: Why is kaisa allowed to be so busted
Because she's a flashy adc and she's popular.
Nuvak (NA)
: Top Lane.......
Gnar is worse to deal with than both of them combined when played even semi-competently. Not only can he beat them both in lane, but he has %max HP on-hit auto-attacks, which is absolute aids to deal with as a melee. Since he does mixed damage, you can't effectively counter-build against him in lane. He's also harder to put out of a game due to having more utility than other ranged top laners. That said, I do think Riot needs to be a lot more lenient toward melee champions. When balancing, they seem to forget that being ranged is a MASSIVE advantage without question. In pretty much any video game, melee dps become progressively more difficult to play the harder the content and/or the better opponents become.
Lárxene (NA)
: Why were all of Quinn's QoL changes reverted?
Just build {{item:3095}} like half of the other marksmen and burst champs are doing.
: that base ad nerf isnt enough for graves
Nerfing base AD is actually kind of a big deal (generally speaking), but he has bonus AD scaling and steroids that make up for it, plus he builds mostly offensive items anyway. It slightly nerfs his early game dominance, but he'll still scale well and snowball off of one kill. If they really wanted to destroy him, they would also nerf his W, E, and R with cooldown/mana cost increases like they did with Trundle. Fortunately for him and his players, he's an adc (and somewhat popular at that) so Riot will never nerf him that hard, and even if they did for some reason he would be compensated within a month.
Rioter Comments
Vztah (NA)
: I get the sentiment (disregarding the whole soulless corp mumbo-jumbo and everything after it) but that's exactly what zeph is getting at (at least it seems like it.) Let's be real what are your interests and wants when those of giants and magnates come before it? Riot being involved with those influences do you really think they'd have the freedom to cater specifically to you? Disregarding those influences why should yours be stronger than any other joe shmoes? Restrictions simply come with the territory they made their bed. But maybe this is indicative of a lack of direction and precision on their part regarding their product....I mean if you want success you'd expect more people being satisfied with your product than not. Of course, you could simply be one of the outliers regarding that satisfaction/success and they could have clear direction and precision.
> [{quoted}](name=Vztah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0uEE08H,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-30T17:13:39.837+0000) > > I get the sentiment (disregarding the whole soulless corp mumbo-jumbo and everything after it) but that's exactly what zeph is getting at (at least it seems like it.) > > Let's be real what are your interests and wants when those of giants and magnates come before it? Riot being involved with those influences do you really think they'd have the freedom to cater specifically to you? Disregarding those influences why should yours be stronger than any other joe shmoes? Restrictions simply come with the territory they made their bed. > > But maybe this is indicative of a lack of direction and precision on their part regarding their product....I mean if you want success you'd expect more people being satisfied with your product than not. > > Of course, you could simply be one of the outliers regarding that satisfaction/success and they could have clear direction and precision. I'm mainly still salty about Dominion's removal, 3v3 being a broken and unbalanced mess for years, our complete and utter lack of variety when it comes to game modes, defensive itemization/scaling being terrible (_because they want games to be more "exciting" to viewers_), mobility being completely out of hand, and the blatant favoritism when it comes to balancing. Of course I don't expect them to cater to solely to me, but it's not like I'm the first person to have such complaints and they could do a lot better in this regard if they could stop being so greedy and instead focus more on actually creating a better product (for the **players**, not spectators).
: > [{quoted}](name=Elkington,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ULvxAEhK,comment-id=0036,timestamp=2018-09-30T02:00:37.359+0000) > > {{champion:48}} Literally destroyed by nerfs. I've been playing him near exclusively since season 2 and I literally cannot make him work right now, his nerfs were just too much. Just by picking him I feel like I'm holding the team back, feels bad man. > > First 3v3, then Dominion and Ascension, and now they've destroyed my favorite champ. I want to enjoy this game, but Riot makes it very difficult. I don't really like Trundle but i understand what you mean. He is still playable top thought.
> [{quoted}](name=Press Q Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ULvxAEhK,comment-id=00360000,timestamp=2018-09-30T20:58:45.844+0000) > > I don't really like Trundle but i understand what you mean. He is still playable top thought. It feels like Riot does everything in their power to make this game an unenjoyable experience, unless you play ADCs, flashy burst champs, or tanks. They gut Trundle for countering tanks, then they go and buff Darius and Fiora, who kill tanks and squishies alike when they're strong. I just don't understand.
