: The publisher, the shareholders don't really mess around with the intricacies of design, that is true. But what they care about is income, and that mindset is delivered top - down in a company through a chain-of-command hierarchy, that's how corps work. The work environment of riot is not a playground. Developers have to conform their creativity and priorities to suit the overarching mindset of creating a game ripe for mass consumption that panders to the maximum amount of people possible. That's a reality in corporate affairs, I don't understand why we have to go so far to establish that. That's why we see, with a lot of champion releases nowadays, design concepts from their early stages that were much more interesting and unique while the end product ends up looking more neutered and digestible (Kai'sa is a good example). That's not a corporate capitalist literally breathing down the neck of the designer telling them what to do, however the developing teams have tο consider addressing those game issues that are "hotter" from a perspective of popularity because they impact a greater amount of customers. Balance and game designers I'm sure, always have to get their designs approved by their direct superiors before they start to implement them. And of course, while time constraint may well be the #1 problem of development cycles, it is but one of the hurdles designers have to face before their creations see the light of day.
Replying here because chain is done, and this will be my last reply since I'll have said everything I intend to: I'm not saying that publishers just leave everything alone, but... there are certain areas where most publishers recognize their hand will do more harm than good. Like game balance. I'm sure the publishers have a lot of say on things like skin development, and promo material(which includes the loot events, btw), etc... but they are generally smart enough to know that they DON'T know how to design a game or balance a competitive game... and thus they're smart enough to be hands off, because if they stick their hands into it, they'll just mess it up and cost themselves money. These companies WANT TO MAKE MONEY. As a result, they don't want to ruin the games they have a stake in. And from everything I've seen and heard from people I've had interactions with, there is no indication that MOST publishers are stupid enough to think they know how to make a game.
: The publisher, the shareholders don't really mess around with the intricacies of design, that is true. But what they care about is income, and that mindset is delivered top - down in a company through a chain-of-command hierarchy, that's how corps work. The work environment of riot is not a playground. Developers have to conform their creativity and priorities to suit the overarching mindset of creating a game ripe for mass consumption that panders to the maximum amount of people possible. That's a reality in corporate affairs, I don't understand why we have to go so far to establish that. That's why we see, with a lot of champion releases nowadays, design concepts from their early stages that were much more interesting and unique while the end product ends up looking more neutered and digestible (Kai'sa is a good example). That's not a corporate capitalist literally breathing down the neck of the designer telling them what to do, however the developing teams have tο consider addressing those game issues that are "hotter" from a perspective of popularity because they impact a greater amount of customers. Balance and game designers I'm sure, always have to get their designs approved by their direct superiors before they start to implement them. And of course, while time constraint may well be the #1 problem of development cycles, it is but one of the hurdles designers have to face before their creations see the light of day.
Uh... what you describe sounds nothing like what I've heard from the developers I've had the chance to talk to. What you describe is literally assuming the worst about game design, which is what twitter and reddit would love people to believe about how these things work, but doesn't line up with any of the first and second hand accounts I've heard. No offense... but you really need to stop talking about things you don't understand. You're just propagating a negative image you have no actual evidence of that serves to do nothing but increase the unnecessary hate directed towards developers. Please stop.
: So they should just leave the game in a shitty state because fixing it is hard or people might try to game the system (which people do regardless)? If you're fine with that you're playing the game you deserve to play man. I donno if you are just too young to remember when quality products were actually made or what the problem is. My grandparents refrigerator lasted 50 years, cars that were build 60 years ago will outlive most of the cars built today, because people aren't willing to stand up and say no, there's a better way. This seems to just as true of gamers today as consumers of any other product. Perhaps its because you are too young to have seen a time when things made to a level of quality far beyond anything today, and that is truly crime in and of itself.
What you're missing is that what you describe is NOT A BETTER STATE OF BEING. It would be a miserable state of being where nobody actually pl;ayed the game and everyone just tried to get the 'best possible stats' out of it. The only possible way this would work - the literal only way it would work - is if they created a full artificial intelligence - you know, the sci fi kind that are literally capable of imitating humans - so that this computer system could accurately measure human contribution and thought processes. But, put bluntly, if they had people who were capable of making that, I can think of much better places for them to apply it than a video game. So, it's not a matter of me thinking they should 'leave the game in a shitty state' it's me thinking the game ISN'T in a shitty state and your suggestion would PUT IT in a shitty state. So I would rather they work on taking it from the decent state its in now and making it better rather than implementing an AWFUL idea that would have NO POSITIVE IMPACT on the game.
: So we're left with that Xerath and Ziggs actually need a buff/QoL change. Because Xerath also has a stun and a slow. And Ziggs has a knockback as well as a slow. Their terrible state leaves only the right tweaks to be desired. Maybe all the developers you've interacted with are good faith actors but that is beside the point. Developers have to, at the end of the day, answer to their employers who in turn have to answer to their shareholders. And guess what those care about. It's not quality, it's not creativity, it's what sells. It is utterly naive to assume that Riot's creative and balance teams will prioritize things only on the basis of good faith and balance. If they did, the champions I listed well above would have already been looked at. Developers may want to give us the best game they can but I think there are enough examples in the gaming industry that prove fair intentions on their part is definitely not the deciding factor of a game's end quality. I'm sure the developers behind Fallout 76, No Gamer's Sky, Anthem, FIFA would much rather have given us wholesome games. But we got scammed instead.
