: Good and evil are definitely relative. Not necessarily in terms of *concept*, but in terms of what qualifies as "good" or "evil." There are some cultures where having twins is an occurrence. Others were it is considered a blessing. Others where it is considered a sign of evil on the part of the family or the children. In ancient Rome animal sacrifice was a good and holy act. Today it's considered a commonly evil one in western cultures. Throughout history human sacrifice has been both honored and reviled. Even within these confines, what is good/evil varies. Practices that are good and just and right to one culture could be heresy and evil to another.
Okay but what's your stance on murder? How about saving a child from drowning? Just because there are a lot of examples of things that can sway either way does NOT mean there is NOTHING that isn't black or white. Also, we're in a modern global economy. Many values are shared across the world. You can't take something like twins as an omen and expect us to believe you in modern day.
: Pentakill Kayle makes Mordekaiser and Aatrox jealous.
As a Sona main I am UBER jealous and I want them to redo her Pentakill skin too!
: > That would work...if they had released an actual story about Kayle and Morgana with the bios. Well only recently would Riot release lore first thing after the reveal of new VGUs/champ. Ever since the monumentally misconstrued reception of Aatrox with his reworked VO, the devs decided that they'd release any champ's biography first then colour story a little later, whereas both used to be released together a day or so before the patch goes live. We're stuck with Bio first, Colour Story later because half this community are toxic cry-babies too inpatient to wait a couple of days.
> because half this community are toxic cry-babies too inpatient to wait a couple of days. Way to be an asshole. I came back recently and have no idea about any Aatrox drama so I had no idea that this was their preferred method. I'm still not a fan of it but at least there's promise of good story to come.
: > [{quoted}](name=Disig,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WbFERbEd,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T01:34:56.169+0000) > > I didn't read it like that at all. The dude tried to imprison her, she fought back. Self defense, at least. Trying to prevent him from harming the people with her at most. It's not clear. That she did. But she didn’t need to kill him. That’s what I’m tryihg to say. She had the power of an Aspect, or at least half of one, she could’ve just held him, which would’ve prevented much worse things. She did *not* need to kill him.
Actually no, it's implied that her chains killed him on accident.
: > guess they wanted the bios to be a general telling of their story but I feel like they should have taken the time to write it as an actual story. The writers consciously dont do that anymore. The point is that a biography is meant to be a like a wikipedia article. Informative and straight to the point. When the writers want to delve deep into the nuance of a specific event or character, that they do so not necessarily in a bio but save it for an actual short story. Better to think of a bio as a separate entity. Maybe like, the Bio is the summary on the back of a novel while the Short Stories are the chapters that make up said novel.
That would work...if they had released an actual story about Kayle and Morgana with the bios. I feel like this release is the perfect opportunity to introduce them to us properly. Get us to feel about them, get to know them. But they didn't do that. I just feel it's a shame.
: Meh, its hard to talk about I think because of the fact that magic isn't exactly an often talked about thing in typical modern discourse, (though it should be noted that the Old Testament clearly says to kill practitioners of magic, and thus it is an old bad, to the point where I am pretty sure it does carry the death penalty in fairly state religious countries like Saudi Arabia) but considering that being pro magic or against magic is a fairly typical argument in fantasy, I think you are underestimating how many people agree with discrimination against mages. And I think you are discounting all the good that has been said of Demacians in Garens bio, and the recent story of those Demacian soldiers escorting an emmissary, and the Lux story. Demacia is still a nation that cares for its countrymen in general and likely doesnt really suffer from starvation or much crime. That said, while I disagree on Demacia being a failure of showing grey and that people are overlooking too much. I agree on Kayle, I think plenty of people can accept someone who is brutal and unrelenting if they see the good that can come out of it. But the lore given doesnt really show us any kind of tangible benefit of her actions, I am sure riot intended for it to exist, but they didnt get that across.
