: Fix Q, add 20% MS to passive, nerf E AS passive —> Simple QOL buff Diana main plz upvote ~
> [{quoted}](name=InfernaI Diana,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZOH65NIy,comment-id=00bb,timestamp=2019-05-15T14:55:13.759+0000) > > Fix Q, add 20% MS to passive, nerf E AS passive —> Simple QOL buff > > Diana main plz upvote ~ Sorry dude but this would fail to resolve her issue of being either an assassin without escape or a fighter with no items or reward for building tanky. These are the two fundamental problems with her: she lacks the basic ability to excel in either role. I say with the utmost respect for you and your video's/experience.
: Hey there, I totally follow the Diana subreddit and all the suggestions and ideas that get thrown in there. Did you have a specific example of the one you mentioned offhand? I really don't want to change her pattern too much as a whole, but just provide a better play experience when it comes to reliance of AP and Spell casts.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Zhanos,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZOH65NIy,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-05-14T22:22:54.793+0000) > > Hey there, I totally follow the Diana subreddit and all the suggestions and ideas that get thrown in there. Did you have a specific example of the one you mentioned offhand? > > I really don't want to change her pattern too much as a whole, but just provide a better play experience when it comes to reliance of AP and Spell casts. Would be nice to see some responses to posts on there from you. A lot of regulars there avoid the boards due to the extensive trolling that is rife on here lol
: Heya! First, thanks for taking the time to reply and give me your thoughts on this. I'm also going to agree that most of the changes can read as a power down overall when reading through them. A lot of the power that i'm trying to redistribute is scattered in places where it's really hard to tell from a glance. The base stats, movement speed buff and Q changes should be where the bulk of the improvements are when it comes to playing around with them. Would love to hear more of this if you get a chance to play around with it and feel the same way.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Zhanos,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZOH65NIy,comment-id=00080005,timestamp=2019-05-14T21:53:15.321+0000) > > Heya! First, thanks for taking the time to reply and give me your thoughts on this. I'm also going to agree that most of the changes can read as a power down overall when reading through them. > > A lot of the power that i'm trying to redistribute is scattered in places where it's really hard to tell from a glance. The base stats, movement speed buff and Q changes should be where the bulk of the improvements are when it comes to playing around with them. > > Would love to hear more of this if you get a chance to play around with it and feel the same way. If you're interested in suggestions: You've stated your aims as: _Goals with those changes are the following: -Increase Diana’s Time to Kill by a small amount -Revert the “spell weaving” paradigm that was introduced in 7.14 -Give her a little more mobility in fights and skirmishes_ Increasing her time to kill without enabling her escape will require additional protection while she does so. I agree the spell weaving did nothing but benefit high AP builds, but the 20% movement speed buff does nothing to aid her with the mobility issues she faces as a diver/assassin with no escape, at best two dashes, and with no hard CC. In the case of AD fighters their items grant them both passive scaling through converting base stats into additional damage, but also stack well with each other to give additional benefits when building HP (Steraks, Triforce, BC, Titanic). Riots attempts to resolve this in the past has been to give AP fighters abilities similar benefits (Diana and Sylas AOE damage on passive instead of an item to allow this). Why not consider doing this to a certain degree with Diana? Might I therefore suggest the following in addition to the changes you stated: W: Scales off both AP and HP. This would encourage the more tanky builds you are looking for while not hampering the assassin style gameplay. R: Multiple resets either through kills or through Q not being consumed on all targets when R is used. You could even have her Q do her damage in two parts; 70% of the damage on the spells initial hit and then the other 30% done when she damages them again. This would add spell expression to her kit without hampering her all in. Just some things for you to consider. -- DW Diana --
nelogis (EUW)
: AP Bruisers will always be a balance nightmare with the current set of items
From what I can see the only thing that sets AP and AD fighters apart from one another is passive scaling from items. When you talk about items like {{item:3078}} {{item:3748}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3071}} the thing you need to look at is how they scale throughout the game. {{item:3078}} - BASE AD scaling means every level it does more on hit...for free {{item:3748}} - More damage the more HP you have. Every item you're going to build has HP, and as you level you again get more HP. Again this is free extra damage but also tankiness {{item:3053}} - More AD based on you BASE AD, and you get a bigger shield the more HP you've got, which is any item you're likely to build and as you level. {{item:3071}} - Armour shred based on any physical damage done. As your opponents level and gain armour this is going to do more, but also unlike things like witts end, this works on ANY physical damage, not just AA's meaning DoT's or Ghouls or tentacles also stack this up for you. The simple fact is because EVERY AD fighter can build just one or two of these items and gain free scaling for the rest of the game off TANKY stats like HP, they are naturally superior at their role than their AP equivalents. Look at Irelia: She scales far better off AP than AD but why bother? She can still do stupid damage with the AD items, and also gets free AOE, HP, a shield, movement speed, and an AA reset. Meanwhile the AP only Divers {{champion:131}} {{champion:60}} are forced to build mage items and be played as assassins. The same is true for Juggernauts, where champions like {{champion:420}}, {{champion:122}} and {{champion:83}} only really have to build one or two of the above items and be a monster while {{champion:82}} builds mage items throughout. The sad fact is that currently there isn't a single item that is designed to be used by AP fighters, there are just mage and ADC items that are better than nothing.
Hiskaya (EUNE)
: Nerfing Diana?
