: Hey Ghostcrawler, first of all I want to thank you for opening up a bit of a discussion about the most recent patch cycle, particularly given the hostility of things. With that said, I do feel a couple of misunderstandings are happening in regards to the jungle changes in particular. I haven't really posted on the official boards before, so please bear with me if it's awkward at all, or formatting is subpar. * The stated goal was to limit how early junglers interact with lanes. By reducing experience and putting a delay on the scuttle crab spawning, there is a window of time where you can simply take your red buff, and go gank a lane level 2, then abandon the gank and take the crab as it spawns before returning to a more normal clear path. This also allows you to soak early lane minion xp, which makes up for the lost xp in the early clear to hit level 3 just as quickly as before, while impacting lanes sooner. This rise of a level 2 meta seems to directly contradict the stated goal of the crabs, and is causing even greater frustration than the 2:45 level 3 ganks. I myself have gotten first blood on the enemy midlaner at 1:55 on the game clock with a simple Rek'Sai flash+w. With all this in mind, I would ask how encouraging junglers to play up in to the river this early accomplishes the stated goal of limiting the jungle pressure exerted in the super early game, if anything, it **increases** it. * Even if the above is counterable through other means, the even bigger issue is how much lane priority matters super early game. For a time, we saw smite mids crop up as a response, that would simply wave clear up and smite one crab while their jungler took the other. While smite mid itself proved less than stellar, the concept still worked, and now we see a huge premium on lanes that can hard shove, as river control from the lanes provides your jungler with an easy advantage over the enemy. One of the previous goals was to **de-emphasize** hard shoving laners as a must, but the jungle changes completely revert this. * These things combine to mean that as a jungler, you need a hard level 2 power spike to either A) enter a lane and create pressure before 2 minutes, or B) survive any early pressure the enemy lanes might put on the river, and therefore your ability to grab the new contested objectives. This means picking anything but a level 2 duelist is knowingly putting yourself at a disadvantage and hoping your team can carry you through the early game. This vastly limits the jungler pool to a select few bruisers and pseudo-tanks, going against the vision of diversifying the role that you guys were attempting in the exact same patch with the ruinic echoes changes (those changes were failed, but as everyone acknowledges that and the reasons why, and seems to be on the same page about it, it's not a point that really deserves discussion). * While all the above points are centered specifically on the changes made in 8.10, it begs a certain larger question. **What do you guys at Riot want the jungle to be?** If not the role that influences the game early, and if not the role that influences the game late, and if not a supporting, vision control role (see: the removal of Tracker's Knife), then what is jungler as a role ideally meant to do in your game? Right now, it's hard to see an actual vision about what you want junglers to do, which makes constructive feedback on how to "fix" the role difficult. I would say this is the biggest question I have for the Riot design team after 8.10 even. **What do you want me, as a jungler, to be doing, and when do you want me to have my power to effect the game?** I hope this post didn't come off as too harsh, I tried to be as constructive as possible. I would say the tl;dr of this post comes in the last point however. Until Riot can sum up what they want junglers to do as a self contained role, I don't know that many people will be able to provide more constructive feedback on how to attain those goals and make the role feel good.
This...Literally a longer version of what I posed in the patch notes moments after reading the changes. It seriously concerns me when I can read patch notes and immediately see how this **will fail massively to meet the goal, cause grief for the champion pool and eventually be reverted** and yet it somehow passed the design team's specifications for accomplishing said goals. I think this is exactly why you see _blame Ghostcrawler_ posts. Not saying the blame rests solely on Ghostcrawler, but the design team as a whole. This change was not very well thought out, that's pretty obvious given the state of this patch.
Epimyth (NA)
: After a few days of this change it's becoming very evident that if your lanes aren't winning, or even shoving for that matter that the jungler will suffer. No longer can the jungler stay on par with farming and wisely ganking. I'm finding that more than ever push, wave clear and strong early presence champions are required to win and if you gain early lane control you can destroy the enemy jungler's chances of being useful. TL:DR It's not a matter of if, but when Riot reverts this change or balances significantly around it. **The only real question is how long they plan the leave the game is such a bad state....again.**
Since I can't edit this again, I guess what I'm saying here is that push meta seems strong, early presence champions seem strong and snowballing seems strong. All of this equates to less champion viability. Hope this gets addressed ASAP. Watch LCS and see what the pro team do...
: "Rift Scuttler isn’t the hotly contested objective we’d like it to be..." Says anyone at Riot who doesn't play {{champion:203}} .
Not to mention they did not adjust the time for mark to show up so its very RNG to get the first scuttler with a mark because it could be mostly dead by the time it gets marked.
Epimyth (NA)
: > TL;DR, most jungle camps will be worth less experience early, but the Rift Scuttler will be worth a lot more. The jungler who can win the fight for River Crab TL;DR the strongest level 2 Jungler or the strongest early push mid/rotation on the team will have a HUGE advantage. You're going to limit the viability of junglers with weak level 2 if you do this. Seriously a bad move that you know you will in fact have to change in the future. Why make us suffer in the meantime? I've really been wondering about the design team as of late, this change can be immediately seen as **a bad idea** and Riot doesn't seem to care...
