: literally last patch was "both these champs max their Q first, and use it as their primary damage tool"{{champion:14}} {{champion:236}} "guess which one we're going to hit with straight damage reduction on their Q, and the other one we're going to hit some other obscure abilities."
: Not foreign concept, not specific to Yasuo. Popular champion is strong, let me analyse the situation for 3 months trying to delicately nerf base stats and things that will not hurt them too much. Unpopular champion is strong, let me delete an entire ability for them and reduce their damage from another ability by 40 on all ranks while also increasing ping the player playing them has by 40 automatically.
XeRan0th (EUNE)
: Hi Meddler! Any thoughts on Wit's End? It's only built in some on-hit builds, and even then it's not a priority. Any plans for a buff/adjustment? Also do you intend to rework some of the old/outdated passives like wu/kog/shyvana?
Just a super selfish thought: Give it a ruby crystal component. :^) Let me lick fools with Kench and Wits End, without having to completely sacrifice health early on.
Meddler (NA)
: Possibly we'll need another balance lever to balance out melee and ranged. So far stack duration's been testing pretty well to control that, not opposed to varying number of stacks gained in some way if needed though.
3s does nothing in a skirmish or a fight. It only limits being able to poke someone down to some stacks and then going in with than additional stack on hand. It needs to have charge half as slowly and be half as effective for ranged champions, both healing/true damage conversion, since they also have Last Whisper, which many melee champs can't buy unless they're super lethality based. Follow the example for Grasp, Phage, and Frozen Mallet.
: Shouldn't ranged attacks not give full stack for the new conqueror? The only reason the old fervor worked was because ranged attacks stacked it slower than melee. Otherwise, it will be too strong on marksmen.
This. Ranged champions should always be slightly limited to account for the fact that range advantage is way too strong (you get 2 more AAs minimum at any fight, since if the enemy runs away after bursting their combo, you can AA them twice before they even get out of range). Old fervor also removed spells counting towards the stack, after they tried to add a CD for spells' stack, because it was just too annoying to balance. I heavily dislike the new heal mechanic they added because they already increased the amount of Adaptive Force and how it's easier to proc Conqueror in mid-late game fights, since you don't need to charge it for 4s and you have higher AS/lower CD as the game progresses. Giving more unconditional healing feels off. They shifted Ardent to damage because it was broken to have someone heal without having to buy heal item, albeit this new Conqueror is champion-only. Now you have true damage to break down tanks, but you also have sustain to push them out of lane, which is kind of nuts. TLDR, I'm far more worried about new Conq on ranged champs over melees due to their range advantage and their needs to be a far greater restriction than 3s (examples of good restrictions: Phage, Frozen Mallet, Grasp, etc.)
: Why did Camille get put top only?
Because having a 1.2K range dash, that's also a stun and an AS steroid, at Lv2 means that she can reliably 1v5 and 1v9 the game if she gets ahead. That's why Koreans love their Camille Jungle, since she can basically negate 2-3 AAs of the Jungle Camp, which keeps her healthy too.
: The static cooldown for champions (like udyr) would probably be THE rework to give him. If you increase the lock in time dramatically then he would need massive compensation like the increased max time they can be in his stomach or enemys can be cced. Tahm kench serves no purpose if he isnt SAVING the adc but just replacing which kinda cc they are affected by, if you do the cc tahm kench strat then no one would ever pick him ever he just wouldnt be viable unless massively buffed(which may work tho tbh).
This is what I want the most - either the static cooldown OR increased lock-in timer so ADCs are semi-punished for being caught out. Again, I assume they aren't going to increase the lock-in timer because there's too much room to troll.
: Mobility creep and agency
I'm all for flashier games, IF every champion gets it. Playing an immobile champion in this day and age is painful, as even the tiniest slow cripples you. It's unfair to watch other immobile classes like ADC and Mages get MS on new items but Tanks and Juggernauts only getting mobility with items like Righteous Glory is minimal. DMP's move speed is nice, but we need those instantaneous bursts so it's less kite-able and better for throwing people off track.
20022012 (EUNE)
: You say mages are busted and ADs are weak because spells CAN be AoE, yet you do not realize that currently viable ADs both have plenty of AoE damage and you fail to recognize that ADs can not only deal damage off cooldowns, but faster too because of attack speed. Not only that, they get to heal from dealing damage in a non-convoluted way. You also failed to recognise that the mage class hasn't been viable anywhere but support in a very long time; currently mid lane is inhabited by assassins and divers. Finally, you completely missed the original point, which was that Karthus is indeed counterable by a single item for which he needs 5k gold in order to nullify the defensive part and that by buying it, ADs aren't auto losing due to the tempo loss.
And how many AAs do AD Champions get to use with the AS? They don't. In fights, unless they have huge amounts of AS and a range advantage or low CD dashes or CC, they're not going to be AAing that often. Look at Zed, how many AAs is he going to get off in a combo? 1 or 2? The only person spamming AAs in a fight are Crit ADCs, who have far less AD due to crit item itemization. [Top 14 Mid Laners in term of Tiers](https://gyazo.com/0a8b88f0097c35518ae9fa4254361728) = 11 AP Champions. [Top 14 Mid Laners in terms of Pick Rate](https://gyazo.com/9b033cbeed8d7de7bb4cfa039d91ae17) = 9 AP Champions. I don't care if mages haven't been viable in the past. They're a problem now. It doesn't justify making them strong because they've been doing average in teh past. I don't even know where you're getting the fact that mages haven't been meta. Assassin/divers also include mages. Mobility and CC is a huge factor in what's viable/meta, which many mages have now. And again, you missed the point that not everyone can build MR, especially with the utter shit MR itemization. Mages get 30% CDR from Luden's + Zhonyas, and AP. That's all they need. Zhonyas STILL gives 75 AP, which is higher than most AD items. To say that a Karthus can ult to deal 1250 damage with his ult because of 2 magic pen components and then say "oh man, Zhonyas is 45 Armor, it's not effective." He might've done more if he went Luden's Rabadon's or something, but relative to AD champs, he's still doing far more, while forcing everyone to build MR. This is the same for all mages. Maybe it's been too long for you, but look at this: Zhonya's Hourglass is 96.48% gold efficient without its active. Banshee's Veil is 99.26% gold efficient. Guardian Angel is 84.82% gold efficient without its passive. Mercurial Scimitar is 81.03% gold efficient without its active. Mages have more room for defensive options. This is statistically proven by their gold efficiency, which means that X item has X stats per amount of gold. Making double magic pen readily available for every mages by shifting it from Haunting Guise to Morello was an idiotic decision, especially when you let mages do near true damage with each ability.