Alright, first of all I am regarding LoL and our world as completely separate entities. I'm judging magic by what we've been shown in LoL's recent lore. Not old testament from our world. That just makes NO SENSE. Also, I think you need to judge magic as it is in Runeterra, not all other fantasy. That's what I am doing. Bringing in real world shit (which is utterly ridiculous as magic isn't real) and other fantasy universes, which is not the topic of discussion, does nothing to this conversation. I haven't read Garren's bio, so that's fair, and I'll take your word on it. But with the story of the soldiers escorting the emissary I think it proves my point. The citizens hate Demacian policy because it took their children. It's showing Demacia in a negative light. The soldiers aren't representative of the country itself or it's laws, they're just caught in the crossfire. It's just another example of Demacian law being bad. That mixed with Sylas' story and all the others we have of Demacia basically subjugating mages, any grey area there may be just isn't in view. Riot just needs to showcase it more to balance out all the bad we've been seeing lately.
: > [{quoted}](name=Disig,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WbFERbEd,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-02-21T20:50:17.662+0000) > > The problem is you are asking too many questions that SHOULD have already been answered by the bio. We shouldn't be guessing and grasping at straws to try and find something "bad" that Morgana does. Especially since with Kayle we get it clear as day. Well the first two questions are more for those who keep saying Morgana isn’t bad. No, she did not have to kill him. No, she did not have to shackle him until he died. As far as we’re presented, she chose that route. The “stopping the riot” question is merely an unknown element from Kayle’s bio, because the riot is left out of Morgana’s bio but was a factor in Kayle’s. So to me? It’s not grasping at straws, it’s using what we’re told in the bios, and the final question about her betrayed and bitter state is more pondering what could be to come inher color story.
I didn't read it like that at all. The dude tried to imprison her, she fought back. Self defense, at least. Trying to prevent him from harming the people with her at most. It's not clear.
: > [{quoted}](name=Disig,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pWLqKMzt,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-02-21T20:58:57.611+0000) > > I dunno I think the ghost bride one was intentional. > > But yeah her GRRR face is funny and I don't think that's supposed to be. It's like Riot is trying to tell us "remember, she's bad! Watch out!" and we're like...lol k. I don't mind the face in Ghost Bride, but it blows her head up WAY bigger than her actual body, making her look like a bobblehead.
Lol, yeah that's fair. I was just thinking of it as some kind of comedic homage to old horror movies. Not sure if that's intentional or not though.
Pyrop33 (NA)
: Bewitching Morgana Edit
I like the change of the lower sings to match her upper ones but the dress was fine the way it was.
: TY for the Morgana VU but, I am a tad disappointed with Exiled Morgana
You're definitely not alone. I've seen several threads asking to change the particle effects. And I agree. I love how they reworked her Exiled skin but the spells look terrible. If they don't change them then I'm never going to use that skin again. It's just too jarring. And it's too jarring thanks to how bright they made the purple. That purple is perfect for her original skin but just...bad for Exiled. I too am a support main and I am just DIGGING Morgana lately so I am so super excited for the release though.
: Can we discuss Morgana's emotive face?
I dunno I think the ghost bride one was intentional. But yeah her GRRR face is funny and I don't think that's supposed to be. It's like Riot is trying to tell us "remember, she's bad! Watch out!" and we're like...lol k.
: I don't understand why Demaciaians are revering them though... nothing in the backstory made them into anything that seemed worth worshipping and building statues of them... Kayle rained down fire - yay lets worship her and use her likeness cuz it destroyed our city? I mean, I guess I can see how they could take that as an angel of justice and make it logical - but the whole story just didn't feel that way from how abruptly it went from 'RAIN THAT FIRE DOWN' to 'and so they worship statues of her' .. :/
Yeah the end there baffled me. Like...the one person helped people was forgotten? What? But the one who set the city ablaze is worshiped? Huh? It all happens WAY too fast.
: This was exactly the core of my argument against the recent storytelling which victims are currently Kayle and Demacia as a whole. I’m saddened though that the only reply we got on the matter is that, apparently, making it so Kayle would be relatable too would mean having “2-dimensional characters”. Then Scathlocke derailed the discussion into a Darth Vader apology which found himself again proven wrong in his views. I wish we could have a constructive discussion about it but this then needs both parties to engage in it. Something I’m not seeing from Riot writers.
Yeah, this is what worries me most. I've yet to see them respond to anyone giving a well thought out argument in an intelligent way. They just side line the conversation into something they think they can win. Which is troubling. Like, this shouldn't be a win lose thing, it should be a learning and development thing. Yet Scathlocke just seemed to me to be very defensive and didn't want to listen to anyone.
