: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-10-17T18:29:18.542+0000) > > do you understand how base damage and ap scalings work? > > he doesnt get more damage from this. but hed need to build ap to get the same damage he has now. So tell me how will this help his mid lane? All you are doing is making him weaker until he gets a bunch of items
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2018-10-18T23:32:06.053+0000) > > So tell me how will this help his mid lane? All you are doing is making him weaker until he gets a bunch of items it doesnt. it just kicks him out of support. if the really struggles mid lane after that, hed probably need adjustments to the rest of his kit. like mana costs, or base damage on his w. i dont want him to be useless, but i want not to be afraid of him blowing me up when he doesnt buy items, and i want to be able to shut him down and prevent him from scaling. brands job isnt that of a champion who waveclears and roams into bot lane, like an assassin, or long range mage like lux. instead he scales into a teamfight threat similar to annie. > So what you want is for him to be useless until he gets a bunch of items? yes? like pretty much every other carry? because thats what brand is. he has shit for utility and his entire kit is burst + dps with health shredding over time, and his damage scales insanely well into lategame because of it. the fact that a almost 100% damage focused mage with almost no utility except for that single target stun is still playable in support (not in the carry role, which would be fine) speaks for itself. his base damage is massively overtuned, and he should be changed around to scale with gold and big ap items, and get pushed back into the solo lane (or at least out of support. duo lane is actually fine, if hes the one who farms for gold and doesnt just auto scale).
: Why does he needs more damage ? He already one shots with a combo having 1 item.
> [{quoted}](name=SeventhFeeIing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-10-17T17:54:16.686+0000) > > Why does he needs more damage ? He already one shots with a combo having 1 item. do you understand how base damage and ap scalings work? he doesnt get more damage from this. but hed need to build ap to get the same damage he has now.
LankPants (OCE)
: Exact same problem as Zyra, why would anyone ever build AP when it takes 860 AP (in Zyra's case) to double the damage on one of your major sources of damage. It's so obvious why these champs are played the way they are and the solution is also incredibly obvious.
> [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-10-17T06:30:01.513+0000) > > Exact same problem as Zyra, why would anyone ever build AP when it takes 860 AP (in Zyra's case) to double the damage on one of your major sources of damage. It's so obvious why these champs are played the way they are and the solution is also incredibly obvious. its also close to impossible for him to be irelevant. in almost any situation, all brand has to do to win the fight for his team is to get a decent r off. a skirmish can start with him getting caught out, but if you dont kill him before he pressed that one button (well, and his e), he already did most of his job.
Tusutaki (NA)
: Season 9 Runes suggestion (Resolve Tree)
demolish should grant a defensive bonus, either every time any turret falls on the map, or every time you get a turret takedown/assist. something like 50 health in the second case. unflinching should grant a stacking tenacity + slow resist bonus for every individual cc youve been hit by (including knockups), to prevent cc chaining from getting out of hand. it doesnt have to be crazy high, but like 5% would be good. i think the real "problem" with boneplating in r1 isnt that its overtuned, but that the other two runes in that row simply grant no defensive stats. demolish is also unreliable a lot of the time, even when you get into position to siege an enemy turret with your team. i noticed, that turrets that are sieged by 5 people often fall faster than the proc takes to wind up, which is kindof insane. so even in a scenario where you should be able to use the rune, its pretty wasted if that 500 damage proc is ready when the turret is already at 100 health, and your team would take it down either way.
: I think a 2.5% ap ratio is a bit much Most mages have 600-700 AP lategame, so on top of the 5% base it would be as high as 20-22.5% lategame. And thats just one spell. Id say 1-1.5%. Or make it not max hp damage.
> [{quoted}](name=JamesTheMage15,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-10-16T22:12:38.312+0000) > > I think a 2.5% ap ratio is a bit much > > Most mages have 600-700 AP lategame, so on top of the 5% base it would be as high as 20-22.5% lategame. And thats just one spell. > > Id say 1-1.5%. Or make it not max hp damage. the scaling portion is already at 1.5% per 100 ap. with the base damage that is at 12% to 16% dependent on level, it already gets up to 25% when he stacks 800 ap. im talking about the 3 stack proc.
: As a Garen main, this ability is so OP and needs to be nerfed
they already nerfed this ability. he cant do pushups during his spin animation anymore. pls no more nerfs. it went too far already. almost the entire power budget of his emotes was in his spin pushups. he cant even recall during his spin anymroe. they gutted his emotes man.
: That's probably why it scales so little to begin with.
> [{quoted}](name=Carnicore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-10-16T21:18:18.229+0000) > > That's probably why it scales so little to begin with. but the base damage is insanely high. they have a lot of room to shift power from the base value into the scaling. and its not just the level scaling base value itself. {{item:3151}} also adds a flat base to his passive.
Ætheist (NA)
: How do you counter Int Sion?
my first instinct is to pick a champion and item build that scales up on his deaths. stack champions like {{champion:31}} who still gain a huge advantage out of killing him even when hes worth 50 gold, because he inted 10 times in a row for your turret, or items like {{item:1082}} and {{item:3041}} that make you become ridiculous off his inting. he might get your outer turret if he dies often enough. maybe even your t2 turret. but youre now either a 6000 health monster and he cant get near your next turret, while no one on his team can threaten you, or have 800 ap at 25 minutes and its the same deal. like {{champion:68}} could just build a {{item:1082}} and then go into his usual {{item:3151}} , and upgrade the dark seal when its stacked. if sion keeps inting to him, he just needs 1 good fight and an ult to destroy the enemy team.
