: New nurf Gamemode!
Dang, When I heard NERF, I thought you meant Nemesis-draft URF. My bad.
: most people didnt want to be ward bots as support but to have more people warding they want to nerf it because people who actually use warding properly (pros) would have too much info and would never do anything
> [{quoted}](name=LordGeovanni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nc1U4xv3,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-02-23T23:58:52.171+0000) > > most people didnt want to be ward bots as support but to have more people warding they want to nerf it because people who actually use warding properly (pros) would have too much info and would never do anything As a support main, I do value vision, But when I jungle, I do have at least one other reason I would go trackers, and that's simply how I use smite. For me, smite was a means to increase clear speed. So I almost never had it available to use on a champion. (Which makes chilling/challenging smite kinda pointless.) So instead, I would just get Trackers and help with the vision game. I'm not sure whether the vision itself, or the fact that I don't use smite upgrades, gave this pick more merit. But I wouldn't be surprised if that was a factor in why Trackers was go to for the pro scene.
Mimr (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Professor Ward,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nc1U4xv3,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-02-23T20:47:18.938+0000) > > Literally because 90% of fights in high elo are started because of lack of enemy vision, increase this, increase the fights. This. Vision is all fine and dandy, but too much of it completely kills aggression. It's also a large contribution to the fact that pro games regularly end with kill scores like 7-4 over a 35 minute game.
> [{quoted}](name=Mimr,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nc1U4xv3,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-02-24T00:54:21.964+0000) > > This. Vision is all fine and dandy, but too much of it completely kills aggression. It's also a large contribution to the fact that pro games regularly end with kill scores like 7-4 over a 35 minute game. I vaguely remember the days when the contention of vision was the game. (And the audience would sarcastically cheer when a ward was destroyed.) I vaguely remember when teams would create their line of vision, and try to defend said line of vision. Which is why I enjoyed the fact that Riot transferred the vision game partially to objectives like scuttler, and the jungle plants. Vision is good, but the fight for vision needs to be short and sweet.
Zalkreai (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAKI6w9Q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-23T03:18:18.468+0000) > > 60 AP on an item isn't slot efficient It's not about the ap, it's about the ghosties
> [{quoted}](name=Zalkreai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAKI6w9Q,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T03:44:02.850+0000) > > It's not about the ap, it's about the ghosties I almost find it strange how the old Twin shadows got removed because nobody used it. (Too expensive for most supports, and mid laners only cared about AP.) Yet when they put it's active on FQC, it became balls to the walls obnoxious. I just wish they took the time to update the art. (When they updated the art for Morellomicon.)
: His late game is fine. Decent damage and good mobility.
> [{quoted}](name=Tsuhume,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AiEWNIF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-16T01:58:35.213+0000) > > His late game is fine. Decent damage and good mobility. His real problem is scaling. Most ADC's scale off a combination of AD, AS, Crit chance, and Armor pen. Which all basically act as a multiplier to their DPS. Ezreal has a DPS problem since he is that spell reliant. He doesn't get the same benefit from AS or Crit chance that other ADC's do. And since he gets a massive mid game spike when he builds Tri force, no one particularly wants to give him a good late game. Of coarse that doesn't make him worthless in the late game, his spells have a much longer range than most AA's giving him pretty good poke. What makes him worthless is that what he's good at, isn't particularlly meta. Tanks are pretty good a body blocking the poke damage made for their weaker counterparts, and because of wormarg's, Tanks can pretty much shrug off the damage you deal.
: there is a difference between being good at protecting adcs and preventing melees from doing anything in the game adcs are not the problem because on their own they're manageable but once tahm kench braum or lulu janna are by their side, you can say goodbye at doing anything to them and at that point, you can only rely on your own botlane to do something which is why top is shit right now
> [{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u1lurGNc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-12T03:34:33.894+0000) > > there is a difference between being good at protecting adcs > > and preventing melees from doing anything in the game > > adcs are not the problem because on their own they're manageable > but once tahm kench braum or lulu janna are by their side, you can say goodbye at doing anything to them > > and at that point, you can only rely on your own botlane to do something > which is why top is shit right now Once you add Braum or Tahm? you just made it a 2v1. If you threw in the enemy Jungler into that, making it a fair fight, and the bot lane still came out on top, then I would see a case for at least one of them being OP. Also in my own experience, if your a melee top laner who isn't specifically a Tank, I would assume you would be a duelist, so you shouldn't really try to engage in an uneven fight. (Cause you specialize in the 1v1)
: To the people saying "Supports are the problem, not ADCs...."
But the ADC's will just cry like and Operatic Deva, (Like they did with ADC 2k17, why is Ziggs bot lane?) all because a) they're only real job is DPS, b) they become useless if they fall behind or can't do damage, and c) they die to anyone else because they're glass cannon. And all said and done, They are obligated to play ADC because that's what works bot lane, with very few exceptions. (Like that sexy Ziggs) But the problem with those exceptions is the ban.
