: Problem is there is a large deaf community who do play this game. Unfortunately, "audio" only cues would not work for this.
I've also asked that Riot give Shaco's puff of smoke a graphical update (a mini-VFX update, similar to how back in 2015 Rumble's fiery "meatballs" were graphically reworked to more closely resemble flames). The other Shaco Mains fight me even harder on this than on the audio cue though. It is unfortunate for the deaf community, but audio cues would go a long way for the majority of players. That said, I do think there need to be more forms or instances of getting vision / information. For example: More abilities that could grant limited AoE True Sight: {{champion:161}}'s Ulti (the True Sight AoE is limited to the lazer beam) {{champion:143}}'s Seeds (if stepped on, could grant tiny True Sight pollen cloud) {{champion:50}}'s Vision of the Empire (it's already a smallish AoE that doesn't last long) Other abilities that could offer detection without revealing (that is, without allowing targeted attacks or abilities): {{champion:11}}'s Meditate (invisible enemies' aura is revealed to him while approaching him if he's meditating) {{champion:67}}'s Night Hunter (could reveal the outline of enemies she's attacked recently through the Fog of War, but not allow her to actually attack them) https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLg0AMkG.png&f=1 A bat-like Yordle Assassin who had an Echolocation ability. Riot could use vision / information as a lever for balancing champions, and they do to an extent, but I think there need to be more detection abilities like {{item:3364}}'s _Shadow Silhouette_, {{champion:421}}'s _Tremor Sense_, {{champion:19}}'s _Blood Scent_, etc. to counter-act the number of invis-abilities.
: Stealth is an unfun mechanic that lacks counterplay.
Shaco Main here. I've asked Riot repeatedly to make his evil laugh upon disappearing more audible, and to give his boxes a 'music AoE' so that you know when you're near one. That way players could at least have a split second of warning before Shaco appears behind them, and he couldn't just Q and run for 3+ seconds, engaging them from 3000 units away. The other Shaco Mains don't want it though. "Ganking would be impossible," they say. They prefer that Shaco remain unfair, because having telegraphing on an assassin would be 'unfair' for Shaco. IKR?
TheDonna (NA)
: {{champion:143}} I despise Zyra's new passive. I'd much rather have the previous passive which relied entirely on the enemy forgetting you exist than her current RNG plants passive.
Given the number of champs that have 2-3 effects on their (P)assive, I don't see why Zyra couldn't get her old passive and new passive rolled into one.
: Stealth and Developers
So... this is actually a really important piece of a conversation that needs to happen (talking about the role and implementation of stealth in League) but you are going about it the wrong way - you'll never get a Rioter response with your tone, or even the significant upvotes necessary to get their attention. But... to address your grievance: what those characters (Vayne, Kha'Zix, Akali) are doing is _not_, in essence, stealth. It is only invisibility. The terms are not synonymous or interchangeable. The problem the developers (the Rioters) have is that their definition of stealth is irrevocably flawed and as a result their methodology regarding stealth _gameplay_ has been haphazard and piecemeal. Until they make changes that are in accord with the actual definition of stealth, they will continue to run into problems with certain champions and League as a whole. Stealth has one definition, and that definition is consistent even when stealth appears in League, despite Riot's erroneous use of the word: > _Cautious and surreptitious action or movement; the quality or characteristic of being furtive or covert._ Stealth and invisibility are not synonymous or interchangeable. I can't stress this enough. You can be invisible without being stealthy, although invisibility is usually a prerequisite for stealth. Camouflage, in League, is invisibility with proximity as a parameter. Camouflage, IRL, is not a type of 'stealth' but something that can enable stealth. Stealth is not a mechanic (a mechanic being the player-input via button presses.) League's code renders our champions invisible to the enemy, but stealth is something that we, as the player, must actively and consciously engage in, via our avatar (mine is Shaco). It is a mindset or playstyle i.e. behavior. The word 'stealth' is derived from the word 'steal', which you can check in the dictionary, has this as one of the definitions: >_To move, convey, or introduce secretly; to accomplish in a concealed or unobserved manner._ Almost every game that we call a 'stealth game' operates with this definition of stealth in mind. In fact, the term 'stealthed' does not exist in any dictionary, as it is a recent development brought on by a few very specific games, notably World of Warcraft. In WoW the Rogue ability 'Stealth' was just invisibility because the game's systems did not really support actual stealth gameplay, but the term 'stealthed' was shorthand for invisibility (fewer syllables). And tens of _millions_ of people played WoW, and the term spread, and some of those players were future Rioters, and like an infection, it spread further, as now League's players use the word. And we can witness the effect this erroneous use of language has had on the community: > **Akali Is So Hot** said: Eve could be stealthed forever. >**DuskDaUmbreon** said: Rengar: Stealths with ultimate. >**Jungle Lux God** said: Those champions also had stealth for an extremely long duration. >**Steel Blossom** said: The thing for re-stealthing assassins... >**Dead Flag Blues** said: I still think that stealth on ranged champions is extremely unfair. Outside of the gaming community, no one has ever spoken of stealth in this fashion. You can use stealth, be stealthy, or behave stealthily. You can modify some words, e.g. stealth-bomber, which signifies the word as a characteristic of that thing but 'stealthed' and 'stealthing' are not real words. I don't mean to rant, but I think this is important. Riot needs to create an ecosystem of items and mechanics and elements suitable for stealth gameplay, otherwise the stealth-champions will prove problematic in some way. I could go on, but I'm tired.
: Because of the inherent kits. The ones that drop in and out of it? They don't have the ability to one-shot unless you're a Kog'maw, or they're seriously ahead. Akali isn't going to kill you in a single rotation, unless she's 5 kills up and has Gunblade and Lich Bane. Vayne's stealth lasts for a second at a time. Or less. It's not a "Run in invisible, from across half the map, appear behind you with 0 warning, and nuke you". At best, Vayne's only gonna be able to appear from an unwarded bush. And, again, she can't single-combo you unless you're a Kog'maw, seriously behind, or she's seriously ahead. Kha'Zix? His stealth is a very short duration (I think 2 seconds?), and *generally* he's not able to kill you in a single rotation. He is now, but that's more a state of the game than of the champion. The ones that drop in and out are also either very short duration or bound to a single area. Akali's stealth is in one zone. She's like an electron: You know her *general* position, and you're *certain* she's in there somewhere, but you're not certain *where* in it she is. Vayne's lasts for one second. Kha'Zix's lasts for what I believe is 2 seconds, and is his ultimate anyways. Now, let's look at the others you mentioned: Old Evelynn: Permastealth (camo) from level 1. Problematic because you *had* to buy pink wards or control wards at the beginning of the game. Mid didn't get to buy any potions, support only got one, because they'd die if they didn't buy the ward as a first item. She could also nuke from stealth. Fixed by locking her camo behind level 6. Rengar: Able to one-shot from stealth. Stealths with ultimate. Ultimate also gives passive leap. Stealth lasts several (10+, I believe) seconds. Was highly problematic, as he would leap from a bush (insane range on that shit), nuke an ADC, and ult out, untouchably. Fixed by...well...only partially fixed, but was done by changing it from invisibility to camo. Shaco: Q is a flash+Invisibility. Lasts 5+ seconds. Possibility of one-shot, but should be able to kill without re-stealthing, because of W. Also has clone. Fixed by: Not actually fixed. He was just nerfed and kinda just...left there. His kit itself is problematic. If Shaco's Q was reduced to 2 seconds, you know why it'd be broken? Because he has higher instant damage, and because ***his Q is a fucking flash***. It's the same range as ones a blink, and turns you fucking invisible, while also giving bonus damage. The *only* drawback to it? It costs mana.
Q doesn't give any bonus damage anymore. It is only a Blink+Invis now.
Snowic (NA)
: What is up with Riot making new support champions?
I really don't understand why Riot isn't making more vision-oriented support champions. It seems like a really cool and useful design space, and complements what supports are meant to be doing besides healing, shielding, and peeling. Why, Riot, why?
Rioter Comments
Chermorg (NA)
: They haven’t removed it - it’s been put on hold. They had the sightstone updates ready, but not the updates for these items, as they’re still exploring possibilities for them. As such, it’s more a temporary removal than a complete removal - if even that. Also there’s no way for us to move threads - so you can either repost in gameplay or delete this one and repost there. Either is really fine honestly.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
MysterQ (NA)
: Someone has actually posted several times with images and everything for a LoL TCG they are developing. The biggest thing I want to recommend. Force the games to be highlander. Maybe that is bad from a business perspective, but I think it is good from a play perspective.
What do you mean highlander exactly? Only one-ofs in a deck?
