SanKakU (NA)
: Yeah I actually didn't think they could've done a worse job of a rework after that Alistar rework. Looks like I was wrong.
This wasn't a rework at all, his rework will be coming much later in the year if it is even completed this year.
: a Diamond Aatrox mains words on the Aatrox changes, riot respond if you dare
It was never made to be a buff, it was to add balancing levers so that they hopefully can make him at least playable in some form via other changes before his impending rework. This wasn't a rework nor beneficial changes, they had minimal time to work on these.
: that doesnt rly matter if the ally jungler is ~~retrded~~ unskilled
At which point you are using a low skill player as a reason to nerf a champion, Caitlyn isn't that oppressive if you know what you're doing.
: If crit based adcs are going to get buffs
If a Caitlyn maxes traps early she loses a massive amount of shoving power and trading potential, take advantage of it and don't let her set up traps.
: The post is a joke, anything that involves Jhin and 4 tends to be... And the mechanic is acceptable because if he wants to sit on 4 shots in lane he´ll miss CS or burn mana for it, altho it could stand to be reduced to 6 seconds or something.
Rebonack (NA)
: It's a travesty that Jhin can sit on his fourth shot for ten seconds
Hell no, his 4th shot timer lasts that long because his reload timer is 2.5 seconds.
: @Ghostcrawler, can you do the playerbase a favor?
Great topic to address, but I already know it's related to the nunu fiasco and that you're ignorant to the case. Nobody was banned for playing an off meta pick, there will always be some form of toxicity involved if they were banned while doing something unconventional. In this case the toxicity was fucking over a player without their consent in order to play a playstyle. You absolutely cannot take away a players impact/agency in order to increase your own without them approving of it, it's akin to trolling them.
: Also When its Nunu and he can get it done fast and also helps him by stacking his q passive "well fed" which he does to not steal your minions. Also Roaming puts your adc at an xp advantage. if an adc ever found out it would be {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
There is no exp advantage involved if the enemy bot lane is competent. It's extremely easy to freeze the wave next to their tower and then have the support zone you out of exp range due to the threat of being engaged on. I hate to burst your bubble but laning 1v2 is absolutely not possible at any high level of play and there is in no form an advantage involved.
: > [{quoted}](name=Depárt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tb1E6HTr,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-27T10:42:03.397+0000) > > Yes? Cleaver is a pretty common korean item on adcs and it's where the GB>cleaver build on Lucian and MF originated. > > Why does it surprise you that they would do it on something like Draven, it is/was really good.(not sure how it performs after the cleaver changes) I understand cleaver on MF/Lucian because they max stack it super easy, but Draven hits like a truck and ideally wants to kill you in under 5 axes
It's not about always being able to stack it quickly, cleaver's synergy with flat armor pen is extremely good and also helps to deal with tanks while dumpstering squishies at the same time. The way flat armor pen works is it increases your damage by a flat percentage, the less armor the target has the more that flat percentage is. Taking 30 armor from a 60 armor target gives you a much larger increase than taking 30 armor from a 200 armor target. Flat pen is calculated after %pen and since cleaver counts as % you can reduce their armor by a lot before the flat pen is counted and massively increase the effectiveness of flat pen. This is only counting the passive, cleaver has good stats for the price that are pretty attractive to carries.
: > [{quoted}](name=VulDread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tb1E6HTr,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2017-02-26T21:33:33.187+0000) > > Don't critique the build if you don't know what you're talking about... > > Currently, Draven has two build paths: > > Korean of Youmuus+Cleavers+Crit/Atkspd item > > and > > Traditional/Behind: IE/BT/atkspd item > > Can't complain about Draven if you don't know how he works cleaver? seriously?
Yes? Cleaver is a pretty common korean item on adcs and it's where the GB>cleaver build on Lucian and MF originated. Why does it surprise you that they would do it on something like Draven, it is/was really good.(not sure how it performs after the cleaver changes)
Tomosima (EUNE)
: Which pre reworked champion do you miss the most?
: PSA: Draven is very strong right now
Still a mediocre pick that relies too heavily on snowballing as he always has.
: You mean where one item is getting it reduced form 20 to 15?
