Rioter Comments
: Yeah, but you also have to take into consideration things like logistics. Balancing Sona around AAs isn't really a flexible balance lever.
It is. Her range of maximum effectiveness (passive and Q procs) is within her 550 AA range, and her range of minimum effectiveness is within ability range. Getting in auto range is a calculated risk that practically everyone has to do eventually. If you mean that her AA modifiers are still gated by ability use anyways, sure, argue ways to relieve this burden in her kit - but claiming that the AA modifiers themselves are poor design just isn't true.
: It's kind of bullshit that Ryze gets this much attention
While I agree with most everything here... > 550 range is way too close Just... what? Isn't that the definition of risk and reward? Balance levers?
: I'm biased in the way that i always think about lategame no matter who i play. I also like my games long, and a (decently) bad early game doesn't matter to me as long as we can drag it out to lategame. What will help a Sona carry/end a game lategame? Not Mikaels. Having 600+ AP however? Now that's worth considering. Usual build path in botlane looks like: {{item:2301}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3100}} {{item:3285}} {{item:3003}} {{item:3089}} . If things are especially rough, i'll get {{item:3174}} before moving on to more AP. Note that i have the exact same build path in midlane, minus the {{item:2301}} .
Thinking you'll make it to end-game is an inherently flawed logic, but lets focus on the rest: Sona scales much better through utility than AP. Lich Bane and Luden's Echo only accomplish damage, and while _one_ of them may be excusable if you don't have a better APC on your team, both just kills your budget for some extra burst that your team probably doesn't even need. Archangel's is an ok pickup, but there's no reason to upgrade Tear until you're nearing full build. Rabadon's is the biggest offender. As a support, you just can't afford it. Build Soulstealer if you want to stack AP.
: As someone who plays entirely too much of Sona and not enough of any other champion in the game, my opinion is this; Mikael's Crucible is a waste of gold when straight AP enhances everything your champion does. Movement speeds on Janna, Sona, Nami, Lulu. Damage enhancers on _every single Enchanter_. Healings, Shieldings and Damage are really the least of it when you look at Enchanter kits in their wholes. They don't have terrible AP scalings either. While i understand it's not worthwhile to get Deathcap and Archangels on supports because the items are too costly and really give nothing *else* than AP, on the other hand, an item like Mikael's or even Redemption cause terrible damage to the Enchanter's kit potentials. Sure, you get to negate a stun with Mikaels. Not so useful against knockups and displacements, which are increasingly common. Sure, you get a strong heal out of Redemption... Once every now and then. Meanwhile you have skills on 5 second cooldowns which would benefit massively from you buying Censer, Athene's and more straightforward AP-granting items, like Luden's and Morello. It's just a shame there isn't *more* variety on the enchanter item roster. And yes, i know i'm horribly biased, but i largely prefer strong kits over gimmicky items. League could remove every single item active in the game and i'd be happier for it. !!!!Note; I also understand that not all Enchanters aspire to be late game, AP-steroid boosted monstrosities and also want to remain relevant *during* the game, which building AP, for Enchanters, is really iffy.
If you're maxing [W] first - which a noteworthy minority are doing with success, especially in high elo - Mikael's provides sustain comparable to Athene's and Ardent, heals yourself a shocking amount through Hp5, and it has the strongest item active in the game right behind Redemption. That said, Athene's is still the superior rush because of its sheer efficiency.
DSØ (NA)
: Anyone else find shyvana incredibly broken
No. She has practically no CC, and she is usually a pretty damn good dueler because of her of her sustained damage and %HP proc. If you have trouble facing her, make sure you have BotRK and just stick with someone that can kite her.
: The thing about this is, Warmog's passive triggers some time after you're out of combat. Being hit immediately puts you IN combat, taking damage or not, you're in combat, thus, ending Warmog's passive. On the other hand, Shields prevent damage from being registered, and so, if you didn't do any damage, you don't get an assist and you can't stop a recall. Recalls don't require you to be out of combat to start the channel, it's just interrupted by incoming damage, thus, if no damage is taken, the recall isn't interrupted. Simple, isn't it?