Napoleon3 (EUNE)
: thats why old quinn was way more stronger than new.
I don't understand what the first video is supposed to be proving. Quinn just gets completely wrecked by Vayne, along with the rest of her team.
: > [{quoted}](name=Elkington,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0uEE08H,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-09-30T13:03:08.504+0000) > > That's basically saying they take no issue with throwing the playerbase under the bus just to appeal to people that don't even play the game. It's like those people that watch MMA that want every match to be an "exciting" and brainless brawl and think most grappling styles are boring (mainly because they don't understand what's going on). Imagine if grappling arts (and defensive/strategic styles in general) were banned or heavily restricted in order to make matches more exciting for viewers, that's essentially what Riot does with this game. > > Yes, let's completely cater to people that aren't even invested in the product (instead of making sure said product is enjoyable to begin with), I'm sure that's going to well in the long run. they have, the game has literally survived this long and it's still one of the most popular games regardless of what anyone says. Right now, nothing they do will please people. People ask for things, they give it to them and everyone instantly complains because "we did not ask for this!" when they did or "this isn't what we wanted" but it was just that you couldn't handle the consequences of being given that thing. Or even better wanting one thing that will result in another thing that people are constantly complaining about.
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0uEE08H,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-09-30T13:21:51.270+0000) > > they have, the game has literally survived this long and it's still one of the most popular games regardless of what anyone says. Right now, nothing they do will please people. People ask for things, they give it to them and everyone instantly complains because "we did not ask for this!" when they did or "this isn't what we wanted" but it was just that you couldn't handle the consequences of being given that thing. Or even better wanting one thing that will result in another thing that people are constantly complaining about. Riot hasn't given me a single thing I've wanted, so I don't know what you're talking about. All they have done over the years is take away nearly everything I've enjoyed about this game. They give if they see profit in it, but they don't care about how fun said thing might/might not be. They're basically no different than a soulless corporation at this point. It always amuses me when I see players from other games complain about balance or about not being heard, but they've no clue how good they have it compared to this game.
Dasdi96 (NA)
: I think we can all agree that duskblade and stormrazor are horrible design for items.
Even if the items were removed, it's not like damage would be any less absurd. The overlying problem are the underwhelming defensive options, both through runes and itemization. There are myriad ways to improve your damage, but extremely limited ways to mitigate or reduce it aside from avoiding said damage completely. I see percentage based damage amplifiers all over the place, but where are all the percent based mitigation skills? The only one I can think of through runes that purely offers defense is conditioning, which can only be accessed 10 entire minutes into the game (aka when the snowballing has already long started). The others either deal damage or accommodate damage stacking like nullifying orb. There is too much damage all over the place and not enough mitigation and reduction. Back in season 2, there was an even amount of defensive and offensive scaling, and nearly every champion was viable to some extent. The only champions that had a hard time back then were arguably assassins and/or flashy champions that relied on one-shotting opponents. They were feast-or-famine back then because defensive scaling and itemization were actually good, so they had to snowball early on or risk falling off late game, since even adcs would purchase at least one pure defensive item. I feel like a broken record at this point, but this game will always be a balance nightmare until Riot decides to finally even the power between offensive and defensive scaling/itemization. **Simply buffing a few tanks/bruisers does nothing, you have to improve the power of both defensive itemization AND defensive runes. No damage, just straight up buffing defense. ** League of Legends is supposed to be a strategy game, where defensive and offensive options are generally held in equal value.
iiGazeii (NA)
: The devs focus on Worlds this time of year, and they've explicitly stated that while every champion being viable is ideal, they prioritize a fun viewing experience over champion diversity. They think it would be better to have exciting games with flashy plays than allowing for boring, if viable, champions from all over the board grind the action to a halt.
> [{quoted}](name=iiGazeii,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0uEE08H,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-30T04:21:37.827+0000) > > The devs focus on Worlds this time of year, and they've explicitly stated that while every champion being viable is ideal, they prioritize a fun viewing experience over champion diversity. They think it would be better to have exciting games with flashy plays than allowing for boring, if viable, champions from all over the board grind the action to a halt. That's basically saying they take no issue with throwing the playerbase under the bus just to appeal to people that don't even play the game. It's like those people that watch MMA that want every match to be an "exciting" and brainless brawl and think most grappling styles are boring (mainly because they don't understand what's going on). Imagine if grappling arts (and defensive/strategic styles in general) were banned or heavily restricted in order to make matches more exciting for viewers, that's essentially what Riot does with this game. Yes, let's completely cater to people that aren't even invested in the product (instead of making sure said product is enjoyable to begin with), I'm sure that's going to well in the long run.
