: Patch 9.14: Fallout 76 Edition
I got First Win of the Day bonus after losing a game. Really discouraging seeing the game in this state. :/
Crocele (NA)
: what keystone will lissandra use after the aftershock nerfs come through?
For Burst: Electrocute, Taste of Blood/Cheap Shot, Eyeball/Poro, Ultimate Hunter, Manaflow Band, Transcendence For Poke: Comet, Manaflow, Transcendence, Gathering Storm, Minion Demat, Cosmic Insight
RNJudas (EUW)
: How about nerfing Aftershock for ranged champions?
Lissandra mains have no problem with nerfing Aftershock, we want it GONE. Take a glance at the Lissandra mains discord or Reddit and you'll see pretty much everyone is pissed that they would rather nerf Lissandra than aftershock. She wasn't even strong before people discovered Aftershock on her in August/September. This was before her passive rework in late October, which means Aftershock had a direct impact on her strength. Don't nerf the champion because of the rune.
: > [{quoted}](name=FelixFurry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dExEEkAg,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-27T02:26:06.662+0000) > > There are 3 subclasses of mages: Burst, Battle, and Artillery. _Lissandra is literally classified as a burst mage._ Control mages are classified as a part of all 3 classes depending on the champion. > > Edit: Anivia is a battle mage but is also a control mage. Orianna is a burst mage but is also a control mage. "Burst mage" yeah I can see her doing LBs or Annie lvls of damage.
Check the classification on the wikia if you don't believe me. They took out what made Lissandra bursty a lot over the years.
: League of Legends Marvel Title Card
Somebody needs to put that at the beginning of the League Infinity war trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMkvOHKmVrU
: Battle Mage and Control Mage are not the same thing. Battle Mage is Swain. Low cooldown, almost DPS, tanky/off-tank. Control Mage is lots of CC and/or Zone control. Lissandra is a control mage. You pick her for the strong lockdown she provides and flexible flank paths with her claw. And yeah, the nerfs don't add anything to any identity. They're nerfs. They are just straight up lowering her power.
There are 3 subclasses of mages: Burst, Battle, and Artillery. _Lissandra is literally classified as a burst mage._ Control mages are classified as a part of all 3 classes depending on the champion. Edit: Anivia is a battle mage but is also a control mage. Orianna is a burst mage but is also a control mage.
: > suppose to be a burst mage No she isn't.
Whether you think so or not, she is. Riot wanted her to be a battle mage (control mage, same thing), but they took away the tools to allow her to do that. She has been a burst mage for the past ~4 years and has Riot has kept that identity attached to her. These nerfs don't add anything to any other identity. She is a burst mage.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: also tbh there's no good rune for ap dps/battlemage playstyle. Both comet and aery are bad at it, phase rush fits only some of the champs (cassio, ryze). Lets imagine that some of us are playing Lissandra right now, and aftershock is disabled. Is there any rune which feels good on her? i don't think so
Electrocute, Comet, Aery, GA, and DH all work just fine. They all fit different playstyles, Aftershock is just abusable.
: > [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JA9AsVUn,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-25T00:57:30.529+0000) > > This is the most unthoughtful and biased comment I've seen in a long time. > > Apparently, a rune being broken is justified because "you have to use your brain cells" and you think that champions you don't like "face roll for free laning phases". This literally is not an argument. If the rune was soo broken, why the fuck aren't tank viable? Are you that dumb and unthoughful? Look at the champions that use to run aftershocks, under 49% winrate. This is what I'm talking about the part of the community who never use their brains and give biased comments on people that have thoughtful facts. Don't confuse your opinion with others who use their actually facts and game knowledge.
You...literally just answered your own question. Aftershock's broken qualities isn't that it is abusable on everybody, just users that can maximize the anti-burst properties to dish out their own burst that usually should be risky, and now it isn't. That disparity between users proves that isn't properly balanced. Also, constructive communication leads to better conversation.
: because tanks don't benefit from the keystone as much. They get like 50% increased armor while mages get like 120% increased armor for the duration. Plus the keystone is anti-burst, but tanks play in a more combo-DPS lane. lastly, tank design in league is shit. Most tanks are unhealthy when viable.
All of this is exceptionally true. A broken rune doesn't mean it's abusable on every champion, it also means the rune has such a high user disparity that there are champions that rely on it to be relevant (Lissandra, Galio, maybe some supports), some that can take it but don't benefit greatly from the keystone (referencing the point above, tanks need DPS resistant runes, not burst resistant runes, and that rune also needs to impact their tankiness since tank stats lose value the more you build), and the rest of the champ pool that can never take it, ever. Yeah, Lissandra Galio and supports __should__ be able to take AS as a viable path, but when it's dominant and becomes the only rune they can go to maximize their playstyles, that is unhealthy.