20022012 (EUNE)
: AD is more worth than AP, that's the first thing. It's not 25 less damage, unless you want to claim that every AP scaling is 100% and above. Second of all, not only does it have more MR than Zbonyas has Armor, but MR is also more valuable than Armor. Also, yes, I'm going to say that. Zhonya's active not only has to be manually activated, it also leaves you vulnerable. It's a defensive item that is the jack of all trades, winner of none. Situationally, it can be better (against physical damage), but GA is better than Zhonya in that department anyways. Maw ALWAYS does its job. It doesn't out you at risk for using its potential, it encourages you to fight kn the edge. People often overlook how much extra survivability and sustain it gives you, not to mention that even if we were to take your fallacious claim that it is 25 less damage as correct, the passive makes up for it. Back when it had Armor Penetration, it was more or less a must-buy on every AD champion. Offense and defense on an item is very valuable. After all, there is a reason the item costs more, than Zhonya while being in the same category. As for your gold efficiency argument, it is conplete bullshit because we aren't rating basic and advanced items, but finished items. When your argument would be used by others like you're using it, Luden's Echo and BORK would both be shit items.
Because the ability to multi-hit on basically every mage isn't enough. You're effectively applying 75 AP worth of scaling on every target, not just one target. Zhonyas is infinitely more useful than Maw because you completely negate an all-in, whereas Maw just increases the kill threshold for mages by 300. Gold efficiency counts the raw stats of finished items. The fact that mage items are 90-100% gold efficiency JUST from stats, not including their passive/active is ridiculous, especially if you consider that mage actives/passives are strong as shit. Tank actives/passives are one liners. Anyway, I'm done. Considering that you play mages, it'll be impossible to convince you otherwise that mages are systematically busted - with higher damage outputs by being able to hit multiple targets (effectively 2-5x more damage than AD champs, which are mostly single target focused), higher AP per item, lack of MR options that don't gut damage output for other classes, etc. ^All of these are true if you would look at the game and not just sit back citing Riot's equivalency. If mages were 1-on-1, yes, it would be fair, but it's not when most mages have AOE capability.
: Not sure what you mean by too easy to get 600 armor Full build malphite, lvl 18 with the armor rune: {{item:3742}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3075}} results in 584 armor without his passive. If anything it's just as hard to get enough armor, just to have it decimated by cleaver+lord dominiks To be fair to void, it's one of half as many pen options as AD have and until they get it a spectre's cowl can nullify a mage kit (idk why but mr is better vs magic than armor is vs physical)
That Malphite build should have far more armor with his W's passive nearly doubling the armor level when his shield is up. With that build, it would give around 450 armor and then add on another 100-150 armor from base Armor. For Malphite, those items should be around 1050 armor. Lethality isn't as effective as Magic Pen because everyone has a base Armor that's double their base MR. Most champions sit at 100-150 Armor at Lv18. Lethality only has three options - Ghostblade, Duskblade, and Edge of Night. Edge of Night is situational, so it's not rushed all the time. This means that Ghostblade and Duskblade are the only two readily available Armor Pen items. Lethality's also scaling so it starts out at 10 Armor Pen, despite having champions with 57 Armor Level 1, thanks to the Season 8 Armor buffs across the board AND the double armor shards. With 2 Dirks, you only have 20-30 Armor Pen, which increases your damage output far less % wise than magic pen does by lowering your MR from ~40 to near 0, since damage reduction isn't linear. Black Cleaver needs 6 hits to apply the 24% armor reduction, so unless you're Darius, you'll need to expend at least 6 abilities/AAs, just to get them at the 24% armor reduction. Unless you're riven with a Q that can proc 3 stacks of BC from a single ability, even then, it's still hard to proc in a teamfight because you'll be poking down a tank. Magic Pen isn't only on one item like Serrated Dirk - it's on Oblivion Orb and Sorc Shoes, so you can stack it more effectively. Same with Void Staff, the 40% pen is immediate, compared to BC, which is the only thing specific champions can buy. And as I mentioned previously, there's far more armor options than MR options, making magic pen that much more dangerous, especially when base MR is negligible. It's not so much as Spectre's Cowl negating Magic Pen, rather that you must do so. Oblivion Orb and Sorc Shoes are so easily built on any mage that if you don't get MR, they'll inflict 25-30% more damage on you. AD matchups don't have this threat, flat Armor Pen or Lethality isn't readily available AND BC doesn't offer early armor pen in any of its components or flat pen, which is more dangerous early on.
: Actually a full armor build, I think it was {{item:3742}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3047}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3193}} or something. Totalling around 400 armor can be smashed down to 72 by a full lethality/armor shred build of youmoo, edge of night, duskblade, cleaver and lord dominik's. And armor is kinda meant to cancel it out, otherwise tanks wouldn't counter assassins (currently a few re able to pop tanks like talon)
But as of right now, it's far too easy to get 600 Armor, but super difficult to get over 4.5K health unless you build a full health item like Mallet, Cinderhulk, or Warmogs. MR is the opposite - you need 5 Visages to get 300 MR, but most of that is instantly negated by Void Staff.
: Poppy ulted At what point would he puke them out? XD
Right when he gets hit by the ult so the ADC is left alone.