Tbh Riots main attention should be towards fixing Diana's bugs and giving her some AP fighter items. The disparity between AP and AD itemization for Divers, Bruisers and Juggernauts is far more damaging to Diana than the removal of the R+Q combo, and her having bugs with 3/5 of her abilities for the last 3 years (that I've been aware of) without remedy is purely ludicrous.
: Everyone wants to see damage nerfed but no one's willing to have their class nerfed.
As a Diana main I'll tell you now thats not the case for me. Can I build loads of AP and 1 shot? Yes. But would I rather have some actual AP fighter items like Steraks, Titanic, BC, DD and Triforce and be as strong in a fight as Shyvana, Jax, Irelia, Aatrox etc? Hell yeah.
: Simple and Clean. What is Balance? Tell me.
Balance is about viability. Every champion should have situations where they are the optimal choice, and the ability to play their role to as close to equal ability as possible. A good example of this is Malzahar. Malz is rarely a massive carry, but neither is he really ever not a threat. Because of this he is optimal in situations where you want a safe laner that will scale and contribute to teamfights later on. Compare this to someone like Mordekaiser and you can see he is unbalanced, and not in a nice way. Forgetting the bugs throughout his kit, or the fact it actually took there being a bug to make him truly strong (still wasn't broken tbh), there is no situation where he is the optimal choice. His kit isn't designed for carrying, and neither is he safe. He CAN carry, and CAN snowball, but it takes far more for him than any other juggernaut, and really it takes 1 tricking him or smurfing to make him viable. Added to this he lacks AP Fighter items to enable him to succeed in his role so has to build mage instead. There's always a better option.
: > I don't think it's so much the boards HATE adcs, it's that they hate the amount of time Riot spend trying to "fix" them. They were the ones who asked for this to begin with. Some things never change. Some players will always lose it when fighting against ADC + support.
> [{quoted}](name=Leaf on Bush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2lOpt8s4,comment-id=001a0000,timestamp=2019-01-05T06:32:00.640+0000) > > They were the ones who asked for this to begin with. Some things never change. Some players will always lose it when fighting against ADC + support. There's a difference between asking for something and getting something else. People asked for ADC's not to be the be all and end all of League. The only reason it seems Riot have "fixed" that at the moment is because most games only last 25 minutes. Get an ADC to full build and they'll still be as strong as they were before. It's like asking for a house and watching the builder build one every couple of months that has holes in the walls, windows missing, and half a roof. Is it a house? Parts of it are, but that's really not the same thing...
Elf0491 (NA)
: I very much disagree with the idea that AP fighters are missing itemization. I agree that there aren't many AP items that are comparable to the 4 AD items you mentioned, but that is a far cry from AP fighters having sub par item choices. For instance, they can build: Abyssal Mask Banshee's Veil Hextech Protobelt Iceborn Gauntlet Liandry's Torment Rod of Ages Rylai's Crystal Scepter Zhonya's Hourglass All of these items give a mix of offensive mage stats (AP and/or CDR), as well as defensive stats (Hp, AR, MR). You also have nice active and passive abilities, ranging from extra damage, to slows, to Zhonya's, which more than makes up for the fact that Sterak's is an AD item. Plus, you have several more niche items (Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End come to mind) as well as being able to build most other strict defensive items and purely offensive AP items should the situation arise. I really think this is more a problem with Diana and not the class of AP fighters as a whole.
> [{quoted}](name=Elf0491,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6P6EzAft,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-05T00:02:48.289+0000) > > I very much disagree with the idea that AP fighters are missing itemization. I agree that there aren't many AP items that are comparable to the 4 AD items you mentioned, but that is a far cry from AP fighters having sub par item choices. For instance, they can build: > As I mentioned, AP fighter lack items that naturally scale and reward building tanky stats. You can say there aren't many that a "comparable" to the one I mentioned, but those ARE the AD Fighter items and there aren't ANY taht are comparable. Lacking any that give passive scaling and scaling through tanky stats is effectively the same thing as saying they don't have any. Still I'll go through your list for you. > Abyssal Mask > Well straight off this is a tank item. 15% increased magic damage isn't much when it gives 0AP. It's an item to boost high base damage, and gives little benefit to champions that need both AP and tanky stats... like AP fighters. > Banshee's Veil > This is a mage item. Yes it can be built by an AP fighter quite viably, but it gives nothing of the passive scaling or scaling through tanky stats that Fighter items are meant to do. > Hextech Protobelt > This is an AP assassin item. Again it can, and regularly is, built on mages, but as above lacks any form of scaling/rewards through taking tanky stats to make it a fighter item. > Iceborn Gauntlet > .... well that's AD for a start. Secondly its for tanks. I know you're going to say "but Viktor takes it!". Yes he does... TANK viktor in the top lane, and much like Ez he is ranged and can use the slow to aid kiting. > Liandry's Torment > Mage item, but not JUST any mages. DoT mages. I suppose Elise might build it at some point, but not likely. You'd have to ask an Elise main if they feel this is comparable to Titanic on Irelia. I'm guessing not xD > Rod of Ages > This is the closest we've got I'll agree, and it's a common rush for Diana mains. It gives something akin to passive scaling over 8 minutes. Sadly it still doesn't reward building further tanky stats, and is no good for any other AP fighter. Still, the closest yet. > Rylai's Crystal Scepter > Again this is a mage item. A very good mage item mind, but still not useful on AP fighters. Also lacks the whole scaling thing... > Zhonya's Hourglass > Saying Zonyas is a fighter item is like saying GA is. Anyone AP who isn't a tank benefits from this one, and again, doesn't scaling passively or give rewards/scaling for building tank. > All of these items give a mix of offensive mage stats (AP and/or CDR), as well as defensive stats (Hp, AR, MR). You also have nice active and passive abilities, ranging from extra damage, to slows, to Zhonya's, which more than makes up for the fact that Sterak's is an AD item. Plus, you have several more niche items (Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End come to mind) as well as being able to build most other strict defensive items and purely offensive AP items should the situation arise. I really