saltran (EUW)
: >garen has 50% winrate and hes "a huge problem" You mean 53-54% winrate with more than 10% pickrate right?
> [{quoted}](name=saltran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4qvaMUEW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-16T21:10:26.691+0000) > > You mean 53-54% winrate with more than 10% pickrate right? no i mean actually just above 50% over the course of the last 3 weeks his winrate was 52% on average. sometimes going up to 54% on single days, and down to 51% on others. when the patch dropped 2 days ago, it took a large hit and he fell to 47% winrate. anyone who says something different is either lying or includes low mmr into the statistics. and low mmr means shit for game balance. you cant achieve balance when you try to buff and nerf champions around people who dont understand basic game mechanics. just a couple of minutes ago some bronze player opened a complaint threat about garen, because he couldnt fight the champion on fucking lethality nocturne. excuse me if i cant take these people serious.
: You need a pillow to bite on or was it a hard day at work
> [{quoted}](name=Quiet Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=heBVRl0a,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-16T20:52:46.998+0000) > > You need a pillow to bite on or was it a hard day at work this shit is driving me insane man. i cant have my main being a decent champion for 3 weeks before the boards are flooded with silver and bronze mmr players who think theyre the hottest shit that graced the face of this planet and start complaining about him, before theyre reflecting on what they might have been doing wrong in that game. clearly its not because theyre playing this like a battle royale game and have no idea how to close out games, how to play around cooldown windows, how to even cs, teamfight, rotate arund the map, at which times to even recall in lane, or not to start a fight with a champion that just killed you 30 seconds ago and is now up 300 gold and even more likely to kill you. in this case? lethality vs. armor stacking DOESNT WORK. a total of 36 lethality from items. that was his total amount of armor pen at lvl 18, and hes wondering why he cant beat a garen with at least 100 bonus armor, and possibly more from runes. it doesnt just fail against garen, it doesnt work against any fighter or tank. you build lethality, they build armor, you lose. but he didnt ask what he did wrong. he came here with his incredible amount of competitive experience of a bronze mmr player and started a discussion and tells us how we should balance these champions properly.
Seigsss (NA)
: Garen's current status
for fucks sake. you stacked lethality into a fighter who was stacking armor. your build was shit. your teamcomp was shit. your plays are shit. thats why youre still stuck in bronze. can you fucking learn the basics of the game before you come here and start a discussion about champion balance? like literally, any player with above plat mmr could destroy your games on ap soraka on top lane at your mmr. doesnt this tell you something? like that your issues down there isnt the champions or how strong they are, but the fact youre still have no fucking clue what youre actually doing and that you just migth not be as a good at this game as you think of yourself? that maybe there are SOME aspects of this game that you still have to work out before you can even form an opinion how it should be balanced?
: Ahri 54% win rate and 12.5% pick rate
garen has 50% winrate and hes "a huge problem" yorick had 53% winrate and 2% pickrate and hes "too strong and needs nerfs" meanwhile jhinn and ahri. there are champions who had 54% winrate with high pickrates in the highest divisions for month on end, but as soon as two bruisers are good because of a dumb as shit meta where people are running 5 bursty lethality stackers and other forms of bursty champions without cc, instead of building actual teamcomps, they have to nerf them for the bottom of the ranked ladder after being in the meta for literally 3 weeks. they literally allowed the entire class of marksmen to be broken for a year, before theyve done anything about it, but no. these two champions are such a giant problem right now, being barely above average.
: garen is exceedingly strong at the moment. i dont know enough about his inner workings to know if this is a buff or a nerf.. but... he is in desperate need of nerfs at the moment
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ugg0BJJm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-16T16:55:17.140+0000) > > garen is exceedingly strong at the moment. > > i dont know enough about his inner workings to know if this is a buff or a nerf.. but... > he is in desperate need of nerfs at the moment he already fell off this patch. he didnt deserve nerfs before, since the meta was just fucking stupid and favoured him like crazy. but he certainly doesnt deserve them now. yesterday it was a 6% winrate drop to 47% winrate at plat+ even if he normalizes himself to 50% over the next couple of days, there is literally no reason to nerf him at this point.
Kythers (NA)
: what's the scientific basis behind the screamy guy face?
never forget https://i.imgur.com/OPAEW2P.jpg
Glîtchy (NA)
: When will ADC's be worth playing again?
> [{quoted}](name=Glîtchy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ayVscjHR,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-01T21:10:46.610+0000) > > I miss carrying as Jinx and Twitch. ;-; http://euw.op.gg/champion/statistics jinx is S tier pick right now. there is only one single non marksman in the top 20 bot lane picks atm. its not the champions. is you. what you meant to ask is, "when will riot buff adc to be broken bullshit again, so even noobs can carry on them?". the answer is, hopefully never again.
