: So if you get that different roles serve different purposes regardless of their builds, what's your new definition of a tank?
I think that tank is the broadest form of the term. Much like how in the scenario, assassins refer to someone who does a lot of damage, tanks refer to a subset of champions that are generally durable. Subsets of tanks include the main classifications that we typically hear here. They are things like juggernauts, bruisers, most divers, etc..
Jbels (NA)
: [{quoted}](name=Elias1724,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=atEPp6uN,comment-id=000e00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-12T20:34:05.294+0000) >Awesome, you told me what you consider to be an assassin. Quite a vague definition definition for an assassin though, so you would probably have trouble being understood in certain arguments. It might be smart to come up with some subsets of what it means to be an assassin. > > Since an assassin, in this very exaggerated and hypothetical scenario, is someone who does a lot of damage, let's try to specify and create subsets of damage. > > Maybe champions who deal it really fast and are slippery, we can call the "strictly assassins." > > Maybe the ones that deal it over a sustained period of time we can call "marksman, skirmishers, or duelists." > > Maybe ones who deal damage from a long range we can call "artillery." > > Maybe ones who deal damage in the form relying heavily on abilities we can call "mages and casters." > Notice how some of these are not exclusive. You can be an artillery mage or an artillery caster in this very hypothetical scenario. You can also be a hybrid between a skirmisher and a mage in this scenario, according to the given criteria and definitions. Pfft, fuck that. They all do damage. Why would we need classifications to separate them into when we can just call all champions that do damage "Damage dealers"?
I'll let you answer that one yourself, considering it's in the very post which you replied too.
: can people stop saying that vayne has short range she doesnt her aa range is average
> [{quoted}](name=Purple Banana,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iZ7MG70x,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-01-01T14:03:32.169+0000) > > can people stop saying that vayne has short range > she doesnt her aa range is average What they should be saying is she lacks poke.
Thilmer (EUW)
: "Ezreal is still broken with several key masteries because the problem is Ezreal"
I honestly don't understand Riot's mentality in regards to Ezreal. Every single time something on-hit related got even to a decent state, Ezreal has abused it. It happened with Runeglaive, it recently happened with Duskblade, and now it's happening with Kleptomancy. I think there were also a few more things that were nerfed because of Ezreal in the past but I just don't know off the top of my head. If someone who remembers some items in past seasons that Ezreal has abused to the point of nerfs please let me know. Bottom line is, Ezreal's kit seriously needs to be looked at if he is constantly just going to be the spawn of nerfs. It's annoying to see the same pattern happen every season. Step 1: Ezreal finds synergy in something Step 2: Riot nerfs that something instead of the abuser of it Step 3: It hurts the other champions who use it more than the sole reason the nerf was called for, being Ezreal Kleptomancy would be perfectly fine if not for Ezreal, but instead Kleptomancy takes a hit because of him and hurts other champions who were nowhere near as strong with it, making them worse off despite being in a perfectly fine state.
: kitekitekitekitekitekitekitekitekitekitekite (as an adc main can confirm any adc that has half a brain on even footing with a nasus will kite him to oblivion and back and then some)
> [{quoted}](name=CrisisEchoes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ugoaf7ya,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-20T22:36:21.138+0000) > > kitekitekitekitekitekitekitekitekitekitekite (as an adc main can confirm any adc that has half a brain on even footing with a nasus will kite him to oblivion and back and then some) Depends on what ADC you are. Wither is no joke, especially considering that it also slows attack speed.
: 2 out of 3 Just Doesn't Cut It
I agree. I honestly never understood the whole "forced 50% win-rate" thing. If someone goes on a win-streak in a certain elo, I'd assume it's because they deserve to be winning. To punish them by putting them against much higher ranked teammates is counter intuitive. Does a silver 5 player not being able to beat a gold team somehow prove he doesn't deserve silver 4. Clearly they were winning quite a bit against Silver 4s, right? Just an example there, but it really does annoy me.
: > [{quoted}](name=Existential Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZRjjEgWL,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-07T17:44:22.484+0000) > > Although I'm all for item diversity, I would say that we shouldn't create another item since it's just a spiral. If we create this, then tanks will be weaker, thus needing another item to he created to negate your void grimoire. Instead I think they should apply the passive to a less used item. I don't see tanks being any weaker than they are now, even if they added this item exactly as it is into the game. The only difference would be that certain champions who currently can't deal with heavy MR stacking healing champions (Maokai being the largest offender) will be capable of at least dealing a little more damage to them. Have you seen how bad it is? Try playing ARAM against Maokai, Swain, or any healing Support (Soraka, Nami, Sona, etc.) with no Mortal Reminder / Executioners on your team. Do you know what happens? The enemies never reach 35% health. They heal so much that you suddenly begin realizing just how worthless the Grievous Wound passive on Morellonomicon really is. It's a little different on Summoner's Rift, but against a fed Maokai / enemy Soraka you can see the same result. Healing vs AP champions is brutal right now, the only way to deal with it is to have your AD champions get Mortal Reminder.. and that's really not good balance when only one set of champions is capable of stopping healing abilities / kits.
