Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 20
Is there any info you can share regarding the 10th Anniversary goings-on? I know about the logo change, and I'm sure there is more than just that, but the fact that it is the only thing we've really seen thus far is kind of concerning. 10 years is a big thing, I would expect a bigger celebration than just a logo change.
: Too be fair if you're losing a kill to a traditional soraka player you're doing something way wrong.
http://orig07.deviantart.net/218e/f/2014/016/7/f/no_one_expects_the_banana_by_skitzopheliac-d72ejxp.jpg
PaladinNO (EUNE)
: https://66.media.tumblr.com/be3a89e90414da65926673d7982ba713/tumblr_ol9gpkN7Hh1v3ckk2o1_1280.jpg
Fear not, they'll express their gratitude with the following letters: KS. Kill Secured.
: Why not, for the 10th anniversary of LOL, make a "Classic Skin" Map?
Holy crap people, it was just a suggestion. A random thought.
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Shahamut (NA)
: LOL Skarner has ZERO personal agency over his passive. The fact that ANYONE can activate/deactivate it is bad enough, add to that the fact that NO ONE HAS TO FIGHT INSIDE OF THEM. Im not sure what your definition of agency is, but you seem to have gotten it right for Garen, but wrong for Skarner.
What I meant was that Skarner has CONTROL over it. He CONTROLS them, he makes it so that they are active. For Garen, he LITERALLY HAS NO CONTROL over his existing Juggernaut Steroid.
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Moody P (NA)
: garen isnt changing enough
This is why I made that post I did about him having his Juggernaut Steroid removed. But he's not getting an actual worthwhile NEW one in it's place. He is the ONLY ONE to be having that done to him. I won't bring up Skarner because for all intents and purposes, he isn't even a Juggernaut anymore. Darius has his Noxian Might still. Morde kept his Dragonforce up to his VGU. But Garen ONCE AGAIN gets the short end of the stick. It is because he's supposed to be a beginner-level champion? I thought people said that about pretty well ALL Juggernauts. I guess what I'm trying to say is this is NOT A BUFF, this is a NET NERF! It's Riot saying, "We have no idea what to do with Garen, but we know that you have complaints about Villainy, so here, take this and shut up! Why don't you just play something flashy like Riven anyways?"
: If they made large scale changes to Garen, it'd end up like Aatrox. I say leave him to be what he is. If he's a balance mess or if people think he sucks, leave him that way.
But there is a problem. Garen is getting his main steroid, the Villainy passive removed, but really isn't getting anything new in its place. The R change to true damage all the time is the same as saying "Everyone's the Villain now!" It also makes his R out to be a lesser version of Darius's, as Darius's ALSO does true damage and is an execute, AND it resets, while Garen's does not. I'm not saying they should change Garen's R to have resets, but this is just making him out even more to be a LESSER version of Darius. Why pick Garen if you can just be Darius? The E getting changed to scale off of AS is a step in the right direction, but his W is getting gutted in the process. This also removes the incentive to build one of Garen's most bread-and-butter items, {{item:3071}} , in favor of {{item:3078}} . But this AS scaling also makes it to where Garen will be MUCH SQUISHIER if he builds to maximize his AS scaling effectiveness, and more so if he gets Crit items to make use of the Critical Strike interaction his E has had for the longest time, but I've never seen anyone USE, myself included (An L7 Garen player, just so you know)! There's also another problem. If the Villainy passive takes up SO MUCH of his power budget, and now it's getting removed, but THIS is the best they can come up with, WHY remove it?