So you can still be in combat with a champion even when damage isn't registered... and a recall will continue... or miss out on an assist... But you can't use Warmog passive... when damage... isn't... registered...
: Wait when did they add this? What a stupid mechanic. Pretty much asking to be exploited.
: I might have not played with Illaoi for a while but why does DoT counter her?
It's a 10 second duration, but for every tic of damage from the victim that duration is reduced by 1 second. So with your average bruiser that just smacks away during the duel, it should last just around 4 seconds. But take for instance Singed: He deals damage every quarter-second on top of DFT every half-second, which means that Test of Spirit will last a maximum of 2 seconds. Any champion can recreate these conditions with Corrupting Pot, DFT, Liandry's Torment, or red buff, letting most (if not all) champions practically ignore Test of Spirit.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: How is sona considered balanced?
Because Ardent Censer isn't.
Rioter Comments
: Illaoi is, in my opinion, the worst Juggernaut design
Let's not forget that her Test of Spirit (the tentacle pull) is practically useless against anyone with a DoT or even the Corrupting pot or red buff burn.
: Having all alternative announcers and maps be time restricted feels terrible.
: The real issue with Invasion
Jinx is love, Jinx is life.
: > [{quoted}](name=FantasySniper,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wjO8NdEo,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-09-09T01:34:52.713+0000) > > The mages are more difficult to win with, especially since mana is still a concern and Rabadon's is basically off-limits. Lux is the best out of them all because of her snare and low ult CD. > > Also: Uranus > Everyone else > https://media.giphy.com/media/6KOXxR2nhRIIw/giphy.gif Honestly, mana isn't an issue at all. Build Morellonomicon ASAP and you'll never have a mana issue again.
> [{quoted}](name=Fairyfleur,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wjO8NdEo,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-09-09T02:08:44.405+0000) > > Honestly, mana isn't an issue at all. Build Morellonomicon ASAP and you'll never have a mana issue again. If your team is proper and picks up the runes, yeah, but I've run out of mana more than once playing Lulu or Janna, and it doesn't help that I've seen plenty of people that have no idea what the runes are or are simply unwilling to step out of the circle to grab one.
Herim (NA)
: Not being able to Syndra R the final boss sucks ass.
The mages are more difficult to win with, especially since mana is still a concern and Rabadon's is basically off-limits. Lux is the best out of them all because of her snare and low ult CD. Also: Uranus > Everyone else https://media.giphy.com/media/6KOXxR2nhRIIw/giphy.gif
: @Riot I'm not usually one to say such things but I feel Ardent needs to be removed
Hah, remember when people practically refused to build it? The only reason it became so strong is because of the on-hit healing portion, it doesn't need to be removed when it was otherwise just fine.
Tazret (NA)
: So it's ok when you categorize lee as an overpowered jungler because of his pick rate but not when I do it. K. Anyways 3 of the 5 junglers that are picked most in Korea are tanks, as well as in LCS. Lee sin is picked in soloque because solo que is more about fun, and carry champions tend to work out a bit better. If you look in LCS lee hasn't been picked in forever.
I never called him "overpowered", just meta and consistently effective. You said "top 5 champions", which op.gg doesn't present, instead of "top 5 _picked_ champions _in jungle_" or "top 5 _winning_ champions _in top_". In Korea, Sejuani is at 55/11%, then Rammus at 53/4%, and then Cho is at 52/3%, making the only tank worth picking at a high elo Korean level: Sejuani (Who is a hard counter to Lee Sin at 47/22%) Lee was literally just picked in the LCK Regional Qualifiers (a korean tourney) and both the EU and NA LCS Summer '17 tourneys.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=FantasySniper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2017-09-07T00:01:56.237+0000) > > Hey man, they're both hard as fuck to kill and build practically the same in terms of defense. > > No one's going to try and correct the usage of "tank" when you're describing a hypothetical teamfight scenario, because they both fulfill largely the same positions. They do not serve the same purpose or position in a teamfights situation at all. Juggernauts do not perform an engage very well, nor do they peel for teammates very well. Basically, from the descriptions, they do not perform the function of a tank at all. Furthermore, Tanks have far more durability because they can disable an enemy for awhile and keep it from doing damage at all. Believe whatever you want though, pretty sure there is enough explanations on this thread if you chose to actually read it. If it makes you happy to believe in something that is incorrect, feel free to continue.