: Honestly I don’t see much issue with shaco. Don’t see him enough and when I do see him most aren’t great with him.
> [{quoted}](name=TheProfezzor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b8wasVyU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-12T01:58:44.620+0000) > > Honestly I don’t see much issue with shaco. Don’t see him enough and when I do see him most aren’t great with him. Arguably, all the problems with shaco, is why Riot doesn't allow him to see the light of day. I'm not sure about AP shaco. Despite the nerfs to his AP build, I did get this season chest with him. But I only ever break him out for the RGMQ. I play him as a trap master, yet I never find that a useful strat on SR, and Riot generally wants to balance around SR.
: Swain needs a buff
Kinda tested him out in Coop VS AI. (mostly just getting an easy first win of day) Based off the item changes, I"m going to try Ludens first. The burst from Ludens may help him farm better, giving him some damage out side of his terrible AP ratios. My only concern would be the fact that he's pretty short ranged, and it means not investing in tanky stats right away. (Compared to say a RoA purchase)
: If glass cannon > tank then something is wrong with balance, glass cannon means you kill someone faster and move onto the next, tank means you are doing everything in your power to win the fight but goodluck taking objectives unless you have runes just for that.
> [{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l86mZG4k,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-03T23:42:03.101+0000) > > If glass cannon > tank then something is wrong with balance, glass cannon means you kill someone faster and move onto the next, tank means you are doing everything in your power to win the fight but goodluck taking objectives unless you have runes just for that. While I agree in principal, in the sense that glass cannons trade off dueling for objective taking power. The line has blurred a bit, as Tanks now have more options for dealing damage to objectives. (including a new rune, along with items such a portal)
: I feel like people like {{champion:201}} fit in the true tank category. He just blocks everything and slows people. Never tries to hurt enemies just defend against them. I also feel like {{champion:12}} fits in the just cc and tank category as well.
> [{quoted}](name=TheSummonerDoom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y5ZcyfBe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-03T08:51:46.365+0000) > > I feel like people like {{champion:201}} fit in the true tank category. He just blocks everything and slows people. Never tries to hurt enemies just defend against them. I also feel like {{champion:12}} fits in the just cc and tank category as well. Funny thing about this is, both champs you just listed are played in the support role. Realistically speaking in LOL, Tanks need some base level of damage just to be effective anywhere besides the support role. Even if you could shrug off most of your opponents damage, you can really lane against an opponent if you can't keep up with your opponent's ability to wave clear. Similar problem for Jungle tanks, they need clear speeds comparable to their counterparts, otherwise, they will get out leveled. So to maintain the mentality of "Tanks should do no damage" is basically relegating Tanks to the support role. And as a Support main, I hate that. Because it means a) everyone looks to me to play the team's tank, b) Any support that isn't a Tank is closed to me and c) Ultimately, the gold disparity on supports makes it difficult to itemize as a proper tank. In the case of Braum and Alistar, they cheat this, because they rely on their abilities for tankyness, more so than itemization. And that's just what makes them good supports.
: I really wish role selection was more flexible
They actually tested the role exclusion feature internally, and scrapped it due to it increasing Q times too much. While their are certain roles I don't particularly like, Making this feature work would require certain roles to be immune from exclusion. (Namely Support)
Azadethe (NA)
: I have my wards by 7-8 minutes, which is earlier than anyone got Sightstone.
> [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OlHyrbra,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-02T03:18:50.278+0000) > > I have my wards by 7-8 minutes, which is earlier than anyone got Sightstone. At first, sight stone was the item I bought when I was already ahead. If your lane was pushing, and pressuring the opponent, having that extra vision meant we could continue the pressure the opponent without getting caught by the enemy jungler. Inversely, if I was behind, I would take a rain check on the sight stone, because I knew I would not be able to secure vision while our tower was under siege. Now I say WAS, because I adapted from that. Instead of getting that sight stone, I would get a Control ward, and my 2nd tier gold item. Since the ward duration is indefinite, I could have uncontested vision of the river brush until it was destroyed, yet if my lane is already ahead, Their isn't much that My opponent can do to try and destroy said ward, except get help from their Jungler. So the new changes don't really impact my opening strategy that much. but now, I don't particularly necessary to finish a tier 3 gold item. (Where I would previously consolidate sight stone with the gold item in the tier 3 upgrade.) Allowing me to get started on my other desired support items.
: Worst feature that Riot added in the game imo, but I get why they added it though. Some people were complaining that the queue times were too long. Me personally, I rather wait 5-10 minutes if it means getting my role than being forced into a role that I don't play for the sake of "faster queue times". I have a technique that I do when I'm in queue to avoid being autofilled though.