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dnwAITkp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-16T03:06:36.728+0000) > > No > > Some champs can be simpler or harder. That's fine. You shouldn't design a champ to be bad to master the game with. If you go into it with that mentality, that's the wrong mentality. > > Not every champ should be easy to play in low elo, but if you aren't viable in high elo, you aren't worth learning since the point of the game is to climb elo. I understand your point, but champions like Garen were purposefully designed to be benchmark champions for proceeding in the game. That's also why they never have been and never will be in pro play.
> [{quoted}](name=Whistersnivet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dnwAITkp,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-16T03:19:03.857+0000) > > I understand your point, but champions like Garen were purposefully **designed to be benchmark champions for proceeding in the game.** then a 56% or higher winrate at low elo, and a 50% winrate in diamond+ would do this wonderfully. because a 50% or lower winrate at low elo wouldnt be a benchmark. you really didnt think that argument through, did you?
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: you think mages get 700 ap? god how can people be so ** jesus
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-16T19:45:05.003+0000) > > you think mages get 700 ap? > > god how can people be so ** jesus you get it if you build dcap.
: Here is the problem with Brand in bot lane, you are building mid lane anyways, never seen Brand build Censer or Redemption; it's still Rylais, Lyandries, Deathcap
> [{quoted}](name=L Rayquaza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-16T19:12:49.776+0000) > > Here is the problem with Brand in bot lane, you are building mid lane anyways, never seen Brand build Censer or Redemption; it's still Rylais, Lyandries, Deathcap still, its to 90% his high base damage on the passive that makes him a support. he scales no matter what he builds, as long as he gets levels. if the scaling was changed to low base damage and high ap scaling, it would mean hes a lot more dependent on gold to scale, and the lvl 1 base damage would be low enough that hes unplayable in support. it would be a difference of 12% to between 1% and 2% at lvl 1.
Danjeng (NA)
: I like the direction of higher scaling and lower base, but your values are a nerf even to full AP mid Brand, ~~only breaking even at 800 AP~~. Assuming full build Brand has 500 raw AP (high estimate, it's actually lower) from items, plus Rabadon's passive, he still only has 700 AP. Edit: Brand would actually need 1100 AP to break even, which is not possible unless he builds Seraph's + RoA + Rabadon's + Spellbinder, two other high AP items, Infernal Drakes, and Baron buff. Brand supp is cancer but your values are absolutely wack. --------- _**MATHS**_ Live Values: 16% base (+1.5% per 100 AP) Post Values: 5% base (+2.5% per 100 AP) Where x = AP .16 + (.015x) = .05 + (.025x) .11 + (.015x) = (.025x) .11 = .01x 1100 = x It would take 540 AP to just _match_ a live value Brand with 0 AP. --------- Do I think Brand supp is cancer? Yes. However I am a man of maths and won't let that cloud my judgement.
> [{quoted}](name=Danjeng,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-16T19:01:59.809+0000) > > I like the direction of high scaling and lower base, but your values are a nerf even to full AP mid Brand, only breaking even at 800 AP. considering that the value is really fucking high right now, breaking even at a high ap value makes sense. especially since in the original case with his current scaling, i assumed 800 ap aswell. otherwise it gets absurd, when he does finally stack a lot of ap. maybe put the point to break even at 700 ap, but it shouldnt be too low.
Rioter Comments
Rouxful (NA)
: We can only hope that in the new ranked system, this will magically fix itself
> [{quoted}](name=Rouxful,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZAPt8rEi,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-10-16T12:09:03.694+0000) > > We can only hope that in the new ranked system, this will magically fix itself the rank system and the matchmaking system are two different things. dont expect anything to change. im also pretty sure riot engineers this on purpose (not directly, but those win and loss streaks are a side effect of the forced 50% winrate matchmaking), because they want to keep people interested and playing over the course of the entire season, and not cap out on their rank after 2 weeks of playing and then lose interest, as they only slowly improve from there as they improve their play. so riot artificially slows down the climb itself to make it take several month instead of weeks.
Rioter Comments
Rylalei (EUNE)
: What champions not designed by CT would make people cry if they were CT designs
garen as CT design is literally darius. as far as i understand, he was made by stattik and certainlyt. darius was made at a time where riot was releasing champions on a 2 week schedule, and instead of reworking older champions or fixing their issues, they just released a new and better version of the existing champion.
Zerenza (NA)
: Inting Sion Strategy.
> [{quoted}](name=Zerenza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g4N0pLOV,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-14T15:45:08.763+0000) > > Okay, so what your telling me, is that i can win the game by completely going against everything the game is? the game is about objectives. getting kills, farming and anything else is just a means to take them. so is inting on sion. without judging if the strategy is healthy or unhealthy for the game, it doesnt break any rules.