It is utterly ridiculous to assume that a smart publisher is going to meddle in the affairs of a dev team like that. Put simply, they're smart enough to know that the dev team knows how to make the game. That's why they hired them. It's like if you hire an artist to paint a picture of you, you don't tell them which techniques to use or what paintbrush to use. Publishers don't micromanage devs like that. They lack the knowledge, training, and skills to do so. So they don't. I will say that sometimes publishers set deadlines that are unrealistic for games release, which is what leads to things like Anthem and Fallout 76. It's not that they told them what to do, it's that they didn't give them adequate time to do it.
: Riot is a company right? Any change they make to the state of the game is mediated by its financial sustainability. Otherwise they'd just ignore complaints and leave the game as is. The only reason they keep changing up stuff is bcs they want to ensure the game will continuously make profit. Changes that might impact a bigger playerbase will naturally be put into greater consideration. There are low-mobility mages that are actually really strong, Syndra, Taliyah, Swain, Viktor, Lux, Karthus, Vel'koz. That denominator doesn't mean a champ's going to be bad. Mages are the strongest class overall and they sport a multitude of low mobility characters. Xerath and Ziggs are in fact outliers when it comes to mages. In fact there isn't much of a difference between what a Xerath/Ziggs' kit can do and what a Vel'koz/Syndra can do but they take more skill. Their kits are very similar. Their damage numbers aren't in fact huge. What makes them seem strong is every bad laner that refuses to buy a hexdrinker item into them. And their problems could be fixed with minor kit updates that would allow for a bit more safety through their cc abilities. Nocturne having no counterplay is not a thing. Even when he was good he was not as oppressive as a Karthus. The problem was his damage was too high and no considerable effort was put into making follow-up adjustments after his nerfs that would put him in a semi-decent spot.
If you think that the people in charge of balancing the game look at the financials before making changes, you have no understanding of how game development works. Developers work on the game because they WANT THE GAME TO BE GOOD. That is why they make balance changes. That is why they continue to work on it. The company chooses to employ those developers because the game continues to make money, yes, but it is utterly cynical to assume that Tencent goes into balance meetings and says 'hey guys, we need this champ to be strong because it makes money' . Not only would that lead to an awful game, but it would probably lead to a lot of devs quitting because every developer I've ever spoken to at any company SINCERELY wants to make the best game they can. Syndra is good because she has an instant knock-back and extremely fast burst, allowing her to somewhat handle assassins. Swain and Viktor are VERY tanky. Taliyah has global presence. Lux is mostly played as support. Karthus is beneficial post-death(so killing him isn't really effective). Vel'koz's damage is so high that it is sometimes worth picking him. Vel'koz's damage is so high that it crosses into the threshold I talked about before: so high it overcomes the risk of playing. Honestly, if Assassins and Divers weren't so strong, vel'koz would probably need a nerf.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lFLAfMsJ,comment-id=000c00000001,timestamp=2019-07-13T22:25:02.739+0000) > > As of the last published numbers ( https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/VyEXF18K-quick-gameplay-thoughts-march-20) ), Support still held the global lowest play rate by a significant margin, and nearly every region had support as the lowest played. In NA, support was within about 0.5% playrate of jungle, but was technically second least played, even if only by a virtually non-existent margin. > > The fun one is Vietnam where support is actually lower than fill. lol This is 4 months old though, I'd love to see it now after the jungle changes. Not to mention we have to remove iron/bronze because most of them still have the old mentality that support is a ward bot.
It is, but we have no numbers since then, so any assertions we make are uneducated guesses. And, I'd rather make an educated guess based off of old data, than an uneducated guess based off of 'personal feelings'. *shrugs*
: Sounds like an excuse for not putting in the work. You secretly a Riot dev lols?
No, I just understand that you need measurables if you're going to get a computer to deal with something. Computers can't run on vague terms like 'teamwork', so you can't build a system to measure it. Or 'good judgement', again, not measurable by a computer. Essentially what you're asking for would turn into kda + vision score + cs = ranking(since those are the measurable elements)... which, as I'm sure even you have to agree, is not an accurate measure of your impact on a game.
Midg3t (EUNE)
: Either im imagining things or Riot just said that wintrading is okay xD
Every PR person screws up once in a while, the important part is that they responded correcting the typo. *shrugs*
: pykes excute has to be the worst designed excute in the game
Pyke is also the worst designed champ in the game, with the possible exception of Tahm Kench... so I guess it makes sense his execute would be poorly designed.
: > [{quoted}](name=Infernape,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lFLAfMsJ,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-07-13T14:14:03.708+0000) > > Laughs in support main. I still love how playing support removes autofilled when support isn't even the least picked role.
As of the last published numbers ( https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/VyEXF18K-quick-gameplay-thoughts-march-20) ), Support still held the global lowest play rate by a significant margin, and nearly every region had support as the lowest played. In NA, support was within about 0.5% playrate of jungle, but was technically second least played, even if only by a virtually non-existent margin. The fun one is Vietnam where support is actually lower than fill. lol
: Why is autofill even a thing for ranked games? You obviously want to play the best you can, therefore you want to play the role (or roles) that you're most comfortable in and the one you're more likely to be able to carry with. Normals autofill makes sense, in Ranked it should be opt in or out for autofill. Queue timers would probably be longer but at least you'd have to worry about normal inting and not inting because they didn't get their role.
