: Detailed Feedback on the current LeBlanc PBE state @AzuBK @Jinxylord / @RiotAugust
A thought I was having on the CD as that seems to be the biggest contentious issue with this revert. I think it is really unfair when you look at the three other champions that have spontaneous empowered Basic Abilities ( {{champion:43}} {{champion:74}} {{champion:107}} ) they all have things greatly improved over what LeBlanc is getting. Heimer’s has comparable CD, but GREATLY increased damage and effects. Karma has much more power and a lower CD AND CD reduction, and Rengar’s empower is comparable in Power Boost to LB, but his are tied to his passive, not his Ultimate, and is also on a reduced CD essentially. So obviously, I think she needs a little extra. Since she’s mostly considered an Assassin, I think something that works on High Risk, High Reward is what would suit her best, so here’s my thought. ———— Cooldown - Still moderately high, like 70/55/40 Added effect - If Mimic is on Cooldown and LeBlanc damages an enemy champion 4 times with her spells, its cooldown is reduced to 1 second. ———— I think this change would give back that incentive for LB players to go in for risky all-ins to get that reset and make her rethink the long-range poke idea. This way, she can also still wave clear late game with her Ult if she absolutely needs to but still feel like she has a way to be relevant if she has to fight someone. E.g. - Needing that reset, she jumps in with W, Q’s for damage (1 tick), throws an E (2 & 3 ticks) if she lands it, and then has to decide to stick around with the tether to get that last tick and get her Ult back.
: All Hail Swain, Noxian Grand...Support?
Don’t forget that his Passive’s Pull effect is used on any immobilized champion. So pair him with {{champion:22}} {{champion:51}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:498}} and you can have the, “No, you’re staying HERE bitch,” bot lane party.
Naramiel (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hey h0w r ya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZOyEPazm,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-16T18:58:34.471+0000) > > "Inting" is 0-20 with mobi boots and a tear > > "Trolling" is following around your jungler trying to steal every camp the whole game > > "AFK" is literally disconnecting from the game or sitting in base for an extended period longer then 5 minutes. To be fair, if someone: - rages and intentionally dies 2-3 times - trolls you by following and stealing your camps for PART of the game - rages and pushes a side lane for 5 minutes while the enemy team takes your base what are those? Yes, the examples you've given are clear-cut, but it's still vexing when someone int's, trolls or AFKs for _part_ of the game even if they don't do it from minute 0.
If I were split-pushing top lane while your team grouped mid, then the enemies engaged on them from fog-of-war and killed them all in a span of 4 seconds because they over-extended, then yes, I would let the 5 man enemy team kill our inhibitor turret and inhibitor while I tried to shove and pressure top lane, because I’m sure as hell not going to stop that group. The best I can do is try to gain something off of that loss. And yes, I’m going to likely keep doing that if it’s working and side lanes need pushing, because it’s probably the only thing keeping us in the game.
Leonidaź (EUW)
: Responding to Ask Riot post about obnoxious stuff.
Riiiiiiight, so I’ll preface this that I do think Zoe still needs some nerfs and is too strong, but seriously, your post is just filled with misinformation. Zoe does not have more range. Her Q is 800, Zed’s is 900. Zed can also fire his Q and E safely from his shadow if he uses it. Zoe needs to portal jump forward to extend it, or fire the Bubble through terrain. Both her Q and E have LONGER cooldowns than Zed. Zed Q has a faster travel speed, larger width, and travels through minions (albeit at reduced damage). Zoe’s Q stops at the first enemy hit, and explodes in a small radius for damage. Zed’s damage levels up faster with ranks and items, but Zoe gets the benefit of extra conditional damage for all these other drawbacks, including it taking about 3 seconds for her Q to hit a target after the initial cast in order to get full damage. Zed’s E is short range, but super low CD and AOE. Zoe’s E is a long CD, short range, single target CC (so it can be blocked by minions again) with a delay on it. Zed’s W is a non-targetted mobility spell with a long CD that can add damage from safety, escape enemies, dive a target, add extra damage if targets are hit by multiple spells, etc. Zoe’s W is contingent on her Summoner Spells (So SUPER long CD), or an RNG dropping hopefully useful stuff if she successfully kills the minion that has a bubble on it. It’s not an escape if she doesn’t get a Flash or Protobelt. Does piddly, uncontrollable damage, but does add a ridiculous level of utility. Ulti. Zed’s is a point-and-click Ult that does damage, creates an escape, makes him untargetable, and gap closes for him. Zoe’s Ult is a really low cooldown that briefly moves her (but brings her right back). Now, both these Ults are perfectly designed for the champion to help them utilize their goal with their kit. Now, with those comparisons out, let’s look at some of the things you claimed in your post. > [{quoted}](name=BDTalon NadedBD,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xPsUgky2,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-17T11:13:05.178+0000) > > She deals damage aswell but is she supposed to have VERY LOW cooldowns, more range and a 1 hit Q that you can spam all day? She shouldn't deal of what would be **a whole combo of an Assassin** with a SINGLE abbility aswell as have an E sleep that you can spam all day aswell. She doesn’t. Her CD’s are all longer than Zed’s except her Ult, which doesn’t do damage. Her 1-hit Q is where literally all her damage is, and it is extremely hard to hit. It also does crap for damage if it’s not powered up with range. Seriously, watch high-elo people actually play her and calculate the accuracy of their Zoe Q’s and skill shots from other champs, like Ahri, or Xerath. I guarantee you it is far lower. In order for her to do damage, she needs to E someone (Which is what is adding to her Q damage) and then Q them from full range. Often this means she needs to jump into range with her Portal or utilize a W she’s picked up. So she IS using just as much of a full combo as Zed is. Just because 2 of those 4 spell combos don’t do damage doesn’t mean they aren’t necessary. Also, yes, burst mages ARE actually supposed to, like Assassins, do massive damage really quickly, but Assassins have mobility, while mages have range. That’s the trade-off of the classifications. You should know this. Are you annoyed that {{champion:45}} can hit you with an AOE stun and then W>Q>R you and then you’re dead, guaranteed if you’re a squishy? Because that’s not really that different from what Zoe does to 1 shot you. > [{quoted}](name=BDTalon NadedBD,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xPsUgky2,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-17T11:13:05.178+0000) > > What tools do we have about Zoe? What counterplay does Zoe have when she makes a oneshot everytime her Q is up to a different opponent? > She has skillshots, but those "skillshots" that Zoe has, have a VERY LOW cooldown, making it spammable and not skilled to hit them at all. Well, there’s minions to block, backing off when you see her first cast, diving her, since she’s basically defenseless if you jump on her, oh, and that Zhonya’s you mentioned that counters Zed, counters her too. So it looks like she has WAY more counterplay than Zed. No, Her Q by itself does not 1-shot you. Even if you got hit by a full power Q, by itself, it doesn’t 1-shot you at any point in the game. It hurts, but then it’s on cooldown for, like I said before, longer than Zed’s Q. Her E, does hardly any damage at all until late game, and even then, you have a window to react and position yourself before falling asleep. I don’t know what to tell you about the skillshots other than, “Learn to dodge,” Because seriously, Zoe Q is the easiest skill shot in the game to dodge by far. TL:DR - Zoe needs nerfs, yes, but she has a TON of counterplay to her if people bother to learn how her skills work, and yes, it is fair to compare her to Zed and Yasuo, because both of them have things in their kit that are also super-frustrating to play against. Otherwise, she is a unique attempt at champion design that in a year, when she’s finally balanced, people will completely forget about because of how hard she is to play.
One35 (NA)
: Your Least Favorite Champion in the Game
{{champion:64}} I’m Kha’Zix with the exact same build and an Assassin type, but he bursts me in half the time starting from farther away and then has an escape with a quick ward drop. {{champion:53}} Either he’s on my team and spams bad skill shots and does nothing, or I’m against him, and he somehow threads his hook through a mess of 20 minions to barely catch me on the edge. {{champion:238}} The champion I should love playing but just can’t get a good handle on his abilities. Always feels awkward and far less effective than when I’m facing him.
nm1010 (NA)
: Oh you just don't know how the champ works, the e bonus damage is true damage and is literally shown in the death recap by itself. It doesn't just get thrown in with the q damage. To get a death recap to show 2700+ damage on q you would need 1400+ ap or to hit multiple q's.
Fair enough. It doesn't read that way in the Wiki, and that is a C&P from the wiki that I posted there. I haven't seen how it reads in game though, so that's kind of a confusing interface then.
nm1010 (NA)
: If you do the math on her e she 100% had ~600 ap, meaning at most her q was doing 1390 before any buffs or resistances. Unless the posted formulas are wrong, in which case I can't log in so I can't check.
So the Wiki reads her Max Q damage as 400 (+ 165% AP). Her E also reads _Sleeping targets take double damage from the next attack or ability to hit them, up to a cap of Sleepy Trouble Bubble's damage._ Where her E max damage is 220 (+ 40% AP), so we can basically add those two together. for 620 (+205% AP). She also has Runic Echoes for another 60 (+10%AP) for 680 (+215%AP). So even with just 600 AP, that would make Q deal 1970 before damage amplifiers like Press the Attack, et al. So yeah, as I was saying, it's doable, but it requires EVERYTHING to be stacked and land perfectly, which, if that happens, Zoe players SHOULD be rewarded as such. And still, it's much more likely that he was just hit by multiple Q's as opposed to the 1.