: > [{quoted}](name=Divin1ty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zrFxH1pj,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-30T19:06:26.554+0000) > > AHHAHAHAHAHA. > You mean the lane that gets treated **instantly** when ADC Mains cry out? > What about Mages and Bruisers being viable bot? > Nope, patched out in two weeks. > > What, IBG Viktor ruining Toplane? No, that's diverse, prolongs to stay there for four fucking months. > Don't get me started on the Reigns of Terror, coming from Gnar, Kennen, Quinn and Riven. gnar and riven is a toplaner tho... > [{quoted}](name=EbonyBladeJ88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zrFxH1pj,comment-id=00030000000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-30T19:17:24.126+0000) > > Yup. I was just about to make a post on this fact how there is a major double-standard when it comes to "Champ Diversity" in lanes other than Top. > > Remember the cries when Riot said they were going to try and open up botlane to more than just typical Botlaners (I.E. Marksmen)? They turned tail on that one pretty fast. > > But when mostly Melee Toplaners bring up issues that Ranged Champions cause when they go top? Nope, gotta have muh 'Diversity'. > > Also pardon me if it seems like I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but I will acknowledge that Riven is at least Melee, unlike the other 3 you bring up, though at the same time I will not deny that she has problems all her own as well. honestly i kinda wish they would open botlane up to more roles then marksmen. its not like marksmen are limited to botlane. kindred and graves both are junglers vayne and quin can go top. they let yasuo go botlane so why not other melees and midlaners
> [{quoted}](name=hazerddex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zrFxH1pj,comment-id=00030000000000010001,timestamp=2019-08-30T19:17:57.937+0000) > > honestly i kinda wish they would open botlane up to more roles then marksmen. They tried during, I believe it was last Midseason? Or they were at least exploring options regarding it, if nothing else. But like I said, most Botlaners (Marksmen) raised a BIG STINK over it, so they dropped the idea. > > its not like marksmen are limited to botlane. > > kindred and graves both are junglers > > vayne and quin can go top. > > they let yasuo go botlane so why not other melees and midlaners It's not like they would have problems facing a Melee as a Ranged, if what we've seen with Toplane is any indication. In fact, they would have an EVEN EASIER TIME of it, since they would have a SUPPORT to help them, whereas in Toplane they're on their own, unless their JG decides to camp their lane to ensure they win. And even when they're on their own in Toplane, as long as they use their ranged tools to keep their mostly Melee opponents at arm's length, they win. On top of them being ranged, their supports (As long as said Support is something like an Enchanter or a Mage) are ranged as well, so that's TWICE the potential poke a Melee Champion might have to face were they to go Bot. In a way, it's almost CONFUSING how they so vehemently opposed the idea of opening the lane up to Melee champs, because if THEY (The Ranged player) plays it wisely, it's practically a FREE LANE!
: Because we rarely get listened to at all? Riven? Took 12+ patches Klepto Vik? About 4 patches Diversity in bot? Patched out in two patches almost immediately.
Gotta love them double-standards. While it hasn't happened quite as much recently, I have gone times where I am facing Ranged after Ranged after Ranged in Toplane. Most recent time? About 11 to 12 games IN A ROW of nothing but Ranged Tops. I won't say whether or not I won or lost those games, I am merely bringing up how often it was occurring during these, I guess you could call "Phases" of Toplane trouble. And before people say "Then why don't you play a Ranged Top too?" It's because, maybe, just MAYBE, I JUST LIKE playing Melee Champs. I like the "Power Fantasy" (A term I've seen thrown around on these boards as well as by Rioters) that many of them represent. I like being a guy in armor with a huge weapon that they use to just crush whatever gets in their way, such as {{champion:122}} , {{champion:86}} & {{champion:82}} . I could go on, but I figure I'm just preaching to the choir here.
Divin1ty (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zrFxH1pj,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-08-30T19:02:08.752+0000) > > Nope. > > There's bot lane AHHAHAHAHAHA. You mean the lane that gets treated **instantly** when ADC Mains cry out? What about Mages and Bruisers being viable bot? Nope, patched out in two weeks. What, IBG Viktor ruining Toplane? No, that's diverse, prolongs to stay there for four fucking months. Don't get me started on the Reigns of Terror, coming from Gnar, Kennen, Quinn and Riven.
Yup. I was just about to make a post on this fact how there is a major double-standard when it comes to "Champ Diversity" in lanes other than Top. Remember the cries when Riot said they were going to try and open up botlane to more than just typical Botlaners (I.E. Marksmen)? They turned tail on that one pretty fast. But when mostly Melee Toplaners bring up issues that Ranged Champions cause when they go top? Nope, gotta have muh 'Diversity'. Also pardon me if it seems like I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but I will acknowledge that Riven is at least Melee, unlike the other 3 you bring up, though at the same time I will not deny that she has problems all her own as well.
: And all those champs suck dick in top lane. well neeko and kennen are ok. how about you give examples of good tops o wait you can't.
I'm sorry, where in my comment above do I say whether the champs I listed were good or bad when played in Top Lane? I was merely expanding on what Ragnaveil said regarding many of the ranged champs that DO go Top often have tools or forms of disengage that prevent them, when used wisely anyways, from being all-inned by a Melee Champ. I then proceeded to give examples of said tools, based on the Ranged Champions that I (As a Juggernaut and Tank player in the Top Lane) have faced in the past.
