me op mid (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7gpLzupI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-16T00:28:26.183+0000) > > They primarily focus changes on pro about 2 patches a year, in time for worlds/msi. > > The rest of the time, they follow the BALANCE FRAMEWORK which covers all areas of play including average players, high-tier players, top-tier players, and pro. Yes ofc they follow the "balance framework", thats why Zoe, Sylas, Akali rework and neeko exist. You must be very low elo if you think they balance the game. Ask every streamer/master+ player, but literally every one of them, they will tell you that this game is not even closed to be balanced and no one is really trying to balance it. Why do u think champions that were perma banned in season 1-4 are not banned now? bcs they balanced them. Why do u think some champs are pick or ban for the goddamn whole season 9? bcs no one is balancing right now.
> [{quoted}](name=me op mid,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7gpLzupI,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-10-16T10:30:04.272+0000) > > Yes ofc they follow the "balance framework", thats why Zoe, Sylas, Akali rework and neeko exist. > You must be very low elo if you think they balance the game. Ask every streamer/master+ player, but literally every one of them, they will tell you that this game is not even closed to be balanced and no one is really trying to balance it. > Why do u think champions that were perma banned in season 1-4 are not banned now? bcs they balanced them. Why do u think some champs are pick or ban for the goddamn whole season 9? bcs no one is balancing right now. 95% of champions are between 48 and 52% winrate at most levels of play. That sounds pretty balanced to me.
: Unpopular opinion but it needs to be heard
I don't want to be the one to break this to you, but I think I have to be.... People have been saying 'this is the worst season ever' since League of Legends launched. Every single season has been 'the worst season ever' to a segment of people. And, no matter what Riot does, every season will be 'the worst season ever' to a segment of people. And, most likely, that segment will be extremely vocal, making it seem like everything is always getting worse. This has been a reality in EVERY ONLINE GAME EVER. Heroes of the Storm, back when anyone cared about it, had naysayers saying 'this is the worst its ever been'. Every D3 patch is 'the worst patch ever'. Every DotA 2 patch is 'the worst patch ever'. Every CoD is 'the worst CoD ever'. Every Fortnite season is 'the worst season ever'. This is just how people are online. Every WoW expansion was 'the worst WoW expansion' to some people when they were playing it - even Burning Crusade and Wrath(which are often seen as WoW's golden age nowadays), when they were fresh, had some people who hated them. Burning Crusade was extremely heavily criticized for destroying guilds, while Wrath had its critics both over 'making things too easy' and 'making things too hard'. You're never going to escape 'the worst the game has ever been' as long as you play games. Sorry.
: Uberdanger has a very good point
They primarily focus changes on pro about 2 patches a year, in time for worlds/msi. The rest of the time, they follow the BALANCE FRAMEWORK which covers all areas of play including average players, high-tier players, top-tier players, and pro.
Swimmx (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=72Nt3U2R,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2019-10-09T16:07:58.302+0000) > > It doesn't matter what political statement they made, if the world champions tried to use Riot's platform to make a political message, they'd be heavily penalized for it. > > When you're invited onto a large business's public press platform, you don't use it to amplify your own political message. > > While I support the message the HS dude made, he chose a REALLY stupid way to get the message out and ABSOLUTELY deserved what happened to him. What about the announcers?
> [{quoted}](name=Swimmx,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=72Nt3U2R,comment-id=001a0000,timestamp=2019-10-09T16:22:51.661+0000) > > What about the announcers? The fact that they hid behind the desk BEFORE he said it gave a very clear signal they knew something was coming. Which meant Blizzard couldn't trust them. Since they weren't employees, it made the most business sense to simply no longer be involved with them.
Swimmx (NA)
: What if the LOL world Champions this year speak out in support of Hong Kong.
It doesn't matter what political statement they made, if the world champions tried to use Riot's platform to make a political message, they'd be heavily penalized for it. When you're invited onto a large business's public press platform, you don't use it to amplify your own political message. While I support the message the HS dude made, he chose a REALLY stupid way to get the message out and ABSOLUTELY deserved what happened to him.
Jøkèr (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p9Ao0FH9,comment-id=0007000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-06T03:21:50.855+0000) > > No, I'm saying your approach to the game is the reason you dislike promos, not any inherent problem with promos themselves. You're creating stress for yourself, and you could easily avoid that but you choose not to. As a result, every game is stressful and promos are way more stressful still. > > And I'm pretty sure Riot stated recently that ranked has been the most popular queue for a long time... but I can't cite it, so I won't say it as fact. What the are you talking about? Despite the myriad of stupid (but funny) shit that happens in either ranked or normal games, I'm not really stressed about LoL at all. I simply find that promos is tedious.
How could they be any more or less tedious than any other game? They're just games like any other.
Jøkèr (NA)
: So what you are saying is that I should go through tedious bullshit (in terms of promos) just to get a sense of value from promoting, than just climbing the rank. I like a good challenge but playing this game is annoying enough. Why have the extra layer? If Riot removed promo games, it's not like everyone will start winning. You are still gonna be matched with 9 other variables that determine the outcome of each game. Believe me, I think losing 3-5 games in one sitting is 'lose enough.' Any more and it would be demoralizing. There are probably more players that play normals than ranked games. If this idea was implemented, we could see more players opting to ranked games. The whole idea of promos was to give a tournament style way to rank up. But there is no tournament. For the most part, there is no meeting with four other individuals and training and fighting against another team that does the same. We are literally in a matchmaking queue that put in 10 random players who's skill levels vary (including smurfs). I believe that there is still meaning into ranking if you wanted to with or without promos. Everyone started somewhere and they usually want to see how far they can reach to the top.