> [{quoted}](name=Poptart Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZRjjEgWL,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-07T17:54:21.514+0000) > > I don't see tanks being any weaker than they are now, even if they added this item exactly as it is into the game. The only difference would be that certain champions who currently can't deal with heavy MR stacking healing champions (Maokai being the largest offender) will be capable of at least dealing a little more damage to them. > > Have you seen how bad it is? Try playing ARAM against Maokai, Swain, or any healing Support (Soraka, Nami, Sona, etc.) with no Mortal Reminder / Executioners on your team. Do you know what happens? The enemies never reach 35% health. They heal so much that you suddenly begin realizing just how worthless the Grievous Wound passive on Morellonomicon really is. It's a little different on Summoner's Rift, but against a fed Maokai / enemy Soraka you can see the same result. > > Healing vs AP champions is brutal right now, the only way to deal with it is to have your AD champions get Mortal Reminder.. and that's really not good balance when only one set of champions is capable of stopping healing abilities / kits. If your enemies never reach below 35% health you have far more to worry about. I understand where you're coming from, but even in games with a lot of healers, enemies are **_bound_** to get below that thresh hold, especially squishier champions. It was just a plain lie what you're saying in regards to that.
Antenora (EUW)
: I'd like to add - https://streamable.com/50adh - Thresh Q as well. > [{quoted}](name=FurorDivinus27,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E5LnL1BF,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-12-05T13:39:55.781+0000) > > The second hook comes from it "snapping" onto your champion. IIRC if a skillshot misses, it will look for anything within a small radius to latch onto. You must have been in that radius. But yeah, it's hitbox is quite questionable sometimes. If a skillshot misses then the spell shouldn't snap onto someone else in range.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E5LnL1BF,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-12-05T15:44:18.794+0000) > > I'd like to add - > > https://streamable.com/50adh - Thresh Q as well. > > > If a skillshot misses then the spell shouldn't snap onto someone else in range. That to me just looks like crazy lag. Even Riot's shitty hitboxes are not **_that_** level of bad.
: I love how people whined about assassins but they had to at least land abilities to kill someone whereas it only takes a right click to die from an adc. All adc's have to do is dodge a part of someones burst and right click them but people say this class takes skill lmao.
> [{quoted}](name=specter424,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mo4PO2I3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-31T21:43:44.325+0000) > > I love how people whined about assassins but they had to at least land abilities to kill someone whereas it only takes a right click to die from an adc. All adc's have to do is dodge a part of someones burst and right click them but people say this class takes skill lmao. That and they have an entire class and champion completely dedicated to protecting and peeling for them. Assassins did need a rework, don't get me wrong, but delaying an assassins burst to the degree that they did with it is the exact opposite of what an assassin is supposed to be.
: script kitng adc's .. why wont they get banned
Because chances are they aren't actually scripting and you are just being a salty bastard. If they don't get banned it _**likely**_ means they weren't scripting in the first place.
Profirix (NA)
: I'm always worried when I get a Kayn on my team because it almost always results in a 4v5. He isn't that complicated of a champion...clearly his numbers are more of an issue than skill floor.
> [{quoted}](name=Tongue in Cheek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JnHUkfQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-19T21:40:41.444+0000) > > I'm always worried when I get a Kayn on my team because it almost always results in a 4v5. He isn't that complicated of a champion...clearly his numbers are more of an issue than skill floor. Wish his ult did more. It tickles.
: or you could just snipe them from the backline with his massive ass aoe and save your e for escapes anyways cause he's so mobile. I dunno I don't think he's got a problem.
> [{quoted}](name=AmetDeCrypt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zaXtM3Hj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-19T00:20:42.254+0000) > > or you could just snipe them from the backline with his massive ass aoe and save your e for escapes anyways cause he's so mobile. > > I dunno I don't think he's got a problem. Chances are you are going to be using E to get to most fights, especially if they are in the jungle or top/bot lane (which is the vast majority of the map.
Jøkèr (NA)
: Can Riot please differentiate between Kayn's forms on match history.
Not a bad idea, but more often than not you can tell simply by the build path that they choose. Shadow Assassin is lethality and AD oriented, while Darkin might see more of a bruiser type build.
: They want games to end faster so they won't. When they decide they want games to last a little longer then they'll start giving them some love. Reason why rift exist is to take towers faster so people would fight to contest it.
> [{quoted}](name=RainbowIcee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ijyargjm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-13T19:59:50.730+0000) > > They want games to end faster so they won't. When they decide they want games to last a little longer then they'll start giving them some love. Reason why rift exist is to take towers faster so people would fight to contest it. When games are ending easily around 25 minutes and people aren't getting past 3 items it should show that the whole tower nerf thing a while back was dumb, specifically the inhib tower nerf.