: When an Assassin is one shotting thats fine. Wukong isnt one. Or shouldnt be at least
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXKYxEs9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-29T19:43:55.775+0000) > > When an Assassin is one shotting thats fine. > > Wukong isnt one. > Or shouldnt be at least Assassins are low risk/high reward picks these days. They just do whatever they please and everyone else just has to deal with it.
: Almost seems like riot's balance team is intentionally trying to ruin the games balance
{{champion:48}} Completely gutted to S3 Olaf tier, despite being completely balanced. Has always been one of the least popular champs, so he'll probably remain in his current broken state for almost a year before Riot does anything.
Lapis (OCE)
: What's the hardest skillshot to land?
Ashe arrow imo. Point blank is easy, but hitting someone from across the map takes some finesse.
: Why do i feel handicaped while playing my favorite champion?
{{champion:48}} Literally destroyed by nerfs. I've been playing him near exclusively since season 2 and I literally cannot make him work right now, his nerfs were just too much. Just by picking him I feel like I'm holding the team back, feels bad man. First 3v3, then Dominion and Ascension, and now they've destroyed my favorite champ. I want to enjoy this game, but Riot makes it very difficult.
: recently played a game as Trundle. Build pure tank. Enemy team didn't have Conq. No armor penetration. No Voidstaff. No botrk. No tank buster champs. A Poppy for me to ult. I still flopped borderline instantly in every fight. Trundle is currently useless, even when hes a perfect pick kit wise, he is absolutely dreadful. MAYBE if theres a Soraka bot for him to synergize with in mid/late he might be viable.
> [{quoted}](name=PhearBunny,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bXf1EfjB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-29T17:20:28.255+0000) > > recently played a game as Trundle. > Build pure tank. > Enemy team didn't have Conq. > No armor penetration. > No Voidstaff. > No botrk. > No tank buster champs. > A Poppy for me to ult. > I still flopped borderline instantly in every fight. > Trundle is currently useless, even when hes a perfect pick kit wise, he is absolutely dreadful. > MAYBE if theres a Soraka bot for him to synergize with in mid/late he might be viable. I'm pretty sure even Quinn is stronger than him in the jungle right now, and taking him top is pointless. It's kind of sad honestly. The nerfs dumpstered his early game, but that's when he's supposed to solidify a lead so he actually has a mid game. The only way to make his early-mid game work imo is to prioritize damage for the first two items, which is honestly playing a game of chance with an immobile melee (with no innate burst damage).
Rioter Comments
: Why buff Darius?
I know right? Right after they gutted Trundle as well. Now pretty much nobody can keep Darius in check.
: To be fair, trundle toplane was super oppressive. He could duel almost any melee top laner at level 1 and win, and most ranged ones too. His jungle presence i feel wasnt as oppressive as his toplane presence, but still an excellent jg pick nonetheless.
> [{quoted}](name=robochicken7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eHXphlw2,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-09-26T19:26:27.467+0000) > > To be fair, trundle toplane was super oppressive. He could duel almost any melee top laner at level 1 and win, and most ranged ones too. His jungle presence i feel wasnt as oppressive as his toplane presence, but still an excellent jg pick nonetheless. Now no one (save for maybe a good Udyr) can give Lee trouble in the jungle anymore. Trundle can barely fight Lee early on now and I'm pretty sure Lee outscales him since the nerfs. Darius no longer has any melee top laner that can keep him in check now. This nerf changes a lot more than Riot seems to think. They must be planning on reworking him, hence the overboard crazy nerfs that would keep pretty much anyone from playing him (until they change him).
Antenora (EUW)
: Trundle deserves any and all nerfs coming to him. They really need to stop nerfing Sejuani though. I'm not a Sejuani player by any means, I played her once and found it extremely boring but there needs to be a time when enough is enough. She's in almost every set of patch notes this season with some sort of brutal nerf. Sejuani's only been a pro play problem since her rework, right? Shouldn't that be a wake up call to Riot that she needs reverting or deeper work than some numbers changes?
