Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 19
OOOOOO talking about Ryze again. The week before it was Irelia, the week before that it was Akali, the week before that it was Lux and Ryze. It's good to know you are consistent, Meddler. Thanks for showing an active interest in all of your champions every single week. Good job Meddler. I look forward to another Developer post about Irelia, Akali, Lux, Ahri or another popular or new champion next week. You guys are doing such a great job ignoring your duties.
Rioter Comments
: Deathfall - LGBTQ Assassin Player (GOLD)
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 5
I would really like to have these few questions answered. 1) Why does it feel like Riot Game Developers don't know what to do with top lane? The lane functions that if the champion gets even a little ahead, they are unbeatable. There is also the problem that there are some champions who don't belong in the lane and are making it harder for other champions to play in it (ranged champions). To combat the overwhelming power and lane presence of other champions, Riot you buff and rework underwhelming champions in an attempt to make them a presence in the lane again (Kench, Illaoi, Garen, Darius, and so many others.) but the problem is Developers are not nerfing and reworking the right champions who are actually causing the problem for the lane. I mean, it's really not fun to play top lane. I don't see anyone saying they love top lane. If the enemy top laner gets ahead, then it's almost always game over for the other player. The way most toplane champions are functioning now is that there is almost no chance to catch up against an opponent with more items, a higher level, incessant JG ganks, and much more. 2) Point blank, mages like Brand, Zyra, and other make it hard for other champion to be successful. They can one shot a player by just about doing nothing even at level 2. What are Riot Game Developers doing to lessen the burden of some champions carrying the lane because of their champions and not because they have skill? Instead of reworking tank itemization in bot lane and tanky supports, why not nerf the underlying problems liek Brand, Karma, and Zyra?
Jikker (NA)
: My verdict on updated Ezreal
Too bad popular champions get prioritized work. {{champion:43}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:72}} all received horrible reworks or vgu that Riot isn't addressing in any shape or form
: Riot Games growing desperate for viewers
When you ignore your playerbase and remain stubborn with your decisions, you lose players. Sorry but the companh deserved it. It's been getting out of hand a lot recently and they know it. Now players are getting upset with their campions being ignored for years. Eve got two skins this year. Rakhan and Xeyah got two skins this year and are probably slated for another. Jhin got three skins last year. The same champions got skins last year and this year. Players are just fed up with them. It took them how many years to give us a Heim skin? Eve got two skins this year. Jhin got three last year. Rakhan and Xeyah got two this year. They don't care about all 140 plus champions.
: I feel bad for all of you that still believe Riot can unfuck their game at this point
The Developers decided to update the game a few years ago and they stop doing it. The game has over 140 champions with only 30 of them being viable, updated and up to date. It's very alarming for Developers to continue adding new champions into the game when they know there are so many waiting for an acthal VGU. Adding new champions is not going to make the game better. It is work that is going to be taken away from someone else and content that another champion is going to wait uears to get. Popular champions, VGU completed champions, and new champions get more skins frequently, get more reworks and buffs, and get more attention than older ones woth noticeable problems. It's a problem.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 10
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VVQiBH5b-new-karma-rework-not-addressing-any-issues-meddler Meddler, if the Karma rework is not addressing a single of her massive problems, why are you even bothering with her? It was said her direction and identity is not being touched. It was said that her art is not being touched. It was said her theme is not being touched. Finally, her gameplay is hardly being touched. 1. No new passive. 2. Most likely no Shield Bomb. 3. No new Q or Mantra Q. 4. W and Mantra W is still going to have the same problems the previous one had. Nothing specific and gives her no direction, but can be abused in another role. 5. No fans and no art updates to actually finish the garbage you gave us. What are you accomplishing with Karma then? You value the opinions of new players that are the first ones to throw her away and insult people, but you refuse to listen to the actual playerbase that cares about this champion for the past five years. You created the division and you created the mess. I told you several years ago you were going to use time as an excuse to do nothing on this champion. You did it.
: You don't have to deal with Karma mains and fanbase, when you keep her weak for two seasons and her players already left to play other game or other champs. ---Just look at voting, every karma player supports what you wrote, but looks like there are 5players that have not forgotten karma--- Why they are doing it't quite obvious since originally she was the ultimate tacitical counter to picks like zed and yasuo, and then they cried at boards and since rito prefers action over tactics. It has gone to point where karma is totally being destroyed by ad mid picks, exactly opposite she was supposed to.
> [{quoted}](name=God of Dark Love,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VVQiBH5b,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-10T12:08:24.579+0000) > > You don't have to deal with Karma mains and fanbase, when you keep her weak for two seasons and her players already left to play other game or other champs. ---Just look at voting, every karma player supports what you wrote, but looks like there are 5players that have not forgotten karma--- Why they are doing it't quite obvious since originally she was the ultimate tacitical counter to picks like zed and yasuo, and then they cried at boards and since rito prefers action over tactics. It has gone to point where karma is totally being destroyed by ad mid picks, exactly opposite she was supposed to. That's what Meddler wants. He wants all of us to leave so he can say the relaunch was successful and they did a good job. That's how thjs Developer works. He twists words and situations that make himself and thr company look like they care. Clearly the past five years is evidence of that not being true.