: Gameplay Design-side, it was mainly BelugaWhale and me, actually. That said, Urgot's kit is actually highly thematically and artistically driven, so it's important to cal out that there is much more design that goes into the update than just gameplay.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2EguPi6k,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-07-08T02:26:23.203+0000) > > Gameplay Design-side, it was mainly BelugaWhale and me, actually. > > That said, Urgot's kit is actually highly thematically and artistically driven, so it's important to cal out that there is much more design that goes into the update than just gameplay. I actually like the look of his new kit and I feel like this is gonna be on the side of Riot's praised reworks, along with ones like Poppy and Sion. Thematically fits, and the kit doesn't seem blatantly strong in certain aspects. I like it.
Penns (EUW)
: Well.. kind of, but its a skillshot and they need to be at low hp first to activate it.
> [{quoted}](name=Penns,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2EguPi6k,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-07T22:00:16.419+0000) > > Well.. kind of, but its a skillshot and they need to be at low hp first to activate it. Well it is definitely a counter to strong healing supports and drain tanks. Champions like Mundo, Vlad, Swain, Soraka, Lulu, etc. won't be able to heal through his execute which I think is very nice.
: So "certain death" abilities are a thing now...
Honestly it's not as bad as it seems. Looking at someone like Garen especially the effect is very similar. I'm gonna assume the health threshhold isn't very high considering that it's insta-death, and not just a normal execute like Darius, Garen, or Rek'Sai. I think it might even be more balanced than those executes especially because it's a skillshot with a relatively thin hit-box. We'll just have to wait and see where Riot decides to put the cutoff for the insta-death, because from the video it didn't seem very high on the Vi (looked to be around 10% which is very fair).
: its long to do and in a terrible place, why do it?
> [{quoted}](name=The Gaytrox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GwFV8n76,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-04T23:41:55.897+0000) > > its long to do and in a terrible place, why do it? What makes it a terrible place?
Zeanix (OCE)
: "Yeees a week of waiting I finally got a chest! I hope I get enough essence for this skin im saving"
I can't be the only one who rarely ever gets champion shards, right? The vast majority of things I get from hextech chests are just skin shards.
: God why does this marksman who built full damage kill me so fast?
> [{quoted}](name=Bubbaman73,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW89q5Qe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-03T11:12:35.521+0000) > > God why does this marksman who built full damage kill me so fast? It wouldn't be a problem if assassins were actually able to do their job and kill them. At this point, marksman function as both the assassin and, of course, the marksman. It's hard for an assassin to burst through ridiculous amounts of lifesteal and self healing. It's hard for an assassin to burst through tons of % damage reduction in the form of Phantom Dancer, Knight's Vow, and Death's Dance (not reduction, but delay functions in a similar manner when paired with lifesteal). It's hard to burst through ridiculous amounts of heals and shields coming from supports with items like Locket, Redemption, Face of the Mountain, Athene's. Marksman are getting way too many defensive tools for the amount of damage they do and their class description (whether it be directly or indirectly). They are just too strong right now because of that.
Muzét (EUW)
: His kit isn't that much overloaded...?
> [{quoted}](name=Muzét,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JbjL7NT0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-27T20:16:06.968+0000) > > His kit isn't that much overloaded...? I feel like people are taking his 3 different "forms" and treating them as one instead of separate kits. Each kit on it's own isn't overloaded, but people see his two forms of the Shadow Assassin and Rhaast and get the impression that he is overloaded.
Ralanr (NA)
: Also that GA was a full resistance item which made it a less desired purchase. You're not wrong that support items are overtunned right now. But let's not ignore the sustain buffs through DD and the change to GA that made it much more popular for ADCs.
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nAvx3KPd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-26T15:35:28.703+0000) > > Also that GA was a full resistance item which made it a less desired purchase. > > You're not wrong that support items are overtunned right now. But let's not ignore the sustain buffs through DD and the change to GA that made it much more popular for ADCs. Honestly the full resistance made it a more desired purchase for me. I'd rather have the MR back than have 40 extra AD.
Jmman (NA)
: {{champion:103}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:61}} these guys or to an extent {{champion:115}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:51}} you just start talking about range, peel, mobility / safety and these guys just pop in my head first
> [{quoted}](name=jmman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oey93XFL,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2017-06-20T19:43:24.822+0000) > > {{champion:103}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:61}} these guys or to an extent {{champion:115}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:51}} you just start talking about range, peel, mobility / safety and these guys just pop in my head first Yeah but those champions actually have their own weaknesses. The majority of those champions aren't long ranged mages, but are considered mid-range. Mid-ranged: {{champion:103}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:163}}, and Ekko is just plain short ranged at melee Ziggs, Veigar, and Lux don't have any mobility. Once you get on top of them they can only rely on their CC to escape. The only one who actually has too much from that list is Caitlyn. She's got long range, peel, high damage, and mobility.
Ralanr (NA)
: But what would be his weaknesses if he keeps mobility along with damage?