Yenn (NA)
: Top/jungle are aggressively auto-filled in almost all of my ranked games
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TWasy2JM,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-12T23:48:46.396+0000) > >I would rather wait 5 minutes in queue to get a decent game i would rather they finally reduced bot lanes impact on the game. jungle and mid only have game agency by proxy, because they can influence who wins bot lane with roams or ganks. or buff tp again to early season 7 state, so top can at least be part of these dumbass clusterfucks down there, if they dont want to get rid of them. either fix bot lane, or allow us to 5 man dive, instead of watching how our team is 4 man diving their adc (or their team is diving ours) at 6 minutes.
Yenn (NA)
: Top/jungle are aggressively auto-filled in almost all of my ranked games
big fucking surprise. turret first blood is still a thing, no fortification on bot lane is still a thing. the strongest marksmen are still scaling too fast. if you intentionally make that fucking lane the only one that counts, then people dont want to play a role that has almost no influence on the game. top is the least picked role since they added fucking turret first blood 2 years ago.
: Did I say any of the following in my post: - Skill - Mechanical - Complexity No. I said he's 1-dimensional. The only thing you said is to "Give him Odyssey augments". Like...that's not even suggestion. That's literally akin to me saying "Make Sona do 19284291 damage with her Q". There's no substance to any of what you said in that post. You can be mechanically simple without being 1-dimensional. Zoe and Poppy don't have a ton of crazy parts, but the game play they have opens up a variety of possibilities that adds depth to their interactions in-game. Garen doesn't. He needs fundamental changes, and if you don't want to put up with that, then you need to just be content with what he is.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGqlr0YL,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-13T08:23:00.439+0000) > > No. I said he's 1-dimensional. The only thing you said is to "Give him Odyssey augments". Like...that's not even suggestion. That's literally akin to me saying "Make Sona do 19284291 damage with her Q". a) while some of them like ziggs ult spam were op, not all of those augments were completely broken. there were some that just added some interesting effects to some of the champions abilities. like malphite could chose between adding a debuff to his q, that makes his auto attacks deal more damage to enemies hit by it or he could chose to have his q deal aoe damage in a cone behind the enemy hit. conceptually none of those two examples are broken, and balancing them would just be a matter of tuning numbers. the same was true for a bunch of the other oddyssee passives. if you would have tuned down their raw numbers, some of them would have been quite reasonable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ b) the entire purpose of giving garen something like that (**instead of the villainy passive**), would be to allow him to make slight modifications to his abilities that allowed him to focus on different strategic roles from game to game. just have part of his win condition be to chose the right passive for the appriopriate game. lets just say instead of 3 out of 15, he gets 5 passives to chose from and can pick 1 of them for a game. this would already increase his strategic mastery by allowing him to fill different roles on a team from game to game, while still remaining in the juggernaut archetype. his base kit would still be simple, but he wouldnt be 1 dimensional in the sense that he can chose to focus on different objectives from game to game > for example the critical strike scaling could be removed from his q and his spin. but he could have one upgrade that readds the crits to his abilities and gives him critical strike chance for building cooldown reduction (up to 25% crit at 40% cdr). for a bruiser carry playstile with item builds like {{item:3031}} {{item:3071}} {{item:1001}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3026}} (+10% cdr from sorcery) really strong in short midgame duels with a bit less survivability but more frontloaded damage, and being able to go toe to toe with champions like {{champion:114}} {{champion:157}} etc. > or he could have another passive that shreds the armor and magic resistance of all enemies that are cced by him by 20%. this would allow him to build for team utility, for example with glacial augment and items like {{item:3800}} {{item:3143}} etc. and would be useful into teams with champions like {{champion:9}} or {{champion:85}} as follow up to their ult engage to slow down enemies and weaken them for his teammates. > or there could be another passive that massively increases his objective damage (like the current villainy damage just to epic monsters and turrets), and grants him additional movement speed from all sources, for a splitpush/objective focused role, while increasing his synergy with abilities like ghost or phase rush > another passive could just straight up remove the w resistance cap and give him {{item:3005}} passive to become a massive latgeame and health scaling frontline threat (that he should technically be right now as a juggernaut but really isnt), who becomes more threatening the longer he stays in the fight. with massive health stacking builds like {{item:3071}} {{item:1001}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3083}} {{item:3022}} and focused around rune builds like resolve with grasp and overgrowth/inspiration for maximum health
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGqlr0YL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-11T01:17:42.627+0000) > > by the way, if riot ever gives garen another rework and doesnt want to make him more mechanically complicated, i hope they just add a shitload of strategic options for him. > > give him like 5 or 6 different playstiles while staying within the juggernaut category and have his mastery curve be entirely strategic, and have part of his win condition be to chose the correct playstile for the appropriate game. And how do you think you can make that happen when he's so fucking 1-dimensional? 1-dimensional champs don't do "strategic elements".
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGqlr0YL,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-13T06:44:35.770+0000) > > And how do you think you can make that happen when he's so fucking 1-dimensional? > > 1-dimensional champs don't do "strategic elements". i literally explained it. kayn isnt much more mechanical either. but his passive allows him to either play as a skirmisher or as an assassin depending on the game. youre so fixated on skill = mechanical complexity, that youre forgetting that a champion can be mechanical simple, but still have a high mastery curve, when he can chose between a ton of strategic directions.