> [{quoted}](name=Ðelofasht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2017-09-07T02:05:51.809+0000) > > They do not serve the same purpose or position in a teamfights situation at all. Juggernauts do not perform an engage very well, nor do they peel for teammates very well. Basically, from the descriptions, they do not perform the function of a tank at all. Furthermore, Tanks have far more durability because they can disable an enemy for awhile and keep it from doing damage at all. Believe whatever you want though, pretty sure there is enough explanations on this thread if you chose to actually read it. Juggernauts engage and peel with their damage, much like how assassins or mages can force a 4v5 even if they don't kill someone. Juggernauts almost always make up for a lack of disables with straight sustain. Shyvana and maybe Garen are the only exceptions to this. > If it makes you happy to believe in something that is incorrect, feel free to continue. Same to you.
Tazret (NA)
: Um but like the top 5 champions right now are all tanks according to op.gg
Define "top 5", because op.gg can only organize champions by win, pick, or ban in their respective lanes.
: he said that play rate doesnt make a champion good or bad because they can be fun and attract players like lee is and u said that hes strong because he has a high playrate picking out 1 sentence then ignoring the rest please delete this post if u only want to circle jerk
He said "Playrate doesn't mean shit" and "Lee is out of meta". I said "If he had no place in the meta, he wouldn't have the highest jungler playrate." I'm not circle-jerking, I'm pointing out very simple flaws in logic.
: >Playrate doesn't mean shit >You could gut Yasuo and people would still play the shit out of him >When Lucian was considered a troll pick before his Q cast time buff and indirectly buffed by bork changes earlier this season, he still was rocking an 11% pickrate, because people enjoy him Clearly you didn't read this
Clearly you missed the whole point of what he said. Playrate does matter. Its a very large important criterion in combination with win rate and ban rate. Champions like Lucian, Rek'Sai, and Lee Sin are still being picked even at the LCS level because their kits are so exploitable, not because "they're fun".
: PSA: Juggernauts are not tanks.
Hey man, they're both hard as fuck to kill and build practically the same in terms of defense. No one's going to try and correct the usage of "tank" when you're describing a hypothetical teamfight scenario, because they both fulfill largely the same positions.
: Every champ with a higher pickrate than Lee also has a higher winrate, and most of theirs are way higher than his. Why are they seemingly immune to the "high pickrate low winrate" logic? Who am I kidding? Anti-Lee bias has no rational basis. Nothing will ever convince his haters that he's not still top tier.
Anyone with a high win and pickrate is strong and quite arguably OP. I never implied otherwise, so why give me grief?
: Did you even read his comment before u mindlessly replied?
Did you even comprehend what he said?
Tazret (NA)
: Downvoted, needs more quotation marks lad. Quit slacking. (This is satire. I can't believe I actually might have explain a joke, but if it comes to that, I will). In all serious though, Lee Sin's playrate is so high because he's one of the most fun champions to play in the game. Right now we are in a tank meta. Lee sin probably won't be played till tank itemization gets nerfed and picks like elise and nidalee come back. In the warden introduction post, I thought we agreed to remove posts exploiting hate and outrage for upvotes. Lee sin is not in meta and won't be for a while. All of these upvotes are from these "lee sin is braindead and easy to play" idiots.
Read: Highest Jungler Playrate. If the meta is defined by playrate, how in the hell is Lee not meta? _We are not in a tank meta._ Tank itemization was already nerfed, hence the drop in every prior tank's winrate. Only Sejuani, Singed, Rammus, Cho, and Maokai are worth picking right now. Considering that Maokai is horrendously outclassed by Sejuani, there's really only 4 tanks in the meta right now with the sole unifying factor being that they were reworked after the tank update.