: She was given a mini, half assed, "rework" a few years ago. Basically Riot butchered her and left her in the dirt. And continue to ignore the people who are passionate about her. Meanwhile they give Ryze a shit ton of new reworks and leave her in the dust. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
> [{quoted}](name=SnugglePuggle94,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VVQiBH5b,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2018-10-10T12:53:11.173+0000) > > She was given a mini, half assed, "rework" a few years ago. Basically Riot butchered her and left her in the dirt. And continue to ignore the people who are passionate about her. > > Meanwhile they give Ryze a shit ton of new reworks and leave her in the dust. > > {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} It was a full blown relaunch and the very first VGU. Until Morde Karma was the worst worked on champion in LoL. The past Development team refused to listen, removed almost everything players loved about Karma, and they haven't done anything for 5 years now to rectify mistakes. Meddler and Reaves have a lot of excuses though.
InTheory (EUW)
: I think it's about the latest re-iteration of her W that ended up being scrapped. But it meant that Riot was trying to change something about Karma that, as far as I understand OP, is not helping Karma in any regards and not the amount/style of change it requires to handle the mess of her previous update.
> [{quoted}](name=InTheory,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VVQiBH5b,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-10-10T11:40:54.050+0000) > > I think it's about the latest re-iteration of her W that ended up being scrapped. But it meant that Riot was trying to change something about Karma that, as far as I understand OP, is not helping Karma in any regards and not the amount/style of change it requires to handle the mess of her previous update. It's. Not. This doesn't gjve her a gameplay identity, improve her art, or make her thematic problems better. It's just another pathetic attempt to say they are working on her but continue to give us half arsed work. Please do not hold Riot NeuroCat responsible. She wanted to do more but Meddler refuses to budge on anything. Let's just talk about and work on champs like Ryze, Lud, Ezreal and Ahri.
Rexxiee (NA)
: Is riot REALLY ok with this?
Oo shocker. Both get a new skin and they are strong. It's nothing new.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Yeah, I'd agree old, old Karma (pre 2013) went deeper into fights, though even then not as deep as some champs. One of the issues we run into here is that the majority of people playing Karma at this point never played that original version of Karma. If we're making changes using that as guideline of what's desired we're then serving a small subset of the Karma player base ignoring feedback from a lot of others. Reverts on things like that can work a lot better when the change was more recent by contrast and the majority of the engaged audience have experience with the older version.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=AENqRo6N,comment-id=001c0000,timestamp=2018-10-03T16:22:21.897+0000) > > Yeah, I'd agree old, old Karma (pre 2013) went deeper into fights, though even then not as deep as some champs. One of the issues we run into here is that the majority of people playing Karma at this point never played that original version of Karma. If we're making changes using that as guideline of what's desired we're then serving a small subset of the Karma player base ignoring feedback from a lot of others. Reverts on things like that can work a lot better when the change was more recent by contrast and the majority of the engaged audience have experience with the older version. And again your fault. I told you threw years ago you were going to use time as an excuse to never work on her. Here we are, Meddler. Still making excuses and still not doing your job. Idiot.
: > [{quoted}](name=Deathfall,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jPANQ6mo,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T21:20:16.424+0000)I know you moron. Really? 'cause I'm legitimately confused. I came into this thread asking a question that I wasn't sure if you had considered, and the rest of the time have been telling you that I get your frustration and it's fine. I showed you those things because I thought you might have missed them, and might want to see them. I am NOT interested in changing your mind, nor in telling you your opinion is wrong. I AM interested in understanding your perspective, and in sharing my thoughts on the issue since it seemed like a potentially interesting conversation. But if we're at insults, then best of luck to you. I hope your next game of choice has a development team you prefer.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jPANQ6mo,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T21:26:48.871+0000) > > Really? 'cause I'm legitimately confused. I came into this thread asking a question that I wasn't sure if you had considered, and the rest of the time have been telling you that I get your frustration and it's fine. I showed you those things because I thought you might have missed them, and might want to see them. > > I am NOT interested in changing your mind, nor in telling you your opinion is wrong. I AM interested in understanding your perspective, and in sharing my thoughts on the issue since it seemed like a potentially interesting conversation. > > But if we're at insults, then best of luck to you. I hope your next game of choice has a development team you prefer. I've been here since season 2 and I have been belittled, harassed, told to go kill myself, that it is a waste of time to create threads about Karma because she is not popular enough. It's players like me who actually care about their champion that are getting things done. I don't need to explain my perspective to you or anyone else. I've been doing it for the past 5 years. The Developers write us off, the new players write us off and harass us, and no one seems to care. I'm not explaining my reasonings and I shouldn't have to. You clearly didn't care about anything other than coming into this thread and trying to make excuses and reasons as to why champions like Karma, Morde, Malz and Liss get no work done on them, but Ezreal gets a total of two art updates in the span of one year. Pulsefire had textures updated last year and it was updated again this year. Karma's skins and base model match zero of her splasharts, the models are rushed and terrible, and players who actually play and care about Karma don't like it. Let's work on champs like Ezreal or Ryze 7 times. I don't care. Go make excuses and try to understand other peoples' perspectives. You don't care about mine and you came in guns a blazing.