> [{quoted}](name=DarkSkinned Papi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NmGVOWbq,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-01-18T03:12:22.384+0000) > > Worst feature that Riot added in the game imo, but I get why they added it though. Some people were complaining that the queue times were too long. Me personally, I rather wait 5-10 minutes if it means getting my role than being forced into a role that I don't play for the sake of "faster queue times". I have a technique that I do when I'm in queue to avoid being autofilled though. Waiting times escalate with more people in the Q. If you don't have a solution for the bottle necking effect, then you can't guaranty a 5-10 minute waiting period just to play the role you want. There's also a potential problem where people just Q up for the support role for the shorter Q times, and strong arm other players out of the roles they legitimately waited for. (Granted this is against the summoners code, but it won't stop people from trying.) You can hope that somebody dodges, (but that would just put the troll back into the Q) but chances are, you would end up dodging, or playing through that match up. And getting back into Q for a decent match means going back to the end of the line. I'm pretty much convinced that Riot really can't compromise on Q times. It's a problem that makes other problems even worse.
: Autofill with ONE role exception
They tested it, and scrapped it. It still left with the Q times getting increased by far too long. (Maybe if people actually played support.)
Mayobe (NA)
: Hey, supports! A quick question for you!
Realistically, it's a shot calling scenario. If your going to push, have a reason, and make sure your reason is clearly stated. Sometimes, pushing in the beginning means getting the level advantage over your opponents, though it runs the risk of messing up your ADC's farm. (more or less so depending on your champions attacks.) Most often, ADC's will complain if you don't do things their way, but I often find the ADCs to be in a poor position to shotcall. They need to stay hyper focused on their DPS, and getting fed, and doing that as a glass cannon tends to get intense. While the support has more freedom to take inventory. Take a higher level view of the game, and make decisions that help the team as a whole.
: It has nothing to do with Sona it's the runes
> [{quoted}](name=nodice21,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K8odOrs1,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-12-18T22:59:38.253+0000) > > It has nothing to do with Sona it's the runes Mana flow band, Every mana potion pilfered by Klepto, Biscuit delivery. And that's combined with the mana gen that's available in the support itemization. (I still enjoy the mana coins.) And the fact that these runes can be combined like this suggests a systemic problem. And it's not healthy to balance Sona around that problem. (Considering that balancing champs around any particular rune set, was something Riot wanted to avoid.)
: I get that. But with the Kleptomania (or is it kleptomancy...) on top of Spellthief's bonuses- it seems prudent to utilize these effects. Like I said- I was able to get my Lich Bane rather quickly- and Klepto kicked in so much I was able to get those elixirs and dominate on skill potency.
> [{quoted}](name=Mister Modesty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1KL0tcTH,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-19T00:55:59.164+0000) > > I get that. But with the Kleptomania (or is it kleptomancy...) on top of Spellthief's bonuses- it seems prudent to utilize these effects. > Like I said- I was able to get my Lich Bane rather quickly- and Klepto kicked in so much I was able to get those elixirs and dominate on skill potency. Honestly as a support main, I highly doubt that Lichbane rush is representative of most Sona builds. (I wouldn't prioritize it over sight stone.) Still, I find that sona works best once she has items. Personally, I do not rely on going full monty on damage. I do poke aggressively, for the Kleptomancy gold, But I invest that gold in Redemption, and Censor, pretty much to turn that poke into an unstoppable enchanter.
IAmWoralo (EUW)
: I am still wondering what Riot's intention was for the zombie wards, whether it was meant for the junglers or for the supports, because the tree it's in suggests it's for junglers rather than supports.
> [{quoted}](name=IAmWoralo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jB3E1jeE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-12-18T20:35:36.955+0000) > > I am still wondering what Riot's intention was for the zombie wards, whether it was meant for the junglers or for the supports, because the tree it's in suggests it's for junglers rather than supports. As a support main, I would consider the tree if I was playing a heavy poke support. Especially one who can proc Electrocute often enough. But at the same time, I have found my vision being supplemented plenty just from the wards pilfered from Kleptomancy.
: 2 is actually a decent amount with how effective armor is against it. Personally I wish that they'd make more lethality item options with varying amounts and abilities.
> [{quoted}](name=Serial Tickler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bIeEEMuy,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-10T15:42:07.424+0000) > > 2 is actually a decent amount with how effective armor is against it. > > Personally I wish that they'd make more lethality item options with varying amounts and abilities. I don't think Variable amounts are going to be balanced. The High Lethality items will be favored over everything else. (This was the case with AP itemization, until they made Deathcap the only huge AP item.) Secondly, having more items means having that much more lethality available. That would likely force Riot to balance Lethality items with smaller amounts, which may affect the kind of power curve an Assassin should have. Last thing to note, and I don't know how many people have been watching allstars. But the pros seem to have went back to the Lethality ADC meta. (Which feels awkward, since Tanks are still strong, and that people have been complaining about the precision tree being the best.)