: I think the rune is fine, I like it on Rengar, it's prob one if my fav runes to take alongside transcendence. If u dont like it, dont take it. But I think its worth the slot in a lot of cases.
I'm not actually saying it's bad. I'm more commenting on the general surprise and disappointment I'm guessing a lot of people are feeling with it that's making them essentially ignore it as an option. So I'm wondering if it's being given the consideration in deserves by both Riot and the player base. It's also really hard to quantify Cooldown Reduction that goes beyond the cap in terms of value and how you receive that value. So in your case of Rengar? At Max Ranks and Full CDR and maxed Ultimate Hat, the Cooldown on your ultimate is ~36 Seconds. That definitely feels nice, but without Ultimate Hat, the CD is 42. So for this to really be worth it, you have to be decently frequently using your Ultimate in those 6 extra seconds. Do you think you do that? With Rengar's Ult, I can see this happening, but I'm not sure how many other champions you can really claim this with.
nm1010 (NA)
: Going off numbers on the wiki (I can't log in to check the ratio) she would've needed 1426 ap at max range to do that. So its either a bug on the ability or the death recap. Edit: Going off the E true damage (again wiki numbers) she only had around 600 ap, I assume you got hit by multiple q's to take that much damage. Probably 4 I would guess, maybe only 3 if they were all long ranged.
Well, no, let's be fair and see what we can stack up there with effects. Doing the math and trying to be the most generous with runes for Gathering Storm and full AP from Absolute Focus, and assuming the Mord was under the effect of Press the Attack and Coup De Grace with this attack, and someone nearby him had an Abyssal Mask Built, and he was put to sleep by Zoe's E, I can get a single shot of her Q up to 2,829 Damage before Resistances, which look to be about MR 4 after all her penetration in that build. So sure, I'll believe it's from a single shot that had multiple levels of set-up and assistance from Zoe's teammates that he was 1-shotted for that much damage.
Taeseuk (NA)
: Yeah see facing that is a terrifying thought, her ult can have devastating consequences. Granted it's a strategic play to take that instead of the more popular manner runes but I'd you're somebody that cab name use of that low and ult cool down it's totally worth it.
Thing is, with Karma especially, with all the innate cooldown effects she has for her ult, taking a rune that at most gives her an extra 2 seconds faster (Or 1 AA) in exchange for free spells or shields just doesn't seem worth it. And let's remember her ult is useless if she has no OTHER spells off cooldown.
: This is fine.
I mean, she does have basically 1 damaging ability with her Q, so this is clearly over multiple casts of it, not just one. It's no different from seeing that number from an ADC Basic Attack.
Rioter Comments
: My only issue with the Aery nerfs
Here's the irony I'm finding in all this. I checked through my recent games (mostly ARAM, so upfront that this isn't accurate to Summoner's Rift), compared my the damage from my games using the big 4 burst damage keystones of Electrocute, Dark Harvest, Summon Aery, and Comet. Most of these were pretty equivalent of around the 1800-3000 damage ranges. Some of my longer games made Dark Harvest (Which is broken in ARAM) get up to about 4500. But Summon Comet had a consistent average damage of less than half of all that. The simple fact that it's unreliable to hit is insane to me. That's the biggest issue with it. This is a generally accepted concept in the game that if something is a skill shot, then it needs better scaling/utility/lower cooldown, anything to make it more viable than a point-and-click, but the fact is it's graded on the same curve as the other three that are guaranteed affects (i.e. damage vs. Cooldown). It just feels like Riot isn't addressing its ability to miss in how effective this keystone is, so mages and AD Casters go to Aery for harass and poke, or Electrocute if they have decent burst.
: Little to none, I think they're focusing on getting damage tho so Adaptive/Abyssal means less. He's going for a bit of a 1 shot build with some escape HP. Basically Essence is just trading HP for more damage, with the POTENTIAL crit (Which is still sorta useless,) but you do get a Q off in a trade, which is one chance 2 crit, might be nice (sorta like 1% crit dairus, dairus doesn't use crit but hey, if ur lucky)
Or how about {{item:3812}} ? 400 Less HP, 28 More AD, Damage Delay effect and Lifesteal for your 1k damage one shots.
: Theres so much damage and NO resistances
I think the overwhelming damage is mostly compounded by the fact that seals and glyphs were almost universally used for defensive stats for champions, and we really haven't gotten a replacement for that defensive loss. Only a handful of champs got some base defenses, but no where near what was taken away. Once Riot realizes this, I'm guessing there will be a return for those early stats.
Alüe (NA)
: While my comment may be downvoted to help, this new rune system is awful and will only add to the plethora of issues of attempting to balance champions.
There's plenty of places on the boards to complain about them. I want this thread to be devoted to positives. There can be disagreement on specific points people make, but no straight bashing of the system. There's a myriad of places to do that already.
Rioter Comments
Womp123 (NA)
: Time for TSM to Shake up Their Roster
So having just finished watching all the TSM games at worlds, I want to reply to this with a breakdown assessment of each player on the team. TL;DR - Sven is problematic, Bjerg needs to branch out, Hauntzer needs to not be forced into stuff he’s uncomfortable with, and Doublelift and Biofrost got shafted by their team at Worlds, but still played amazingly. Sven should probably go, Hauntzer needs to prove he deserves to stay, Bjerg needs to get his head out of his ass, and people need to stop hating on Doublelift and see where he is actually really strong. —————— Hauntzer - In general, he had decent potential, but he definitely struggled at worlds this year, and I think this is partially from them prioritizing those late scaling champs for him. We get it, TSM, you like the late-game, Team fighting comps, and while these were meta for a long while this season, the other teams in Worlds intentionally shook those up. Hauntzer’s problem here is that he so often likes playing aggressively, and he’s good at it when he has a champion in lane that can do that, but how many times did they give him Cho’Gath? And how many times did the enemy teams punish them for that? When he was on Gnar, he was amazing, even when he was counterpicked into a Yasuo, he still performed exceptionally, but they kept going back to Cho, and he just seems especially clueless as to what to do on that champion with no mobility. (Did anyone else notice that team fight against Flash Wolves where TSM’s mid inhibitor turret is being seized for about 2 minutes and Hauntzer is busy taking Krug camp?) Svenskeren - This is where I’m sad, because I really liked Sven as a jungler during the season. He was pro-active, consistent and a wonderful play-maker. None of that was here during this Worlds season, and part of that was he seemed lost whenever enemies were invading him and counter-juggling him. He would play jarvan and get invaded by a Sej, and then walk away while the Sej ganked his bot lane. At the very least, when this happens, isn’t the first rule of the jungler to try and make a play somewhere else if you can’t help bot lane? But he wouldn’t even do that. He’d just go farm another camp and then back. This is Jarvan we’re talking about too. How do you play Jarvan as a jungler and make no attempt to gank or assist your team before level 5? On top of that, watch his positioning in some of those games. There were seriously times I wanted to scream at the screen, “Why are you walking that way? I’m a Silver pleb and I know better than that.” Cases I’m referring to here are he just sees the enemy jungler gank his bot lane (red side) and then he goes and tries to farm the Gromp. WHAT! THE! HELL!? The unfortunate thing is at the beginning of Group Stages, he did perform very well, with that methodical pathing and watching for openings, but once his opponents were savvy to his strategy there, they tried to mess with it, and it effectively screwed with his head space and caused him to flounder. I hate to say it, but you just can’t have a player like that in a competitive environment. Hauntzer either needs to look into working on his ability to adjust to the game, or TSM need to remove him. Bjergsen - Lots of mixed feelings here, so I’m going to say this right now that I’m a huge Bjergsen fan. But I will also say that much of the criticism of him is not entirely unwarranted. I think he did have a bad habit of going to comfort picks like Syndra and Ryze just because they were comfortable, but I think the big thing to remember about Bjerg is that what he does better than any other NA Mid laner is punish mistakes. Seriously watch some of his predictive Syndra stuns. It’s kind of amazing. But come Worlds with the best of the best, and suddenly those mistakes are going to be even fewer than there were in just NA pro-scene. Now, when it came to the team fights, he still shined, as that is both his and TSM’s strength in the long run: Team Fighting. Unfortunately, again, in the later games, his opponents became savvy to this and prioritized him to get him shut down, and this is where there’s some problems. While I don’t think Bjerg has bad positioning, I think he is relying a lot on some protection from his tanks (Hauntzer and Sven) who again, were not providing that role for their carries. I’m not sure how to feel on this, because on the one hand, he should be able to count on them, but on the other, he shouldn’t be doing things too risky, and there were definitely a couple team fights I saw where the enemies engaged when he was isolated, sometimes with just Doublelift and Biofrost, and their tanks are off away from their carries. Whose fault is this situation, if the carries are trying to get their poke on the enemies, but to do that, they have to move away from their tanks because their tanks are not in the proper spot to do their job of protecting (and I realize tanks have more of a job than that, but that’s a side point here). I think it was Misfits who had a Gaga’s engage on those three at the river bush, with Hauntzer nearby, but still about 700 units away from his carries, and Sven was busying killing the scuttle crab. That kind of situation is just unacceptable, and Bjerg and Double know better, but I can’t put all the blame on them for that. Doublelift and Biofrost - I’m going to lump these two together because a lot of what I have to say involves primarily the drafting for them and what they allow for their opponents, because here’s the big thing. TSM at Worlds this year almost NEVER made bans with these two in mind, and this is an ADC/Ardent Censor Meta over anything else. Why!? Why would you do that to your biggest lane of import? Doublelift and Biofrost are both really aggressive players, and while that can get them punished, it’s also really effective when it works, and they can make it work well, so they needed more support in the bans for this. Every time I saw them let Janna go through with bans, they prioritized Lulu over her, let the enemies get super safe Janna, and still tried to play super aggressive and lost. But they still didn’t really lose super hard, they just couldn’t do anything because THEY HAD NO SUPPORT! And this is support from say their jungler, or their roaming mid laner (Another notch against Bjerg, he does not roam well or often. He needs to fix that). And occasionally they tried to give them a passive, defensive lane with the intent to scale for late, but even then, they just got bullied hard. I honestly don’t know what the solution to this should be. Doublelift and Biofrost, I think, got pretty heavily handicapped by the shot-calling of bans, roams and TP’s from the rest of their team, and I honestly feel they made the best of what they were given. While people say Doublelift has that tendency to get caught out because he was too aggressive, or had bad positioning, he has corrected that IMMENSELY this season, and honestly at Worlds, I saw those problems coming out more from Hauntzer and Bjerg than I did from Doublelift. And then Biofrost. He likes making plays, so why do they keep giving him Lulu? She’s seriously one of the most passive supports I’ve seen. Even Janna has more potential to make some plays with her Ult. Lulu doesn’t have that. She has the polymorph, some harrass, and pretty much everything else is a “Please don’t die!” Button. Nami also a champion they gave to Biofrost who has similar issues. Why? I don’t care if Censer is strong, give him the damn Thresh or Alistar. Hell, I really wish he had tried learning the Taric. I think he would be phenomenal on that champion. Censer user, who’s also tanky and can set-up plays? It’s everything Bio should want. Ugh, this was just so frustrating to watch. So much was squandered for comfort when they got to worlds, and I think they got complacent after their first 2 wins. The big thing is TSM is bad at adapting and changing their strategies, and when you’re playing against the best of the best, it’s going to be easy for opponents to spot the weaknesses in your armor when you do the same things over and over again. This is ultimately what TSM needs to look at for Season 8, so I hope they do good at modifying their training to illuminate this.