: > [{quoted}](name=Deathfall,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jPANQ6mo,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T20:53:24.809+0000)What's your excuse and reason going to be now? What reason, the same reasons she gets zero work done on her to correct mistakes, you gonna make now? I'm not actually making excuses, nor telling you your perspective is wrong. I totally get it. I'm just sharing another viewpoint, which is that the reason for the lack of work on Karma may have been the lack of a good *direction* for that work. New animations for a kit that needs changes isn't a productive use if those animations won't remain. That said, on the subject of walking/running animations, [this just-released Karma one might interest you.](https://twitter.com/RoryAlderton/status/1049369810214084610) You might also like [this topic](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/KaRmzNlN-clothesline-karma-mini-retrospective?comment=000f000000000000), which shows some Karma exploration that didn't quite land as desired, but indocates that work IS being done.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jPANQ6mo,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T21:02:09.858+0000) > > I'm not actually making excuses, nor telling you your perspective is wrong. I totally get it. I'm just sharing another viewpoint, which is that the reason for the lack of work on Karma may have been the lack of a good *direction* for that work. New animations for a kit that needs changes isn't a productive use if those animations won't remain. > > That said, on the subject of walking/running animations, [this just-released Karma one might interest you.](https://twitter.com/RoryAlderton/status/1049369810214084610) > > You might also like [this topic](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/KaRmzNlN-clothesline-karma-mini-retrospective?comment=000f000000000000), which shows some Karma exploration that didn't quite land as desired, but indocates that work IS being done. Walking and running animation is fine, but not that great. Model still is rushed and garbage. I know you moron. Only the W was changed. I talked with the Developer and Meddler wasnt allowing any time or resources to be allocated for what she wanted to do with Karma. She wanted to bring back her fans but couldn't, she wanted to fix a lot of other things but she couldn't. This is because of Meddler refusing to let go of his ignorance towards Karma and her mains. No matter what this Development team does it will always be half arsed and they will all use the same excuse, "its out of the scope of what I would like and can do." Meddler is the reason why. I dont need to be showed things I already know about and know why it will still be considered half arsed.
: > Harass me, down vote me, call me names, belittle me, tell me I am wrong. Do whatever you want to me but don't try to invalidate my post and thoughts... I'm not. I was asking a question that didn't have a wrong answer, really. I totally get the "just get someone on it and work until it's good" approach, and you're totally allowed to be frustrated to the point of leaving.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jPANQ6mo,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-10-08T20:43:16.649+0000) > > I'm not. I was asking a question that didn't have a wrong answer, really. I totally get the "just get someone on it and work until it's good" approach, and you're totally allowed to be frustrated to the point of leaving. I mean you really want to go there? {{champion:133}} {{champion:114}} Didn't need walking and running animations, but got it. {{champion:43}} Still doesn't have a running, walking, and shield casting animation. They know it but you know, bur Riot doesn't care. What's your excuse and reason going to be now? What reason, the same reasons she gets zero work done on her to correct mistakes, you gonna make now?
: >If Meddler and Reav3s cannot even be botherd to allow Developers the time, resources and manpower to work on champions that actually need it, what's the point on working on anything anymore? Honest question -- would you rather a champion you love languish a bit until a developer with an awesome idea raises his/her hand and starts a passionate, invested rework, or would you rather that someone not especially excited about the project gets told "We don't care -- she needs work. Find an idea and run with it." To a large extent Riot runs on the "we have a good idea, so we're looking into it" approach rather than the "keep spending time until you're either completely burned out or find something that'll do for the time being." While I understand this can be super frustrating if your favorite champion isn't doing super well, I personally think it's a better approach.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jPANQ6mo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-08T20:19:46.286+0000) > > Honest question -- would you rather a champion you love languish a bit until a developer with an awesome idea raises his/her hand and starts a passionate, invested rework, or would you rather that someone not especially excited about the project gets told "We don't care -- she needs work. Find an idea and run with it." > > To a large extent Riot runs on the "we have a good idea, so we're looking into it" approach rather than the "keep spending time until you're either completely burned out or find something that'll do for the time being." While I understand this can be super frustrating if your favorite champion isn't doing super well, I personally think it's a better approach. 5 years. Tons of threads and conversations about Karma and her problems. Tons of feedback and creative ideas to work on Karma. This is all in the past five years. What have the Developers done in the past five years that has addressed her major issues, that were actually the fault of them? Nothing and talking to a Developer about the process of working on these champions, they are actually very passionate and want to work on them. Meddler and Reaves resfuse to give them time, manpower and the resources to actually work on these champions. This is because Ezreal needs a mini VGU, Lux needs another art asset update, Ahri needs another rework, Ryze needs another VGU and rework. I don't care what you or anyone else says to me. For the past five years nothing has been done to make this champion better and fix mistakes. The same champions get it every year. Harass me, down vote me, call me names, belittle me, tell me I am wrong. Do whatever you want to me but don't try to invalidate my post and thoughts because history, the Karma mains constantly asking for something to be done and waiting patently, and the Developers work ethic says otherwise. So you tell me what the excuse is? There is none other than working on the same champions every year.