: Went over the math so you can reference in the future Lost 200 when {{item:3194}} replaced {{item:3102}}. Gap shrunk to 150. {{item:3742}} lost 175 hp {{item:1401}} {{item:1413}} 10% bonus health {{item:3190}} 400 HP {{item:3143}} 100 HP {{item:3800}} 250 HP {{item:3065}} 50 HP {{item:3068}} 75 HP {{item:3083}} 200 HP It's actually higher now at 1400 HP. So that's why I can't get 6k hp anymore... Like, a huge help would be increasing final item costs, but then giving better stats. OG warmogs 1000 HP, 500 randuins/visage/deadmans/sunfire, 600 HP glory Edit: MR and armor bonus round! armor=20 {{item:3075}} + 30 {{item:3143}} + 5 {{item:3025}} +20 {{item:3026}} +20 removal of ancient golem = 95 armor lost MR=15 {{item:3102}} + 15 {{item:3065}} + 45{{item:3026}} =75 magic resist lost
Don't forget that Banner of Command was completely removed, so even more MR was removed. Armor should be shifted towards a more health-centric build. It's kind of silly how the amount of armor instantly cancels out any for of Armor Pen/Lethality.
20022012 (EUNE)
: You do realize that when mages go Zhonya rush they lose damage as well? Or are you going to be completely biased and ignore the fact that going a defensive item will and should reduce your offensive potential? And you do realize that Oblivion Orb gives way less effective health than Hexdrinker despite being much more expensive?
It's still 75 AP, 45 Armor, 10% CDR. Sorry if you're normal standard is 90-120 AP per item, which just shows how overtuned the items are, just with raw stats. Mage items sit on 95%-110% Gold Efficiency with just raw stats, while having better passive/actives. Maw is 50 AD, 50 MR 10% CDR (25 less damage, 5 more MR). Are you really going to say that Zhonya's active is worse than Hexdrinkers?
20022012 (EUNE)
: Riot's official scalings are 0.6 AD per point of AP. This would mean that buying Zhonyas would equal to an item having 0.6 * 75 AP AD, or in other words 45 AD. So Maw not only gives more offensive stats than Zhonyas, it also gives you more utility - since Zhonya's provides Armor which is less valuable than Magic Resist, and it can have no effect if used incorrectly, while Maw can ALWAYS be used to its full potential. I won't even comment on the other stats its passive gives when triggered, as well as having a better build path. It doesn't even lack the CDR part. And lastly, ADs can buy GA as well, while Mages are not encouraged to spend money on AD. So no, Maw does not make your ADC trolling, if your ADC plays something other than Lucian and Kaisa, that's trolling, otherwise just play a mage bot and be done with it. Riot never wanted to dictate the meta but to let the players decide what is best in certain situations, and only change a champion if there is an inherrent problem with them that makes them too strong or too weak at what they should be doing based on their kit. It all comes down to whether or not you want to play what is strong. If you don't, then you can't complain that a whole class is weak just because the champs you play are absolute garbage.
It doesn't matter what Riot's official scaling is. What happens in game is what matters. Mages hit 2 targets with their AOE abilities, which many mages have, and they DOUBLE the damage output of a melee. AND they don't lose much by going Zhonyas. This is on top of the fact that many AP items give 75+ AP (Spellbinder gives 200 at full charge, Rabadon's increases everything by 25%, Rylai's give 90 AP and 300 health). Riot's scaling don't account for multi-target damage, only the raw value of AP/AD. To build Hexdrinker 2nd on an ADC is the equivalent of putting yourself 1200g behind your core items, which means the enemy ADC already has a 1200g advantage - this is assuming we're talking about crit ADCs. If you made a Lucian go BORK, Hexdrinker, and Phage, he's infinitely weaker than a Lucian with BORK and BC. It's not a matter of whether they have the option to build defensively, it's that they have to OR they die. Yes they could continue their main core item build, but mages then do close to true damage with Oblivion Orb's and Sorceror's Shoes's magic pen, which again, doesn't sacrifice much since they get health and they get early game presence by effectively increasing their base damage output by 25% with those two items alone.
20022012 (EUNE)
: There is this thing called Maw
And who can buy Maw without sacrificing or delaying their core items? Your ADC is trolling if they get Maw and cuts their damage output in teamfights by a lot, effectively throwing their purpose for picking that champ, which is to scale. That's literally why mages are in the bot lane now - ADCs don't have a mid game damage output that exceeds mages and mages can build defensively without sacrificing any offensive stats because Zhonyas and Banshee's give over 75 AP each.
: An extra tit bit on items. Tanks have lost 850 hp and 55 armor through items nerfs since season 4
Jesus christ. For the armor, I don't care about the 55 armor because there's over 1100 armor worth of items in League. But that 850 health loss is disgusting, if those numbers are true. When Bruiser and AP Items give close to the same amount of health as Tank Items (Sterak's Gage - 450, Sunfire - 425) and even more damage (Rylai's - 300 Health, 90 AP). That's a problem. Tank items might be "cheaper," but because we have 6 item cap, we only operate at ~400% gold efficiency additively (80% per item), while mages operate at ~500% gold efficiency in terms of raw stats (95%+ per item), that's a problem mid-late game and contributes heavily to the damage creep, since it's so inefficient to build defensively and waste a slot to do so - you either build offensively or you're a dead weight. It's actually quite pathetic.
: I can get behind this gloriously well reasoned proposal. What if, with an empowered Q he could Q+W an ally? > Tank Item Adjustments - start killing the overabundance of armor and replace with health, which is easier to shred through. Tanks want Health/CDR. We have way too much Armor. So much this... tank items are so cost inefficient it's laughable Dang now I wanna make one of these for Nautilus
QW an ally would be way too strong. It's a 600 unit save. Definitely not. monkaS. Tank Items are 80% gold efficiency at the moment and their passives/actives fall WAY behind compared to Bruiser, ADC, Mages, and Assassins. Besides the shift to make items more health-centric, I want items that can mimic Volibear's E, which would make the tank role far more interactive since you can block people going for your carries. Just having that knockback would be SOOOOOOOO nice. Voli's E and Poppy's W are what I consider to be fair warden-like abilities. There needs to be more of these.