think this is more a problem with Diana and not the class of AP fighters as a whole. > "All of these give a mix of offensive mage stats" and there we have the issue. AP assassins build: Mage items. AP Carries build: Mage items. AP Fighters build: Mage items. Even saying that Nashors tooth and Witts end are "AP Fighter items" is wrong as again they fail to fulfill the basic need of a Fighter: Scaling through tanky stats. It's the reason why every fighter that has a choice between AP and AD opt for AD. Irelia scales MUCH better from AP than AD, as does Jax and Shyvana, yet the inherent advantages of building as an AD fighter are far larger than building as an AP one. You've listed a load of mage items, and a couple of tank items, and even called them mage items, without first considering whether they fit the requirements to be fighter items. Fighter items enable you to scale through both damaging and tanky stats. They don't just GIVE tanky stats, but SCALING either through them or passively. Steraks Shield, Titanic on hit reward building HP by giving a larger shield and higher damage. Trinity Force, BC and Steraks give passive scaling in a way not even RoA, as the closest thing AP Fighters have, can contend with. It's the reason why the all those that are, or are capable of being AP fighters are not actually AP fighters. Diana and Elise are assassins, Irelia, Jax and Shyvana build AD, and Morde is a mage. So in effect you've proven quite well that there is nothing AP that fits the two very simple requirements of a Fighter item. Lots for Mages, a couple for assassins, and even some for ADC's that want to build that way (Kai'sa, Kog'maw), but for actual AP fighters, the best you could come up with was RoA. All of this being said, I would like you to think up items that are original that could fit those criteria. It's really not easy but you might have better luck than me. :) -- DW --
: Bilgewater getting no love {{item:3070}}
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Decided,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=IMh6FI2N,comment-id=0034,timestamp=2019-01-03T18:17:17.607+0000) > > Bilgewater getting no love {{item:3070}} At least you remembered that one. The Void is missing entirely xD
nonstart (NA)
: Why does everyone hate adc on these boards
I don't think it's so much the boards HATE adcs, it's that they hate the amount of time Riot spend trying to "fix" them. When you consider how long it took for Malz to get a viable keystone (Arey is the best of a bad lot, and is designed for supports! DH has finally come though xD), morde to get a look in for a rework (spent years being less that 1% playrate until a BUG made him finally decent), or even that AP fighters in general still lack actual AP fighter items (we're still waiting... :(), you'll come to understand it isn't ADC's people hate, it's the fact that they are taking priority over every other champion type in the game and Riot don't seem to be any closer to "fixing" them. Hell Diana has had bugs with 3 out of 5 of her abilities for over a year and Riot have yet to fix them xD
: (Going to answer here as I am more into Diana than into AP divers items) I don’t know how to feel when reading this... The play style I prefer definitely is assassin,and your changes would literally kill it (with the removal of a lot of ap overall) I would like this Diana version to exist, while still having the current one. Even if she has her flaws, she is imho one of the most fun champion in the game. She doesn’t need to belong to one class, and currently Diana has many iterations. Assassin, on hit and bruiser all coexist Her receiving some work would be great, but she is in such a niche and interesting position right now that it would be a waste to rework her into this. (Nice work done tho !!)
> [{quoted}](name=MTFN Azor ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K6qpLOB3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-04T22:06:56.698+0000) > > (Going to answer here as I am more into Diana than into AP divers items) > Hey! Thanks for the response > I don’t know how to feel when reading this... > Hopefully intrigued xD > The play style I prefer definitely is assassin,and your changes would literally kill it (with the removal of a lot of ap overall) > I would like this Diana version to exist, while still having the current one. Even if she has her flaws, she is imho one of the most fun champion in the game. She doesn’t need to belong to one class, and currently Diana has many iterations. Assassin, on hit and bruiser all coexist > On the contrary the idea of the changes was to allow both options to be viable. 1 shot Diana has been around for so long she couldn't and SHOULDN'T be killed. The Q damage overall actually would benefit assassin Diana far more than the current version, and the R changes would allow to to actually have some escape when played right. Also note the passive is not a "every 3 AA's" anymore meaning an assassin build would benefit from this far more than they currently are able to. > Her receiving some work would be great, but she is in such a niche and interesting position right now that it would be a waste to rework her into this. > The idea is to offer examples of the types of things that could be changed to allow her to be an AP fighter. I'd really like to hear some alternatives though! These are just my musings, no doubt many others have alternatives that are just as, if not more viable :) > (Nice work done tho !!) > Thanks, but it wasn't me who wrote it, I just thought it should be posted on the boards too xD
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Deanna (EUW)
: I have noticed every diana question being ignored since like past 10-20 quick gameplay thoughts. I think if he wanted to reply , he would do it immediately, just like he was asked about sejuani changes and he replied a time frame. Since he doesnt have a time frame or something new to reveal , he wont reply. I think your chances are higher if you post immediately after the thread is published, and if you dont get an answer soon after that, then i guess you are bing ignored. good luck
> [{quoted}](name=Deanna,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=EmjGouud,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-12-08T10:46:10.967+0000) > > I have noticed every diana question being ignored since like past 10-20 quick gameplay thoughts. I think if he wanted to reply , he would do it immediately, just like he was asked about sejuani changes and he replied a time frame. Since he doesnt have a time frame or something new to reveal , he wont reply. I think your chances are higher if you post immediately after the thread is published, and if you dont get an answer soon after that, then i guess you are bing ignored. > good luck Yeah I figured I'd get ignored. I posted that on page 1, so I couldn't have really been much sooner tbh. It was the same with Malz a few months ago: one guy posted for 3 months on every single one in the first 5 pages. Everytime he got ignored. I just wanted to see if anything had changed from Meddler being promoted. Apparently not.