: I think to make Conq work, they should make each tick count towards Conq stacking (or every 2 hits, just experiment on it). Its a rune he kinda wants to use, but cant use due to E coding.
As is, he has to stack by AAing for the most part. Yes, the Q and E count for 1 stack, but there's 3 more he has to get to fully proc it. You may not have the luxury of the time to do so if you're getting wailed on by multiple enemies, or in some other kind of bind. Most other Juggernauts can use it, yet Garen gets left out in the cold.
: Issue is most of the picks that are ranged have tool(s) to save them from all ins.
Yup. Examples: {{champion:67}} : Point and Click Knockback that also acts as a Proc for her W and can stun if the target hits a wall. Invis through her Tumble while Ulted. {{champion:133}} : Skillshot Blind that, if it connects, she can use to escape while your vision is reduced. Also has her Vault knockback. {{champion:13}} : Slow that he can turn into a conditional root. Also Ult that literally teleports him away from you. {{champion:8}} : Literal Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card W. {{champion:51}} (I admit I don't see her as much as the above 4): Spamable traps that Root. Self-Knockback that applies a slow if it connects. {{champion:518}} : Root that gets EMPOWERED when going through minions. Invis that sends a Decoy in the chosen direction. {{champion:18}} (I see her even less than Cait, but it's not impossible to see her either) : Literally Jump that can't be stopped once started. Knockback Ult. I'm sure there are more, but that's all I can think of.
: Top lane 1st pick when autofilled is the worst
> [{quoted}](name=Mordepool,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-08-29T12:50:41.895+0000) > > Top lane 1st pick when autofilled is the worst Top Lane 1st pick in general is the worst. Which is why I always ask my teammates below me in Champ Select if there are any champs they'd like me to lock for them (As I own all champs, even though I don't PLAY all champs) since I'm 1st pick. Some take me up on the offer, some don't. But when they don't take me up on the offer, well... I'm kind of screwed. I hate how counterpick heavy Top Lane is, yet Riot continues to put their fingers in their ears whenever we say anything and go "La La La, I can't hear you, I'm not listening!"
: To be fair, it makes Tri a core on him. You could also run Legend: Alacrity to get attack speed without having to invest heavy in it. Wits can fix his sustain issue, especially if he's getting low in a trade.
> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=seg8ainA,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-28T03:03:37.104+0000) > > To be fair, it makes Tri a core on him. You could also run Legend: Alacrity to get attack speed without having to invest heavy in it. Wits can fix his sustain issue, especially if he's getting low in a trade. Yes, but TBH, I was kind of interested in the fact that he might actually be viable with Conqueror with the On-Hit effect, but now that that's gone (At least based on my most recent check of Surrender@20's PBE coverage) it's just the same old Grasp. He needs changes that can help him have more synergy with more Keystones.
Rioter Comments
: If you want to imply that slippery and sticky are the same, then no, that is not true. Look for example at Warwick. {{champion:19}} His Q, W movementspeed **towards** enemies and his R give him quite some stickiness. But I doubt that anyone would really call him slippery. He is better at chasing enemies than he is at escaping them.
Yup. You can force a Warwick to run away, and his MS boosts don't do any good then. But for Vayne? There's no escape. You can't run towards her because she'll just use her E to keep you at arm's length. But you can't run away from her either because she gets MS chasing you, and it's boosted when she ults! You can kind of use Teemo for this argument as well, but his MS Boost wears off much quicker than Vayne's does.
: When was the last time you played top lane?
Don't even get me started on that utter and constant thorn in my side (I say that because there are much MUCH worse things I'd LIKE to call her, but I don't think they'd be OK'd by the Mods); the moment she's picked I know my game is already over, and it's just in CHAMP SELECT. Whenever she's picked and you have the misfortune of being a Melee Champ, get ready for some weeping, wailing and much gnashing of teeth, because if the person is even HALFWAY decent, it's confirmed HELL for you. Even more so if your JG doesn't do anything about it, which is what happens most of the time, since most the JGs I get when I'm facing a Vayne (Or most other Ranged Toplaners, for that matter) consider my lane a lost cause right from the get-go. Even if she's CONSTANTLY overextended, and I'm letting them know as such, I hardly ever get anything. Or it just goes that she 1: Ults and Runs via the Tumble Invis, or 2: Ults and kill us both because of that Tumble Invis. It's enough to make you.... https://i.giphy.com/media/3o7bu8mwh3U6SXtLjy/giphy.gif
5050BS (NA)
: Yes I know. I just cant believe they buffed it to hit even more. People all say "no one will build full attack speed on him in live. He will just die too fast" They dont understand the sustain he has with E that does not stop when he is Stunned.
