: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JAqBBxP,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-27T08:17:13.628+0000) > > Ashe... hasnt been buffed for some time, to my knowledge? She got a small buff either this patch or last, i thing Q activation is an AA reset now? Might not be exactly that but it's something in that vein
She’s been consistently getting buffs patch after patch which has turned her into a solo queue machine. She has no losing match ups this current patch and is quite oppressive in lane, when getting a lead early is everything in this meta. She also synergies very well with the predominant support picks this patch such as nautilus, blitz, and Leona, because of her arrow that can either start the cc chain, or just enhance it to make it better. That is why her win rate has been 54+ for many patches. She’s been like this since her auto attack reset buff on her Q/ buff to her slow on her auto attacks, which was completely not needed, as she was already strong prior to that.
: What Do YOU Want Karma to Become?
As a Diamond 2 Karma main, I definitely agree that Karma has been in problematic state for quite some time. She’s had a lot of power given and stripped from her especially this season, but ultimately, I feel like so much more has been taken away from her than what has been given. As such, I really like the options you list here, as I think they will bring a little more back into Karma’s kit, since she is definitely not strong in this current meta at all. I personally think that giving her the damage component on her Mantra shield back would be good, as this would be a good buff to make sure Karma doesn’t fall off too hard in the late game, where she can become quite useless if not smashing her opponent. This would allow for Karma to have mantra back up a little more quickly, as well as sufficing for the shield that is given to the allies that you didn’t cast the shield on being so god awful. I also agree that implementing the dragons into her kit would be super cool, but I feel like that’s a lot of work that Riot wouldn’t be willing to undergo, as this would mean reworking her visuals. Really great post though. Definitely made me think about all the different directions Riot could go with Karma!
Rioter Comments
: Hook skill shots are harder to land than most other skill shots in the game. (leona's E isnt a hook its a root and dash)
I mean yeah, sure they're harder to land than say a Karma Q, but they essentially get you a kill or flash every time you do land it, whereas (let's just take Karma for example), would have to hit her Q on someone around 8 or 9 times before she puts someone in kill range after health pots. So yeah, they're harder to land, but the reward is astronomically high, which is what has prompted me to create this thread in the first place.
CurS1VE (NA)
: man shut the fuck up lol would you rather be in Ardent Meta Again? like you guys are prisoners of the moments for sure and hey maybe you enjoyed the ardent meta and thats what you want to see more of but it's fairly obv that Riot saw that ppl didn't like that meta at all and so they heard players and instead went in the exact opposite direction! So if you are against Hook supports are you for a more Ardent + Enchanter focused game? You should understand what it is you are asking for if Hook supports are poor then enchanter supports become the thing to play right? or possibly mage supports; hook supports are still only engaging on 1 person, if you get something with a ardent meta again you are instead forgoing any sort of engage for some bullshit slow scaling (i picked a champ that scales better even tho i'm worse) sorta stuff and most ADC that do scale hard become less and less skill based and also become stronger team fighters as the game progresses Honestly i don't really care if you are higher elo than me, you just sound like a prisoner of the moment and the fact that you sound like that just lets me know you are on some form on tilt because of something that happened to you and because of that I think your topic is even more ridiculous then the "Lets add a I'm Drunk Button". The fact that you cannot actually see +/- anymore is already a pretty telling sign and even if you try to phrase things rationally I think it's clear you aren't being rational because if you were you would've already seen what I brought up who btw I am only Silver and I see it pretty clearly. So yea basically shut up
First of all, you didn't read all of my post, because I clearly said that I do not want to go back to the ardent meta. So please read all of what I have to say before you make erroneous comments. Also, I'm not on a tilt streak, in fact, I've made it to Diamond with almost a 65% win rate, but go ahead and think what you want. Oh and if you're silver, I'm sorry, but I think you still need to understand more of the fundamentals of this game before you start attacking my views on very valid concerns. What I have addressed can be backed up by data and numbers, engage/hook supports are just too strong, that's that. Everyone bitched and complained when Janna was running around with a 53% winrate during the ardent meta, and what happened, she got nerfed (along with every other shield supports), and now shes at a more appropriate power. So yeah, now I'm doing the same for when hooks are blatantly overtuned now. I think if you understood the actual matchups more you'd understand, but data and numbers are very frowned upon by people in this community. Yikes
: Huh, so the actual somewhat fun supports that roam and impact the game should be nerfed and instead we should all just play enchanters, Okay.
Lol I didn't say that. Clearly you didn't read all of my post. I'm just asking that they create more windows for hook supports to be puinished because of the damage, tank stats, engage, gap closers, and other extremely overloaded tools that they have. Once again, look at the support matchups, because then you'll see how disgusting hook supports are.