Meddler (NA)
: Yeah, Lux's E is one of the abilities we're trying it on. We've got a list of around 25 champs we're testing it for right now. Assuming it goes as expected easy enough to add to anyone we miss in 9.2 as well.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=EmjGouud,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2018-12-07T16:56:09.893+0000) > > Yeah, Lux's E is one of the abilities we're trying it on. We've got a list of around 25 champs we're testing it for right now. Assuming it goes as expected easy enough to add to anyone we miss in 9.2 as well. Is Diana among those?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 7
Meddler, any plans for Diana? She has bugs on 3 out of 5 of her abilities and no core itemization except "something AP". Any attention planned?
Paroe (NA)
: Lets give malzahar some buffs in exchange for a different ultimate that befits a battlemage.
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8g4dVEEJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-07T02:45:21.961+0000) > > Malzahar doesnt... Really hurt, and is easily out pushed by almost everyone. This change is meant to work with his intended itemization - Rylais and Liandries - and give his ultimate more ability to be an outplay tool. > > W: **_ Voidlings gain 50 movement speed while in a void zone_** > E: > ACTIVE: Malzahar infects the target enemy's mind, dealing them magic damage every half second over 4 seconds, _**increasing by 1% per 10AP to enemies who are under crowd control effects.**_ Damaging a target with Call of the Void Call of the Void or Nether Grasp Nether Grasp will refresh the duration of Malefic Visions. > If the target dies during this time, they pass Malefic Visions onto the closest enemy, refreshing the duration and restoring 2% of Malzahar's maximum mana. > > > > R: Malzahar glares at a targeted enemy, drawing the target to him over 1 second and creating a void zone around him and his target for 5 seconds. > While in the void zone, enemies are silenced, take 5%+1% per 100AP of their maximum health as magical damage, and take 1% per 10AP increased damage from malzahar and his minions. > If an enemy champion leaves the zone they take 200/250/300+0.8AP magic damage and are grounded for 3 seconds. > > ____________________________ > Bolded an italics are additions to an existing skill. The new ultimate is completely different. Voidlings should have increased movement speed towards those targeted by malefic visions, not just from his ult. Their early damage is bad, and their range is also poor, but all this could be buffed and they would still be useless for the most part as they die in a split second to and champion damage. Therefore the main thing to fix them would be to make them tankier, not make them gain increased movement speed in a conditional space. The problem with Malzahar is that too much of his power is elsewhere in his kit. His passive is considered hugely powerful, yet many malz mains find it ineffective at best. His Ult take up a load more of his power because it effectively forces people to buy and item to counter it. What few people will accept, Riot being chief among these, is that for Malzahar to do his "job", he doesn't NEED a 2.5 second suppression. It isn't "core" to his lore, nor is it more than an outdated ability that causes problems they have continuously compounded. The answer to how to balance Malz while keeping his role as a counter to hypermobile hypercarries has always been changing his ult so he could have damage put back into the rest of his kit. Hard CC could easily be added elsewhere, which wouldn't require a specific item buy and would free up huge amounts of power to be put back into his voidlings. Sadly my friend there are more than 100 suggested reworks for Malzahar, many of them viable with appropriate balancing, that Riot simply will not use, because unlike Irelia and Akali, he won't ever be that "flashy", and unlike Morde and Aatrox he is never below a 1% play rate. In short Malzahar is both too popular and not popular enough, while also not being flashy enough, to make it worth Riot's time to work on. He's been out since June 2010 and got his first chroma yesterday, while Kai'sa has been out less than a year and has 2. If you like Malzahar for the champion he is currently then stay with him, but never hope for him to change because Riot aren't interested. Don't believe me? Try asking in Dev corner. One guy asked about possible changes to Malz W for 3 months, every Dev Corner post, always in the first 5 pages. Not one response. Just got ignored and passed over. That's Malz. Sorry.
macspam (NA)
: malzahar is easily outpushed by anyone? beg your pardon? after he gets lost chapter you walk too close to him and he E + Q you for over a third of your health .... do this twice and then he press R .... kill all the while he can just spam his spells on the wave to perma push. Pushing the wave is what malzahar does , and he does it well
> [{quoted}](name=macspam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8g4dVEEJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-07T05:35:18.741+0000) > > malzahar is easily outpushed by anyone? beg your pardon? after he gets lost chapter you walk too close to him and he E + Q you for over a third of your health .... do this twice and then he press R .... kill > > all the while he can just spam his spells on the wave to perma push. Pushing the wave is what malzahar does , and he does it well Malzahar's waveclear is dependent on his voidlings, and they die in a second. Using E and Q on an enemy is therefore not mana efficient. Malzahar's will attempt to his Q on you AND the wave, and will want malefic visions to ping onto the opponent from the wave (preferably the last minion in the wave). LC doesn't give him a a massive amount of mana sustain, and a tear stacked to 200 gives more. LC is good because it gives AP, CDR, mana AND it's passive while also building into a strong item.