Rioter Comments
Arakadia (NA)
: They arent changing the passive? :(
> [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=KaRmzNlN,comment-id=000b00000001,timestamp=2018-10-02T22:28:45.229+0000) > > They arent changing the passive? :( Nope. Q and Mantra Q are not being changed either.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
Meddler, I create a lot of Karma threads that garner some attention. In the past I've had heated discussions with you about Karma. My problem is this Development team continues to ignore her glaring issues for half arsed work that isn't polished and acceptable at this point. It is 2018 and Karma still has art, identity, theme and kit issues. If none of this is being addressed and you are going to continue sweeping her major problems under a rug, what's the point working on Karma then? The GU is supposed to make Karma not only a more unique and interesting champion to play, but the entire point of the GU is to give her a niche and identity with her kit. The number one problem with Karma is her kit that is all over the place and isn't streamlined for one purpose or identity. Karma has one ability and one Mantra ability that does specific things but doesn't equal one thing. Q and Mantra Q is fit for a Artillery mage, W and Mantra W is fit for a tank, and E and Mantra E is fit for a support. Karma's passive is lackluster and could be better. Add the fact that her art is bland and incomplete and she has a horrible theme, Karma should have been slated for a mini VGU or VGU. Yet, here we are still talking about Karma 5 years later and she has still has the problems she suffered from 5 years ago. I really hope this update gives her an actual gameplay identity and it isn't a half arsed attempt to make her better . . . . like you did with the relaunch. Quite frankly, Meddler, you don't give your Developers the manpower, time, and creativity to address problems for champions like Karma, but you sure have all the money in the world to dish out for the same champions every single year and new ones.
: Well, I feel like this is about what I expected from any look into the tether. Glad the clothesline isn't coming back. I LOVE it in theory, but it's just too niche in its use. Is this the end of your look into Karma, or will you be seeking other directions now?
> [{quoted}](name=Solidair3,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=KaRmzNlN,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-10-01T23:11:24.514+0000) > > Well, I feel like this is about what I expected from any look into the tether. Glad the clothesline isn't coming back. I LOVE it in theory, but it's just too niche in its use. > > Is this the end of your look into Karma, or will you be seeking other directions now? She already decided on a new ability for Karma. Riot NeuroCat said in a few weeks all of the changes will be revealed. Her passive, Q and Mantra Q have not been changed. That's all we know so far.
: Clothesline Karma Mini-Retrospective
I kind of like the third one but I am stoked to see what happens with the W and Mantra W after this.
Meddler (NA)
: I'll get some notes on some of the stuff we've tried on Karma in an upcoming post (probably next week). TLDR is we started by testing some gamepaly things Karma used to have to see if it made sense to bring them back (e.g. W clothesline play). Ran into some issues with that, so looking at other options.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=kAU0FYq9,comment-id=00280000,timestamp=2018-09-26T16:13:47.984+0000) > > I'll get some notes on some of the stuff we've tried on Karma in an upcoming post (probably next week). TLDR is we started by testing some gamepaly things Karma used to have to see if it made sense to bring them back (e.g. W clothesline play). Ran into some issues with that, so looking at other options. I am going to say if these changes to Karma do not pan out, she needs to be put higher on the VGU list or get a Ezreal level update. You have ignored this champion far to long Meddler. You refuse to allocate more resources, time and actual work on this champion and this falls on you. I don't care what people say and I am not going to sugar coat this for you: you are holding her back and at this point it is just coming off as you not caring about the champion. The only thing Karma has going for her is that she is a balanced champion, but at the same time she suffers greatly from having no thematic, no identity, horrible art, a poorly conceptualized kit that clearly isn't working, and a fanbase that is divided because of YOU and your work ethic. I'm tired of having to fight for a champion that no one in your company cares about, but we all see work is being prirortized on new and popular champions. You are responsible for 140 plus champions you decided to put into this game, but it feels like you only care about 20 of the same champions every single year. Do your job.
: My main didn't get a skin! Such favoritism! WTF Riot?! They are giving skins to champions they said they were going to. They promised certain champions skins this year, and that's what they're doing. Sorry your main didn't get one this year, but instead of throwing a fit about it, try waiting until next year. They might have Karma/Zilean/Xerath skins in development. If you just be patient about it instead of slamming the favoritism button, maybe your champs will get skins.