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oey93XFL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-20T19:01:25.541+0000) > > But what would be his weaknesses if he keeps mobility along with damage? And insane range and self peel ability. Something has to go, he can't have all of it.
: I chose order because I like the theme, i dont like disturbance/mess/untidyness (chaos... lmao) Besides I dont want to be grouped with all those toxic yasuo mains
> [{quoted}](name=ScarletStudy,realm=EUNE,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=n3XYdRJU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-06-19T14:18:55.736+0000) > > I chose order because I like the theme, i dont like disturbance/mess/untidyness (chaos... lmao) > Besides I dont want to be grouped with all those toxic yasuo mains Toxic riven mains aren't that far ahead, if they're even ahead at all.
Wet Dryman (EUNE)
: I'm pretty sure there's more to that. For example people sided with Chaos don't think with their dicks :P
> [{quoted}](name=Ishmael,realm=EUNE,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=n3XYdRJU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-19T13:25:05.632+0000) > > I'm pretty sure there's more to that. For example people sided with Chaos don't think with their dicks :P I can assure you, I think with my dick.
: Consumable Items Should be at the top of the Recommended Items List
I agree, but if someone can't take less than half a second it takes to scroll down and view the control ward item then chances are they never planned on buying one to begin with.
: Rakan has shields and heals because he's a support. Xayah has no shields/heals. Camille has one heal on a high cooldown and an awkward hitbox. Ivern has shields because he's a jungler who cosplays as a support. And then you have to go back to Illaoi (Kled, Taliyah, Au Sol, Jhin) until you get another champ with heals. I really don't think it's that absurd.
> [{quoted}](name=TurquoiseYoshi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zWEWrEb3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-16T15:40:57.013+0000) > > Rakan has shields and heals because he's a support. > > Xayah has no shields/heals. > > Camille has one heal on a high cooldown and an awkward hitbox. > > Ivern has shields because he's a jungler who cosplays as a support. > > And then you have to go back to Illaoi (Kled, Taliyah, Au Sol, Jhin) until you get another champ with heals. I really don't think it's that absurd. It would've been better if OP talked about all the new support items instead of new champion heals. The items I believe are what causing the absurd amount of heals/shields.
: PSA about survivability: There is a difference between tankiness and survivability.
I feel like tankiness or more of a subset of survivability, while the latter is the larger, umbrella look at things. Tankiness falls under survivability, but survivability doesn't always mean tankiness.
Meddler (NA)
: Janna X RubicK: "I make things up and then present them as quotes" Let's start with a look at the post you're referring to: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/haWf2QnU-quick-gameplay-thoughts-june-13 Relevant section: > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=haWf2QnU,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-13T15:56:37.452+0000) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > **Support Starting Items** > > We've been looking at the starting support items now that they've been out for a while. Conclusion is that the Coin line is underperforming, so we'll be doing some more work on it. That will likely involve improvements both to the tier1 and tier 2 versions as well as the tier 3 upgrades (probably both Talisman and Eye of the Oasis). > > Possible the Frost Queen's is also too strong, what we'll likely do is buff coin first though then reassess whether that's actually the case or not. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Key things in there just to spell it out even more explicitly: * We've identified Coin is weak and will be buffing it, probably at all three upgrade tiers. * Frost Queen's might also be too strong. We'll look at that again after buffing Coin. Coin being weak doesn't mean Frost Queen's can't also be overpowered. Calling this thread out in particular because I think it's sad to see this sort of attitude on Boards, especially in a somewhat upvoted thread. The feeling any words you write will be deliberately misinterpreted, or warped, is something I've heard a number of Rioters call out over the years as one of the reasons they don't want to post anymore.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mg1RWfwL,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2017-06-15T17:43:06.266+0000) > > Janna X RubicK: "I make things up and then present them as quotes" > > Let's start with a look at the post you're referring to: > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/haWf2QnU-quick-gameplay-thoughts-june-13 > > Relevant section: > > Key things in there just to spell it out even more explicitly: > > * We've identified Coin is weak and will be buffing it, probably at all three upgrade tiers. > * Frost Queen's might also be too strong. We'll look at that again after buffing Coin. Coin being weak doesn't mean Frost Queen's can't also be overpowered. > > Calling this thread out in particular because I think it's sad to see this sort of attitude on Boards, especially in a somewhat upvoted thread. The feeling any words you write will be deliberately misinterpreted, or warped, is something I've heard a number of Rioters call out over the years as one of the reasons they don't want to post anymore. Thank god you called him out. I've always been annoyed with the quote title threads simply because of the fact that _**no one ever said the thing in quotes to begin with**_. I will admit, sometimes I go in on some circlejerks on the boards, mainly Yasuo ones, but when I see stuff that blatantly false it is annoying. Most people don't bother to fact check what's quoted and take it as gospel, so it's good you decided to call him out of his upvote farming false quotes.
Zielmann (NA)
: Did the Yi have Skirmisher's?