The lethality mastery in the TLD tree is also getting lowered and so are damage masteries across the board. Stop acting like these nerfs are insignificant, lethality isn't even the main problem. Edge of Night is the biggest case of being overpowered, you don't even seem to understand why we're in a "lethality meta."
: I had 188 Armor as Ahri, since I decided to buy a Deadman's Plate because there were Jayce, Pantheon, and Varus all stacking Lethality and either a LDR/BC, although Varus had a LDR not a BC. Took 666 damage from 1 Varus Q. His items gave him 300 Bonus AD, 50 Lethality, 45% Bonus Armor pen, and 15% extra Physical damage against me because of LDR's passive. >Nida's Q still hits for more Yes, the slower, thinner skillshot that hits the usually weaker resistance does more. Big surprise. >Maybe try building some health 716 bonus HP from items and runes. >if you're that bad? Go fuck yourself if you're gonna go around calling people bad.
That's an extremely insignificant amount of armor against full lethality and LDR. You're barely reducing damage by anything at that point and the 15% multiplier is massive for his arrows due to the ratio.
: Yeh they had high damage late game Not with two items like now
His 4th shot at 2 items has always done a lot, if not more. Are you forgetting ghostblade/duskblade build where you could Q 4th shot and have the duskblade finish them off?
: Quitting until lethality is fixed
Jhin crits have always done that much no matter the build, not to mention it was likely a 4th shot so it's also adding missing health. This is the reality of 5-6 item carries, get over it.
: Just a thought on LeBlanc
It's 2 spells, it procs on spell effects twice if both damage parts trigger. That's just how it works. Maybe it should be changed to only proc on spell effects upon the root, that gates a lot of problems with it, including thunderlords and her passive.
: "ADC in 2k17 lul"
Nice circlejerk on pick rates. Now look at why they're so high, they can play the game from 2000+ range while any ADC that has to be in auto range to be effective gets obliterated and is ineffective. Those pick rates are like that because there's no real choice.
: To those who keeps saying Lethality should outscale tanks Let me tell you this
What kind of circlejerk is this?? Lethality is supposed to be and _is_ weak against tanks. It's the combination of black cleaver and last whisper items that make lethality stackers able to kill tanks. There is nothing tankbuster about lethality, removing 50 armor from a 350 armor tank removes a whopping 5% of their phys damage reduction, if even that much. On a less important sidenote, 500 armor is excessive. You should be building much more health with your armor being at around 300-350 max before any abilties. Armor has diminishing returns in the sense that going from 0-100 armor will give you 50% more reduced phys damage, while going from 100-200 only gives you 16.667% more reduced phys damage. That number goes very low with more armor purchases. 500 armor with 2.5k health is nothing compared to 300 armor with 4k health.
: Except that I would argue that the rewards from the AD items are nearly as high as Zhonya's. Take someone like Lux - Zhonya's neutralizes her ult combo, but Maw lets you tank it, Edge of Night stops it from happening, and QSS lets you walk out of it. Nearly equal reward, but with none of the risk. It's my opinion that the tradeoffs for Zhonya's are too high when the AD items have extremely powerful abilities with no tradeoff.
In that specific case it does underperform, but look at it against something like Fiora, or Zed, or Yasuo. Zhonya's nullifies a lot more than the AD/MR items do, you can use Zhonya's against anything while you can only use the other items in certain cases against AP.
Derfel (NA)
: The fact that it's still not disabled tells you just how much Riot gives a fuck about the balance of their game.
Why would they disable and item that is working as intended, Riot hotfixes things if they're that broken, not disables them. See release xin zhao and leblanc. EoN really isn't that broken, it's a placebo affect. It's certainly too strong with how low the cooldown on the active is, and when lethality gets tuned down a little bit and the active cd goes back up to 45 it will be a relatively balanced item.
: Rylais was nerfed because it offered too much durability/utility for how much damage it provided
Not even close stat wise, EoN is strong because the active is on such a low cooldown and lethality is slightly overtuned. Rylaids was a completely different story and was for more broken.
: She has a BC, hexdrinker and LDR. I have Trinity, Ninja Tabi and Omen with 175 armor I take 1833 damage form her ult surviving with about 400 health. I think things are a bit out of hand currently and building tanky does not feel rewarding.