No, I'm saying your approach to the game is the reason you dislike promos, not any inherent problem with promos themselves. You're creating stress for yourself, and you could easily avoid that but you choose not to. As a result, every game is stressful and promos are way more stressful still. And I'm pretty sure Riot stated recently that ranked has been the most popular queue for a long time... but I can't cite it, so I won't say it as fact.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=f4jA20aA,comment-id=00190001,timestamp=2019-09-20T21:03:59.429+0000) > > I love how people thumbsed down this without replying. lol > > Come on, don't chicken out. The OP didn't chicken out, the rest of you who downvoted should do the same - try to provide your set of checks and balances. > > If you can't do it, then stop complaining about how easy it must be. > > Followup note: I am not trying to claim Riot is doing a good job. Nor am I going to say they're not. I'm just saying... if you all think its so easy... do it up. Tell me what you want it to check for. Because I'm sure if you ACTUALLY have an answer, and one that fits the important criteria... we can probably pitch it to Riot - and other MOBA developers - for a good chunk of change. Every MOBA dev would love to find the magic formula. 1: Zero false positives isn't a goal that can be achieved even in the IRL justice system, so that doesn't sound like a good reason to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If there is a false positive, that sounds like something that would generate a support ticket (and so human review) in the vast majority of cases. 2: Item purchases are important. Nobody does mass item sell-offs to purchase six of the same item for a legitimate reason. This is low-hanging fruit that can be easily picked. Shit like the image described in the OP shouldn't be possible. 3: Nah. There's no reason borderline cases can't be surfaced for a human (either riot, or a volunteer) to look at. I still maintain that if freaking CSGO can have Overwatch, we can have Tribunal in a form that fixes the problems of the old one. The presence of stuff like the image in the OP shows me that their fancy machine learning system has some blind spots so big a truck could drive through them.
> [{quoted}](name=Karunamon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=f4jA20aA,comment-id=001900010000,timestamp=2019-09-21T04:02:34.309+0000) > > 1: Zero false positives isn't a goal that can be achieved even in the IRL justice system, so that doesn't sound like a good reason to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If there is a false positive, that sounds like something that would generate a support ticket (and so human review) in the vast majority of cases. > > 2: Item purchases are important. Nobody does mass item sell-offs to purchase six of the same item for a legitimate reason. This is low-hanging fruit that can be easily picked. Shit like the image described in the OP shouldn't be possible. > > 3: Nah. There's no reason borderline cases can't be surfaced for a human (either riot, or a volunteer) to look at. I still maintain that if freaking CSGO can have Overwatch, we can have Tribunal in a form that fixes the problems of the old one. The presence of stuff like the image in the OP shows me that their fancy machine learning system has some blind spots so big a truck could drive through them. The problem with false positives in a situation like LoL is that false positives are lost customers. People are far less likely to appeal a ban in a game than a criminal mistrial... since the former has a much smaller life impact. CSGO's playerbase is roughly 1/100th the size of LoL. That makes something like a tribunal much easier. Their max concurrents EVER was less than a million(their average is closer to around 300 thousand). It's completely reasonable for a manual review system to manage reports for a playerbase that size. Less so when you're dealing with a playerbase estimated to be around 100 million active players, with estimates of around 30 million daily players. I've seen a lot of people who die as we're pushing the nexus(in games where we go 5 for 1 and have a full free minute to take down nothing but the nexus) sell their items and buy all tears(before they made them unique) or stuff like that. People also do it a lot when they know there's no way they'll respawn in time to protect anything. Should people who do that automatically be punished? Seems harsh. I mean, it's not something I'd personally ever do, but *shrugs* it's fine as long as you're not going to respawn before the game ends anyways. Doesn't hurt anyone. Hell, in one game I played, our Zed who was like... 10/0 before our last push, got a penta during the final fight but died to the nexus tower as it happened. The remaining four of us were still alive, he sold everything and bought all amp tomes. He HARD carried that game, was pretty nice during the game, didn't treat anyone poorly... yet your system would punish him for it? Okay. Also... 'six daggers' is actually a feasible item path for some characters early game. So you can't just do 'six of one item gets you banned'. Sorry, not that simple. Try again. :)
Jøkèr (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p9Ao0FH9,comment-id=000700000001,timestamp=2019-09-20T20:59:24.041+0000) > > Demotion protection is definitely a thing. After you get promoted, you have a grace period where you can't be demoted. > > If they get rid of promotion matches, they'd have to get rid of that as well. That's fine. If a player usually risks losing LP just to gain LP, I dont see why we should make the transition of promoting tedious. Lose enough games and you will demote. Same is with other certain competitive games.
But it wouldn't be 'lose enough' it'd be 'lose one'. You'd literally promote, then demote on your next loss. Seems like it'd make that first game after you promote needlessly stressful... and it'd probably take any sense of meaning out of promoting entirely. It always amuses me how unhealthy most peoples' approach to this game is... they treat EVERY game like it's a tournament or a promotion series, which means every game is extremely stressful, and thus there's no room to get 'more serious', so if any added pressure gets added on, it breaks them. Learn from G2. They try to play their best every game, but they still joke around, have fun, and take some levity into the situation. However.... when it comes to an important game, all bets are off and they go srs mode. That's how it should be. Your normal ranked games should be FUN. You should still play your best, but you should be enjoying it, win or lose. Then when you get to a series, you go srs bsns mode and pull out all the stops. And if you lose, well, that leaves you more motivated to do it next time.
