Penns (EUW)
: Garen already has damage reduction, him point and click proccing Aftershock with such a low cooldown silence (that scales up to 3.5s duration and can be maxed first) sounds potentially way too good imo (see {{champion:89}} ) I mean you could nerf him around having that, but.. yeah.
> [{quoted}](name=Penns,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mZwinHLW,comment-id=000000000001000100000001,timestamp=2017-12-13T19:20:27.453+0000) > > Garen already has damage reduction, him point and click proccing Aftershock with such a low cooldown silence (that scales up to 3.5s duration and can be maxed first) sounds potentially way too good imo (see {{champion:89}} ) > I mean you could nerf him around having that, but.. yeah. aftershocks use in that case would be restriced by its own cooldown, and not garens silence cooldown. most of the fighter pool can trigger the keystone off cooldown. i dont see the issue. why is {{champion:19}} being able to proc aftershock with a 55% damage reduction in his kit not an issue then?
: Because it's only meant to be for hard CC. Silence isn't an immobilization.
> [{quoted}](name=RabblerouserGT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mZwinHLW,comment-id=000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-13T18:57:42.316+0000) > > Because it's only meant to be for hard CC. Silence isn't an immobilization. this isnt really an argument. more of an arbitrary restriction.
: Penn commented below: > Pretty sure it procs on blastcone thing (cotc did). Its not a good reason to really take it, but its usable. ^ It does proc it. Like, it's possible we could say "this is way too niche a case" and add in the swapping protection for this one but for our first rule set around swapping we wanted to have a pretty hard line in the sand of "there is no way you could use it ever in any situation", with the examples again being Cass with Boots or ARAM with Riverwalking. I can bring this example up with the team to make a call on if "can be used with blast cone" is basically experientially equivalent to "can't be used" (because it's not possible to use it in the base kit or through the item system, etc.), but will re-iterate the reason it's not in there right now is that we wanted the rules around the protection swapping to be super clear. EDIT: Okay, spoke with relevant folks & we're going to add the swapping protection for Aftershock in all modes. :) Thanks for bringing this up! EDIT EDIT: Going to actually do this work for ANY champion who can't meet the requirement in this case, not just Garen. :D It's also possible that we further adjust these swaps in the future, wanna put that out there as well.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mZwinHLW,comment-id=0000000000010001,timestamp=2017-12-13T18:25:24.400+0000) > > Penn commented below: > > ^ It does proc it. > > Like, it's possible we could say "this is way too niche a case" and add in the swapping protection for this one but for our first rule set around swapping we wanted to have a pretty hard line in the sand of "there is no way you could use it ever in any situation", with the examples again being Cass with Boots or ARAM with Riverwalking. > > I can bring this example up with the team to make a call on if "can be used with blast cone" is basically experientially equivalent to "can't be used", but will re-iterate the reason it's not in there right now is that we wanted the rules around the protection swapping to be super clear. ok, but how about just adding silence to the list of viable cc to trigger the keystone... youre saying youre leaving the option for him to pick it because there are some extreme nieche conditions in which he can trigger it. then you obviously dont have issues with allowing him to use the keystone. just let him use it reliably like most of the rest of the fighter pool. darius can trigger it with his pull, udyr with his stun, jarvan with his knockup... so why not give garen the option aswell? let him have more than one viable keystone in resolve.
: Yeah, I mean this is really the answer. We try to only swap runes as a very last resort - when a rune LITERALLY can't be used (e.g Magical Boots with Cass or Riverwalking on ARAM). We don't want to stifle player choice by swapping runes when they're just "bad" (emphasis on the quote unquote there) on a champion. Some really cool and surprising strategies have come from experimentation that goes against "accepted" strategies in specific cases (MF support off of the top of my head for example) and we would never wanna block that. EDIT: I called this out in a comment down below but for Aftershock specifically we're going to be adding in the extra protection for champs that can't use it based on their kit. :)
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mZwinHLW,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-13T17:49:50.358+0000) > > Yeah, I mean this is really the answer. We try to only swap runes as a very last resort - when a rune LITERALLY can't be used (e.g Magical Boots with Cass or Riverwalking on ARAM). > > We don't want to stifle player choice by swapping runes when they're just "bad" (emphasis on the quote unquote there) on a champion. Some really cool and surprising strategies have come from experimentation that goes against "accepted" strategies in specific cases (MF support off of the top of my head for example) and we would never wanna block that. i mean. how about changing aftershock to be triggered by silences? if we want to split hairs, we could argue that its an immobilizing effect for champions with movement abilities. but more importantly i checked, and every other champion with a silence in the game already has the ability to trigger aftershock with one of their basic abilities. or theyre mages like malzahar, who could still trigger it but there would no reason to ever use it on him. why not throw garen players a bone and give them a second viable keystone in resolve? adding silence to the list of viable cc for the keystone would really only affect that one champion. id say there are games where i would rather take aftershock than grasp, if i could.