Rioter Comments
: How elevation is making you miss skill shots (5 minute video)
> Players should fight their opponents, not the game. We strive to present information in a clear and precise way so that League can be about dominating opponents with skill and teamwork – not through bookkeeping hidden information. > > "Clarity means we want distinct, transparent mechanics in everything we design. When the outcome of a game hinges on a player’s ability to quickly assess the situation, information needs to be clear and accessible. This doesn't mean we tell players the best play to make, but we should make sure they have the right info to make calls as best they can." > >---- Ryan "Morello" Scott, Lead Designer of League of Legends, [Dev Blog: The Design Values of League of Legends](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/dev-blog-design-values-league-legends)
Vouge (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=DrugsForRobots,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l5LsQ8FQ,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-26T23:05:56.518+0000) > Firstly, Thanks for taking the time to respond in such depth, it is much appreciated. I will try to respond in kind, and I'll hope you'll forgive me for making presumptions or repetitive comments, as I haven't gone through and read much of this thread since posting this originally. > Not impossible, only nearly impossible. I think it is so because far to often what I see is the enemy jungler coming in for a gank only to not realize its warded and waste their time waiting, or, to realize _that it is warded_ (inferring this based on the enemy's movements) and that they've wasted their time and revealed their position and that there was very little they could do about. It was reactive instead of proactive. > > It's fair to say that aggressive / deep wards are proactive, but even then there is very little the enemy can do to proactively avoid / dodge said wards outside of have a specific anti-ward counter-item or placing aggressive / deep wards in turn (and thereby gaining some insight into the enemy's movements around the map, such as when they wander off to ward) and doing so requires them to sacrifce their ability to ward - which in itself might not be such a problem, except that our wards have no way of outplaying them without 1) foreknowledge of the ward's placement, or 2) a specific counter-item. > Thanks for clarifying this, I think it outlines your argument a lot better and I'm actually inclined to agree with a lot of this. I feel that one of the primary issues is the fact that creating a vision system like you describe is simply too complex as a secondary or even a tertiary factor of the game. Not to say that vision isn't important, but for much of the earliest portions of the game, the only one required to deal with this stealth gameplay/movement would be the jungler, and really only in a specific set of locations. Again, in higher elo or in more organized team games such as the LCS where invading for deep wards is taken and vision used very seriously, this is a bit different, but for many players, vision simply is not important enough to be on their mind the entire time. Many of the players I face, myself included, often misuse the current minimap and vision properly in some situations, and far more have no clue or awareness whatsoever. Adding sentry turret wards with blind spots would make this situation infinitely more difficult for laners, and implementing a bypass would make gameplay far more cautious; ie. (Is the jungler ganking me, mid is MIA, are they roaming top? No, ward is still up, but they could be bypassing it, etc.) Simply put, I just feel like this would get pretty confusing, and while making it more interactive for players, adding risk and reward, and honestly being an intriguing mechanic, it might just be too much. > It just seems like there is a level of conscientiousness required to engage in stealth gameplay (the vision game) that most player's don't seem to have, and that Riot doesn't encourage, or worse, unintentionally trains people out of. The vision game / stealth gameplay requires a level of strategic thinking and macro understanding that our current wards don't facilitate in the vast majority of players, whereas most every other facet of League is designed with this in mind: it's why Riot has been so big on counterplay and telegraphing with champion abilities - they want more players to have the info required to make split-second tactical decisions. > Agreed. > I'm reminded of an instance of seeing an LCS Elise having a ward's position pinged out for her by a teammate (because said teammate had warded before the enemy placed their ward) and the position of that ward was such that it left a small gap of the Fog of War between it and some terrain. Knowing this, the Elise hugged the wall and slipped past that ward, ganking from a position that the enemy Orianna had assumed safe because of her ward. It was beautiful. > > As for why bother to avoid / dodge a ward instead of just destroy it, what if you couldn't? What if the ward I mentioned was indestructible, and at best could only be 'jammed' or temporarily disabled via basic attacks? It could also afford to grant True Sight instead of Standard Sight. > Wish you had mentioned this before, it seems like this would be a very interesting mechanic to add, albeit one that would require a massive additional curve. It would be really cool if, say, the current sight cones were changed or could be upgraded to offer different bonuses, you could pay additional gold to change location, type of vision (True vision, longer acting lighthouse mode, longe range cone like the current patch, etc.) > I think all wards and trinkets should be fallible to some extent, but they should also have some innate form of defense. The Control Ward (and the Vision Ward before it) both have higher HP than other wards, and regenerate, which makes up for their 'weakness' of being visible. > Again, if this were implemented like the current vision plant, I think it could prove to be quite interesting. Health regen such as current trap wards or higher health sections would also be quite powerful in making a more healthy vision game, but try to keep it simple. Remember that denying vision, not knowing, and making assumptions are ALL part of the game currently, simple or difficult as it may be. Invincible wards might be hard, but with a little tweaking this idea could be a great addition :D. > What if there was a ward that granted sight in the standard AoE, but was only place-able on terrain, and could be seen by the enemy through the Fog of War? It could only be attacked by ranged champions, but was captured for your team instead of being destroyed? It could also be outplayed by using invisibility spells or by avoiding it entirely, since it's position was apparent to all. And due the constraint of only being place-able on terrain, gaps in the Fog of War like what I mentioned with the LCS Elise example earlier would be possible. > As you move forward with this, assuming it gets the attention I think it deserves, just remember that the solution has to be simple. The current system, which I do agree has many faults, offers actions, reactions, and the ability to bypass the system in a way not many other games do. There is no action that cannot be reversed in the vision game, though perhaps looking into it so deeply makes the problems seem exasperated. Best of luck, and thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.
You're welcome. Also, I forgot to add: the ward I was talking about being placable on terrain, being visible through the FoW, only being attackable by range, and being capturable , should also grant vision over terrain as part of its special. So it has pros and cons that look like this: +Sight in a large radius not hindered by terrain +Can't be attacked except by ranged champions --Is visible through the Fog of War --Can be captured by the enemy Which mimics the 'pros and cons' section of Sweeping Lens / Oracle's Alteration item. I think a similar style pros and cons for unique / special wards could work well. Anyways, good luck on the Fields of Justice!
: Your posts on vision and stealth are consistently excellent, and this is no exception. I fully agree, wards are a completely outdated mechanic at this point, and the irony is that while I do think players are right in saying it separates the noobs from the pros, I also think it does so for all the wrong reasons: because wards are so boring and difficult to appreciate, yet so valuable in actuality, newer or less advanced players don't really want to lay wards down, because warding is inherently not compelling, but pros will take the time to lay down wards all the time. Warding turns vision into a chore, when vision could be so much more interesting. In-game, there are currently three ways of providing vision, and therefore stealth: there's vision through items, vision through champion kits, and vision through the environment. Here are my opinions on all three: * **Vision through items is mandatory by nature when it exists, but is frequently boring:** One of the core issues with vision when it's provided through items is that, unless there are hard limits to how much of it can be laid down, it will always fall to the support to stock up as much as possible on vision and anti-vision tools. This is why we have a hard cap on stealth and control wards, and why Sightstone is still mandatory, despite being almost universally disliked. Additionally, right now the whole game of laying down invisible vision tools, then randomly searching them out with other, dedicated hard counter trinkets and items, does not make for a vision game that is particularly clear or engaging. It is particularly unfortunate that these are the main tools players are given to access vision, as it is just about the least interesting form of vision in the game. For sure wards need to be overhauled, but I personally question the current item-centric state of the vision game, as vision-providing items will always be easier for newer players to overlook than champion abilities or environmental features. * **Champion-based vision is treated more often as a convenience, rather than a real asset:** Darius and Kalista are actually a great example of this difference: Kalista's Sentinels are an actual asset, as they take up an entire ability slot, have a real, interactive presence, and genuinely provide vision as the main bonus. Darius's E vision, by contrast, doesn't really provide new information, since Darius pulls every enemy in the cone to him anyways. We see this repeated across many kits, where vision or other means of detection, such as impact sounds, are handed out pretty arbitrarily, with no real relation to the champion or their theme. By contrast, champions who really should stand out as providers of vision, such as Lux, don't have that aspect of their theme honored at all. The way detection is implemented on champions needs to change radically, so that it only gets handed out when it's meant to be an actual asset, but then also gets treated as a legitimate, fun and powerful form of utility, as is already the case on a select few abilities (e.g. Kalista's W, Ashe's E, etc.). * **Environmental vision is promising, but still very basic:** Currently, there are to ways of getting vision through the environment, and that's through Scryer's Bloom and the Scuttle Crab. Scuttle is functionally a very localized ward, but Scryer's Bloom is a great way of temporarily getting information on an area. There is a lot more that can be done with this, I think, especially since the most efficient warding ends up only focusing on the same set of locations: putting plants at those locations with different vision effects could be a great way of setting the vision game up as a battle for territorial control via information, and having those plants around could help de-clutter the player's inventory while providing potentially even better gameplay, as well as more clarity. Ideally, though, we should move away from ward-style vision, i.e. Scuttle, and instead work towards making the most of each location if we're adding more vision plants (or even anti-vision plants). I also fully agree that right now the biggest obstacle to stealth is the lack of clarity to vision and detection, mainly because of wards. Right now it's difficult to make stealth interactive because stealth hinges on vision, which is still largely uninteractive. Giving champions clear knowledge of when they're being detected, without them having to resort to dedicated anti-vision items, would be a huge step towards allowing more forms of stealth beyond just invisibility on a few kits. **TL;DR:** I think vision and detection should be moved away from items and more onto champion kits and the environment, where it should be made much more clear, consistent, and interactive. Vision is powerful, but more importantly needs to _feel_ powerful for everyone involved, whether it's the player laying it down, or the player getting detected while attempting to infiltrate a part of the map.