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: I haven't seen that in awhile lol.
> [{quoted}](name=MrHaZeYo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cfAn5v3y,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-07T10:15:40.272+0000) > > I haven't seen that in awhile lol. I know it got nerfed when they nerfed her W. If Tank Karma is seeing a resurgence, I would guess it would have something to do with the Ultimate Hat.
: I don't know, I still firmly believe that the mana nerf was completely unwarranted and way too much. The damage nerf was enough. Like I just can't keep up anymore, even with all my runes and items.
> [{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pudk7Xzq,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-07T02:32:33.617+0000) > > I don't know, I still firmly believe that the mana nerf was completely unwarranted and way too much. The damage nerf was enough. Like I just can't keep up anymore, even with all my runes and items. As a Sona main, I feel a little conflicted on the matter, mainly because of my rune selection. For the most part, combining mana flow band, Biscuit delivery, every mana item pilfered from Kleptomancy, and ancient coin, meant almost never having mana issues. With that in mind, I could see a point where Sona isn't properly mana gated, but this makes it feel like she's being balanced around a high mana rune set. (Which I thought Riot was trying to avoid.)
Dasdi96 (NA)
: The thing is they want enchanter supports to have to play aggressive in lane with poking and not sitting back afk shielding the adc every time.
> [{quoted}](name=Dasdi96,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkikbKib,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-07T01:07:14.158+0000) > > The thing is they want enchanter supports to have to play aggressive in lane with poking and not sitting back afk shielding the adc every time. I find this funny in context with the Sona nerf, since it was her poke that got nerfed. A majority of Enchanters don't have the damage to poke effectively, and it's often too dangerous to get in range because they often lack an escape or CC. (Save for maybe Janna, Who's disengage potential makes her one of the most reliable enchanters.)
dominusx (EUNE)
: Oh so much tenacity everywhere.
> [{quoted}](name=dominusx,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wepg7N96,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-26T15:51:49.886+0000) > > Too bad it's useless cause you overloaded the game with knockups and displacements. I think Riot has a balancing problem with tenacity. Their having trouble balancing CC duration where it's not completely inconsequential when you have Tenacity, but not overbearing if you don't. (Cause we all know glass cannons won't build it) This is just my personal experience over the matter. > [{quoted}](name=FuhrerRico,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wepg7N96,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-26T16:25:28.218+0000) > > What's the point of juggernauts being strong if they can almost never apply it. In my personal experience, it's often their force of presence. If the enemy has to kite me to not get creamed, I can pretty much force them to lose ground. (e.g. Nasus, who's high siphon strike damage forces their opponent to abandon their turret, instead of standing their ground.) Similarly, you can make it difficult for your opponents to force a fight on your team. Your mobility doesn't matter nearly as much if the enemy is trying to bring the fight to you. The real issue is whether this particular set of skills is actually useful to your team. It seems less so in SR. You can defend in a team fight by returning damage, but you can't start one, so your not a good replacement for the tank. So you need to bring some secondary niche that makes you useful. (e.g. Again, Nasus and his split pushing power.)
Aterpater (EUNE)
: I think Kleptomancy is just faulty design. It's free gold so I don't get how anybody could think at Riot it won't be broken and unbalanceable. So, basically, if the gold/minute is high enough, it will be exploited, if not, then nobody will pick it, no real middle ground. The droprate of different items and such just doesn't really matter at the end. Imo, your "Cooldown 3s to 15s, Gold: 5 to 25" change would only widen the champ pool exploiting this broken item, not much else.
> [{quoted}](name=Aterpater,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEY84mxF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-22T18:42:04.964+0000) > > I think Kleptomancy is just faulty design. It's free gold so I don't get how anybody could think at Riot it won't be broken and unbalanceable. > So, basically, if the gold/minute is high enough, it will be exploited, if not, then nobody will pick it, no real middle ground. The droprate of different items and such just doesn't really matter at the end. > So, imo, your "Cooldown 3s to 15s, Gold: 5 to 25" change would only widen the champ pool exploiting this broken item, not much else. It's not exactly free gold, the opportunity cost is more power from another rune, and by extension another rune tree. And widening the champion pool who can use it effectively is the main goal. By addressing abuse cases, you can balance the rune around a much larger portion of the champion pool.
: Snow Battle ARURF on it way.
Translated: "We're not bringing back LotPK for snow down cause we know that everyone is sick of it by now. (Sorry) So we made this [new[ game mode up on the fly."
: What happened to not wanting to balance champs based on runes?