: I’ve already pointed this out, that is absurd. Crit ADCs go from troll pick to pick/ban because IE reduced price by 200, zeal reduced by 100 (NOT completed zeal items though). Combined with lethality nerfs. What the fuck do you think will happen if you raise all Zeal item costs by 400? Also you people keep talking like Crit ADCs are even doing so hot now. Keep seeing people blame Crit itemization for “snowballing” but lethality users and Ezreal have by FAR the highest pick and win rates. It honestly feels like the people posting here haven’t even played the game since patch 7.18
> [{quoted}](name=Disembark,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T22:29:27.950+0000) > > I’ve already pointed this out, that is absurd. > > Crit ADCs go from troll pick to pick/ban because IE reduced price by 200, zeal reduced by 100 (NOT completed zeal items though). > > Combined with lethality nerfs. > > What the fuck do you think will happen if you raise all Zeal item costs by 400? > > Also you people keep talking like Crit ADCs are even doing so hot now. Keep seeing people blame Crit itemization for “snowballing” but lethality users and Ezreal have by FAR the highest pick and win rates. It honestly feels like the people posting here haven’t even played the game since patch 7.18 yeah, lets just ignore WHY they were considered "troll picks" because when lethality items were released, adc abused the shit out of them to cheese themselves burst in lane and early/midgame power spikes that they never were supposed to have. they switched from crit to lethality not because crit was bad. but lethality was broken on adc. going from there they constantly kept flipping between lethality and crit builds depending on the state of lethality. instead of fixing the issue and slapping melee only tags on these items or putting range penalties on them, riot buffed the everloving shit out of crit items to the point where theyre cheaper than lethality builds, despite scaling harder. bullshit dude. they "fixed" one broken adc build with another broken adc build thats what happened. your "troll builds" were the same builds that were effective on marksmen for 6 years. what really needs to happen is a price nerf to crit items, and then making lethality less accessable for marksmen.
: Mages have absolutely no answer for tanks
their answer to tanks (and fighters) is ranged cc. if everything can kill tanks, then there are no tanks. who are the tanks supposed to be able to tank? raptors?
: You can't just randomly pull out items from under champions who desperately depend on them for some semblance of play-ability. It's not that it "feels kinda bad" , late-game scaling champions are doing terribly in Plat+ elo because of how quick games are ending. Late game champions come online so much later than Early and Mid game champs, obviously, and by the 15 minute mark, if your team hasn't already forfeited, you may have a chance. Then, if your enemy team is comprised mostly of simians, you may be able to beat them back by some miracle and make it to the 25 minute mark, where you start to have a chance. Games are decided so early now that by 20 minutes it is decided. Only in Gold and below do you really have a case that late game scaling champs can still be viable. It's still preseason so I have hope. However, there is so much damage being thrown about that snowballing is a major concern and making items more expensive does little to curb laners and a lot to destroy jungle diversity.
> [{quoted}](name=Battalion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H5y1EyI7,comment-id=000b00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T12:45:42.538+0000) > > You can't just randomly its not randomly. its just a cost increase that has been long overdue to get these items in line with the power they grant. the entire reason games end quickly is because of bot lane snowball and nothing else. which turret goes down first usually? which champion starts popping off before other lanes have completed 2 items? if you guessed the adc on bot lane, then your guess is correct. these games wont end as quickly anymore when crit and lethality items get a cost increase, because the champions who are building the same items as you wont run away with the game anymore. or at least snowball a lot slower. the same champions who currently snowball games out of control take longer to scale, game times will increase, and your problem is solves itself.
: I'll say the same to you. >you just have to deal with it. Seems a simple way to avoid the issue. There's no way to get to late game if you're getting steam rolled by tanks sitting pretty on a full item or two above you as you're finishing your first full item at 3300 gold after already buying your jungle item. Jungle items are meant for the jungle and as such their combat effectiveness is not as high as lane items. They are good and cheap for what they do, but they are definitely not enough to warrant raising an item by a half jungle clear as you're suggesting in your posts. There's a lot of time wasted and the moment the game hits mid game there's no guarantee you can even clear more than one camp without having to rocket over to another lane who is spam pinging you for assistance.