> [{quoted}](name=XXXMurderPenguin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=seg8ainA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-27T22:59:52.008+0000) > > Yes I know. I just cant believe they buffed it to hit even more. It's an experimental change to push him to build more like other "Freight Train" Juggernauts, such as Shyvana, Volibear (Though that may not be true anymore with the future VGU) Trundle and maybe a few others I might be forgetting. If you're wondering what I mean by "Freight Train", it's an unofficial classification that Juggernaut players such as myself use. In addition to the existing Subclass setup that Riot created, Juggernaut players have expanded it and made their own "Subclasses" OF the Juggernaut Subclass of Fighters. These are "Raid Boss" and "Freight Train" style Juggernauts. Raid Bosses are the slow, powerful ones such as {{champion:122}} , {{champion:82}} , {{champion:6}}, {{champion:83}} , as they have certain "Steroids" or "Boosts" they must activate or proc through various means to be most effective (Noxian Might, Darkness Rise, Echoing Flames, etc.). Freight Trains are the faster, but less hard-hitting or less tanky Juggernauts, as the case may be with the champion themselves. Examples are of course, our one and only {{champion:86}} , along with {{champion:102}} , {{champion:106}} and {{champion:77}} . Now some are kind of a mix between the two, such as {{champion:36}} and {{champion:48}} getting MS and/or AS with certain parts of their kits (Sadism/Ult for Mundo and Frozen Domain for Trundle), but for the most part, you can fit all the Juggernauts within those two unofficial categories. > > People all say "no one will build full attack speed on him in live. He will just die too fast" You bring up the drawback to this yourself. If this were to go live, Garen would HAVE the option to build AS to maximize his E's effectiveness, but he runs the risk of being too squishy since most AS items provide little to no innate defensive bonuses. In a manner of speaking, with this change to where his E gains spins based on his AS, this suggests to go more for building Crit items, since his E HAS Critical Strike interactions, and he is, as far as I know, the ONLY JUGGERNAUT IN THE ENTIRE GAME to have Crit interactions,even if its only on 1 Ability. Since I've never built Crit on him myself, even WAY BACK when I first started playing around 2012 (A full year, more or less, before Garen's Visual Update even) I've kind of struggled with understanding WHY he has had that interaction IN his E. With this change, it might ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE to build it on him now. Also, while you don't mention it here (You have your own reasons, I won't mock you for not bringing it up), but in the previous iteration his W also got some changes, where the amount of Armor and MR he gains is greatly reduced, so he can't depend on it quite as much. I haven't looked at the full list for this newest iteration, but I assume at this time of writing that the changes are more or less the same to his W here as it was there. I've tested this myself in the PBE, and while I haven't gathered enough info yet to make an expert analysis, I've found the most success by simply doing what Garen already did; 1 to 2 damage items, and full tank the rest of the way. He already has Tenacity in his E, so he can take the 10% AS Stat Shard, and the Legend Alacrity for an additional 18% when it's fully stacked. With his 3% AS increase in level ups, he gains 30% come level 18, so that's about 58%, so 2, ALMOST 3 additional spins by that alone. That's not really a huge boost. > > They dont understand the sustain he has with E that does not stop when he is Stunned. In a manner of speaking, the sustain he will get (Presumably because of his newfound ability to stack Conqueror) will be a GOOD thing. Garen (Alongside {{champion:36}} and {{champion:106}}, though like I said above, that may be changing with the VGU Voli's getting) is one of the few Juggernauts who literally has NO IN--BUILT sustain. Much like the New Mordekaiser, his sustain, in a manner of speaking, would rely heavily on the heal from the Conqueror Rune. Here's examples of what some of the others have: {{champion:122}} : Heal on Outer Blade of his Q. {{champion:420}} : Heal every time a Champion is hit with a Tentacle, whether it be her Q or the ones she spawns via her passive or her Ult. {{champion:48}} : Heal every time a unit near him dies based on a percentage of that unit's maximum health. {{champion:75}} : Yes, it's free innate life-steal, but HE has to proc it by hitting someone or something. {{champion:266}} : Heals for a percentage of the physical damage he deals. {{champion:83}} : Heals every time he hits someone or something with his Q. {{champion:77}} : Turtle Form: 3 stacks = Heal based on percentage of his missing health. For Garen, his "Sustain" is Out-of-Combat boosted regen. That's not really a very "Juggernauty" thing, as most Juggernauts, Garen included even, want to be in the THICK OF IT FOR AS LONG AS THEY CAN. This change would allow him to actually stay in a fight rather than being dependent on running in, doing what he can and then backing off so his Passive can heal him and wait for his cooldowns.