SanKakU (NA)
: I have to admit, after reviewing your post again, him getting a cooldown refund on his W if he eats a minion would be really cool and make a lot of sense. Technically he gets a refund but it's scaled very poorly. 19 seconds cooldown at level 1 likely doesn't feel very good and when it's swallowing enemy CHAMPIONS giving him the 8 second cooldown it may feel oppressive. What if the cooldown was the same at all levels and he only gets a cooldown reduction if he swallows minions? While you're at it, let swallowing allied minions do something. What, I don't know, but a little extra complexity probably wouldn't be so bad. Adding in the ally has been swallowed recently restriction could make sense as a way to keep reduced cooldowns at level 1 in line.
I'm the most sad about his minion CD refund because it bugs out half the time and it doesn't give the CD if the minion dies right as you devour it, so you lose Devour for 30 seconds, which is idiotic. You can't ever devour a minion below 60 health and if the majority of the wave is targetting that specific minion. * Solution: They need to add an invulnerability to the minion when you devour the minion and hold the minion to avoid this problem. I'd be fine with reduced minion CD if he swallows minions. Now that I think about it, another way to decrease reliance on W is to give E a reason to max it, so that W is on a 28s CD. * The movespeed per stack per rank on E would be nice after Lv10 to avoid early impact in top lane. * You could make E 70-100% damage conversion of grey health and then 30-90% grey health to actual health from Rank 1-5. This means that Tahm loses out 12% max health damage, but can actually sustain in lane. Of course, this would also lead to sandbagging of lane and fights since Tahm would just be Pyke, where he runs in, tanks damage, runs out, and then walks back in 5 seconds later with 90% health. It's not fun, so probably not 90%. Again, just throwing out a number, but Tahm's E right now might as well not have the healing component and just remain as on-demand grey health because the heal only turns 100 damage into 11 health as of right now.
: As Rumble main, I'm ok with itemization, and I prefer to melt enemies with ult, rather than being tanky. This in my normal build {{item:3165}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3116}} situational vs immobile adc and mages, you can basically send them back to base just by R with it. Also you forgot{{item:3152}}
SanKakU (NA)
: > It's either this or making Tahm forcefully spit out his allies if you hit him with a hard CC. With so many CC options in game, this would make W more counterable. Give him a lot more HP than 30 (WTF LOL) and add that too and I'll be pleased both playing as him and against him.
It would be the funniest thing ever to see a Lee kick Tahm and then Tahm vomits out and leaves his ADC behind.
: I like these changes, I hate tahm with a burning passion and to be honest these would make him much more fair to play against, the only thing i would hate about tahm if these changes went through is the frequency of his stuns with Q. His stuns are ridiculous, even the slow on his Q is.
I honestly want them to completely turn W into an offensive tool because not many Tahm mains give two flying fricks about the actual damage. Being able to W allies is such a problem that the Balance Team's just slowly chipping away at Tahm's E and R capability. They can't even nerf the Q because it's literally Tahm's only ability that isn't conditional (W needs 3 stacks and E needs to take damage). It's not fun for either side where Tahm just gets turned into a Devour Bot Mid and Late Game because it's just so god damn hard to devour an enemy. We've had theories in Tahm Mains about adding MS towards anyone who has stacks, which would make it easier to chase them down mid-late game, but I think that would just make Tahm Top that much more annoying. Again, I don't want my frog to be meta at all - It means that I can't play him. * It could work if they added this to his E and the MS only kicks in at Rank 3-5, so you wouldn't get this until Lv10, which also sacrifices ~10% damage on his W from maxing E second, or at X minutes (~18-25 minutes).
: The problem with that is that it opens up a lot of stupid unintentional Jungle picks. You'd be boosting hyper niche picks like Karthus Jungle into actually viable and reintroduce more opportunities for laners whose mechanics are toxic in the Jungle to Jungle (think Ekko or Camille). EDIT: Wait just checking, did you mean buffing the Jungle items or just using live values, because live values don't catch up to Jungle camps already. If you meant buff, you find the problem I pointed out, if you don't mean it, you're still dealing with the problem Yenn pointed out.
Oh no. I wanted Jungle Camps to take longer to clear and so that they'll damage you more early on and delay jungle interference in lane. Camille Jungle already reaming Korean Jungle because of her Lv2 Hookshot engage and she's picked quite often. She'd be one of the champs that I'm suggesting to target about being gank heavy, since she'd have to deal with a couple of more AAs worth of damage from the jungle camp, which prevents her from ganking mid Lv2, clearing a camp for some sustain, and then ganking top or mid again. Unintentional Jungle Picks might occur, but it would reduce the overall impact of the Jungle role on laners, especially when damage levels have massively increased since Season 4 due to the introduction of keystones and damage runes. You can't really nerf the damage levels of runes beyond a certain amount, unless you completely rid runes, so I thought a way to minimize their impact on lanes would be to force them to spend longer in the jungle.
Alzon (NA)
: The first camp is the one that’s leashed, so the increase in overall camp durability would be almost unnoticeable for the first camp even though it’s highly impactful over several more camps. So your level two ganks will happen a full second later, and level three ganks will happen about twelve seconds later. Powerfarmers would feel it even more. They’d reach level six anywhere from thirty to sixty seconds later - and that’s if they weren’t invaded by a ganking jungler who got a lead because he only needs to clear a couple camps every now and then to stay relevant.
Leashers have to leave at 1:38 to get to lane on time and avoid losing XP - that's typically before the camp dies. The 100-200 health would still force them to hit the camp a few more times, no? A ganking jungler would be lower health as a result of the camp's increased durability, so they can't willy nilly invade as before.
Alzon (NA)
: Even more of a reason to not spend time taking camps and chain gank instead.