: Sure Tristana is alright at this time, but what about last year? You know, the **only** rioter to address her in 2016 **AT ALL** was Scarizard (Still at Riot at the time) during a live Q&A, and he literally told me they had no idea what to do with her. She remained awful for over a year. it was the sudden buff of Crit Strike Items and the advent of Tank Meta that made her good. She wasn't improved (Buffed only once since 2015) and it was the game around her that made her feel better. But she was neglected, ignored and abandoned for months. Did anyone care? I did. Everyone hated her so bad last month without looking at the context of what made her rise in popularity. It truly has been, since 2012, the very worst community experience I've ever had with League of Legends. Trying to explain people how she got good, how she was ignored for so long, and all I was met with as salt posts throwing away anything I had to say, just as they did when she was bad and I was trying to get some love for her. I ask you to understand one thing please: This is not about win rates or _"This champion is playable"_ but rather the apparent lack of idea of what Riot does with a champion I care so much about. I'm sorry Hecarim is in a bad spot, but I don't understand why you bring up the 120/138 ratio thing and say Tristana is _"good"_ as if that meant I have no right to say anything, because that's exactly the kind of thing I've been dealing with for over a year, and mostly (as I said before) last month. I don't know if you're as dedicated to Hecarim as I am to Trist, but say Riot mega buffs Trinity Force tomorrow and suddenly Hecarim becomes First Pick Popular even though he's around 50% win rate, and all you see is a bunch of hate calling for a nerf, after all these months of neglect and a sudden rise in popularity due to an external buff. Step into my shoes if you truly are trying to understand me. Because I've been where you are. Trist was the 15th worst ADC at one point, and of course nobody cared. **I do get you**, but I wonder if you truly understand me.
The same can kind of be said about Caitlyn from her rework in Season 5. She was under-performing and actually had to be buffed in the first few months. I loved the rework and playing her, but she was mostly untouched for over a year. Then this season starts up and suddenly people are playing her, especially in high ELO and pro play, and suddenly everyone is screaming how oppressive and OP she is. Now she's nerfed into oblivion for several months before worlds (and then being reverted to for after worlds it looks like). My point though is, like your Tristana, just because a champ was bad earlier, and external changes that wound up being buffs to the champion are primarily what shifted them to prime META picks, isn't really an argument for addressing them as over-performing now. Riot doesn't, and rightly shouldn't, be looking at how a champion who hasn't been touched by the balance team in years was performing years ago. The point is to adjust things for right now. Constant tangential changes to the game are going to be shifting power spikes to all champions. That's how it works, and it doesn't mean Riot doesn't know what to do with the champion necessarily, but the fact that despite being top tier now, she isn't being changed much, shows some serious restraint on Riot's part. Tristana has a very bare-bones, kind of old-fashioned kit. She has a jump, an AS boost (for free mind you), and two point-and-click targetted spells with fairly simple effects, so she really is going to be more affected by external META Shifts than other champions because of this. Riot knows this, so that's why I feel they're also not going after her super hard with nerfs like so many people want, because they know once other changes come through, she could easily fall off again. I can understand your frustration with a beloved champion being seemingly ignored, but trust me, the other direction is almost worse. My main champs in the past have been Kha'Zix (reworked about 3-4 times) LeBlanc (Let's all laugh at that state) and Azir (Basically useless because I'm not Master Tier...Or even Gold Tier). THAT is more showing that riot doesn't know what they want from a champ. Not leaving a champ mostly untouched because they know Meta shifts will grace her eventually.
: Let’s Discuss: Marksmen
So I think part of the problem with Marksmen is that they’re being balanced around the crit stat, and there’s fundamental problems from just design stand points with the Crit Stat. So here’s my long, detailed, likely unpopular rework of that. So first off, to rework the Crit stat, we need to look at Champions last, since there’s so many of them, we need the foundation first. Instead, I’ll look at the mechanics of it, and itemization. I’ll format this easily with a change followed by the rationale behind it Change: Get rid of I.E. Rationale: It gives a massive early power spike that isn’t really matched by any other item for any other role in the game, and is pushing marksmen that don’t have this as a first or second item out of viability. (Poor Ezreal) Change: Add 2-3 more AD/Crit items with additional utility, and make all the Zeal Items only give 20% crit. Rationale: This maintains the item choices for marksmen but also forces them into 5 items to get 100% crit, which is what they should be if that’s what they’re designed around. If they’re forgoing a crit item for more utility, they should feel a hit for the survivability/tank busting they wanted, but right now that hit isn’t coming across, it’s just expected that Marksman crit almost every shot and still have extra stuff on top of their 800 damage AA’s which isn't fair. (E.G. Mages can choose to go for items that don't have AP, or have little AP, but you feel the reduction in damage, both playing them and playing against them.) Change: But wait. I also want to add an innate 10% crit chance to all champs. Rationale: This would give a slight boost to laning phase to all champs, but Marksman would feel it the most and make their early game less deplorable, especially when many have AS steroids in their kit. Change: Add a slot in the new Rune Page for a Crit Effect. Rationale: And here’s where the removal of I.E. and 10% crit on everyone really comes in. With the way Riot is changing up Rune Pages, this is the perfect time to implement this type of change. Before game, you can add a special effect to go off any time your AA’s crit. This could create a plethora of customization for Marksman that keeps them relevant throughout game, despite the loss of damage from removing I.E. Heck, one of the Runes could even be the I.E. passive, such as, “Critical Strikes deal additional 15%-40% additional damage (based on level).” And with this being a Crit Attack only Rune spot, this is why all champions need that innate 10% crit chance in their kit. I even think this could encourage other champions to fit into the ADC role, even if they’re not traditional marksman (Azir, Orianna, Kayle, etc.) Change: Buff innate resistances to Marksman. Rationale: Big one here, I’m sure. Right now, the idea is that there are 3 types of squishy champs: Assassins, Burst/Battle Mages, and marksman. The idea is supposed to be that they each have their own strengths to a team, such as Mid-Late game AOE damage from Mages, late game Sustained Damage from Marksman, and early-mid game burst and mobility to priority targets from assassins. The big complaint being that marksman are essentially doing ALL of these things, but before this meta, they weren’t even really doing the Sustained Damage because they would die too quickly. I think Riot really just pushed the pendulum too far in the direction favoring Marksman with the increase in time for Assassins to kill things, the extra itemization for survivability to Marksman, and the increase in their burst from early itemization. With the changes I’ve added, their early damage should be taking a hit, and if they do buy anti-assassin items, it will hurt them from their late game monster damage. So boosting their innate tankiness (even just a little early) should help create that nice middle ground, where they can still be blown up by squishy assassins, but their response to assassins is no longer, “shoot it so he dies first,” which is a problem. Instead, they may need to buy items against the assassins, which further pushes back their late game damage, but also keeps them from just dying because supports have enough innate damage in their abilities to chunk them down too, which I think is happening pretty often as well. So yeah, that’s my breakdown. Like I said, these are radical changes, and I’m sure people have very good counter arguments for these changes that I’d love to hear. TL:DR - Marksman do the same job as Mages and Assassins because of how the Crit Stat works, so let’s rework that. Give everyone innate Crit, give everyone a Crit Effect Rune, and reduce crit on items and Extra Crit Damage on items. Add more Crit items to the game, and balance champion classes around these.