> [{quoted}](name=Battalion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H5y1EyI7,comment-id=000b000200000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T12:15:26.315+0000) > > I'll say the same to you. > > Seems a simple way to avoid the issue. There's no way to get to late game if you're getting steam rolled by tanks sitting pretty on a full item or two above you as you're finishing your first full item at 3300 gold after already buying your jungle item. Jungle items are meant for the jungle and as such their combat effectiveness is not as high as lane items. They are good and cheap for what they do, but they are definitely not enough to warrant raising an item by a half jungle clear as you're suggesting in your posts. There's a lot of time wasted and the moment the game hits mid game there's no guarantee you can even clear more than one camp without having to rocket over to another lane who is spam pinging you for assistance. if you want to play a lategame scaling champion with lategame itemization, then you have to deal with the fact that it takes you longer to scale. lmao you cant just expect to power spike at the same time or sooner than the champions youre going to outscale, just because it feels kinda bad. you just have to get used to the fact that youre not going to be relevant until 20 to 25 minutes.
: What about marksmen inside the jungle? Such as Kindred and Graves? How in the hell am I supposed to afford items that are difficult to farm in a lane with constant gold supply as a jungler who has to constantly lose gold per minute just doing my job? Why should I be punished?
> [{quoted}](name=Battalion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H5y1EyI7,comment-id=000b0002,timestamp=2017-12-12T10:15:57.290+0000) > > What about marksmen inside the jungle? Such as Kindred and Graves? How in the hell am I supposed to afford items that are difficult to farm in a lane with constant gold supply as a jungler who has to constantly lose gold per minute just doing my job? Why should I be punished? there are cheap jungle items. and from there you just have to deal with it. kindred and graves are lategame scaling ad carries just like any regular marksmen. so your items should be more expensive.
: Funny enough lethality ADCs are back in meta because of snowball. Not sure where you got crit.
> [{quoted}](name=Snowplosion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2017-12-12T03:51:27.433+0000) > > Funny enough lethality ADCs are back in meta because of snowball. Not sure where you got crit. its only really mf. jhinn builds 1 lethality item and then straight into crit. every other marksman still seems to rush i.e. and double zeals.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: I feel like this would help stop the extreme snowballing of this game
the number 1 factor of snowballing right now is bot lane due to cheap itemization and high potential for gold generation (champion first blood possibly a double kill, into turret first blood). what really needs to happen to slow down snowballing in this game: > > {{item:3031}} {{item:3508}} price increases 100 gold. (3500) > > {{item:3086}} combine cost increase 100 gold. (1300) > > {{item:3087}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3085}} price increases 300 gold. (2900) > > {{item:3046}} price increase 300 to 400 gold. (3000) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- but we all know marksmen are just going to jump to the next cheapest builds to cheese themselves an early power spike, which is lethality. crit builds would just become "troll builds" and ad caster marksmen and lethality stacking marksmen builds would become meta over crit stacking marksmen again. so we also do this: > > {{item:3147}} combine cost increase by 300 gold. (3200) > {{item:3142}} combine cost increase by 100 gold. (3000) > {{item:3814}} combine cost increase by 100 gold. (3200) melee ad assassins get **lethality scalings** added to their kits. so the items become more expensive and take longer to finish, but the cost increase is compensated for them by also making the items more slot effective for their intended users. instead of doing the usual thing of increasing an item cost and slapping 10 ad to compensate on it, we do things like: //**disclaimer:** _these are just general examples of what could be done by adding lethality scalings to assassin kits. theyre just concepts and not 100% correct numbers. theyre just proof of concept. _ > {{champion:91}} gets a 1.0 lethality scaling added to the heal on his q > {{champion:238}} gets a 1.0 lethality scaling added to the base damage of his ult (or his passive?) > {{champion:141}} assassin kayn gets lethality scalings added to his movement speed buff and heal on his e > {{champion:107}} gets 1.0 lethality scaling added to the damage of his bola > {{champion:121}} gets 1.0 lethality scaling to his isolation damage > and others that i might have missed. just generally increase price and effectiveness of lethality items on their intended users, and make them relative more expensive and difficult for marksmen to pick up. this should prevent marksmen from flipping between lethality and crit itemization like a switch, depending on which of the two makes them power spike earlier in the game at the time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **edit.:** we all know the easiest way to deal with lethality marksmen would be to make duskblade melee only, but since riot has been stubborn with limiting items to melee champions, we do the equivalent to {{champion:498}} crit scaling on her e, and put lethality scalings in melee assassin kits to make the items relative more effective for them despite allowing melee and ranged to pick them up.