Thanks for the compliments, haha. I mostly just copy-pasta myself at this point, but I wouldn't mind if others started doing the same. I agree with you almost 100%, and I want to highlight some points you make that I think are most important: >Right now the whole game of laying down invisible vision tools, then randomly searching them out with other, dedicated hard counter trinkets and items, does not make for a vision game that is particularly clear or engaging This. A common counter-argument is that player's won't be guessing, since there are a handful commonly warded choke-points and bushes. My rebuttal is that player's must still guess or infer that they're standing on a ward, which means they're being reactive instead of proactive. Worse still, the Sweeping Lens, which I think is a cool item and effect, is very rarely used to scout, even in Pro-Play because there's very little way to know if you've already been seen and you're better off using it reactively because the alternative _is_ guessing. If for you somehow having foreknowledge of the enemy's ward placement (usually by having wards down in a place before they ward) you could just proceed to take an entirely different gank route unless you wanted to reveal yourself in order to take out that ward and get the gold. I think the Sweeping Lens would be a much cooler item if it's primary purpose was proactively scouting / detecting invisible units and traps instead of being used to retroactively deny vision. Unfortunately, it _is_ used like a hard-counter specifically to allow players to destroy wards, and it's big sister, the Oracle's Alteration, while not strictly better, is vastly preferred, especially in Pro-Play, because being able to find and destroy an enemy's wards is more lucrative and consistent than proactively scouting and trying to get intel from the safety of a vast range. Just my thoughts. >The way detection is implemented on champions needs to change radically, so that it only gets handed out when it's meant to be an actual asset, but then also gets treated as a legitimate, fun and powerful form of utility, as is already the case on a select few abilities I agree. I do think League would benefit from shifting some the power off of items and onto champions where it is thematically appropriate, and I also think that doing away (or radically changing) some info-granting items entirely (such as Sight Stone) would be the best way to open up that design space and _weight_ to champions. Other candiates include Nocturne, who could possibly afford to have his Duskbringer apply Paranoia's Nearsight effect, and maybe his Shroud of Darkness making him invisible but it appears like the Fog of War? Leona & Diana also could have their gameplay fantasy enhanced / benefit thematically by playing with their respective Sunlight and Moonlight debuffs as vision-granting effects. Audio cues like impact sounds - which obviously detect unseen things - naturally play into the information game, but are underutilized as a tool for our enemy's to detect our stealthy approach (and vice versa, who wouldn't be glad to have a chance to hear Evelynn, Twitch, or Shaco sneaking up on them?) Rengar already exhibits this and I think it does a lot in terms of making him feel more fair and feel like a predator. Knowing the enemy can hear you or _could_ hear you, has been a staple of stealth gameplay since Thief: The Dark Project. >Putting plants at those locations with different vision effects could be a great way of setting the vision game up as a battle for territorial control via information You know I think Riot missed an opportunity by not making all the plants play with information somehow, but perhaps there is still room for exploration. However, I do think Riot should seriously map-out the vision and information design space, and save the most powerful and unique effects and expressions for champions. I also wonder if the jungle would feel overcrowded or cluttered with too many plants, but I think they could easily fit a fourth type of plant (one that plays with information somehow) into the jungle without it feeling too cramped. I will say that I thought they struck gold with the Murk Wolf Crossroads Spirit of yesteryear. Smiting the Murk Wolf camp granted access to a powerful vision / information granting tool that did a lot of things right. For one, it was visible to enemies but it had a shorter vision range than those heroes meaning they could dodge / avoid it before being seen; two, it made a distinct and audible sound that enemy's could hear - and thus could react to - upon stepping foot in the enemy's jungle, giving them the option to retain some information and ambiguity; and three, even if the Spirit never outright spotted an enemy, it provided info to your team through the same audible sound and by moving in the direction of the nearest enemy. It is a shame to see it gone, IMO. (Theorycrafting: Another possible information granting tool for junglers would be incorporating some sort of Clairvoyance effect into the Smite summoner spell - Smite'ing a camp would leave the area of impact around it revealed for some 30s while also leaving behind a distinct visible indicator, letting counter-jungling enemies know that the enemy team has vision of said area while providing vision of a jungle path for their team, which thanks to the camps and their leash ranges could provide some interesting tactics.) ------- >Right now the biggest obstacle to stealth is the lack of clarity to vision and detection, mainly because of wards Mainly because of wards, but those aren't the only reason. There are a great number of effects that all indicate to enemies that they can be seen - this is the little 'eyes' icon that appears overhead - yet the same icon is used for many instances of True Sight and Standard Sight, and other abilities that grant one Sight or another lack the 'eyes' icon altogether. This is why I so often mention that quote from Morello - because Riot is not living up to their own design philosophy when it comes to the vision game. Regarding wards, they are clearly an instance of player's being required to bookkeep hidden information, which again directly violates Riot's stated design philosophy of Clarity (that same quote no-less.) In closing, I agree with you on 99% of things, and the 1% is trivial stuff (I wouldn't necessarily call wards outdated), but you knew this already. I also wanted to thank you again for being the one who drew my attention to this matter of vision in the first place, and got me thinking deeply about stealth games and gameplay. It also makes me glad to see that at least some few players agree (many judging by that Reddit post) and I hope Riot does take another look at vision! =P P.S. A common counter-argument I see against alterations to the vision game and about unique and powerful wards in particular, is that it is too complex and gimmicky and would be 'solved' within weeks by the Pros. My rebuttal is: remember plants? Remember how people said the exact same things? How did those turn out? =P P.S.S. Weren't you a Gameplay Warden? What happened there?
HeeroTX (NA)
: Vision is undervalued for one simple reason: The VAST majority of players don't look at their mini-map. If I ward river, it doesn't really provide any improvement if I don't pay ATTENTION to the spot that was warded and see someone pass through the ward zone. Tactical vision serves no real purpose at low elo because people don't really use it even if they put down the wards. If Riot wants to train people to use vision, they should add some small random "reward" (like player specific gold) that appears randomly and is ONLY visible in the mini-map. This would force people to check their mini-map more often and theoretically lead to more usage for wards.
I think a decent solution to this would be to shift some power away from static sources of vision, and onto more active / player initiated sources of vision. Champion abilities are obviously one example, Frost Queen's Claim with it's two icy ghosts is another, Kalista's Sentinel's are yet another. In particular, I think Kali's Sentinel's 'scream' upon spotting an enemy is cool and they can also be seen patrolling your mini-map (they're little dots with little cones of the map lit up in-front of them.) I also think if Riot were to bring back the Mandrake Ward (preferably with a new name) they could have it ping out enemies and therefore draw attention to the mini-map.
k wìx (NA)
: I agree with pretty much everything. Stealth and Vision need a minor rework at best, and a big overhaul at worst. It feels stale and uninspired. **I think every single champion should get some interaction with wards or Vision. ** As a design challenge, this would be really, really fun to do - and you could completely expand on player expression with stealth/vision/wards. This also has the side-effect of encouraging everyone to buy wards. **Secondly, We need more tools.** I would LOVE for them to revisit the idea of a Summoner Spell for Vision. And in addition, There are so many ward ideas ideas it is criminal how few options we have.
I kind of agree with you. My disagreements / concerns are as follows: Any rework / tweaking / updating of 'stealth' (invisibility mechanics) will go poorly unless they encourage / promote actual stealth _gameplay_. I think Evelynn's _Demon Shade_ promotes stealth gameplay, as she knows when she can be seen (most of the time) and the proximity detection radius encourages her to bide her time, stalk, observe, be patient, etc. I also think her _Lust Dust_ is Riot's attempt at a visual indicator / clue / tell-tale sign like what Rengar has, which I like although I think it could be improved. I still think both she and Twitch and Shaco need emphasized audio cues to that alert wary and observant enemies that they're being jumped. I think such audio clues, could provide interesting mind-games and would open up their power budget. I don't think _every_ champion should get some interaction with wards or vision beyond what they innately have: i.e. the ability to dodge / out maneuver wards and destroy wards, and the ability to hide in brush and behind terrain - all of which constitutes stealth _gameplay_. I do support vision / info granting abilities where thematically appropriate and when they enhance a champion's gameplay fantasy - Lux being a primary example of someone who should have major vision granting abilities, possibly Vel'Koz as well (his ultimate granting True Sight, for example.) Those champion's can / should be picked for because their vision is a valuable asset. I would also like more tools, especially major items that play with info in unique ways. I once supported the idea of a SS dedicated to vision / information, but now I'm less sure, as I think the power of such an ability (and the design space) would be better served in giving us powerful / unique vision-oriented supports. :)
Vouge (NA)
: So here's my question for you. First off, what makes you think its impossible to outplay wards currently? I have seen hundreds of players in both my own games and high elo games that utilize what I consider to be basic game knowledge (being able to estimate ward positioning and range,) to bypass wards and play the stealth game for ganks. As a jungler, assuming that the winning laner has the river bush warded and pathing accordingly at specific times or after losing vision is quite commonplace, regardless of whether a ward is there or not. Secondly, to go off of the turret ward idea, or a sweeping cone, why would you even bother to avoid it if you could just destroy it and nullify the vision itself? How would this be balanced out, and what would make it more worth it to play around the vision cone rather than to nullify the vision all together? When you look further into this, you will see why it simply isn't relevant to even implement the idea, much less make these wards specific to countering specific abilities or game mechanics such as invisibility.