Well, this adds around 10 second to the first clear time so laners should hit Lv3 before the junglers, which is what Riot's trying to cripple. And if they don't take the camps, getting counterjungled hurts a bit more since the XP isn't negative. It even helps with Lv2 ganks slightly because the first camp takes longer to kill.
Shiwah (EUW)
: ***
Likewise, why would tank mains ask for a class that's tankier than them 1v1, do more damage, etc. Tank mains are dead over here cuz bruisers that go Triforce Titanic or Triforce Sterak's are tankier than they are and do more damage + Conq makes building armor items moot, when tank items are already 80%-85% gold efficiency, despite having few meaningful and interactive passive/actives.
Shiwah (EUW)
: ***
Why would tank mains ask for Darius, Morde, Garen to be stronger? Tanks benefit nothing from it. Don't just pin everything on tanks because "omegalul tanks don't have brains."
Yenn (NA)
: This would just reduce the viable jungle pool to ~8 champions, all of which would be the ones that are currently the strongest, and anything but the top would no longer be able to even clear the jungle. This is how the jungle was in past seasons; you'd normally have to recall after your first clear (if you can even finish it)
Wouldn't the sustain from Machete and Talisman help with that? With something like 100-200 health, you force the jungler to AA 1-2 times more, which adds 2-3 seconds per camp. You also have smite healing you, which was added in Preseason of Season 7.
Rioter Comments
Krayzie (EUNE)
: What is balancing team thinking?
Sunfire just needs to be tuned back to be more health heavy, less armor heavy (600 health, 20 armor). There's already too much armor in game and AP items give mages into 2.5-2.6K health, even without RoA, is a problem. They need to better separate and distinguish classes from each other: Tanks squishy and some damage early, damage falls off mid-late game. Mages should pump out damage and be squishy if you get on them - no game ends well when mages are hard to kill, even at melee range. Assassins should be extreme damage on 1 target only. ADC pump out consistent damage with their range advantage, squishy if you get on them. Bruisers are a hybrid between Assassins and ADCs, not overwhelming assassins in terms of damage late game + tankiness. Junglers - less impact on lane by increasing jungle camp health instead of the nerfing XP so they take longer to kill the camps, which delays impact in lane.
Nhika (NA)
: I think it would be easier to just bring us back the stats we wanted. Global increase in movement speed by 3% Global base attackspeed increased by 15% Armor and magic resist increased by 13 and 9(?).
Armor was largely compensated already at the beginning of Season 8. We're just missing 13 MR as of right now, which is why double magic pen is such a problem - mages basically deal true damage with Oblivion Orb and Sorc Shoes, while having a very flexible build path (they get AP/Health/CDR so easily), unlike other classes.
Alzon (NA)
: Pretty solid. Good guide for beginners. Good stuff: * Bugs listed. * Combos are great. * Ult cancel is a vital tip. * Standard, effective runes and items. Some key issues: * No Darius, Urgot, Aatrox, Irelia, Tryndamere, or Viktor matchups. * No guide to splitpush Sion. Only mentions it when saying teamfighting is better, which is not always true. You even included the build for it with no explanation! * W second max is also better in AD build, since each point increases damage by 25 + 1% max HP compared to E’s flat 35 per (meaning W is better vs anyone with over 1k HP). Also, putting points in E doesn’t increase armor shred, and the slow only increases by 5% per point. In fact, the cooldown decrease per point would be more useful on Tank Sion than AD Sion.
Thanks for the feedback! So, the main reason why I included the four matchups there is because they were the more annoying matchups. Darius, Aatrox, Viktor, Tryndamere, Irelia is the same strategy as you'd use against Riven - use your Q to CS with the very edge of the Q so Riven can just EQW you. Split push Sion is the middle ground between Full AD Sion (great at 1v1) and Tank Sion (great at teamfighting). Unless Full AD Sion gets a max range ult, he's not going to be doing much cuz he's super squishy. Split push sion playstyle is mostly the same as tank Sion - you push, you harass them under tower with Q, which is why you get Titanic or Tri-Force. Two damage items so you can duel the enemy laner with the same combos, but also still be reasonably tanky later on (not that tankiness really exists in League of True Damage and Magic Pen). E second max is what thebausffs uses, and he's the guy who got to challenger with Full AD Sion. I believe the reason is that you're not going to invest in health, so there's not much of a point to leveling W second, even if you get 600-700 health from farming. He vastly prefers the higher damage (140 more + lack of early MR), lower CD (4 seconds less), and increased slow from maxing E second - [OP.GG Link](http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=thebausffs)
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: And then? What does fervor do if you don't hurt tanks? Like you guys keep talking for weeks on end about conq and bruisers despite you guys having zero clue what you talk about. Because shockingly you don't play toplane or even bruisers to begin with. If conq is removed bruisers go straight back to trash tier. Oh wait THE GOOD BRUISERS AREN'T EVEN CONQ USERS TO BEGIN WITH. It just lets kled, renek and similar champs stay relevant past 10 minutes and let them deal with tanks AS IT IS INTENTED. Irelia is broken because it's irelia and it's hilarious to me conq is now scapegoated for her being strong despite electrocute especially midlane being her best keystone for quite some time. But nono conq is the problem with the game obviously. Tanks cannot walk toplane and rightclick bruisers to death anymore, the horror. Let's remove 50 champs from the game so mao, cho, poppy can be mindlessly spammed again and autowin everything ever. That's the league we want zero interaction, zero mechanics, zero skill. Farm up and hope your botlane carries and this is where most of the conq circlejerk actually comes from. Armless ADC mains that cannot fathom they aren'T super broken anymore and that the problem with adcs is the current GAME ITSELF AND THEIR OWN LACK OF SKILL. Just look at the top ladder of korea how many adc mains you find and yes they do not play crit carries that has a reason and the reason is not conq. Too fast, too snowbally, way too much impact by the jungler especially combined with a competent midlaner.Hilariously oppressive supports but we rather close our eyes and pretend nothing happens when alistar, rakan destroy adcs in the lane. But somehow they cling to this illusion that if we just make tanks happen in toplane again ADCs will be all powerful again. Like do you guys even realize even with fervor bruisers weren't doing too hot toplane? And it was all maokai, nauti for months? And eventually poppy. The old rune tree atleast gave 7% armor pen on top of fervor combined with black cleaver it was SOMETHING. But that was even before bramble garbage, adaptive helmet and shit that remove bruisers from the game. Without conq an ADC with GA and tabis is basically unkillable. Same with fuckin mages who somehow got to get massive pen while being able to go tabis, seeker, not sacrifice any AP or CDR or anything AND ALSO GET HIGH HEALTH STATS ON TWO MAJOR ITEMS if they choose to.