> [{quoted}](name=Zielmann,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ntqsm9zY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-14T14:45:23.890+0000) > > Did the Yi have Skirmisher's? It doesn't reveal ever since the invisibility update a while back.
: gr{{champion:119}} is aa reliant
He's a special case that I don't really know how to address. I genuinely don't know why Death's Dance is more popular on Draven. Maybe it's the other stats that he likes rather than the healing effect alone. I'm sure Bloodthirster would probably heal more than Death's Dance, but DD has it's other attractions to it.
: death dance
Death's Dance has reduced effectiveness if you are primarily an AoE champion, so in that regard you'd be better off with bloodthirster and relying on auto attacks. Also, Death's Dance only heals for 15% compared to 20% lifesteal Bloodthirster offers, which means if you don't have many abilities that deal physical damage or you aren't reliant on your abilities as much you are better off with Bloodthirster than Death's Dance. Someone like Caitlyn is better off with Bloodthirster since she's very auto reliant instead of ability, whereas someone like Graves is better off with Death's dance since he's very ability reliant and bursty.
Sintama (NA)
: Turret damage is sad. It is absolutely sad.
"But we have to keep increasing the pace of the game for more #LCSBIGPLAYS!" Seriously, turret damage is god awful. When I see squishy ADCs, mages, and assassins tanking turrets time after time and still getting alive it really becomes a problem. No one is asking to make turrets god tier, true damage, indestructible machines of death. We just want turrets to actually be a threat, because at this point the only time turrets are actually useful at deterring dives is for the first 5 minutes, which is god awful if you ask most people.
: While I do see your point, the issue comes when you look at the fact that GP and Yi **do** both have higher winrates past 40 minutes than Yasuo. I never said that Yi had to build crit, rather I said he simply out-damages Yasuo late-game. Yi can build {{item:1419}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3124}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3026}} and still easily out-damage Yasuo at {{item:3031}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3026}}, due to his much higher attack speed, on-hits, and true damage. The flaw in assuming that 80% critical chance will put GP at less late-game DPS than Yasuo is that GP does objectively deal more due to barrels, passive, Q, and basic attacks being taken into account. Even if he doesn't crit on one barrel, his barrels that do crit will push his damage higher than Yasuo. 80% critical strike is still 80% critical strike, and even armor pen builds with early {{item:3142}} followed by {{item:3031}} {{item:3036}} cause barrels to deal insane amounts of AoE. Hell, GP himself has a pretty big two-item spike and only gets more powerful with every crit item after Ghostblade. However, all of this doesn't even matter when **these two still have a higher winrate than Yasuo post 40**. Even if it "feels like" or "looks like" Yasuo is stronger late-game, the numbers suggest otherwise. Just on 7.10 alone, Yi's winrate was a whopping ~7% higher than Yasuo's post 40. What "needs to be considered" is the numbers, the winrates, and the math, not the fact that GP "potentially" doesn't get any crits at 80% (somehow) and therefor that is a fault of Yasuo. Making statements like "the actual outcome could be easily different" is irrelevant when the outcome is not different. "In theory" does not mean in actuality, but in this case, it does. And again, Yasuo is still indeed a late-game carry. He will do extremely high damage late-game, more than anyone who is not a late-game champion, but he will not deal quite as much as Master Yi, Vayne, GP, etc. I understand your thinking, but data suggest that Yasuo's crit passive is working exactly like it's intended to. I'm also curious; if they did remove the crit passive on Yasuo, would you (and be honest with yourself) actually rather have {{item:3046}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3071}}??? PD/Mallet/DD was the one time I would absolutely agree he was overpowered, but they fixed it by enhancing his crit identity. Would you rather have mobile bruiser tanky Yasuo than full damage squishy Yasuo?
I get your point in regard to Gangplank being able to outdamage Yasuo late game, but as far as Yi goes I'm still skeptical simply because he is an inherently easier champion than Yasuo is, which could easily be the factor that inflates his win rate and even damage past Yasuo. Yasuo isn't and has never been the easiest champion to grasp despite what people say. And in regards to your last point I don't think the problem with Yasuo is in one specific ability in his kit, but rather how they all interact with one another. He has too many safety nets, especially during laning phase when getting ahead is most important. Between his passive shield, his windwall, and his dashes it just makes it too hard and frustrating to play against a competent Yasuo player unless you are playing a hard counter. Against a good Yasuo player the lane is never in your hands, it's in the Yasuo players own screw-ups along with how your own jungler plays. In my opinion Yasuo just needs a full kit rework. Even if most of the community hate is just plain circlejerk, think about why it came about in the first place. There obviously is something wrong with this champion and his kit if damn near every forums about LoL and tons of players in game complain about Yasuo in one way or another. Him being overpowered was never really what I was arguing, but what I was trying to get across was that his kit itself is overloaded. Teamfighting, utility, mobility, hard CC, he's got it all. That's what makes him frustrating for the entire community.