I suspect correlation and not causation. I'm assuming this is in response between the nerfs to Sona and to Summon Aery. Riot has already mentioned that Aery was a little too potent on a lot of champions, not just Sona. Likewise, they said sona was Strong with several options available in Runes. This leads me to believe that both are getting nerfed for unrelated reasons. And I don't think it closes that option to Sona Either.
: Why are towers always buffed in the weirdest ways?
I can see were Riot's going with this, CHAMPIONS are doing too much to turrets, minions are more or less fine. So they compensate minions with the increased damage to turrets. And we just see this as a net nerf. Riot doesn't want to devalue the pressure that minions have, and doesn't want devalue the importants of wave management. FYI, I don't see any compensation for herald, so this would also look like a nerf to herald as well.
: The reason that turrets have become so unreliable, is actually less to do with the overall damage output, and more to do with the time to kill and mobility changes over the past few years. If you only have to spend 2 seconds to kill an enemy and you can instantly jump into and/or out of range of the turret, then instead of having to consider eating the maybe 6-7 shots while diving that use to be the case. Now you can eat 3, maybe 4, before you get out with a kill. Combine with the ramping damage of the turrets, it's as if they only deal 1/3 of what they use to do.
> [{quoted}](name=deadlychuck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2HAyXbG4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-21T19:38:05.139+0000) > > The reason that turrets have become so unreliable, is actually less to do with the overall damage output, and more to do with the time to kill and mobility changes over the past few years. > > If you only have to spend 2 seconds to kill an enemy and you can instantly jump into and/or out of range of the turret, then instead of having to consider eating the maybe 6-7 shots while diving that use to be the case. Now you can eat 3, maybe 4, before you get out with a kill. Combine with the ramping damage of the turrets, it's as if they only deal 1/3 of what they use to do. Considering that the ADC is glass cannon, and with the enchanter meta, the support is likely glass as well. It's not a surprise to see this issue become more prevalent in the bottom lane. Generally, my answer to this is having enough lock down to deter a dive. But that CC generally doesn't come from the ADC, and a CC centric support is not always in meta.
: and doesn't his Q apply mauramura (sp?) passive twice? or did they fix t hat
> [{quoted}](name=Oh Me So Ornny,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wb63dUJB,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-11-21T13:45:43.474+0000) > > and doesn't his Q apply mauramura (sp?) passive twice? or did they fix t hat I seem to remember them fixing that one.
: Ascension: a great way to build your mechanics
Eh, I kinda disagree, but mostly because it's still ascension, a completely different game mode. While it's definitely true that you can make late game scaling champs work, due to the fixed gold and level paradigm, the fact that it doesn't measure a late game champs ability to actually get to said point, doesn't tell you how usefull that champion actually would be on SR. (Though granted you're only talking about skill) The other aspect is that teamfights in Ascension most likely don't play out the same way as they would in SR. For starters, their are no wards in Ascension, so teamfights become a lot more sparatic than they would in SR. Also, because of the relics. I personally will disengage from an extended teamfight over a relic, simply because their will be other relics that are much easier to acquire. Lastly, there's Wormargs. Which is pretty much able to trivialize the fact that you can't heal by backing. (And if you have Wormargs while ascended, that's an extra F U to the enemy team.) This is to say that the game mode also affects your build path. That the best build on Ascension is probably not the best build in SR.
: If Ezreal is the only champion or there are only 2-3 champions that is broken because of it then yes he is the problem. It makes no sense to nerf something that affects all champions that use it and are in line because one champion is broken with it. Balancing 101, if they nerf the item they may need to buff a number of champions to compensate rather than nerfing the problem child(Ezreal). Then in turn buffing those underperformers may cause them to become OP from abusing something unexpected. All they have to do instead is nerf ezreal but make sure they keep an eye on him to make sure he is still in a good place.
> [{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TsbrhETf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-21T14:07:32.524+0000) > > If Ezreal is the only champion or there are only 2-3 champions that is broken because of it then yes he is the problem. It makes no sense to nerf something that affects all champions that use it and are in line because one champion is broken with it. > > Balancing 101, if they nerf the item they may need to buff a number of champions to compensate rather than nerfing the problem child(Ezreal). Then in turn buffing those underperformers may cause them to become OP from abusing something unexpected. All they have to do instead is nerf ezreal but make sure they keep an eye on him to make sure he is still in a good place. The problem their is that Riot doesn't really have a clear picture yet where Klepto is. A general trend with Riot is that champions get over nerfed, because they nerf the champion first, then nerf their items/runes/whatever, leaving them in a worse state. There's sufficient evidence to say that it's the rune and not the champ, considering that Ez was poorly performing prior to runes reforged. And if you nerf Ez because of his synergy with Klepto, then your effectively balancing him around a single choice in the runes. (Which is what Riot is trying to avoid.) This isn't to say that the specific synergy between Ez and Klepto isn't problematic, but addressing that synergy should happen on the rune side. And it might give Riot the opportunity to address other possible grievances regarding klepto. (E.X. favoritism for ranged champs who can more easily proc it.)