: 1. Already reverted the Thresh cd buffs, read the patch notes. 2. Thresh has been weak. Ardent meta. Read about it. Or before they changed AfterShock to give a bunch of base ARM/MR 3. Enchanter mains don't have an opinion. Learn how to play the game instead of expecting other people to carry ur ass every game.
First of all, his cds were lowered twice throughout season 8/9. They reverted the cd changes from the second buff, not the first. so you should read the patch notes. Second of all, Thresh wasn't even weak in the ardent meta. He just wasn't top tier like he has been for the entire season 8 or 9. He has literally been in the top three best supports for two seasons and you don't think that he's too overtuned. ok lul Lastly, enchanter mains don't just sit their and get carried every game. From that comment alone I can just tell you know nothing about support lol. Clearly you didn't read anything about the numbers I stated in the post or you would know that enchanters have to work super hard just to even lane into hook and engage. Just look at the matchup numbers, perhaps it will enlighten you a little on the role of support.
: > [{quoted}](name=DivineMantra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KpjLsWb5,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-09-26T05:48:44.074+0000) > So what should Riot do about these changes? Well, I propose two things. For one, and I think the entire league community will agree with me on this, for the love of god, nerf aftershock. Its the only rune since the new rune release that hasn't seen any sort of appropriate nerf, while pretty much every other rune was tuned down somewhere along the season. It provides way too much tank stats (which is then followed up by damage), for it to be considered balanced. Additionally, all of these hook supports synergize so well with the keystone that it just adds an unnecessary level to their power. Second, just straight up revert some of the changes made to these hook supports. Here are somethings that I think they can do. > I disagree. Aftershock is one of the few defensive runes that actually can save a tank in League of Oneshot. The nerfs need to happen in damage across the board before Aftershock gets hit. Conquerer definitely needs to be deleted first as well. > {{champion:53}} Blitz: Whoever came up with the range buff on his Q should really be called into question for how they do their job. This change is blatant gross negligence for support players. No one wanted, asked, or needed this change. Just revert it. > Yes, this is a stupid change. Blitz was fine, it's part of Riot's "Change for the sake of Change" mentality. > {{champion:412}} Thresh: Can we talk about how Thresh has never been considered weak since I've started playing League three years ago? I'm not saying he should be considered "weak," but it's just crazy to me how he's never really been out of the meta for the 3 seasons I've played through. Revert the cd buffs that you guys gave to his hook a while back. This will make sure Thresh players have to think about when they are throwing out the hook, as opposed to just spamming it like they do now. > As an ADC Thresh main, when I support/adc against an enemy Thresh it's really laughable how easy it is to punish the Q-spammer playstyle. I wouldn't mind his Q cooldown being reverted like you said, but if you really want to balance Thresh, make it so that enemies can take his lantern. Oh, trying to save your Caitlyn who has 5hp left? Well shit, looks like the enemy Alistar just took your lantern, and you's bout to get trampled son. > {{champion:111}} Nautilus: I know they "nerfed" his Q damage a few patched ago, but that was a joke. He still does way too much damage for how easy it is to land a hook (or even just point click for an ult). A damage nerf on his ultimate or Q (probably both) would probably be the best way to fix nautilus. > Nautilus never belonged in the bot lane as anything more than a niche support pick. His E cooldown buffs from a few seasons ago need to be reverted, and more of his power needs to be focused into his W. > {{champion:555}} Pyke: Nerf the amount of gold that he gives to his allies. It's honestly insane how sometimes Ill spectate games with pyke in it, and he winds up having more gold than the enemy AD, simply because of his ability to generate SO much gold. Also, tone down the healing that he gets from the grey health. It's literally impossible to poke him down. > Ban this boi every game until an R change goes through. Execute+Aoe+range+reset+lethality+ADscaling far too strong on his R alone, and his kit otherwise is still disgustingly good. I even ban Pykes on my team, because they're not fun to play with or against. > {{champion:89}} Leona: Honestly, Leona is probably the most balanced one on here. Don't get me wrong, she is very strong, but I think only a slight nerf is probably needed for Leo. I would say probably lower the damage on her W a little, or increase the cd on her Q. The fact that her Q is on a 5 second cd at the start of the game is a little too strong in my opinion. > The change for her was unnecessary, BUT she works well to counter the other hook champions on this list. Additionally, picking up Alistar when you normally play enchanters is a great idea for countering -ANY- of the members of hook city.