Not impossible, only nearly impossible. I think it is so because far to often what I see is the enemy jungler coming in for a gank only to not realize its warded and waste their time waiting, or, to realize _that it is warded_ (inferring this based on the enemy's movements) and that they've wasted their time and revealed their position and that there was very little they could do about. It was reactive instead of proactive. It's fair to say that aggressive / deep wards are proactive, but even then there is very little the enemy can do to proactively avoid / dodge said wards outside of have a specific anti-ward counter-item or placing aggressive / deep wards in turn (and thereby gaining some insight into the enemy's movements around the map, such as when they wander off to ward) and doing so requires them to sacrifce their ability to ward - which in itself might not be such a problem, except that our wards have no way of outplaying them without 1) foreknowledge of the ward's placement, or 2) a specific counter-item. It just seems like there is a level of conscientiousness required to engage in stealth gameplay (the vision game) that most player's don't seem to have, and that Riot doesn't encourage, or worse, unintentionally trains people out of. The vision game / stealth gameplay requires a level of strategic thinking and macro understanding that our current wards don't facilitate in the vast majority of players, whereas most every other facet of League is designed with this in mind: it's why Riot has been so big on counterplay and telegraphing with champion abilities - they want more players to have the info required to make split-second tactical decisions. I'm reminded of an instance of seeing an LCS Elise having a ward's position pinged out for her by a teammate (because said teammate had warded before the enemy placed their ward) and the position of that ward was such that it left a small gap of the Fog of War between it and some terrain. Knowing this, the Elise hugged the wall and slipped past that ward, ganking from a position that the enemy Orianna had assumed safe because of her ward. It was beautiful. As for why bother to avoid / dodge a ward instead of just destroy it, what if you couldn't? What if the ward I mentioned was indestructible, and at best could only be 'jammed' or temporarily disabled via basic attacks? It could also afford to grant True Sight instead of Standard Sight. I think all wards and trinkets should be fallible to some extent, but they should also have some innate form of defense. The Control Ward (and the Vision Ward before it) both have higher HP than other wards, and regenerate, which makes up for their 'weakness' of being visible. What if there was a ward that granted sight in the standard AoE, but was only placeable on terrain, and could be seen by the enemy through the Fog of War? It could only be attacked by ranged champions, but was captured for your team instead of being destroyed? It could also be outplayed by using invisibility spells or by avoiding it entirely, since it's position was apparent to all. And due the constraint of only being placeable on terrain, gaps in the Fog of War like what I mentioned with the LCS Elise example earlier would be possible. There is a lot Riot could do to support stealth gameplay, and I think they should draw inspiration from the various enemies of stealth games, since our wards largely fulfill the functions of AI guards.
KOG IRL (NA)
: ***
I added some pretty pictures to make it easier on the eyes. Edit: Shame we can't wrap text.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=DrugsForRobots,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=xWXpfBeZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-26T02:05:19.134+0000) > > -Has 'seer' in his title. > > -Literally a giant floating eye artifact above his head. > > -Not one vision granting ability. > > I am disappoint son. His (W) Dream Walk allows him to safely scout for his team while granting true vision...
I'm blind! Still only one ability, still am disappoint ;c
: Weilon the Dream Seer
-Has 'seer' in his title. -Literally a giant floating eye artifact above his head. -Not one vision granting ability. I am disappoint son.
: > Like I talk about, wards with weaknesses like this would encourage players to mix and match the different kinds of wards and layer them to create a defensive network I think you played too much of silly stealth games. See, once one LoL player find the best 'defensive network', everyone will use it the next morning. Once a pro player 'outplays' one kind of ward with say Fizz, the next morning all Fizzes are immune to this particular kind of ward. This is not a good gameplay at all.
I don't think there would be a best defensive network, just like there is no best team comp or build. Some may be better than others, but a lot of it is circumstantial. And just because a Pro does something doesn't mean all those emulating him are capable of the same thing - hence different skill levels. Even if Fizz had an easier time outplaying a ward like I described, there could be / should be other wards that offer a different form of defense that players would pickup in order to hinder Fizz, the same way players adapt their build.
: > A visible ward that grants sight in a visible rotating cone. Now see, that's just nonsense, if it's visible noone will get spotted ever. They will either take a different route or, if it's possible (depending on how fast it rotates and how wide the cone is), walk right past it. This offers no protection at all.
Depending on how skilled they were and what champion they are playing and the speed and width of the cone, yes, it would be entirely possible to dodge it. This is were teamwork comes in. Like I talk about, wards with weaknesses like this would encourage players to mix and match the different kinds of wards and layer them to create a defensive network - a sort of obstacle course that challenges the enemy jungler. And as I mentioned, the wards can afford to be FREE like trinkets and more powerful, perhaps even lasting 5 minutes or more. Player's would also likely feel safe once they have 1-2 wards and 1-2 trinkets guarding a particular path, in which case they would expect to be ganked from another angle. And again, it makes champions with built-in vision granting abilities more value for those abilities, and it opens up the room for Riot to create some incredible supports with emphasis on scouting and denying vision, for example, an oracle / seer / watcher support champion.
: Well, the way it works now, that kinda HAS to be the case. Because if people were allowed to stay in stealth while still dealing damage {{champion:17}} {{item:3068}}, these boards would start an uproar and demand every single champion that uses stealth be nerfed to the ground, and then nerf some ADC's as well, just because.
I think you misunderstand me: stealth and invisibility are not the same thing. Every champion // player can use stealth, because stealth is behavior, a mindset, a playstyle. Invisibility is the status state. What Riot calls 'camouflage' is just invisibility with proximity as a parameter. You'll notice Riot uses the word 'stealth' almost exclusively to refer to the status state of invisibility and not to stealth gameplay. It would be possible to have a passive or active for Duskblade that proactively pointed out the nearest enemy ward (without revealing it) and possibly using something like Eve's eye indicator to tell the Duskblade holder whether or not they've been seen. Then they could avoid / maneuver around that ward without being seen. AFAIK, no champion can attack and remain invisible - the very act of being attacked by someone you don't see causes them to be revealed as apart of League's systems.
: > I commonly give the example of a stealth game where the guards are all invisible and their position is unknown. The position of a ward can be estimated by careful observation of the laner. If they placed a ward without you knowing it, they outplayed you in the vision game. I'm not totally against idea of fallible wards - although I can't see how this would be executed - but I think that state of vision game is much better than you say. Avoiding being spotted is most definitely not about trial and error in LoL.
>The position of a ward can be estimated by careful observation of the laner. Relying on context clues to infer whether or not you've already been seen is kind of cool, I admit, but the problem still remains: you were tasked with dodging something that you couldn't see and didn't know was there, and so were spotted. >If they placed a ward without you knowing it, they outplayed you in the vision game. This is almost a fair argument, but it doesn't offer any counterplay of its own. We're either required to have a specific anti-ward counter-item (which takes the impetus away from player action and makes it akin to a stat-check), or foreknowledge of the enemy's ward (which requires racing them to put down our own wards.) There are very few ways to know a location is warded and then to plan around that knowledge to execute your gank because wards don't have overt clues or indicators giving away their presence. As such, you either approach for a gank, infer that it isn't warded, and proceed to gank; or, you approach, realize it is warded, clear the ward or walk off, and come back some time later i.e. trial and error. >I can't see how this would be executed A visible ward that grants sight in a visible rotating cone. Because it's vision is visible, it can't be hidden from enemies, and they can use their knowledge of it to outplay it. And due to it being able to be outplayed, it can afford to be FREE and much much more powerful, for example, it could afford to be indestructible and grant True Sight, and if it spots and enemy, it's cone of sight will linger on them / follow them until they leave it. Even this functionality offers room for counterplay and the ability to mislead enemies.
Basshead (NA)
: So one way to implement this currently is to let stealth wards only keep their invisibility when they are are outside of bushes, but wards that are in bushes become visible. Here's my reasoning why, usually when you place wards outside of bush, they don't get a nice 360 view, they become more like a cone like you said, and fail more when outside the brush. I do agree that bush control is a big advantage so thats why trading the ward's invisibility to put it there might be a fair cost. All theory crafting aside, it's just hard to change the current dynamic of face checking since its such a long standing tradition of the game. This is such an interesting topic, that I believe requires alot of playtesting through custom game modes or minigames because the vision rules create so much impact on gameplay balance. Just the redefining of champion stealth last preseason was a huge game changer. You are probably right that there is room for improvement in the ward system, but i'm sure they are little nuggets of gold that are hard to fine and changes will come slowly.