AR URF (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Paper1,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=48VsIbQL,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-18T00:16:44.093+0000) > > Give an example of a tank that indeed takes sorcery as primary and resolve as secondary and then we can talk about whether it is actually used more over resolve as primary. Right now you're just making claims without pointing to details in specific runes. It's just stuff I've noticed while play. People will use aery over grasp of the undying for example.
> [{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=48VsIbQL,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-18T00:57:14.745+0000) > > It's just stuff I've noticed while play. People will use aery over grasp of the undying for example. Riot was intending for the new system to be a "chose your playstyle" not balancing particular classes of champions around specific options. Green tree (or any tree) wasn't meant for being the defacto choice for anyone, even for tanks.
CGHCGH (NA)
: Why is ryze in the new player tutorial thing?
One of the reds made a statement regarding this. I think they wanted to change it at some point. (And it completely fell on the back burner.)
: I Miss The Ardent Censer Meta Already
Your talking about a class of champions who's soul purpose is to deal DPS. Your not going to find much of a middle ground between "kill everyone," and "Get killed." Of coarse the very fact that your the glass cannon means you shouldn't even be self reliant. And require the assistance of your team.
: It doesnt surprise me than the actual concept of burst mage is through aa
AP Burst though AAs, OP have you like, never seen someone doing a full AP Bard? He does pretty decent damage in a short window if he stock piled his meeps.
: Thei thought it was to strong and thei are still testing how thei want to buff her if thei even will.
> [{quoted}](name=ThunderSkelett,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLyxudI1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-04T18:07:24.392+0000) > > Thei thought it was to strong and thei are still testing how thei want to buff her if thei even will. If they are looking for a buff to the ultimate, I personally like to see more steady execute to her damage. Cause currently, her ult only does the increased damage on enemies below 30%. (instead of a more predictable paradime like "increase damage by 1% for each 1% HP missing") As it currently is, it feels like a 1 HP difference could mean the difference between getting that kill or not.
: Riot has that month'ish period where bruisers are strong each year. Then everyone screams "Tank Meta" for some weird reason and we get overbuffed ADC's for six months.
> [{quoted}](name=Old Man Teeto,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1kkVWIv9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-04T17:00:17.380+0000) > > Riot has that month'ish period where bruisers are strong each year. > > Then everyone screams "Tank Meta" for some weird reason and we get overbuffed ADC's for six months. Bruisers often mean duelists. Champions who will out duel anyone (Tank or ADC) if they get fed. Especially for top laners since they tend to have higher level and CS count when Top lane becomes an island. (Because they don't often roam, and their not the Junglers focus.) And it becomes that infamous top lane meta, where the winning top lane Bruiser become a near unstoppable split pusher. As for the whole tank meta. Riot was trying to give Tanks more positional diversity by giving cinderhulk their hyper tank scaling back, along with additional clear speed. Hoping they could be viable either top lane or Jungle. (And the meta Said, "Why not both?") As for over buffed ADC's. it kinda feels like power creep, because Riot felt the need to adjust itemization to allow more variety in the ADC meta. It start with the ADC 2k17 snafu and cry fest, Riot said "okay, maybe we took the Lethality nerfs a little too far." Brought us back into the Apen/lethality meta we just left. Then they buffed BotRK, and as tanks started to get looked at, ADC's were starting to go back to higher DPS builds. And at some point, they buffed the Energized items to better compete with Hurricane. (Instead of nerfing Hurricane)
: Full AD Jarvan dies in seconds, full tank Jarvan doesn't do anywhere near as much damage (or really damage at all). Now if you're talking about bruiser J4 though, he can definitely do both to an extent but is nowhere near as tanky as full tank and can't just R + auto oneshot people.
> [{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WJFg7QpH,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2017-11-04T14:14:32.888+0000) > > Full AD Jarvan dies in seconds, full tank Jarvan doesn't do anywhere near as much damage (or really damage at all). > > Now if you're talking about bruiser J4 though, he can definitely do both to an extent but is nowhere near as tanky as full tank and can't just R + auto oneshot people. I think you may have missed my point. Sure Full AD Jarven will die in seconds, and yeah, Tank Jarven won't kill anything very quickly. But his kit is versatile enough that he may not care about damage or defense. e.x. in a gank scenario, Jarven may not even need to bring the damage himself. He may just go in and lock up his opponent while his teammate kills him. Likewise, a Full AD Jarven wouldn't necessarily care about defense if he kills his target before it becomes an issue.
: It certainly would, but it doesn't lend itself to counter picking. If they were going with an item, I think that's best done with upgrade options, meaning if you want to negate healing, you have to choose Upgrade A over Upgrade B. Items scare me because they often get nerfed into oblivion. And while champs can as well, a counter typically remains a counter.