However, I would argue that aftershock is the problem contributing to the "League of Oneshot." You not only get a bountiful amount of tank stats so that you can survive when going in, but you then get damage followed up by it. This is why the best change to aftershock would probably just take away the damage completely, as you would still have your tank stats when going in, but the amount of damage that you'd be putting out would be much lower. But that's just what I think
Naon (NA)
: The biggest offender is they are hooking people while abusing aftershock and tanking everything after pulling someone in. It's such a stupid mastery that offers them dmg on top of their already tanky base stats with a pull. Add that to someone like pyke who just hooks and leaps on you to proc his aftershock + stun, and then whoop whoops away to heal up any dmg he might have possibly taken ( and ignite? forget it, his gray health simply just heals a little slower ) Naut does crazy dmg early just by walking around you after hooking you. He can easily 1v1 any adc he pulls into himself. Blitz? Sure you might be able to hide or dodge, but his stupid hitbox is so misleading along with thresh it's still mindblowing how many videos have been uploaded to show how busted these champs hitboxes are and nothing has still been done about it. They also benefit greatly from abusing aftershock. Leona? She has a lot of early game dmg and her being able to clear wards almost instantly if they are set in botlane near her is pretty crazy. She can easily deny vision by resetting her auto when a ward is placed close. She has 3 hard ccs in her kit ( her ult if she smacks you right in the middle ) and she is also very tanky early with aftershock. She can also CC through waves of minions. All these champs should be poked out by enchanters but not many supports are able to get close enough without worry about getting all ined. If an enchanter or squish missteps at all, they are not walking away they are dying. If these tank supports misstep, they have time to respond or their ADC does. Plus the tanks and any other melee range support is given sustain in lane anyways thanks to relic shield still giving a good amount of healing. Enchanters have been nerfed constantly and any utility items they are given have been nerfed numerous times as well. Enchanters are blamed for abusing things like ardent, but that wasn't the fault of the enchanters. It was strictly how stupid champs are now that can compensate on top of the healing an enchanter does. ( most champs now have some sort of blink or reset in their kits that allow them time to reposition if caught out ) Yet there are cheap items an adc or tank can rush to reduce healing in lane from an enchater / adc and not have it hinder them. Early pen items? Dirk. but hardly any adc will build that as a first go to or at all. Mpen? Forget it, at best we get sorc boots early. There isn't much we can do to counter the tanks besides hope that the tanks themselves misplay. That's not really a counter than is it. When you look over the Resolve tree you will find the tree even awards you if youre poked a little. You have things like Second wind which lets you heal after taking a little dmg or even the abiltiy to reduce followup dmg for the next 3 attacks. I have purposely eaten hits on champs that have passive shields just to lose the shield but to proc the healing of second wind so I get more hp back in return. Then walk away to reset the shield. That's just stupid lol.
I completely agree! You said some very interesting and good points. The fact that the tank supports also get sustain makes it borderline impossible to poke them out sometimes. It just feels horrible to play against.
: Eh the problem with hook supports (blitz to be precise) is that they are too polarizing. Blitz will either land a hook and lead to a kill (where the only option the hooked champ had was to burn their mobility) or miss and he will become a single target knock up minion. Thats exactly why i want to flame the shit out of anyone that pick intents a blitz. Too unreliable.
I understand your point. but bltiz only needs to land one or two hooks to be useful. While I have seen some bad blitz players, even the really bad ones manage to at least pick up one or two kills from hooks in lane, and by then, it's pretty much over. There's barely a negative when he misses his hook, and a massive benefit for hitting it, making it too good of an option to reliably lock down kills.
: with the amount of cc ignore abilities lately or untargetable status abilities it's hard for CC supports to protect their adc's. What can you do when you have cc and can't use it? What can a thresh or naut do against charging kled into their adc when he's immune to CC? or Olaf running into enemy team and demolishing any squishy? You just sit there and watch, or flail your cc desperatly trying to achieve something, hoping for a bug that would allow you to do your work. How can you save someone with CC from an invisible threat that deletes your adc in less then a second, when your CC takes more time to even finish it's animation? You can't. CC supports are viable in early games, where you don't have to deal with that bs that makes you obsolete and just a spectator of your lp dropping and adc's blaming you for not protecting them. Current burst + cc ignore meta is why we're losing good old botlane of MARKSMEN+SUPPORT and have ADC+Burst mage, Burst mage + assassin, ap assassin + CC support. ADC's are too hard to defend when litterally anything can oneshot them of make your entire kit osolite, sometimes even both (yasuo and any invis burst like shaco, rengar evelyn) we really need an item that let's us link to our adc's and with a press of a button give them max 1s shield from all dmg. Honestly i think we should start considering Kayle support just to make ADC's wet tissue papers when facing off against burst dmg.