Riot has stated that in internal simulations, queue times were literally dozens of times longer without autofill, sometimes even exceeding 50 minutes estimated for some roles.
Yenn (NA)
: I've gone 14 consecutive games without getting my primary role. This is not acceptable.
I thought they said at one point that dodging an auto-fill game means you're likely to auto-fill again next game...
: I don't think these kinds of champs (kind is used pretty arbitrarily here) are inherently set to be harder to balance than more modern champs. For starters, let's call them gutter champs. So, there are many and different kinds of problems when it comes to why gutter champs aren't or can't be viable. Something like e.g. Volibear is a champ that is pretty much obsolete on all fronts. His aesthetics don't make sense anymore and his game style is not viable in this meta off keep-away mobility and cc which is here to stay. If you had to buff voli to the point of viability then yes, you would have to make him super oppressive in lane and disgustingly tanky later on. But, something like Nocturne on the other hand was pretty good a few patches ago without being super oppressive or broken, at least not in the way the Irelias and Akalis were at the same time. He was a meta jungler and his kit and meta allowed for it, with help from his numbers that were nerfed afterwards. Ziggs is another example. He has a more potent kit than a lot of mages, but riot's refusal to tweak his numbers in the right way keeps him in trash tier. IMO sometimes there's a good gameplay reason for champs to remain untouched for so long (Volibear, Fiddle), but in some other cases I think the reason is mainly financial (Xerath, Ziggs, Noc).
I do not at ALL think Riot makes balance changes for financial reasons. Literally 0% chance of that in my eyes. I think you're just underestimating how powerful low-mobility mages would have to be in order to be meta in a world where Zed/Yasuo/Ahri/Qiyana/Pyke/etc exist. I don't think that Ziggs/Xerath/etc. are much underpowered. Their damage numbers are huge. They just have no answer to the meta of assassins, hook champs, and divers that is prevalent right now... so they can't be played at high tier without becoming fodder. As a result, they either have to nerf ALL the assassins, hook champs, and divers(which I'm honestly somewhat okay with... but I doubt they're going to do) OR they need to VASTLY overbuff these long-range aoe mages. As far as Nocturne goes... if he gets strong, the game basically becomes 'at 6, someone dies without warning', which feels HORRIBLE for the enemy team. When Nocturne is strong, the enemy team has literally 0 agency. Once he hits level 6, someone dies. Full stop. There's nothing you can do about that if Nocturne is strong. He has a spellshield, a dive that goes over a screen, he stops teleports and targeted global ults(like Shen), etc. If he's strong, he makes the game HORRIBLE to play for the enemy team. He just... kills someone. Without outplay potential(because his damage is all autoattacks and not many champs can block those - and Shen certainly isn't going to be his target), the ability for allies to help(since they can't see anyways), the ability to escape(his trail gives him enormous move speed, and his fear tether will stop you from running away anyways), the ability to cc him(spellshield), or really the ability to fight back(since it's going to be 2v1 or 3v2, with Nocturne getting a significant burst of damage to start it off from his ult).
HeeroTX (NA)
: If... IF, I honestly believed NA solo-q had good teamwork even 50% of the time I'd agree with you, but definitely in lower elo you're talking 10% at BEST. I've long thought the ladder should be solo points to get to either Gold or Plat and then team based from then on. But at bare minimum, below plat it's all fiesta as far as teamwork goes. And a few seasons ago, that was WELL ESTABLISHED, the standard advice was (is?) "turn off your chat, git gud and HARD CARRY", so clearly at least 85% of the playerbase (all ranked players below plat) either don't care about teamwork, or absolutely, positively, frustratingly SUCK AT IT. It should also be noted, that Riot has slowly been killing "teamwork" THEMSELVES, just by other means, namely: hard nerfing vision, all but removing tanks (a team oriented class), nerfing most utility supports, etc.; the game as it exists right now is mainly: 1v1 top lane, explosive junglers, explosive burst mids, insane damage bot-laner and burst mage supports, it's all predicated on how quickly can you get 1 or more guy snowballing. Which is the biggest issue people have had with the game lately, it's not "how can I help my TEAM win" it's "who's going to make their team LOSE". EDIT: also, it'd be fairly easy to do a "hybrid" approach, something like: 20 LP is the "base" gain, you get +/-10 for a Win/Loss, and then anywhere from -15 to +15 points for personal performance (the extra 5 pt swing being extreme performance ie: troll level bad or smurf level good, so in a "normal" game it's a -10 to +10 range) Then, if you play well, but the team loses, maybe you get -10 pts (for loss) and +8 (for skill) and only see a net loss of -2 LP, then you have a win where you play well maybe account for +17, and a game you win but you suck maybe only giving +5, etc.
No, Riot has been increasing player agency. Teamwork is still essential, because even the most fed player probably can't COMPLETELY 1v9. It's funny, because the 'whose going to make their team lose' is literally also saying 'who on our team is going to win' - they are literally two sides of the same coin. People are just naturally pessimistic and are seeing the negative side of it. They don't see their own top-laner as having outplayed the enemy top-laner, they see the enemy top-laner as having fed their top-laner. It's a ridiculous attitude and a silly argument, and the fact that you share it explains to me PERFECTLY why you think performance-based rank would work. (also... many of the top win-rate supports are enchanters, tanks, or defensive mages... Taric, Nami, Lux, Karma, Janna, Sona, Tahm Kench, etc.... all on the high end of average in winrate)
: Agree and I comprehend the reality behind the VGU mindset and the prioritizing of cash-cow-champs. But stating that it's annoying and unfair is also an obvious thing. Even if it's not as profitable for Riot to release skins for scheduled VGUs or champs that will someday somehow be overhauled, they could at least get a single skin out or show that they care about the champs in some sort of way, some balance change, some move that is in good faith, since they are too slow in updating their old champions seeing as how this year they went back to focusing on new releases which was a bad move imo. And it's not like there aren't hundreds or thousands of mains for less popular champs that would pay for their cosmetics. I mean Noc is one thing, but other champs have it leagues worse. A moment of silence for Ziggs, Xerath, Quinn, Kog'maw, Skarner and all these other merry chaps I'm forgetting.