: Alright, I'll bite. How would **you** design the system, given the following criteria: 1) Your system can have no false positives at all. 2) Your system has to be looking at behaviour patterns, not item purchases. 3) Your system has to be completely automatic. Given that, what would you have it look for? If a high school student can do it... surely you can, right?
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=f4jA20aA,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2019-09-19T19:14:41.764+0000) > > Alright, I'll bite. How would **you** design the system, given the following criteria: > > 1) Your system can have no false positives at all. > 2) Your system has to be looking at behaviour patterns, not item purchases. > 3) Your system has to be completely automatic. > > Given that, what would you have it look for? > > If a high school student can do it... surely you can, right? I love how people thumbsed down this without replying. lol Come on, don't chicken out. The OP didn't chicken out, the rest of you who downvoted should do the same - try to provide your set of checks and balances. If you can't do it, then stop complaining about how easy it must be. Followup note: I am not trying to claim Riot is doing a good job. Nor am I going to say they're not. I'm just saying... if you all think its so easy... do it up. Tell me what you want it to check for. Because I'm sure if you ACTUALLY have an answer, and one that fits the important criteria... we can probably pitch it to Riot - and other MOBA developers - for a good chunk of change. Every MOBA dev would love to find the magic formula.
: > [{quoted}](name=Grumpig,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p9Ao0FH9,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-09-20T15:06:22.934+0000) > > If they remove promos they would have to make it so you demote the second your lp drops below that tier. if your plat 4 at 10 lp and then lose 16 lp you would be gold 1 with 94 lp. I just hope you understand that. By that logic, if you have to win 3/5 games to get into gold. Than, you should have to lose 3 games to get demoted. Hope you understand that. Few seasons ago I was Silver 1, in series, lost 12 games in a row and went all the way down to Silver 5 in a span of like two days; where it took me several weeks to climb to that point. Granted, this was several seasons back; HOWEVER, I highly doubt it's changed that much or at all. I don't even bother to play ranked anymore seeing as it's 90% luck on getting at least 1 to 2 competent teammates. The entire system is a joke and it's been one for years. Nothing has, nor will it ever change. This game might be turning 10 years old, but it's still the same frustrating and miserable game to play. Half of us still play because we've invested to much money in it, they're seriously addicted to this game, or alternative games out there just aren't as appealing despite the aggravation that comes with this game. There's a reason why almost every other player community of other games talk so poorly of ours, it's not just the gamers that are toxic it's the GAME itself.
Demotion protection is definitely a thing. After you get promoted, you have a grace period where you can't be demoted. If they get rid of promotion matches, they'd have to get rid of that as well.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Yea and players have varying rates of averages. Why the distribution models matter. You need your model to account for majority's ranges. Still averages will populate naturally, more games the more they fall into a range of consistency till you can divide them into outliers and standard. One of the reasons sapmagic seems to be enamored with Positional MM is it helps reduce the Gap in performances. My opinion is a lot of the ladder have similar skill at the game but suffer from consistency issues, as you improve consistency you climb. Its not just getting amazing mechanics to have higher values on your best cases, cutting away the excess weak performances will improve your rank. Look at the # of folks who have a massive list of champions at 1-5 games and weak win rates. Often times they combine to eat their best champions wins resulting in them hovering at their MMR. Take away 16-28 losses from randomized one off games some one did for no discernable reason and that impacts their position. Players are almost always going to use their good and better performances and write off "weak" and bad games. Like if you roll a dice. 5.5 Is the average for a d10 but if you ignore lower roles you view that same dice at a higher average. An extrema case would be to ignore anything under 9 which results in 9.5. That dice would think its self to be 40% superior to its peers averages.
Ya, that's why I really liked the concept of the positionals. It's a pity to me that they were scrapped. It's why I always try to keep my teammates from ragging on someone playing poorly. It's, realistically, quite likely that that same player was carrying hard just last game... but, consistency is just not there yet.
Kai Guy (NA)
: MM stops the moment a lobby is made. Player decisions are everything after that point. If I dared you to play Crit {{champion:16}} adc your next ranked game. Then you did it. How in the hell is MM gonna predict you would do that? Set realistic expectations. Target issues, This is very much a player behavior problem if its related to in game issues. MM is MMR. MMR is objective. How the game plays or what the experience is like does not matter to MMR. Just Probability and %'s
Yep, the reality is that most players sub-masters are inconsistent. Matchmaking can only account for your AVERAGE performance, but if that average is defined by one REALLY good performance and one REALLY bad performance... then the MM system has no idea which one of you is going to show up that game. If the really good you shows up, then it looks like you weren't matched against strong enough opponents, if the really BAD you shows up, then it looks like you were matched against way too good opponents.
Jøkèr (NA)
: Get rid of promo games.
I guess they should also remove the demotion protection then, since the reason it exists is because once you've successfully completed the series, you get a bit of a grace period to prove you deserve to be there. Ugh, this just sounds like it'd make ranked so boring.
Lo4ding (EUNE)
: Honestly, I dont know why people on these boards hate pyke that much or is it only NA thing? Because I have never met anyone who does not like pyke, lik seriously. Pyke design is fine. He just needs a little tweaks. Remove double gold and revert it to full gold for assistance and slight nerf to passive regeneration. There are far worse champions that does (Except ulti) much better job on what pyke does. Bloody AP/Tank Nautilus deals more damage, have better CC and survive much much more and that is just one.