I think having fallible wards like I'm imagining would encourage / necessitate face-checking, as players would not have the reliability or convenience of using said wards to avoid face-checking. Such an environment would make champion's with with vision-granting abilities more valuable, as well as the use of Sweeper and Farsight Orb to scout with.
: I love this. I love this so much. Wards in League have the problem of something along the lines of killstreaks in the new Call of Duty games (shhh, just listen). In CoD, you rarely ever get killstreaks. And if you don't have some top-tier killstreak of your own to counter someone else's killstreak or invent your time and effort into defeating it manually, you're in for a bland, hopeless, and _boring_ time having to put up with it for its duration. In League, you don't get many wards in the early game. But when you do, you're basically set. You're safe when they're down, no matter what happens, and the only way the enemy team can destroy these wards is by either spending 75 gold {{item:2055}} or restricting themselves of having actual wards of their own with {{item:3341}}. If wards were more abundant (to give everyone incentive to place them), but able to be countered by the player (and not an item), there would be more gameplay strategies to use, and it wouldn't just be a battle of "Ha I warded there, nerd."
I think the worst offender (and the one that illustrates Riot's failure to promote stealth gameplay) is Duskblade of Drakkthar. {{item:3147}} It is an item ostensibly meant for assassins, but anyone can use and abuse it's Nightstalker passive, because literally every champion in the game can become invisible thanks to the way the FoW works (enabled by terrain, brush, and our heroes' limited fields-of-view.) Even worse, the Blackout passive only works _after_ you've already been seen, meaning that it doesn't really promote stealth gameplay. It is almost always reactive rather than proactive.
Rioter Comments
: I tend to agree. The hard bit, though, is to figure out what kind of power fantasy a stealth support has. It needs to be a compelling character. Rakan is pretty unique, and I think he largely succeeds as a character because the "battle dancer" is a compelling fantasy for him. His personality fits well with his character goal of "distract the enemy with shiny colors." I think there is room for a scout fantasy to work here. We already have Teemo, though, who [mostly] fails at being a traditional support due to his need for damage. I think if his W were reworked, he could be a much more compelling support, and any new scout support would need to figure out how to do that without treading too much on Teemo's power fantasy.
I actually designed two supports that hopefully emphasize stealth gameplay like what I was talking about. ---- #Imoen, An Honest Thief https://pre00.deviantart.net/18db/th/pre/i/2017/027/1/3/imoen_league_of_legends_yordle_thief_altcolor_by_drugsforrobots-dawyujt.png Imoen is a Support-Marksman and a crafty thief. Wielding her magical key, she is capable of picking locks and opening doors from a distance, letting her travel unseen down dark and mysterious corridors. She can also spy on enemies from afar through special keyholes and stealing potent spells en route to your allies or those aimed at her. She is adept at hiding, capable of attacking without being revealed - although her attacks give away her position - and very lucky (she loves critical chance!) Always seeking to have fun, she can find treasures under enemy towers and inside their base that reward both her and her allies, and she hide secrets all over the map to surprise her friends and bamboozle the bad guys! You can find her Board page [here](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/cXq7B5Iw-champion-concept-imoen-an-honest-thief-yordle-support-marksman) and her LoL Wiki page [here](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:LivesByProxy/Heir_To_Blackblade:_Fulfilling_League%27s_Thief_Fantasy), with her newest LoL Wiki page in-progress with updated abilities [here](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User:LivesByProxy/Imoen_Sandbox#P). (The first two links have design notes / champion insights if you're interested.) ---- #Oracle, the World's Witness https://pre00.deviantart.net/37a3/th/pre/i/2016/319/4/f/oracle_concept_art_2_by_drugsforrobots-daokw0s.png Oracle is a is a vigilant Support-Mage in League of Legends. Playing on the archetype of the psychic and sage, she is a dedicated defensive pick, great at scouting safely and spotting your enemies far in advance thanks to her Third Eye which her abilities are tied to. Requiring time to use her spells, prediction and positioning are key to her success. Despite being a fairly weak combatant, Oracle offers her team great utility and, played correctly, is very hard to catch unaware. Left unhindered, she can change the course of a fight and the future of the game. You can find her Board page [here](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/O8EHvQUa-champion-concept-oracle-the-worlds-witness-vision-based-support-champion) and her LoL Wiki page [here](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:LivesByProxy/Oracle,_the_World%27s_Witness). (Her abilities have changed a bit between these posts, and are up for further change, but you can find my design notes / champion insights on both if you're interested.)
: I'm very satisfied with those responses to my arguments, and I consider myself defeated on most fronts. What I will say, though, is that the amount of mindshare all those changes would take up is simply too great; I think if the game revolved around this much stealth it would be overpowering. There's a lot to be said for the other facets of League, and that's why the stealth game isn't more intricate. I'm sure you don't agree with that, but that's a much more subjective thing. It may be possible, you've convinced me, to make adjustments to the point that the stealth game was more interesting. But I'm not convinced that the game would be better off for it. Perhaps playing the stealth champs would be, but I don't know about the game as a whole.
Fair enough. I will add though, that I think such a change would receive the kind of reception that the jungle plants did: scorn and derision from the player base upon reveal, followed by Riot gritting their teeth and gambling the community would find it more fun than it seemed, followed by the player based reluctantly admitting they were wrong and finally embracing that plants were fun and added a lot to the game. X)
: I definitely disagree with you on most of these points. To me, it's pretty obvious that single-player stealth mechanics from games like Thief, Assassin's Creed, or Splinter Cell are never going to translate well in League. In those games, there's no second party feeling salty if the stealth player plays perfectly. The whole point of the systems that we have in League is that they have *counter-play*. Players can do something about the invisible champions on the Rift. If wards have cones of vision, how do you defend against an Eve gank? You don't. You just die to it. For invisibility to have a good place in the game, stealth (as you've defined it) has to be thrown out as a major design point for champions. League is largely a game about information and positioning. The amount of stealth inherent to the game is enough; we don't need champions who can gank undetected. You say it's "hard" to sneak around a Kalista sentinel, but it actually isn't. That's part of the problem. The 2D nature of the gameplay, and the fact that laners are always visible, means that there is no actual difficulty barrier to a jungler pulling off a gank undetected, other than wards. You spend the money on them or you don't, and you play mind games around where they are. That's the gameplay of League of Legends. The changes you are proposing would require an entirely new game to support. This game would be be unplayable with those changes, imo, and I think it does a disservice to the game designers to act like they simply haven't thought of this option. Like you've said yourself, there's plenty of games out there that have better stealth mechanics; they're aware of those. The issue is how to translate those into a 2D MOBA, and I would largely agree with them if they just commented on this thread and said "we can't." You've got the goals backwards on this from how Riot thinks of it. Riot *isn't trying to introduce interesting stealth mechanics into LoL.* That isn't even their goal. Their goal is to try to fulfill the fantasy of a stealthy character onto Summoner's Rift, and that's an entirely different goal from creating interesting stealth gameplay. That's not to say that this conversation isn't interesting; I enjoyed the read and you bring up some good points. My main feedback, to re-iterate, is that I think Riot has no delusions about this; I bet if you were to ask them point blank, they'd just say, "Yeah, this isn't a stealth game. It's a MOBA," and I think that's a perfectly valid defense. Stealth is problematic to them because they're designing a MOBA, and it's difficult to do stealth well in that design space without making "stealth" champs OP. It's not more complicated than that, imo.