"If conq is removed bruisers go straight back to trash tier. Oh wait THE GOOD BRUISERS AREN'T EVEN CONQ USERS TO BEGIN WITH." If tanks aren't prevalent, Conqueror users aren't going to be super successful. Conqueror's existence means that you can't pick a tank against any champion that can even remotely use it. If you look at pick rate, instead of win rate, you'll see that 5 out of the top 10 are people that CAN use Conqueror. That's a lot of games where you can't pick tanks, which deflates tanks pick rate, and starts a vicious cycle. Conqueror users and Conqueror aren't broken in terms of pick rate/winrate; It's just that it's too easily blind picked and counterpicks an entire class by blind picking. I can see a 5-10% true damage conversion on top of fervor working, or 5-10% true damage conversion after X level.
: Bingo. Im looking at these ADC item changes, and I immediately locked my eyes on the LW change that doubles its % Armor pen. Excuse me, but i'd love to tank instead of having someone buy this 1300 G 20 AD item that will immediately weaken my already weakened state. That, and Void's still busted as hell. If these changes go through (which I do hope they do because Crit ADs feel like shit, I can agree to that) and they dont touch up on tanks, they will be forced to address them like they did with mages, or have to do it around midseason. The fact tanks have almost the same base stats as bruisers already fucks them with their low damage. Aftershock should be replaced with Courage since Courage was well balanced. And either they make tank items do better against damage, or they add damage reduction on a select few. A tank's primary job is to soak damage, and they can't even do that with the amount of upfront ways to do massive amounts of damage that exist. Last thing we need is tanks being turned into pseudo bruisers like what they are doing to Sej and Ornn.
Void needs to drop to 20-25% Magic Pen or Sorc Shoes/Oblivion Orb sharing the Magic Pen Unique Passive. It's not cool that I lose 75% of my MR and I'm forced to build MR because of it. Armor isn't like that since you can actually build Zhonyas or GA, and you have armor to spare since most champions have 100-150 base armor at Lv18. MR caps at 75 at Lv18 from what I've seen. Aftershock needs to scale much harder in the late game. I didn't like the notion of buffing ur armor/mr by 70 early on and then it being useless later. I want it to scale with armor/MR so that shits like Pyke, Liss, and Fiddle don't just get 70 armor for free. Make Aftershock a tank exclusive rune.
Miau (EUW)
: Better waveclear than who? Because most mid ADs have very good waveclear, some of them with no mana. Yasuo has awesome waveclear, Zed has good waveclear, Talon has awesome waveclear.
Zed Q "reduced to 60% against units beyond the first." W is on a 22 second cooldown. If you use it to wave clear, you can't do shit for the next 22 seconds. With how mobile champions are, it's not smart to WEQ because a jungler (ie Camille) is gonna E flash you. Talon has to get Tiamat for an actual waveclear combo. His rake only does 240 damage base when maxed out. He's not ranged so if he's against a ranged matchup, he won't be able to use AAs without being poked out. Can't deny about Yasuo with his Es and Qs.
Miau (EUW)
: You seem to forget armor pen got remade into lethality because of how sheer op it was while magic penetration never had that problem. Don´t even compare the two.
Except since the introduction of armor pen, most champions got 5-20 armor from runes reforged. And unlike MR, you have 100-150 Armor at Lv18 now versus 50-75 at Lv18. You have far more Armor to spare when it comes to lethality AND you have actual items that you can build into. As long as it's AD, you can build GA. AD champions don't have a similar pull with Hexdrinker, as building Hexdrinker on Jax isn't the most effective shit in the world. Not to mention there are 11 Armor Tank Items, whereas there are only 4 Tank MR Items.