: With what is happening in Demacia... Where do you think they will fall? Morgana is no longer just rebellion, so it's not like she'll immediately side with Sylas. What's also funny is, if Kayle is aligned with Demacian standards with what's going on...Sylas will be punished. Morgana, on the otherhand would try to reason with Sylas cause of the pain he felt. The fear, all of it. But...would she actually agree? Or would she just sympathize but still seek for him to stop? Both Kayle and Morgana has lines for Sylas and they appear to be in agreement that he is wrong in some manner, but while Kayle would baptize him, Morg may just try to convince him otherwise which...honestly will fail. Sylas is so far at the moment that he will refuse Morgana and try to use her magic to further his gain. **Note: I think Sylas is one of those people where his morality got grayed super hard by the Recruit story he had. Everyone says Demacia is evil now but kind of ignored the fact that the one guy who seems good now in contrast...dismissed and emotionally disowned a child of his kind (mage) cause he won't kill. And the moment the child did kill (even though the noble seems bigotted enough), Sylas praised the murder and was overjoyed with the killing. It wasn't a "This...is a heavy toll that must be done. One noble at a time." No. It was full on "REVENGE! YES! THEY WILL PAY FOR THEIR TREATMENT OF ME AND THE REST!" Even though he spoke to the kid as if that's the case, Sylas's inner joy spoke...differently.
Just because Sylas is bad doesn't make Demacia any less bad.
: I’m looking forward to seeing how their color stories play out, but I do like how they are like a...duality? Is that the word? They are two halves of the same coin. Justice without compassion to temper it becomes what we see of Kayle. Cold, hard, unforgiving. You broke the law, you pay. However, pure compassion without a proper sense of justice, can be seen as soft. A man could plead with Morgana, and she might protect him from Kayle, but if he did it insincerely and goes off and does it again, would Morgana actually do something about it? What we see of Morgana isn’t always the greatest though. Did she really have to kill Ronas? Did she have to “[shackle] him with dark flame until he fell to the floor, dead”? Did she do anything to stop the riot that was happening in the city? By Morgana’s VO, there’s also an interesting thing to notice. She’s often bitter, depressed sounded. She speaks of a broken heart and betrayal. Who knows what all she will do in such a state? It also makes me think of part of a passage from my faith, “Seek justice. Love mercy.” We need both, each tempered by the other. Kayle and Morgana seem to be embodiments of that idea.
The problem is you are asking too many questions that SHOULD have already been answered by the bio. We shouldn't be guessing and grasping at straws to try and find something "bad" that Morgana does. Especially since with Kayle we get it clear as day.
Zapzya (OCE)
: The problem with bios is that they don't give a good impression of the champion. They are a short recount of their life, but we never get a full grip of their personality. When they release, they will probably get some colour stories which will paint a better picture of how they are. Hopefully they take this opportunity to show the dark side of Morgana.
This is what I am hoping for. Their bios are just..lackluster. I guess they wanted them to be a general telling of their story but I feel like they should have taken the time to write it as an actual story. We don't really see their personalities and because of that we have no real idea of what they are like outside of very broad strokes that do not do them justice.
: You really don't have to get all the skins and that's fine, you know
> [{quoted}](name=Dragon Zyra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7YzwQVP1,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-02-21T18:30:21.017+0000) > > You really don't have to get all the skins and that's fine, you know Sure but by saying that at all you're really missing the entire point.
: I mean, good and bad is relative, I agree that they can do a better job of highlighting the downsides of Morganas actions. But 'oppressive' regimes aka authoritarian government is certainly not a universal bad, its a kind of government that plenty of people support. And lawful stupid is usually just an insult that doesnt really mean anything other then you telling us you don't like extremism, but I am sure plenty of people like extreme lawful good that makes up the Inquisitor/Paladin archetype.