1st off, thank you for the genuine response - you raise some good points. Now, to argue against them: >In those games, there's no second party feeling salty if the stealth player plays perfectly. > >The whole point of the systems that we have in League is that they have counter-play. Players can do something about the invisible champions on the Rift. If wards have cones of vision, how do you defend against an Eve gank? You don't. You just die to it. I've expressed my desire to see most champions with innate invisibility mechanics have tell-tale signs / audio & visual cues. I've implored Riot to make Shaco's evil laugh audible with a huge range as mean of adding counter-play to his invisibility, for example. I think Eve and Twitch need them as well to make them more fair. I also think the solution to having FREE but fallible wards is that players would be given enough options / tools to layer their defenses so as to make ganking even more challenging. For example, using two of the wards I mentioned (that I call Sentry Wards) to nearly block off a gank route. Another ward I thought of was one directly drawing inspiration from Riot: what they called the Mandrake Ward, I called the Snitch. It would be invisible, but grant no vision. If an enemy came within its range, it would grant a visible and audible ping for you and allies, but the enemy can hear the ping. This little bit of information is something they can use to engage in stealth gameplay. I think more wards that explore unique vision / information design spaces are needed. I also imagine a system where players can also have 1 FREE (but fallible) powerful ward and 1 FREE (but fallible) weaker trinket, with the ward occupying the trinket slot, overriding trinket use until placed. >For invisibility to have a good place in the game, stealth (as you've defined it) has to be thrown out as a major design point for champions. League is largely a game about information and positioning. The amount of stealth inherent to the game is enough; we don't need champions who can gank undetected. This is something else I've addressed before. Every champion can use stealth, and Riot has no problem with J4 being told "that brush is warded" approaching from another direction, and ganking aka ambushing the enemy out of no-where (i.e. undetected). I think if we had wards like I'm suggesting, it would be more challenging for him to gank, whilst champion's like Shaco and Eve and company would have more tools that enabled them to outplay the enemy's ward defenses. But again, I do think those champions should have audio and visual clues associated with their invis. >You say it's "hard" to sneak around a Kalista sentinel, but it actually isn't. That's part of the problem. The 2D nature of the gameplay, and the fact that laners are always visible, means that there is no actual difficulty barrier to a jungler pulling off a gank undetected, other than wards. You spend the money on them or you don't, and you play mind games around where they are. I said it was 'challenging', which I think is true. I think Kali's Sentinel's pose a greater challenge than face-checking into a Control Ward, or even inferring that the brush you just entered is warded. And I think Kali's Sentinels pose a greater challenge when their are 2 or 3 of them patrolling a tight jungle corridor. Likewise, trying to dodge her Sentinel's and Shaco's Boxes and Wards is very challenging. Of course, its nearly impossible to dodge Boxes and Wards since they're invisible, but imagine if they gave some clue that they were there, or some overt indicator that they were there. Players of all skill-levels would beginning planning how to execute their gank, and it would be a show of skill to properly execute. I don't think their enemy's would feel salty, because they would know that they had plenty of defenses up and that the enemy jungler was 1) very skilled, and / or 2) that they needed to rethink their defense arrangement. >The changes you are proposing would require an entirely new game to support. This game would be be unplayable with those changes, imo Maybe, but I don't think so. I think we just need 1) more warding options that have unique trade-offs and functions, 2) trinkets following the same design, which they set the precedent for, 3) tell-tale signs & audio / visual clues on our invis abilities, 4) clarity with our icons and indicators about who is visible and who can be seen (check my infographic if you're unsure about what I mean.) >I think it does a disservice to the game designers to act like they simply haven't thought of this option. Like you've said yourself, there's plenty of games out there that have better stealth mechanics; they're aware of those. The issue is how to translate those into a 2D MOBA, and I would largely agree with them if they just commented on this thread and said "we can't." But Riot has, and they are. They've done it before. CertainlyT more or less said the same thing, but then he turns around and designed Kalista with her Sentinel's, Thresh with his Lantern, and Zyra with her Plants, and Warwick with his Blood Scent. All of these abilities are information granting abilities, and vision and stealth are intertwined: _the vision game is the stealth game._ Another example is Shaco. He has 3 abilities that all let him engage in stealth gameplay, which is the most of any champion in the game. His Q turns him invisible, but his W gives him unrivaled information. I think its the strongest champion vision ability in the game because they're functionally wards that bite - their sight radius is huge. Also, his R lets him scout ahead, which is obviously stealth gameplay, and mislead foes, including counteracting detection abilities like Rek'Sai's Tremor Sense and Warwick's Blood Scent. >You've got the goals backwards on this from how Riot thinks of it. Riot isn't trying to introduce interesting stealth mechanics into LoL. That isn't even their goal. Their goal is to try to fulfill the fantasy of a stealthy character onto Summoner's Rift, and that's an entirely different goal from creating interesting stealth gameplay. I can't think of any better way to fulfill the stealthly character's fantasy than to provide an ecosystem and environment where they can put their skills to the test and really shine and be valued for what they offer - more ways of dodging and evading and misleading the enemy's security defenses and getting info on them - all of which _is_ stealth gameplay. >"Yeah, this isn't a stealth game. It's a MOBA," and I think that's a perfectly valid defense. Stealth is problematic to them because they're designing a MOBA, and it's difficult to do stealth well in that design space without making "stealth" champs OP. It's not more complicated than that, imo. We call stealth games stealth games because they have a critical mass of mechanics and elements and level design that supports stealth gameplay. I think League already has a fair amount of this, but they need more. They don't need to make League a stealth game, but they should recognize that stealth is a fundamental part of League, as fundamental as combat. League, of all the MOBAs I've seen (and I researched) has the best systems and designs for support stealth gameplay. Basically, I think they can do it, if only they would try. :)
: Stealth isn't a problem for riot really, not sure where people believe stealth is a issue. The problem is that people don't want to put the effort to actually " Being careful" hate to break it to you guys but usually the people who have the hardest time with steath are low elo's simply because they refuse to ward, properly, they refuse to use items properly , and they refuse play properly I love eve and twitch and other stealth characters in low elo cause its laughable on how many people don't use pink wards, how many people don't use or upgrade the Scan trinket. how many people always wander off to a lane alone split pushing or trying to invade a unwarded jungle its just like thank you for handing me a free kill. And most stealth characters are super squishy. which is smart. you catch them get to close or any thing like that BAM they dead.. ** Yes in this game its considered a sort "invisibility" but to be fair its a form of being stealthy because you're having having to maneuver your self in order to get to a point, much like hiding in a Box trying to move around guards to get the drop on them or kill them . The problem with this is you're a idiot. hate to break out the name calling but let me finish. You say that riot is using MMO's and other things for stealth mechanics instead of the actual Stealth of games like Metal gear or thief. The issue you're seeing here is In thief and Metal gear, is that you're being Stealthy Around NPC's that literally run on predictable and set patterns. if you watch them for a time you can figure it out and be "Stealthy" around them Games like Moba's You're playing vs a Actively live person who views the entire map form a top down formula with things like Wards. hate to break it to you , But that destroys any type of "Stealth" playing unless you actively give them a way around wards " example stealth / cloak" The issue is when you play a game like Metal gear, or hitman, or Theif you're play a Third person or first person game where you see in front of you or over the shoulder, you don't have a top down view of the map. Also you're not playing vs NPC's that follow set patters, and have a Coned Vision sense. No you're playing from a top down view with people who move around randomly to no rhyme or reason who can place magical all seeing Eyes around a map that are invisible so no you need a way around the all seeing eyes and around the fact that the map is literally a top down game. thus Moba's and RTS's have developed Stealth. Even with WoW the reason stealth was so big in MMo's cause a lot of the fields you play in Are Open flat worlds They aren't as clustered in design that a smaller Single person Action game would be. you're not fighting in a Sky rise city with tons of buildings MMo's you're usually out in a open Field plains, or a Open area' in a forest with ankle high grass in Moba's you're fighting in a set lanes with no real structures to randomly hide behind ( not like you can cause I can see form above) so your entire argument becomes invalid because you're trying to take one Genre of games and with out logically thinking of how those games were made, and comparing them to games that nothing alike you sir are literally accusing riot of some thing that you yourself are doing yea riot is looking at stealth from MMO's and other games like that.. well yea that's cause Stealth in those games matches and makes more sense when being applied to this type of game then trying to add Stealth the sense of games like MG and Thief. cause those games again are Completely different in design and structure.