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEccwhPu,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-09-09T10:26:31.898+0000) > > Trundle deserves any and all nerfs coming to him. > > > They really need to stop nerfing Sejuani though. > > I'm not a Sejuani player by any means, I played her once and found it extremely boring but there needs to be a time when enough is enough. > > She's in almost every set of patch notes this season with some sort of brutal nerf. > > > Sejuani's only been a pro play problem since her rework, right? > > Shouldn't that be a wake up call to Riot that she needs reverting or deeper work than some numbers changes? Why does Trundle deserve it, but not Sejuani? Between the two of them, she's always been significantly easier to win games with due to having a stronger kit. Trundle just happens to counter tanks, but Sej has always been the better champion.
: I don't think Trundles ever get that much CDR normally.
> [{quoted}](name=Colonel J,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=iLOvhAI3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-09T02:38:01.380+0000) > > I don't think Trundles ever get that much CDR normally. Health and CDR are his two best stats.
: Rest in Peace Trundle
So it wasn't just me. I just started playing again after half a year (due to work) and was wondering what was going on. Turns out he was nerfed significantly with the most meaningless compensation buff, a 40% bonus AD ratio. He can barely duel Lee Sin in the jungle anymore, which is kind of a problem seeing as Lee is better in pretty much every other aspect. Thanks for these nerfs Riot.
: Riot please bring back weekly Random Game Modes.
I just want Ascension. Don't really care about the other modes honestly. The others are too constricted in terms of comp/champ variety.
Risen29 (NA)
: Streamer quits, outlines some key problems with direction of the game
The funny thing is these issues have been a thing on SR for a while, they've just been exascerbated over the years in an effort to make games faster and more exciting. Dominion removed well over half of the problems of SR, which people would have finally seen had it not gotten removed due to obscurity. Since there are no decent alternative modes left to play, people are simply leaving. This is what happens when Riot puts all of their time and resources into one thing, while neglecting everyone and everything else.
: Now with Conqueror beeing the agressive rune for extendet fights, i think it's time to shift some more power from damage to sustain on grasp, especially later on in the game. right now it's more an agressive rune than a defensive one.
> [{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qI0E4lqM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-12T22:13:03.392+0000) > > Now with Conqueror beeing the agressive rune for extendet fights, i think it's time to shift some more power from damage to sustain on grasp, especially later on in the game. right now it's more an agressive rune than a defensive one. Half the champs that tend/used to take Grasp don't even need the sustain honestly. It's just a lackluster keystone in general.
D0P3ST (NA)
: Garen Improvement
Garen could do 200% more damage and he would still be a binary pick on SR. In order to be a reliable immobile melee dps he needs a way to contribute to a team's victory outside of just damage output. In other words, he needs some kind of unique utility. He may not have the best winrates/pickrates, but Trundle is imo an example of a juggernaut done right. In addition to being a dps, he has enough utility to even be played support. I feel all of the juggernauts should have that kind of flexibility, since their dps is generally unreliable.
: Atma's Impaler - The Case For Re-release
I'm all for bringing it back, but not with crit chance. Everyone would whine about Yasuo and GP building it (exept for me as them getting tanky actually makes them easier for Trundle to kill).
: The Aspects of Balance Nobody talks about: Player Skill, Balance Cycle and Riot spoiling Players
Riot also tends to make quite a few weird changes that no one asks for, as well as seemingly showing favoritism when it comes to balancing.
Rexxiee (NA)
: Can you believe ppl here are defending sion 55% 7% pick rate numbers?
He's one of the more fair tanks to play against in my eyes. It's also hard to nerf him without making him not worth picking, as Maokai and Ornn are much easier to play.
: Where are items for Juggernauts?
