> [{quoted}](name=need a namexD,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=6ObJoXK1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-25T17:56:41.617+0000) > > For those who don't know they're going to add 2 new tiers > just saying because he didn't mention it and it might be misunderstood ^ Riot is adding a new tier?

Can't even hit R to kill if you're 5 kills ahead unlike the enemy Zed

I like how you're posting only the weaknesses of the champion to make it seem like he's weaker than Vayne. Vayne can't nullify damage to her or get a free shield - and her E is 15 seconds. Your whole argument is how Vayne's E is such a great self-peel tool that makes her too strong. Vayne has conditional CC that's easily avoidable and her ability is cooldown reliant while Yasuo's not. It's really easy to keep throwing around weaknesses. While Yasuo's ultimate is conditional, his trade-off is more burst (85% armor pen with LW) than Vayne in melee range and the ability to jump on top of a squishy. I really don't see how Vayne's E makes her such a self-peel heavy champion that makes her unkillable. In that case, Yasuo's third Q is a self-peel ability which he can use more often than Vayne's E. Not to mention there's a reason Yasuo is always on the top 3 most banned - so his actual win and play rate are never actually shown while Vayne is not as touched. "Yet this is a staple example on the issue on how ADCs have so much self-peel"

Her cost is player-dependency, lack of CC, and low range in terms of abilities that can extend her range or go outside of it. She risks always being in range of engage, CC, pounces, and mobility. So no, it's not "both worlds" - it's her niche. She's a duelist. Just like Yasuo can shred tanks with conqueror and Last Breath but can duel assassins or basically anybody.

TBH, Vayne's identity is to duel assassins and be a great duelist. Compared to Trist/Xayah - she doesn't have much self-peel but just a lot more kiting potential. Ezreal only has kiting potential - not self-peel. Peel - An ability to reduce/prevent incoming damage via displacing an enemy or giving yourself a beneficial status effect Kiting - The ability to extend your mobility to prevent damage from being taken as you deal damage Vayne is literally designed for it. (Just like Fiora is designed to shred tanks and squishies) Ezreal's kit is very player-dependent and he doesn't have much peel. His Q just provides a lot of safety and damage.

> [{quoted}](name=sphinxthelion7,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=KA3TP1iu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-22T13:23:38.831+0000) > > Well I started a new account and abandoned it because low level play is at least 50% smurf or better. So, I dont think there are many actually NEW accounts being made. Additionally, even as a veteran player leveling a new account is a FUCKING TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE! It was so bad I just stopped. I can not imagine how any new players would pick this up and think it is in anyway fun at all! I can not express enough how truly terrible leveling up an account is right now! I honestly dont think there are many new players, just many many smurf accounts. Riot's algorithm for picking out smurfs like yours will pair you up with other smurfs. For truly new players, it's pretty good with matching them with beginners.

Bad way to get this survey as you'll have a large amount of bias making the data unreliable.

Diamond is less than 2% of the player population...

People find it an easier way to dismiss someone's argument without showing why it's invalid. A Silver player with a 5% winrate (as an example) most likely doesn't know what they're talking about but people will not target the argument and just refute what they say without looking if the argument is indeed wrong.

This is the Boards where ADCs in all elos are why they get fed in lanes. Not the supports who determine them.

I wouldn't call those compensation as she was supremely weak after the nerfs and got knocked out of botlane unless her mains found her available for a while. There's a reason why they were on different patches. BTW, it still doesn't fix the OPs statement about ADCs being overly-compensated to OP status.