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Chawoora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yq9mG3rO,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-10-13T03:49:25.520+0000) > > I grabbed a clip of the fight (gotta luv that ingame replay system): https://streamable.com/wf3w7 > > The short story is that the Garen had 3-4 level lead over the others in the fight, Tryndamere was getting stomped all game by Garen and starts the fight giving up half his hp, Ezreal puts out very little DPS, and Jarven flag-n-drags in then mostly just runs around doing nothing (I think I counted 3 auto attacks in the entire duration of the fight). In the end, the full hp Ezreal kills the Garen. Seems like the OP was just whining, then.
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yq9mG3rO,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-10-13T04:41:34.838+0000) > > Seems like the OP was just whining, then. lol, he was full of shit. first of all, they didnt even start that fight coordinated, but arrived at different times, while garen was already fighting tryn, and tryn was down to 2/3 hp when they all got involved. ignite just finished the tryn off, after he tried to escape with his own ult running. second, they didnt even lose that considering that they got almost a full 1000 shutdown gold onto the ezreal.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hethalean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yq9mG3rO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-12T20:42:51.691+0000) > > You forgot to add in just how many levels he was up on you. lvl 16 v 12/13/12.. then a bunch of auto attackers vs Tabis as well as other tank items. > > Also which time. it looks like you tried to 2v1 or 3v1 him quite a few times. the last of which Ezreal sitll killed him. "We lost, but not all of us died, and he died!" just fyi... the levels at the end of the game reflect the levels.. AT THE END OF THE GAME chances are this fight wasn't the final fight of the game that lost them the nexus it did seem to happen 2 min before the end of the game so changes are the levels were close to that he had a 3k gold lead ( so one item) on each of you whan that fight happens that being said... your combined gold of 3 champions was over double what he had. when {{champion:86}} is fed he really does become damn near impossible to take down becuase he inatly is pretty much immune to CC unless u have multiple ccing abilties one of which your 3 champs had i didnt see the fight but i can guess based on you saying what happened was that it happened at the 24 min mark 2 min before the game ended. the only champs that can kill garen are those that can kite him with multiple slows on next to no cooldown like {{champion:22}} or {{champion:69}} with {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} or those who can match his tankiness and damage which few can. once champ with any less than 3 CC abilities is not going to stop him from reaching you. unless u can get over some walls
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yq9mG3rO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-12T20:54:24.358+0000) > > just fyi... the levels at the end of the game reflect the levels.. AT THE END OF THE GAME > > chances are this fight wasn't the final fight of the game that lost them the nexus > > it did seem to happen 2 min before the end of the game so changes are the levels were close to that > > he had a 3k gold lead ( so one item) on each of you whan that fight happens > > that being said... your combined gold of 3 champions was over double what he had. > > when {{champion:86}} is fed he really does become damn near impossible to take down > > becuase he inatly is pretty much immune to CC unless u have multiple ccing abilties one of which your 3 champs had > > i didnt see the fight but i can guess based on you saying what happened was that it happened at the 24 min mark 2 min before the game ended. > > the only champs that can kill garen are those that can kite him with multiple slows on next to no cooldown like {{champion:22}} or {{champion:69}} with {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} > > or those who can match his tankiness and damage which few can. > > once champ with any less than 3 CC abilities is not going to stop him from reaching you. unless u can get over some walls the garen has 205 cs in a 26 minute game. op had 90. the game couldnt have lasted longer after that fight. if youre not absolutely terrible like op and his team, youre going to take down garen with 3 people, especially when one of them is a highly mobile adc. he literally just outfarmed them and had a 4 level advantage. thats it. you could have done that on any top lane carry. if that was the tryndamere instead of a garen the game would have been over just off that farm advantage alone. i wonder how the fucking ezreal even died in that scenario. he must have e'd into the garens face with the villain mark on him. i mean think about it. jarvan ults and garen is locked down. how does the ezreal even get into range to be killed? all he has to do is stand outside the arena and auto attack and throw q's.
: So we just fought this garen
if that really happened, you got outplayed as shit my boi. i want to see the replay pls.
: Actually, executes are the problem. The new Urgot top lane meta is cancer because of his execute. Garen is oppressive because of his execute, and is only somewhat viable in high elo for that. Eve is known for her charm, e, q, execute. Execute is like a free hand giving kills. It’s easier, and disgusting how u only need to get someone to half health to instantly kill them, while they have an entire freakin health pool to play with
> [{quoted}](name=Tomat0H3ad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gExafQ6t,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-10-12T10:53:36.431+0000) > > Actually, executes are the problem. The new Urgot top lane meta is cancer because of his execute. Garen is oppressive because of his execute, and is only somewhat viable in high elo for that. Eve is known for her charm, e, q, execute. Execute is like a free hand giving kills. It’s easier, and disgusting how u only need to get someone to half health to instantly kill them, while they have an entire freakin health pool to play with except that these executes have never been changed, and it was other parts of their kits ad been rightfully buffed as these champs were noticably too weak at the time of thehir buffs. in eves case 90% of her strength is that she can bypass vision and 2 shot squishies with dark harvest auto attacks and then r. but whatevever fits your narrative i guess.