: I'd make more sense to just fall back on a design that they already know works... like the pre-reworked version of the champion.
> [{quoted}](name=deadlychuck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8g4dVEEJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-07T07:30:31.616+0000) > > I'd make more sense to just fall back on a design that they already know works... like the pre-reworked version of the champion. This won't happen, no matter how much sense it makes or how much people want it.
Kazekiba (NA)
: What fighter update? They dont do class overhauls anymore. It doesn't sell any when they could just remake one champion at a time. Otherwise Aatrox would've been kept more in tact and visually the same instead of the whatever they did for the VGU
> [{quoted}](name=Kazekiba,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=bEE1jbqr,comment-id=00430000,timestamp=2018-12-05T21:05:51.351+0000) > > What fighter update? > They dont do class overhauls anymore. It doesn't sell any when they could just remake one champion at a time. Otherwise Aatrox would've been kept more in tact and visually the same instead of the whatever they did for the VGU They promised a fighter update which was to include new items like spear of shojin and atmas alongside the Aatrox rework, however as they could not produce a balanced set of new items they said they would postpone it. As they are now looking at doing the Spear and Atmas in early S9 I just assumed they would continue to call it the "fighter update". If not then I apologize, though would still like to know if they plan on doing anything for the AP fighters who has long been neglected.
: > [{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=rAB49oPR,comment-id=0001000300000000,timestamp=2018-12-05T19:52:34.161+0000) > > Good to know, I asked because I was browsing the skinline and except Elise all of them were strictly humanoids. well, there's also kennen
> [{quoted}](name=Carnival Knights,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=rAB49oPR,comment-id=00010003000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-05T20:40:28.348+0000) > > well, there's also kennen And Evelynn
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 5
Hi Meddler, Just a quick one about Diana. With her lack of core itemization options, numerous bugs, and somewhat outdated kit do you plans to address her during the fighter update? She is after all meant to be a fighter and wouldn't need a complete overhaul, but given the mobility and core items afforded her AD Diver counterparts, don't you feel she deserves some love?
Ifneth (NA)
: Her Q has been like that since she was released—and had AOE and even bonus minion damage—and her midlane has fluctuated from a 34% winrate to meta to missing entirely. It wasn’t her maximum Q damage to champions that made her strong—it was having lane priority from Level 1 against every midlaner in the game. Her waveclear is not what it used to be. If it were, then she would be at the top of the meta again, waveclearing and roaming bot. The pros and challengers would be picking her every game. Actually, Riot has worked to enable jungle mages, like Zyra and Morgana. They’re niche play styles like AD Kennen, but they exist. Malzahar was removed from the jungle because he could flash-ult from fog to instantly suppress you.
> [{quoted}](name=Ifneth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fBbNRnXA,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-04T00:39:23.935+0000) > > Her Q has been like that since she was released—and had AOE and even bonus minion damage—and her midlane has fluctuated from a 34% winrate to meta to missing entirely. It wasn’t her maximum Q damage to champions that made her strong—it was having lane priority from Level 1 against every midlaner in the game. > Again saying "people aren't abusing this" and saying "It's not abusable" are not the same thing. She has not only got wave control from level 1, but it's effectively free as she regens a lot of the mana she has used to clear. Can she one shot the entire wave level 1? No. Can she clear it as fast as she used to? Yes. Reason? When they removed the splash damage from her Q, they also buffed its damage! They also buffed her E damage, lowered her mana costs, lowered her CDs. She HAS got priority from level 1 xD > Her waveclear is not what it used to be. If it were, then she would be at the top of the meta again, waveclearing and roaming bot. The pros and challengers would be picking her every game. > I have little doubt she will be when the pro season starts up again. > Actually, Riot has worked to enable jungle mages, like Zyra and Morgana. They’re niche play styles like AD Kennen, but they exist. Malzahar was removed from the jungle because he could flash-ult from fog to instantly suppress you. > Ummmm... Ok show me a post from riot about changes they have made to make MORGANA AND ZYRA viable in the jungle.... GL Malzahar was removed from the jungle because of WHAT? They left him his ult, even made it stronger. The reason they removed him was his Level 3 drake pressure (Something several other junglers were able to do). I mean if you're gunna just make stuff up then this conversation is pointless...
Ifneth (NA)
: If it were broken, then she would be rated higher than Tier 3 in the jungle and picked at all in midlane right now. She must land all five rocks, each of which is a body-blocked single-target skillshot, and play around a worked ground mechanic to achieve those numbers. Mages have generally lacked the early DPS and sustain to clear the jungle with enough health left over to contest or gank. Taliyah’s Q lets her do that.