Hotarµ (NA)
: Mordekaiser mains, now that some time has passed, how do you feel about the rework?
Love it, though at the same time I will not deny there are some aspects I have problems with. First of all, his E. It's great that he finally has some CC of his own and isn't reliant on outside sources (Such as {{item:3116}} and/or the CC of other team members). His E is quite telegraphed and dodgeable, but also has a good sense of reward if you pull it off and land a good Q with it. His W is good, although I sometimes think the "fall-off" or decay rate is almost too quick, as (While some could say the difference is negligible, it IS quite noticeable when I recall my time with the old Morde) 1 second in comparison to 1.5 Seconds (The old Morde shield decay rate, you can even check the LOL Wiki, as it is from where I am getting this info) since especially in this Damage-High meta as we have, .5 seconds can be the difference between life and death at times. The rate at which it decays isn't a problem, just it feels that the amount of time before it does, well, like I said, seems too quick at times. Love his new Q, and the damage multiplication on a single target is a worthwhile callback to the old 3-hit, multiplying Q. But at the same time, I think the old multiplying damage was an interesting and unique concept, even among Juggernauts and I would love to see that back, perhaps in a reworked Juggernaut kit, or perhaps even a brand new one, as long as the idea matches said Juggernaut's theme. Now his R. While it's sad you can no longer turn fights into 6v4s, if you can slay your target in the realm, the 10% core stats you gain CAN help turn a fight around, but of course it all depends on how the fights OUTSIDE your Death Realm are going too; if you won your fight but your team still lost theirs, well... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Then, there are times when the 7 seconds serve more of a utility-aspect, where you don't care if you win or lose the fight IN the Death Realm; you're just removing a threat from your team for as long as you can. If you can kill them, more power to ya; if not, hopefully your team can still act on the removal and sweep up the rest of the enemy team while you're keeping said threat occupied. All in all, I say it's a successful rework. He has clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, and while I don't like the fact that QSS {{item:3140}} literally nullifies his ult (They changed it to where it doesn't cleanse Zed's Death Mark, so why is it suddenly OK to nullify Morde's?) I'm not on the Gameplay or Balance team and can't make decisions on that. Overall, this metalhead gives a thumbs up. https://i.giphy.com/media/oX9ow6cx76sZO2Vb5B/giphy.gif
5050BS (NA)
: Wow just compared from the last round > Judgment (E) Tick changed from [5+1 per 3 levels (max 10)] to [8+1 per 25% attack speed] Garen gains 49.3% attack speed by level 18 Base damage changed from 14/18/22/26/30 to 9/15/21/27/33 AD ratio changed from .36/.37/.38/.39/.4 to .26/.295/.33/.365/.40 Hits needed to shred armor increased from 4 to 6 [Removed] No longer deals 33% bonus damage if hitting only one enemy [New] now deals 25% bonus damage and applies on hit effects (50% damage) to nearest enemy He will get even more hits with attack speed then before. Riot is Crazy
This is still just experimental; it may end up like the Wukong and Teemo reworks we've seen and may not even see the light of day before some massive changes. It all depends on the feedback that Catchaxes/Riot gets.
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: > [{quoted}](name=EbonyBladeJ88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zp1oYqfH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-14T17:06:53.507+0000) > > I watched the video whole way through but... I'm still hesitant to think these are for the better. > > Now, I know, what does a lowly Silver 2 Garen player like me know in comparison to Riste, the pretty-well Exemplar of Garen? > If I could test them in person, on the PBE (But I don't have a PBE account) and see them in action, perhaps my viewpoint will change. > But as it currently stands, I'm not a fan. I think most agree with you, but in riots defense. Just like riste said, its to open garen up more instead of having him being a niche executioner
> [{quoted}](name=TheDangerousTaco,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zp1oYqfH,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-08-15T01:05:08.019+0000) > > I think most agree with you, but in riots defense. Just like riste said, its to open garen up more instead of having him being a niche executioner I'd probably feel alot better if I could play them myself and get an actual feel for them. Just HEARING about it from others (Even if it's someone like Riste) isn't enough. A first-hand experience is always better than a second-hand opinion.