: > [{quoted}](name=FantasySniper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BewWgsW2,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-05T22:14:29.997+0000) > > Lee Sin isn't weak Uh, if Lee Sin's 47% winrate isnt weak, what is? >For all you people that don't know, that high-ass playrate is the cause of his lower winrate. Are you sure? Explain Jarvan, Sejuani, and Gragas then.
Literally anyone with a sub 49% win rate and sub 8% play rate is legitimately weak. Jarv, Sejuani, and Gragas all counter Lee Sin. With how often he's picked, it shouldn't be surprising that their win-rate is inflating off of Lee's deflation.
: Anyone else having constant problems with the forums?
This has been a reoccurring issue for me.
awdaf (NA)
: Why was Stoneplate created in the first place?
Tanks built GA back when it had 60 Armor and 45 MR, and the passive restored 30% max HP. So when they reworked GA, they had to give them a worthwhile armor/MR item to fill that niche, ergo Stoneplate was added. I agree that Stoneplate's active is unhealthy. It grants additional health and causes all sorts of issues when it could just be a shield or damage reduction instead.
: Realistically who wins, yasuo or garen top?
I think it's a pretty even matchup. It just depends on who wins trades.
: Lee Sin has always had a high playrate Even at times where he was considered garbage by pros Know why? Because he's fun Playrate doesn't mean shit You could gut Yasuo and people would still play the shit out of him When Lucian was considered a troll pick before his Q cast time buff and indirectly buffed by bork changes earlier this season, he still was rocking an 11% pickrate, because people enjoy him Lee is out of meta, he has no place in this Cinderhulk Knights vow stoneplate locket meta
If he had no place in the meta, he wouldn't have the _highest jungler playrate_.
: most tanks are good right now bubbi the time for your tank propaganda is over
There's only 5 tanks worth picking, including Maokai who's outperformed by Sejuani in every way.
Zed genius (EUNE)
: Lee is kinda out of meta now, but not because he is bad, it's because he is not a {{item:3193}} {{item:3190}} {{item:1413}} {{item:3109}} champion (usually)
What part of "highest jungler playrate" did you not get?
Rioter Comments
: real tanks already have a bad name
Real tanks have a mostly worthless name.
: I need help with finding my main champion
It's ok to be spread out until you realize which one you want to play more. You want a couple of pocket picks anyways for matchups and/or team comp. Your tastes will change as you learn the game and adapt to the meta and your elo, as well, so don't be surprised if something is working out anymore for one reason or another. From the looks of it, you enjoy champions with a greater capacity to carry, some kind of reliable CC, and nuanced forms of skill expression. As a support main, I can tell that you should avoid the support role - or at least until it becomes something more attractive to you. The mid lane may be the best fit for you, considering the large number of roaming champions you have on your list. To answer your question, here are two picks for each role from your list, and one more champion you might appreciate: -------------------------------- |Lane ---------------------------------------| Pick 1 ---------------------------------| Pick 2 --------------------------------------------| Try Out |- |Top|Riven|Gangplank|Rumble |Jungle|Warwick|Ivern|Kha'Zix |Mid|Katarina|Diana|Aurelion Sol |Bot|Xayah|Miss Fortune|Draven |Support|Sona|Janna|Bard
: Unpopular Opinion: Enchanters as a class aren't well designed, period
Enchanter items revolve around Forbidden Idol, and it's disgusting. Makes other utilities in their kit like CC eclipsed by the exploitation of stacking healing and shielding.
Meddler (NA)
: Base stat changes for all champs is the plan. Different champs will get different changes though of course.
: When Sona heals at level 1
Taric would've been more appropriate.
: What's next. McShaco? Shurima fried Azir? TACO JHIN!?
http://mobaskins.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/leaguecraft-addoaeir.png
: After 5 years of League, I am calling it quits at the end of the season.