: Yasuo falls **short** (bolding to not be mistaken for falling **off**) compared to other late-game champions like {{champion:41}} {{champion:11}}, due to his reduced critical strike damage. Any other late-game carry does equal or greater damage than Yasuo because of this. Granted his late-game damage is still fairly high, but that's the trade-off Yasuo makes; he has a much quicker mid-game spike due to double crit chance, but struggles to keep up that damage unless he continues to build damage into late-game. At that point Yasuo will be very squishy and need to play smart to avoid getting CC'd and blown up in teamfights. Basically, he gets his spike earlier, but isn't quite as powerful late-game in terms of raw DPS because of it.
I addressed this point in another comment. While the fact that Yasuo falls off may be true on theory due to his crit penalty, the actual outcome could be easily different due to the crit chance most carries opt to get. In traditional builds you almost never see carries like GP and Yi getting 100% crit. The most common build for Master Yi at this very moment according to champion.gg does not even include any crit-strike whatsoever. His other build includes anywhere from 50-70% crit chance. Gangplanks most common build is 80% crit chance. The point I am trying to make here is that it is very well possible for that crit penalty to not have as big of an effect on DPS compared to other melee ADC simply due to the fact that Yasuo gets 100% crit chance damn near 100% of the time in his build. Ranged ADCs are most commonly at 70%, other builds I've seen put some at 50%, and in the case of Gangplank he goes around 80%. Each time a carry isn't critting, Yasuo is, which could easily narrow, close, or even surpass the damage gap they supposedly have late game. Those factors **_need_** to be considered if you are going to bother bringing up late game DPS. Another point I'd like to bring up is the fact that some carries have to invest more in crit items instead of raw AD, like Yasuo can do without penalty. A Master Yi for a very high crit chance needs to invest in more crit items, therefore making his AD suffer from it and making the crits he does land hit way less in return. A Yasuo knocks out the crit factor from two items, allowing him to incorporate more AD into the build, therefore making the crits hit harder. I'm not saying it's a guarantee that Yasuo will out DPS, but if you are going to bring the point up it must be considered, rather than just looking at his crit penalty and automatically drawing the conclusion that he falls short. He very well might not short for the reasons I just mentioned, being guaranteed 100% vs 50%-80% and the fact that he incorporates more raw AD due to not having to itemize for crit nearly as much.
AmazoX (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Elias1724,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=klYp9dO1,comment-id=0006000100000000000000040000,timestamp=2017-06-03T17:16:14.025+0000) > > Way to take the argument completely out of context. Obviously any champion will need at least two items to have an impact, but to say two items on another champion is exactly two items on another champion is a complete lie. Yasuo's passive literally proves this fact due to the free stats that he gets from it. Two items on Yasuo is far greater than the same two items on any other melee carry. For how long are you going to ignore the fact that two core items on any other melee carry make them beat Yasuo's two core items.
And that's where we disagree. A skilled Yasuo with two of his core items will beat almost any other melee carry with two of theirs. The only exception here is probably only Tryndamere considering he gets 5 seconds of invulnerability.
: And yet essentially all of high level players would disagree. There is a reason solely low-level players complain about him so much. Low level players typically believe that if they cannot or do not know how to beat something, it is overpowered, overloaded, over-whatever. You don't play against every champion the same way, and this is the case for Yasuo. You must play differently versus Yasuo especially because he is a unique champion. But counterplay exists, and is very easy to do if you are willing to have the mindset of "I can't do whatever I want, I have to play a certain way as (insert champion) to beat him." As far as the points you brought up... 1. As a melee champion, it is not difficult to weave in an auto if he goes for a last hit and then walk out of the minion wave. Spells in top lane such as Nautilus or Malphite E can break a shield easily if the Yasuo player isn't keeping perfect distance, at which point you've gained lane control through push/pressure advantage. 2. If Yasuo uses his Wind Wall to "absorb the poke", then he is using Wind Wall incorrectly in many cases. If he is blocking a Syndra QE or Zed shuriken combo, that is an intended use. If he is blocking a Lux E while near full health, he has wasted Wind Wall. It is at this time that you call your jungler to gank in the 26 second window you have. 3. Maybe don't go for a combo without the jungler? Have the jungler CC him first so you can line up your own CC and chain him? If the jungler has no CC, just be content with the amount of damage a full Lee Sin or Kha'Zix gank can put onto him and he'll be forced to play back. Counterplay doesn't have to mean "use these kinds of spells or dodge this particular skillshot". Much of a champion's counterplay can revolve around positioning and lane control. A good example is when you see your next wave of minions coming, move away from them so he can't dash straight back to you. Harass him while he's in an auto or Q animation with an auto to pop his shield. You may not _kill _ Yasuo in lane, but that doesn't mean you don't necessarily win the lane. If you're jungler gets him to back after a gank and he loses a wave with a cannon, that's a big advantage. Yasuo can't dash through his own minions, so ganks will work much better than trying to be a pro and land everything. Try playing Yasuo 10 games in a row (if he isn't banned) and you'll very quickly figure out his weaknesses. If you cannot do the above, then I'm afraid it is not Yasuo who is overpowered, but it is you who is simply not experienced enough versus him to win. If you are conscious in your effort to beat him, make good decisions, and capitalize on his weaknesses (again, play him and you'll figure them out very quickly), and remember that there will be Yasuo players who just play better.