: Also, according to op.gg, in NA, in the past 30 days, it takes until plat for garen to drop from the #1 winrate spot, doesn't drop out of the top 5 until diamond. His only 50% winrate is in master. In every other rank, he's at least 53% I didn't feel like taking and uploading 8 screenshots so here's a video instead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGXY6OWTCIM (edit) if OP could delete this comment I guarantee he would LMAO pathetic
> [{quoted}](name=SugeMinPikk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-08-16T16:30:39.944+0000) > > Also, according to op.gg, in NA, in the past 30 days, it takes until plat for garen to drop from the #1 winrate spot, doesn't drop out of the top 5 until diamond. His only 50% winrate is in master. In every other rank, he's at least 53% > > I didn't feel like taking and uploading 8 screenshots so here's a video instead > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGXY6OWTCIM > > (edit) if OP could delete this comment I guarantee he would LMAO pathetic the past 30 days are irrelevant when riot just dropped a patch that shifted the top lane meta around again and brought tanks back into the game. why is it important how strong garen was a month ago in a 1 shot meta filled with lethality stackers, when he just dropped heavily in winrate **right now?** the celerity nerfs affected him aswell, since he uses this rune on his highest win % builds. mostly to empower the impact of his q. everything below plat is irrelevant for champion balance. its up to the players down there to improve themsleves. it doesnt make sense trying to balance the game around low mmr. it never did and is completely backwards approach to handling the game. its like changing the rules of chess for everyone, including world champions, because a couple of amateurs have issues understanding the basics of the game. how does this make sense?
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QUtcKrl,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-16T13:06:45.014+0000) > > garen is always a problem for lower elo. > > champions like {{champion:92}} or {{champion:268}} that are mechanically very difficult to play are going to lose more when played by unskilled players than champions with a low skill floor. > > this is logical, not problematic. > > and thats all there is to it. this is a problem of low elo players that they have to deal with by getting better at the game. he is not a problem for the game or an unhealthy champion. > > if its not garen, its darius, if its not darius, its yi. if its not yi, its renekton or nasus. amumu is a god in low elo, when hes usually trash at high mmr, since he is simple to pick up and has high impact in fights. > > you can go down the entire list of champions, and those with a low skill floor will always perform best at low elos. this is not a problem, but a result of the strategic and mechanical inexperience of players down there. > > an inexperienced player will perform better on a simple champion than a mechanically complex champion. this is why you dont buff or nerf champions around low mmr. Again it the logic of the balance team not mine, that what happen to my Wukong and that what will happen to every outdated meta champion sooner or later. I will give you little example why it gamebalance problem, you got {{champion:6}} vs {{champion:86}} in all stages of game as long as it 1v1 urgot got the upper hand over garen but in teamfights garen got the upper hand no matter what cause the stupid tenacity items make him easy to escape cc while urgot can't get tenacity and get slowed by his W which make him so weak to cc. What the game logic here to balance such stuff, to put counter to champions ? Right they buff garen and they leave urgot in gutted status without any power up for the lack of tenacity of {{item:3053}} . If they solved such problems for many garen counter champions, garen won't be a much of problem but nah we got to nerf champion cause we don't want to balance other champions.
> [{quoted}](name=ValiantKiller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QUtcKrl,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2018-08-16T13:19:16.489+0000) > > Again it the logic of the balance team not mine, that what happen to my Wukong and that what will happen to every outdated meta champion sooner or later. > I will give you little example why it gamebalance problem, you got {{champion:6}} vs {{champion:86}} in all stages of game as long as it 1v1 urgot got the upper hand over garen but in teamfights garen got the upper hand no matter what cause the stupid tenacity items make him easy to escape cc while urgot can't get tenacity and get slowed by his W which make him so weak to cc. > What the game logic here to balance such stuff, to put counter to champions ? Right they buff garen and they leave urgot in gutted status without any power up for the lack of tenacity of {{item:3053}} . > If they solved such problems for many garen counter champions, garen won't be a much of problem but nah we got to nerf champion cause we don't want to balance other champions. in your example, urgot and garen are actually balanced towards each other. the garen would focus on teamfighting, the urgot would try to get him into a 1v1 by splitpushing. different strategies exist. its actually the only way to balance these champions to give them different strengths. you probably cant make both of them equally strong at teamfighting and 1v1 at the same time. so one champion being better at 1v1 and one champion being better at teamfighting gives them both options to win a game. by the way, if people dont build stupid as shit teamcomps against garen, and have enchanter supports and a tank in their team to be able to peel him, garen isnt actually good in teamfights. he was just good in teamfights in a meta, where teams consisted of one skirmisher on top lane, 3 assassins mid, jungle and support, and a marksman.