2 items designed majorly around making tank items not so tanky, and you are expecting to not take a lot of damage? You only have 175 armor, that's hardly anything in a tanky perpsective. You're not a tank, you're a bruiser. Also for mfs ult to do that much, it has to be full channeled and she has to be level 11 with at least 280 AD. Her level 2 ult with 280 ad will do 2,940 damage before resistances, after LDR you'll have around 145 armor and after black cleaver you'll have 102 armor. That's still slightly over 50% damage reduction, so before any percentage increases that's cut down to 1470. We'll assume you have enough health over her for LDR percentage to take full effect, with the 15% bonus physical damage increase that number goes up to 1,691 with a full channel. Adding the rest of masteries and the 7% armor pen we can safely call it anywhere from 1800-1900 damage. I didn't do the math on the last mastery part, so feel free to correct any numbers after the LDR bonus. This is where it's not adding up, does does a MF have 280 AD with those items? 3 infernals by the time she has 2 1/2 items?
Aniela (NA)
: I don't disagree with your overall point, but I do disagree with Zhonyas equating to QSS. QSS serves a fairly different purpose to Zhonyas, and if anything QSS shouldn't build into any kind of offensive path, and instead something purely defensive (i.e. QSS+KindleGem -> Health+ MR, or QSS+ Glacial -> MR and armor and CDR). That'd probably curb some of the excess damage we have around too.
I never meant to compare them as equals, but rather a case for each class where they have something the other doesn't. I apologize if my point was misunderstood. It sounds like a good idea at first but the truth is {{item:3139}} isn't a common item anymore. This is mostly because ADCs that use it and get in range to be CCed are pretty bad in this meta, you have to be able to play from extreme ranges to be useful. There's no reason to change the item right now, it's not oppressive and is one of the only things keeping auto attack based ADCs playable. Even if the meta switches to auto attack carries being prominent, they don't have too much damage. Masteries are being changed extremely soon, with the damage masteries having lower stats all around. Masteries have been a huge contributor to damage rising throughout the seasons, when those changes go through damage will be in a much healthier spot, with champions having 2-7% less damage overall from masteries.
: Neither Edge of Night nor Maw of Malmortius or even QSS have that drawback, though. If you misuse one of those, the worst that happens is that it goes on cooldown. Zhonya's will actively kill you if you use it wrong. Not counting, of course, that there are quite a few counters to the active itself even when used well. Zhonya's is always a one-way trip to the fountain if an enemy Caitlyn is anywhere nearby, just as an example. Of course, I'm not saying that Zhonya's is absolutely terrible. It's really amazing against champions with highly telegraphed burst ultimates, like Zed or Lux. But it is situational because it has high risk. The AD equivalents don't have high risk. They are pure reward.
None of them make you completely invincible for a period of time either, they each have their own strengths. There has to be a tradeoff to such a potentially strong active, the tradeoff is it can kill you if you don't put thought into how you use it. Low risk - medium reward Medium risk - high reward That's how they work.
sobi999 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Depárt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB80Xflm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-20T10:57:36.664+0000) > > There doesn't have to be an AD-AP equal for every item. > > AP has Zhonya's, AD has QSS. > > Also, if a QSS is really that necessary for you there's nothing stopping you from buying it. You can sit on a QSS for majority of games and not make it to the point where you need to sell it as a mage or ap assassin. Lets have a deal. Why not we swap the QSS and you take the active of zhonya? Imo who do you think you're fooling?
I'm pretty sure that would benefit ADCs heavily, that allows them to survive assassination attempts if no one is there to save them. Good carry players very rarely get caught by CC later in the game, QSS isn't even a common item for AD anymore unless against malzahar or warwick. What you're not seeing is the power of Zhonya's is gated behind the decision making and positioning of the player, it's one of the most impactful items if not the most impactful if you use it right. Of course you're going to be a sitting duck if you Zhonya's in a bad spot with no one nearby to help you.