The thing is that they don't WANT a lot of these champs to be viable. Some of these champs need a redesign for exactly that reason - Rot can't make them strong without making them oppressive, so they WANT them to be on the lower end of the balance spectrum. That's why they're on the update list to begin with, in a lot of cases. Ya it sucks. But there are reasons...
HeeroTX (NA)
: I for one would VASTLY prefer this, considering: a) Trolls no longer affect my rank b) dc/afk no longer affect my rank c) Smurfs who are not IN MY LANE have minimal impact on my rank d) Players might not always give up at 10 - 15 mins (yeah, they don't always get the SURRENDER that they want, but they give up) e) Autofill is less of a factor And most importantly, because people have been throwing this idiotic canard out for YEARS f) **Ranked games are ALREADY full of morons that don't care about objectives or the win and chase KDA ANYWAY**
Bear in mind, this type of change would COMPLETELY scare off any players who actually care about teamwork because being a team player would no longer be a valuable skill in this game(since it can't really be measured by an automated system). So... say goodbye to anyone ever being willing to take the backseat for the team. Nope, that's now detrimental for you as a player. The meta would probably shift further towards damage, since it's hard to measure effectiveness of things outside of KDA. You think you'd prefer it. But I assure you... it wouldn't work out the way you're thinking. Not gonna waste much time trying to convince you though. Just... it wouldn't work.
: It's pretty simple. You have a ranked system like Apex. You get points for kills, but only up to 5 kills (so no point in prolonging a game), and point for how well you did relative to everyone else in the game, regardless of win/loss, and points for winning. Ez pz. The higher you go, the more entry points you need to get into a ranked game, so no more hardcarrying your friends since they can't afford the entry cost to higher elo games so everyone is about where they should be, and lastly since everything is about the points, ranking up happens relatively quickly so less rage about the slow ass progress like league. Also since you get points based on your performance, no more rage over wasting half an hour on a loss because your teammates were a bunch cave people bashing their skulls on a keyboard. Good game design isn't hard, it just requires effort and giving a shit about your players.
"Ez Pz" - precisely how do you measure that stuff? It's easy to make a vague generalization of 'you get points for how well you did relative to others' - but most of that stuff is either a) Easily gameable or b) Impossible to accurately measure using an automated system.
: Oh I’m sorry, I forgot that adding 5 AD while on Q trail, 5 damage to Q, a slight missile speed buff to Q was a *significant buff.*. Oh his W can now be used anytime during paranoia and last till he lands? Well he already could cast it during his flight, that was just QoL. Paranoia reactivation time up from 4-6 seconds? Wowee boy am I glad that Nocturne is 2 seconds stronger. Do sure wonder what I’ll be doing the other 144 seconds while his ult is on cooldown. Ah yes, also way before that his E got an increase in cc duration by 0.25 seconds. And his passive having a 0.15 AP ratio is going to be amazing. Oh wait, now we’ve gone so far back, might as well mention the *two* other buffs he received before that ever since his creation. 1) his ultimate lost 30 seconds off its cooldown at rank 1 in early season 5 and 2) he got movement speed towards feared units in season 4. But boy do I fucking find it hilarious that you manage to ignore the fact that all of his items were nerfed or removed. You know his ult buff? It was given because he was way underperforming and was legitimately garbage. Shortly after Riot releases the initial stormrazor and duskblade was buffed. Imagine the world’s surprise when Nocturne is able to take advantage of this combo. Boom he gets his ult nerfed back. But oh wait, since we here are very fucking smart, we forget that immediately after that nerf stormrazor and all crit itemization is reworked. You can count the number of buffs he’s received since he was created on *two fucking hands.* And you tell me “he got a buff on every skill except E.” Heck, take back that bonus 5 damage and 5 AD on Q. It might as well not exist. Same goes for that 0.15 AP ratio and a slightly increased missile speed on his Q doesn’t do shit. Off and on topic, did I mention his last skin was released April of 2016? It appears it’s been 3 years and 3 months since he’s had a new skin. Hmmm seems like Riot cares a lot about his fanbase eh? TL;DR: he’s had 10 buffs total since he even became a champion back in season 1, March 15, 2011. It has been EIGHT AND HALF FUCKING YEARS. And he has recieved TEN BUFFS, a significant portion of which were zero power buffs or QoL. 5 damage. 5 AD on trail. 2 seconds. 0.15 AP scaling. Use your fucking brain and stop spouting bullshit. Several of his bugs took years to fix and several are still here. So sit your ass down before you speak up without actually reading or knowing shit. “Hyperbole” my ass. I guess it’s hard for an ADC main like yourself to have a semblance of objectivity. While your champions receive 10 base ad buffs in the name of an adc rework, you sit there happily with your thumb up your ass calling bullshit on someone pointing out how Nocturne has a 47% winrate and might as well not have received any buffs; as what they’ve given they’ve taken twofold. Your kind is just worried that nocturne will be semiviable. You tremble at the thought that a non adc champion will be playable, that a nocturne might actually be able to jump on you and fight you when you’re shoved all by yourself... AND WIN. The audacity of it all! If a 3/0 Nocturne with levels up on you jumps you, he should of course lose hands down. Otherwise there’s no counterplay besides not inting, and that wouldn’t be fun now would it? So cut the bs and say it like it is. You see “Akali” and “Nocturne” in a comment, comment appears to not be hating on these champions? *HOW DARE HE THINK THESE CHAMPIONS WERE MISTREATED AND NEGLECTED THEY ARE ANNOYING AND AND THEY CAN KILL ME.* And then you downvote said comment because how dare anyone entertain the thought of allowing these champions to be playable or on par with your 52%-53% _average_ winrate with high pickrate adcs ~~(and let’s ignore that Nocturne has a 1.5% pickrate while still having a 47% winrate, meaning his mains cannot even get him to work)~~
I don't want to be rude or dismissive, but 5 AD is a pretty significant buff. I don't necessarily think Nocturne's in a healthy place right now, but claiming that's not a decent buff is factually wrong. Now, he's slated for a VGU, which is why he doesn't get touched much... but...