I would say tell me of ONE authoritarian government that is considered good, but then I remember that there are people in Russia and China who love their governments and I am biased as an American. So okay, that's fair. However, if we use Demacia as an example, I don't think anyone would say what they do to mages is right. Nor would I say that people reading Kayle's bio would say oh, she's a fine example, killing people for being unlawful in ANY way! No, her story makes her come off as brutal, absolute, and unable to see that the world IS shades of grey. Same with Demacia. With their current lore reboot I actually don't see anything that makes them redeemable after seeing what they do to mages. This is the problem with their writing. They say they want a grey area, but they're not creating a grey area. Edit: I think what I actually meant was a totalitarian government. Not authoritarian. If that helps.
: Hmm ok. Gotcha. I don't know, I feel like while there are a lot of characters with underdeveloped lore, I also feel like there are some characters with really cool lore that shows what the character is about. My personal favorite is Ekko.
Sure there is. They're working on everyone and it's going to take time. The problem is that some of the current lore they've been reworking they did in a way that doesn't add depth, which seems counter intuitive to me.
: To be honest this sort of thing they've been doing makes me nervous about what they might do when they finally update Sona's lore, even if I want new lore really bad. I don't want them to turn my character into this morally gray blob like half the roster, especially since I find it hard to believe Sona would stand anywhere but on the "good" side.
I love Sona as well, but I always saw her as a neutral person. She loves to play music and loves to use her music to kill people in an arena where they don't actually die (old lore). I don't really see it as good or bad really. Maybe the fact that she wants to inflict pain on other is a bit...crazy...but it was in a setting where she her actions weren't permanent other then whatever was being disputed outside of the battle. But hey, one day she will get a lore update (maybe a visual rework? God I want them to rework Pentakill Sona) so hopefully they do something cool with that.
: We DO have champions that are good, pure of heart, heroes.... {{champion:201}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:61}} And we DO have champions that are purely evil and that exist only to torment and cause pain...{{champion:56}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:202}} Like, I'm really not quite sure what more you want here?
I think OP wants depth. Depth is what's missing from the "morally grey" Riot is going for at the moment. Or at least that's how I feel.
Rebonack (NA)
: I'll say I don't mind so much Kayle being pushed toward the Justice side of things and Morganna being pushed toward the Mercy side of things, but I really would have liked it if the portrayal of Justice and Mercy hadn't been so one dimensional. The best of justice is creating a world were people feel safe, where people are encouraged to be the best person they can possibly be by allowing them to grow and flourish and improve. The worst of justice is creating tyrannies where people fear for their safety, where people are stifled by the terror of what will happen if they step out of line. The best of mercy is giving people a second chance to those who are truly deserving, of having empathy for the imperfections of humanity and understanding that everyone fails sometimes. The worst of mercy is allowing injustice and evil to run rampant; a deep cruelty to those who are victimized by it. The new Kayle/Morg lore is only showing us the negative side of justice and the positive side of mercy. If Riot really wanted to show us living, breathing, three dimensional characters, then we need to see the good and evil of both ends of the spectrum.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: Am i the only one that thinks most of those stories feel... experimental? Like they came from novice writers who might have talents, but those are not yet refined and they lack the knowledge necessary to make engaging stories about good and evil? I think it stems from how they built the world after that terrible retcon. It's like they went "Ok, let's make the characters more diverse and inclusive!" (morally of course, i'm not talking about politics or sexuality), and then kinda lost their way, going a bit Mary Suish, which is a mistake many young authors tend to make. I mean, was removing Varus's family before he jumped on the bad choice of accepting the evil he was supposed to protect, and making him into what he is now, a fuse of two lovers and a darkin, really made to "advance the storyline"? Or was it a way to convey the authors feelings? I have nothing against morally ambiguous characters, but sometimes simplicity is better than complexity. I mean, look at Braum (unless he was changed too, and i was unaware of that). He's THE fictional hero, a legend everyone loves. He protects the weak, and even if someone wronged him, he's quick to forgive them and he's able to even forge friendships with his previous enemies. What's wrong with white side character like that?
To a degree, I agree. Some of the stories are well written and the characters given depth. But then others are just...flat. I think the whole "we want morally grey" thing fails when you try so hard to get morally grey you forget to create depth. And I think that's more of what's going on right now.