: > [{quoted}](name=Depárt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB80Xflm,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-20T13:32:17.907+0000) > > If you can't position well enough to not die to an assassin, you have to sacrifice your optimal build for more of these defensive items, even if they're not the best with your champion. > > That's just how the game works, AP champions have equal if not more defensive options than AD champions, with one of them being Zhonya's which is one of the most impactful items in the game Man that is one of the things i am saying, positioning doesnt matter much when a talon jumps over a wall and goes invisible before going Q-AA on your ass and oneshotting you. And the defensive "options" that mages have as you refer to it is range and zhonya, however both those are fairly pointless if the opponent comes running in with the nearly same movepspeed as a yi ulting and then goes invisisble or just kills you before you can even active the Zhonya. And both rengar and kha6 are capable of achieving this as well altho through slightly different means. I am a former plat that got there by playing fairly mixed but mainly ADC, my positioning was good by most people standards. I had a 6 -1 win/loss ratio with trist under a time she was considered bad.,...then i abused Ashe a lot as well. However if i try to play either of those now i die instantly if they gapclose even once. never have league been punsihing players that arent using a specific build or a particular bunch of champions so hard and it's reflected in the current stat of the game as well. In korea they pretty much only playing lethality champs and only banning them too, maybe 1 AP to keep the enemy from just building 5 thornmails. Riot balance at it's finest. And even here in backwater EU low mmr normals i am feeling it, just some days or a wekk ago i played Ashe out of nostalgia and i was doing fairly well but not great. The enemy team had a Rengar however i avoided him and warded to stay safe and that worked fairly well. The rest of my team was winning quite hard though if i recall but rengar was even with me at least. Then later i grouped with the others and we pushed bot. Suddenly Rengar jumps out by himself into the middle of my team and literally twos hot me before i even managed to flash and my support´s exhaust activated after i died too. Then he got stunlocked and died but i am fairly certain that he's not supposed to be able to do that. I mean, i died from full health in 1,2 seconds in the middle of my team vs a rengar that wasn't even fed. All he had was lethality. And people everywhere are noticing this, any lethality user that plays the champ decently is now a god instead of just good. That is a huge leap and not one that is good for the game's health.
Positioning absolutely matters, I'm sorry if you feel it doesn't but the reality is you're not playing well enough and that there are plenty of ways to deal with assassins. You just have to play safer and always assume they are looking to kill you.
: Maybe if more than half of those HP/AP options weren't garbage or at least viable on more than a select few champions.
It's the same scenario for maw though, the item has become a niche and only really worth it over something like EoN if they are extremely AP heavy and you already have decent enough damage to be able to make that sacrifice. Sometimes you just have to completely throw away the fact that the item is niche and get it just to survive, you can't do anything with your optimal items if you're dead. I would like to add that none of these items are garbage, they're all some of the most cost efficient AP items in the game. Don't let meta builds fool you on them, they can sometimes be a good choice.
: To be fair, he's also an ADC main, so he might be biased. Personally, I'd take Edge of Night or an anti-phys Maw over Zhonya's simply because they don't have any drawbacks and Zhonya's does.
What about being an adc main makes it seem biased? Zhonya's only drawback is misusing it and ending up in a spot where you're just a sitting duck.