: You forgot Monkey King in your low tier smashers that are trash in high ELO list
> [{quoted}](name=WhoIsThisDude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QUtcKrl,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-16T13:17:06.383+0000) > > You forgot Monkey King in your low tier smashers that are trash in high ELO list i didnt want to list all of them, but ye. you just dont balance around low elo, because its impossible. individual strategic and mechanical mistakes of these players outshadow the subtle power difference in champions way too much. if you start balancing the game around low mmr, you cant balance it for high mmr and competitive. its completely backwards aswell. if someone sucks at playing football in his backard, you dont change the rules of the game or the shape of the ball for everyone, including major league and world championship for those guys who are still learning to kick it into the right direction.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QUtcKrl,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-16T12:46:05.611+0000) > > Why should we balance around those players though, they don't understand balance in the slightest and always use the best case scenarios for champions. Seriously, every low elo players complaints about a champion look like this: > > Whine about a champion's strength > Fail to note the mistakes that lead to them getting killed > Lie about what really happened > Ignore any and all suggestions about beating said champion > NEVER mention a single one of the champion's flaws, which everyone champion DOES have > Circlejerk QQ > > Oh, and 99% of the time, said players have NEVER played the champion they are complaining about. > > Why should we take balance ideas from players like this, because they are the majority, that is how the game got to the current state, when does it end? Cause if you like it or not, Garen is a problem right now and he is a binary champion that can make comeback in game with his true damage villain thing. And he one of the simplest champions in this game mean he a good pick for low elo without any direct counter which sucks for them, people in high was able to deal with {{champion:62}} but riot just gutted him for the love of low elo as well. So why not the same happen to garen ? as {{champion:62}} main, he had many easy weaknes that no one in low elo able to use against him including his weak laning and jungling he not able to fight against tankers and juggernauts a good warding against him easy to make him not able to move around freely since he doesn't have permanent hide like Eve neither he able to R on you from out no where like Noc. Yet riot decide to nerf him to ground cause low elo people can't do any of that, welcome to balance team. Instead of fixing problem of champions they nerf without thinking.
> [{quoted}](name=ValiantKiller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QUtcKrl,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-16T13:02:31.627+0000) > > Cause if you like it or not, Garen is a problem right now garen is always a problem for lower elo. champions like {{champion:92}} or {{champion:268}} that are mechanically very difficult to play are going to lose more when played by unskilled players than champions with a low skill floor. this is logical, not problematic. and thats all there is to it. this is a problem of low elo players that they have to deal with by getting better at the game. he is not a problem for the game or an unhealthy champion. if its not garen, its darius, if its not darius, its yi. if its not yi, its renekton or nasus. amumu is a god in low elo, when hes usually trash at high mmr, since he is simple to pick up and has high impact in fights. you can go down the entire list of champions, and those with a low skill floor will always perform best at low elos. this is not a problem, but a result of the strategic and mechanical inexperience of players down there. an inexperienced player will perform better on a simple champion than a mechanically complex champion. this is why you dont buff or nerf champions around low mmr but let people figure out the game by themselves.
KnifeCat (OCE)
: Riot needs to stop overbuffing champions just because they aren’t “meta”
> [{quoted}](name=KnifeCat,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QUtcKrl,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-16T12:11:02.986+0000) > > This new habit of slowly overbuffing champs over numerous patches (because they aren’t Meta) is really dumb. > Look at Garen. This guy is a monstrosity right now. His villain mechanic is incredibly unfun to play against. You basically get punished for trying to carry the game. once that mark is on you, he can be 0-4 and a level down but he will almost instantly delete you with q/ult, especially if he has tri force. > Garen has been getting buff after buff after buff every few patches for like a year now .. > > Udyr and Zed have also gotten similar treatment. Zed can now be 1-9, and miss almost everything and still oneshot you (yes that exact scenario did happen to me recently). Meanwhile Udyr’s level 2/3 is probably more insane than Talon’s.. No body plays Udyr but he’s honestly strong as fuck. youre maining assassins. any strong fighter is going to be unfun to play against for you, because fighters tend to beat assassins. especially juggernauts that cant just easily get bursted down. its not like {{champion:107}} is a particularly fun champion to play against in general.
KnifeCat (OCE)
: Riot needs to stop overbuffing champions just because they aren’t “meta”
garen dropped to 47% winrate when 8.16 hit. most sites havent updated yet. and weak champions deserve buffs. just because he was strong for 3 weeks, because the meta was a bullshit 1 shot fiesta of assassins and lethality marksmen, where he thrives because you cant just 1 shot a garen, doesnt mean he is a problem. during that entire time, even when he was strong in the meta, he was a fair and balanced champion. its just that people built idiotic teamcomps and item builds, because they used to work when there wasnt a garen in the game. its the same back when riot overbuffed the shit out of marksmen in season 6 and season 7 and rammus and malphite suddenly shot up in winrate and became meta.