: > [{quoted}](name=Exin0,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JA9AsVUn,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-03-25T01:44:05.631+0000) > > what diversity? your only choose which "damage more" keystone your champ abuse the best and fill rest with more or less decorative runes that become obsolete after 10 minutes into a game Is aftershock the best in damages? No its not, its the best one when it comes to resistance, does electrocute offer resistance? Does Aery offers resistance? Does Comet offer resistance? Can mages runes lethal tempo? Can mages runs conqueror and makes the most use of its passive? No
Not the point. Aftershocks benefit is that short-ranged mages can take the rune and live longer in fights than they would have otherwise, allowing for them to dish out more damage. Lissandra for example before had E->W->Q->R->Q and would have to Zhonya's before getting destroyed in a teamfight. Now you can skip Zhonya's and just dish out a full combo and have enough health after to spam Q after she blows R.
: > [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q2OVtbKm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-15T02:27:25.254+0000) > > What are you talking about? I see complaints about the client all the time. Every patch the client maxes my HDD too 100% making it impossible to almost do anything while it updates Trying to swap champs between too players barely works and is buggy has hell About 75% of the time whenever I click store or loot it takes a whole minute to open, or even worse just doesn't at all alt-tabbing breaks the game unless you play on fullscreen windowed honor screen can sometimes take minutes to pop up after the end of the game
> [{quoted}](name=Invisible Thot,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q2OVtbKm,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-15T03:27:25.699+0000) > > Every patch the client maxes my HDD too 100% making it impossible to almost do anything while it updates > > Trying to swap champs between too players barely works and is buggy has hell > > About 75% of the time whenever I click store or loot it takes a whole minute to open, or even worse just doesn't at all > > alt-tabbing breaks the game unless you play on fullscreen windowed > > honor screen can sometimes take minutes to pop up after the end of the game Don't forget that after you finish your runes and save during champ select, it will ask you if you want to save your runes over and over then reset it when the game finally starts. : ^)
: What does it mean when a Champion's win-rate is not 50%?
A common mistake for the boards that gets perpetuated a lot (and I mean a _lot_) is that win rate dictates strength of the champion **inherently**. Win rate cannot tell anyone directly how a champion is performing, and whether or not it's because they are strong just from their kit. A 50% win rate is a good start for champion balance. It shows that winning games are based on how you play the game, not really how OP your champion is. While there can be arguments on how some champs (mostly ones with high skill caps) shouldn't have a 50% win rate, usually it's a good beginning point. Champions with high skill caps may have low win rates just because in order for you to win, you have to have a base understanding of their play style and patterns in order to be successful. Ryze is an excellent example because he has a more complex kit than someone like Lux. You have to work a bit harder to find equal success. Take Preseason 8 for example. Some marksmen were strong because they could take a double Targon's in the bottom lane and survive a lot better than they could have without one, this led to inflated win rates. Looking at just win rates alone, you could make the assumption that the champion is strong and needs a nerf, or vice versa if the champion's win rate was low. That is a problem, because win rate is only 1 number that has to define a ton of different metrics. So no, not all champions are directly causing undue victories. While yes, it is fair to say that some kits might be strong inherently, win rate isn't a good detector at that. Other things can inflate win rate, like runes, counterpicks, items, and metas. (Like right now, Riven is abusing Conq and Spear of Sojin. Take those away and how strong is she then?) That is why it is important to compare other refined variables. A big one is win rates based on how many games have been played on the champion. This will show you how the best of the best are making use of the champion. If people who play only around 20 games of the champion have a 25% win rate, and those who have 200+ under their belt have a 80% win rate, that skill discrepancy is a huge problem and shows abusability. You should also look at item variance. If a champion can only take one item path and dominate with that, but all other builds don't function on that level, that's a red flag. Play rate is a huge inflation number. If a champion isn't popular but has a high win rate, that means the mains are inflating the win rate, not necessarily because they are strong. Others include win rate by region, role popularity, skill leveling, rune choice popularity, ban rate, and win rate by game time. It's easy to use 1 number to describe frustration with someone you think needs nerfs, but true balance must use data from all points in order for it to be accurate. Don't get me wrong, win rate is a good starting point to see champion strength, but you can't use that as your only reasoning.
Aeq99 (EUNE)
: 646,454 Taliyah main here. While she can find success in the mid lane, there are far more champions who can do her job better. As for abilities: Passive: I agree, they should reduce the movement speed bonus she gets so they can buff something else. Q: I wish we could get the AoE back but I know thats never gonna happen. Riot doesnt want her back in the state where she just pushes and roams w/o even interacting with her opponent. Movement speed back on Worked Ground is a good change and I dont understand why it had to be removed. Also, couldn't they just make her Q deal less damage to monsters ONLY instead of minions and monsters? She wasnt pushing waves as fast as with the AoE and I felt it was fine, now she cant clear a single melee minion. W: Maybe revert the cd nerfs? 12 sec at rank 1 isnt anything overpowered imo. E: Idk I feel like her E is fine? Not sure what they could add here. R: What did u have in mind for R? I think Its fine, maybe bring back the vision it gave but to be honest It doesn't feel that important.