: I cannot stand the massive sohulder pauldrons and tiny head, like wtf. He looks like beetlejuice after the head shrinker is done with him.
> [{quoted}](name=Percentages,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=WWqfNhHz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-11T22:58:32.769+0000) > > I cannot stand the massive sohulder pauldrons and tiny head, like wtf. He looks like beetlejuice after the head shrinker is done with him. one of the parts that still anoys me since his VU in season 3. that and after all these years, they still havent given him his punch back. at least we got this gem out of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lcHYqV1OcQ
: Same site says 53% at one month. Using past 7 days is often more inaccurate because of small sample size - not to mention Garen hasn’t received any big changes in the past month. So much for using stats to fit your narrative.
> [{quoted}](name=charge attack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nKvwzhfY,comment-id=0012000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-11T19:37:49.019+0000) > > Same site says 53% at one month. Using past 7 days is often more inaccurate because of small sample size - not to mention Garen hasn’t received any big changes in the past month. > > So much for using stats to fit your narrative. A) i dont know what the fuck youre doing, because his winrate is shown as 51.06% over the last month for: platinum, summoners rift, ranked. it drops off to 47% in diamond in both cases (1 month and 7 days worth of games) B) an entire month includes the data over the course of multiple patch cycles and is highly inaccurate, since the game largely changes from patch cycle to patch cycle. you have about 3 patches over the course of a month. 7 days includes enough games within the current patch cycle and enough data to draw conclusions of.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYn7jE6y,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-11T10:28:40.776+0000) > > who was his opponent? > > the statistics can be scewed. > > if you spent 90% of the game time in the jungle, and split pushed for the remaining time, while that ornn was laning against a mundo and constantly trading with him for 12 minutes, then the damage values can look exaggerated. > > that being said, orn does tend to deal a lot of damage at times. It was an int sion if I remember correctly. I didn't bother going top because he was suiciding into Ornn so most of my 11 kills weren't on Sion, I think Graves and Ornn were farming him. And I was mid by the way, so I did roam bot a lot.
> [{quoted}](name=Need Gold 4 Tent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYn7jE6y,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-11T12:55:29.590+0000) > > It was an int sion if I remember correctly. I didn't bother going top because he was suiciding into Ornn so most of my 11 kills weren't on Sion, I think Graves and Ornn were farming him. And I was mid by the way, so I did roam bot a lot. well, that would explain it, no?
: 53% in Plat and 51.8% in Diamond. Nice try though.
> [{quoted}](name=charge attack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nKvwzhfY,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-10-11T11:57:59.053+0000) > > 53% in Plat and 51.8% in Diamond. > > Nice try though. were looking at different statistics then. because the same fucking site shows 50.89% winrate for garen at: platinum, the last 7 days, summoners rift. so much for using statistics to fit your narrative.
Kàkashi (NA)
: name one
> [{quoted}](name=Kàkashi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gywkYcFc,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-11T06:15:27.169+0000) > > name one objective control? no matter how good your jungler is, he should never be able to outsmite {{champion:31}} since a lvl 6 feast deals more damage than smite at lvl 18. so having 2 smites on a team can actually secure you objectives, or make them harder to constest by cho alone. i think nunus consume does similar damage. imo if someone wants a second smite, he should just run inspiration with unsealed spellbook. it allows to get an extra smite in addition to your regular summoners. only thing that pisses me off personally is that you cant buy jungle items while switched to smite. you have to enter the game with one of your summoners being smite by default to access jungle items. otherwise id probably get {{item:1401}} in top lane now and then for the raw hp bonus.
: "Tank"
who was his opponent? the statistics can be scewed. if you spent 90% of the game time in the jungle, and split pushed for the remaining time, while that ornn was laning against a mundo and constantly trading with him for 12 minutes, then the damage values can look exaggerated. that being said, orn does tend to deal a lot of damage at times.
: So are stats only useful when they support your narrative?
try posting that image for a plat+ mmr range. garen isnt going to have 53% winrate anymore if you drop bronze, silver and gold from the statistics.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGqlr0YL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-11T01:07:17.505+0000) > > - absolutely no team utility like trundle pillar or aatrox cc, and i guess as long as riot is grouping him in there, chogath I completely disagree with this point. Garen brings a hell of lot to team fights. Garen is the most tanky of all the juggernauts, except for Mundo and due to his high threat nature, you cannot ignore him. His primary contribution to team fights is soaking up the enemy team's cooldowns and up front damage, which he can shrug off thanks to his W and his passive. On top of that, he has a silence which guarantees that whoever gets hit with it isn't getting way from him or his team. He also brings a massive amount of AOE damage with his E. It isn't a strange thing to see in many games he has the most damage done by far, even when compared with moderately fed marksmen. In some aspects, he is more dangerous than Darius.