Rioter Comments
FooDang (NA)
: What I got out of this post is that you don't proofread your material.
> [{quoted}](name=FooDang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=omIeHEU5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:27:52.756+0000) > > What I got out of this post is that you don't proofread your material. his point is still valid. i remember at the beginning of last season when trist mains asked for buffs because she doesnt deal enough damage to hypercarry. at that point i thought, why the fuck should she be able to hypercarry when shes probably the safest adc in the game next to ezreal and cait? and then they still buffed her q.
: Im not sure a price increase of 100 gold would be enough to swing the current situation around, the problem with ADC (mainly crit) itemization is, as you yourself said, far more deeply rooted in the ridiculous amount of synergy the stat has with other ADC-desirable stats...
> [{quoted}](name=Azure Northwing,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T21:06:51.583+0000) > > Im not sure a price increase of 100 gold would be enough to swing the current situation around, the problem with ADC (mainly crit) itemization is, as you yourself said, far more deeply rooted in the ridiculous amount of synergy the stat has with other ADC-desirable stats... i said 300 to 400 gold on completed zeal items and a 100 gold on i.e.
: That's not much of a gold increase do you think? Would increasing the cost by 2-4 minion waves worth of CS make that much of a difference?
> [{quoted}](name=Karunamon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-11T18:52:09.305+0000) > > That's not much of a gold increase do you think? Would increasing the cost by 2-4 minion waves worth of CS make that much of a difference? it would make a difference. stacking double zeal and i.e. would become 700 gold to 800 gold more expensive which would put it "just" on even terms with bruiser and mage item costs. it would delay marksmen power spikes of a single kill or a double kill at least.
: I find it funny how someone named "Critmaster Garen" can complain this much about Crit itemization in specific... Real ironic, eh? No offense, im not trying to be a d1ck or anything, just poking some light fun... {{sticker:garen-swing}}
> [{quoted}](name=Azure Northwing,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T15:59:45.396+0000) > > I find it funny how someone named "Critmaster Garen" can complain this much about Crit itemization in specific... Real ironic, eh? > No offense, im not trying to be a d1ck or anything, just poking some light fun... > > {{sticker:garen-swing}} i gladly pay 100 gold more for i.e. if other lanes than bot get some agency over the game in return. zeal items being sold at discount price has been going on for too long.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: They need to add base Armor and MR to almost every champion. Then we wouldn't be in this snowball mess, at least not as bad.
> [{quoted}](name=MrHaZeYo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-11T12:12:46.798+0000) > > They need to add base Armor and MR to almost every champion. > > Then we wouldn't be in this snowball mess, at least not as bad. they did add base armor. every single champion either got some extra base health added or 9 armor, or a combination of armor and health to compensate for the lack of yellow runes. some tanks got like 20 base armor increases if im not mistaken. the lack of mr isnt the reason why games snowball. if you pay attention, its always bot lane thats snowballing out of control and running away with the game, because adc items are absurdly cheap. {{item:3031}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3094}} double zeal + i.e. items are built on almost every marksman. the other ones are combining i.e. + shiv with a lethality item like {{item:3142}} in either case, these builds are the cheapest 3 item builds in the game just after support itemization (who are also laning on bot, and exist to inject even more stats into the adc) by a large margin of 500 to 1000 gold behind all other carry classes. yet they scale the hardest by synergizing with themselves by multiplying ad, crit, crit damage and attack speed with each other.
: Number one complaint about games still: Too snowbally, get out of control too fast, this isn't fun
games are snowballing out of bot lane, because crit and support builds are the cheapest builds in the game. plus, kills on bot lane often result in 2 people getting fed instead of one. or the marksman getting super fed with multiple kills off one fight and then turret first blood. on top of it, crit items synergize with each other in a way where they outscale all other carry itemization in the game. i mean its pretty obvious how all these factors combined make bot lane the absolutely dominating factor over the game. one fight down there gives one side such a massive power spike of cheap and powerful items, that theyre just running away with the game. they need to largely increase the price of crit items. zeal items need to cost 300 to 400 gold more. infinity edge and essence reaver a 100 gold more than they do now. stattic shiv and rapidfire should not be allowed to stack anymore to prevent this dumb burst that comes out of marksmen builds. its downright absurd how cheap completed zeal items are for how strongly they scale.