: First of all, what else is gonna happen when you get hit with the BIGGEST SNOWBALL EVER! There's no "fall over" mechanic. Secondly, Nunu is meant to be a tank, utility champion, all they did was give him more utility to help, not to mention it does shit for damage. From what I've seen, it's not a normal riot tank ability where the base is so high you don't need AP. All it is is a unique and interesting ability that knocks up for a small amount of time.
> [{quoted}](name=Recon1212,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kt1vELlc,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-08-15T23:27:11.656+0000) > > First of all, what else is gonna happen when you get hit with the BIGGEST SNOWBALL EVER! There's no "fall over" mechanic. > > Secondly, Nunu is meant to be a tank, utility champion, all they did was give him more utility to help, not to mention it does shit for damage. From what I've seen, it's not a normal riot tank ability where the base is so high you don't need AP. All it is is a unique and interesting ability that knocks up for a small amount of time. how about a stun for a change?
Danjeng (NA)
: They are planning to nerf him next patch. Luckily it will be a nerf targeted mainly at lower elos, with less effect on high elo.
> [{quoted}](name=Danjeng,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oMy5uATx,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-16T00:38:42.209+0000) > > They are planning to nerf him next patch. Luckily it will be a nerf targeted mainly at lower elos, with less effect on high elo. i dont think theyll nerf him, if that 47% winrate sticks.
Talh (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oMy5uATx,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2018-08-15T20:59:10.198+0000) > > its always like this. > > a bunch of silver and gold experts seem to know everything about champion balance and what is best for the game. > > instead of looking at a champion and saying "hey, hes much weaker higher up the ladder, maybe im doing something wrong trying to fight them" theyll keep crying for nerfs. The win rates are basically the same from Silver to Plat+. Garen is overpowered right now. https://champion.gg/champion/Garen/Top?&league=platplus
> [{quoted}](name=Talh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oMy5uATx,comment-id=0010000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-16T06:14:00.131+0000) > > The win rates are basically the same from Silver to Plat+. Garen is overpowered right now. https://champion.gg/champion/Garen/Top?&league=platplus those winrates are for 8.15 not this current patch. when the new patch dropped, garen dropped by 6% in winrate. turns out, when people arent building shitty ass teamcomps of 5 squishy carries, and are picking some cc intoi their teams, garen isnt actually as unstoppable as everyone wants to make it seem.
GAMERMANA (EUNE)
: high elo garen is bad yes but not in low elo if he isnt used except in low elo then why not nerf him. high elo players wont even mind because they dont play him and low elo players will feel much more better
> [{quoted}](name=GAMERMANA,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oMy5uATx,comment-id=00100001,timestamp=2018-08-16T09:44:22.171+0000) > > if he isnt used except in low elo then why not nerf him. are you fucking kidding? so because people who are generally bad at the game are bad with dealing with the champion, youre saying they should nerf him instead of those players just learning to get better? what kind of fucking backwards balancing is this? garen wasnt competitive in pro play and challenger, but you could at least make it into masters by playing with him, before the meta shifted and his winrate spiked. now the meta shifted again, and he fell off again. there is no reason at all to nerf him at this point. people who are asking for nerfs, just dont like dealing with the champion. that shouldnt be a reason to actually let them get through.
Danjeng (NA)
: Let me restate that I don't play against Garen nor do I have trouble against him. I AM the Garen player, and I use him as a COUNTERPICK not a BLIND PICK. I feel pretty damn bad for the opposing laner who has no chance of even threatening me. He definitely has his weaknesses, but he's pretty damn strong now imo. I know I'm not high elo though and my opinion doesn't matter, so I guess I'm wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=Danjeng,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oMy5uATx,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-15T21:29:38.038+0000) > > but he's pretty damn strong now imo. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/ the green graph on the left. he dropped to 47% winrate. diamond+ he dropped from 53% to 36%. the reason why he was "strong" is because people built teamcomps with like 2 or 3 assassins, an adc and a skirmisher on top lane. in a burst meta where assassins are strong, garen is simply strong, because he counters all the bullshit thats running around. the celerity nerf hit him too. if they nerf him at this point, id be suprised.
: Thanks for not giving Nunu the ability to dash over walls in the rework
but they couldnt stop themselves and had to give him a knockup.