> [{quoted}](name=ShyvanaWillCarry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGqlr0YL,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-11T01:49:29.281+0000) > > I completely disagree with this point. Garen brings a hell of lot to team fights. Garen is the most tanky of all the juggernauts, except for Mundo and due to his high threat nature, you cannot ignore him. His primary contribution to team fights is soaking up the enemy team's cooldowns and up front damage, which he can shrug off thanks to his W and his passive. On top of that, he has a silence which guarantees that whoever gets hit with it isn't getting way from him or his team. He also brings a massive amount of AOE damage with his E. It isn't a strange thing to see in many games he has the most damage done by far, even when compared with moderately fed marksmen. In some aspects, he is more dangerous than Darius. his spin doesnt really do a whole lot of damage in comparsion to other jugger abilities. (darius escalating damage, urgots leg procs) his silence is good enough to keep people in range, but not comparable to abilities like aatrox w and q knockups. he has a lot of upfront defense, but largely lacks in combat sustain to survive longer than the 6 seconds of his w duration. his team utility is overall still comparably low even compared to other jugger abilities like darius hook, yoricks w, or urgots flip stun. the main thing that he brings to a team is the armor shred on his spin. thats pretty much it.
: Serious Inquiry About Garen (Not A Rant)
by the way, if riot ever gives garen another rework and doesnt want to make him more mechanically complicated, i hope they just add a shitload of strategic options for him. give him like 5 or 6 different playstiles while staying within the juggernaut category and have his mastery curve be entirely strategic, and have part of his win condition be to chose the correct playstile for the appropriate game. similar to how {{champion:141}} choses to be either an assassin or skirmisher depending on what he needs for the game. like literally give garen something like 15 oddyssee passives and have him chose 3 per game, to modify his abilities and playstile in some way. from straight up 1v1 carry juggernaut, to utility synergy with items like {{item:3800}} , to split pusher, to jungler and other ways that keep him as a juggernaut, just in different team roles from game to game.
: Serious Inquiry About Garen (Not A Rant)
1.) skill floor isnt the same as skill cap garen doesnt have a high skill cap either, but still higher than most people give him credit for. there is especially a lot of strategic mastery to his item build choices. 2.) he pays for it in other areas. - like no in combat sustain - his kit entirely limited to melee range, - low mobility (even as far as juggers go, a 30% ms buff isnt very fast; ex. udyr, shyvana) - no hypercarry potential like darius - no special scaling or split pushing power like nasus and yorick - absolutely no team utility like trundle pillar or aatrox cc, and i guess as long as riot is grouping him in there, chogath its really mostly the first 3 points in combination that justify so much upfront power in his base kit and stats. even most juggers have one or two of those drawbacks (like darius is short ranged, and low mobility while having a % missing health heal on his q that helps him survive drawn out fights), while garen has them all.
: do you want garen to be a tank? People have said he's a tank before ya know. Cho should always be an ap offtank, which is pretty much an ap juggernaut in current classes. I used to play cho bunch and i never went full tank, never went full ap either tho. that was season 5 or 6 tho. I honestly hate the fact that they gave him hp scaling on his ult. it makes buiding ap less attractive which makes cho less fun. Weren't juggs supposed to feel like dungeon bosses? well if cho ain't the definition of a dungeon boss, idk who else is.
> [{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=000100020000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-10-10T18:37:22.982+0000) > > do you want garen to be a tank? no? but cho always had the utlility and cc of a tank and thats why he was considered a tank. then they gave him the mini rework that added scaling % health damage to his e and turned him into a tank with juggernaut damage and scaling. it would be the equivalent of adding aoe cc to garens kit. does that that sound like fair design? as long as cho exists there isnt really a reason to ever pick garen for example, since he has the same melee power, while he has the aoe cc of a tank. why would i pick one champion over another who has the same strengths and additional strengths of another class on top of it?
: This is a good start. Next, they should target Conq. Then, Bone Plating.
> [{quoted}](name=Lunar Strain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xIisA13R,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-10T03:18:56.346+0000) > > This is a good start. Next, they should target Conq. Then, Bone Plating. bone plating isnt op. it might even be too weak. its just literally the only rune in that row that reduces champion damage. from my own experiences with it, demolish is only useful to take down outer turrets before you have items to speed up the process. as soon as youre grouping with your team to siege, the inner turrets and everything past it tend to fall faster than the charge up time of the rune, when you get into position to take a turret. this makes it incredibly niche for split pushers who want to solo push side lanes. font of life is a support rune that is useless for 95% of the champion pool. so whats left if you go into resolve? only boneplating for the majority of the champions that opt into that tree.
NemeBro (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=000100020000000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-10T01:57:44.110+0000) > > that made him too feast or famine. > > honestly just removing the % damage from his e would make him a balanced tank, if the rest of his kit is adjusted around it. > > otherwise hed have to lose the kockup on his q and have his w reshaped, and that would change his identity. His identity isn't based around his stomp or his silence. It is based around eating other champions whole and getting fucking huge and tanky off of it. He can't be a good pure tank with an ult like that without being overbearing. If he has the reliable CC and peel of a real tank then the fact that he can take off half the health of the assassin coming to kill your carry is going to always be overbearing. Cho is the late game AP Juggernaut we deserve.