> [{quoted}](name=RookPusher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JWr3gTs7,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-11-03T19:55:05.338+0000) > > It certainly would, but it doesn't lend itself to counter picking. If they were going with an item, I think that's best done with upgrade options, meaning if you want to negate healing, you have to choose Upgrade A over Upgrade B. > > Items scare me because they often get nerfed into oblivion. And while champs can as well, a counter typically remains a counter. having one champion, designed to counter an entire branch of the support role, is going to end up on the permaban list as long as the enchanter meta exists. The champion itself would be that niche. (And nerfed to insure it stays niche) Also, some of your suggestions would be too absolute for Riots definition of a counter. Riot doesn't really believe in hard counters, and says a counter match up would still have about a 60-40 win ratio. Lastly, a champion's kit will counter pretty much from the word go. (Giving the opponent little ability to play around the counter matchup.) But put that ability on a niche item, an your opponent will have at least a window to play around before you counter build them. (And you may only need to counter build them if they run away with the game.)
: Uh, well I don't think they're OP, but they are boring. They have too many things that negate you going in on an enemy ADC.
> [{quoted}](name=RookPusher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JWr3gTs7,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-11-03T16:34:37.957+0000) > > Uh, well I don't think they're OP, but they are boring. They have too many things that negate you going in on an enemy ADC. That's probably why they're considered OP, because that counter engage gives them that level of reliability. But if that's the case, anti enchanter measures would be a gross over generalization, that would probably hurt other enchanters more. Since a good chunk of their disengage potential is in their CC, not their heals and shields.
: Cuz he has to build damage to do damage. He isn't a tank by default and he isn't a massive damage dealer by default. He has to build into both attributes.
> [{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WJFg7QpH,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-11-04T13:39:27.372+0000) > > Cuz he has to build damage to do damage. He isn't a tank by default and he isn't a massive damage dealer by default. He has to build into both attributes. "has to" is kinda a strong notation which I don't always think applies. Jarven and to an extent, Divers at large, are pretty jack of all trades, and the function they can serve on the team can change based on his build. Sure he may not be a tank by default, but he has enough initiation tools that he can serve as a Vanguard. And if he builds assassin items, he can certainly do assassin levels of damage.
: Tell you what. The tank in this game is generally a mobile nuker with high hp stats. That is because people can choose targets unlike a MOB in a MMORPG. You force them to target you by your mobility, damage and cc. That is why tanks are only moderately durable in this game genre. Your choice will make tanks deal no damage at all to balance their durability, then they will not be targeted at all because you can be ignored and tanks will be eradicated just like pre-tank meta.
> [{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YYhoPcRx,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-03T12:08:03.719+0000) > > Tell you what. > The tank in this game is generally a mobile nuker with high hp stats. That is because people can choose targets unlike a MOB in a MMORPG. You force them to target you by your mobility, damage and cc. > > That is why tanks are only moderately durable in this game genre. > Your choice will make tanks deal no damage at all to balance their durability, then they will not be targeted at all because you can be ignored and tanks will be eradicated just like pre-tank meta. Well some would say that CC is the key that prevents the tank from being ignored. And CC in of it self, also lends to the tanks survivability, outside of their stat line. (When said CC, prevents the glass cannon from attacking.) But that said, the ability to stun lock the opponent isn't viewed as healthy either. As for damage, a base level of damage is necessary for a champion to even function. A top lane tank need to be able to farm effectively while trading with their Bruiser counterparts, and a Jungle tank needs to have comparable clear speed. (Like, the only tanks that don't care about damage are supports) And yeah, that damage is generally tied to their spells, (paired with their CC) and they generally deal more of their damage in burst. (Where Tankyness and DPS are more common with Juggernauts)
: Should I save my IP?
Don't quote me on this, but I believe that there's approximately an 8% increase in the Blue essence you get, by investing you IP in champion shard tokens, and then disenchanting those shards into blue essence. (Once the 6.5x conversion kicks in of coarse, but you would want to buy and disenchant those shards before preseason hits. ) Personally, I've been getting the champion shards anyways because I have a few champions that I still need to unlock. (Based on PBE values, I'm guessing enchant cost is about 60% of what the permanent would normally cost.) So for the most part, I've been buying champ shards trying to get new champions, and disenchanting the shards for the ones I already own.
: Streams. I think you should start with learning adc since you already know the lane. Becoming a better adc will also help you become better at support (and vse versa)
> [{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RcAOB6RP,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-02T01:28:57.877+0000) > > > I think you should start with learning adc since you already know the lane. Becoming a better adc will also help you become better at support (and vse versa) As a support main myself, that pretty much how I got started. But to be honest, ADC is probably my least favorite role right now. (Since your only Job is DPS, you become next to useless if you fall behind. And your whole team depends on you.) Personally, it more about the Champion than it is about the role. Of coarse there's an aspect about farming, which can be stressful, Knowing the champions is the fundamental key to wining match ups. If you are too stressed to practice the role in Norms, try learning your champions in other game modes.