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ygwn0dWE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-09-15T19:27:44.940+0000) > > 1.) So you are arguing a scenaio where he always has ulti up and ready? What about the remaining 2 minutes while it&#x27;s down? I also pointed out that _he has more than enough range to simply walk back to turret before anyone can close on him_. > 2.) Uhm. Corki has always been a midlaner? I am just playing since before season 1 and the original release - and he has never been a competitive midlaner. He was playable in low elo midlane matches from time to time, but he just started being a viable midlaner with his rework and how broken AD itemization currently is when compared to AP items. He's also pretty much never been viable bot, from my understanding. You could just as easily say "He just started being viable with his rework and with the items he uses being good". He also primarily uses on-hit effects: Tri-force being the core item of his build, with Shiv working its way into it as well. He's also one of the...oddest marksmen that exists. He needs _magic penetration_, because he does 90:10 AP:AD. And AD itemization isn't broken. It primarily just got an average of 500 gold per game shaved off of it (through Zeal and IE price reduction), and maybe an extra 10-20 AD, while also losing %pen on Last Whisper's upgrades. > 3.) A lot of mages did not get a single scaling change - and if you consider taking 50 AP of an item &quot;A bit&quot; I feel we have a very different definition of that term. Especially if those nerfs were made to several items which add up - particularly in lategame scenarios where according to Riots scaling justifications APCs should have good DPS. Most mages did, and _no_ item lost 50 AP. Unless you're thinking of Abyssal mask, which lost _more_ AP than that, and became a _tank_ item. Maybe a loss of 100 or so AP overall? That's honestly not that much. > 4.) I frequently see Twitch jungle - and I also see it being played on Master rank streams. <insert X-Doubt meme here>. He has _the_ most predictable jungling path there is. I sincerely doubt that it'd be played in Masters, except for shits and giggles, or as a counter pick. > 5.) Ezreal has a 62,87% winrate in jungle at Challenger according to OP.GG. Which is nowhere near the 47% you claim. There&#x27;s power gaps for skill heavy champions. Just as with Twitch above: Just because you doesn&#x27;t face it doesn&#x27;t mean that it&#x27;s balanced. Ezreal jg sucks ass against anyone that knows how to play safe. Your numbers are evidently bullshit. > 6.) &quot;Marksman have more counterplay than DPS mages&quot; So a 800 range, instant damage Twitch right click has more counterplay than a Cassiopeia which has to hit you with a 0,4s delayed skillshot and follow up with a lower ranged E? While each of these consumes mana. 800 range for 5 seconds. You can _literately_ just walk away from him, then fight 5 seconds later. Have you tried doing that? You can also just use a good gap-closer and blow him up. He has no CC to stop you. And Cass pretty much never runs OOM. She fucking buys RoA and tear. Unless you're throwing all of your abilities non-stop, it's virtually impossible to run out of mana with those two items. She's also harder to blow up, for the reason that she has RoA and has CC. > 7.) &quot;Marksman have no CC&quot;. Ashe R, Vayne E, Varus R, Xayah E, Tristana R, Draven E, Kalista R. That&#x27;s just counting hard CC and ignoring stuff like Ashe&#x27;s perma slow.... Meanwhile we have a low range knockback on Azir and an extremely conditional, bugged, unreliable and also avoidable stun on Cass. #***I SPECIFICALLY SAID THE TOP THREE META CHAMPIONS HAD LOW CC*** Do ***not*** try to put words in my mouth. With the _exception_ of Ashe, who is half support, anyways, most marksmen have ***LITTLE*** cc. ***SOME*** have none, moreso than most other classes (barring assassins, who generally have no CC). Cass's stun is _not_ unreliable. She can just panic-use it and stun an assassin, who is _often dashing towards her_. Azir can R or WEQ away, and has enough range with his soldiers to pretty much never be in danger.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ygwn0dWE,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-09-15T19:45:57.691+0000) > > He&#x27;s also pretty much never been viable bot, from my understanding. You could just as easily say &quot;He just started being viable with his rework and with the items he uses being good&quot;. > > He also primarily uses on-hit effects: Tri-force being the core item of his build, with Shiv working its way into it as well. He&#x27;s also one of the...oddest marksmen that exists. He needs _magic penetration_, because he does 90:10 AP:AD. > > And AD itemization isn&#x27;t broken. It primarily just got an average of 500 gold per game shaved off of it (through Zeal and IE price reduction), and maybe an extra 10-20 AD, while also losing %pen on Last Whisper&#x27;s upgrades. Seasons 2-5,[CORKI] was essentially the top tier bot lane ADC. It's only been the past two seasons with his shift to almost entirely magic damage where he started being seen Mid. Even counting that, there's nothing that really says he's not viable bot lane, since he still builds essentially ADC items. He's just much safer than most other ADC's and a lane bully, which is why he can often take a solo lane. > Most mages did, and _no_ item lost 50 AP. Unless you&#x27;re thinking of Abyssal mask, which lost _more_ AP than that, and became a _tank_ item. > > Maybe a loss of 100 or so AP overall? That&#x27;s honestly not that much. I see you're coming to League from just under 2 years ago, so you're probably not aware of the AP itemization from Pre-Season 6. We used to have 3 items with 120 AP (1 of which was Zhonya's), and a few others at 80-100. That number is down to 1 at 120, 2 at 100, and the rest at or below 80. That's more than just 100 AP overall, and when people complain about the AP nerfs, this is usually what they're talking about. > &lt;insert X-Doubt meme here&gt;. He has _the_ most predictable jungling path there is. I sincerely doubt that it&#x27;d be played in Masters, except for shits and giggles, or as a counter pick. > > Ezreal jg sucks ass against anyone that knows how to play safe. Your numbers are evidently bullshit. This is where you're just kind of ignoring fact. Diamond+ do frequently play Twitch jungle as of recent changes with his poison cask hanging around and adding more stacks to targets. His jungle pathing to a skilled jungler is not that predictable, and even if it was, his maneuverability with his camo for positioning in ganks is incredibly difficult to deal with, even for say a top laner, barely outside of his turret. > 800 range for 5 seconds. You can _literately_ just walk away from him, then fight 5 seconds later. Have you tried doing that? > > You can also just use a good gap-closer and blow him up. He has no CC to stop you. Except you're now assuming he's fighting alone, and good Twitch players don't do that unless they're super fed and/or get the jump on champions (you know, like an assassin, which he kind of is.) Also, high level players know how to do the Attack-Move skill for kiting as a marksmen, and if that's the case, you can't just move away from him. Maybe you can jump on him and blow him up if you're an assassin, but again, he probably got the jump on you. And usually you're dead from him in 2-3 seconds. > And Cass pretty much never runs OOM. She fucking buys RoA and tear. Unless you&#x27;re throwing all of your abilities non-stop, it&#x27;s virtually impossible to run out of mana with those two items. > > She&#x27;s also harder to blow up, for the reason that she has RoA and has CC. Okay, but why is it an argument that you can walk away from the 800 range Twitch who is crit-ing you for free, essentially at 2 items, but Cass, with a RoA and Archangel Staff, you can't just walk away? She has no hard CC for you if you're walking away. And even if she has RoA, that's only an additional 500 health fully stacked. In contrast to the said Twitch being blown up, considering equal level and gold between the two of these (I'm using Lvl 13 with 2+boots items, so an extra {{item:1058}} for Cass), Twitch usually goes{{item:3153}} {{item:3085}} so he's already coming at you with around 170 AD and 1.8 AS with 14% LS and on-hit effects. Sure, Cass can dish out insane damage with that, but it's all conditional, and requires set up which is visually obvious to the opponents. Twitch's set up is almost completely invisible to the opponent, so his set up is essentially null and void for balance issues. So by the time Cass can start dishing out her 350 damage E's, Twitch has shot her 3-5 times for around 600-1000 damage depending on crits, AND he's still LS a lot of this damage. And this is all being very generous to Cass. > #***I SPECIFICALLY SAID THE TOP THREE META CHAMPIONS HAD LOW CC*** > > Do ***not*** try to put words in my mouth. With the _exception_ of Ashe, who is half support, anyways, most marksmen have ***LITTLE*** cc. ***SOME*** have none, moreso than most other classes (barring assassins, who generally have no CC). So of those "top 3" you mentioned, Draven and Trist both have as much CC as Cass or Azir(I.E. on their ultimates, and that's it), the primary offending DPS mages. But then again, those aren't the only High tier ADC's. Kalista is top tier for those that can play her. Xayah is pretty high up there now, and she has a basic ability CC and an Untargetable ult effect. Kog and Twitch are really the only two top tier ADC's right now that don't really have CC like you claim. > Cass&#x27;s stun is _not_ unreliable. She can just panic-use it and stun an assassin, who is _often dashing towards her_. Azir can R or WEQ away, and has enough range with his soldiers to pretty much never be in danger. And again, higher level play (which riot admits is what they balance for) can recognize the wind up for her ult, and yes, it IS actually easy for them to avoid it, because they expect those panic ults, look away for half-a-second, and then turn back to attack and still blow her up.