: > [{quoted}](name=Draconian565,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oA7EoIrf,comment-id=00010000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-23T16:37:29.909+0000) > > Like I said, you choose the champions whose main damage isn't their abilities. > > If you go on champions like Riven, either their base damage is super low to compensate for the higher scaling (Riven Q is 25-65 damage or 75-195 for all 3, W is 55-175). > > Renekton has a 150% scaling on his non-rage empowered W but his base damage is 15-135. You actively say that its 0.9-1.4 AD Ratio, but have you actually looked at the total damage? How many mages have you seen with a base damage of 15 on a rank 1 ability? Ahri's is 80. > > On the other hand, anything with approximately 200-250 damage has a 70% AD scaling. > > To say that AD champs will be able to use AAs and cite the 1:1 factor implies that we would be able to use it. You have to be realistic and understand that there is so little chance to actually AA in a teamfight, which is when mages excel due to their AOE damage, even more so if your mobility spells are on super high cooldown. That's why J4 isn't played as often, Nocturne is meh, etc. > > If we're melee, it's much harder to use our abilities and AAs since they'll likely also be short-range. Mages shouldn't be so damn efficient in that their scalings are higher, they get far more AP, and its AOE. > > Effectively, if your Ahri Q, Galio Q hits two or three people, the scaling just effectively doubled or tripled because you hit multiple people with an AOE spell. > > A Galio with Ludens, Rabadons, 10-Stack Dark Seal can have 535 AP and his Q can hit for 700 damage. No Baron either. AD Champions should peak at 400 AD or so and a Zed Shuriken will only hit for 472, not factoring in the fact that EVERYONE has a higher base Armor than MR, so it'll reduce to 300, whereas a Galio Q will only reduce to 600 damage (thanks to the magic pen). Tell me how that's fair? > > Scarra was even laughing about this shit: https://i.gyazo.com/9ef351958ec30916df3e5fa8bb160466.jpg well, you see, with AD you get the ability to deal consistent damage, and its rather easy to toss them in between abilities, so in actuality a full zed combo with 400 AD does 300 on shuriken, 250 is on E and 300 on auto plus 10% missing HP and then 300 + 212 from his ult and whatever dark harvest is at the time and on top of that if needed up to 500 from ignite and even another 300 from any more autos he may need to land (assuming the target is extremely high HP but for some reason low armor of course). so in retrospect, the full combo comes to well over 1362.5 damage not counting percent health, and how dark harvest will also factor into the ultimate damage. this is also calculated that the ult only deals 25% of all the damage that zed deals plus 100% of his AD. where galios combo comes in a respectable 1100 damage (not inlcuding ult) with about 600 AP
Ah but you see, Zed's combo is basically single target, as his main damage source, his Q, gets cut down significantly after hitting more than 1 target. Discounting his R damage since Galio's R is mostly defensive, his damage is still significantly lower low in terms of AOE, since Galio can easily hit 2 people with Q. LL Stylish mentions how you can't use Zed's WQ to wave clear without sacrificing his ability to go into a fight. And do you see? 1362.5 damage is reduced further by Armor, as most champs will have 150 armor (base armor + tabis), which is approximately 40% damage reduction, and 50 MR is only around 25% (817 damage to 825 and the fact that Galio + other mages are frequently AOE, meaning they have the potential to hit for multiples of the damage amount that you mentioned). There's a reason why Zed falls off late game, mostly due to his poor teamfighting - he just goes in and hopes he pops the target. You don't get more than 2-3 AAs in a fight as a melee champion because people will immediately focus you when you go in. That's why I don't like the argument that AD Champions have AAs, as it only works in 1v1s or lane skirmishes, not actual teamfights. Disregard Ignite and AAs because most mages also take ignite and ignite is not indicative of the champion or class itself.
Finnestus (EUW)
: Besides other opportunities, you can just buy a Negatron cloak now and build it later into Maw. That actually should help much more against the classic flat magic pen build in most cases, while you have the Chance to say: "They have only magical burst that kills me", Like a Syndra R and then u get hexdrinker, because then the Shield is the decisive element in a Team (or smaller) fight. Edit: By the way i do not think that mages are in a really strong Position Right now, because there are several weaknesses/arguements against the Advantages of the mages you spoke of. But that is something that surely can be well discussed and where i even might be wrong. :)
But here's the thing. If mages want to itemize against you, it's easy as hell and doesn't put them back in the meantime. Seeker's Armguard, they get AP/Armor off that (a stupid amount of armor to boot). Your base Armor is already much higher than base MR. Now how is it fair that AD Champs would lose similar options (Hexdrinker) and effectively be forced to build a full negatron. It's not about not wanting to itemize about them, but the fact that it just puts behind someone who's entire purpose is the early and mid game. I've brought this point up several times. Magic Pen is too damn efficient because of how little base MR everyone has. The fact that a Sorc Shoes will eat up 1/2 of your base MR is ridiculous, forcing you to buy a null mantle, which brins it back to my point that it wastes the purpose of early-mid game champions that would have to itemize against you. Dropping from 30->12 MR increases the damage taken far more than 70 -> 55 for Lethality. If mages can just sit on an Oblivion Orb with Sorc Shoes, I don't understand why Hexdrinker needs to be nerfed. Mages aren't in a stop position: Boi, look at the goddamn stats. The top 6 spots are literally mages (Liss, Galio, Ahri, Kassadin, Malz, Cass on op.gg; Kass Neeko, Cass, Karthus, Ahri, Fizz on u.gg). Out of the entire S+ and S tier champs on mid lane, there's only 3 AD champions in 12 slots (u.gg). And before you pull winrates over tiers, understand that tiers encapsulates winrate and playrate, which is important for reducing skewed data caused by one tricks and lack of play. Ivern could have a 100% win rate in Challenger due to only being picked in like 1 game. FYI: I'm not an assassin player or a bruiser main. I'm just an objective bystander who can see what's killing me and isn't when I itemize shit.
: Meanwhile, look at their spells. Ahri Q is .35 AP per pass for .7 total. Lux Q is .7 AP, Leblanc Q is .8 AP if you proc the mark. Most AP abilities are in the .6 to .9 AP ratio area, as long as they aren't massive damage abilities or broken concept (i.e Zoe Q scaling up to 1.5 AP). Compared to most non-ADC AD abilities, whose ratios are more in the .9 to 1.4 AD ratio area. AP and AD just aren't 1:1 in power, especially when you look at their gold efficiency where 1 point of AP is worth 21.75 gold and 1 point of AD is worth 35 gold.
Like I said, you choose the champions whose main damage isn't their abilities. If you go on champions like Riven, either their base damage is super low to compensate for the higher scaling (Riven Q is 25-65 damage or 75-195 for all 3, W is 55-175). Renekton has a 150% scaling on his non-rage empowered W but his base damage is 15-135. You actively say that its 0.9-1.4 AD Ratio, but have you actually looked at the total damage? How many mages have you seen with a base damage of 15 on a rank 1 ability? Ahri's is 80. On the other hand, anything with approximately 200-250 damage has a 70% AD scaling. To say that AD champs will be able to use AAs and cite the 1:1 factor implies that we would be able to use it. You have to be realistic and understand that there is so little chance to actually AA in a teamfight, which is when mages excel due to their AOE damage, even more so if your mobility spells are on super high cooldown. That's why J4 isn't played as often, Nocturne is meh, etc. If we're melee, it's much harder to use our abilities and AAs since they'll likely also be short-range. Mages shouldn't be so damn efficient in that their scalings are higher, they get far more AP, and its AOE. Effectively, if your Ahri Q, Galio Q hits two or three people, the scaling just effectively doubled or tripled because you hit multiple people with an AOE spell. A Galio with Ludens, Rabadons, 10-Stack Dark Seal can have 535 AP and his Q can hit for 700 damage. No Baron either. AD Champions should peak at 400 AD or so and a Zed Shuriken will only hit for 472, not factoring in the fact that EVERYONE has a higher base Armor than MR, so it'll reduce to 300, whereas a Galio Q will only reduce to 600 damage (thanks to the magic pen). Tell me how that's fair? Scarra was even laughing about this shit: https://i.gyazo.com/9ef351958ec30916df3e5fa8bb160466.jpg
Antenora (EUW)
: {{item:3020}} needs to lose some penetration. Mages removing ~50% of a ADC or Support's MR in lane with an 1100 gold purchase seems legit.