Interesting views! For the R, I don't quite know how to change it to be better in all honesty. Her R has so much situational potential that it pushes her into a niche pick (which is 100% okay, niche picks make the game more interesting) but offering something small to bring more satisfaction would feel nice. The vision aspect would be great! Not quite sure why they felt it warranted removal though.
boneboy99 (OCE)
: ***
Hey thanks for looking me up! It's okay that I'm Silver, it doesn't make what I have to say any less valid. I didn't offer overwhelming changes to her that warp the state of the game, just minor things that would make her feel better to play. I also just wanted to know how everyone else felt too. Sorry you feel the way you do. Have a great day! :D
: I agree on converting the ms back to the worked ground as when I do play her in mid, I still feel like I should be getting it. Though really, I just want the original W casting back. If I'm allowed to have a regular knock up in team fights again so I don't mess up teammates' skill shots, I'd be real happy.
I never really realized that they changed it to begin with! I wish we had it back too, it was so subtle that I didn't notice, but it was nice to have to begin with.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: I mained Taliyah for a while both before and after she became a jungler and I found her game play in the jungle much more interactive and fun than her pre Q nerf mid, so if possible, I'd like her to become better again in the jungle, not just in mid.
Yeah, and that's okay! Champions should have the availability to be played in multiple roles. She just needs a bit of love everywhere, is all.
Rioter Comments
: It doesn't work with sterak's
Correct, both Steraks and PD now have the Unique Passive _Lifeline_, only granting the best of each item, meaning only 1 shield.
: First of all compaired to bork this is not an overloaded item just leaving this here for anyone (riot nerf bork pls ur buffing crit anyways) Buuuut im here to say yas will have a shield at start of a fight when he uses r and then steraks because its op on him too and then pd now giving this shield as well is gonna make it not really fun to face yas (as if it was already) but 4 passive shields in 1 fight calls for so many ***"OUTPLAY"*** mechananics
Remember that Steraks also has the _Lifeline_ passive. The shields won't stack, it will only use the best shield.
: Strange Bug at 12 min
I'm getting a similar problem with my FPS at near the exact time. I'm wondering if it is a bug with the patch. Hmm.
Pyrosan (NA)
: What website do you use to evaluate yourself?
Oh my area of expertise! I've compiled a list over the years of great sites to visit, but it's always good to see more than one considering all of them tell slightly different information! ____________________________________________ ####**_~~The Best Sites~~_** [**_*~~OP.GG~~*_**](http://www.op.gg) A very basic site that gives organized stats for all champions and players. Is more specialized in ranked play but can still be useful in seeing the overall picture. Can also record replays! [**_*~~ Legends.ai~~*_**](http://www.legends.ai) A very well developed analytics platform, Legends.ai allows for players to see a better detailed activity analysis and shows your winrates for each __day__. I highly recommend it as it gives you more than you need. It unfortunately does not provide champion analysis and builds though. [**_*~~ lols.gg~~*_**](http://www.lols.gg) This site runs much like Legends.ai but can show you more about your champions and how well your perform with them. It also shows you your rune choices for each champion, allowing you to copy the image and paste it somewhere else to share them! It also is exceptionally detailed in your ranked performance. [**_*~~ LoLStarz~~*_**](http://www.lolstarz.com) Functions similarly to OP.GG but much more disorganized. Good for an overall picture though. Wouldn't recommend as your first choice, but good for comparisons in stats. [**_*~~ LoLProfile~~*_**](http://www.lolprofile.net) Very much like OP.GG but does not have as many statistics. Is great for an overall, fast view of your performance, but again, would not be your first choice. [**_*~~ LeagueofGraphs~~*_**](http://www.leagueofgraphs.com) A good site for ranked information with some information based around champions as well. Part of the Porofessor site list, it is very similar and gives just about the same information. ------------- I hope this helps with your climb! Remember to compare information between sites to keep on top of how well you do!
NarbYou (NA)
: Check out this link with the same topic. I hope this can be resolved ASAP https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/ask-the-community/Z5qE7E0q-i-just-lost-a-game-because-client-kept-shutting-off-due-to-incompatible-third-party-software?comment=00010000
Please do, I put a evidence based information post on this thread that can tell you exactly what is going on. Take a quick look and it might help a bit.
