Saezio (EUNE)
: It is a bad idea though. Because ludens/Seraphs/GLP are busted AF compared to RoA. And they don't need 10 mins to stack (tear does need stacking but It's active is amazing) Roa is a niche item that only suits a couple extremely mana hungry champs like Ryze or Casio and even those don't always build it. There is a reason almost no champ has roa in their build. It's good for aram though.
> [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hPvWq3Qg,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T22:20:14.857+0000) > > It is a bad idea though. > > Because ludens/Seraphs/GLP are busted AF compared to RoA. And they don't need 10 mins to stack (tear does need stacking but It's active is amazing) > > > Roa is a niche item that only suits a couple extremely mana hungry champs like Ryze or Casio and even those don't always build it. > > > There is a reason almost no champ has roa in their build. It's good for aram though. I don't know. I have played many matchups where the extra damage that ludens/Seraphs/GLP and other mage items provide is negated by the extra hp the ROA gives. Also ROA is really good for staying in lane phase because it will constantly generate health regardless if the user is a mana dependant champion or not. Also if a mage wants to build a Seraphs, that couples really well with ROA because it gives a maximum of 400 mana (12 ap). Not only that, but if mages build mana/ap items with little survivability, they are forced to rely on Hourglass as their main lifeline, and that requires the correct conditions to save the champion ( end of fight, allies nearby etc). ROA gives more freedom for mages to soak damage and stay in the fight because of raw hp gain and health restored per ability cast. Also ROA has the third highest raw ap gain from a single item (60 + 40 over time). The only other two items that provide higher ap are Deathcap (120 + 40%) and Spellbinder (120 + 0-80 from activation). The shortest average game time per rank is 25:37 minutes, and that is at Grandmaster rank, while Bronze matches last the longest at 30:12. That is including games that end early due to surrenders, so matches usually last longer than that. If ROA is built as a first item, it is safe to say that it is usually built before 13 minutes. Also ROA has a fairly low build cost (2600 gold) so building it earlier than 13 minutes would not be hard at all. However, Ludens Echo costs 3200 gold to build which is about 23% more gold to build. Honestly ROA isn't a bad item to build for any mage.
: Idk I play {{champion:55}} and just kill him while it's still spinning, since the vast majority of her damage completely ignores his E, and {{item:3135}} turns his R active into a pretty lightshow I get to watch while he's dying.
> [{quoted}](name=Kat XD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QtqZMdqK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-12T22:12:52.303+0000) > > Idk I play {{champion:55}} and just kill him while it's still spinning, since the vast majority of her damage completely ignores his E, and {{item:3135}} turns his R active into a pretty lightshow I get to watch while he's dying. I don't mean to disrespect or offend you, but I noticed that you are playing at low gold elo, at least on this account. My rank isn't too much higher than you, but I believe that a skilled Jax player could easily pick one of two options to deal with Kat. 1. leap away to safety by keeping a ward handy or using minions or champions. Or 2. Time counterstrike properly so that its ready to release the moment a Kat would shunpo next to Jax and stun her out of ult and burst her for most, if not all of her hp. Personally I commend you for being able to deal with Jax players, but if I played Jax and got decent at him I probably could work around a Kat. Besides, Kat players usually don't build any item with Spellblade so she is basically entirely exempt from this post. However, as League is a team game, it could be very frustrating if you are the ONLY champion that has a counterplay to Jax, and if he gets too fed off of other champs, all he has to do is build HP and Kat's burst is mostly insignificant with his kit and lifesteal.
SFHFWill (NA)
: This would completely crap all over Shen , would hurt Xin if faced against an Ezreal for the sole purpose of fixing Jax. Jax is broken because of Spirit of Shojin. There are a few champions that abuse that item far too well. This is basically the issue Rito had with DFG, a few champs used DFG far too well and they kept trying to balance champs that abused it around that item, making that item 100% required rush on them. It's bad design. Champs that abuse Shojin too well: {{champion:164}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:92}} There might be more but these are the ones I see that make far too much use out of that item.