: A Critique on Scathlocke/Lore Team's view on Good and Evil
My problem isn't that they want to go morally grey. My problem is they seem to be absolutely blind to the fact that they aren't writing morally grey. Demacia is clearly an oppressive state, which is bad. Kayle is clearly over the top lawful stupid, which is bad. Morgana actually wants to help people. This is clearly good. We don't SEE any motivation in Morgana to make us think she's even evil aside from her edgy look and some snarky voice lines. The grey area they may be going for here is just not believable, if it's there at all. But they did a decent job with Noxus. Here we have a military state, conquerors. you'd think, damn that's bad. But in the stories we get we see that places under Noxus rule DO see an improvement of quality of life. It may be based off of might is right and the strong should survive, but there are good things that come from it. THAT is morally grey. Killing and imprisoning mages in a world where we KNOW magic is a thing that can be good or evil is inherently BAD. Demacia has no redeeming qualities at this moment. And what I find worse is that in discussions like these when people bring this up the comments just get ignored. They only seem to reply to the people they can easily counter argue. To me this either means they know and don't want to bring attention to it, or they're thinking about it and considering what to do in future stories. I'm really hoping in future stories they show us more of the grey for Demacia. It really needs some redeeming qualities highlighted. Not individual characters, but the country as a whole. Showcase the quality of life of the citizens, the more fair laws. What is Demacia doing that is actually good? Because right now we're not seeing it. As for inherently good and evil characters, I think that has merit so far as they are well written. Black and white characters CAN be well written and not cliche. And it worries me that thus far by their statements, Riot doesn't seem to think that's true. I agree with OP that they shouldn't shy away from good/evil characters, especially since by doing so they'll end up alienating part of their player base. You can have good writing and good/evil.
man of tin (EUNE)
: "I wear armor on everything except a large portion of my torso where most of my vital organs are."
Stab my kidney, I dare you!
: New Exiled Morgana really needs her particles recolored. Purple doesn't work with her colors.
Indeed. I have this skin and if the particle effects don't change I will NEVER use it again. It just looks so bad.
: It's honestly pretty ridiculous that Kayle is getting six wings. Obviously, 12 wings would be closer to appropriate. Has there even been any serious discussion about whether she should be composed entirely of feathers?
The icon at the top should be her, except all bright white sing and triple them.
Nixtarma (NA)
: This feels like a sensible way to tie them in to the game world. Demacia still has very little redeeming features, though.
Yeah, Demacia seems to just be getting shittier and shittier with every added story lately.
Terozu (NA)
: That ending quote with Kayle and Morg.
I'm having trouble seeing Morgana's "justice" though. She seems more redemption then justice. There's something I'm not able to put my finger on and it bugs me.
: All women are lesbians. Trust me, that's what I learned on the internet.
Or they're actually men. Don't forget that!
Jikker (NA)
: I can't get past the the maroon unitard look. There's no armour there, she's just really exposed for no reason. There's some very cool aspects to the design, but it doesn't really feel like Kayle and the helmet just looks awkward on her with that type of armour.
Yeah like, my ladybits are cold just looking at her. Unitards aren't warm from what I remember. I mean, her kit looks amazing, her wings are just OMG awesome but her lack of torso armor looks weird to me.
: "Sex sells" is legitimate as long as it does not hinder character identity/theme/coherence
> but does she embody justice as well as she did before? Is Kayle's identity enriched by her newfound femininity, or is it detrimental? This is the exact question Riot should have asked while they were designing this. Honestly, I don't see her new design embodying justice. But then again, I've always had a hard time seeing spandex as embodying justice. I prefer my Batman in armor (preferably without armor nipples) However, for many spandex is reminiscent of super heroes and hence: justice. This might be what Riot was seeing in this design. Super heroes are hot shit right now and sexy. Imagine you're in marketing, this design on paper looks like a goldmine. But of course that's ignoring Kayle's past reputation completely. She's no longer an armored bulwark. Well, her arms, legs, and head are protected anyway. And it just looks strange to see no other armor on her torso.
Rodsquad (EUW)
: You gotta take away Morde's armor now too
I'd be into that. *waggles eyebrows at Pentakill skin* In all seriousness I do like her skin design wise...but when it comes to her character as we KNEW her it doesn't fit. And I totally get people still want armor angel of justice. I just really don't think Riot is going to change it at all.
: As we've said many times - "good" and "evil" are relative, and we're not aiming for such 2-dimensional tropes anymore.