Are you right? Yes. Will Riot do anything about it? No. Will we miss you? Maybe. Hotel? Trivago. ###### glhf
: No, it is nothing like the Doran's items. The Doran's line is 1) significantly cheaper right off the bat, 2) more gold efficient, and 3) bought with the intention of being sold back at some point, making them _even more_ gold efficient. And even with all that, a second Doran's item is very rarely the best option (double and triple Ring stacking was only a thing because the passive wasn't unique). You should only occasionally purchase multiple Doran's items, and you should almost never purchase Ornn's upgrades before you've completed 4 items. The only benefit the upgrades give is that they don't consume an item slot. That is in no way worth delaying your build and the items that you actually need in order to succeed. If you purchase the upgrades before 4 completed items, you are gimping yourself and your team. Honestly, people going for those items early is one of the reasons he only has a 33% winrate.
My point still stands. Stupid-efficient stats are worth delaying a new item. The fact that an upgrade doesn't require any new slots to build, and that it's a permanent, cheap stat-stick is why it's worth so much. Ornn's highest winning items _are the masterwork items_. His best build-path right now is rushing Sunfire and Abyssal, then upgrading one of the two depending on the enemy team's comp.
Rioter Comments
: Oh, good lord, no! Just... no! No, no ADC should sink an extra 1k gold into the pure AD IE upgrade. That puts them so far behind on the other items they need in their build. Want more AD? Grab a BF Sword to start working on that Bloodthirster. A finished Bloodthirster is worth way more than 30 AD and a component or two. No, no tank should sink an extra 1k gold into a bit of extra armor and health with the Sunfire upgrade. Grab a Bramblevest, a Chain Vest, Giant's Belt, anything that gets you started on your next _actual item_! The Trinity Force upgrade is diluted between several stats, making each one only give miniscule improvements. It is in no way worth it to delay your next item spike by 1k gold for a bunch of stats you probably don't care about. _Especially_ if, as you claim, it's the only damage item they will build. Start working on your defensive items so you can actually survive. There is almost never a situation where you should be upgrading your items when you have less than 4 completed items (including boots). It is almost never worth it, and you will actually be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you do.
An upgraded IE is just as efficient as a BFS without spending the extra slot and 300g. A Bramble Vest costs 900g and only gives 35 Armor. If you aren't hurting for the GW, 200 HP is worth 5 less Armor and 100g more. (You can't even compare Giant's Belt to that sort of efficiency.) I only said "their only damage item" as a rule of thumb - and it isn't as correct these days. Darius, Jarv, Kled, Irelia, Jax, Wukong, Panth, Jayce, and Riven can all still upgrade one of them for an easy combo of HP and damage they're trying to rush anyways. Saying you're putting yourself at a disadvantage with super-cheap stats is like saying a second Doran's is for scrubs.
Rioter Comments
Sohleks (NA)
: That's still not that good. Basically a slightly larger pickaxe. ADCs need to scale exponentially at that point. Buying more AD delays attackspeed/crit/armorpen/lifesteal. All of Ornn's upgrades are meant to be end game purchases. They put you 1000g behind core items. You buy items for their unique properties first, not the stats.
When the stats are worth more than unique properties, they're worth buying first. Most any ADC has built their Zeal item beforehand, so getting an extra 30 AD on the cheap is worth it. Most any tank that rushes Sunfire Cape would get that extra 200 HP and 30 Armor if their opponent is AD. Most any mage that even bothers to get Rabadon's gets it purely for the AP anyways, so of course they'll get the extra 74. Most any fighter that builds Trinity Force or Black Cleaver builds it as their only damage item, so... Yeah, I think you get the point. The only ones not worth upgrading would have to be the support items, because almost all of their value is in their actives in the first place.
: So Ornn's item upgrades are only meant for late game according to Riot
Don't forget that his upgrades are extremely gold-efficient, making them worth buying before you even hit full build.
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FantasySniper

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