See, this post offers nothing. Edit: Since this has downvotes, bring up an argument. The comments are a place for discussion. Change my mind with words. People upvoted this bandwagon post without realizing OP knows nothing. You're crying about an issue Riot stated they're working on. You haven't even seen what they're offering before crying on the boards about it. You're following the bandwagon but not offering any actual evidence to claim Riot won't do anything properly. You're just making baseless claims. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. So let's deconstruct this post and why it's bad: > 1) parallel compensation buffs negate any and all nerfs, resulting in the ADC general power level being unchanged. I can easily bring out nerfs for ADCs this season and show you how poorly compensated they've been. Twitch still got a net loss, Vayne has been indirectly nerfed to the gutter ever since Patch 8.1, Caitlyn was not compensated for the runaans nerf and simply became stronger due to more nerfs to other ADCs, Xayah has been getting hammered down slowly despite her kit's strength, Kai'Sa recently got nerfed, Kalista got gutted, Kog'maw got slammed, and Lucian has gotten only one buff after his streak of nerfs. Bring up those compensation buffs. I only see those for duskblade users this season. > 2) Riot releases solid nerfs but then ADC mains break out of the wood-works in full force to cry, and riot hot-fix buffs ADC's back to being busted. ADCs being weak 2017 was a true case where the assassin/lethality meta made ADCs useless. It sucks to have your ADC feed to the midlaner or jungler constantly with no way to counter them. There's also the issue that tanks are much more of a pain to kill if ADCs are weak. There are no hot-fix buffs to make ADCs busted because that's an entire role. And you can't say marskmen either because the entire class isn't busted currently either. Bring up a hot-fix that made the entire ADC roster ridiculously busted. > 3) Riot changes nothing, and makes excuses "we're still working on bot lane" "we're not convinced there's a problem" "our data suggests adc is fine" You clearly don't go to the Dev Corner nor do you read. Riot clearly state they believe there's a problem with critical strike items and want to tone down the squishy-to-squishy damage late game. They never stated ADCs are fine or they're convinced there isn't a problem. Again, you make claims and offer no evidence. > Riot just delays again "adc needs to be fixed but it won't happen until pre-season 9, we need to work on nerfing whatever counters adc's right now" You do realize Patch 8.10 is introducing massive changes to ADCs. In addition, Riot has been buffing assassins and toplaners nonstop. This last bit is just an assumption with a belief that Riot will fail. But Riot has had many successes with: - Clash - VGUs - Champion Releases - Toplane Buffs - Pre-season 8 Fixes So to you, you are entitled to state your opinion and claim how the game's state is not being addressed. But your vent doesn't mean you are right.

Kalista should be S-tier.

TBH, Gnar albeit annoying was actually struggling outside the laning phase. And tanks are supposed to be countered by ADCs. They're hard to kill for a reason. You shouldn't be targeting tanks in teamfights.

People complained about ADCs. They're getting what they want... ??

> They have high prices because they're items designed to allow the ADC to consistently sustain through damage. If sustain items were cheap, ADCs would be practically unkillable because they could outheal pretty much any damage dealt to them. You're making it seem my point is to cheapen items when it's to influence the game indirectly without having to touch them.

Lifesteal is a sustain item with its counter being burst. They have high prices due to their powerspikes.

Mages just need an anti-AD item early on so they can lane.

Pretty sure a fed Jax shits on me any day as an ADC main. Granted, if I'm just as fed, my team will win fights if I survive - but saying top lane has no influence is bull.

90% of toplane... Well, here we go making up false statistics again.

She's 17/2. Of course she's going to fuck you over. What are you expecting? A fed enemy with over twice your gold income to be easy to defeat?

Your drastic sarcastic attack...

Top with conqueror has a lot of early to mid game presence right now. True damage and a fed toplaner with Conqueror is pretty scary. Pretty sure top has a lot of relevance currently.

I put Galio in my post. Why are you contradicting yourself?

Shorter game duration means less time to play around your opponents, which in League - time is what you always need.

I never said 3 items. I said 2. If you want two then: - Guinsoos + Bloodrazor - Guinsoos + BORK Either way, it's the combination of Guinsoos with his kit and Conqueror that is the issue.

> The true damage numbers feel really bad but they are very misleading. And vayne outdamage on the bonus damage at all points in time during the game. If vayne is hitting a 2k hp target 3 times its a total of 240 bonus damage in true damage. 6 auto attacks and she is at almost 500 damage. Her percent of bonus true damage is far higher then yi's even with conqueror. No, she doesn't. That's misleading and incorrect. Vayne doesn't deal outdamage Yi at all points in the game. Actually, Yi outdamages Vayne. Also, this is sidetracked from my argument. I'm saying Yi deals way too much damage and this is due to Conqueror. There are abuse cases and conqueror needs a look at. Yi is in need in a buff for consistency but with conqueror, any buff would put him out of balance in his current state.