No, there is nothing that is a worse design than Pyke. Nautilus IS op right now, but it's not a design problem, it's a balance problem. Nautilus' numbers are just too high. His design is fine though, overall. Pyke has no weakness. His kit has functionally everything: He has two sources of CC. He has two escape tools(dash and invis). He has BONKERS sustain. He has stupid scaling - he triple dips on offensive stats, basically, since he gets extra damage from lethality(beyond just the normal effect), and even gets bonus offensive stats from defensive stats. He has tank-level base stats. He has a snowball mechanic which ALSO doubles as a catchup mechanic. He has a hard execute. He has a displace effect. Literally the only thing he lacks is good wave clear. And that's not really a weakness. With most hook champs, your goal is to poke them so that if they try to engage, you still win the fight. With Pyke, that doesn't work, 'cause he just goes out of LoS for 2 seconds and heals most of the poke you did back up. Endlessly. Most assassins, you have to just stop them from getting ahead, because they're not very good from behind... with Pyke, he has a HARD execute, so he just needs to land that once and the team gets DOUBLE GOLD from the kill, so it just takes one or two kills for him to go from insanely behind to ahead. Most squishy supports, you wait for them to try to engage, avoid it, then dive them.... not so with Pyke, he just dashes away and goes invis when you try to dive. Problem avoided. He needs a remake to get rid of his safety. A champ that scales AND snowballs that well, should not be that safe. Ditch the stupid grey health mechanic, make his dash shorter-range if not used in the direction of an enemy champ(or make it require a target as opposed to a location)... something to remove his safety. That's the problem. If he was PUNISHABLE, he'd be healthy. But he's not.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=f4jA20aA,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2019-09-19T19:14:41.764+0000) > > Alright, I'll bite. How would **you** design the system, given the following criteria: > > 1) Your system can have no false positives at all. > 2) Your system has to be looking at behaviour patterns, not item purchases. > 3) Your system has to be completely automatic. > > Given that, what would you have it look for? > > If a high school student can do it... surely you can, right? from my studies with bots in the coop-ai we understand a lot about the mechanics of the players, the build is certainly a clue as is the kill participation and the k / da, but this can be mistaken for a bad game, but there are others data to be taken into account. after which you can check the movement made by the player in comparison to the rest of the team, compare it with other cases of other inter and look for analogies, the damages done, as made make it clear if the death was intentional or not, then counter the use of spell or other means of evasion, and compare it with other game passes 1,2,3 times, but not 18 ... after the chat can help, see if it makes explicit its intentions ... --- remember every action we take is a logical set of thoughts that even a computer could perform. in any case sorry for the English. It's 3AM and I had no balls to translate, so I use google translate
> [{quoted}](name=TheViceroys,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=f4jA20aA,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2019-09-19T22:42:15.789+0000) > > from my studies with bots in the coop-ai we understand a lot about the mechanics of the players, the build is certainly a clue as is the kill participation and the k / da, but this can be mistaken for a bad game, but there are others data to be taken into account. after which you can check the movement made by the player in comparison to the rest of the team, compare it with other cases of other inter and look for analogies, the damages done, as made make it clear if the death was intentional or not, then counter the use of spell or other means of evasion, and compare it with other game passes 1,2,3 times, but not 18 ... after the chat can help, see if it makes explicit its intentions ... > --- > remember every action we take is a logical set of thoughts that even a computer could perform. in any case sorry for the English. It's 3AM and I had no balls to translate, so I use google translate No worries - google translate did fine in this case. I can understand your intent. I believe you're beginning to see the complexity though... even cases where the player's movement isn't aligned with the team, maybe there was just poor communication and they were aiming for differing objectives. That sort of a system is likely what Riot is trying to develop, but - while it may be pretty easy to develop for a single casepoint - it's much more complex when you consider it has to deal with millions of players playing in millions of different ways and accurately read the situation through billions of games. And thus... it becomes much harder to design. Like... I have a game where I went like 1-7-0 and i barely got to build any items before we lost... that could be seen as a troll game. But... as a collective team we only got one kill and we had like 30 deaths, so it was just 'one of those games'. Yes, it would be fairly easy to create a set of very specific criteria that would catch like... two people each(0 kills or assists and more than 5 deaths over 15 games, only bought rejuv beads - as an example). But that's a waste of dev time. And... players are really good at figuring those sorts of things out, so the trolls would just adjust their behaviour the tiniest bit to avoid it. I'm not saying this to say Riot shouldn't try or even to say that Riot is doing a good job of this... just to say that the problem is a lot harder to solve holistically without ALSO punishing a LOT of innocent players than most people think.
: https://u.gg/lol/champions/pyke/build?rank=challenger 36% banrate in challenger. https://u.gg/lol/champions/pyke/build Also only 41% ban rate in general with a really average 50% winrate. This is the website that Riot has said most closely reflects their internal statistics.
That's what I figured. While I do agree Pyke is Riot's worst designed champ... he is not currently imbalanced, he's just.... not fun to have in the game. Pyke doesn't need nerfs, Pyke needs a REDESIGN. A redesign that de-emphasizes his gold gain, removes his sustain, and limits his escape tools to make him the high-risk assassin he SHOULD be.
