. even {{champion:119}} who has to telegraph his movement and can be zoned or displaced from catching his axes, is more restricted in accessing his damage steroid.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:29:43.897+0000) > > you know whats actually short ranged? > > melee champions. > > having 550 auto attack range isnt even short for a marksman. its average. > > but vayne in general needs to get some sort of rework that allows her opponents to outplay her w, and not be a champion of "you allowed me to get 3 items. i win". Vayne has nothing in her kit that allows her to touch anything beyond 550 units. Meanwhile, Sivir, Ez, Lucian, Draven, etc. aren't totally irrelevant if they're not in autoattack range. > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0003000200000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:34:33.845+0000) > > her kit has literally no counterplay. You're already wrong. Don't get between Vayne and a wall, move away when Vayne tries to hit you with a Tumble auto (or punish her when she does), step behind your team if you don't want her to build W stacks on you... "Literally no counterplay," sure.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00030002000000000001,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:49:10.166+0000) > > You're already wrong. Don't get between Vayne and a wall, move away when Vayne tries to hit you with a Tumble auto (or punish her when she does), step behind your team if you don't want her to build W stacks on you... "Literally no counterplay," sure. 1.) i already went over this. you cant outplay condemn. you can try to outplay the stun, but the displacement in itself is already powerful on its own. its a free oh shit button if by some miracle you managed to flank her and get into melee range. 2.) you cant easily disengage from vayne. she has her passive and shes incredibly mobile. even if you disengage, she can just switch target. there is no actual downside for her to switch the target shes auto attacking. shell get 3 attacks off on you anyways. it takes less than a second. 3.) yes, there is not a single ability in her kit that its possible to outplay. q? mobility tool. w? passive. e? direct targeted. r? steroid active. you cant play around her kit like you can play around other champions. ill be fair so far and say that this isnt just a vayne issue, but a lot of marksmen have this kind of poor design. im still convinced she should get a kit rework that makes her more fair to play against.
: Lol, it honestly sounds to me like you just have a hard time playing against her and you want people to agree with you that she's busted and needs to be nerfed but I don't see it man. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Like I said in another comment on this thread, she's got a 48.8% win rate. If she was as OP as you're making her out to be, it'd be higher than that.
> [{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=00030002000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:39:24.352+0000) > > Lol, it honestly sounds to me like you just have a hard time playing against it sounds honestly that it has nothing to do with how i play against her, but how the champion is designed, and how different design standarts are applied to marksmen vs. melee carries. for some reason riot tends to be more focused to give melee champions counterplay into their kits, than ranged carries.
: Well yeah dude, they're MELEE. She wouldn't be a MARKSMAN if she had melee range now would she? And she doesn't "win" if you get 3 items on her, but I've elaborated on that plenty in previous comments I've made :)
> [{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=000300020000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:31:33.073+0000) > > Well yeah dude, they're MELEE. She wouldn't be a MARKSMAN if she had melee range now would she? And she doesn't "win" if you get 3 items on her, but I've elaborated on that plenty in previous comments I've made :) her kit has literally no counterplay. all other sources of % true damage in this game come with some sort of mechanic attached to them that the champion and his opponent can play around. for some reason though this isnt true for a ranged champion whod need this counterplay more than her melee counterparts, since she already has the luxurity to apply this damage from a distance. it pisses me off in general, how melee carries are generally held to higher standarts when it comes to counterplay than ranged carries. {{champion:266}} gets a displacement on his w that his opponents can walk out of. {{champion:67}} {{champion:18}} get point and click disengages that always reliably knock their targets away. {{champion:266}} has to play around the hit zones on his q to deal noticable damage, and get his passive on a lower cooldown. {{champion:67}} {{champion:18}} literally just press a button to access their damage steroids. this is just one example. a lot of melee carries have some sort of mechanic in their kit that they have to play around to access their ability to carry, and that are by design outplayable by their opponents. meanwhile almost all marksmen dont follow the same design standarts and have their steroids easily accessable without a way for their opponents to play around them. {{champion:119}} is an exception for marksmen, where he doesnt just get more damage on the press of a button, but has to catch axes to amplify his damage, which can give his opponent the ability to deny him this steroid.
: At max rank, Condemn has a 12 second CD, 20 at rank 1, and her ult at max rank lasts 12 seconds, it only lasts 8 at rank 1. That's without CDR of course but most of her go-to items don't provide it, except for Ghost Blade. I get what you're saying though, but this post is making her out to be this unbeatable adc when she has a win-rate below 50%. This entire thread legitimately comes down to the OP having bad experiences with her or not playing well against her. In a similar way, I think Zyra is busted af Lol, but that's neither here nor there.
> [{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2018-12-11T04:18:17.667+0000) > > At max rank, Condemn has a 12 second CD, 20 at rank 1, and her ult at max rank lasts 12 seconds, it only lasts 8 at rank 1. That's without CDR of course but most of her go-to items don't provide it, except for Ghost Blade. I get what you're saying though, but this post is making her out to be this unbeatable adc when she has a win-rate below 50%. > > This entire thread legitimately comes down to the OP having bad experiences with her or not playing well against her. In a similar way, I think Zyra is busted af Lol, but that's neither here nor there. 1 condemn against a melee champion is usually enough to kill him before he gets a chance to get into melee range a second time. her e is another problem with her kit. the displacement is way too powerful on its own, without even knocking her opponent into a wall.
: Her range makes that a high risk/high reward part of her kit though. If she doesn't play it well, she gets destroyed. That being said, if you win against her in lane, rotate, and let her free farm minions for 10 minutes, yeah, you're gonna get destroyed later.