: The Azir Rework: A Opinion
I actually find these changes kind of interesting. They had already been moving Azir away from hard scaling, and more into base damages, but now with his AS buff for having 3 soldiers out, lower cooldowns across the board, in exchange for reduced range and reduced AP scaling on his soldiers, the build I'd been wanting to test on him might be fairly viable now: the AP bruiser build. So if he's going to need to be more up-close and personal (His E champ collision spawning a soldier even exemplifies this), he could easily get away with building say a Liandry's+1 more AP item/Abyssal Mask, and then building tank stats. Of course, even the glass cannon build should still work on him. I understand Riot's feelings here as Azir's basically been strong at all points of the game while still being a late-game-hypercarry. It feels like they wanted to preserve his Late-Game-ness, which I feel they've done with the AS buff and repositioning Cooldown, but still keep him capable of being at least a threat with his Shurima Shuffle at early levels. Honestly, I think these changes will be great for him in the long run, but I think he still suffers like most AP champs that are pure damage do during this time frame of lack of decent items since he's always been pretty restricted in his item choices to be viable (so Nashor's, Rylai's, Void Staff, and then two others, one of which likely needs to be Deathcap as last item). Maybe this will open more items up for him.
: You're not sustaining 300+ off of every auto except as a Nasus or Olaf, or as a Veigar with Nashor's Tooth and Gunblade. It's just not happening. As the most lifesteal you're reliably getting in a single match on a possibly viable build for a marksman is 35% (Death's Dance+Bloodthirster), that means you sustain roughly 1/3 of the damage you take. For 300 per hit, you'd need around 900 effective AD. That means either actual 900 AD (literately and completely impossible, except in the most obscenely rare of situations that _has to be set up by all 10 members in a match_), 450 AD with 100% crit chance and no IE (Theoretically possible numbers, but not actually going to exist, because you can't reach that AD total, except _maybe_ on Jhin with 3 infernal drakes. No boots if you do this, by the way), or 360 effective AD, 100% crit chance, and IE (again, no boots. 220 AD from items, so...as long as you can pull 140 AD out of your runes, masteries, stats, and infernal drakes/baron, you can do it...technically). Basically, that would be a problem. Because it _cannot actually happen with any remotely viable build_. Of course, I'm discounting exceptionally high _situational_ AD and sustain, so it might exist for a few seconds at a time, but not much more than that.
Your math is quite a bit off there on account of you seem to be forgetting a champion's base AD, which for most marksmen comes in just shy of 100, so there's plenty of AD right there. So let's try adding even just 90 AD together again with a semi-conventional (using your 35% LS) full build of {{item:3812}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3047}} . This gets the generic marksman champion a total of 320 AD. Now a crit with this would deal 800 damage to a 0 armor target (which minions are), and would therefore heal for 280 health. So not quite 300 health, but not far from there. And even on that 1 in 5 AA's that won't crit and still do 320 damage, that's still another 112 health back, so in 5 AA's, a champion has healed for 1232 health. And hell, let's give this generic champ fairly low Base AS and growth of .63 and 2.5%/level, That's 1.33 AS. So that healing is coming out in less than 4 seconds. Now let's also add in the many OTHER things that are granting this ADC Sustain, like 2% Vampirism Mastery, another 5 AD from Runes (They have bad runes). The likely Keystone for this being Warlord's, they took Double-Edged Sword for 3% increase in damage to factor in, and Runic Armor increases all healing by 8%. And they probably have a passive buff to AS from one of their abilities, because almost all ADC's have that, so let's give them just a modest 40% boost there. And hey, in those 5 attacks, they only got 2 Warlord's off, and 1 was on the unlucky non-critical. Now the math adds up to 837 damage on crit, which heals for 334 health, and Warlord's hit for another 325 health. And over the 5 AA's, that only takes 3 seconds, this winds up totaling 1963 health healed. So a fully healed ADC in 3 seconds off minions, and keep in mind this doesn't address the extra healing {{item:3812}} could give them if they cast any Physical Spells in this time. That was using pretty much low-end base stats for an ADC. Now try applying these to one of these big name threats like {{champion:18}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:29}} or even just minor threats like {{champion:22}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:202}}. Hell, take away the BT from the build, because they're more likely to build a {{item:3035}} item. Many of them will have faster AS to compensate, and even on Draven alone (who is considered to have fallen off by this point in a game), 1 crit with all of that calculates to a total of 1484 damage, and 531 Health healed. So yeah, the Draven may have gotten jumped in a 3v1 that took him down to 25% health, but 2 AA's and one of that 3 is now dead, he's probably close to 50% again already, and any decent player caught one of the axes, so he's still a massive threat if they don't either burst or lock him down. And the burst is being mitigated by the DD passive, so you'd better just stop him from AA'ing for at least 3 seconds.
: @Meddler, Ez is the only champ really who uses Muramana, are there any plans for the item?
I think a core issue with it is that it's clearly designed for the AD spellcaster, and typically those come in 2 design directions. 1) The snowball bursty assassin/fighter types who want damage quick and directly, which Muramana doesn't assist much with, or 2) The AOE ranged caster, who would only benefit from its passive on AA effects, and so would need more raw damage from the item itself, but Muramana essentially caps at around 65 AD (for most champs considering 1000 base mana at 18) with no other utility to it. In contrast, Duskblade may give 10 less AD, but it also gives CDR, Lethality, and a passive that does damage faster, as opposed to the sustained damage of Muramana. Basically, it's got a bit of an identity crisis where its intended goal for given champions can be achieved with other items that may be more expensive, but give better stats, and fewer conditions. Also to contrast it with its AP counterpart {{item:3040}} , at least this item you can objectively say gives the most potential AP of any other item counting just itself.
: Another Kindred rework idea
Hmm, I like the direction you took with this, and how the R is basically a permanent controllable minion type thing. My question on that is would R rank up accordingly and what would that do? Or would Kindred need to be made like another Jayce where their 3 base abilities all had 6 levels to them? Also, I've always wondered why their W wasn't a targeted field around an enemy that broke if they got too far from Kindred. Right now, the primary counter play to the field seems to be to rush at Kindred and force them out of the field, because guess what? A squishy ADC wants to skirmish, but not get in melee range. Do you think it would be too powerful if the field followed the target enemy, and Kindred just had to keep in range of them? So the enemy has to make a choice of try to fight Kindred in this field and take Wolf harass, or run off, break the field and then re-engage if they do want to fight?
: Not saying your wrong, but I disagree. The meta determines a lot of things, but it shouldn't determine game design. Manamune still has its uses on a lot of champs ( me personally ) who want it build lategame damage and not sacrifice too much gold early. it also works well on a lot of other adc's but many people are too afraid to try new things. I personally build manamune on mf, and while people say its crazy to do so, the damage output is insane. I don't think manamune is outadated or overbuffed, its just unique. And I think uniqueness is slowly dying with certain meta strats.
I don't really think the late-game damage is as big as you think though. Completed by itself, it offers 1000 Mana and 45 AD (+2% of whatever your Base mana is at a given level). For AD champions, at level 18, that can get around to about 65 total AD, sure, with no other Mana items, which makes it fairly gold efficient, sure, but there's still better options out there that DON'T make you wait until level 18 to get those kinds of stats. On top of that, you're talking about a passive on Transformation to Muramana that usually takes until at least Minute 15-20 at the earliest? Even saying you have another Pickaxe to get at the same fold value of your opponent who built I.E., that's likely only about 80 AD you have and 1500 mana. That's only a 10AD advantage, really. So now, every AA or single-Target spell can deal an extra Average 60 damage? Nice, but that won't continue to scale much past that, as opposed to the Crit builders who WILL continue to scale with more Crit, and more AD. MF I can see things working with her abilities a bit, because she does have the Lethality build direction, but I don't think it adds enough. Also, if this WAS so effective, then Trinity Force would probably add more for her if her Base AD scaling wasn't one of the worst in the game (for good reason mind you, considering her kit). I'd honestly prefer to throw another 500-700 gold into building Ghostblade or Duskblade over manamune instead. -------- But really, fixing the item is what we should be thinking about, and the transformed passive should be what makes this worth buying, and that's where I feel the item is kind of confused. Mana is a stat based on wanting to do sustained damage, but the passive doing damage based on CURRENT Mana is kind of contradictory to that, as the longer you sustain damage, the less damage you do. I think consuming 3% of max mana to deal bonus damage is great for it, but we need to figure out how that damage should be calculated. Right now, its identity is a little confused for that. Or hell, let the bonus damage on here crit, and make a build with E.R. Would actually be kind of interesting. Turn Muramana into a replacement for I.E.
Arakadia (NA)
: Depending on how much you like to update your champions and for future posts: the Institute of War and League of Legends do not exist anymore. They were removed from the lore. Now summoners do exist still but they are not bound to a specific faction like before. They are just people who conjure power or creatures, to my understanding. Any champion in League who's lore is dependent on or includes the Institute or League is not cannon or that part of the lore is not cannon. However I do have some suggestions about Rajen's lore beyond that. The first thing is in his lore the most we learn about is Rajen is that he is a battle-eager Braum with a thicker accent. We don't get to learn about his past, who he is, or anything related to what he wants in the world. See in Vayne's lore we get to learn about how Vayne's story in the world will pan out because she has the three most important things for a drive in a story. The first is that we know what she wants. She wants to slay and rid the world of evil. We know why she wants it. Because some vile demon, Evelynn, killed her parents. And we know how she's going to get it. By training the in the Freljord then tracking them down and hunting them personally. This gives Vayne's story a clear path and direction. Rajen doesn't have this and we don't know why he exists in the world or what he wants. His story is just _static_, not moving. --------------------------------- Anyways I hope I helped. I'm not a crazy lore expert but I do have some significant experience writing it.