Saezio (EUNE)
: We have polar opposite points of view. I wish all champions had high skill floors and ceillings and all of them had the potential to cause the same frustration as a pyke/yasuo/akali/katarina/riven. But I can understand people that don't want to play these kind of champions and prefer more chill champions are upset when these high risk high reward champions are viable. Because they only remember the times they get destroyed and forget all the times that these champions are just non-factors. I do not think Nami is a well designed champion, I think she is a very boring champion that has very small mechanical requirements. And I think it is an atrocity that she maintains such a high win and play rate in such a high elo. If equally easy to play champions had the same stats but in positions like top/jungle people would be rampant. For example champions like Yi/Trynda/Garen/Darius in diamond+ games
Fortunately for me... Riot's dev team agrees with me on how to balance the game. *shrugs* So I guess you're playing the wrong game? That being said... Nami has two slow-moving, potentially high-impact skillshots, a high mana-cost heal that actually has a pretty significant decision tree to it, and usually builds at least two active items, which add more decisions. She's not a low skill-cap champ. She's just not oppressive, because she doesn't do 10 billion damage. Trust me, the gap between low-skill Nami and high-skill Nami players is MASSIVE. Also: To be clear, I don't generally have a problem with most of the champs you named. Pyke, however, is broken. He is not 'high risk' - he has insane mobility, invisibility, ridiculous damage, insane scaling, a gold-catchup/snowball mechanic, self-heal that can heal him to near-full from almost nothing, and high movement speed. He even has a full execute AND two cc abilities for if he somehow doesn't snowball so he can 'stay relevant'. There is NOTHING risky about playing Pyke.
: That's why people complain about the LOL report system...
Alright, I'll bite. How would **you** design the system, given the following criteria: 1) Your system can have no false positives at all. 2) Your system has to be looking at behaviour patterns, not item purchases. 3) Your system has to be completely automatic. Given that, what would you have it look for? If a high school student can do it... surely you can, right?
Yenn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=DerMangoJoghurt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBs8ZE2x,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-19T09:54:12.976+0000) > > One plating is worth 160 gold, one kill is worth 300. Getting 3 kills worth of gold is impossible just by breaking plates. For 2 kills he'd need to break 4 plates, which is virtually impossible to do within the time span of a regular roam. Usually you get 1-2 plates if your opponent leaves the lane. > > If you roam resulting in a kill and an assist, your team gained more gold than 2 platings are worth. Kills are generally worth less than 300 gold after the first couple minutes of the game. You'll never see a game where every kill you get is worth 300 gold. The total gold is 1250, and the turret is generally gone after the second roam. It averages to slightly more than 2 kills, likely closer to 3 with reduced bounties. Also, all of this gold is concentrated on one champion. This is far more effective than having the gold split, which is why team gold is a relatively useless indicator unless it's significantly higher for one team. A champion with a full item advantage can easily 1v2 or 1v3, even if the score and team gold is relatively even.
If a person is taking more than one plate in the time it takes you to roam, either you're setting up your roams wrong or they're getting help from their jungler or another laner. If the latter is the case, the gold isn't concentrated on one person.
: So according to your own Metrics Pyke should of gotten nerfed by now Riot
https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2019/05/dev-champion-balance-framework/ For below ~plat the threshold is 54.5% win rate if their ban rate is low, or 52.5% win rate if their ban rate is high For plat -> masters, the threshold is 54% win rate with a low ban rate, or 52% win rate with a high ban rate. For challenger, the threshold is 45% ban rate For pro play, it's 90% presence If a champion meets any of those four criteria, they get nerfed. So unless that 65% ban rate is specifically at Challenger, they're not breaking their balance criteria... that being said, I believe since this patch is the world's patch, they may be paying less attention to solo queue balance temporarily to ensure a stable playing field for worlds...
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Balance team is buffing TOO MUCH
Bear in mind that MOST small numerical changes are directly driven from the balance framework... so if a lot of buffs happen, it means there were more champions below the threshold than there were above the threshold at this specific time.
Saezio (EUNE)
: So, feelings should be more important than actual strengths and weaknesses of a champion when it comes to balancing them. This is your opinion. My opinion is the opposite. Different schools of thought I have to say.
I'm stating facts: A well designed champion feels balanced even when they're not. A poorly designed champion feels imbalanced even when they're balanced. I 100% support Riot's current balance framework, which targets any champion with changes - regardless of feel - for being factually too strong. But I also believe that, in order to make a fun game, you have to re-design champions who create that feeling of oppression even when they're balanced. Champions like Pyke. He may not be factually overpowered, but he IS factually badly designed. This is why having two separate groups working on the game is a good thing: A balance team to make numbers and small kit changes to ensure good balance, and a champion re-design team to perform larger, deeper changes to champion kits to help bring them into a place where people don't despise them regardless of how balanced they are. These two teams are both essential to a successful game... because if you have a game where every champ has a perfectly 50% win-rate... but people hate every champ because none of them feel good to play against... then it doesn't really matter that it is balanced, you're still not going to have any players. Similarly if you have a game where all the champs are fun to play as and against, but some of them have like 85% win-rates... nobody will want to play because games will feel decided before they start. These are both bad outcomes. Nami, while strong, is not so strong that she's out of line. She also isn't a champ that people hate to see because she doesn't make you feel like you didn't have a chance. This is why she doesn't get changes. If her winrate goes up much more, she'll cross the 'too strong' line and get targeted for minor nerfs. But she's not there yet, and that's a positive for the game IMO. Pyke, while perhaps not overpowered, has a crazy high ban rate, and NOBODY likes to see him in ANY role on the enemy team. That means that he should probably be targeted for deep kit-level changes because his kit is unhealthy - regardless of whether he is numerically balanced. He is a badly designed champ.
: Yeah he gets way too much gold. And him already being hit and run makes him wayyyy too good for being just a support
He also scales super well with items, so if he DOES get gold, he becomes obscenely strong.