: Let me ask the team about this tomorrow. Seems reasonable as an idea - though I'm completely oblivious to what the work looks like for settings stuff
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j5PlHFft,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-11T06:05:32.263+0000) > > Let me ask the team about this tomorrow. Seems reasonable as an idea - though I'm completely oblivious to what the work looks like for settings stuff just for clarity reasons. it makes more sense for bounty hunter runes to show which champion stacks youre missing rather which ones youve earned already. technically it doesnt make much of a difference, but i think it should be a little bit quicker to check which stacks you need still. because thats the information people are really looking for.
: Will there ever be a godness tear mana stackable TANK item?
i dont see a reason why not, but im still going to ask. why do you need it? there are tank items that have a lot of mana attached. {{item:3025}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3800}}
: When exactly does he want rfc out of curiosity? Seems like other crit items would all be better if he wanted crit, which itself is kinda niche. Unless you're you I guess.
> [{quoted}](name=Mysticman89,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y0bYc6vE,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-12-11T02:48:05.759+0000) > > When exactly does he want rfc out of curiosity? Seems like other crit items would all be better if he wanted crit, which itself is kinda niche. Unless you're you I guess. increases his q/auto attack range when its empowered. like i said. some of the items there are nieche and depending on your playstile.
kaironen (NA)
: This New Grasp of the Undying change is not a Good Idea
> [{quoted}](name=kaironen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ytcBF8wX,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-10T23:57:31.768+0000) > > The number 1 issue with changing Grasp of the undying is how bad the rune diversity will be, specifically to tanks. you have 2 runes. a lot of fighters currently have one. and thats grasp. and grasp will still be a viable option for tanks after the change.
: The point is that you don't have to build FM and you get it from the start of the game. If you get gunblade, zhonyas and the right runes, you have gunblade on like a 22 second CD and Zhonyas on a 44. Once gunblade is finished you can poke down the enemy champion, slowly whittling down their health while regenerating whatever damage you take in a trade.
> [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t3bQTNkZ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T23:13:55.948+0000) > > The point is that you don't have to build FM and you get it from the start of the game. If you get gunblade, zhonyas and the right runes, you have gunblade on like a 22 second CD and Zhonyas on a 44. > > Once gunblade is finished you can poke down the enemy champion, slowly whittling down their health while regenerating whatever damage you take in a trade. well. i guess thats why hes getting nerfed.
: Glacial augment teemo. Melee champions just CANNOT engage you without losing. It's glorious.
> [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t3bQTNkZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-09T22:53:58.136+0000) > > Glacial augment teemo. Melee champions just CANNOT engage you without losing. It's glorious. so the same as frozen mallet, just with a cooldown. whats the point?
: Does Focused Assault Keystone amplify True damage?
whats "focused assault"? you mean press the attack? because % damage amp doesnt affect true damage.
: Give kayn kit to an other champion
: Teemo Life is hard this season
> [{quoted}](name=Giggle Physics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jOZqorEX,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-06T07:49:01.135+0000) > > I'm just really fucking frustrated isnt that ironic.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:24:04.236+0000) > > not when your lane opponent is last pick aswell and drafts before you. > > im not deciding on the champion im playing before my lane opponent did if i can avoid it. that would be retarded. top lane is heavily counterpick influenced. you cant just pick whatever the fuck you want or half the time youll screw yourself over. > > this is how people constantly counterpick themselves and then get smashed. > > if i dont know which champion im going to pick, i dont know which rune setup i need yet. once again. A you problem. Not Riot's issue at all
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:30:14.472+0000) > > once again. A you problem. Not Riot's issue at all so whats your stake in this? are you just white knighting or are you that bothered about an extra 5 seconds in champ select until the season starts?
SatomiKun (EUW)
: When you are last pick, you got the extra time while the other guys are all picking. Never had a problem getting my runes when I was last pick.
> [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:22:59.655+0000) > > When you are last pick, you got the extra time while the other guys are all picking. > > Never had a problem getting my runes when I was last pick. not when your lane opponent is last pick aswell and drafts before you. im not deciding on the champion im playing before my lane opponent did if i can avoid it. that would be retarded. top lane is heavily counterpick influenced. you cant just pick whatever the fuck you want or half the time youll screw yourself over. excuuuse me that i didnt want to pick garen into fucking teemo and needed a moment to decide which champion ill pick instead and then what rune setup i take. this is how people constantly counterpick themselves and then get smashed. if i dont know which champion im going to pick, i dont know which rune setup i need yet.