Guinsoos+BORK is mid-game and that's enough for 1000 true damage with Highlander. At that point the enemy has their core items, but not GA. You also have to note the high cooldowns the items have and the issue with Yi just diving in to kill your squishy before you can get to him even when grouped. Or the fact that the 1000 true damage disables you from 1v1ing him. Everybody is weak to CC, but if Yas did 1000 true damage in 3 seconds, would that mean CC is why that's balanced? No. CC is not the answer to everything. And yes, Yi should do more damage than Vayne when in proximity to attack but when he hits ridiculous DPS by mid-game and Vayne is still on IE+Shiv, does it really make sense to call him a perfectly balanced late-game champion.

That's not how Vayne works though. You can't say 3000 true damage divided by 12 is 360 a proc because that defeats your argument. (Silver Bolts only procs on every 3 autoattacks) I'm not completely getting your post since it's structured weirdly for me. Anyways, my argument is that the point Vayne's W can deal that much damage, the game is late-game and she's farmed enough with the tank having that much HP. Yi does the same damage, mid-game, without depending on HP, to all targets. This causes an issue where that true damage causes you to instantly lose the fight since 300 is a great deal for a squishy and the bruiser can barely duel and get off spells due to Yi's AS and Alpha Strike. Vayne can do that much damage over a very extended period of time to a tank. (10-20 seconds without lethal tempo) Yi does it in 3-5 seconds.

Tabis got nerfed and the damage reduction isn't much. It's true damage.

Vayne does 12% of your max HP as bonus true damage which is only applicable on tanks with 8.4K HP and 3 hits if you ignore guinsoos stacked (then 2 hits). That requires a grand late-game for a tank and Vayne to have hit her full-build. She requires 3-4 high AS items with crit to be as bursty as Yi but crit isn't true damage and is greatly reduced with {{item:3110}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3075}} with the amount of AS reduction. Yi does this amount of damage without relying on enemy HP, without conditions other than autoattacks, in a smaller timeframe. A squishy actually lasts longer against Vayne than against a Yi. I haven't seen a Vayne do 1008 true damage with her passive unless it was on Cho'gath.

Let's just take a moment to look at this post objectively. First, I highly like your post. I hope it isn't locked or archived. My hopes lie that this goes into the "Best" category simply due to the discussion it provides. Secondly, despite your post being mostly agreeable - there are things I disagree with. I believe the champion reworks are up to you as an opinion but not for the general player population. I greatly appreciate Swain, Fiora, and Talon. The issue with Talon stems more because the game itself is in a bad state. I highly agree with LCS ruining champions for SoloQ. Hopefully, Riot can create a setting where champions can be numerically set in the different environments until they gain reworks or good changes for their kits. And League taking away the carry potential is something I highly agree with. I remember loving Faker because his individual skill expression could win the game but now he seems bad simply because Riot swayed everything to passive gold gain and team one-sided stomps. I wish we could just focus on threats but there's so much passive gold gain, everyone is a threat. NEACE's points hit home. However, reworks are needed. League needs to modernize and update old champions. Swain, as an example in this post, needed a definite VGU. One thing to note is that Swain's rework failed at keeping the champion's identity. In my opinion, the old Swain's general look was better. Shorter hair and a crow on his shoulder was so good. I disliked how weak and feeble he looked though. He's a noxian general, of course his current walking and clothing matches much more. Anyways, great post.

CC counters everything. That's not a valid argument when talking about the absurdity of damage. "Is Xayah at a 60% WR? Oh, just CC Xayah" "Is Vayne always winning lane? Oh, just CC Vayne" "Is Yasuo dealing 2000 damage an attack? Oh, just CC Yasuo hehe xd" That's not how the game works. Just because CC exists doesn't mean a gameplay event is balanced. What if Vayne was doing 1000 true damage every 2-seconds to you? 1000 true damage is literally over 80% of a squishy's health. With his alpha, he can dodge CC. With his ultimate, he can also dodge CC due to MS and many CC abilities being skillshots. Flash, QSS, Mikael's, tenacity. You know what? If a champion gains a 60% winrate and a 40% pickrate in ranked, why don't we just say "just CC"? It's fine right. Because that's obviously means there aren't any issues with the said champion.

1008 true damage is basically a 30-40% of a tank's normal health mid-game. You would literally need to be Cho'gath in order to absorb all that damage. Typically, a bruiser only has 3-4K health or 2.5K health. 1008 true damage at 20 minutes into the game with Guinsoos+BORK+Conqueror is not a fair option to face against. Not even Vayne does that much damage.