: Lowest HP in game (minus Ani?), miss Q and eliminated, Heal pretty subpar before you get AP - mana cost is crazy pre fully stacked mana rune. E is okay but meta ADC's barely use auto's and (Kaisa in 50% of games) will have ulted far from you to buff them. The ult is good. She's not overloaded.. skilled bubbles are rewarded justly. The meta is hook champs anyway, Nautilus vs. her will result in some roasted fish sticks.
Nautilus is flat out broken as a support. He's the reason I can't ban Pyke like I want to. lol
Saezio (EUNE)
: Yeah not like that was a normal game 2 months ago that OP is describing. And not like OP is Plat while the enemy bot lane was Iron+Silver. Not like if you put any plat player vs silver+iron they will get easily fed. PYKE MUST BE BROKEN. 50,1% winrate in Plat+ ABSURD, 49,2% winrate in D+ UNFATHOMABLE P.S. Nami having 52%+ winrate across all elo bellow challenger is somehow OK tho because we don't mind losing to her because it doesn't feel like she DUNKED OUR ASSES
Because Nami, no matter how strong she is, FEELS balanced. You never feel like you didn't stand a chance against her. So nobody cares. That's the sign of a well designed champion. People are content to play with or against her, even when she's strong. While a poorly designed champion, nobody wants them in the game even if they're weak.
: I played a game as Pyke and snowballed..
Welcome to Pyke. I wish I could ban two champs, if I could I'd ban pyke as my second ban every game. But I can't... so sometimes he doesn't get banned.
GilxeN (EUW)
: Champs I see: Jungle: Vi, Kha'Zix, Rengar, Evelynn, thats all. Top: Somehow mixed, Darius, Jax, some Poppy players, Malphite (FULL AP BROKEN SHIT ofc). Mid: Sylas, Zed, Talon, some popular mages. Bot: Kai'Sa (every game), Jhin, Cait, Ezreal Support: Thresh, some Zyras', Brand's.
You're forgetting Xayah, who is WAY more common than Ez and almost certainly the scariest ADC other than Kai'Sa. And in support, I see mostly Morgana and Rakan. With just enough annoying Pyke/Brand/Vel to piss me off.
: Champion pool getting smaller and smaller when its getting bigger and bigger
While Kai'Sa is very much overly common... I have not seen a lot of Karthus, and Irelia is usually banned so I dunno how often they'd be picked. I see more Jinx and Xayah than Ez personally. Have seen some Jhin, Ashe, Varus as well. You can play whatever you want, as long as you know how to do it and it fits the role needed for the team. I got stomped by a Kalista a few weeks back... I doubt their team accused them of trolling.
Arakadia (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Wf0Zi8NK,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-30T19:38:22.623+0000) > > Instant Feedback Reports are not a guarantee, they're a small percent chance every time someone you reported gets punished. Sources for this or are you relying on personal experience which is shit and not worth anything?
> [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Wf0Zi8NK,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-31T07:43:18.640+0000) > > Sources for this or are you relying on personal experience which is shit and not worth anything? I don't have sources handy, but they talked about it when they first rolled out the stupid system and one of the points they repeated several times back then was that you should never EXPECT instant feedback reports because they are only received some of the time on successful reports.
afmghost (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Wf0Zi8NK,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-07-30T15:05:51.473+0000) > > How do you KNOW nothing gets done when you report people in game? > > The first several steps of the punishment process are completely impossible to detect unless you're the person themselves. Feedback reports. I would only receive them on occasion, but only when the person reported goes well over the top.
> [{quoted}](name=afmghost,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Wf0Zi8NK,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-07-30T15:50:53.205+0000) > > Feedback reports. I would only receive them on occasion, but only when the person reported goes well over the top. Instant Feedback Reports are not a guarantee, they're a small percent chance every time someone you reported gets punished.
: No Riot, I will definitely not recommend the game to anyone at this point.
I sometimes wonder if people who post things like this even realize what the game would be like if they had their way.... We'd have a system that just willy nilly automatically punishes players for trolling when they have a single bad game(because people don't want trolls to be able to troll multiple games before getting punished, so the only way to do that would be just to punish anyone whose scoreline looks like trolling because an automated system can't accurately detect a troll from a single game, and there are too many players for Riot to hire enough people to review every report)... hour+ queues for desirable roles because autofill would be gone(to anyone who thinks this wouldn't be the case, you're just wrong. Sorry, no sugarcoating it, but you're just wrong)... a meta with so little damage nobody would ever die and games would last hours... *shrugs* I guess that's one way to kill League.
afmghost (NA)
: This is the kind of crap that I find beyond pathetic. I have played the game and been on the boards. I have received verbal tongue lashings God knows how many times on both platforms. When I send reports about it, not a damn thing gets done, so I can conclude I'm being told to sit through it. However, should a mod be told to go away or to shut up (which, considering this is the league community, is about as mild as it gets), the world's suddenly on fire. This proves two things: 1. These mods (at least the ones involved here) have a spine made of Jello, and that's with some generous rounding up. 2. Authority corrupts. It is now 8:48 GMT-5 (daylight savings time). I'll put down the time this comment gets deleted.
> [{quoted}](name=afmghost,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Wf0Zi8NK,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-07-30T12:48:24.079+0000) > > This is the kind of crap that I find beyond pathetic. > > I have played the game and been on the boards. I have received verbal tongue lashings God knows how many times on both platforms. When I send reports about it, not a damn thing gets done, so I can conclude I'm being told to sit through it. > However, should a mod be told to go away or to shut up (which, considering this is the league community, is about as mild as it gets), the world's suddenly on fire. > > This proves two things: > 1. These mods (at least the ones involved here) have a spine made of Jello, and that's with some generous rounding up. > 2. Authority corrupts. > > It is now 8:48 GMT-5 (daylight savings time). I'll put down the time this comment gets deleted. How do you KNOW nothing gets done when you report people in game? The first several steps of the punishment process are completely impossible to detect unless you're the person themselves.