I get what you're going for, which is an over all less cookie cutter characterization of people. But Kayle and Morgana aren't nuanced still with this rework. You just flip-flopped who was good and who was evil. No one will ever say that someone who only cares for law above all else is good. Just like no one will ever say that someone who cares about the redemption of people is evil. It's still 2-dimensional. Now maybe we just need more story to get what the writers are going for. I'm willing to believe that. But what we've gotten so far is still a two dimensional stereotype. Flip-flopping morality from people who look like they should be on the other side isn't depth.
: Bard ults an enemy...
LMAO this is the BIGGEST problem I've had playing as Bard. You know how many kills I've accidentally prevented for my team with that ult? Caught our Nidalee mid death jump, which looked cool but her prey got away. I cannot apologize enough for that ult. Gonna take some getting used to.
As a support main...it hurts to see so many people grabbing Bard and clearly not know the basics of support. I can't wait till more people understand him and get the new champ smell out of their system.
: As a support the people that really get me angry...
I have to admit unless you play with a thresh or as Thresh frequently, reaction time is going to be slow. It super sucks because that lantern is amazing, but people's first reaction is RUNRUNRUNRUNRUNRUN not, oh hey a lantern... Still if they're not clicking the lantern they really need admit it's their bad and make an effort to pay attention more.
: all of the things posted in this thread is why i play harass heavy champs {{champion:37}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:161}}, and tell my teammates to stay the fuck away until i poke them under 50% and just farm. it seems to work pretty well. i do get the occasional dummy that doesn't understand the concept of a poke support, but im so good with skillshots if they feed i'll just start building ap and wrecking face.
Yeah I've started doing this. Too many games lost because the adc doesn't understand what i am trying to do...even if I explain it. So yeah, ap monstrosity here I come!
: I tell them my heal {{champion:37}} was on cooldown. They tell me to use summoner heal {{summoner:7}} . Why would I have summoner heal? Do I have to heal them every 2 seconds for them to stop dying?
Jeeze, don't you know you're supposed to be an MMO healer and waste all your mana on keeping the adc's health up? Seriously though, friggen hate that. It's like, did you see my summoner spells? Are you even paying attention?
: ADCs who think every poke or snare (I play Karma/Zyra) means "engage now! It's okay that you're at 1/2 HP and they're both at 3/4! They're snared! They can't possibly injure you!" OH! But my all-time favorite. I painfully (as in, it was a chore) help feed Ezreal 5 kills (so he's 5/1), after kill number 5 he says "See (teammate name)! I told you Ez is awesome!" And then goes full ham mode, dying 5 times and ending game 6/7/2
I play a pretty aggressive Sona and poke like mad. not trying to push lane or pressure the adc just trying to get them low and scare them out of lane. but no, adc's be like "stop going in!" when I am at full health with potions and have both enemy adc and support at half health. The pinging...it hurts...
Ahtiz (NA)
Reason #1 why I stop playing ranked after I am ranked. I play support. Try carrying your team as a support. Try winning a game as a support. Basically, if others on your team are not up to par, there's not much you can do. Then I get stuck in Bronze V where all I see are people making horrid mistakes and wont listen and all I can do is pray I get a lucky win. So yeah, I don't bother after I find my initial rank. It's next to impossible to climb the ladder as a support (if you are playing a real support and not a ks ap murder machine). I'd love to see a system that rewards individual effort, though I can see how difficult that would be.
: DJ Sona release sale?
WHEN is it coming out is my question. I'm dying here! i don't care how much it is, she's me favorite champion. But ah...it would be nice for that 40%...
: Why the lore is failing
I joined League 4 or 5 years ago. When the huge lore change came, I quit. I joined Dawngate, loved it for the mechanics and immersive lore, finally found a MOBA I could get fully behind. Then EA happened. So I am back to LoL and I cannot bring myself to remotely care about the lore anymore. I am a huge lore person in every game I play but after the change...I can't do it. When are they gonna change it again? How much are they going to screw it up? One thing I LOVED about LoL was that the players WERE a part of the lore, then Riot kicked us out. It felt betraying. now I'm only playing until another Moba comes out that matches what I loved about Dawngate.


Level 44 (NA)
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