: The only way the game could become less toxic would be to revamp the entire ranking system so that you are not punished for having bad/outclassed teammates.
I love how you think a performance based rank system would make things LESS toxic. As people start intentionally prolonging games to get a better KDA, throwing teammates under the bus because losing a game is now a BETTER outcome for you personally than having bad stats, etc. If you think people wouldn't learn how to game the system to get points without needing to care about winning within a week, you know nothing about people.
MaFyO2154 (EUW)
: the game would be less toxic if the game would be more enjoyable
(I think it's the other way around... the game would be more enjoyable if people were less toxic)
OoAgentP (NA)
: Prestige Points to craft Gem Stones
There definitely needs to be SOMETHING to spend these points on in quantities fewer than 100. Be it chest/key sets, gemstones, whatever.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=nmbV2k6L,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-07-10T19:02:13.298+0000) > > Every season is the worst season to the people playing it. "this season is the worst every person buying the same trinity / atmas/ frozen mallet / warmogs / randuins every game" "this season is the worst everyone just buys 4-5 black cleavers" "this season is the worst every game is smite + tp cinderhulk tops running over everyone" "this season is the worst games are decided by which jungler afk farms the hardest before 1v5ing" "this season is the worst entire game dedicated to ardent censor and defending the adc" I think every single class, role, champion, and item has spent time as the "least fun" at this point.
> [{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=nmbV2k6L,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-07-10T21:05:55.613+0000) > > "this season is the worst every person buying the same trinity / atmas/ frozen mallet / warmogs / randuins every game" > > "this season is the worst everyone just buys 4-5 black cleavers" > > "this season is the worst every game is smite + tp cinderhulk tops running over everyone" > > "this season is the worst games are decided by which jungler afk farms the hardest before 1v5ing" > > "this season is the worst entire game dedicated to ardent censor and defending the adc" > > I think every single class, role, champion, and item has spent time as the "least fun" at this point. Yep. Don't forget 'this season is the worst due to the broken juggernaut reworks', 'this season is the worst because of mids abusing the ap jungle item', 'this season is the worst because ADC are dead', 'this season is the worst because of tank meta'... I've been watching these types of 'this season is the worst due to ' for essentially a decade. And every time people think they're posting some sort of revelation. The reality is that every single season is going to be the 'worst' to some of the population. And it's going to be the 'best' to another segment of the population. *shrugs* It is what it is.
: I'd like to know the thought process behind those people that downvoted. Like, Noc has been ignored for way too long, that's fact. And the fact he'll be getting a VGU doesn't help any. For one, his VGU will be AFTER Voli and Fiddle so more than a year off, not that we know for sure it's going to be after these two. Secondly, just because a champ is "scheduled" for VGU doesn't mean they don't need attention. Like, Noc was really viable 10 patches ago and he still got jack shit.
The problem is that if they do skins for him NOW it just makes the VGU harder, since it adds to the number of skins they have to change when the VGU comes. So champs slated for full redesigns like that tend to get ignored since its just the logical use of dev time. Ya its not the best news for people who love the champ, and I get that totally... but development is all about trade-offs, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend dev/artist time now that is just going to force you to spend more later. Especially since Noct isn't that popular a champ to begin with, so it's not like that dev/artist time is going to have much of a financial turnaround either.
: Tahm kench mains didn't ask to be shoved into toplane, not with the current power shift in his kit, back when he was first released primarily as a solo laner he was meant to actually stall the game as much as possible in order to get his points into his R (where his damage used to come from) Now tahm gets that damage early game but he was also turned back into a solo laner….he has the same kit except for a lot more damage early game and almost nothing late game which is why he is so oppressive in lane. Seriously, he was DESIGNED to be as annoying as possible / be functional without being able to deal damage, he was never intended to be a lane winner/bully, he was the exact opposite, if not, a counter to them. We didn't ask for this, we didn't want this, even if this is the strongest tahm has ever been in years.