> [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=uj6Isar0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-08-21T17:06:14.627+0000) > > Depending on how much you like to update your champions and for future posts: the Institute of War and League of Legends do not exist anymore. They were removed from the lore. Huh, I was not aware of that, no. Interesting. I may have to adjust that a bit. > [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=uj6Isar0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-08-21T17:06:14.627+0000) > The first thing is in his lore the most we learn about is Rajen is that he is a battle-eager Braum with a thicker accent. We don&#x27;t get to learn about his past, who he is, or anything related to what he wants in the world. > That was definitely deliberate to a certain degree, although I don't mean to make him sound battle-eager. More like the kind of person who gets put in a situation, shrugs and then makes the most of what is going on because he wants to help people. I do agree with you that he does need more personal motivation (I had another write up on him with more personal motivations, but it got lost on my tablet a while back.). But part of his personality is that he doesn't want to explain much personal stuff, like where he comes from even. He's a small village baker that lives relatively serenely somewhere in an area that few people want. Like a surprisingly untouched and isolated community, and he wants to keep it that way. Which is definitely more personality than I gave him in my above write-up, for sure. I'm going to toy with writing something up about how he made a deal to continue fighting so that no one goes looking for his hamlet, or something like that.
BETA253 (NA)
: his e seems broken though, 600 UNITS??. also ult is underpowered. this is a great idea, overall.{{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
Eh, that's an AA range, and it has a pretty obvious wind-up. Also made the costs and CD really high on it, because I knew it could be abused. Any suggestions on the Ult? Like where I could add some power?
: I Almost made a stupid comment thanks to typos. i think this might have some potential, but i need to say, the lore seems too much of an forced comic relief. No offense, it is not bad, but there were some spots where i asked myself "am i supposted to laugh?" As for his kit. seems decent aswell. not too balanced, but not broken either. feels fair
Absolutely fair. It was honestly a little hard not to make him at least a bit of a joke champion in feel. I mean, I had to come up with spells that, from an individual stand point, suggest this person doesn't really have any skills, but could still be effective together.
Rioter Comments
: It would be nice if mages and other Non-ADC roles also got some items like {{item:3087}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3085}} which all provide the same kind of stats and gives options And if stacking them is a problem you can just give them all a unique named passive so that they won't stack very well
Except they kind of DID do that for AP champions in the form of the three Hextech items. {{item:3146}} {{item:3152}} {{item:3030}} Their idea was to give more utility to mages with these items by giving them relatively similar stats, and utility in their passive like the 4 Zeal items. But then we all looked at them and correctly identified the numerous problems with this execution. 1) They're all different costs, which means you really DON'T get the variety they wanted, because you can't just buy Hextech and go, "Well which of these effects do I need most this game now." 2) Their AP's are....close, but still not even, and they all have wildly different other stats, often times in ways that aren't really useful to AP characters. 3) Every single active on here is a short range ability, and when one of the defining characteristics of AP diversity is range, that excludes a lot of champions right there from ever buying these. 4) Some champions have found success building them, but that's not diversity in choice. That's finding a niche. For the Zeal items, sure, your champion of the day may benefit primarily from building say Hurricane and PD, but they have the option to easily choose Shiv or RFC should they have an opponent that warrants them needing the passive on those more. And my point 4 here is where I think a lot of our problems with AP item choices are. Sure, we have some choices in items with utility on them, or going straight damage, but we do NOT have the in-game flexibility with our builds the same way ADC's and other AD champions have. You buy a BF sword as an AD champ (assassin, marksmen, fighter, doesn't matter) you can go to Bloodthirster, I.E., E.R, or G.A., and pretty much any AD user will be able to use one of those. However, buy a Needlessly Large Rod, and your choices are {{item:3089}} (Pretty much agreed to be cost inefficient until late game) {{item:3003}} (and if you didn't buy Tear first, which would have meant a lack of early game damage which any high player has typically told me is a no-no, you're not getting this item) and {{item:3285}} (which is usable on most champs, sure, but a lot don't like it right now for good reason, and still means this is your only choice to build if you got Rod early for damage and want to snowball your lead. So you're forced into a sub-optimal build) So the APC item which has a direct corrilary of an ADC item is VASTLY more limited in what it can actually do for the champion and options for it.
: you're looking at it wrong. Range is what dominates match ups, not because they are marksmen or ADC. if you have gnar, kennen, or teemo top, these are not AD carries specifically. They are unique champions who excel at bullying bruisers who are primarily played in that lane. Their differences are many, but the similarity remains the same, they all have range as their strength. You can say wow, ADC's can dominate in every position, but it's only for lack of innovation that melee carries are not played on bot lane (for example Yasuo, Master Yi, etc.). Yasuo has been played in bot lane as high as challenger level but it remains unreliable. It's a feast or famine principle, either it pops off or it feeds the enemy team, so pro teams go with the more reliable options.
Actually, I think you just missed my point. I wasn't claiming that every member of the Marksman class has the flexibility to go anywhere. {{champion:268}} for example, has been marketed always as a Mage/Marksman, and while people occasionally try him in bot lane, often times he's not suited for that, so he stays mid and occasionally top. No one here doubts that each champion has their specialties and unique properties that will let them thrive in other locations, despite what is typically associated with for their class. Hell, Lulu and Zilean both used to be strong meta mid laners, and while that's no longer as strong of a pick, people still pick them, a support champion, to be an APC for the team and succeed, much like your Yasuo and Yi analogy. None of that is inherently bad. I actually really like the fact that the game has, if you look at every other position (Top/Mid/Jungle/Support) you can typically name several of the primary 6 classes (Tank/Fighter/Assassin/Mage/Marksman/Support) that had meta picks strong in that roll. Except for bot position. Just Bot's Marksmen, and pretty much only marksmen, have been actively ALLOWED to thrive there. I can count on 1 hand the total number of champions (Specific champions, not just other classes) that were found to have success in the bot lane, and every instance of that was incredibly short lived as Riot nerfed the said offender specifically for their bot presence. Maybe the current Morde state with his success will prove to be a new thing they actually allow to survive, but I'm still feeling that's pretty new, and again, it's still ONE champion outside of the Marksman class allowed down there right now. And while those all may have been very good decisions to prevent toxic balance, it's mostly showing a fundamental flaw in the game direction that there is this disconnect of matching diversity and options for this one place on the map.
: He's 200% a viable pick right now. The bot lane Morde mains have over 60% win rates.
Hmm, interesting. Let's check that. Seems he has a 58% win rate with Plat+ statistics, but does jump to 60% in Diamond+. Goes down in lower ELO, but let's focus on Plat+ since that's what Riot balances around. So he has a popularity of 1.7% of all games played in that ELO tier, and still only 6.1% of those games is he played as ADC. So that translates to 0.1% of games in that ELO are games with Mordekaiser ADC that make that 58% winrate. Forgive me if I'm a little underwhelmed by those statistics, especially since this is only true for this last patch. He has been steadily climbing in that winrate for about the last 3 patches it seems, so if it continues and Riot does nothing, then you have an argument.
Eedat (NA)
: > Name me one other role where a single class dominates the meta of the position on the map. Well I did. All the top tier mids are mages + {{champion:91}}
To clarify my comment, I'm asking in regards to the history of the meta. Sure, mages are top tier now, and are most commonly top tier in mid lane, but there have been plenty of times AD assassins and bruisers like Yasuo, Talon, GP were top tier mid laners as well for an extended period of time. And even now, mages are top tier, but Yasuo and GP can still compete against them. In contrast to bot lane, where once the Support/ADC combo was discovered, that's pretty much all that ran down there. They tried to put Morde in there for carry, but that failed and they nerfed him. People tried Mages down there, but they nerfed those. None of those "Competing Meta's" lasted longer than a few months at most and quickly reverted. Diversity isn't "The Top Tier needs to have multiple classes." Diversity is "Being able to play multiple classes in a role without completely faceplanting if you aren't leagues above the opponent in skill."
: {{champion:82}} did someone say juggernaut carry bot? :O
That was so oppressive they nerfed him into the ground, and while some people can find success in him, he didn't last as a viable pick longer than a few months.
Áery (NA)
: Which is why I said that AP itemization lacks options, but people are thinking that AP is so weak to the point where their champions aren't viable or not bursting enough which isn't the case, AP can still single handily burst a squishy especially ones with large amounts of CC like Orianna, Lissandra, Ekko etc. The issue with Marksman is that they're getting excessive amount of survivability with stuff like Warlords, Ardent, etc making them more tough to burst and a lot of people are confusing this with their own champions being weak. Also with situational items giving more power like Maw. If AP had more choices they would be played more in bot lane, Ziggs worked fine as a siege champion whilst upholding decent damage, other stuff like on hit Twisted Fate has been played around with and still works well, even Cassio can be played well in bot lane due to her early ways of being able to bully people out of lane and her W works well against mobile ADCs. Juggernauts have been viable for awhile in bottom lane but no one does it often because who knows? Most people just follow a "meta" code but juggernauts also need enablers like Blitz, Leona more play making oriented supports to work.