> [{quoted}](name=4 Step Cadence,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=lQNREROB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-25T21:55:12.151+0000) > > My main didn't get a skin! Such favoritism! WTF Riot?! > > They are giving skins to champions they said they were going to. They promised certain champions skins this year, and that's what they're doing. Sorry your main didn't get one this year, but instead of throwing a fit about it, try waiting until next year. They might have Karma/Zilean/Xerath skins in development. If you just be patient about it instead of slamming the favoritism button, maybe your champs will get skins. 1350RP skins for Jinx every year. Karma 0. Ahri 1350RP skins every year. Zilean 0. Lux 1350RP skins every year. Xerath 0.
: The thing is, they don't share everything they are working on. You have no idea how many things they have in store. But they try to not leak things since you know, not all goes live.
> [{quoted}](name=Biscuit Bite,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2018-09-25T12:49:29.344+0000) > > The thing is, they don't share everything they are working on. You have no idea how many things they have in store. But they try to not leak things since you know, not all goes live. Nothing noteworthy is being done behind the scenes. Karma isn't getting a skin anytime soon, she isn't getting the work necessary to make her an interesting champion, and the higher-ups like Meddler and Reav3s are not interested in allowing anyone actually work on Karma outside of a kit that hasn't been working for years now. I bet there are actual employees that care about these champions, but because of Game Devs like Meddler and Reav3s they will never get anything.
: I agree with most of what’s your saying, but I wouldn’t lump ryze in with the others mentioned. Ryze is different from the other mentioned champions because instead of being showered in skins and chromas and buffs he just gets beaten to shit. I understand how you say he gets special treatment because he’s constantly being changed but could you really consider only nerfs and reworks special treatment? All of these champions may be niche to say the least but at least they don’t get gutted every patch because they are Strong in the lowest percentage of the player base! Sorry if I went off the handle a bit, I just really like ryze and I hate him being lumped into groups with Ezreal and Ahri. In conclusion, yes sure ryze gets a lot of attention, but not because he’s popular or has a demanding fan base, but more along the lines of “riot ruined me and won’t fix me because they already tried and failed.” Moving back to the conversation I do agree with you, when I saw that Yasuo had a new skin for the oddessey event I groaned. He got a skin in the last versus event which was little over a year ago and didn’t need another one. Whereas my man zilean (ex zilean main, still play him though) hasn’t gotten a new skin since... like blood moon, years ago. I only really have experience with zilean but the way these I think these champs work is that with the right item buff or meta they can rise to dominance (except ivern, tree dudes weird) which I think is why they don’t get gameplay or visual updates. Also they don’t really have the strongest player bases which is an impact on riots urgency to update them. I do think that they need Vgus or something but I wouldn’t really list them As urgent. (Maybe a biased because I think that instead of pandering to fanbases they should instead fix current problems RIOT! Ahem, ahem ryze, irelia, zoe) But then again, what do I know since they just announced an ezreal Vgu. A champion with one of the highest play rates and fairly decent wins rates. Whatever, I’m done.
> [{quoted}](name=TheZombieWombat,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T14:37:32.213+0000) > > I agree with most of what’s your saying, but I wouldn’t lump ryze in with the others mentioned. Ryze is different from the other mentioned champions because instead of being showered in skins and chromas and buffs he just gets beaten to shit. I understand how you say he gets special treatment because he’s constantly being changed but could you really consider only nerfs and reworks special treatment? All of these champions may be niche to say the least but at least they don’t get gutted every patch because they are Strong in the lowest percentage of the player base! > > Sorry if I went off the handle a bit, I just really like ryze and I hate him being lumped into groups with Ezreal and Ahri. In conclusion, yes sure ryze gets a lot of attention, but not because he’s popular or has a demanding fan base, but more along the lines of “riot ruined me and won’t fix me because they already tried and failed.” > > Moving back to the conversation I do agree with you, when I saw that Yasuo had a new skin for the oddessey event I groaned. He got a skin in the last versus event which was little over a year ago and didn’t need another one. Whereas my man zilean (ex zilean main, still play him though) hasn’t gotten a new skin since... like blood moon, years ago. I only really have experience with zilean but the way these I think these champs work is that with the right item buff or meta they can rise to dominance (except ivern, tree dudes weird) which I think is why they don’t get gameplay or visual updates. Also they don’t really have the strongest player bases which is an impact on riots urgency to update them. I do think that they need Vgus or something but I wouldn’t really list them As urgent. (Maybe a biased because I think that instead of pandering to fanbases they should instead fix current problems RIOT! Ahem, ahem ryze, irelia, zoe) But then again, what do I know since they just announced an ezreal Vgu. A champion with one of the highest play rates and fairly decent wins rates. Whatever, I’m done. I wouldn't say the community likes him at all. I would say Riot likes him a lot and is constantly trying to make a character, theme and kit work that just isn't working. No matter what they have done to Ryze, it has never been well received. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the higher ups were making them work on him, since on of their names is based off of the character. I mean, they worked on Ryze that many times and did it to correct mistakes but where is that for Skarner, Morde, Karma, Shen, Malzahar, and so many other champions that are constantly ignored by this Development team? It's on champions like Ryze, Ahri, Lux, Jinx, and so many others that are just the apple of this company's eye.