Copy-Paste from [my essay about Stealth & Vision](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTJsB8hmNMil_LeaNJmmUh62EKI2W58Ma_QaO0oeKsl1QUZiZnoh5xW6KO9rCZkLgh2o6WEEs7r1ozc/pub): _“Our original goal was to provide enough feedback through dialog, animation, and behaviors so that players wouldn’t require in-world UI feedback. Before the UI was added, we already had a lot of granularity with the AI responses to failure. They shout things that are specific to their sensory input, i.e. “I heard that!” or “I see you!” This is crucial to tell the player how they’re failing stealth. [...] In the end, we realized that some players were just lost without UI to make the game system explicit. [...] This kind of UI reinforcement was necessary for letting them know that this is an analog system with partial fail built in.”_ ---- Seth Shain, Producer & Systems Designer of Dishonored In would be inappropriate to call League a stealth game. However, stealth is a fundamental part of League’s core gameplay, just as much as combat. The primary mover of League is undeniably comba thought. Each player’s HP allows for partial failure. They tend to perform just as well at 1% HP as 100%. In stealth games, the margin for failure is much lower. Games where the margin for failure is non-existent or where detection results in instant failure state (game-over) are often panned as being bad (and rightly so.) In general, the best stealth games tend to feature a partial failure margin, the larger the better. These games allow players to fudge a bit and still recover. Guards might vocally announce their suspicion or give the player some visual clue they’ve been spotted, such as a question mark, a ‘last known position indicator’, or slowly turning to look in the player’s direction. The player then has a brief moment to evade or otherwise misdirect the guard. In any stealth game, the player starts the game with the game-world ignorant of the player. He is invisible. Using his information advantage, he can scout out his surroundings and spy on his foes. This is important because, unlike the hypothetical scenario mentioned earlier, his foes (the guards) are visible and very audible. They give away a lot of information that the player can then capitalize on to make sure he isn't discovered. This is stealth gameplay. Additionally, every good stealth game gives the players varied but specific tools for dealing with the game’s environment and enemies. Every tool has a specific purpose: A blackjack will let you KO guards, but only for a limited time, and if they’re wearing helmets then KO’ing them becomes much harder if not impossible. A dagger will permanently stop a guard if he’s caught unaware, but then it leaves behind blood and a body - evidence of your passing - and if you fail to cut his throat then it is hardly a match for the guard’s long sword. A garrote, like the other two items, can be used to KO a guard, maybe temporarily maybe permanently, but guards will put up a struggle - it’s more time consuming to choke them out vs bonking them on the head or slitting their throat - and perhaps larger guards can’t be choked out at all. In most stealth games, the status state of the world and enemies presents a particular obstacle for designers. What happens when a player fails stealth? Does the player automatically lose the game and need to restart from a previous checkpoint? Or do guards pursue and hunt the player? For how long? Are they all alerted at once if the player is detected or are they isolated unless they retreat for reinforcements? Can they fight and kill the player? How can the player escape and resume stealth, i.e. recover the information advantage? Is the guard permanently on higher alert now that the AI has seen the player? Or is the AI laughably forgetful? This was the challenge facing the folks at Looking Glass when they were creating Thief: The Dark Project. Their carefully crafted simulation could risk ‘unwinding’ - breaking into a state of total chaos where the player is fully detected, can’t recover the information advantage (i.e. lose his pursuers or pacify / neutralize them), and all of his or her resources were depleted. At that point, the only thing the player could do was reload and try again. They also risked the entire simulation becoming ‘solved’. Given enough time, the player could pacify or neutralize every enemy within the level, rendering the need for stealth obsolete, as KO’ing a guard was as permanent as killing him. Thief: The Dark Project is worth studying due to its influence on the stealth genre. Fortunately, League largely avoids these issues due to the game world resetting every match and it being a PvP environment. In PvP games, which are overwhelming about combat, failing stealth is not the simulation unwinding or becoming solved. The game's progression requires players failing at stealth, or put another way, for some player to succeed at stealth. Stealth is the prelude to combat, combat being the driving force of the game. Whether the less stealthy player lives or dies, they’ve lost pressure. The stealthy team can stay one step ahead, either outmaneuvering their opponents entirely or ambushing them to lethal (or nearly lethal) effect. However, the stealthy player doesn’t always necessarily create pressure. Stealth requires watching, waiting, and advancing cautiously - a deliberate effort to evade your foes. To gain the information advantage, a player must give up lane pressure. This means that there is a natural ebb and flow between combat and stealth in League. Players use stealth to gain a combat advantage and once they’ve defeated their foes (or forced them back to base) they abandon stealth for the moment as they push down their enemy’s lanes and attempt destroy their Towers. Stealth is resumed as both teams vye for the information advantage - the one to set a trap and pounce, the other to avoid the trap and elude their predators. This vying for the information advantage takes the form of setting down wards in League, and Sweeping for wards and scouting with the Farsight Alteration, respectively. In PvE games, the players are attempting to sneak past AI controlled enemies. The AI has intentionally been limited to give players the upper hand. Their cones-of-vision are not accurate to reality, their movement is often slower and clunkier than that of the player character (whose mobility enables him or her to retain the information advantage, reach places the AI can’t like the Blink power in Dishonored or the grappling hook in Tenchu: Stealth Assassins), and often the AI is laughably forgetful. All of this is to enable the player to feel powerful, to fulfil the fantasy of being the badass ninja, spy, or assassin. Stealth is the player’s ultimate weapon - knowledge is power after all, and when no one knows you are there you are exponentially more powerful than you would be otherwise. League of Legends and other PvP environment pose a challenge for developers and designers. The players aren’t trying to outwit a limited AI, but another player. This means that the player attempting stealth needs the clarity of information to assure he hasn’t been seen, so that he can plan properly and reliably execute those plans, but that his opponent also needs enough information and clarity of information so that they can reliably plan against and counteract their would be hunter. Players’ characters do not give out vocal clips whenever their alert status changes for one thing. Players must closely observe their enemies movements to see if that enemy has knowledge of their presence and need sharp eyes to pick up on the tell-tale signs of danger. If you approach a lane and you see the enemy back off, you can infer that it’s probably warded and you’ve been seen. You’ll see Pros and high ELO players use their opponent’s expectations to great effect. They will actually remain calm and feign ignorance of the incoming gank, luring their would-be ganker into a counter-gank. Likewise, sudden aggression by their lane opponent, or that opponent sticking to a particular side of the lane, signals to the Pros that their opponent has an unseen ally waiting in the wings. It is certainly a skill to infer where your opponent is likely to be, or whether or not they can see you, but I think League would gain more from making it explicit to players when they can be seen - by making them conscious of the opponent having information on them, Riot can reinforce stealth gameplay and players can still express skill in deftly maneuvering around their and dodging their opponent’s security devices. To reiterate, I think balancing stealth gameplay in League is a matter of having a variety of means of getting and denying information, as well as clarity regarding when we can and cannot be seen. Things like proper indicators for True Sight and Standard Sight, as well as tell-tale signs and audio-visual clues can be tools in the player’s toolbox. ------ But more specifically to your comments: >you're not playing vs NPC's In the above post I talk about how wards fulfill the function on NPC 'guards' in League. >in Moba's you're fighting in a set lanes with no real structures to randomly hide behind ( not like you can cause I can see form above) Terrain allows players to hide behind it, since it blocks line-of-sight. It's possible to ambush someone this way, and doing so is an example of stealth gameplay. Brush is obviously another example. >so your entire argument becomes invalid because you're trying to take one Genre of games and with out logically thinking of how those games were made, and comparing them to games that nothing alike League's entire top-down isometric perspective is derived from the RTS genre... from which it was born. I explicitly trace-out how Warcraft III led to DotA led to LoL
: Stealth began in D&D. Not long after, the first rouge got murdered by some goblins after getting a little too far ahead of his party and failing his stealth check.
I reference this when I refer to MMORPGs having their roots in pen-and-paper RPGs. I was also tracing the evolution of stealth in MMORPGs and RTSs which are the predecessors of League as much as DnD is the predecessor to those genres.
Bunnymap (NA)
: The question is how would you possibly fix this. I think we can all agree on nothing to do with % chances to detect someone. I’m not also a big fan of having to face someone to see them in stealth. That might work in a game like DotA with turn speed, but with the instant twisting and turning our champions that we have in league it would just feel bad. Camouflage could be changed to create a slight distortion of vision around where the area of the champion is (I’m not talking about a simple hard to see outline, silhouette. Something more like a slight shading difference, very slight light bending). The better solution would require more effort and be a bit more confusing, but would be much better balancable. That soulution would be to go and create a unique stealth mechanic for each champion (Not necessarily 100% unique for every champion, but different for those who need it). Say something like an ability that creates shadows that you’re invisibility while in (Nocturne VGU?), or Rengar creating distortions in the direction that he’s coming from. Champs could still have a detection range, but it would greatly reduced to make stealth champs feel better to play. Edit: I completely missed the part about the Subtlety and Detection stats. Whoops. My opinion is that it’s too hard to balance for every champion, but it might be interesting to look into it. There’s also the issue of showing the detection range to the invisible champion. If everyone has a different detection range, there would be no reliable way to make it work.