> [{quoted}](name=Ifneth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fBbNRnXA,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T18:28:33.353+0000) > > If it were broken, then she would be rated higher than Tier 3 in the jungle and picked at all in midlane right now. She must land all five rocks, each of which is a body-blocked single-target skillshot, and play around a worked ground mechanic to achieve those numbers. > > Mages have generally lacked the early DPS and sustain to clear the jungle with enough health left over to contest or gank. Taliyah’s Q lets her do that. A LOT of things in league take time to come into the Meta, that doesn't change the fact they were already broken, it just meant not enough people had started abusing it yet xD Yes she must land all 5 rocks, which was always the case, and her jungle clear power has provided for a laning clear that not only exceeds what she used to be able to do but also now costs less mana and can be done more often. I didn't say she was a skilless champion, only that she was actually stupidly strong in midlane right now. Again, other mages have been viable in jungle in the past and Riot have always nerfed them. In Malzahar's case they actually reworked him with the sole intention of removing him from jungle, and then even nerfed him further to prevent any re-occurrence, then changed him again to prevent him being viable anywhere but midlane. That's why it is strange they allowed/promoted such a change in Taliyah: To my knowledge this is the first time they have done this for a mage.
Ifneth (NA)
: Yeah, her ignite level 3 with Electrocute or Dark Harvest can kill you. However, I will mention that her Q just doesn’t have the numbers to 100-0 in 2 rotations. Even at Rank 1, 70 + 45% AP with 50% DR on subsequent hits is 70 + 45% AP + 140 + 90% AP = 210 + 135% AP. Even if she lands all five rocks twice, it deals not even half of a champion’s base health pre-mitigation. She needs a few items for Q to really become scary, either through raw AP or on-spell-hit building. {{item:3285}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3285}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3089}}
> [{quoted}](name=Ifneth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fBbNRnXA,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-12-03T16:26:30.330+0000) > > Yeah, her ignite level 3 with Electrocute or Dark Harvest can kill you. However, I will mention that her Q just doesn’t have the numbers to 100-0 in 2 rotations. Even at Rank 1, 70 + 45% AP with 50% DR on subsequent hits is 70 + 45% AP + 140 + 90% AP = 210 + 135% AP. > > Even if she lands all five rocks twice, it deals not even half of a champion’s base health pre-mitigation. She needs a few items for Q to really become scary, either through raw AP or on-spell-hit building. > > {{item:3285}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3151}} > > {{item:3285}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3089}} Yeah you're right, 210+135% AP at level 1 isn't broken at all on a 7 second CD for 50 mana with a mana regen of 15.25 every 5 seconds with a Dorans ring xD Especially with her higher than normal AD. Sorry buddy but Riot have buffed her so much that the second people start playing her mid again Riot will have to nerf her again. Tbh they need to pick a position for her and stick to it. No other mage is allowed to play jungle, let alone balanced around it, and Malzahar was even reworked to prevent it, so I'm not sure why they are trying to encourage it with her.
Ifneth (NA)
: Taliyah Still Missing From Midlane
Sorry but I played against one a week or so ago that 100-0 me at level 3 in one combo. Yes it took ignite and electrocute, but tbh that's still stupid damage for what is essentially a mage with a spam damage well that chunks you 1/2 your hp, a knockup and an AOE. You can say "well avoid her knockup" but tbh it only takes once and you're dead, and even without the full combo her Q is enough to kill you in just 2 rotations xD Personally I think they've buffed her ability to jungle so much she's incredibly strong mid now.
Ourboros (EUW)
: The Problems of Itempaths
Play Diana. "Anything AP" isn't really a sign of Riot ensuring Core Itemization. Every other champion group in League has a Core build path except AP Fighters, and with the fighter's being the focus of Riot what have they done? "Let's look at AD."
: Is it hard to get out of silver or am I just bad?
Concentrate on a few scaling champions. Getting out of silver isn't about hard carrying every game, in fact at that elo its a very easy way to lose. Instead learn a champion that CAN carry, but is also useful to the team. Took examples of this are control mages. I claimed from B1 to G5 in less than 150 games playing Malz. Yes I got autofilled, yes I got trolls (so many trolls....) but in the end I came away with over 60% winrate by just being able to play a safe scaling carry :)
: Way to doctor data. Your poll options are jaded and doctored to point to one thing. You need more options on the other side of "Revert" 4: No, but they are nerfing it wrong. They are hitting it with too many nerf bats at once. They needed to test it more on the PBE with things like lower HP threshold but the higher damage. Or lower damage but a higher threshold. Riot does everything halfass.
> [{quoted}](name=XXXMurderPenguin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tA8i1d3u,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-29T19:53:37.692+0000) > > Way to doctor data. > > Your poll options are jaded and doctored to point to one thing. > > You need more options on the other side of "Revert" > > 4: No, but they are nerfing it wrong. > > They are hitting it with too many nerf bats at once. > > They needed to test it more on the PBE with things like lower HP threshold but the higher damage. Or lower damage but a higher threshold. > > Riot does everything halfass. Sorry, I wasn't aiming at "doctoring" anything. I'd add this as an option if I could, but sadly the edit function does not allow for this :S
: This nerf is definitely needed, because the rune is currently off the charts and out of control. Runes should supplement your playstyle, not be the dominant factor in whether you win or not against your enemies.
> [{quoted}](name=Oleandervine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tA8i1d3u,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-29T19:49:20.648+0000) > > This nerf is definitely needed, because the rune is currently off the charts and out of control. Runes should supplement your playstyle, not be the dominant factor in whether you win or not against your enemies. Absolutely agree, it is currently very strong of far too many champions, however is that due to the ease in which it can be stacked, or the lack of any requirement for AD and AP to benefit from it. When in it's second "attempt" Riot had it doing a very low base damage, but gave scaling for AD and AP per proc. Surely this would be a better way to ensure that those carries it was designed for would continue to benefit while those that are abusing it's lack of required scaling would lose out (for example Illaoi can proc it with ease regularly and has no need to build AD beyond the norm, while if it gave only extra AD and AP scaling on proc it would be practically useless on her).
mack9112 (NA)
: With the nerf it will take 24 stacks to deal same base damage as an electrocute proc (current 20) I think the rune has a place in the game as a late game scaling rune but needs to gave a weak early game as a trade off.