: {{champion:82}}
> [{quoted}](name=WAZZZUP500,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-09-25T12:05:44.426+0000) > > {{champion:82}} Yep. I agree. He does need a lot of work. Honestly, he is the worst VGU/relaunch in LoL history. Karma is a close second but Morde is just a disaster.
: Wait why is Jinx in any of this? Riot doesn't work on Jinx as much as any of the other champs you mentioned.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-09-25T17:56:02.874+0000) > > Wait why is Jinx in any of this? Riot doesn't work on Jinx as much as any of the other champs you mentioned. Skin every year, gets constantly number tweaked and attention every year, and much more. Don't say she doesn't because she has more than once been buffed within the last year. She does get attention . . . . and more than others that have been waiting 5 years.
Rioter Comments
: League's Decline - By the Numbers
That's what happens when you mess around with the game too much and expect your fan base not to get upset. They didn't even really fix the problems and potentially created more problems for themselves.
: I asked NC directly and she said she's not a fan of switching inputs. She said Q would need to be ground targeted. Silver Squid and I argued against that of course (as we do lol), but it was just left at that. That was the only thing stated against it. I also suggested that we at least get to place RQ where we want it whilst still being body blockable, but we'll see what happens. I'm guessing you're not on Discord...? If not, please join, NC is pretty active [there](https://discordapp.com/invite/ZXemaYh).
> [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T01:26:24.259+0000) > > I asked NC directly and she said she's not a fan of switching inputs. She said Q would need to be ground targeted. Silver Squid and I argued against that of course (as we do lol), but it was just left at that. That was the only thing stated against it. I also suggested that we at least get to place RQ where we want it whilst still being body blockable, but we'll see what happens. > > I'm guessing you're not on Discord...? If not, please join, NC is pretty active [there](https://discordapp.com/invite/ZXemaYh). I don't go on Discord much anymore, because I don't really play LoL a lot right now. I still watch other people play a lot but I don't play the game as much. I joined though.
: {{champion:42}} {{champion:427}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:26}} don't exist, stop trying to make them exist
> [{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-09-25T00:41:39.709+0000) > > {{champion:42}} {{champion:427}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:26}} don't exist, stop trying to make them exist So you don't think that is a problem? You feel that the players that like these champions and want to play them, should be ignored so champions like Ahri, Lux, Ryze, Ezreal, Jinx, Jhin . . . . and the same champions . . . . . . can get special treatment every single year? You are a smart one. If a champion has a low win and play rate, that is the Developers problem.
OHminus (NA)
: I think Karma's splash arts are pretty good (I also don't like the direction of new splash arts but that's just me I guess)
> [{quoted}](name=OHminus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-09-25T00:40:11.590+0000) > > I think Karma's splash arts are pretty good > > (I also don't like the direction of new splash arts but that's just me I guess) Besides her base splash art, all of the updated splash-art are amazing. I wish some of them had the same quality in-game.
: To be honest, my estimations for the rework went down massively when i found out ground targeting RQ was off the table. I doubt they'll even let us set where RQ detonates like Shyvanna's Dragon form E. NC will probably get support with animations and stuff, but we don't know how much. We can safely assume it won't be enough compared to what most of us think she needs. I don't think you're a Debbie Downer at all, you're being realistic. The less you expect the less likely you are to be disappointed.
> [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T00:12:57.152+0000) > > To be honest, my estimations for the rework went down massively when i found out ground targeting RQ was off the table. I doubt they'll even let us set where RQ detonates like Shyvanna's Dragon form E. > > NC will probably get support with animations and stuff, but we don't know how much. We can safely assume it won't be enough compared to what most of us think she needs. > > I don't think you're a Debbie Downer at all, you're being realistic. The less you expect the less likely you are to be disappointed. Oh wow, I didn't even know Ground Targeted RQ was off the table. Did she announce that somewhere? Unless it is a completely new RQ, it's basically going to have nothing done to it.
gerbe (NA)
: characters that deserve another skin.
I thought Karma's Christmas skin was 1350RP? :O She got a skin two years ago, since skins like Worlds series are not counted. Karma is not getting a skin because she is slated for a gameplay update and they don't give skins to champions that are slated for a gameplay update.
: Meddler has already confirmed we'll be seeing the new passive in 8.20 As for VO yeah sure it would always be nice, but VO are amongst the hardest things for Riot to do in the end. I can get wanting more VO for her, but I feel that just applies to every champion
> [{quoted}](name=Sexy Jack Rabbit,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:50:43.273+0000) > > Meddler has already confirmed we'll be seeing the new passive in 8.20 > > As for VO yeah sure it would always be nice, but VO are amongst the hardest things for Riot to do in the end. > I can get wanting more VO for her, but I feel that just applies to every champion It's not as hard as you think. There is just no cost gain with doing it if they make no profit off of it. Lissandra will never get a VO until she needs a VGU.