: Instead of complaining about ADC's in general, complain about the no-skill OP ADCs
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T15:39:38.864+0000) > > do you know how rarely i get last pick? in past seasons i also had my runes and masteries worked out. not to mention the timers werent always this short, so in the past i didnt need the extra time. > > its not that long since riot cut a lot off the timers in champ select. > > this is the first time that happened to me since the client update. this seems more of a you issue than anything else. This has been a thing for a while and it was actually announced when it got implemented.
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T16:19:46.506+0000) > > this seems more of a you issue than anything else. This has been a thing for a while and it was actually announced when it got implemented. why though. they could at least put an extra 5 seconds on the timer between champion lock of the last person, and game start. at least in preseason. i was put on the spot to pick my champion due to my opponents pick being last aswell. so i needed some time to figure out which runes i wanted to take against the enemy teamcomp. if i had locked in, i would have had 10 seocnds or less for my decision process. at least give me 15 seconds.
ANFU (NA)
: Are you new to the game? That has always hows it has been....
> [{quoted}](name=ANFU,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-09T15:37:59.120+0000) > > Are you new to the game? That has always hows it has been.... do you know how rarely i get last pick? in past seasons i also had my runes and masteries worked out. not to mention the timers werent always this short, so in the past i didnt need the extra time. its not that long since riot cut a lot off the timers in champ select. this is the first time that happened to me since the client update.
Rioter Comments
: I think it may be time to nerf duskblade again
not before marksmen get nerfed. we need assassins to keep them in check.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=000200040000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T13:59:24.975+0000) > > that alone is not enough. you have 2 people down on bot lane. one gank to either side often means a double kill for bot lane. at which point they start to snowball and take off. > > there are two factors that makes marksmen power spike too early. > > 1.) zeal items are too cheap. there is no way around it. 2600 gold for a completed zeal item is not enough of a cost for the stats they provide. 2800 gold should be the minimum. > > 2.) zeal and rapid fire still stack. this combination creates ridiculous burst and lets marksmen blow up other squishies. 2800 is too much. 2700 is what they used to be and was fine.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=0002000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T14:00:25.693+0000) > > 2800 is too much. > > 2700 is what they used to be and was fine. 2700 isnt enough either. its still too cheap compared to other carry classes itemization. a compelted zeal item like {{item:3046}} is the equivalent of {{item:3165}} as multiplicative stats to your main damage source. either ad or ap. there is just too much of a price difference. and crit items syngerize so well with each other, that they outscale these other classes. when zeal items were still 2700 gold was before the buff to global gold generation in season 6. they increased the prices of all items initially with that buff and then gradually made adc items cheaper and cheaper while other items stayed expensive.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=0002000400000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T13:53:44.604+0000) > > games are so fast because marksmen snowball them. > > which turret goes down first each game? you guessed it. its the fuckign bot lane turret. > > bot lane as a whole and marksmen in specific are the ENTIRE SOURCE of the games snowball right now. more expensive marksmen builds slow down marksmen snowballing, which slows down game snowballing. Why do bot turrets go down first? Remember the change they did to stop lane swapping in LCS? They removed the early game fortification from bot lane turrets in patch 6.15. Mid and top lane turrets take significantly reduced damage for the first 5 minutes of the game. They could stop it by putting Fortification back on the bot lane turrets. As someone who plays both ADC and Support I am tired of being poked out of lane or tower dived and killed once and my tower being gone by the time I respawn.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020004000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T13:55:33.808+0000) > > Why do bot turrets go down first? > > Remember the change they did to stop lane swapping in LCS? They removed the early game fortification from bot lane turrets. > > Mid and top lane turrets take significantly reduced damage for the first ~7 minutes of the game. > > They could stop it by putting Fortification back on the bot lane turrets. that alone is not enough. you have 2 people down on bot lane. one gank to either side often means a double kill for bot lane. at which point they start to snowball and take off. there are two factors that makes marksmen power spike too early. 1.) zeal items are too cheap. there is no way around it. 2600 gold for a completed zeal item is not enough of a cost for the stats they provide. 2800 gold should be the minimum. 2900 gold would be fai, with 3000 gold for phantom dancer. this would put them almost on equal terms when compared to the cost of mage and bruiser items. 2.) zeal and rapid fire still stack. this combination creates ridiculous burst and lets marksmen blow up other squishies.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sasogwa,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020004,timestamp=2017-12-08T21:08:03.914+0000) > > Would it really nerf to unplayability the one class that survived every metagame? I very much doubt so. I'm fine with marksman having expensive builds. IF GAMES ARE SLOWER. With the amount of snowballing and sub 25 minute wins it would make marksman near unplayable.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=000200040000,timestamp=2017-12-09T12:29:18.715+0000) > > I'm fine with marksman having expensive builds. > > IF GAMES ARE SLOWER. > > With the amount of snowballing and sub 25 minute wins it would make marksman near unplayable. games are so fast because marksmen snowball them. which turret goes down first each game? you guessed it. its the fuckign bot lane turret. and marksmen running around with 8600 gold 3 item power spikes when everyone else needs nearly 10k gold until they get their first 3 items together. bot lane as a whole and marksmen in specific are the ENTIRE SOURCE of the games snowball right now. marksmen and support builds are the cheapest item builds in the game. thats why they nsowball the fuck out of the game with a couple kills and turret first blood. more expensive marksmen builds slow down marksmen snowballing, which slows down game snowballing.