I actually address this in my Mega-Post essay about Stealth & Vision, but I'll reiterate: I think the issue is that Riot is not promoting stealth gameplay, which every player and champion can engage in due to League's systems, i.e. the Fog of War enabled by brush and terrain and our heroes' limited fields-of-view, as well as SFX and audio cues. What Riot has done by using the word 'stealth' when they're actually talking about 'invisibility' is too muddle their thinking (IMO) and create confusion among their players. Stealth and invisibility are not synonymous. One is behavior, a mindset, and a playstyle. The other is a status state. If you've ever waited patiently in a bush for an enemy to facecheck, you were using stealth (in the true sense of the word). Invisibility is a prerequisite for stealth gameplay, as is superior information (which invisibility allows), but they are distinctly different. It is entirely possible to be invisible and not be stealthy. The idea of 'camouflage' illustrates my point. It is on-demand invisibility with proximity as a parameter. Some key Rioters seem to think of it as a subtype of stealth, but as previously stated, stealth is behavior. So the question is, does this invisibility with proximity as a parameter encourage a certain kind of behavior? Yes, it does. It makes the player conscientious of their positioning in a way that other forms of invisibility don't. It's a single step towards encouraging stealth gameplay. I think better visual and aural clues (tell-tale signs) like you mention would add a lot of counterplay to invisibility, and that is desirable so that the champions with innate invisibility can afford to be strong (rather than neutered like they have been historically), and I would like to see each form of invisibility come with it's own way of encouraging stealth gameplay (stealth as behavior) but the issue of Riot not promoting stealth gameplay needs more than that. The real problem with stealth gameplay in League is that our wards don't encourage stealth gameplay - just the opposite. It is impossible to sneak around or avoid something (i.e. use stealth) that you can't see and that has an unknown position. Wards also encourage players to sacrifice information (give the enemy knowledge of their position) in order to destroy them, which is be a cool trade-off in moderation, but its the primary way of interacting with wards, and too often it requires one of a handful of specific anti-ward counter items. I often give the example of a visible, indestructible ward with a visible rotating cone of True Sight vision. You can't hide in in a brush because of the way it works (its cone of vision being visible like ASol's Stars), but it can be disabled via auto-attacks or some other ward-disabling effect. Think about the kind of gameplay that this ward encourages. You can interact with it, but it gives you a chance to avoid it entirely, just like a guard in a traditional stealth game. Due to it having counterplay, it can afford to be FREE _and_ more powerful than a trinket. I think the future of wards is exploring the design space of possible with vision effects. This means making wards more interactable and giving them more overt counterplay (ways to outmaneuver and dodge them). This is stealth gameplay at its core. We could deny our enemies vision, not by destroying their wards, but through stealth gameplay. Another example would be Kalista's Sentinels. Because they are visible and you can know what they see, they offer players a chance to be stealthy. Yet they can be a challenge to sneak past, which is exactly what ganking should be. Sneak past your opponent's vision defenses - defenses that are powerful enough to give them the feeling of security, but not fool-proof. Riot has kind of done this with Control Wards. They give themselves away if they disable on of your wards, giving you knowledge of it, allowing you to avoid it. Unfortunately, the Control Ward, along with the Blue Farsight Trinket Ward become invisible if placed in brush, meaning you can't preemptively dodge them. The other 2 kinds of wards, the Yellow Totem Trinket Ward and the Stealth Wards from SightStone are invisible by default, which, again, limits their interactivity. To drive the point home, think about this: do the champions with innate invisibility (Rengar, Twitch, Shaco, Evelynn, etc.) need to change the way the play due to wards? Currently, not really. The entire purpose of their invisibility is to allow them to bypass wards, but the way that wards work does not require them to be any more conscientious about their positioning or timing because they can't see the wards they're trying to bypass. Their on-demand invisibility lets them ignore wards, not outplay them. I could go on and on, and while I don't mind conversing with one person, it feels kind of fruitless if no one else cares to read / participate in the dialogue. P.S. I think Nocturne would benefit greatly from more ways of denying vision / engaging in stealth gameplay. Perhaps his Paranoia could last longer? Maybe his Duskbringer could reduced enemy vision like his Paranoia? Maybe his Shroud of Darkness could turn him invis if it absorbs a spell, rather than grant him AS? I think Riot was on the right track with giving Rengar's prey a visual indicator and audio cues, and it baffles me that Riot has not given Twitch or Evelynn an audio cue. Likewise, Shaco, my main, has a visual indicator (a puff of smoke) and an audio cue (an evil laugh upon disappearing) but the latter is practically inaudible. I think if Shaco could be heard within a fair distance when he uses Deceive, he could afford to be more powerful, and thus feel better, while still giving enemies fair counterplay.
Rioter Comments
: Can we give Shaco a good passive please? One fitting of an Assassin?
I think Riot could cleanly incorporate Shaco's current passive into his E passive, and give him a new passive entirely. For Example: #Last Laugh: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/22/LivesByProxy_JestersCapCloseUp.png/revision/latest?cb=20160506003531 Shaco's basic attack will stun enemy champions for 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 seconds - forcing them to laugh uncontrollably - if it drops them below 10 / 12.5 / 15% of their maximum health. (9s On-Target Static CD) So if Shaco jumps on someone, and bursts them, but not quite kills them, he eventually gets to stun them with a basic attack. It means Shaco can be bursty, but doesn't have to have the 100-0 <2s insta-burst Riot dislikes so much. This is effectively an execute, but one that requires Shaco to finish the job.
: I hate it. especially on adcs. cough.
I think the problem with stealth in League is that what Riot calls stealth is better called invisibility, because that's what it is. Stealth is behavior, a mindset, a playstyle. Invisibility is a status state. Every player can engage in stealth gameplay with any champion due to League's systems like the Fog of War, enabled by brush and terrain and our heroes' limited fields-of-view. The Rioter's aren't thinking of stealth gameplay though, as the word 'stealth' is used exclusively to describe the status state of invisibility. Stealth and invisibility are not synonymous. Riot could fix a lot of the problems with invisibility in their game if they focused on enabling / reinforcing / promoting stealth gameplay.
Rioter Comments
: Both the infographic and the essay are tremendously good work, and I thank you very much for posting this! I very much agree with what you said: stealth gameplay in League is full of potential, but heavily underdeveloped, and I agree that part of it comes from the MMO design of stealth being implemented purely as invisibility. I also very much agree that vision is similarly not implemented in the most interesting manner: wards are utterly boring, and I feel one of the reasons why there's such a discrepancy across ranked divisions in their usage, and the associated quality of play in the game, isn't so much because people don't know how to use them, as it is that most care so little about them as a gameplay effect that they have to actively remind themselves to ward, as it very much comes across as a chore rather than an interesting activity. On top of that, though, champion abilities capable of revealing opponents often do so out of convenience, instead of truly contributing vision or detection as a unique, powerful asset, and this I think has led to a fair degree of (ironically) invisible power, where some effects just happen to have an impact cue or reveal attached, and where champions who would normally comes across as vision providers don't really fulfil that theme (Lux, for example, only reveals with her E and ult). Building upon both stealth and vision systems could add a whole new layer of gameplay what would come particularly in handy when designing and balancing assassins.
Thank you. As always you said as much or more than I could in fewer words! XD I apologize for the delay in my response time (life n stuff), but I do hope I've given Riot something to think about... I know I'm still thinking about this kind of stuff, even to the point of making my own game (a far-fetched dream, but maybe one day.)
: Like when {{champion:4}} Has his R icon above your head?
It's not clear to the player that the effect is True Sight. I want to see a sort of icon appear next to their health bar like what RIot has done for the various CC effects. TF is definitely not the worse case though.
: I think Twitch should leave a puff of "smell" every three seconds he's in stealth or something so you can suddenly see the sign and be on guard but if he's still moving then you won't know where he is exactly, just that he's nearby and where he just was.
I think audio cues would work better for Twitch - like he talks to himself out-loud, maybe he'd have specific lines that the Twitch player and his enemies knew he would say at certain distances or at certain points in time while he was invis. And not to be that guy, but we really should say, "while he's invisible" because you can be invisible and not be stealthy.
Kyunsei (EUW)
: Actually True sight icon is still used in ARAM, where you can buy the Oracle's Extract.
Well, I tried. My excuse is that I haven't played ARAM in months.
: I find the lack of teemo shrooms disgusting
I find Teemo's Shrooms disgusting, and the fact that they're countered by a FREE or 75g item even more disgusting. I think a better solution would be to make each explode in a DoT poison spore cloud. That way you can run out to avoid some damage, and in return they need no longer be countered by cheap items.
Altiverse (EUNE)
: Regarding the "3 years between Quinn and Ivern", Tahm Kench was released between them, and his Devour reduces enemies' vision (nearsighting them) while... they're inside him. cough.
I didn't include Tahm because he can't turn himself invisible, which all those other champions can do one way or another. I probably should have included Kayn though, since he turns invis with his Ult. However, like Elise, Kayn's invis is so heavily telegraphed that it doesn't lend itself to stealth gameplay.
: Shaco's Q stealth is true invisibility, control wards don't reveal it. They will make the boxes easy to kill though, but they need counterplay anyway because those things are absolutely nightmarish to play against if the Shaco builds AP, due to their high ratio and consistent dps over a few seconds.
I was referring to the now defunct Vision Ward, which was Riot's solution for... 4-5 years? Which should prove my point: rather than giving his abilities better / more counterplay, they'd sooner give player's a FREE or 75g item to counter Shaco. To add insult to injury, they proved they are willing to change his abilities, but they didn't change them in ways that would've given Shaco's opponent's better counterplay - they effectively just amounted to nerfs.
: All that would do is make her bad at high elo where people have an absolutely massive attention to detail generally, and good at low elo, where people are frequently as blind as a mole rat, assuming she got compensation buffs that she would clearly need because you just pointlessly nerfed an already mediocre champion.
People keep making a similar argument, but I want to see it tested. AFAIK, nothing like that has ever been tried, and Riot has instead relied on a system of hard-counters.
aspects1 (NA)
: you shoulda mentioned one thing theres a difference between invis and camo youd be surprised how many people still dont get that their control wards dont reveal the teemo in the bush or akali in shroud
While Riot classifies invis and camo as different, I didn't mention it because the larger issue of 'stealth' seemed more pertinent. I think they are handicapping themselves by thinking of stealth as a handful of specific champion mechanics, rather than as gameplay supported by League's systems.
: {{champion:74}} Grenade and Turrets if thrown in brush also reveals champs in same brush, also on rare occasions 1 of your 3 turrets online will bug out and keep shooting at an enemy that is left the area or well past its range of fire even if the turret is suppose to be deactivate #Ghost in the Turret.
I know certain AoEs reveal brush, but neither of those specific abilities debuff enemies as 'revealed' - they don't get the little eyes icon above their head. The #GhostInTheTurret is cool though, I didn't know that.
: They should bring back pink ward trinkets. I mean, if they aren't going to add audio cues to invisibility spells on champs that hold a lot of pressure when you don't see them on the map, there needs to be a way to hear if they are coming in, so that you can prepare accordingly.
The ability to drop a FREE instant speed AoE of True Sight on top of some of champions and negate their invis-ability was not fair or fun for the champion relying on invis. The absence of True Sight on a ward does hurt, but the functionality of the old Pink Wards was mostly unfair.
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DrugsForRobots

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