Elazull (NA)
: I always loved the bullcrap logic that Karma had identity and thematic issues when I would argue that prior to her rework that she was probably the most iconic champ when it came to theme and identity. Her identity now is generic ap that shows up when they eff up item adjustments and her theme is monotony. Maybe we can trust Riots " no doesnt always mean no" policy and that Meddler is working on her in secret
> [{quoted}](name=Elazull,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:22:15.817+0000) > > I always loved the bullcrap logic that Karma had identity and thematic issues when I would argue that prior to her rework that she was probably the most iconic champ when it came to theme and identity. Her identity now is generic ap that shows up when they eff up item adjustments and her theme is monotony. > > Maybe we can trust Riots " no doesnt always mean no" policy and that Meddler is working on her in secret Well, that was past Developers choices and their fault for that. Unfortunately the fault now falls on Meddler and Reav3s since it has been almost 5 years now and the Karma community is still talking about it. Reav3s and Meddler refuse to do anything, but they go out of their way to work on art content for champions like updating Ezreals textures on Pulsefire, adding more voice lines to Lux, and more. This isn't even counting the counter productive work the art team is doing lately with useless art additions on champions that are slated for a VGU. This falls on Developers like Meddler and Reav3s for wasting their time on things that just end up being counterproductive work.
: Yeah I see where you're coming from. NeuroCat is working closely with Karma mains to get her kit together, but she's limited as to what she can do in terms of art because she's not an artist/animator. One of the Karma community's biggest complaints that pretty much everyone can agree on is that she needs a full suite of animations: - Shield animation - one that won't look awkward when she's moving. - Running animation - honestly, "Rito pls..." - Improved W cast animation - she puts her hands out and a tether just appears from her torso; it looks lazy as hell. Of course in the end we have to just live with whatever they decide to do, but this upcoming update would be the perfect opportunity for Riot to actually put some effort into Karma.
> [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:37:53.562+0000) > > Yeah I see where you're coming from. NeuroCat is working closely with Karma mains to get her kit together, but she's limited as to what she can do in terms of art because she's not an artist/animator. > > One of the Karma community's biggest complaints that pretty much everyone can agree on is that she needs a full suite of animations: > > - Shield animation - one that won't look awkward when she's moving. > - Running animation - honestly, "Rito pls..." > - Improved W cast animation - she puts her hands out and a tether just appears from her torso; it looks lazy as hell. > > Of course in the end we have to just live with whatever they decide to do, but this upcoming update would be the perfect opportunity for Riot to actually put some effort into Karma. I honestly don't think that is going to happen. Riot NeuroCat said she looked into major changes with Karma and even new abilities, which didn't work out apparently. It's probably the same animations and graphics but the abilities are tweaked slightly. I don't think the work is going to be as good as a lot of you think it is. I hate to be a Debbie Downer but it's just what is it at this point. I bet Meddler said no to a lot of things and NeuroCat is stuck working with what she has on Karma right now. I just don't want people to be blaming her for Meddler's and Reav3s mistakes and choices. The decision to ignore Karma, not communicate about Karma, and work on Karma for the past 5 years falls on Meddler and Reav3s only. Riot NeuroCat did tell us she asked Meddler for a little help, but knowing Meddler he probably said no just because it is Karma. I just don't want the community to blame one Developer who is actually trying and communicating with us, when the problems with Karma is Meddler and Reav3s fault.
: I don't understand why Lissandra needs Visual Work? Visually she's fine. She's modern and has good texture and model work. There's nothing wrong with her. She has fully unique animations completely kit wide. She even has a better VO then a big portion of champions. Kitwise she's already been confirmed for changes too.
> [{quoted}](name=Sexy Jack Rabbit,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:43:03.460+0000) > > I don't understand why Lissandra needs Visual Work? > > Visually she's fine. She's modern and has good texture and model work. There's nothing wrong with her. > She has fully unique animations completely kit wide. She even has a better VO then a big portion of champions. > > Kitwise she's already been confirmed for changes too. I wasn't really saying she needed a visual update or anything. She could use more VO to go along with her interactions with Nunu and other champions . . . if they are going to make her such a prominent figure in their stories. Her new passive is getting visual update. We just need to see something because it has been . . . wait a few months now and still nothing?
Sukishoo (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Deathfall,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=v0E7KkHM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-09-24T20:02:47.502+0000) > > Is that the only Halloween skin we are getting? I doubt it. The leak was taken down pretty quickly but usually they just tease 1 one of the skins, there probably are more cause they don't only make 1 Halloween skin a year.
> [{quoted}](name=Sukishoo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=v0E7KkHM,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-09-24T20:09:03.885+0000) > > I doubt it. The leak was taken down pretty quickly but usually they just tease 1 one of the skins, there probably are more cause they don't only make 1 Halloween skin a year. I'm still waiting for Trick or Treat Bard.
: Kai'sa already getting more love than her dad
Is that the only Halloween skin we are getting?
: I agree. +1 from me. It's very frustrating to see how Meddler and Reav3 constantly ignore the champions that actually need work and give it to others who already have had WAY too much. Then when they finally do get to one (Galio, for example), they completely ruin it for the mains who enjoyed the champ. Why were these people even hired in the first place? I honestly don't get it.