: Garen is a bruiser if i have to decide between Sunfire and Deadmans, Deamans allways win. Sunfire is after the nerfs it received crap. Its a waste of Gold
> [{quoted}](name=Gód Kíng Garen,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEFnFy3J,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-08-15T19:15:07.317+0000) > > Garen is a bruiser if i have to decide between Sunfire and Deadmans, Deamans allways win. Sunfire is after the nerfs it received crap. Its a waste of Gold i think the real problem is that {{item:3077}} active doesnt count towards stormraider when it should. for some reason, bamis cinder trigger the keystone, but not tiamat active. and tiamat triggers electrocute and i think bamis cinder doesnt work with that one. (never ran that combination since it doesnt make much sense) its weird really.
: Petition to get Stormraiders Surge back instead of Phase Rush
both has advantages and disadvantages. against squishy targets, stormraider was easier to proc at times. against tanky targrts you couldnt proc it at all. but phase rush works the same against tanky targets and squishy targets. {{item:3751}} damage counts towards stormraider, which means for garen a q+e is enough to trigger the keystone with the item.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oMy5uATx,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-08-15T20:14:06.002+0000) > > garen almost dropped 6% in winrate from 8.15 to 8.16 > > this only proves that youre just terrible no matter how strong or how weak the champion is. Notice how everyone complaining about Garen in this post is low gold or lower, because I do.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oMy5uATx,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2018-08-15T20:53:27.892+0000) > > Notice how everyone complaining about Garen in this post is low gold or lower, because I do. its always like this. a bunch of silver and gold experts seem to know everything about champion balance and what is best for the game. instead of looking at a champion and saying "hey, hes much weaker higher up the ladder, maybe im doing something wrong trying to fight them" theyll keep crying for nerfs.
: Garen has a 53% win rate in plat and above. https://m.u.gg/?role=top Nerf. Garen.
> [{quoted}](name=Atmosphere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZOJPUgW3,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-15T05:09:43.674+0000) > > Garen has a 53% win rate in plat and above. > > https://m.u.gg/?role=top > > Nerf. Garen. 47% actually as of today when the patch hit. youre all garbage, and no matter what they do with the champion youll keep losing against him. because you rather come here to complain about him insetad of learning to build teamcomps or counterplay.
GAMERMANA (EUNE)
: Garen has gotten out of hand.
garen almost dropped 6% in winrate from 8.15 to 8.16 this only proves that youre just terrible no matter how strong or how weak the champion is.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 15
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=NjvuRnlo,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-15T14:31:43.512+0000) > > http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png i know its early to say, but yoricks winrate dropped by 3% with this patch. garens winrate dropped from 53% to 47% at plat+ so can we cancel the nerfs at this point and not completely trash these champions? i understand that it has only been one day, but honestly a drop in winrate was to be expected, when people pick at least some utility into their teams again with tanks, instead of 5 assassins and carries. im extremely concerned, that theyre just going to get wiped off the face of the earth with a nerf on top of a meta shift that is already occuring.
: The Juggernaut Club: Part 60
i dont feel like its a good idea to give him his cannon back.
: Fix ADC
your build is shit, and you probably lost the game early. and what the fuck is your teamcomp anyways? why do you expect to win with 5 squishy carries, no supports and no frontliners? the enemy team had a more balanced teamcomp than you. the only difference is that they didnt have a ranged carry. but they had cc, teamfight initiation and support for the darius. you didnt have shit to open a fight, or support your backline, because your entire team was backline carries. when nautilus ults, who is going to peel for you? no one.