: Mecurial schimitar resistance is 35 yes? That is enough to bring one from 65 mr to 100 which in terms of magic damage negated is a rise from 35-40% to 50% Quite good but it's indeed the active that important. And it also offers life steal and AD in addition. I personally often build this item to good success for my AD assassins and ADC's. EoN might be broken however it exists therefore it cannot be ignored. And hexdrinker and it's uppgrade maw are primarely in my personal opinion, best in the early midgame. A zed Rushing hexdrinker is very hard to deal with for some mages. Goes for other AD assassins as well. And the reason i state mages need more armor is simple. Lethality. What does lethality do? At later lvls it practically reduces you armor by 1 point for each lethality point. And you can stack up to around 60 with runes. Mages all tend to have low base resistances, so when a AD assassin jumps that the mage literally dies in a heartbeat without Zhonya. And even with zhonya you still die extremely fast in the later lvls due to the assassin gaining more AD. This would be at least helped a lot by a AP item that gives around 20-30 armor. Mages would still be squishy not but Q-R dead by talon squishy. And you are listing health items that are fairly niche pick, only a few are using anything besides {{item:3116}} and{{item:3001}} but how does abyssal help at all vs lethality? And you take so damm much damage that building a little health doesn't even affect anything. Liandry is also a item that only 3-4 champions can actually use well, you need a dot to make good use of it. And why should a AD champion that oneshots need armor? To survive being oneshot by other lethality users? That sounds like a great thing.... except all non lethality ADCs and fighters will become fairly useless with a handful of exceptions. Which is currently happening. And then some argue that tanks counter lethality well, except you can stack last whisper item and black cleaver ontop of your lethality. With that a 300 armor melee high scaling target now has 80-90 left which is like a cloth armor in addition to his base armor. Now the tanks is garbage which is reflected very well in the current state of the game. And god forbid you have any less armor.... And perhaps you are right, health might be good against lethality. Except you can't actually stack health unless playing a fighter or a tank. A normal mage, say Orianna for one will if aiming for good damage and kiting go for a build like {{item:3020}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3116}} ( not necessarily in that order) I know that if zhonya is on CD then Ori get's literally 3 shot by talon using Q-R-AA. Even through her barrier. Then for a more unusual mage let's name Ryze. He can build a ton of items and do well! Except he´s busted still in need of a rework but he exists so sure, a good ryze can manage. But how many others can do as well? Tell me a mage or two that stands a reasonable chances at even surviving a Talon using {{item:3142}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3111}} . He´ll just walk through the CC and oneshot the mage upon gapclosing. Epic outplays. And yes, i am salty as hell because this happened to me. Guy literally "outplayed" me by jumping over a wall, taking my first hit with his EoA and then cleansing my CC before pretty much oneshotting me. And this happened vs Talon, kha6 and rengar. People have mentioned Quinn just going E-AA-Q-AA and killing them before they can trade back too. Current state of the game is not good, not good at all.
If you can't position well enough to not die to an assassin, you have to sacrifice your optimal build for more of these defensive items, even if they're not the best with your champion. That's just how the game works, AP champions have equal if not more defensive options than AD champions, with one of them being Zhonya's which is one of the most impactful items in the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Depárt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kB80Xflm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-20T10:57:36.664+0000) > > There doesn't have to be an AD-AP equal for every item. > > AP has Zhonya's, AD has QSS. > > Also, if a QSS is really that necessary for you there's nothing stopping you from buying it. You can sit on a QSS for majority of games and not make it to the point where you need to sell it as a mage or ap assassin. Except AD also gets {{item:3814}} {{item:3155}} {{item:3091}} and the QSS against AP. The only dedicated AP against AD is {{item:3157}} . And the game has changes since zhonya was added, AD champs have evolved and mages still have their old items to deal with it altho some new champs and abilities however the old mages feel like they get punished quite hard by say a enemy assassin stacking {{item:3814}} and {{item:3140}} they just dash ontop of you and you can't peel them off and you have seconds before you die to to lack of armor.
Well lets see, lets go ahead and take wits end out because that item barely works on any champion and is a waste of a slot. QSS resistances are relatively meaningless in a 4+ item scenario and is all about the removal of CC. That leaves us with EoN which is pretty strong right now(mainly because of the spellshield and not the MR), and hexdrinker/maw which offer incredibly weak damage stats in exchange for an anti burst AP shield and some stats when the shield pops. EoN is broken and is a large contributor to the lethality meta, hexdrinker and maw is severely outclassed by it. You will rarely see both items unless against an extremely AP heavy team. Now we get to my favorite part, I so often see people bring up every MR item that has any sort of offensive stats on it and compare that to Zhonya's as the only armor item and say "You have all this mr and we only have this armor!1!1!" You seem to be forgetting the ridiculous amount of other hybrid items AP classes are offered. {{item:3151}} {{item:3030}} {{item:3152}} {{item:3027}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3001}}. I know these items aren't amazing choices on some AP champions all the time, but neither is maw or wits end, so we won't be accepting that argument. All of these items have significant defense stats, all without giving up much damage or other utilities. AD champions have no AD/armor items, do you know why? Because it's not good for game balancing. AP champions build more health as their defensive stat, AD champions build more resistances as their defensive stat. That's how the game is balanced out, health is also coincidentally a very good stat against lethality while anything under 180 armor isn't.