He's a badly designed champ and they don't know what to do with him because what they really NEED to do is get rid of one of his two ult-strength skills entirely(devour or teleport) make the other his ult, and replace the one they remove with a more reasonable power level ability for a standard non-ult spell.... but they can't do that because Tahm mains would flip... so they're trying to find a home for him where he's not busted, and it's not possible because, to come full circle, he's JUST A BADLY DESIGNED CHAMP.
: Nothing feels worse than loving a champion who isn't on Riot's favorite list
As someone who loves a lot of champs not on Riot's "favourite list"(as if such a thing really existed)... I can still think of a lot of things worse than that.
kile147 (NA)
: I feel like we should give benefit of the doubt here and just assume that he got the joke but was trying to provide context for why such a silly change was made.
Yep, I'd assume so. He was probably thinking 'well, this is clearly a joke, but just in case someone misses the context... I'd better post the reasoning'
: It sucks we can't have the old league back...
Every season is the worst season to the people playing it.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6vXArGnp,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2019-07-10T17:39:45.977+0000) > > Exactly. It's the same thing they did to Akali a few patches back. They nerfed the part of her kit that pros were able to abuse hard so that they could reduce presence in pro a bit but not make Joe Gold-player or Sally Platinum-player feel worse about the champ. But at the same time intensifying what is frustrating when fighting this champ - the fact she is untargetable.. I do not believe this is a very healthy change for her. maybe healthy for pro play, definitely not healthy for low elo.
Not saying it's a perfect change, but the intent is right, and it's hard to judge the actual impact until we see it in action.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6vXArGnp,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-10T14:16:38.345+0000) > > Here's the reasoning: > > Yuumi is REALLY strong in pro but not so strong at lower ELOs. Since she meets their criteria for a nerf based off of her pro presence, she needs a nerf. But they don't want to hit her in ways that make low-skill Yuumis weaker. So they took a look at the difference between a really good Yuumi and a mediocre Yuumi... and yup! You guessed it. The main difference is that top tier Yuumis get full value out of their passive, while mediocre Yuumis don't. So.... by reducing the power of the passive, they can make top tier Yuumis a bit weaker without having a huge impact on the less skilled ones. That's actually a very logical explanation. i still hate it though. It is essentially a buff to low elo and nerf to pro, by this theory...
Exactly. It's the same thing they did to Akali a few patches back. They nerfed the part of her kit that pros were able to abuse hard so that they could reduce presence in pro a bit but not make Joe Gold-player or Sally Platinum-player feel worse about the champ.
: > [{quoted}](name=Onerios,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEsnGp0Z,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-10T11:33:00.973+0000) > > The change feels like it's trying to be a power flattening one, as higher skilled players are more likely to detach at appropriate times to get resources back while poorer players either detach at the wrong time and get killed/heavily damaged or don't detach at all and can't use the power it brings. The style of change is probably needed given how her winrate curve seems to be, so is there anywhere else on her kit that a similar change could be done? I feel like having the curve as it isn't the end of the world, to be honest. She's a high skill cap champion; people who hop off at good times *should be rewarded* while people who are only using part of her kit and never unattaching *should be punished and should not be allowed to win for playing their champion incorrectly.* There are plenty of champions with similar curves.
She has pretty close to 100% presence in pro. Which means she needs to be nerfed. But she's also not OP in lower tiers, which means the delta is too high. If she's at near 100% presence in pro while being borderline too weak at lower tiers of skill, then she needs to have the gap between pro and normal lowered so that she can eventually hit a balanced state.
: > [{quoted}](name=ALumpyLion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=s2a5eEiz,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-09T21:43:48.647+0000) > > * Getting full build fast in the jungle/lane was great for trying new item combinations and champions > > * Double jungle made jungle variability much more diverse, giving slow/previously unviable champs some help These were absolutely the most key points which made Nexus Blitz so successful in my eyes. We haven't had a game mode with such variety in team comps since Dominion, which had its own host of problems.
> [{quoted}](name=Paletongue,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=s2a5eEiz,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-07-10T14:12:03.238+0000) > > These were absolutely the most key points which made Nexus Blitz so successful in my eyes. We haven't had a game mode with such variety in team comps since Dominion, which had its own host of problems. Zyra jungle in NB was so much fun.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: Why are you doing this to yuumi?
Here's the reasoning: Yuumi is REALLY strong in pro but not so strong at lower ELOs. Since she meets their criteria for a nerf based off of her pro presence, she needs a nerf. But they don't want to hit her in ways that make low-skill Yuumis weaker. So they took a look at the difference between a really good Yuumi and a mediocre Yuumi... and yup! You guessed it. The main difference is that top tier Yuumis get full value out of their passive, while mediocre Yuumis don't. So.... by reducing the power of the passive, they can make top tier Yuumis a bit weaker without having a huge impact on the less skilled ones.
Lapis (OCE)
: Bop and Block nerfs, this is how you get AFK Yuumis
The intent with this is obviously to reduce the delta between top tier Yuumi and low skill Yuumi, since she is MORE overpowered at high skill than low skill. This is why they didn't just nerf her abilities... any of those changes would equally affect all Yuumis.. when what they wanted was to make it so top tier Yuumi were a little less insanely strong.