Defensive itemization is actually not that great, aside from the support items. Tanks are just inherently gold efficient, so they make better use of the much cheaper itemization. In S2, defensive itemization was legit strong, yet bruisers didn't generally lose to tanks in lane. The main problem is the lack of %damage reduction and early resists via masteries/runes, which let bruisers rush their core items without having to worry about defense unless against a truly lopsided matchup (i.e. Teemo, Ryze, Kennen). There are plenty of ways to amplify damage through both runes and itemization, but limited ways to mitigate it.
darkdill (NA)
: Perhaps not to that level of complexity, but something like that. _(I'm unfamiliar with FFXIV mechanics, though.)_
> [{quoted}](name=Yousosmart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UfAVd9Lf,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2018-02-18T19:55:42.532+0000) > > Perhaps not to that level of complexity, but something like that. _(I'm unfamiliar with FFXIV mechanics, though.)_ Scholar in FFXIV is a support class centered around both mitigating and dealing damage, while micromaging a pet that can either heal over time or boost a party's damage output. Has a pretty high skill ceiling and imo is one the most rewarding jobs in the game when played well. A kit like that would be hard to bring over to LoL without issues. It would be like a mix between Orianna and Lulu, and Pix had its own moveset/cooldowns and could heal people.
ZaNJeTsU (EUW)
: @RiotTryndamere ( MarcMerrill) Please read this from a player who loves your game
Bruiser items are generally too expensive and offer no defense. With how much damage runes provide now, it's more cost efficient to rush tank items first, saving damage items for later (assuming the game even reaches that point). Not going to outtrade a tank as a bruiser while rushing Triforce or Cleaver. You have to actually prioritize resistances if you want to be tanky now. Bruisers need a better keystone in the precision and/or defense tree. Primarily something that rewards them for building health. Grasp isn't that great since most bruisers have innate sustain and the damage you gain in return isn't enough.
: Sion actually needs a fucking nerf
What do you even nerf on his kit? Pretty much everything he does can be avoided pretty easily. That said, he is a very safe pick that scales better than most melees into late game (utility-wise).
darkdill (NA)
: Has there been any thought given toward a "Healer Pet"?
You mean something like the Scholar class from FFXIV. That's my favorite job in the game, but I imagine that kind of flexibility would be game-breaking in LoL.
: ADC is the BEST role to teach you everything about this game.
I disagree about adc teaching you _everything_ you need to know. I feel the jungle role teaches one the most about the game, since they tend to be the most objective-focused/map control-oriented. Along with mid, they have the most control over what goes on for the majority of the game. A jungler has to know what everyone is doing in order to succeed. It's the role that scales the most with one's game knowledge. In addition, it's the role with the widest variety of champions/playstyles, all of which have to be taken into account to jungle efficiently. In contrast, adc is probably the most mechanically intensive role, but their build-pathing tends to be rather linear, and most of them don't play differently enough from one another to teach one everything they need to know about this game. Jungler is the best role for refining one's game knowledge, while adc/bot-lane is arguably the best for improving your mechanical skill. Both are equally important in this game and some people are naturally better at one over the other.
: Wasn't me, I don't have any youtube videos at all.
> [{quoted}](name=Simple Tora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5V7MAB4O,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-17T03:37:00.879+0000) > > Wasn't me, I don't have any youtube videos at all. Well maybe I was mistaken then, but the person I'm thinking of has a name very similar to yours and they play a lot of Quinn.
: @The quinn changes you're looking into
I'm pretty sure I've seen some of your Quinn vids on the tube before. Yeah, it would be nice if her ult was similar to Tag Team again, but as a toggle.
: Why does Triforce get 20% CDR while Lichbane only gets 10%?
It's harder to cap CDR on Triforce bruisers without sacrificing something. It's not the same as capping CDR on a mage.
: Then tanks would come in and abuse that item absurdly. A mix of giving Adaptive damage stat for health and health for Adaptive damage stat (not stacking with self) would make more sense on bruisers due to how they mix up building damage and health mostly
> [{quoted}](name=MuffledGarbage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yENkwBnE,comment-id=00180000,timestamp=2018-02-14T02:02:44.975+0000) > > Then tanks would come in and abuse that item absurdly. > > A mix of giving Adaptive damage stat for health and health for Adaptive damage stat (not stacking with self) would make more sense on bruisers due to how they mix up building damage and health mostly Not if it only gives physical damage. Aftershock would still be vastly superior on tanks regardless.
: What does a Bruiser Keystone look like?
How about a permanent damage increase (ex. 1.5-2%) for building hp, such as what Atmas Impaler used to do? This could replace the current Grasp and would function well on pretty much every bruiser.
: So can we admit that the RGM is a complete failure yet?