EdgeLady (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=EbonyBladeJ88,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=JxmnMEGY,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-08-14T23:07:38.261+0000) > > Well, I realize this is on a SAS thread, but with the death of Jarvan the 3rd in the lore, and J4 thus now becoming the new king OFFICIALLY, could this mean that we may be seeing J4 get a VGU? Let me clarify first by saying that he should NOT usurp the positions of Volibear and/or Fiddlesticks, or any other champions that Riot has decided upon for VGUs in the time since the last Champ Roadmap, but MAYBE, just MAYBE, this could lead him to getting changes. > > Getting a fancy new kit to go with his new position? I can get behind that. Jarvan's kit is fairly good; his rework will probably be more in-between Ezreal-level and Morgana-level. Mostly the same, some tweaks to modernize the kit more. In fact, along with Ezreal (and Rakan more recently), his kit has been good enough over time to grant him not one but *two* Worlds skins. However, he definitely needs a visual update badly. His visuals on his model, especially the awful faded yellow color of his armor, look horrible in comparison to more modern models. His voicelines are also fairly outdated now, though at least he doesn't mention the Summoners. Hopefully he keeps some of the more well-known lines, and he better still shout "DEMACIA" when he ults. Hopes are that Kyle Herbert can come back and voice him; he didn't do Ezreal's rework (likely because his voice wouldn't fit with Ezreal's insecurity-upped personality tweaks) but he did revoice old Pulsefire Ezreal about a year and a half before. So it's not as if it's impossible. Also, lastly (but least importantly), he does have some outdated splash arts that could use a mini-rework as an opportunity to be redone. Particularly: Commando, Dragonslayer, Darkforge, and Victorious. Maybe Warring Kingdoms too. His base splash can probably stay the same, since we see in this comic that the splash is very accurate to how he still looks in today's lore.
But at the same time, this would be a golden opportunity for one. He's the KING now; an opportunity to completely reinvent himself. He could be the opposite to Azir; whereas Azir uses his soldiers, commanding them like a general, J4 could be the opposite. J4 would be right in the thick of it, throwing down ALONGSIDE his soldiers, rather than just commanding them. Yes, he could just get minor changes ala the Ezreal VGU or Morgana VGU, but like I said above, he's now the King; we could get to see how a KING of Demacia fights, not just a PRINCE. As for what the Kit's design itself could be, I don't know, but this would be a prime chance for him to get one. Only time will tell, but I personally think it could be a good idea.
: > [{quoted}](name=EbonyBladeJ88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hOEteg0R,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-08-14T23:01:29.164+0000) > > We don't consider them "perfection"; perhaps it's the fact that we just like them, and because we like them, we get defensive when people badmouth them. You mean when we point out things like most of them auto win once in melee and thus shouldn’t have an easy time getting into melee?
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hOEteg0R,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-08-14T23:56:30.633+0000) > > You mean when we point out things like most of them auto win once in melee and thus shouldn’t have an easy time getting into melee? If they get within range of you, that's on you for not kiting well enough.
: [Spoilers] Lux: Issue Nr. 4 - Feedback, Discussion and Questions
Well, I realize this is on a SAS thread, but with the death of Jarvan the 3rd in the lore, and J4 thus now becoming the new king OFFICIALLY, could this mean that we may be seeing J4 get a VGU? Let me clarify first by saying that he should NOT usurp the positions of Volibear and/or Fiddlesticks, or any other champions that Riot has decided upon for VGUs in the time since the last Champ Roadmap, but MAYBE, just MAYBE, this could lead him to getting changes. Getting a fancy new kit to go with his new position? I can get behind that.
: Good old Gary. *recieves all the best medicine in the land* {{champion:86}}: "I sleep" *told Demacia is in trouble* {{champion:86}}: "I must go! My people needs me!"
> [{quoted}](name=N1C Jeddy017,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=JxmnMEGY,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-08-14T22:37:08.257+0000) > > *told Demacia is in trouble* > > {{champion:86}}: "I must go! My *sister* needs me!" FTFY.
: Be ready to be downvoted to shit. Every bruiser is perfection on these boards dude. Your just throwing gasoline into the hashinshin echo chamber.
We don't consider them "perfection"; perhaps it's the fact that we just like them, and because we like them, we get defensive when people badmouth them.
: I think you clicked "reply" on the wrong post, because I can't see the link between my reply to Reaversal and your post here...