: Things I felt Nexus blitz got right
Things Nexus Blitz got right: Nexus Blitz. I miss it so.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tahngarthor,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EnukEGpm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-09T16:18:24.897+0000) > > Oh look, it's another one of these. > > The difficulty is here is sometimes poor play looks like "inting." (a term btw that is being heavily misused as it is sh orthand for "Intentionally" and most of the examples i've seen provided in posts like this don't look intentional to me). Riot is not going to punish people for being bad, plain and simple > > Second, "trolling" is subjective as well. Unless it's something really stupid like buying nothing but daggers or something liike that, it's hard to prove. They could just have had an unusual champion (or combo) that worked well (for at least one game) and just because you dont think that c hamp should be in that position, doesn't mean you're not going to be able to win. People have found good unexpected uses for many champions in the game. > > Point is, it isn't trivial to prove these cases except for the super obvious blatant cases where someone flat out says they don't care and is clearly trying to ruin your game and not even pretend to try to contribute in any way whatsoever, whether successful or not. So what about AFKers who you report yet you never get the instant feedback message about them being punished? or the people who go 2-25 in your game saying "have fun nerds" :)
> [{quoted}](name=CandyMaiden,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EnukEGpm,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-07-10T04:34:17.792+0000) > > So what about AFKers who you report yet you never get the instant feedback message about them being punished? or the people who go 2-25 in your game saying "have fun nerds" :) 1) Instant feedback reports are rare. They're meant to be. You only get instant feedback reports on a small percentage of the people who are punished that you report. 2) People do not get punished for one occurrence of almost ANYTHING. Riot's system is designed to detect patterns. If a person does something stupid once, they won't get punished in 99.999999% of cases... with the exception of things like racism/death threats/other zero-tolerance terms.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tahngarthor,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EnukEGpm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-09T16:18:24.897+0000) > > Oh look, it's another one of these. > > The difficulty is here is sometimes poor play looks like "inting." (a term btw that is being heavily misused as it is sh orthand for "Intentionally" and most of the examples i've seen provided in posts like this don't look intentional to me). Riot is not going to punish people for being bad, plain and simple > > Second, "trolling" is subjective as well. Unless it's something really stupid like buying nothing but daggers or something liike that, it's hard to prove. They could just have had an unusual champion (or combo) that worked well (for at least one game) and just because you dont think that c hamp should be in that position, doesn't mean you're not going to be able to win. People have found good unexpected uses for many champions in the game. > > Point is, it isn't trivial to prove these cases except for the super obvious blatant cases where someone flat out says they don't care and is clearly trying to ruin your game and not even pretend to try to contribute in any way whatsoever, whether successful or not. it can be super obvious and blatant if you watch vods of the game instead of just waiting for bots to catch even more obvious cases like you gave examples of
> [{quoted}](name=ThisName1,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EnukEGpm,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-09T16:43:23.733+0000) > > it can be super obvious and blatant if you watch vods of the game instead of just waiting for bots to catch even more obvious cases like you gave examples of Ah the 'just watch the VODs' idea again... Do you know how many games have people getting reported for trolling a day? My conservative estimate is probably at least 30 thousand. Do you think Riot is so rich they can afford to hire tens of thousands of people to do NOTHING all day but watch every game someone gets reported for trolling in to see if its legitimate? They have a lot of money, but not that much. That being said, I would lay odds that literally 90% of the people you think are 'obviously trolling' are trying their best but just playing badly. Possibly even 95%.
Suh Shi (NA)
: Shaco in desperate need of some changes/buffs/rework
They should just... uh... get rid of every part of Shaco's kit. Then build a new kit that isn't inherently AWFUL. Nothing about his kit is both interesting and healthy.
DalekZec (EUNE)
: I can't blame people being toxic anymore
I.... ya know what, no. Your OP makes no sense at all but I'm just going to turn around and walk away.
: Blitz breaking shields in 1.14
Just ban Blitz. Everyone with any sense hates him anyways.
: It's very rare that i leave my games but sometimes it extremely justified.
Welp, you're eventually going to get punished for it. Because the rules do not have an 'I'm not having fun so I'm going to leave' clause.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sHjbwHgA,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-07T23:45:21.988+0000) > > There're enough champs I *like* playing that I was willing to sacrifice not playing a few that I know NOBODY likes in order to get a more fun experience overall. completely subjective. i honestly don't mind lux herself that much. it only gets annoying when they get a genuine solid poke teamcomp and yours doesn't get a comp that can compete with it. I've seen plenty of full poke comps crumble under enemy all in comps because they didn't have atleast some form of frontliner/disengage to fall back on. > Giving us bans then removing them has made ARAM intolerable to play. We didn't realize how bad we had it until they gave us paradise, then took it away and left us with only the garbage that is 'ARAM with no bans'. you're overreacting. the bans at best just gave you some form of placebo effect as they really didn't solve any genuine balance issues.
whoa whoa whoa - I never said Bans solved a balance issue. I don't care about BALANCE in ARAM. I care about fun. Bans solved FUN in ARAM by allowing people to individually remove one thing that made ARAM not fun for them. That's what they did. Full stop. That's ALL they did, but that was enough to make a huge improvement. If you don't mind lux that much... then don't ban her. *shrugs* I don't mind lux either. I, personally, mind Pyke. Both on my team and the enemy team. So I would usually ban Pyke. It didn't matter if Pyke was strong or not, he wasn't fun to play with or against for me, so I'd remove him from that being an option. If someone banned Pyke, then I'd probably ban Shaco or Teemo, because - again - I don't enjoy having them in the game on either side. It's not about making ARAM BALANCED. If you want balance, play Ranked. It's about making ARAM fun. Because ARAM is where I used to go to get away from perfectly balanced, stressful competition.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sHjbwHgA,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-07-05T15:28:33.856+0000) > > Blocking the one champ I didn't like seeing is what made it so much more fun. i mean sure i was glad not to deal with kog maw's stupid ass ult hitbox, but i'd like to get lux once in a while so it was really just a double edged blade.