: Jungling is frustrating.
I can imagine jungle must be really frustrating... but at least the trade-off for that frustration is that you are the single most influential role on the map.
: Riot: Kha'Zix and Lee Sin deserve buffs in 9.15 and Shaco does not.
I.... think it's because nobody but Shaco mains ever want to see a Shaco in the game. (Also, I'm pretty sure Shaco's winrate in at least one bracket is high enough to stop him from being justified for buffs)
Ahri Baka (EUNE)
: To the people who are Saying Season 9 is the worst season and calling it worse than season 8
Every season is the worst season to the people playing in that season. Because the people who TALK about the season the most are the ones having the least fun. The people loving the season tend to play the game instead.
: Riot can u give us winrate of autofill role ?
My guess is 50%, because I imagine there are often autofill players on both teams... which means 1 wins and 1 loses.
: Riot deleting every post they dont like XDDD
The post was OBVIOUSLY removed because you were breaking the rules by advocating trolling.
Terozu (NA)
: Riot hard buffs Lux, she gets a prestige. Riot hard buffs Pyke, he gets a legendary.
I'm cynical, but even I'm not THIS cynical. lol If you actually think the skins team goes into the balance meetings and says 'hey guys, I need you to ruin balance for the sake of what we're designing', then I think you're genuinely delusional. Coincidences happen.
: ***
Uh... so you just engage every time your dash comes up? I think I now understand why you think Pyke is weak.
: ***
Thresh has no defensive mobility, Lulu has more defense but very low offense and no direct mobility, morg has NO mobility at all, and no real sustain when supporting, brand has no mobility, sustain, or defenses. So no, those champs all, emphatically, do not have more tools than Pyke. Pyke can cc onre person, do a ton of damage, then cc that person AGAIN, then execute them, then escape if things go south with his stealth since he can get back to range while the person's stunned. And Pyke is virtually impossible to cc using any skillshot because he has so much mobility and camo. The thing is, the NUMBERS you provide aren't wrong, but it's not the NUMBERS that make Pyke OP. So you can provide factual numbers, but still be wrong about him being broken. Because he's broken due to the overload of bs in his kit. Again: I get it, you enjoy abusing a broken champ. But at some point you have to recognize that the REASON you find him fun is BECAUSE he is broken.
Aitikian (NA)
: This doesn't solve skill based AD champions like Renek, Yasou, Darius, Irel basically any meta top champion that you would actually be building this item against.
Thornmail isn't MEANT to be the counter to skill-based AD champs. It is meant to be the counter to AUTOATTACK based AD champs. That being said, your examples aren't the best examples of AD casters... since all of these are pretty auto-attack dependent, and Renekton also relies a lot on self-healing, which this would reduce.
: Think of it like this: Since this champ doesnt get bonus HP, his HP powerbudget is transfered onto his W. It needs to be strong to make up for his missing health pool. So when he has 100 hp left, it is equivalent to 200-300 hp for a "normal" champ. Im not saying he is balanced, fun or even fair to play against, but specifically this part of his kit seems fine. Edit: _ I have never said anything about the state of his armor or hp stats, just stating the fact his hp is fixed other than lvl growth. Maybe he needs some tuning here and there, but his grey health mechanic by itself seems fine to me._
If there's one thing most analysts and pros agree on, it's that the 'grey health' mechanic is just bad design. For every champ that has it.
: 100 Hp Pykes gets ignited + aery + scorch + brand dot passive.
Pyke is broken. Brand is stupid too, but Pyke is just completely broken.
: Are you aware of what hyperbole is? I played several thousand games last season. The chances of getting 2 offrole games mid and then autofilled, is not the same as getting hit by lightning 3 times consecutively. As I cannot go back to games from last season, I cannot get you proof. This is irrelevant anyway. The argument is whether it CAN happen, which is definitely the case no matter how low the chances. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant.
Of course it is theoretically possible. But it is also theoretically possible for a person to walk into a wall and phase through it because the atoms and molecules just line up perfectly. Is it ever going to happen? Probably not. But is it possible? Ya. Technically.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7qLg4ueA,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T14:42:19.729+0000) > > Singed is not SUPPOSED to die. He's supposed to attract attention for a long time and slip away(that's why he builds so much movement speed and the like). Occasionally he dies, but if he's dying constantly, he's doing it wrong. > > Suicide Sion got nerfed HARD, for exactly that reason. I can't remember the last time I saw it. > > The problem with 'time spent dead' runes is that they're a self-fulfilling prophecy. You take less survivability, so you die more often, but spent less time on each death. You're far better off just taking MORE survivability so you don't die as often. But the 'time spent dead' rune sounds good so people fall into the trap of thinking its worth it. The only cases where it was actually good are cases like suicide Sion which are not considered healthy playstyles. > > Gold runes are kind of the same. The only time they were ACTUALLY the right decision was when supports were buying no items except wards and gp10 items and simply covering the map in vision. And, speaking as a support main, I do not want to go back to that time. Other than that one niche time, gold runes were a BAD CHOICE - you were better off doing almost anything else. So yes, gp10 runes WERE a trap. 1 singed players die constantly 2 {{item:3142}} Glacial{{champion:14}} laughs at your lack of awareness 3{{champion:30}} exists 4 Choices matter
1 BAD Singed players die constantly. Good ones waste enemy time and don't die. 2 I literally have never seen that build. I've never heard anyone other than you mention it. And I doubt its healthy. So I really don't care. 3 Karthus would STILL rather not die in most cases. And Karthus REQUIRES heavy damage amounts, so he can't waste runes on things that don't help him deal that. Still a bad idea. 4 Choices matter, but if I present you with the following two choices: a) I'll give you five dollars b) I'll egg your house every day for a week. You're not going to feel like you have a real choice. Similarly, if I present you with the following ten choices: a) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. b) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. c) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. d) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. e) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. f) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. g) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. h) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. i) A bag containing between 499 dollars and 96 cents and 500 dollars and four cents in it. j) Someone smears feces on your car You're still not going to feel like you had any real choice. Just adding more choices does not necessarily increase real options.