Hey man, mages are like "oh you should totally build a null mantle because it would completely undo the magic pen loss." Yes, because I should delay my build on a mid-late game role like ADC because you exist instead of just buffing base MR by +13 as it was for 6 seasons.
: > [{quoted}](name=Draconian565,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ExBKd4HN,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-23T04:34:14.760+0000) > > Kinda agree. The tanky part was just a side-bonus for later game fights and was more reliable than someone like Elise who had the CC, but not enough tankiness. Pretty much. If they wanted a tank, why not nautilus? Far more reliable than gragas and better pick potential. Lock down? Malphite or amumu instead of sejuani. The difference between these 3 and those 2 esports tanks, is damage. Those 3 are better tanks than gragas could ever hope to be but fall short in the damage department
Exactly. And then True damage and lack of resistances came along and people were like, shit, we don't have a tank anymore so ADCs became much harder to play, coupled with the IE rework.
D4M2X0 (EUW)
: tanks are early game champs that get outclassed early and dont tank late hehe
Conq, new IE, lack of non-situational MR items + loss of base 13 MR from old runes/masteries. Why play a tank. Just play a bruiser that stacks health and you'll be just as tanky :^) If you got CC, even better. And if people respond with, oh you got 2 MR stat shards. Great, I have to waste 2 slots just to get back what used to made it bearable to lane against AP while they can get double adaptive damage shards and a resist shard.
Naalith (NA)
: Too bad pro League of Legends has nothing to do with real League of Legends.
: But you forget that that item has to be stacked to be effective. It's never an item you can build first as all mages midlane usually need some form of mana stability. Zed will peak at best at the point where you would buy this. If you're ahead you can stay ahead and maybe even skip the item til slot 4 but if you're behind you can spend the money but you'll struggle still for a while. Not to mention energy vs mana usage. Weapons with lethality are stupid cheap and duskblade is insane for the amount of damage it gives you on the right champ. 1100+ stacking makes it a great item but it doesn't stop a 2030 duskblade that can 1 shot you. Lost chapter or tear are almost manadory starting items which offer little protection outside of pressure the lane a ton so you can get ganked more, with dorans ring vs a longsword pot build or a D blade putting those champs already ahead in their builds. That's 1300 for a mage to have stability with Mana and then 1100 to "fully negate pen" but by then that spike has been hit and you still have to stack. In short, armguard is a weak answer and puts you behind even more if another champ is ahead, letting them just stack more and more cheap item lethality like youmoos. Not to mention there's no versatility in build path and zonyas is like 3k to complete and has a bunch of pieces to it to crowd your inventory if you want to change builds if you get ahead.
Pretty sure that's what Lost Chapter was meant to do and Luden's was meant for this - AP/Mana/CDR in 1 item. You can literally sit on Seeker's Armguard, which is 1 item. You also have far more armor than MR, as that's the convention of the game. You have armor to spare when it comes to Lethality. Same can't be said for MR since Oblivion Orb and Sorc Shoes take out 75% of ur MR (40 MR) from the get go.
: Banshee’s Veil.
You know. The item with the highest MR in game. For mages only. KEK.
: >As I mentioned, if you ever played an AD Champ, you'd know that AD champs don't get more than 1-2 AAs off in a teamfight because of how fast they're blown up from having to go in at melee range. And there are ranged ADs as well. And the higher ratios I talked about are things like 120% bonus AD on J4 Q, 150% on J4 R, 120% on Nocturne R, etc. Make your assumptions, but while I don't play much anymore I played a lot of Garen last season so don't even get into "you don't know what its like dirty ahri main huhuhuh".
I apologize for the assumption then. As for the other points: J4 is literally the same as Darius (140% AD on Q) except that his W and E aren't his core damage. Darius's Q has high scaling because his E doesn't offer damage, and like J4, both come from AAs. They aren't mages or Rivens with multiple damaging spells. Nocturne R - 150 Rank 1 (400 Rank 3) with 120% bonus ratio. Akali has 90% AP Ratio +50% bonus AD Ratio on her ult and max damage at Rank 1 is 330. Not satisfied? Let's use a more conventional mage then. Galio and Ahri: 1) Ahri - 180 damage Rank 1 PER charge. 315% AP Ratio on her 3 charges. Even if you only hit 1 bolt per charge, that's still 105% AP Ratio. I'm not seeing how AD Champions are getting more advantage in scaling or base. 2) Galio - 90% on Q, 70% AP scaling on ult with 150 damage but has a huge ass shield to boot. Yes, and what do Ranged AD build? They don't build full AD, they build a mix of AS/Crit/AD, which plummets their AD amount, reducing the effectiveness of their scaling.
: Funny of you to think so when there is for example a single AD item that blocks vision, disables traps and offers a spammable 99% slow...
Except it was nerfed and base armor is still much higher than MR, which is why you don't see assassins everywhere and you do see mages in support lane, mid, top. Hell, until two months ago, there were quite a few AP junglers, Taliyah (now nerfed), Evelynn, and Nidalee.
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