Not really disagreeing with you there. Even as most commonly a mage player myself, I don't think Mages are under-performing. Hell, I don't even feel like tanks and bruisers are really underperforming that much. People say this is a tank meta, but it's not an oppressive tank meta. Heck, to go to the danger of mentioning the LCS, they're picking a lot of tanks, but I've seen plenty of LCS games where a team won with the only tank being their Braum support because they went Fiora top and Elise jungle.
jfhffe (NA)
: We Need a Minion Champion
Hmm, I've been tinkering with a character concept for a bit that has an affect that plays off minions. I may need to write it up now.
Áery (NA)
: No idea why all these mid lane mains complain yet champions like Ekko, Fizz, Orianna, Syndra, Annie, Cho'Gath etc are still up there in terms of power. The only thing I would agree with though is that there is a lack of options in their items compared to AD. You also get Marksman being pushed out of bot lane and people complain, how do you think top laners felt when mages were being played in top?
Yeah, no. We had a brief window where Ziggs was played bot, and a couple other mages were tried, but that barely lasted, and now Ziggs is the only one who occasionally goes there. Otherwise it's almost always be ADC's. Name me one other role where a single class dominates the meta of the position on the map. I think that's the issue in general. Fine, we can have Marksmen be viable in mid lane, top lane, jungle, whatever. I'm okay with that, as long as it goes in reverse and we can see like a juggernaut carry bot, or more mages bot, that aren't there as supports, but that doesn't happen. ADC's have an entire role to themselves, AND they get to flex into other places on the map, and part of that is because of the insance diversity in their item options compared to APC's.
: > [{quoted}](name=Drynin,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=rxPZngxh,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-14T17:34:03.939+0000) > > Ah HA! I understand now! Thank you. > > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} i changed ult a bit what do you think?
Definitely more fluid in how it works. Probably needs some more number tweaks, but that's to be expected. Functionally makes sense with how it works. One minor thing, the cooldown might need to be a recharge time, and you can get multiple birds in your Ult and then cast them in sequence, otherwise you would likely lose the first bird before you can even cast a second.
Hensetsu (EUW)
: An honest discussion about the state of ADC's (Wall of text sorry)
I definitely agree that the biggest issue is with how crit and AS work in this game. Mathematically, these can both be treated as flat Percentage multipliers to a DPS score in a game (statistically speaking that is). The fun part of % multipliers is they can compound with each other, adding up to insane levels the more you get. This isn't a problem in itself, except for the fact that ADC's essentially have 3 different multiplier stats like this (AS, Crit, and Crit Damage), and typically they are going to be the only ones able to utilize these stats since they're exclusively based on AA's. In contrast with spell users, except for a few rare exceptions, the only % scaling stats for them to use is CDR, for both AD spell casters, or AP spell casters. Now, AP users have the benefit of getting more AP for damage, obviously, and so they do have the one item that gives the % scaling with {{item:3089}} , but then there's numerous controlling factors surrounding this. 1) It's the most expensive item in the game. 2) Most spells can miss. 3) the 35% AP increase is only indirectly added to the DPS because no spell has just flat AP ratio damage with no base damage. So you're essentially increasing damage by 35% to only 50-70% of the damage source. 4) Spells are often tricky to calculate DPS effectively as they then vary so wildly between champions, as opposed to AA users like Marksmen, since everyone can AA, you can always have that direct comparison to fall back on. Basically, what I'm starting to believe is that Riot focuses so heavily on the ADC's and marksmen because honestly, they're the easiest to adjust and be able to see the direct calculation to how the number crunching will affect the game. So they have to use this class as the base class to compare balance issues to with other classes, and if this class is wildly problematic inside itself, then they need to focus on it first. But now that Marksmen are getting to be a pretty decent place as a whole group amonst itself (although Ezreal kind of needs some attention), I'm hoping Riot starts shifting their focus to really trying to match the other classes to Marksmen power base, or what a certain class should be in their minds when compared to the Marksmen class, I mean.
: > [{quoted}](name=Drynin,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=rxPZngxh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-14T13:58:18.896+0000) > > I think the thing about Q that confuses me is just how she charges up crystals? Is it that every time she gains a Crystal Resource, she stacks the Q (So like Kassadin Force Pulse where he gets a stack every time a spell is cast?). And then at 3 stacks she spends 1 Crystal Resource to fire 3 crystals in a line, only damaging the first enemy hit? So would they fire similar to Taliyah&#x27;s Q, or three lines in a cone like Twisted Fate&#x27;s Q? > > I see where you&#x27;re going with the birds now. But remember with like Urgot legs and Fiora Vitals, those angles don&#x27;t change based on how the champ is facing, and they form a 360 cone around the champion in some way, so no real openings to get through them if they were like a minion that could block skill shots. But also remember most skill shots, especially from things like Mid Lane mages will either travel through enemies, or explode in AOE, so the blocking from the birds might not be as effective as you think. > > That being said, I think there&#x27;s definitely something you can do there for an Ult that say charges up with resources granting you a flat shield or bonuses in some way that the enemies can break with their abilities and attacks. Could definitely add some strategy for counter play. just forget the empower for Q you just gather charges and when you want press q to spend 1 crystal you got from pool to shoot one crystal orb so you can spend 3 crystals on 3 orbs 1 on 1 etc and your crystals wont get spent to prepare a charge
Ah HA! I understand now! Thank you. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Drynin,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=rxPZngxh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-14T05:15:30.746+0000) > > Hmm, interesting concept. I&#x27;ve always liked the idea of an AP carry that relies on auto-attacks, as much as their spells. If that&#x27;s not what you were going for, no problem. But here&#x27;s my thoughts on the abilities. > > Passive - Neat idea for resources. I&#x27;d recommend though it being 1 crystal for last hitting a minion and 3 for large monster/champion takedowns, but also gain a crystal every 20 to 10 seconds (reduced with level). Otherwise, she can&#x27;t cast any spells until minions spawn and she kills one, and that&#x27;s a pretty big weakness. The % health true damage doesn&#x27;t fit here though. But if you move the passive damage from her Ult here, and maybe make it 2% AP per crystal charge (so max 50% AP) you could make some interesting trade off mechanics. So she uses a spell, but reduces her auto-attack damage. > > Q - Not sure how this works. Does it build up stacks each time she gains a crystal, and then at 3 stacks she can cast it? Base damage is pretty high, but that can be tweaked. Maybe put the slow effect on this spell. > > W - Nice idea, but cooldown needs to be much higher, explosion damage way lower and increased with level of spell. Not just flat 300. > > E - How is this barrier shaped? Is it like Ekko stun field? Not a bad idea. Cool down is way too low again, and damage way too high. There should also be some sort of condition to make champs trapped in there. This and W would be way too reliable together. Good players would basically guarantee getting this combo off. > > R - I like the idea of the birds, but I think they need something else to them other than just damage with auto-attacks. I don&#x27;t think them being targets and able to block abilities makes sense in the game either. If she turns, do the birds turn too? How do they block attacks and abilities? Would they just all die with one AOE spell? I think this one needs some thought. > > Overall neat concept. I think some of the effects need a few more conditions too them, but mainly the Ult needs to really be nailed down what it does. thank you for reply :D i see what you mean with passive i might change it, q doesnt spend crystals until you cast it, picture it like teemo ult, you wait for the spell to stack up and then shoot up to 3 fast travelling orbs and apply a lot of passive stacks ( slow <3 ) for w and e i see what you mean and as i said i really need to get better with numbers so i will tweak and maybe change e a bit the ult birds follow zircona and turn if she does, like new urgots legs jut 2 at each side, they would block skill shot since they wont hit zircona but birds since they will be on their way unless its a laser like ability or one that passes through targets, and might destroy birds so sometimes it can save you but weaken you in same time
I think the thing about Q that confuses me is just how she charges up crystals? Is it that every time she gains a Crystal Resource, she stacks the Q (So like Kassadin Force Pulse where he gets a stack every time a spell is cast?). And then at 3 stacks she spends 1 Crystal Resource to fire 3 crystals in a line, only damaging the first enemy hit? So would they fire similar to Taliyah's Q, or three lines in a cone like Twisted Fate's Q? I see where you're going with the birds now. But remember with like Urgot legs and Fiora Vitals, those angles don't change based on how the champ is facing, and they form a 360 cone around the champion in some way, so no real openings to get through them if they were like a minion that could block skill shots. But also remember most skill shots, especially from things like Mid Lane mages will either travel through enemies, or explode in AOE, so the blocking from the birds might not be as effective as you think. That being said, I think there's definitely something you can do there for an Ult that say charges up with resources granting you a flat shield or bonuses in some way that the enemies can break with their abilities and attacks. Could definitely add some strategy for counter play.