> [{quoted}](name=NemeBro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=0001000200000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-10T02:00:56.936+0000) > > His identity isn't based around his stomp or his silence. It is based around eating other champions whole and getting fucking huge and tanky off of it. > > He can't be a good pure tank with an ult like that without being overbearing. If he has the reliable CC and peel of a real tank then the fact that he can take off half the health of the assassin coming to kill your carry is going to always be overbearing. > > Cho is the late game AP Juggernaut we deserve. even with his ult, cho always used to be a tank. riot stated, that sometimes champion ultimates can break the rules of their class. like how {{champion:2}} ult makes him pretty much unkitable for 8 seconds despite being a juggernaut, or how {{champion:102}} counts as a juggernaut with a gapcloser on her ult. but it was the addition of the scaling % damage on his e that turned cho into a tank juggernaut. just having this much damage on a short cooldown base ability, in addition to the aoe cc on the rest of his kit.
: > [{quoted}](name=Slythrin Umbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-10-09T21:47:56.307+0000) > > You're wrong, She's not a mobile juggernaut. > > She's a Mobile Juggernaut with CC. what juggernaut doesn't have cc.
> [{quoted}](name=WayOfTheOutlaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-10-10T02:00:16.842+0000) > > what juggernaut doesn't have cc. {{champion:82}}
: I just want him to lose stacks again on death.
> [{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=00010002000000000001,timestamp=2018-10-10T01:56:07.981+0000) > > I just want him to lose stacks again on death. that made him too feast or famine. honestly just removing the % damage from his e would make him a balanced tank, if the rest of his kit is adjusted around it. otherwise hed have to lose the kockup on his q and have his w reshaped, and that would change his identity. changing iconic abilities like that never goes over well.
NemeBro (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2018-10-10T01:50:39.731+0000) > > so is a tank juggernaut for that matter > > but {{champion:31}} is a different beast. i just hate how they added the % damage to his e instead of making his cc more reliable and making him a better tank. No one who plays Cho plays him to be a shitty CC tank. Cho should be a juggernaut.
> [{quoted}](name=NemeBro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2018-10-10T01:54:03.536+0000) > > No one who plays Cho plays him to be a shitty CC tank. > > Cho should be a juggernaut. then they should rework his q. really having the utility/peel of a tank with juggernaut base damage easily invalidates both classes. its not a fair concept.
: A "mobile Fighter" is called a Diver. A "mobile Juggernaut" is called a over-tuned Diver.
> [{quoted}](name=Z3Sleeper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2018-10-10T01:45:27.311+0000) > > A "mobile Fighter" is called a Diver. > > A "mobile Juggernaut" is called a over-tuned Diver. so is a tank juggernaut for that matter but {{champion:31}} is a different beast. i just hate how they added the % damage to his e instead of making his cc more reliable and making him a better tank.
: > [{quoted}](name=ankoanko19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-10T01:03:17.022+0000) > > Oh yeah her shield makes her so squishy. Does nothing against true or mixed damage and offers no bonus resistances in her kit. Riven's (also free) shield is fucking better.
> [{quoted}](name=PopcornBunni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-10T01:04:12.185+0000) > > Does nothing against true or mixed damage and offers no bonus resistances in her kit. Riven's (also free) shield is fucking better. i dont know a single champion that deals 100% true damage, so her shield is always going to absorb some form of damage from her opponent. so yea, its not going to absorb a darius execute, but its still going to absorb a shitload of physical damage and prevents her from getting into execute range in the first place. and it still absorbs one of the components of mixed damage. so if someone deals 1000 mixed damage with a 50/50 split, camilles shield is still going to absorb 500 of that damage. how exactly is that nothing? a 20% max health shield is still a juggernaut ability and doesnt belong into a skirmisher or even diver kit. if it scaled with bonus ad to make her build just a bit squishier and had some other trigger mechanism to it than just "auto attack the enemy", that could be outplayed, it would be fine, but i think the way her scalings are set up to basically stack jugger items is kindof why that champion is so dumb and scales into a mobile juggernaut. divers or skirmishers shouldnt just be mobile juggernauts. otherwise there is no point to actual juggernauts existing. the advantage divers have is target access and or team engage. juggernauts should just be upfront more threatening in a head on fight in return, due to higher base damage and defense.
saltran (EUW)
: >she has one of the longest engage ranges in the game for a fighter, and for some reason shes geared to build as tanky as juggers and rely on similar high base damage. why is this a thing? >if shes gonna be as mobile as a diver or skirmisher, give her actual skirmisher scalings and situational defense. might make the champion reasonable for a change. The thing is that your narrative doesn't match the reallity of a Camille that has been moved out of top to jng because she loses majority of the top matchups since she gives up too much 1vs1 power for her engage. They had 2 options: nerf her engage and maker her a full toplaner, or nerf her 1vs1 and make her a jungle. They did the lattter. And right now she's balanced imo, not being a dominant pick on pro play and neither being a soloQ dominant champ, sure sometimes she seems unfair, I too play immobile champs and she can be a pain in the ass but I dont think that any data shows that she's op.