> [{quoted}](name=SnugglePuggle94,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbAt7AJB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-24T19:46:42.128+0000) > > I agree. +1 from me. > > It's very frustrating to see how Meddler and Reav3 constantly ignore the champions that actually need work > and give it to others who already have had WAY too much. Then when they finally do get to one (Galio, for example), > they completely ruin it for the mains who enjoyed the champ. > > Why were these people even hired in the first place? I honestly don't get it. Yeah, I agree with you. I wish they would work on controversial champions Riot knows the community doesn't like. I mean, they did it with Aatrox for how many years and months? They still didn't get it right because the major problem is that the content creators are changing the champions too much and not keeping what is actually liked about them. Karma's fans and and shield bomb are brought up in mostly ever conversation, yet she still doesn't have either of them and sits in the same pathetic state for 5 years now. The same will probably be the case for Galio and he has it worse because he is modernized in terms of art compared to Karma.
Rioter Comments
: I wish Riot would make chromas for older skins
If you think the ingame model for that skin is good, you are delusional. It is her worst looking skin in the game with the potential to be the best skin for Karma, if it was done properly. The skin doesn't match the ingame model at all and is is just . . . yeah.
: Old karma was so good, I miss her theme and how she used to actually relate to her theme.
> [{quoted}](name=LaughsInTeemo,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Jj6ULKw7,comment-id=00340000,timestamp=2018-09-14T18:08:07.174+0000) > > Old karma was so good, I miss her theme and how she used to actually relate to her theme. Yep. I mean her old theme and fans could have been amazing if done properly, but Riot decided her mantle of Decorum was a better option and they didn't even do a good job on it. Riot NureroCat is working on Karma right now and she said she asked Meddler if she can have a VFX artist to maybe bring back Karma's fans, but I have a feeling Meddler shot it down. Meddler doesn't particularly like the Karma community or the champion. I've had several conversations with Meddler and Reav3, who are not promoted into new positions, and they have both explicitly shown no interest in making Karma a better champion. It's a shame but it is the truth. The main problem they have with Karma right now is the new players like Karma who just sits in the back and plays a shield bot. They like Karma as a support and don't want her out of the role at all. The old players before her relaunch liked Karma has a mage and she had a better identity and kit that fit a mage, as opposed to what she has now. Before the relaunch Karma was played more top and midlane than the support role. Riot NueroCat is probably having a very hard time trying to find a balance between what new players like vs what old players want. Old players want most of her old kit back and the fans. New players can care less about any opinion that isn't a champion that sits in the back like and presses R+E. The same is Riot Game Developers created this friction and had the past 5 years to fix it, but they wasted time on champions like Ryze, Lux, Ahri and many others. At the end of the day, the blame falls on Developers like Meddler, Reav3s and RicklessAbbandon who is no longer with the company.
Meddler (NA)
: We'll likely keep doing Versus events, they've been pretty well received. Frequency on them will likely vary, as with other themes like Pool Party and Project. Don't want to spend so much time on existing themes that we can't also explore new ones like Odyssey. So far we've used lore rivalries, in particular ones that are well known and that players seem to care about. Possible we diverge from that in the future though, or take the chance to introduce a new rivalry to the lore in the course of a Versus event.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Jj6ULKw7,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-09-14T17:09:17.498+0000) > > We'll likely keep doing Versus events, they've been pretty well received. Frequency on them will likely vary, as with other themes like Pool Party and Project. Don't want to spend so much time on existing themes that we can't also explore new ones like Odyssey. > > So far we've used lore rivalries, in particular ones that are well known and that players seem to care about. Possible we diverge from that in the future though, or take the chance to introduce a new rivalry to the lore in the course of a Versus event. I would like to see a {{champion:43}} vs {{champion:39}} rivalry. A battle between future and past Ionia.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 14
How are the Karma changes coming along? The fact that there hasn't been any news or feedback about her rework is very worrisome. Unless the Riot Developer working on the rework is still going through the ideation phase of the rework, is there any feedback you can give us? I know she posted a Reddit thread about what we want to see, but the majority of the comments in that thread were about bringing back her fans. That tells you, Meddler, no one is happy with her theme and visual update you gave her 5 years ago. I don't want to know about the visual update and thematic problems Karma has. I want to know what you guys are doing with her kit, since history has shown us that any work you do on Karma is very controversial. I do not want to see the same mistakes again on Karma and then you making us wait 5 more years for another rework.
: @Balance team, What are your plans with Ryze since the recent nerf?
They are at a lost with what to do with Ryze. He needs ANOTHER VGU or rework to make him better, but they have already given home so many reworks and VGU. Right now they are just trying to keep him out of the pro-scene. I heard them say they were thinking about changing his ULT but I could be wrong. The Developers are not working on him right now because Ryze is a very controversial champion. When he gets more work done on him, a group of mains who have been waiting years to even have their champion looked it, gets ignored. Players are fed up with the work on Ryze so they are not doing anything on him in the near future.
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