> [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zp1oYqfH,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-14T22:55:32.571+0000) > > I think you clicked "reply" on the wrong post, because I can't see the link between my reply to Reaversal and your post here... Cause he deleted his before I could reply to it. >Nope, I did it again. >Deleted my post because I'm a fucking brain-dead illiterate r%%%%% AGAIN. >Sorry I was wrong, I won't ever try to think again. Sorry you had to waste your time correcting my garbage ass.
Ekhasm (NA)
: Ult change is good. You shouldn't be punished for doing well.
> [{quoted}](name=Ekhasm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zp1oYqfH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-14T21:21:11.778+0000) > > Ult change is good. You shouldn't be punished for doing well. The IDEA behind the Villainy passive wasn't all that bad; it was just supposed to be Garen bringing the bad guy/girl to Justice. But the way it was IMPLEMENTED, that's what screwed it up. When Garen got this back in the Juggernaut Update, he was the ONLY ONE who had NO AGENCY over HIS Booster. For Darius, just apply all 5 stacks of Hemorrhage. For Skarner, just have you or a teammate activate (Or reactivate) your Crystal Spires. (I know, I know, Skarner had massive problems with his Booster too, but he still had AGENCY over it.) For Mordekaiser, just make sure you land an attack on the Dragon and keep the DoT on him until he dies. (Yes, this no longer applies either with his VGU, but, just like with Skarner, at the time this was implemented, Morde still had AGENCY over it.) But for Garen? He is COMPLETELY reliant on the enemy team getting kills. If it's a low-kill game, the Villainy passive is useless. He himself has NO AGENCY over his Booster. Good on paper, BAD in execution.
: Because all on-hits items have a lot of AS, and Urgot doesn't scale with AS. Garen E will, now.
> [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zp1oYqfH,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-14T21:18:43.731+0000) > > Because all on-hits items have a lot of AS, and Urgot doesn't scale with AS. Garen E will, now. But a major problem I see is that Garen has never had this before, in his entire history! Just to clarify, I even went to the LOL Wiki and looked through his changes in "Patch History". Nowhere has this EVER been part of his Kit in the past. The only On-Hit things he has had synergy with are things that affect Auto-Attacks and thus his Q, like {{item:3742}} or {{item:3022}} . If you wish to double-check my source, here's a link: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Garen (Then click on the Tab that says "Patch History" and look through the area at the bottom of the page.) Another thing about his E changes is the AS Scaling. People have suggested in the past that his E should have AS scaling, but I always assumed that it was never added or given much thought to be added, due to the fact that it already had the Critical Strike effect, which, if I recall correctly, makes him the ONLY Juggernaut with Crit synergy in his Kit, even if it's only on 1 Ability. Building Crit Items now would give him even MORE AS on top of any On-Hit items he might build. The problem with his E having Crit Synergy is that it makes him much squishier if he builds them, since Crit items don't offer any real defensive capabilities. So most of the time, no one builds it on him. And Crit itself is a kind of wonky Stat bringing RNG into him if he builds it, making it unreliable. One time it could give him a Kill, and the next time it might not. Juggernauts need RELIABLE methods to deal their damage, not rely on RNG.