> [{quoted}](name=saltran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-09T20:36:50.570+0000) > > The thing is that your narrative doesn't match the reallity of a Camille that has been moved out of top to jng because she loses majority of the top matchups since she gives up too much 1vs1 power for her engage. > > They had 2 options: nerf her engage and maker her a full toplaner, or nerf her 1vs1 and make her a jungle. > > They did the lattter. > > And right now she's balanced imo, not being a dominant pick on pro play and neither being a soloQ dominant champ, sure sometimes she seems unfair, I too play immobile champs and she can be a pain in the ass but I dont think that any data shows that she's op. while she might not technically be overtuned, i still think some design elements in her kit are questionable and dont fit her class.
: No, I'm saying that her mobility becomes a problem when it is not utilized properly. Her kit is designed to prevent her from being burst immediately, .. which is important because as another person pointed out, she is a diver, but it isn't enough to make her survive indefinitely. So if she isn't able to out trade her opponent, or opponents, ... or escape, which she is not able to do easily, .. she dies. .. as she is supposed to.
> [{quoted}](name=Elite4Runner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-09T20:37:34.732+0000) > > No, I'm saying that her mobility becomes a problem when it is not utilized properly. > > Her kit is designed to prevent her from being burst immediately, .. which is important because as another person pointed out, she is a diver, but it isn't enough to make her survive indefinitely. > > So if she isn't able to out trade her opponent, or opponents, she dies. .. as she is supposed to. a change to a refreshing shield upon landing her abilities, and making it scale with bonus ad wouldnt change that. it would just change how you play around the champion, and the impact of hitting/missing her abilities to get enough defense for the fight to survive it. it would allow the champion to be strong and still fair.
: Sure it is. Utilizing her mobility is prone to put her in a bad situation. There is such a thing as being too mobile. Being able to get too far ahead of your team means it can be difficult for your team to follow her. If she engages on an unfavorable situation, she needs to have the utility in her kit to survive the fight or she dies.
> [{quoted}](name=Elite4Runner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-09T20:23:56.493+0000) > > If she engages on an unfavorable situation if she engages into an unfavourable situation, she made a mistake and needs to die or burn flash i dont even... what? is this how you rationalize that champion? youre literally saying she should have the tools to beat her opponent despite misusing her kit. she shouldnt survive that situation just like lee sin shouldnt survive a 1v5 q into the enemy team, much less turn that into a win just by virtue of her base stats being overtuned. thats just dumb and broken.
Done25 (NA)
: A "mobile Juggernaut" has a name. It's called a Diver. Irelia, Warwick, Xin Xaoi, Nocturne, Vi, etc.
> [{quoted}](name=Done25,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-09T20:11:45.116+0000) > > A "mobile Juggernaut" has a name. It's called a Diver. Irelia, Warwick, Xin Xaoi, Nocturne, Vi, etc. divers are still supposed to be a bit squishier and less powerful in head on fights than juggers. they usually have team engage (irelia, xin, wukong) and/or high pick potential in return (warwick, noc, vi). for a lot of them this is true, but some of them are a bit tankier than they should be while dealing similar levels of damage as a jugger. what is ever the point of a juggernaut when you can just pick a mobile version of it with team engage? the only way divers should win against juggers is by outplaying them. but camille doesnt need to do that in a lot of cases. she just wins head on fights off her base damage/defenses and her shield. changing her passive and its scaling to incentivise higher risk/reward in item builds and play could fix the champions overloaded design imo.
: Her only escape ability is her engage ability. The unique nature of her Q makes it fairly common for her to make plays into limited vision because she is springing through / over terrain that blocks vision. If she engages into an unfavorable situation, she has no way of escaping.
> [{quoted}](name=Elite4Runner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6h7M6EuA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-09T19:51:17.324+0000) > > Her only escape ability is her engage ability. > > The unique nature of her Q makes it fairly common for her to make plays into limited vision because she is springing through / over terrain that blocks vision. > > If she engages into an unfavorable situation, she has no way of escaping. that doesnt make her less mobile and isnt an argument for her to have that high base damage and defenses. plus, her rank 5 e is on a 6 to 8 second cooldown after cdr.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rWvcm15R,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-10-09T16:48:07.433+0000) > > but treating yorick ghouls as champions for the heal is a bit silly. That's not what's happening at all in this case the Heal only has reduced effect on Lane minions. All other units provide the full heal > i like morde too, but lets be fair on this one. I have been I gave examples of counterplay despite what OP would have you believe > i also like yasuo as a champion, but still think its dumb that he gets automatically placed just out of turret range when he ults an enemy under his turret. if hes gonna want to take the risk and go for a dive, actually make him take the risk. I agree with that particular statement about Yasou. But I have to ask from the pictures above how is Yorick putting himself at risk in this scenario > some mechanics shouldnt exist, or not have such jank interactions. Like Bards slow/ stun bypassing spell shields for example
> [{quoted}](name=Mordepool,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rWvcm15R,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-10-09T17:21:10.913+0000) > > That's not what's happening at all in this case the Heal only has reduced effect on Lane minions. All other units provide the full heal > > I have been I gave examples of counterplay despite what OP would have you believe > > I agree with that particular statement about Yasou. But I have to ask from the pictures above how is Yorick putting himself at risk in this scenario > > Like Bards slow/ stun bypassing spell shields for example srry, didnt read the entire discussion yet. i guess its fair then. and yes, bards stun bypassing spell shields also doesnt make sense.
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Critmaster Garen

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