: Zircona the crystal mage
Hmm, interesting concept. I've always liked the idea of an AP carry that relies on auto-attacks, as much as their spells. If that's not what you were going for, no problem. But here's my thoughts on the abilities. Passive - Neat idea for resources. I'd recommend though it being 1 crystal for last hitting a minion and 3 for large monster/champion takedowns, but also gain a crystal every 20 to 10 seconds (reduced with level). Otherwise, she can't cast any spells until minions spawn and she kills one, and that's a pretty big weakness. The % health true damage doesn't fit here though. But if you move the passive damage from her Ult here, and maybe make it 2% AP per crystal charge (so max 50% AP) you could make some interesting trade off mechanics. So she uses a spell, but reduces her auto-attack damage. Q - Not sure how this works. Does it build up stacks each time she gains a crystal, and then at 3 stacks she can cast it? Base damage is pretty high, but that can be tweaked. Maybe put the slow effect on this spell. W - Nice idea, but cooldown needs to be much higher, explosion damage way lower and increased with level of spell. Not just flat 300. E - How is this barrier shaped? Is it like Ekko stun field? Not a bad idea. Cool down is way too low again, and damage way too high. There should also be some sort of condition to make champs trapped in there. This and W would be way too reliable together. Good players would basically guarantee getting this combo off. R - I like the idea of the birds, but I think they need something else to them other than just damage with auto-attacks. I don't think them being targets and able to block abilities makes sense in the game either. If she turns, do the birds turn too? How do they block attacks and abilities? Would they just all die with one AOE spell? I think this one needs some thought. Overall neat concept. I think some of the effects need a few more conditions too them, but mainly the Ult needs to really be nailed down what it does.
: Skarner's problem is that he doesn't have a strategic identity. You pick Zac for the initiation and knockups You pick Amumu for the wombo-combos You pick Lee-Sin for early ganks. But I just can't think of anything you'd pick Skarner for. He's sort of a jack-of-all trades that does everything very mediocre. All he has is his ult really. He used to be a scrappy and sticky duelist. Everything Skarner can do, there are other champs that does it better than him Fact of the matter is, Skarner is Riot's most neglected champs. ALL the champs have gotten some of attention, whether it be new skins, Mordekaiser appearing in the Pentakill video, Volibear appearing in Ornn's story, Udyr getting a mini-rework etc. But Skarner, he doesn't exist more or less. The jugg rework ruined him. I think Riot might as well just delete Skarner from the game.
I think his identity is pretty clear. He's the late-game juggernaut hypercarry. I'd almost say he accomplishes that better than Nasus, but Nasus just got buffed pretty well and the one thing Skarner always lacked from other bruiser/juggernauts is innate healing. Of course this then illicits the obvious flaw with that identity being you REALLY don't want that type of champion as your jungler. The meta right now is mostly early game junglers, but even from older metas, junglers were never meta if they needed to wait until lvl 16+ and/or 3+ items to be relevant and then dumpster people. Even old Devourer enchantment and Lantern builds for junglers thrived mostly in mid game (although on the late end of mid game), because they would still die before they got in range of fully built ADC's and APC's. But Skarner really needs a minimum of 3 items and boots to feel effective, unless he's fed. But you will still likely either die too quickly for an immobile melee with no tank item, or do practically no damage as an easily kite-able champ who's looking for picks with his Ult.
: [MEGATHREAD] Let's Discuss: Caitlyn
I think if you look at her two major dueling identities (Being between Sniper and Sieger), you should look at Jhin (who came out around the same time as her rework, mind you) who also has a bit of that disparity, but very clearly lies in the direction of Sniper identity. Caitlyn is just too middle ground between them, and part of that is her Q, I think. I feel like Jhin's Q is much more suited for a Siege champ than a sniper champ, and so makes more sense on Caitlyn. I think that would resolve a bit of her lane-bully issues, as it's less reliable to harass enemies with it (unless opponents get too close or aren't paying attention to their own minions). This obviously doesn't mean moving Cait's Q to Jhin, because then he would have two long range skill shots. I do heartily agree with Shadow Gilgamesh though. I think a Team-Fight oriented Siege champ is a good idea, but that champ really should not be a lane bully. A sniper is fine to be a lane bully, but a Siege champ should need the aid of their teammates to really make things effective.
: Not in high elo I suppose. Stop pretending to win every game, please. There's something that tilts me A LOT, and it's when the game is 20-4, we have 0 dragons and not a single turret (whereas the enemy team has like 6), and people vote no for surr vote. I mean, what the fuck? Why should I waste time into a game where the enemy team has a 10k gold lead in 18 mins, and eventually lose at min 40 (and 90% of the time we still lose) when I could play 2 more games that could be close/balanced and not a complete stomp?
Being down 15 kills at 20 minutes and 6 turrets is likely a lost game, and I don't have a problem with people wanting to surrender. I will admit though, I'm one if those people that don't usually say yes to a surrender for two reasons. 1) At that point in the game you mentioned, it would probably be over in five minutes, so at least I like to try and make really risky plays just to see if I can out play them a little. Probably face plant from power difference, but hey, it gets the game over sooner for you who wanted to surrender. 2) in low elo, the lack of understanding of champ strengths is real. I literally had a game once of Mao, Jax, Azir, Twitch, Alistar. At twenty minutes, we were down 5 kills a dragon and two turrets yes, but my team refused to listen to me even when I pointed out at the beginning that we were a late game comp and would destroy them with scaling if we just played safe, farmed, and built up. 3) I will surrender with inting or afk players. I will surrender after a team fight we were clearly destroyed in. I will surrender at many circumstances, but I just feel it's too often brought up as a cheap excuse.
Rioter Comments
Yrzen (NA)
: The best ability in the game, conceptually
Draven's Spinning Axe. There is so much to this one thing that is relatively simple in its execution. "While it's up, you get more damage on attack. And here's a clear way to get it up again." But the depth that has created and complexity with playing him is so much fun to watch. A poor low elo player like myself watches a pro play him and just constantly catching those axes no matter what and dishing out disgusting damage. So you feel like you should practice it, and you do, and you face plant, and keep face planting. But eventually, you get that one great fight where you caught your axe 10 times, and killed 3 enemies in a 4v2 bot gank, and suddenly you feel hardcore and satisfied.
: Why are people shocked when they are banned?
So I need to say something here to the people claiming they had an "Unjust ban"/Toxicity is not as bad as griefing/Everyone here is a Snowflake. Play a physical team sport for once in your life. I'm serious. Get off the computer and join a softball league, or volleyball league, whatever. There's plenty of them out there. I promise you that a negative attitude/telling teammates they are bad/swearing a lot, anything like that will get you kicked out of that game and lose friends REAL fast. I'm not going to say they're havens for nice feelings. Emotions can run high in those games and some things can be said, but players will calm down real quick and apologize if they got out of hand and they want to continue playing. When you have to be around the same teammates for ALL your games (A luxury or a detriment depending on your viewpoint, I'm guessing) you learn to communicate and not piss others off. So now comparing real life games, here's the counters to the most common arguments I'm seeing here. **1) I've never been banned before in other stuff in gaming. Only League.** And league is quite possibly the only video game right now in the world that actively emphasizes full team play and responsibility. What I mean by this is that while I acknowledge there are a lot of competitive and team oriented video games out there, most of them can be dominated by a single player being amazing, or have situations where individual actions can be separated and rated easily. This is harder in LoL (not impossible. I won't go there), and definitely mirrors physical sports better (Try telling the quarterback he didn't need his defensive line to give the team a win and he'll laugh in your face.) **2) The real flames aren't getting punished, and I'm just defending myself against them.** They are getting punished. Just because you got punished first because your flaming was more blatant and obvious doesn't mean they won't be seen and get the boot too. Yeah, people play the system. I play Rugby as my blood of choice. Standing word is if our opponents are breaking the rules, we don't yell to the sir (ref) if they didn't see it. (Nice quick way to get a penalty in physical sports) we make it obvious that they're breaking the rules. Learn how to do this. It's a skill. If you really want to engage and defend yourself, go ahead, but keep cool, stay confident and stick to facts. If that's all you do, they can't ban you. And trust me, it's easy to tell (from all the transcripts I've seen posted here) that all these examples had the player losing their cool and starting the harassment. It was already said in this thread, but it bares repeating. Saying, "You're bad!" Is harassment, not constructive criticism. Saying, "Care, you're too far forward, and that's why you've been ganked several times," doesn't matter if they say "Shut it. So Toxic." You're not going to get banned. **3) Toxicity has nothing to do with gameplay and is easily avoided.** This is the big one that I honestly can't believe people are saying. In full team sports like I've been describing, communication is key. Hell, how many of you have flamed because "Mid-no AFK!? WTF!?" Saying you can just mute a player so you don't get anything form them except limiting it to pings is incredibly oblivious to game dynamics. While pings are a useful tool, they can't be the end all, so the solution can't be to completely shut off a teammate. That will still affect the gameplay significantly. Again, the first thing I learned in practice for Rugby was the coach wanted to hear us yelling on the field. I think that was drilled into us more than almost any other piece of rules or strategy. Talk! Talk to your teammates. I can understand getting heated and emotional in the moment, but seriously, the thing that baffles me is I've never seen a game where someone in chat admitted they were hot and apologized for it. NEVER! I think if that started happening a little more people would start to believe these "Unjust bans" claims a lot easier.
: Assassin Roster Update - LeBlanc Direction
I'm surprised the guesses with the next AP Assassin on the list, people are ignoring Nidalee. I mean, she's prime example of the simple but effective playstyle for an assassin of, "poke...poke....poke....poke, BOOM!" Not to mention the fact that she's way too versatile for an assassin class. She has healing, mobility, poke, all-in, vision control, and can go in any lane and still be a serious frustration to play against. This strikes me as the epitome of no-identity for a champ. Sure Kat and Fizz are frustrating to play against, but they have clear weaknesses to exploit and are only really good and viable in a few roles. I'm guessing Nid is the other big AP rework, with Fizz and Kat are getting milder changes.

Drynin

Level 72 (NA)
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