1. If you go for the strategy of just auto attacking and walking away, chances are the Yasuo isn't going to let you get away for free and will choose to take advantage of the shield he now has activated and trade with you. There is no point in letting the shield go to waste unless he knows the matchup is bad for him. If you use spells to break it, not only did you waste mana, but you are also down that spell, likely your main damage spell, and have to wait for a cooldown before you can properly trade. 2. What I meant by absorbing poke would also apply to combos. A Zed using his WQE combo during lane counts as trying to land poke. To address the other part, you can't always rely on your jungler to gank and help you. The fact that you only seem to mention the jungler helping you when his windwall is down (after he absorbed something) shows a problem in that there are not enough windows of opportunity for a **_laner_** to face Yasuo himself without a hard counter. 3. Again, saying to not go for combos without the help of a jungler proves a problem. In most cases, you shouldn't have to rely on jungle pressure for the sake of a lane. The thing with Yasuo is that is oftentimes the case unless you play a hard counter to Yasuo, like Riven or Malzahar. Yasuo may not be overpowered, I never said he was overpowered once in that post, but he sure as hell in overloaded in his ability to play around what you do (I actually said lacked viable counterplay). I'm not saying it's not possible to beat Yasuo, but I am saying a good Yasuo player can counter almost everything you do against him. Just because every Yasuo player is not good does not mean that Yasuo is not an overloaded champion. I actually have played Yasuo, quite a bit actually, but I attribute all of my failures as my own fault, and not a design flaw of the champion. Whenever I die as Yasuo I can confidently say "I fucked up", instead of "I got screwed over" like is possible for many other champions who can be countered in one form or another. An example of this would be when I play Shyvana. When I played her a lot, her ult used to be able to be interrupted. That's an example of counter play that she had, and it led me to an "I got screwed over" conclusion. An enemy Thresh was able to time player right, and I paid for it. With Yasuo I almost always die because I over extend or get too cocky. Had I backed off after a good trade instead of pursuing I'd have one lane. Had I warded properly and played in a safer manner with regards to the jungle, I'd have one lane. The only times I got genuinely countered as a Yasuo player were: Hard counters (like Malzahar, Riven, Malphite) Outnumbered Anything you do as a champion Yasuo can counter, and it's a simple fact of his design. He has too much utility and a lot mobility that make it near impossible to play around without a fuck up on said Yasuo's part.
AmazoX (EUW)
: Yet you disregard the fact those CARRIES you initially are referring to can all 1V1 the SAME YASUO you are afraid of, Ironic.
It is not always a guarantee that Yasuo will lose a fight against the same carries I am referring too. There are many ways Yasuo can outplay said carries. If Yasuo can kite well and use a style of attack and back off he will easily win the fight with his knockup because the other carries don't have that kind of hard CC. The fact that you also treat a 1v1 as the end all be all is a problem too. During late game, teamfights are what become the deal breaker. Yasuo shines in team fights **_like no other melee adc in this game_** due to possibly the best utility spell in the game, along with the ability to easily follow up on the initiation of others. Yasuo may not be able to 1v1 one of the best duelists in the game, but it really does no point to proving he is not overloaded in his kit. It's hard to point out a single champion that can confidently 1v1 a 6 item Yi or a 6 item Tryndamere. That point is just straight useless. Think of another champion that was blatantly overpowered as one point or another. I'm gonna go head and say release Rek'Sai. Rek'Sai was a very strong jungle and too powerful on release, hence the series of nerfs she got following the release. Just because Rek'Sai couldn't 1v1 6 item YI doesn't mean she wasn't overpowered at the time.
AmazoX (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Elias1724,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=klYp9dO1,comment-id=00060001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-02T18:46:56.795+0000) > > The difference is that Yasuo isn't even a late game carry. All he needs is two items to start carrying, which is not hard to get at all. Other late game carries actually start spiking around 4 items, never only two. Yes because which champion doesn't need two core items.
Way to take the argument completely out of context. Obviously any champion will need at least two items to have an impact, but to say two items on another champion is exactly two items on another champion is a complete lie. Yasuo's passive literally proves this fact due to the free stats that he gets from it. Two items on Yasuo is far greater than the same two items on any other melee carry.
: And what is the argument behind that? High elo player Dong Huap (D2) says it's the opposite because Yasuo gets deleted farily quickly.
And if you're only argument is "because random high elo player said so" you don't have one either. My relies on the fact that Yasuo needs two core items to start spiking in damage due to the nature of his passive allowing him to reach 100% crit chance easily. Two items for a carry is equivalent to mid game in a normal match. You don't seem to be giving enough credit to the fact that he gets **_100% crit chance_** at 20 minutes. If that is not a strong mid game spike I don't know what is.