: dude please don't try and defend garen when he has those statistics in high elo that's indicative of an issue when the easiest champion in the game has no losing matchups and stomps all elos
> [{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G7WLgjFA,comment-id=00040001000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-13T16:45:57.543+0000) > > dude please don't try and defend garen when he has those statistics in high elo > > that's indicative of an issue when the easiest champion in the game has no losing matchups and stomps all elos "no losing matchups" is complete bullshit. garen always has had little success in the past, because he has a lot of bad matchups. and 52% winrate isnt crazy. there have been champions at 54% for month and years in the past. hes clearly not too strong, but just a smidge above average.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: riot always cared about all tiers of elo blame your champion for having a trash design that can't be balanced around all tiers rather than riot
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G7WLgjFA,comment-id=00040001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-13T15:27:04.858+0000) > > riot always cared about all tiers of elo > blame your champion for having a trash design that can't be balanced around all tiers rather than riot riot usually doesnt care about anything below plat. and they shouldnt. dont blame my champion, i blame the people at low mmr for not yet understanding how the game really works, but demanding that champions get nerfed around their inexperience. like if you nerf garen and yorick, its 100% going to be darius thats going to be complained around next patch. well see how this goes. garens winrate has been declining a bit. when lolalytics updates its stats, no one can post ridiculous out of context winrates for him anymore. over the course of the next patch tanks are being brought back into the meta a bit, which might change things again. nothing is set in stone yet, and nerfs might not actually make it to live.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: So? Garen is broken in low mmr that is their problem Darius isn't broken in low mmr else riot's stats that they have in their HQ would have told them that and they would have nerfed him beside, I find Garen very oppressive in higher tiers as well
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G7WLgjFA,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2018-08-13T14:42:05.218+0000) > > So? Garen is broken in low mmr that is their problem its not a problem. its a problem that low mmr has to deal with and solve by themselves. either way, its not fair to nerf garen or yorick for low mmr. if anything, they can ty tuning them a bit with power shifts in their kits to make them less strong at low mmr while just as strong as they are now at high mmr. but if they cant lessen their impact at low mmr without nerfing them at high mmr they shouldnt touch them at all, and just have the players deal with it. because at the end of the day, these players are still learning the basics of the game. if a champion has almost 50% winrate at high mmr then there are obviously ways to play around that champion, that players at low mmr simply havent learned yet or are unwilling to utilize. in that case its their own problem.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Darius has 49% win rate in plat+ with 11% pick rate Garen has 54% win rate in plat+ with 11% pick rate Yorick has 53.5% win rate in plat+ with 3.5% pick rate (doesn't deserve a nerf) https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/home/
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G7WLgjFA,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-13T11:21:53.999+0000) > > Darius has 49% win rate in plat+ with 11% pick rate > Garen has 54% win rate in plat+ with 11% pick rate > Yorick has 53.5% win rate in plat+ with 3.5% pick rate (doesn't deserve a nerf) > > > https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/home/ look at the winrate over time graph. over the course of the last week, garens winrate dropped to 52%. i dont know what lolalytics does, but they somehow just took the highest winrate garen had over the past couple of weeks on a single day and displayed that as his general winrate. league of graphs and even op.gg all show 52% winrate for garen at plat+ now. at diamond his winrate drops to 50% his average plat+ winrate has been stable at 52% over the last 3 patches.
: Well if you want to nerf Garen and Yorick, you should nerf daruis too
or how about not nerfing any of them for the worst players in this game?
CLG ear (NA)
: post ur wallpaper in this thread
i removed the text on the bottom left corner in my version, but thats the one im using. https://i.imgur.com/LTPigfM.jpg
SheapMag11 (EUNE)
: its fun if you have friends and ii dont think you should get banned for doing it in a game of blind pick.
> [{quoted}](name=SheapMag11,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wy3eYgLt,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-12T16:13:52.107+0000) > > its fun if you have friends and ii dont think you should get banned for doing it in a game of blind pick. blind pick is casual and trolly to begin with. id say it should still be allowed there. like if youre playing blind pick, youre not playing serious from the start, since your matchups are essentially entirely random to the point where you even might end up in a mirror match. the skill level of people who are matched with and against you is also entirely random. id say having fun with random shit is more important than winning in that mode. from casual to serious its - aram/normal blind/rotating gamemodes - normal draft - ranked solo/duo if you want to do shit like ap assassin jungle bard, mid lane ap ashe, or ultimate bravery, then blind pick is the way to go. if you want to play somewhat serious, but not stress about winning or losing too much, just que up for normal draft.
Death Rex (EUW)
: Regarding those Garen coming nerfs / changes... here is my mini rework suggestion
i still hope that the tank buffs, and electrocute nerfs next patch are changing things around enough for riot to can the nerfs to yorick and garen. if they lose 1% or 2% winrate because of the increased amount of cc in games, because mages and tanks might increase in play rate, it would probably be enough for them to reconsider. i honestly dont think its fair, that people typically building shitty teamcomps with 4 to 5 assassins/carries in this meta isnt allowed to be punished by picking garen or other bruisers into them. its a similar situation like back when rammus and malphite shot up in winrate, because riot obverbuffed adc and people played teamcomps with 2 or even 3 marksmen, and the two anti adc tanks started to shine because of it. why is it that in these cases its always the counters that get nerfed instead of the problematic champions or mechanics that create entirely onesided metas?
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: {{item:3116}} How? I donno, like you have 0 damage to contribute to the team in a damage centric meta and for an item that works fine on link 15% of the AP champs. This shouldn't be the case but this is how it is > if i have to rush as second item on garen Wow, you're garen. That champion is made in such a way that even if you build 0 damage, full tank, you still get a kill and threaten the rest.