Boomer (OCE)
: Can't believe this is banworthy
Glad to see that word added to the 0-tolerance list. Good job Riot.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7qLg4ueA,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T14:19:31.824+0000) > > However a build built around dying constantly is NOT fun for your allies who get demoralized watching you die over and over again. Even if they understand the goal, it still puts an unnecessary burden on your allies just because you want to do something stupid. > > Some options get removed because the playstyles they enable are BAD for the game. yet they made {{champion:27}} and let his playstyle demoralize teams? And {{champion:14}} ? But no a Thresh that takes any time spent dead or gold runes to either get back to team fights faster or have Items faster at the expense of raw stats is a no no?
Singed is not SUPPOSED to die. He's supposed to attract attention for a long time and slip away(that's why he builds so much movement speed and the like). Occasionally he dies, but if he's dying constantly, he's doing it wrong. Suicide Sion got nerfed HARD, for exactly that reason. I can't remember the last time I saw it. The problem with 'time spent dead' runes is that they're a self-fulfilling prophecy. You take less survivability, so you die more often, but spent less time on each death. You're far better off just taking MORE survivability so you don't die as often. But the 'time spent dead' rune sounds good so people fall into the trap of thinking its worth it. The only cases where it was actually good are cases like suicide Sion which are not considered healthy playstyles. Gold runes are kind of the same. The only time they were ACTUALLY the right decision was when supports were buying no items except wards and gp10 items and simply covering the map in vision. And, speaking as a support main, I do not want to go back to that time. Other than that one niche time, gold runes were a BAD CHOICE - you were better off doing almost anything else. So yes, gp10 runes WERE a trap.
: > [{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwAd5T7x,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-07-23T06:18:12.998+0000) > > Riiiiiight having the ability to heal, how much was it? Hold on... > > "Pyke also stores 30% − 81% (based on level) of the damage he takes from enemy champions as Grey Health on his health bar, up to 80 (+ 800% bonus AD), with an upper cap of 60% of his maximum health. > > When Pyke is unseen by enemies, he rapidly consumes his Grey Health to Heal power heal for the same amount." > > A lot....yeah that looks fine for an assassin. Not to mention his W let's him become invisible to proc it, run, and he has his E to run away. That's pretty damn safe looking to me. For an assassin that can't build HP (hence builds few resists) and doesn't have any kind of sustain in damaging abilities and doesn't build lifesteal? Yeah, that's fine. You have to think of his kit as a whole, not by picking just an ability or two. Pyke is a playmaker support with good CC and movement options, an execute that allows his team to gain a lot of gold because he can't support them by giving shields or heals or sapping damage, and with a great healing out of combat for when he trades; in exchange for that he gets popped in a single CC if people turn on their brain and focus him (it's not like you need an entire team like a tank, you just have to fire a spell rotation on him the moment he gets CC'd), can't go the tanky route if behind, has to put himself at potential risk if he wants to land all of his abilities. To counter Pyke other than with armor and hp, heals shut down his execute, and shields have to be cast BEFORE you enter his Ult execute dmg (a lot of people tend to cast shields at the last moment, dying anyway). People arguing "ofc but you are stunlocked in the meanwhile/you're not only against him", if he hits you with every ability he deserves to kill you (if fed or if his team deals enough dmg to you, because he usuaally can't), and he's not the only one with a team. If your team is playing poorly by not bodyblocking for you, not displacing him when he wants to stun, not reduce his health etc., it's not Pyke's fault. People on the Boards complain way too much without thinking of proper counterplay, they want everything to go the easy way. If Pyke annoys you this much, just ban him, but it's not because he's unbeatable, but because you don't want to play around his weaknesses, so don't come at me with "iF bAnNiNg HiM iS tHe oNlY sOlUtIoN...".
Full stop: Pyke is a broken champion. A stealth champ with near-infinite sustain, multiple mobility tools, a hook, and insane damage is not a healthy design. There is no way to make this champ balanced. He will always be broken... because he has no weakness. Try to gank him? Nope, he escapes with his numerous mobility tools. Try to poke him? Nope, he refills most of the hp you poke him for. Try to fight him? Nope, he does more damage than almost any other support... and has as much cc as any save maybe like Leona or Alistar. Try to just out-sustain him? Nope, eventually he'll hit some form of cc and then burst you to nothing because again, he does more damage than most supports. Oh... and when he eventually does get that one kill, it's worth twice as much gold because of his stupid gold-sharing passive. He is literally all strengths. Oh no, he can't build health... but he has some of the highest base stats in the game so it doesn't really matter. The champ is a stupid design. People complain about Yasuo a lot, but Pyke is the WORST design Riot's ever built, by a large margin.
: Dont. Buff. Pyke.
Pyke ALWAYS needs nerfs. Even if he has a 0% play rate... I'd still say nerf the bugger.
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Eleshakai

Level 105 (NA)
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