: There's hardly any fighters that ARE ap to begin with. WHAT ap bruisers?
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zgtgl16w,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-02T01:15:58.584+0000) > > There's hardly any fighters that ARE ap to begin with. WHAT ap bruisers? Personally, I don't even think that Bruisers are really good at being classified by their damage stat. Fizz had a Bruiser Build, Ekko had a Bruiser Build, but they didn't itemize AP, even though their Assassin builds do. WHY? Well both were designed with Lichbane in mind, so logically, they would also work with other sheen items such as Trinity force. And generally, TF is a pretty decent item for Bruisers due to the up front damage it offers. But since that damage is their, without reliance on stacking more AD, it doesn't matter too much if those champs were AD to begin with. And since Bruisers only build one or two damage items to begin with, it becomes a bit difficult to justify having ratios that don't impact your AA's. Then it become the point of why even have those ratios. The only way I could see this working, is if you had a high amount of self shield/sustain that scaled off of AP, allowing an AP to have a Bruiser esk kit, with a high AP build. And considering that most AP items better support burst, the one champ that was designed to be an AP Bruiser, (Hey Diana) ended up being built more like an Assassin.
: For the love of god dont buy Doran's Ring or Doran's Blade in doombots
Here's one of my strats with Doombots. Bruiser Cho'gath. Take smite as one of your summoners. Start with Hunters medallion, and take the blue buff for an early level 2. Use your Level and blue buff advantage to bully the bots in the top lane. From their I make use of the Runic Echo with the stalker's blade. This gives me a combination of Poke from the echo effect as well as a source of mana sustain, and chilling smite can help run down enemy bots. And from there, invest in tons of MR, a majority of the enemy champions seem to be AP.
: I'm pretty sure you can only get autofilled once a day so its not "all the freakin' time." Besides, do you remember how long the Team Builder queues were? A good 10 minute wait if you were looking for a support.
> [{quoted}](name=Harry Dresden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PycX2Z2L,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-28T13:58:05.511+0000) > > I'm pretty sure you can only get autofilled once a day so its not "all the freakin' time." Besides, do you remember how long the Team Builder queues were? A good 10 minute wait if you were looking for a support. Personally, I am a support main. So I was flying high with Teambuilder. I could pretty much get into a game almost ASAP. It also gave me freedom to try any off meta pick, essentially because everyone consented to my pick when they readied up. (Even though they would often consent to said pick just because they don't want to wait 10 minutes for another support.)
: Because the rest of us did our growing last year. ;) In all seriousness no idea. But I never played on anything less than level 100 last year. :/
> [{quoted}](name=Arcathos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=InOUrHkZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-28T14:54:54.609+0000) > > Because the rest of us did our growing last year. ;) > > In all seriousness no idea. But I never played on anything less than level 100 last year. :/ That was the very reason why Riot scrapped it. Having that sliding scale slowed down Q times, waiting to find other people willing to play at that difficulty. And most people just put it to the limit anyways.
: Two problems, two rebuttals: 1. Considering she's music based, it's harder not to have some sort of aura effect on her than it is to have one. 2. Perhaps but that's where the skill shot, which she is lacking based on the complaints I've read, comes in. Rhythm games are dead and probably wouldn't work with moba anyways. If people want more than mana-management and positioning on her, there aren't that many options besides skill shots.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aZKs9dsH,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-10-28T05:41:29.150+0000) > > Two problems, two rebuttals: > > 1. Considering she's music based, it's harder not to have some sort of aura effect on her than it is to have one. > 2. Perhaps but that's where the skill shot, which she is lacking based on the complaints I've read, comes in. Rhythm games are dead and probably wouldn't work with moba anyways. If people want more than mana-management and positioning on her, there aren't that many options besides skill shots. I think the problem is people want her to be something that she isn't. She is first and foremost an enchanter, so her first job should be to bolster her teammates, not catch or disable her opponents. Yet she gets a lot of flack for that simply because A) there's not mush skill expression in buffing your allies, and B) There's not much inherent counterplay to those abilities. But both of those problems arn't exactly unique to Sona. I also believe that her fantasy is more tied to her position as an enchanter, than people are willing to admit. That is to say, creating a different mechanic that serves a different function, wouldn't be Sona, even if it would serve the music fantasy. She's suppose to bard, coordinating her teammates with her tunes, not acting as a siren by luring in her opponents. And while a Siren might be an interesting champion concept, it should be a different champion entirely.
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Erockandroll

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