> [{quoted}](name=GripaAviara,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bFZgwboB,comment-id=000e00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-11T21:30:18.337+0000) > > {{item:3116}} How? I donno, like you have 0 damage to contribute to the team in a damage centric meta and for an item that works fine on link 15% of the AP champs. This shouldn't be the case but this is how it is > > Wow, you're garen. That champion is made in such a way that even if you build 0 damage, full tank, you still get a kill and threaten the rest. i ask you again. 90 ap for 2600 gold. how again does this not contribute enough to your damage? most other ap items provide less. not to mention, most mages still contribute with their utlility, even when theyre not dealing crazy damage. its not that the item is bad or the wrong choice in that scenario. its literally just your unwillingness to adapt.
: If it matters whether or not a champion is only broken in Diamond+, it also matters when that champion is only broken in Gold and below.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iMI2uIFj,comment-id=0001000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-10T22:53:16.557+0000) > > If it matters whether or not a champion is only broken in Diamond+, it also matters when that champion is only broken in Gold and below. it really doesnt. individual champion balance is outshadowed by peoples individual mistakes in lower divisions. thats why the attempt to balance the game around lower divisions is entirely futile and can not be achieved while still balancing it for high mmr AND pro play. its difficult enough as it is to balance the game around high mmr solo que and pro play at the same time. its up to the player to familiarize themselves with the basic mechanics of the game, and get better of it. not up to riot to nerf champions around players inexperience. you dont shoot a professional athlete in the knee, because some amateur wants to be able to compete in the same race with him. if the amateur wants to compete, he has to train to get faster and not everyone around him made slower.
: Nerfing Garen & Yorick is fine, just do it carefully.
a power shift would be fine. a nerf is not. neither of those champions are a problem at high mmr. if they want to give them a set of buffs and nerfs that lowers their impact at low mmr, but keeps their viability at high mmr the same, then fine. but they dont deserve blanket nerfs. they shouldnt even consider nerfs when the next patch is going to cause a meta shift to bring tanks back into top lane, and celerity is being nerfed in the same patch, which is going to hit garen indirectly.
: Global being rank-wise, not region-wise.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iMI2uIFj,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-10T22:10:45.338+0000) > > Global being rank-wise, not region-wise. thats even worse. youre including the lowest levels of play that shouldnt even be considered for champion balance, then of course his winrate is going to look inflated.
: Google Translate activate! >These facts don't fit my narrative, so I'm going to ignore them! There. Translated your sentence out of boards-speak into English. You can't just ignore facts because you don't like them.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iMI2uIFj,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T22:11:52.837+0000) > > Google Translate activate! > > There. Translated your sentence out of boards-speak into English. > > You can't just ignore facts because you don't like them. ironic, considering rexxiee is a riven main who demanded to nerf garen after claiming that garen had 15% pick rate and 56% winrate above plat, because he took the play rate at the release day of his new skin, and the highest winrate value on a single day he could find that occured almost a week later. global stats tend to include all regions, even the non competitive ones where players skill levels are on average lower than the big competitive regions NA, EU, and KR. this distorts the global winrates of garen in this case by a couple % points.
: *Globally* he has a 54% winrate. "Isn't even that good" lmfao
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iMI2uIFj,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T21:45:07.830+0000) > > *Globally* he has a 54% winrate. > > "Isn't even that good" lmfao im sorry. of course we need to look at the global stats and include highly competitive regions like vietnam, and brazil. his winrate has been varying from 51% to 53% on the major regions during the past couple weeks. not month. in korea its still 50% in plat+ and actually below 50% in diamond+ right now. he was doing well for about a month now, but not to the point where he would deserve nerfs.
Rexxiee (NA)
: diamond + wr: 53.5% pick rate: 11% Nice "low mmr" here, garen has absurd stats at ALL elos.
> [{quoted}](name=Rexxiee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-08-10T20:46:17.489+0000) > > diamond + wr: 53.5% pick rate: 11% > > Nice "low mmr" here, garen has absurd stats at ALL elos. ya, thats believable. because you didnt make up shit before. like back when you said that he had a 15% play rate and 56% winrate. because you took the play rate on the release day of his new skin, and the highest variance value in winrate ind diamond+ on a single day about a week later. surely you just dont want to see him nerfed, because youre a riven main and dont like playing against him.