: Why not nerf the ranged carries? Crit items are already un buildable by pretty much every non ADC champion.
> [{quoted}](name=TeCoolMage,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020000000000000000001800000001,timestamp=2017-12-09T12:05:15.776+0000) > > Why not nerf the ranged carries? Crit items are already un buildable by pretty much every non ADC champion. because they are too fucking cheap. when melee carries who build crit need buffs afterwards, so be it. but the problem remains that adc power spike too soon, because crit builds are the second cheapest build path after support items, while they scale **the hardest**. how does this make sense?
: As a fighter main, I'm relieved to see that Teemo nerf
Jbels (NA)
: Grasp of the Undying
doesnt ornns e damage scale with reistances? why would you not want aftershock on him?
: Grasp on PBE concerns
> [{quoted}](name=War The Horseman,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=17nMB1XM,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-09T10:09:27.905+0000) > > 1 AD = 35 GOLD > > 1 AP = 22.75 GOLD > > Grasp gives 1 AD for every 100 Max HP and 1.25 AP for every 100 Max HP. > > So AD champs get 35 gold per 100 HP from this mastery but AP champs get only 28.4 GOLD. > > A grasp proc on a 3000 HP AD champ is 1050 GOLD in stats but an AP champ gets only 853 GOLD. > > Why does an AD take 200 gold more out of the rune than an AP? > > I am sick of this BS Riot. What happened to fair exchange rates? > > Nerf the AD ratio or buff the AP but I don't want to get nearly 20% less gold in stats with grasp than an AD champ. because most tanks scale with ap and they actually have pretty high scalings at times. no one expects the rune on a mage. the main targets for grasp are fighters and tanks. and tanks have the potential to live longer and build more stacks over the course of a fight. riot doesnt want {{champion:57}} with 500 ap on a full tank build happening.
: ok riot, the jokes gotten old now. time to deal with adc damage
crit item price increase. {{item:3031}} 3600 gold {{item:3508}} 3600 gold {{item:3086}} 1300 gold {{item:3087}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3085}} 2900 gold {{item:3046}} 3000 gold you want to stop the snowball happening in bot lane and give mid and top lane agency over the game? make marksmen items not the cheapest items in the game after supports. make shiv and rapid fire not stack anymore to get rid of that retarded on-hit burst, because marksmen shouldnt burst like assassins with i.e. crits + shiv/rf procs. that way even with a double kill on bot lane for the adc, hes not running away with the game, as his items are appropriately expensive for how much damage he gets out of them.
: I stopped at "Garen 100-0 you" Please concoct a better troll post.
> [{quoted}](name=WhiteUranium,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=VjEdB2zy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-09T05:57:43.509+0000) > > I stopped at "Garen 100-0 you" > > Please concoct a better troll post. maybe if he just stands there and lets garen auto attack him. lol.
: Renekton, once he got out of the Varus ult snare, autoed Varus, then stood around for a 1 second doing nothing, then autoed him, and then stood around for a second doing nothing, and died.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020000000000000000000500020001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T05:12:12.129+0000) > > Renekton, once he got out of the Varus ult snare, autoed Varus, then stood around for a 1 second doing nothing, then autoed him, and then stood around for a second doing nothing, and died. he stopped autoing because he was locked in his ult animation. really, there is no excuse for varus just being able to straight up melee a 2 levels ahead equal gold renekton. when hes not getting stomped by other adc in lane and gets to scale, hes actually quite fucking powerful.
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=0002000000000000000000180000,timestamp=2017-12-09T04:47:20.906+0000) > > even if yi would build crit, which he doesnt I play "classic" Yi. Yi used to be a crit-exclusive champion. People didn't build anything else on him. But then with all his bugs and etc popular streamers got frustrated and started building bruiser (dying in alpha because it was bugged for months at a time etc) If popular streamers never started going the bruiser route people would probably still build crit.