: Were you not here for the Feral Flare meta?
I didn't find it that bad, it was often shut down in high elo because games could be closed out before it got to a point of being too out of control. Maybe it's just from my perspective though, I didn't find it too cancerous. I've played since S2 so yeah, I was here for it.
azraiell (NA)
: QSS needs an AP upgrade
There doesn't have to be an AD-AP equal for every item. AP has Zhonya's, AD has QSS. Also, if a QSS is really that necessary for you there's nothing stopping you from buying it. You can sit on a QSS for majority of games and not make it to the point where you need to sell it as a mage or ap assassin.
: This season is a complete mess and a joke. Never in my life have I seen so many broken champs. It's utterly disgusting.
I'm not seeing any more broken champs than the normal 5 or so, perhaps you are confusing champion power with the power of lethality?
: Why do Ad champs get 3 MR with AD options, and AP champs get 1 armor with AP option?
I just need to know why you're complaining about IBG being used on AD champs more than AP. It's 100% geared towards ad bruisers and tanks, sheen doesn't do damage based on AP, it's based on base AD. If you don't know, majority of ap champions have much lower base AD than other champs.
: Now when people on Reddit ask "What was the worst meta?"
Cinderhulk or sunfire/gauntlet was still far worse. 6 black cleavers was also pretty cancerous. At least lethality is getting nerfs all around already while those metas were solid for 2+ months.
: Kinda hilarious how AD item have extremely low cooldowns while Zhonya's sitting on a two minute CD
Funny how the item has far more potential on demand than any other defense/offense item in the game. It has the power to deny everything in the game, it makes you invincible on demand. That's game changing. Not to mention the absurdly powerful active, it comes with decent stats to boot, not completely gold efficient but that's what the active is for. There's a reason the active cooldown was lengthened, Zhonya's is oppressive to play against when the cd is just over a minute. It often removes the ability to punish someones mistakes, just because they can erase themselves from the map for 2.5 seconds while their team comes to save them from mispositioning. Don't be foolish, Zhonya's is in a decent spot right now and is still one of the best items in the game.
: The Assassin update aimed at reducing the time it took to kill people
It aimed at *increasing* the time it took to kill people, not the other way around.
: Has Riot ever considered just making supports... more attractive?
Zyra is pretty attractive but maybe I'm just into plants
: I like how people be saying Marksmen are weak since the assassin update
What season are you in?? -Corki is barely viable -Graves has a low pickrate with a 47.6% winrate in the jungle I would also like to point out there are quite a few games in master+ with Ziggs as the bottom laner, there ARE games going without ADCs now.
: I'd rather have Pickaxe build out of two Longswords than BF. BF and NLR have always been the mirror of each other in the high cost, no component, high power items. It just doesn't seem fair to have ADs to suddenly break this tradition and get longsword(s) to build out of..
What isn't fair is AD having no items besides zeal items have realistic build paths that don't screw them out of the game on a consistent basis. ADC is an entirely different situation to mages, mages can most of the time reliably get NLR without losing the game, AD can't reliably get BF.
: Huh, it doesn't? Swore it did. Either way, could make it so that Cait doesn't get the benefit by making her headshot an on-hit or something of that regard. It also takes away thematically how she's a sniper when she's landing a headshot every two hits because of hurricane.
Caitlyn needs to be changed but changing her interaction with hurricane is not the way to go, it would be much better to look at her traps. - How long they last under tower - How much damage they do - How long they root for - How long the CD is All of these are good options to nerf caitlyn without making her borderline unviable.
: If BF builds out of Longswords, I want NLR to build out of Amp Tomes.
Almost every mage/ap assassin item already builds out of amp tomes, if not all. ADC is not in such a state, we can't just get a couple longswords on a bad back. The only ADC this is really possible on is Jhin with Ghostblade, as every other ADC really doesn't want to use it after the changes made to it.
Rebonack (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Depárt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TiGqRo9U,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2016-12-29T03:21:01.838+0000) > > Posts to nerf ADCS and ADC items when they're in a god awful spot, I'm so glad Riot doesn't listen to any balance suggestions on the boards. Too much power has been shifted from Marksmen kits to Marksmen items. Knocking down abuse cases would allow the actual champions to be improved as needed.