After a few days of this change it's becoming very evident that if your lanes aren't winning, or even shoving for that matter that the jungler will suffer. No longer can the jungler stay on par with farming and wisely ganking. I'm finding that more than ever push, wave clear and strong early presence champions are required to win and if you gain early lane control you can destroy the enemy jungler's chances of being useful. TL:DR It's not a matter of if, but when Riot reverts this change or balances significantly around it. **The only real question is how long they plan the leave the game is such a bad state....again.**
: any champion when ahead tends to snowball the game, but yea i agree on champion viability
Valid point. So far in a few games pacing seems ok. I'm low Gold atm tho so meh.
: Well we have to let it play out a bit. Plus realize a lot of players won't fully understand how to capitalize on that advantage, so it creates a power gradient, rewarding those jungles who are most aware of power spikes.
Agreed and honestly after my first game I feel like the patch notes did a really bad job at conveying this change. I got far more scuttlers than the enemy jungler and we stayed on par level wise despite very similar farm and scores through mid game. Also, scuttler did not seem to be any tankier. In fact, it seemed easier to kill or at least the new health bar made it much more accurate as to how much damage I was doing. Not sure on this yet.
: soooo, lvl 2 jgs like lee and nid should be on the same lvl as mid late game jgs ? Nice logic there bud
Those champions when ahead tend to snowball hard so it is a real concern. Also, Im more interested in champion viability than anything and I think anything that reduces the number of viable champions is a **bad idea.**
: 1) Imagine that, early oriented junglers are more powerful in the early game. 2) You act as though lane rotations aren't a thing... It just means your mid laner making moves to help secure those things are even more important. So start pinging 'assist me' whenever you move to deal with that and ward ahead. Riot wanted junglers to be forced to interact with each other in a more direct and confrontational way and I can think of way worse ideas than simply making scuttle crab more valuable.
I hear you and I agree that it's not a terrible idea to have the jungler brought into the fold of "team play" earlier. However, if they want to do this right they either need to address early power levels of all junglers or simply make the scuttler spawn a little later after both junglers have access to their full basic kit minus ult to help even the playing field some.
: Patch 8.10 notes
> TL;DR, most jungle camps will be worth less experience early, but the Rift Scuttler will be worth a lot more. The jungler who can win the fight for River Crab TL;DR the strongest level 2 Jungler or the strongest early push mid/rotation on the team will have a HUGE advantage. You're going to limit the viability of junglers with weak level 2 if you do this. Seriously a bad move that you know you will in fact have to change in the future. Why make us suffer in the meantime? I've really been wondering about the design team as of late, this change can be immediately seen as **a bad idea** and Riot doesn't seem to care...
3cksd33 (NA)
: [CRASH]/[CLIENT] Unable to Join Game
I had the same issue which just finally cleared. Hope yours did too!
Rioter Comments
Visigoth (NA)
: There is no reason there shouldn't be 10 bans
Fun Fact: In Beta Riot considered not allowing bans in Solo queue [and I was among the crowd that heavily opposed this idea]. That said, I don't really think there's room for 10 bans still though. First of all, it requires the base amount of champions required to play ranked to be raised (not that big of a deal I guess, but it's already hard for alts or new people to get the a variety of champs in roles they want to play ranked with right at 30). Secondly, a ban for each player on the team really doesn't solve anything, people are still going to ban "OP in current meta" champs for the most part. I'd say in 9/10 of my games if I ask for a specific champion banned that makes sense to ban given the state of the meta it gets banned even if it wasn't one of the top 6 most commonly banned champions for that meta. If anything, increasing the number of bans slightly reduces the overall variety of champions viable to play for a given meta. No matter what you guys argue, there will always be multiple strong or "best in role" champions for each patch, that's just how things work. Better balance helps fix this problem and I'd go as far as to say that in 6 years of playing league, now more than ever does the game feel relatively balanced. I honestly think the problem can be solved by further game balancing anyway. Most people ban champions because guess what: they're strong in the given meta. One of the biggest complaints about no bans in solo queue back near launch was that with the game changing so frequently and so many new champions coming out of the gates being ridiculously strong, we needed a way to sort of band-aid the broken champs until they were nerfed. I still think this holds true today and I still think 6 bans solves the problem in solo queue. Competitive play is another story, bans are more strategic and based on countering a team's champion pool. This doesn't hold true for solo queue and that's most likely why riot almost didn't give us bans in the first place. Just my thoughts :]
Preeti (NA)
: Riot with us at live events!
> The North American League community spans both coasts and everywhere in between orly because the way the servers are setup it would seem you only expected it to span the **west coast**.

Epimyth

Level 86 (NA)
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