CC supports aren't really supposed to protect their adcs though, they're meant to feed them kills. However, due to the current meta having too much damage, aftershock being too good of a keystone, and the base damage for these supports being so high, it makes them way too good at setting up kills, while having no way to punish a "bad" engage. Honestly, hook support players have gotten so used to having so many overtuned tools at their fingertips that they don't even have to think about going in, because for the most part, there are no "bad" engages anymore. Once you lock down a target, your AD will follow up with enough damage to net the kill, so there's really no downside of going in. Also, the instances you listed are things that even enchanter supports can't deal with either. If kled is charging at my ad, A mantra shield, a janna tornado, nami bubble, wont save them anymore than a blitz hook would, you just have to wait for the ult to be over. Enchanter supports are given cc as well, but its usually soft cc as opposed to the harder cc on hooks. But soft cc isnt enough to consistently peel or set up kills, which is why enchanters are completely outclassed this patch.
: Maybe I'm not effected by this as a Burst Support player but it's this the point? Hook champions are disruptors, they're ment to grab your backline and pull them in for a quick kill enchanters are the backline and priority targets. Besides most enchanters ie; Janna, Lulu, Nami. Have movement speed steroids to avoid hooks and Hard CC to directly respond to a hit hook. And this goes without mentioning how high the base cooldown is of Blitz' Q sitting at a 20 second cooldown from level 1 and 9-10 seconds with max CDR giving you plenty of opportunities to punish Blitz for playing aggressive if he misses.
I agree with you that hook champions do fill that kind of archetype. But when every hook champion has around a 52+ percent win rate (except pyke) and have only 1 or 2 losing matchups, its becomes really hard to actually pick something that can go into these hook supports. It's even worse when you have to pick first, because blind picking an enchanter in this game is just asking for you to get hard countered, whereas with hooks, you can blind pick them every game and almost never find yourself in a bad matchup. Also, yes, hook supports do have long cooldowns early, but around when they start maxing the ability out around 4 or 5, the cd is so low that you really dont have many windows to punish. Its been my experience that you can only really bully these hooks till around level 3. since once they have their full rotation of abilities, you're going to die if you get touched. And even then, poking them early may not even work because of how immensely hook supports increase in power at level 2. The level 2 powerspike for hook supports is insanely deadly, whereas with an enchanter hitting level 2, you can still use this increase in power to maybe find a kill, but it's not even close to the same as other support archetypes. Additionally, sometimes the threat of just having the hook is more dangerous that throwing it out. So smarter blitz players will just use the fact that they have the cd to run up (or wait in the bush) to you so you have to back off, which makes it feel really bad to play against. Also, the fact aftershock is the best rune in the game and syngerizes so well with these champs in the real issue. It's impossible for you to die once it procs, making the engages extremely safe. So there's really no downside to always throwing out your abilities, which is what most of these players do.
: Worst patch ever?
I couldn't agree more. Riot just buffed the champs they wanted to see at worlds, and nerfed the ones they don't want to see. These changes weren't about numbers, because blitz, fiora, and riven were all fine. It's just sad that they don't care about solo queue or actual data anymore.
Sune (NA)
: As another diamond enchanter main, I completely agree how hook champs just feel so bad to play against right now. The game usually doesn't go late enough to "outscale". This forces us to play agressive early, and put 3 points into are damage ability first. We always have to put ourselves in the range of hooks, while the only defense is the minion wave. One hook = death or all sums used. It's playable but really annoying how they can just keep missing and just back off. On top of them all being tanky compared to us, while doing the same or more damage. The only real peeling during the early levels is CCing the enemy adc, Nami Q or Janna Q. It's why those 2 feel so much better than the other enchanters. (Lulu's W range is not safe enough against an enemy ADC, works gr8 for assassins still) Then they just buy mobi boots, and walk up to your face, or bother other lanes/junglers. At this point they'll have CDR, and points put into the ability. So if they miss in lane, the window just gets even smaller. I've played some games where hooks were ultimates lol, for such a high pressure ability I'd think the CD or Mana cost would be higher. Sure it's relatively high at level 1, but janna shield is around the same at level 1. I just ban Naut everygame right now, Thresh added utility is more annoying (since he can do stuff even if he misses), Blitz was the most fair to play against but now they added range, Pyke still has insane regen for w/e reason ontop of gold share.
I completely agree! Part of picking an enchanter is for their ability to peel well late game, but because of the nature of meta, games are pretty much decided by around the mid game. Riot has really killed the idea of waiting to scale up for enchanters because of all the tools engage supports have, but you already know this. Lol If Riot wanted to buff the range on something, it really should have been Lulu W because my god, that champs needs help. XD
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