There're enough champs I *like* playing that I was willing to sacrifice not playing a few that I know NOBODY likes in order to get a more fun experience overall. Giving us bans then removing them has made ARAM intolerable to play. We didn't realize how bad we had it until they gave us paradise, then took it away and left us with only the garbage that is 'ARAM with no bans'.
: reminder that they did absolutely nothing except for blocking one champ you don't like seeing and didn't change any problems aram had at all. in the end it just removed some of the most enjoyable champs on the map. Sure most people here on the boards complain about champs like lux, but even without aram they do that shit.
Blocking the one champ I didn't like seeing is what made it so much more fun.
Teh Song (NA)
: but, I mean, it's ARAM. Bans, no bans, why do you care? If you're playing ARAM with any level of victory vs defeat making a difference to you you shouldn't be playing ARAM, bans or not. It's a fun mode where you can try things you wouldn't want to test in norms, winning isn't part of the ARAM equation.
Because certain champions are simply not fun to play against in ARAM.
: i have personally had more struggles with the new client; lags if i dont restart lol efter 3hour, cant see friend´s champs, takes ages to restart league etc.
> [{quoted}](name=LittleDemonTrist,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=RRM7qlNY,comment-id=000800000001,timestamp=2019-07-03T22:11:41.813+0000) > > i have personally had more struggles with the new client; lags if i dont restart lol efter 3hour, cant see friend´s champs, takes ages to restart league etc. Nothing will ever be perfect for everyone, but I assure you 100% the new client has far fewer and far less severe issues than the old one did on a grand scale. I knew several people who quit the game because the old client would crash during updates requiring them to reinstall every patch. There were some people who just couldn't install the game at all due to odd compatibility issues with adobe air. Etc. etc. etc. While the new client has some.... quirks... that are less than pleasant to deal with... the old client was literally, factually broken. And you were lucky if you didn't experience issues because of it. Adobe Air is a lot like Windows Millenium. Ya, some people could run it just fine, but most people hated their life if they had to deal with it.
: Nerf Pyke
Pyke is so broken it even carries over into tft ;)
: Death Recap Update on PBE!
I feel like it could benefit from a 'last three sources of damage' spot. There are times where you die at the end of a fight after seemingly getting away and can't quite figure out what killed you, and the death recap should answer the question of 'I died to 'x'', in my eyes. Whether it's a burn, a stray ludon's proc, a minion hit you didn't see, or even just a trailing autoattack... being able to tell what it was that hit that final point of damage can sometimes be very valuable as a learning experience.
RietN7 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=RRM7qlNY,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-07-02T14:46:51.096+0000) > > Yes, lots of people did. The old client ran on adobe air, which was literally the most unstable platform in existence, and I'm pretty sure even adobe doesn't fully support it. It needed to go. Well, atleast the old adobe air client was more stable than the new one i didn't ask for
> [{quoted}](name=RietN7,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=RRM7qlNY,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2019-07-02T21:48:03.970+0000) > > Well, atleast the old adobe air client was more stable than the new one i didn't ask for it really really wasn't. You may have been in the 1% who didn't have issues with it, but there were many people who literally could not install the game because of the old client. It was a DISASTER. The new client has some annoyances, but NOTHING compared to the crap that the air client caused. Trust me on this. The new client's is kind of like Windows XP. Sure, it has its quirks, and it occasionally gets weird errors for no apparent reason... the old client was windows ME though and it barely ran at all.
: {{champion:53}} Blitz changes are honestly very stupid and dont solve anything. His W doesn't need to be changed and the new W doesn't do anything different besides having to waste time to ramp it up to engage but than you self morgana root yourself anyway. Wtf is that ult change? I pick blitz because he has the potential to snowball my team early game. This change contradicts blitzcranks identity.
Anything that makes people want to play blitz less is a positive.
: I like these changes. Swain is much burstier while still being obscuringly tanky Tahm got what he had coming Leona's powershift to her W is healthy, don't see any problems with it. Renekton's shield break won't last 3 patches. Irelia's bonus shield damage didn't last that long either before it was removed entirely. Ahri can make leblancs suffer once more. Yay. I hate the pyke changes. If he doesn't get the kill, he saccs in 2 kill's worth of gold. Basically no matter what you do, as long as you SOMEHOW contribute to killing you will get stupidly ahead. Akali buffs were much needed tbh. She IS the currently worst champ to play and only mains don't do the yasuo with her. Blitzcrank is mostly okay, but again, shieldbreak and for him its an AoE damnit. YES, NO MORE VIABLE SUPPORT LUX. And I love poppys grounding. Kled can finally out-duel his skill matchups with the heal reduce. RIP conqueror's yasuo. All in all, I see 9.14 as an absolute nightmare for Yasuo, Riven and Tahm kench players. Everything just serves to shit on them, maybe not particularily, but especially.
I don't think this is going to make lux not viable. But it's definitely going to be a hit to her power level, and I'm pretty sure shield max is going to be dead.
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Eleshakai

Level 94 (NA)
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