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tA8i1d3u,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-29T18:35:52.285+0000) > > With the nerf it will take 24 stacks to deal same base damage as an electrocute proc (current 20) > > I think the rune has a place in the game as a late game scaling rune but needs to gave a weak early game as a trade off. I agree, it's place is definately for a more scaling build champion, but therefore also requires the ability to be stacked and a reward for doing so. 24 stacks to just equal the base damage of electrocute, plus the lesser AD and AP scaling makes it far less viable for those that require it as a damaging keystone for carries, and far more potent on those that can continuously proc it for damage free of the requirement of AP and AD, such as juggernauts, tanks, and other toplaners, rather than carries like mages, adc's and assassins. Do you feel this is the right direction for the rune?
Hotarµ (NA)
: The only reason people like the new Dark Harvest is because it takes almost nothing to proc and scales too well (with both stacks + stat scaling) at the moment. Even if they nerfed it, some people are going to take it because it's just a free, easy way to get damage. It's true that Conqueror/Tempo/PTA and some others don't take much to use, but Dark Harvest just doesn't offer enough to actually warrant being in the game in my opinion.
> [{quoted}](name=Hotarµ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tA8i1d3u,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-29T18:38:20.391+0000) > > The only reason people like the new Dark Harvest is because it takes almost nothing to proc and scales too well (with both stacks + stat scaling) at the moment. Even if they nerfed it, some people are going to take it because it's just a free, easy way to get damage. It's true that Conqueror/Tempo/PTA and some others don't take much to use, but Dark Harvest just doesn't offer enough to actually warrant being in the game in my opinion. True, but isn't it something that has been required for some champions? Malzahar has been without a viable keystone for over a year, forced to rely on a support rune that he only gains 1/2 benefit from and grants him about 1300 damage in an average game, while DH is viable on him for up to 4k in the same timeframe. Surely it's better to have a rune like conqueror that is useful on a wide range of champions, then a few champion forced to take runes that are bad on them just because it's the best of a bad lot? Don't get me wrong I dislike the whole base damage for procs thing anyway, and believe it should be purely done on scaling to promote building damage items to get the extra damage, but it seems Riot are going the other way.
Rioter Comments
: There is a difference between actually helping people with their debts and increasing it while claiming to be helping them though.
> [{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awdEwqUh,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-11-25T20:53:21.780+0000) > > There is a difference between actually helping people with their debts and increasing it while claiming to be helping them though. Agreed! But I do not, nor have I EVER worked for or as a debt collector. In short, any costs or charges by the time my team got hold of it did not increase at that point. We didn't charge for our work as our remit was not as a debt collector but as a support centre, in much the same way you don't get charged for calling customer services or complaints, you don't get charged by in house debt support. Every bank, building society, energy company (and most companies in general) in the UK have one of these. But yes Beacon, I agree completely. Riot make mistakes, and compound those mistakes. They often do not listen when they should, listen when they shouldn't, and fail to communicate very well with their customers either way. This however is more about the gaming industries lack of communication and their lack of feeling they NEED to provide customer service like EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY rather than an individual member or team. The balancing team have one of the hardest jobs in a gaming company, and to say they fail and should get the sack when they are, in truth, just trying to balance the storm of changes that are likely decided far higher up the chain is not only unfair, is pure idiocy. So they can't balance EVERYTHING. That's why we have METAS. So they get things wrong sometimes. That's because every change will have a domino effect on the rest of the game. Yes they ignore a lot of champions, but who tells them which champions to work on?
: how do you record "preventing" suicide or mental health issues?
> [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awdEwqUh,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2018-11-25T22:18:26.985+0000) > > how do you record "preventing" suicide or mental health issues? It was a statistic of the likelihood of these things given the circumstance. The UK has a statistics authority and several government and non-government bodies designed to analyse data such as this to improve the health and well being of the people. I believe this was done by the NHS or FCA, though it could have been done by a myriad of others. This data can then be converted and used in segments to give average likelihoods. In this case, that of the 3 million people per year that we spoke to.
: If I had a job...
Wow what a statement. If you had a job, that you did very well, but was a role that was unpopular, misunderstood, or was unable to please everyone of your customers, should you REALLY lose that job? Consider a campaign I worked on a few years back, helping vulnerable customers who were in debt resolve their arrears. About 35% of them thought their debt should be written off entirely because they were disabled, in financial difficulty, old or young. This was not all small or large debts, but ranged anywhere between £150 and £15,000, though most of these were closer to the £15,000 mark. Some of those 35% would have told you my agents, my team, my department, hell even my COMPANY we the devil incarnate, claiming we were picking on those who were vulnerable. They would shout, swear, and threaten people who were on the phone simply trying to help them, because their expectations were that they were fundamentally more in need, more deserving, more important that anyone else, and would shout across social media, to the papers and anyone else that might listen about how "horrible" we were. In truth we aided 92% of people to resolve their debts within 1-5 years. We kept credit scores intact for over 3 million people across the uk, statistically prevented more than 1,200,00 mental health issues that could have been caused by financial stress, and even prevented up to 5,000 suicides. These are the statistic that I told my staff and every word of it true. But that didn't stop people like you telling them they deserved to be fired or they should be ashamed of themselves. Riots customer service is terrible, not going to pretend otherwise having worked over a decade in customer service management, BUT claiming that someone is bad at their job or should be fired because the boards, reddit, or even some streamers and pro's don't like what their job entails or the results their TESTING have, all the while forgetting those very people are working hard to try and make this game you enjoy BETTER, is as bad as the 20 year old with £15,000 debt from bad life choices telling my agent that she should be ashamed of herself for what she does for a living. True story, and is what lead to those previously mentioned statistics being found out: I paid her to search for them. Get over your own self importance, and stop judging those that are only doing their jobs just because you don't like the company they work for. --Loki--
KazKaz (OCE)
: Mages are the most broken class in League. Prove me wrong.