: garen and yorick nerfs for the bottom level mmr
the main thing im trying to fight for now, is that they dont just straight nerf those champions, but at the very least give them power shifts with a set of buffs together with these nerfs, that preserve their viability at high mmr when theyre reducing their impact at low mmr. a straight nerf to these champions would honestly just be a slap to the face. for garen they should shave some damage off his q and buff the animation speed on the ability. this would mean at low mmr hed get nerfed, but at high mmr hed trade damage for reliability to apply his silence before his opponents cram movement, cc or other abilities into the time the animation takes to play. for example even if you stand right next to an ally, you will never be able to prevent a {{champion:238}} from ulting your buddy with decisive strike. the animation speed is too slow to have a chance to connect before zeds ult goes off, and he will always 100% reliably be able to ult even if you react to him perfectly. the long animation timer of garens q has a larger impact at high mmr where people have better reaction times, compared to low mmr. it also makes the ability a rather shitty auto attack cancel, which is another mechanic that people in the lowest divisions arent using consistently. yorick shouldnt even be touched at all to be honest.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: i'm not using championgg i'm using opgg and lolalytics opgg has been listed by meddler as the most reliable source once
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-10T20:02:10.009+0000) > > i'm not using championgg > > i'm using opgg and lolalytics > opgg has been listed by meddler as the most reliable source once once. like i said, they havent been reliable sources anymore. mostly since riot changed their api, that these sites used to collect their data. like i said. meddler literally wrote it out for you. those nerfs are targeted at low mmr play, not high mmr play.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T19:43:51.638+0000) > > based on what? win rate, pick rate, cs per minute, KDA >league of graph so you list a single website, when 2 others show other stats enjoy his nerf fam
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T19:54:48.626+0000) > > win rate, pick rate, cs per minute, KDA > > so you list a single website, when 2 others show other stats > > enjoy his nerf fam those other two sites have been known to be quite unreliable recently. i stopped using champion.gg when it listed garen as one of the best counters to garen.
: Not my yorick D:
> [{quoted}](name=MOLTinaTOR,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-10T19:41:23.780+0000) > > Not my yorick D: i dont agree with that either.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: is listed tier 1 by opgg he has 54% win rate in plat + 53% win rate in diamond+ high pick rate https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/diamond/plus/champion/Garen/
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T19:38:54.566+0000) > > is listed tier 1 by opgg based on what? the decision of the people who are running the site. if you want to climb to plat with him, then yes hes probably the best top laner right now. at higher ratings, there are still stronger and more impactful champions. his winrate. for plat+ : https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/garen/platinum across all regions just below 52% NA almost 53% EUW same KR 49.6% in diamond+, his winrate ranges from 44% in korea to 51% in NA overall hes slightly on the strong side at higher mmr, but not op territory and not enough to warrant nerfs. meddler literally said, that theyre nerfing both champions because theyre "too strong at low mmr". i even quoted him for you.
: Garen, I can understand because he's in a somewhat absurd spot right now. Yorick, not so much.
> [{quoted}](name=EvilUnicornLord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K1mUdcmj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-08-10T19:01:43.964+0000) > > Garen, I can understand because he's in a somewhat absurd spot right now. > > Yorick, not so much. garen is 100% fine. he just falls short of 52% winrate at plat+ and his play rate is slowly declining. yorick has an even higher winrate than him (he doesnt deserve to get nerfed either.) theyre literally just nerfing those two champions for the lowest divions. the only thing i can hope for is thatthe game changes with tanks being back in the meta next patch makes them can those nerfs, and if theyre still insisting on them that they at least give them power shifts to be still viable above plat.
Wacky9 (NA)
: Very few pros play Yorick on a regular basis. He's been picked like 15 times in the entire LCS so far. As far as I know they want to balance him in lower MMR, but really Yorick isn't that powerful.
> [{quoted}](name=Wacky9,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K1mUdcmj,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-08-10T18:12:10.261+0000) > > Very few pros play Yorick on a regular basis. He's been picked like 15 times in the entire LCS so far. As far as I know they want to balance him in lower MMR, but really Yorick isn't that powerful. the reasoning is beyond sad actially. > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=upj64E0i,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-10T15:29:19.292+0000) > > - Garen nerf - Garen's too strong at this point. We'll be looking to take power out in ways that nerfs him more in lower MMR, less in high, given it's low MMR that he's particularly out of line > - Yorick nerf - Same deal as Garen, targeting low MMR
: I _was_ going to guess Talon only because people have been complaining about Duskblade and Eletrocute for months and he uses them both. However riot is releasing a skin for him so I'm going to say he's out of the running. Anyways, looking at the list of excluded champs I see: 2 tops 5 junglers 2 mids (no victorious mids) 4 ADCs 4 supports Top and Mid are really neglected. Yasuo would be interesting because I don't think I've seen him get a skin for awhile and he fills both the top and mid lane roles.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gnIXKRYd,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-10T18:29:11.311+0000) > > Top and Mid are really neglected. as if that makes a difference. remember when everyone expected an ultimate skin for a top laner since it was the only position that didnt get one yet? instead we got a second bot lane marksman ultimate with mf. its possible, but i dont expect top lane to get one tbh. especially since its still the least influential role.
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Critmaster Garen

Level 12 (NA)
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