: Whille I'm not a garen main and the changes do sound weird and potentially really bad, one interesting thing would be to build cleaver and BORK. If he's fighting tanks especially, but bork would be interesting because he would proc the healing and % current hp damage (at 50% value) multiple times during a fight, PLUS he would get monster AS from it. Just a though. But after that, garen would definitely have to invest a little more in tank items than he used to since his W is now being gutted. Also note that Garen's E no longer has a cap on how many time it can hit, whereas before it maxed out at 10. And as another aside, frozen mallet might be interesting on him when coupled with BORK and cleaver, due to the constant speed boost from cleaver, the AS, healing, and damage procs from BORK, and the slows from frozen mallet. For once garen could have a form of semi reliable cc other than a silence. Just thoughts
> [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFEMNlwn,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-14T16:27:22.059+0000) > > Whille I'm not a garen main and the changes do sound weird and potentially really bad, one interesting thing would be to build cleaver and BORK. If he's fighting tanks especially, but bork would be interesting because he would proc the healing and % current hp damage (at 50% value) multiple times during a fight, PLUS he would get monster AS from it. But this adding of application of On-Hit effects to his E seems so out of the Blue. He has never had that before, in the entirety of his history. Just for the sake of clarification on that, I even got on the LOL Wiki and looked through his changes in Patch History. Nowhere has he ever had On-Hit effects be applied through his abilities aside from things that affect Auto-Attacks such as {{item:3742}} or {{item:3022}} , which of course affected his Q. You can check it yourself here if you like. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Garen (Go to "Patch History" and look through the section at the bottom of the page.) > > Also note that Garen's E no longer has a cap on how many time it can hit, whereas before it maxed out at 10. People have suggested in the past that his E should have AS scaling, but I always assumed that it was never added or given much thought to be added, due to the fact that it already had the Critical Strike effect, which, if I recall correctly, makes him the ONLY Juggernaut with Crit synergy in his Kit, even if it's only on 1 Ability. The problem with his E having Crit Synergy is that it makes him much squishier since Crit items don't offer any real Defensive Capabilities, so most of the time, no one builds it on him. And Crit itself is a kind of wonky Stat bringing RNG into him if he builds it, making it unreliable. One time it could give him a Kill, and the next time it might not. Juggernauts need RELIABLE methods to deal their damage, not rely on RNG. That's just MY thinking now, can't speak for others. > > And as another aside, frozen mallet might be interesting on him when coupled with BORK and cleaver, due to the constant speed boost from cleaver, the AS, healing, and damage procs from BORK, and the slows from frozen mallet. For once garen could have a form of semi reliable cc other than a silence. The problem is that forces him to build items he normally doesn't, meaning he can't build more Armor and MR, even if he might NEED it. This VASTLY reduces his tankiness, and that goes against what a Juggernaut is supposed to be. It requires him to INVEST MORE in damage, when, AS A JUGGERNAUT, he shouldn't need to invest THAT HEAVILY in damage. > But after that, garen would definitely have to invest a little more in tank items than he used to since his W is now being gutted. Juggernauts are SUPPOSED to be Durable AND Deal Damage. These changes to his W GREATLY reduce his Tankiness/Durability, and his passive changes reduce his sustain, which is supposed to be his "Survivability" since he doesn't have any built-in combat sustain like most other Juggernauts.
: Well this takes the stupid award of the day.
Methinks he lost to a Juggernaut and is a little miffed about it.
: Riste explains the "NEW Garen changes"
I watched the video whole way through but... I'm still hesitant to think these are for the better. Now, I know, what does a lowly Silver 2 Garen player like me know in comparison to Riste, the pretty-well Exemplar of Garen? If I could test them in person, on the PBE (But I don't have a PBE account) and see them in action, perhaps my viewpoint will change. But as it currently stands, I'm not a fan.
: The Villain mechanic was just wasted power budget that only worked on one enemy champion at a time, that Garen had no control over. For the most part, his E seems stronger even if you aren't building any AS. That said, Wit's End would probably be really dumb on him. Have fun fighting him 1v1 in melee range when he's healing ~40 Health every 0.2 seconds. Also, isn't Tiamat's passive an on-hit effect? So, Garen can just buy Tiamat, hit E, and minion waves just implode instantly.
I know; it feels like he got the least thought put into his "Juggernaut Rework" back with Season 5. I feel like if it were to be removed though, something else needs to be done. Yeah, the E changes might be a start, but it guts his W in the process and the scaling of his "New" passive seems kind of wonky. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, I don't know. I know you were being sarcastic with the Wits end thing, but at least then he would actually have some in-combat sustain like most other Juggernauts.
: So... Passive change means he could technically jungle again, since constant HP regen W is being gutted big time E is being boosted slightly? I think? The on hit is weird considering he builds 0 on hit items R is being gutted for people who targeted villians, but buffed otherwise Overall, really bad changes
> [{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFEMNlwn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-14T02:21:51.705+0000) > > So... > > Passive change means he could technically jungle again, since constant HP regen > > W is being gutted big time > > E is being boosted slightly? I think? The on hit is weird considering he builds 0 on hit items > > R is being gutted for people who targeted villians, but buffed otherwise > > Overall, really bad changes Yeah, I'm not really feeling it with these. I mean, yeah, Villainy is wonky, but it works ENOUGH for those that make use of it. W is really, gutted. E, I'm not really sure what to call it. I know some have suggested that his E be changed to have AS scaling, but the way it's being presented here, I just don't know.
Rioter Comments
: PATCH 9.16
So Mundo's having the Tenacity on his W leveled across the board and his E CD is being changed to presumably scale down with level. That's not all that terrible of a change, really.
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EbonyBladeJ88

Level 193 (NA)
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