> [{quoted}](name=Demon DARK Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jBzYTs3z,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-11T02:59:40.141+0000) > > Her range makes that a high risk/high reward part of her kit though. If she doesn't play it well, she gets destroyed. you know whats actually short ranged? melee champions. having 550 auto attack range isnt even short for a marksman. its average. but vayne in general needs to get some sort of rework that allows her opponents to outplay her w, and not be a champion of "you allowed me to get 3 items. i win".
Rioter Comments
: you re missed item is so old the pic dont even show {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
> [{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ieb7zbvl,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-10T21:18:41.485+0000) > > ~~you re~~ **your** missed item is so old, the pic ~~dont~~ does'nt even show > > {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}} nothing i can do about that. has to do with the boards. imgur images are supposed to show. linked it from the lolwiki instead. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/3b/Atma%27s_Impaler_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20171222195203
: MISSED ITEMS
https://imgur.com/oKq7tRd
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=spPFZOq3,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-12-10T19:32:41.769+0000) > > if by "chance at a comback" you mean theyre slightly behind, and it spawns almost infront of their nexus and flings them into a heavy lead, because they can absorb the entire thing practically for free, then yes. I sense hyperbole.
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=spPFZOq3,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-12-10T20:29:11.786+0000) > > I sense hyperbole. its not hyperbole. its literally whats happening. enemy team is slightly behind, the loot teemo is spawning on their side of the map and runs around behind their turret lines. the full value of these things is 20k gold i think? even if its 10k, its still a really large amount and an event buff on top of it for the enemy team. its really fucking frustrating when that happens, because it will win the enemy team the game unless they were already so far behind that at this point its still unfair that they get back into the game for free.
: > so youre saying, they shouldnt get access to items like {{item:3086}} ? > > because it looks to me like marksmen get all the stats they need to carry (not just ONE stat to be relevant) from a few items that provide all of them at the same time. No, I'm not saying they should nerf marksman again we saw how poorly that went last time and honestly I think the class should be left alone in its current state. But even still, isn't that the ADC's job? Carry with auto attack based abilties? And their power comes from late game and finishing their build, not a 10 minute powerspike from a rune simply activating and now being able to dominate their lane and control the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Kingfireblast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sIpxcfxY,comment-id=000600010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-10T20:47:25.042+0000) > > But even still, isn't that the ADC's job? Carry with auto attack based abilties? a lot of the caster champions who buy these cdr items are also carries and their job is the same. the difference between that riven and the marksman is the marksman is a lot more reliable simply because hes ranged and doesnt have to dive into the enemy team to carry.
: > cdr caps out at 40%, which means that riven stops scaling off that stat at that point. > > the varus will just keep scaling off attack speed on the other hand. > > cdr is a caster stat, and caster champions should have easy access to it. the only time it bothered me was the old essence reaver, when marksmen could just fit 30% cdr into a regular critical strike build and scale up their auto attacks and spells at the same time. CDR shouldn't be easy to get because it is what casters need to carry, not what they need to be relevant. ADCs and other auto attack based champs need attack speed to be relevant, once they get enough however (depending on the champion) they'll be able to carry with it, but they need other stats like crit, life steal, and AD. While Riven or Aatrox just need CDR and AD to dominate a game.
> [{quoted}](name=Kingfireblast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sIpxcfxY,comment-id=0006000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-10T20:32:28.463+0000) > > CDR shouldn't be easy to get because it is what casters need to carry, not what they need to be relevant. ADCs and other auto attack based champs need attack speed to be relevant, once they get enough however (depending on the champion) they'll be able to carry with it, but they need other stats like crit, life steal, and AD. While Riven or Aatrox just need CDR and AD to dominate a game. so youre saying, they shouldnt get access to items like {{item:3086}} ? because it looks to me like marksmen get all the stats they need to carry (not just ONE stat to be relevant) from a few items that provide all of them at the same time.
: > complaining that cdr is too easy to get for caster champions is like complaining that attack speed is too easy to get for auto attack focused champions. > > most of the cdr is on items that are designed to empower spells, which makes 100% sense. > > im personally not a fan of the cdr stat shard exactly for the reason that enough cdr is accessable through items, and the fact that it takes until lvl 18 to ramp up makes it simply not worth compared to 10 adaptive force. > > long before the cdr stat shard makes a difference, you could already have 40% cdr with either transcendence and/or blue buff, and two cdr items. Well my complaint is that all of this easy CDR overpowers champions that could be balanced in the game. Being able to be in the game at 10 minutes and have nearly 40% CDR allows a champion like Riven to run away with the game while if we had let's say Varus with a ton of attack speed at 10 minutes it wouldn't be as empowering. You also can't have enough attack speed early on to become a complete menace...unless you get fed of course.
> [{quoted}](name=Kingfireblast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sIpxcfxY,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2018-12-10T20:20:03.300+0000) > > Well my complaint is that all of this easy CDR overpowers champions that could be balanced in the game. Being able to be in the game at 10 minutes and have nearly 40% CDR allows a champion like Riven to run away with the game while if we had let's say Varus with a ton of attack speed at 10 minutes it wouldn't be as empowering. You also can't have enough attack speed early on to become a complete menace...unless you get fed of course. cdr caps out at 40%, which means that riven stops scaling off that stat at that point. the varus will just keep scaling off attack speed on the other hand. cdr is a caster stat, and caster champions should have easy access to it. the only time it bothered me was the old essence reaver, when marksmen could just fit 30% cdr into a regular critical strike build off one item, and scale up their auto attacks and spells at the same time.
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Critmaster Garen

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