> [{quoted}](name=SFHFWill,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QtqZMdqK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-12T22:39:41.920+0000) > > This would completely crap all over Shen , would hurt Xin if faced against an Ezreal for the sole purpose of fixing Jax. Jax is broken because of Spirit of Shojin. There are a few champions that abuse that item far too well. This is basically the issue Rito had with DFG, a few champs used DFG far too well and they kept trying to balance champs that abused it around that item, making that item 100% required rush on them. It's bad design. > > Champs that abuse Shojin too well: > {{champion:164}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:92}} > > There might be more but these are the ones I see that make far too much use out of that item. I would like to clear up some points real quick. 1. Xin would be completely unaffected by the changes I proposed for Spellblade, since there are no dodges in his kit. If you are thinking about his ult, then you misunderstood. Xin is completely invulnerable to damage outside of his circle. Instead of dodging attacks and spells he negates them to 0 damage. The factor for Xin isn't if he dodges or not, it's if he negates or not. 2. Spellblade already has a 1.5 second cooldown, so not every spellcast will buff the users next attack. The player would have to time their autos and spellcasts correctly to effectively use the item. 3. That said, I do agree that this change is focused around Jax. but it would also affect shen. However I believe that it would be extremely rare that Shen is affected. His ability to dodge requires his sword to create a zone where Shen dodges attacks. This zone only lasts for 1.75 seconds. That is only enough for a single Spellblade use, and even then, it is a very short time window with a long cooldown (18 / 16.5 / 15 / 13.5 / 12). It would require planning, timing and skill just to effectively proc that single auto on Shen in his dodge. Also Shen has to stay inside of his zone in order to dodge. Therefore, I believe that dodging is not crucial to Shen's kit and that the affect on him from getting hit once from spellblade would be insignificant. Also as you pointed out, Shen users do not build Spear of Shojin, so there's no real incentive for a Shen to play around his dodge, because Shen cannot spam his dodge ability that easily. 4. I would say that items are what actually build champions. As you said Spear of Shojin is a very strong item, and there are a few champs that can abuse it. However that is a design change that I really haven't thought of and I may make a post about it later. For now I am just sticking with Spellblade and how it can be tweaked slightly to allow more counterplay against Jax, which will lower his banrate and increase his playrate without tilting players. My initial thoughts on tweaking Spear of Shojin would be to keep the cost but keep the damage at 40 (BF Sword) instead of 60, and keep its health increase to 200 (Kindlegem) instead of 250 while keeping the same cost. 5. Onto Jax. I probably should have put my full thoughts in my original post but I was being lazy so I didn't fully explain why I chose this. For that, I apologize, but I'll explain my thinking here. Dodging is a crucial part of Jax's kit. His dodge ability has a higher dodge time of up to 2 seconds depending on if the player cancels it early or not. Also the cooldown is pretty low at higher levels (16 / 14 / 12 / 10 / 8). This allows Jax to usually use his dodge ability several times during a fight. If I had to decide, I would guess that during a fight, Jax can get up to 6 seconds of dodging, while Shen would get 3.5 at the most. If Spear of Shojin is built, then Jax could get upwards of 10 seconds of dodging, almost 3 times as much as Shen. While Spellblade might get 2 hits on Shen if timed perfectly, it could guarantee 6 hits on Jax with some leeway for timing. Also, during counterstrike, every attack that Jax dodges increases is stun damage. Not only would Spellblade give fighters a chance to damage Jax, but also slightly reduce the amount of damage he deals to them out of dodge. I don't believe the change in Spellblade would break any champion or nullify Jax even though dodging is a crucial part of his kit. Many toplaners already build sheen items and a few adcs also build them. Giving this buff to Spellblade would just provide more of an incentive to build sheen items for damage dealers if Jax becomes too much of a problem. I say it is balanced because the guaranteed hits will only happen occasionally due to Spellblade Cooldown, and Jax can still dodge all other basic attacks. Also the overwhelming majority of champions that build Spellblade items are champions that would be forced to fight Jax like toplaners or a few mages. This change would take the edge off of Jax's sustain without completely ruining his champion as well as slightly reducing the amount of damage he can do with only counterstrike in mind.
: sure but i dont think it will change anything. i was hoping that you were gonna say something along the lines of making ROA a more attractive item by stacking quicker or something.
> [{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hPvWq3Qg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-12T21:45:06.228+0000) > > sure but i dont think it will change anything. > > i was hoping that you were gonna say something along the lines of making ROA a more attractive item by stacking quicker or something. Honestly I think that ROA is a good enough item already because of that passive. However there's no real way to see how effective it is, so I could be wrong. That's why I want to see the healing stats. I believe that ROA gives enough healing and sustain that all mages should build it. Also, it only takes 10 minutes for Roa to get full stacks. Building ROA as a first item doesn't seem like a bad idea given that it constantly provides MP and HP regen.
Rioter Comments
: What exactly is Jax's weakness?
I was thinking about this for a while now, and I think I've found the perfect balancing item for Jax. Unique passive, Spellblade. It is used by Sheen, Triforce, Lich bane, and Iceborn Gauntlet. If there was an added effect of Spellblade where only the empowered attack cannot be dodged, then Jax would easily be balanced. There are many toplaners and mages who use Spellblade through Lich Bane or Triforce. Of course, Jax would still be able to dodge ordinary attacks, but if just that one hit every two seconds is guaranteed to hit, then it allows some counterplay where Jax isnt entirely invincible. Champions like fizz, Ez, Fio, Camille, Dar, etc would be able to still land some damage while not entirely ruining Jax as a champion. Thoughts?
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CrownClownBuilds

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