The items are the main point that is causing ADCs to be weak. Too expensive with too weak power spikes, that's why ghostblade was a thing. Cheaper item with a higher spike. The only kits that need to be changed are Lucian, Kalista, Ashe, Sivir (buffs) Caitlyn, Twitch (nerfs)
: Shiv itself has a very confused identity. The static shock can crit and RFC's can't, which means it does more damage to a single target than the supposed single target variant, RFC. So it's supposed to be the waveclear item, but it is actually the single target damage item.
RFC is mainly for extra damage and range in siege scenarios, it works on structures while shiv doesnt.
: There are two bolts Dealing a total of 25X2=50% or if they crit 50X2=100%
Ah I thought you meant per bolt, my bad
: Can we all agree the ryze doesn't deserve a shield?
Wouldn't have to deal with him having a shield if you didn't take him off the perma-ban list where he belongs.
: Would you rather BFsword cost 1650 again?
I'd rather it build out of longswords. I would also like to point out BF being 1650 wasn't as bad as it sounds upfront, there was no constant ganking and roaming on bot lane, and dragon was a global gold objective, meaning securing it nets you a quicker buy on it. There weren't near as many ganks bot lane as there are now, losing your bot lane pretty much means losing the game now. I would much prefer the meta where I need extra gold to get an item, but can reliably get that item.
: first point need I bring up BF sword or Zeal? Both arte 1300 and a reasonable power boost for the cost. I agree with the weaker turret point. Furst turret gold and making bot turret the ideal target is a problem. The fundamentals of marksmen being ranged and relying on auto attacking with AD, attack speed, crit and armor pen as factors for scaling damage instate of many champs 3 or 2 keeps their power relevant but takes longer to become a threat. Cheaper does not mean better. I want Frozen heart, warmogs and omen to be what they were in season 2 but instead they are cheaper but also weaker. You pay for the higher damage scaling on ADC items.
It doesn't matter if BF and zeal are good, they're too expensive to not have a build path. Zeal atleast builds out of something smaller, Zeal isn't a problem. BF sword is just a flat 1300 gold with no build path, leaving you largely vulnerable to getting fucked out of the game before you even get your first back off. Tank items aren't weaker, they're way better than AD items up until 5-6, and that 5 has to include a bonus armor pen item. They're cheap while also spiking harder on 1-4 buys. AD items are more expensive and aren't effective until 3-6. I'm fine with ADC needing to scale up, all of their items multiple off of eachother for that reason. What needs to change is build pathing, and maybe prices lowered slightly on ER, IE and BT. You need late game to be relevant, but you can't make it there because you're a gold farm before 30 minutes. Why pick ADC if you're never going to make it to the point where you're actually worth having (hence the ziggs bot shenanigans that shiphtur and a lot of ADC players in high elo are toying with currently)
: Please enlighten me.
Let's see, - God awful itemization, ending up back in base without 1300 gold (which happens quite often due to roams and ganks bot) basically fucks over your lane, you're forced to either buy nothing or just concede your chance of winning lane and go for cull. There is almost nothing for 90% of adcs to build out of longswords, which as can be seen from season 6, when ADC can build out of longswords they can actually impact the game before 30 minutes. Right now it's stuck to extremely slowly scaling crit builds and high cost items like essence reaver being built first. - Bot lane turret has no extra protection early like other turrets, this is the main cause of constant 5 man ganks and roams bot, it feels terrible to play the role because of it. If you get 5 man ganked and lose first turret and most likely dragon too, the game often snowballs out of control with little to nothing you can do about it. - Almost every single ADC has been nerfed repeatedly since the marksman rework, leaving them basically in the dirt (see Lucian, Kalista, Sivir, Ashe) the constant item nerfs and mastery nerfs on top of that didn't help either. - Every other class has much cheaper items, hitting again on the itemization point. Essence Reaver costs 3600 gold for a relatively weak power spike, while Sunfire costs 2900 and allows you to be pretty much invincible to someone who has essence reaver, which is 700 more than you payed for your item. ADC items are too expensive to everything else.
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