: > [{quoted}](name=Elias1724,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=klYp9dO1,comment-id=000b000000010001,timestamp=2017-06-02T23:52:53.585+0000) > > The thing is most late game carries don't reach 100% crit unless they are doing some cheese build. 70% is likely the maximum amount of crit you are going to see on a carry in ranked play, and when you consider Yasuo has 100% for a measly 10% penalty while other carries don't crit 30% of the time DPS is likely to even out, or even venture in Yasuo's favor. > > 100% crit is a ridiculously powerful thing, and critting slightly less doesn't really make him any worse in terms of DPS. Each time another carry isn't critting Yasuo is critting. Math is hard I know.
What are you even getting at? I bought up a completely valid point. The fact of the matter is that carries almost never opt for 100% crit chance, whereas Yasuo always gets 100%, which can lead to Yasuo's so called fall off late game evening out in reality.
: His "insane mobility" is completely dependent on minions or multiple champions clumped up which is why one of the main counterplays is to run into the jungle and then engage
You act like minions aren't all over in lanes. You act like champions aren't available to target in team fights. You act like monsters aren't all of the jungle. His mobility is completely insane, and the fact that it requires a unit is not anywhere near as big of a downside as people make it out it to. In games that I play it's really hard for me to count the times I've seen a Yasuo get screwed over, especially in laning because there was nothing to dash to.
: yasuo is worse than any carry in late game due to crit penality (10% and 25% on Q) you can check that on his win rate a late game yi will kill tanks in 4 hits and squishies in 2 hits, yi has more than 6% win rate higher than yasuo in late game
The thing is most late game carries don't reach 100% crit unless they are doing some cheese build. 70% is likely the maximum amount of crit you are going to see on a carry in ranked play, and when you consider Yasuo has 100% for a measly 10% penalty while other carries don't crit 30% of the time DPS is likely to even out, or even venture in Yasuo's favor. 100% crit is a ridiculously powerful thing, and critting for slightly less doesn't really make him any worse in terms of DPS. Each time another carry isn't critting Yasuo is critting.
: WHAT. Bro. Please. Stop. He needs to get 2 Items to deal damage, but he can't do any carrying till late game. {{item:3026}} and {{item:3072}} are the only reason he lives through fights. End of story. Mid Game is when Yasuo is weak unless you have fed him.
If you think Yasuo is weak during mid-game you are a fool. Mid game is literally the exact point where Yasuo spikes harder than everyone else.
: yes he does damage but hes squishy as hell he gets a shield that last like one second with pretty low base hp
He has more than enough utility tools to keep him alive. Pair that with the Warlord's and even tankier Yas builds and he is all but squishy.
: I think the way people approach the topic starts this chain. If I were to make a thread asking for advice on what I did wrong, I would get better results than asking to be unbanned because @#$% riot. Which is 85% of the ban threads.
Exactly. The reason people say "Glad you got banned" is because 90% of the threads being made are just their whining and ignorant views about how they are justified in telling someone to fuck off or kill themselves. Then they go on a rant about how Riot is shit. Of course people are gonna be glad they got banned, the reason is right there in their style of posting and attitude.
Ônyx (NA)
: https://image.prntscr.com/image/d19921b4bed34bb197c43c1b753e53d3.png LUL
I don't understand what you're trying to get at with that picture.
: Problem is Yasuo has one of the strongest level 1s and 2s. Vayne is consistently shit throughout the entire lane. Gangplank is super vulnerable to all ins even with orange up. Yi has extremely low pressure early game. Kassadin gets shit on everyone who can basic attack before 6 and Fiora sucks in teamfights.
Yasuo is one of the few champions who genuinely lacks viable counterplay. He has the tools to play around everything you do, and if it is a good Yasuo he will save those tools for the right time. It annoys me when people say "Just bait his windwall" like it's an easy thing to do. Player against a good Yasuo and they will only use it to block your important CC spell. They act like it's easy to break his shield. If you're melee and break it via poke, you just wasted your main poke and likely don't have follow up damage. Results in a trade Yasuo wins. If you're melee without poke and decide to auto to break it, he can use that 2 second shield to trade with you while you run or try to break through it. Results in another lost trade. The only advantage is being ranged using an auto to break the shield, but even then he can use windwall to absorb to poke you intended to get on him past the shield. If you're skillshot based...say goodbye to the possibility of ever landing important skillshots in the laning phase unless the Yasuo you face is garbage. He's got too much. You don't win against Yasuo by strategy and counterplay, you win against Yasuo by him **_failing_** to use his counterplay tools.
Ralanr (NA)
: How is it different from Fiora or Riven?
Fiora and Riven can actually be shut down. Whenever I see a Riven or Fiora get utterly shit on during laning phase it's hard for them to ever come back. Yasuo gets shit on in laning phase and he becomes a threat after finishing one item, then people start to fear him after two.
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Elias1724

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