Juggernauts: 1) They're slow until the build one of the 3 items that give them more speed than anyone else 2) They're base stats mean they really don't have to build anything tanky to be.... tanky 3) They all have CC 4) They have an item to counter anyone 5) They all get free sustain 6) They all get to build 1 damage item and still out damage everyone on their team.
: We need Death Fire Touch back. Ability damage on Champions affected by CC causes them to burn for 3s for Flat + 5% AD + 3% AP per second. 15s CD
> [{quoted}](name=XXXMurderPenguin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TGgAOugR,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-11-21T21:08:08.154+0000) > > We need Death Fire Touch back. > > Ability damage on Champions affected by CC causes them to burn for 3s for Flat + 5% AD + 3% AP per second. 15s CD As long as the "cc" is all forms including silence. Think of Malz...
: # D E A T H F I R E T O U C H # E # A # T # H # F # I # R # E # T # O # U # C # H
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TGgAOugR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-21T07:19:26.394+0000) > > # D E A T H F I R E T O U C H > # E > # A > # T > # H > # F > # I > # R > # E > # T > # O > # U > # C > # H LOL. Can't say i disagree, but LOVE the delivery xD
VÏÏ (NA)
: Riot im sorry i forgot to ban akali , please let me farm in laning phase.....
Tip 1: Play Malz. Reason: He destroys her with little/no effort Tip 2: Play Diana. Reason: Same as Tip 1 Tip 3: Play Galio. Reason: Same as Tip 1 & 2 Tip 4: Play Lissandra with aftershock. Reason: Same as Tip 1, 2 & 3 Tip 5: Play anything with burst, CC, AOE or a combination of those 3. Reason: Work it out.... Also Aatrox counters the hell outta her....
DrDubb (NA)
: Xerath NEEDS a new passive too
Xerath's passive is his mana sustain... Lissandra is a short range control mage while Xerath is an artillery mage. So lets consider for a moment they DID give Xerath a new passive, say when he kills someone they explode with energy like he does when he dies. Now you have no mana sustain, your abilities damage gets nerfed to compensate, and you now have LESS tools to kill people meaning you have LESS opportunity to use your passive making you on the whole far less powerful. All I'm going to say is be careful what you wish for. Look at what they did to Malzahar in 2016 and 2017. Do you REALLY want them changing Xerath?
: Poll- Old runes/masteries or Runes Reforged?
As a Malz main I've REALLY missed DFT, but I have to say with the introduction of DH Malz finally has a viable keystone, so runes-reforged.
: Font of Life is Still Underpowered
They should just let the person doing the slow benefit from the healing. Would be far more viable.
: Is it fun on the enemy Leblanc or Akali?
> [{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vFa0pp90,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-22T03:29:38.874+0000) > > Is it fun on the enemy Leblanc or Akali? Simple answer, yes. DH is better on champions that can't utilize electrocute's 25 second CD very consistently. Both Akali and LB have no issue doing this.
Rioter Comments
Secrios (EUW)
: Better Targeted Attack System
Its just another way riot ensure adc's require little skill. After-all right clicking is hard enough, but having to do it repeatedly while moving the mouse between two points... that's purely insane levels of skill
: My thing is this essentially destroys Taliyah jungle as well as mid... I thought they were trying to encourage mages jungle? :/
> [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PLE52qBw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-19T00:40:56.872+0000) > > My thing is this essentially destroys Taliyah jungle as well as mid... I thought they were trying to encourage mages jungle? :/ Wow when did you buy THAT rubbish? They've gone out of their way for 2 years to force mages out of the jungle. Taliyah has had the longest run since Malzahar, and look at what they did to HIM.
Chiken138 (EUW)
: Instead of nerfing Lucian and kaisa
Ummm....Kai'sa is getting buffed anyway. Have you SEEN the new guinsoos passive....
: That video was questionable, yeah..
> [{quoted}](name=YoRHá A2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7i90sUuj,comment-id=001c0000,timestamp=2018-11-18T20:20:48.854+0000) > > That video was questionable, yeah.. It was pure idiocy. Not only does it rub the mains of those champions noses in the fact Riot care nothing for them (even in the brief description of all the league champions they got Diana wrong xD) but it also advertises the fact riot will do nothing to prevent trolling, even going so far as encouraging people to do it! I'm all for people trying something new in preseason, hell I've decided to pick up Diana again, but to explicitly encourage troll picks and builds is just stupid. I literally can't play ranked or normals now without getting trolled every game under the excuses of "its preseason." and "Riot said we could". I've taken to Aram as even AI games teammates Botting (which again little seems to get done about).
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DW Diana

Level 220 (NA)
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