> [{quoted}](name=I Follow Christ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020000000000000000001800000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T05:20:35.424+0000) > > I play "classic" Yi. Yi used to be a crit-exclusive champion. People didn't build anything else on him. > > But then with all his bugs and etc popular streamers got frustrated and started building bruiser (dying in alpha because it was bugged for months at a time etc) > > If popular streamers never started going the bruiser route people would probably still build crit. i know his classic build. right now yi just gets bloodrazor and bork, since he synergizes so extremely well with attack speed and gains stupid amount of % shred off it. even when he builds glass cannon, hes usually not going crit.
: I want to play ranked garen and ge t diamond but i suck
which part do you suck at? one of the most important things you can learn on garen to itemize according to the situation. he has probably more build diversity than 90% of the champions in the game. his viable item pool consists of {{item:3194}} {{item:3060}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3123}} {{item:3156}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3074}} {{item:3800}} {{item:2422}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3047}} {{item:3009}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3748}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3083}} {{item:3512}} {{item:3075}} some of these items will be incredibly nieche depending on your lane matchups, the enemy team and your playstile, while some of those youll want to build in most games. but his item builds can massively vary depending on the situation. finding the right items depending on your own teamcomp, the enemy teamcomp and your playstile is largely important on garen. you rarely ever want to build the same items every game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-08T17:22:54.687+0000) > > -3 ad on Vayne on patch 5.20 was a much memed about change IRT how useless it was. That change resulted in 2.5% drop in winrate (if that's the metric we'd choose here), and curbed a fair amount of the outcry against her at the time. > > Taking 5-15 damage away from a full build is actually a lot more impactful than you might think, especially on a class of champions that relies on their auto attacks (primarily) for damage. This tactic coupled with the gold increase would be effective - but it would also likely leave only a few marksman as considered viable (Ezreal, MF, Varus, Kog etc). It would also affect melee ADCs, like full crit Master Yi {{champion:11}}
> [{quoted}](name=I Follow Christ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=000200000000000000000018,timestamp=2017-12-09T03:09:03.412+0000) > > It would also affect melee ADCs, like full crit Master Yi {{champion:11}} even if yi would build crit, which he doesnt and makes him a bad example ({{champion:23}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:41}} are better examples), there is no reason to leave zeal items in an overpowered state. you can always just buff the melee carries if that nerf hits them too hard. id also like to note, while the nerf to crit items might affect melee carries, for marksmen to have less game impact because theyre snowballing the shit out of the game on bot lane would still be an improvement for them.
: Except Ashe and Varus aren't overtunned compared to other non-marksmen. I don't know why you think they are, despite all things pointing opposite, but I think that maybe champions who are perfectly fine don't need nerfs.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=000200000000000000000005000200010000,timestamp=2017-12-09T00:44:21.038+0000) > > Except Ashe and Varus aren't overtunned compared to other non-marksmen. I don't know why you think they are, despite all things pointing opposite, but I think that maybe champions who are perfectly fine don't need nerfs. oh really? > [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AAOsZEsT,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-03T07:59:58.994+0000) > > Just an FYI Renekton and Varus were even on gold > https://youtu.be/m_3ghMTFnR4 there is absolutely no excuse someone could make for this ever to be acceptable.
: riots changing grasp of the undying again XD
the healing seems really nice. its going to be good on juggers and tanks i think.
: > increasing the zeal upgrades by 200 across the board What does that do? You literally nerfed every marksmen despite a majority of them being issues. Twitch, Tristana, Xayah, MF still outclass everyone. You just made Varus and Ashe mostly unplayable.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=0002000000000000000000050002,timestamp=2017-12-08T22:30:05.533+0000) > > What does that do? You literally nerfed every marksmen despite a majority of them being issues. Twitch, Tristana, Xayah, MF still outclass everyone. You just made Varus and Ashe mostly unplayable. thats exactly the goal. if you nerf Twitch, Tristana, Xayah and MF, then varus and ashe are still too strong in relation to other champions. there is a video going around of a varus just facetanking a renekton who has 2 levels on him and is equal in gold, and varus just straight up melee auto attacked him to death. ALL marksmen are overtuned. while ashe and varus arent relevant compared to twitch and mf, theyre still way too strong compared to other carry archetypes.
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Critmaster Garen

Level 12 (NA)
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