Yeah the major problem with most of these game modes is that they exclude too much of the champion roster. I see we have marksmen and assassin-only modes, so where is the bruiser mode or the tank/support mode? Not saying we need those, but if they're going to make game modes that only a select part of the roster can participate in, they might as well do it for all of the classes. RGMs should be all about getting to play what you want, instead of being more constrained than a game on SR.
Skorch (NA)
: Believe it or not but I actually think Riots making an active effort to improve the game.
Effort alone doesn't amount to much since Riot is a business, and results are all that matter once lots of money becomes involved. Riot removed Dominion so they could focus on and improve Summoner's Rift (as well as the game as a whole), and it doesn't look like much has really improved since then.
: "Tanks shouldnt do no damage, they SHOULD KILL ADCS"
This is why I believe Cho's Max HP damage on his E should be removed. He shouldn't be allowed to nuke squishies and shred bruisers, while also being a good team-fighter/bringing a wealth of CC. Where is the tradeoff?
: Vayne is not a template upon which you should design new ADCs
> [{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sbxApFNw,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-31T21:31:03.026+0000) > >Vayne is an archaic ball of stats champion with little to no interactivity. Her counterplay boils down to essentially CC lock her until she dies, which is the worst and most frustrating feeling in the world. Interacting with pretty much every ADC boils down to this. Vayne just happens to be one of the more self-sufficient ones, while also scaling the hardest. You either kill them immediately or they kill you and if they're behind and don't have their items they're useless. Ashe is one of the exceptions as she has the capacity to contribute to a win with her utility alone. She can still useful to a team when behind as long as she can land her skills and position decently. I feel more marksmen/ADCs should be made like her rather than becoming either the team's designated death dealer or dead weight.
Rewt (NA)
: How do people even enjoy laning
Completely agree. It's a shame Riot has gotten rid of the non-laning game modes.
: Trundle is the Pinnacle of Gameplay Design and Balance Riot should Strive for
I agree with you at least. Trundle is one of the few actually consistent melee champions in the game, barring supports and tanks. He doesn't particularly spike at all, but he's never weak or useless at any part of the game either. Don't listen to the people that throw around the term "ball of stats" as the same people often give ranged carries (aka the overlords of stat-checking) a free pass when it comes to that. Trundle can make plays without dealing any damage, making him one of the least "stat-checky/binary" bruisers in the game. Half the stats he gains he has to take from an opponent (albeit for a limited duration) anyway.
: as i said **a lot of melees are delayed but they can still do things before their delays** except darius
> [{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zxIKsQhe,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-01-31T08:40:35.899+0000) > > as i said **a lot of melees are delayed but they can still do things before their delays** > > except darius Even on release, when his Q came out instantly (and his ult on kill had no cooldown) Darius was a binary pick at best, only strong because he was overtuned. Him and Garen suffer from the same problem, in that all they offer to a team is theoretical damage output. Once they're put into a situation where they can't do that damage they're useless. Being both immobile and melee are pretty much the biggest weaknesses a champ can have in this game, followed by having no utility. In contrast, they're both decent picks that often carry on TT, but mainly because ranged carries are arguably the weakest picks on the map. Once you take ranged carries out of the equation, they can actually function as champions.
: Darius's problem, from a challenger Mordekaiser main
Nearly all of the immobile melees are either telegraphed or their damage has large windows to be played around. Darius problem, along with most other bruisers, is that his kit is too selfish. This doesn't work out too well on SR, where adc damage outcales everything, making most melee champ's worth based on how much they can assist their bot lane. If he had some real utility to fall back on he could actually be a consistent/reliable pick.
: Let's talk about everyone's favorite Demacian to forget - Quinn.
When they nerfed Quinn's burst, they should have greatly increased the MS from Heightened Senses instead of increasing her attack speed. Giving back the bonus AD ratio on her Q would also be pretty nice. Because if she can't take down her target quickly/reliably there is no point in picking her. Also, not sure if it would be over the top, but I feel her W and/or Harrier should reveal stealthed units. This would give her some unique utility to help her become less feast or famine. Right now, there aren't enough champions that counter stealth, and Quinn could easily be made into one without any big changes to her kit.
: You've added too much urgency to the game and it kills calm decision making
I completely agree, especially for junglers. There is way too much pressure to secure an early lead through ganking, because generally the early game decides everything now. The only exception to this if your comp is vastly inferior to the opponent's for some reason.
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Elkington

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