: I just lost a game because client kept shutting off due to "incompatible third party software"
To update people on the current situation with this bug, it has been addressed as an issue by Riot via their Twitter. _(I'll keep both screenshots and Twitter links in case the tweet gets removed.)_ The bug has to do with the Anti-Cheat Detection System and how it functions in stopping third-party apps from interfering with the game. _This started on 1/9/19 after multiple error reports._ https://gyazo.com/a39d365bff67df11f44b2e96bec8f58a https://twitter.com/RiotSupport/status/1083165854592692224 _And they said they had fixed it the next day. (1/10/19)_ https://gyazo.com/d79ee353876942639bff5354aa07392d https://twitter.com/RiotSupport/status/1083450422050856965 _The issue popped up again and they claim they fixed it this afternoon. (1/15/19)_ https://gyazo.com/d0fdfaeaafe344202b2ffdb0cc063724 https://twitter.com/RiotSupport/status/1085238254088216578 _...but the problem persisted._ https://gyazo.com/2d12e0e9bc6624bab555e35c0dc00c87 https://twitter.com/RiotSupport/status/1085256782728052736 _After doing some research and contacting support, I was notified by an Expert (Hextechnician) that this is a server side issue, not a client side issue. (I blocked the Experts name for privacy reasons.) _ https://gyazo.com/378c3acbc5af7a2c67af64117450679e NA has maintenance scheduled for 1/16/2019 at 3:00:00 PST to 7:00:00 PST. If the issue hasn't been fixed by now, it probably will be at this point. **EDIT:** Please note, you do not have to repatch or reinstall if it is a server side issue as it won't fix anything. If you are still getting the error now, contact Riot Support and create a ticket. If they tell you to repatch/reinstall, it might be because of a problem with your computer and another app. It is hard to tell when the error is legitimate right now because of how many people are getting it at once. You might still get the error after a repatch/reinstall, in this case, it is a server side issue. Also, don't use cheats or search "cheat engine" in your web browser. Under LoL's TOS, they can detect that in the background when you are playing the game or running the client. That can also trigger the Anti-Cheat Detection System (like it should) and cause the error. **EDIT 2:** Minor maintenance occurred tonight and presumably patched the issue for now. Major maintenance later will fix it overall. https://gyazo.com/1aad2574358d40474565bea3e64b72cf https://twitter.com/RiotSupport/status/1085401326962515969
: I've been having difficulty with this error recently too. After a little research, it is a server side issue. You do not have anything wrong with third-party apps. Riot was notified of these crashes a couple days ago and they apparently sent out a fix to the servers on the 11th or so, but they still seem to be happening. Using the HRT does not fix the issue in both reinstalling or repatching. I recommend just notifying Riot Support that the HRT does not fix the issue. From what I can tell, the error occurs after the 30 minute mark, and after reconnecting it crashes ~20 seconds after. I'll run some tests to confirm, but playing ARAMs are probably your best bet right now.
So it seems the time to activate the error is random. People are getting it at 20 minutes, 30 minutes, and 40 minutes. It's very rare to see below 20 though, so Nexus Blitz seems safe enough.
: Crashing due to 3rd party client
I've been having difficulty with this error recently too. After a little research, it is a server side issue. You do not have anything wrong with third-party apps. Riot was notified of these crashes a couple days ago and they apparently sent out a fix to the servers on the 11th or so, but they still seem to be happening. Using the HRT does not fix the issue in both reinstalling or repatching. I recommend just notifying Riot Support that the HRT does not fix the issue. From what I can tell, the error occurs after the 30 minute mark, and after reconnecting it crashes ~20 seconds after. I'll run some tests to confirm, but playing ARAMs are probably your best bet right now.
ASAP NOC (NA)
: 'YOU'RE USING THIRD PROGRAM' MSG POPS UP WHEN I CLOSE EVERY PROGRAMS EVERYTIME I PLAY LEAGUE
It's a known error, I've been getting it too. They said they were fixing it and it was on the server status listing as a known bug. For right now, install the Hextech Repair Tool (https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/224826367-Automated-Troubleshooting-Hextech-Repair-Tool) and repatch. If that doesn't work, use the Hextech Repair Tool again and press reinstall instead. If you still are getting the error, open a support ticket.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: What the fuck are those neeko buffs
I've always been an advocate for changing her passive to have an effect in which: > After using Inherent Glamour, the next damaging ability to Neeko will destroy the disguise and deal no damage. It's like how Mimikyu works when you first send them out to battle in Pokemon. Especially here, you get fooled by the disguise and is a good mind game for the enemy. I don't think the magic penetration is the best route to go here, but it's still nice.
: > [{quoted}](name=FelixFurry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P82rjauB,comment-id=0073,timestamp=2019-01-05T02:12:37.949+0000) > > Right now, as it stands, the game is in a state which laning phase is priority. If you cannot win laning phase, you aren't a viable champion. This leads to champions who excel at early game power. Lucian is someone who comes to mind. These champions have also received direct or indirect buffs that allow them to be stronger in both laning and mid to late game phases. This makes them oppressive. > > There are plenty of options to reduce damage or make it more manageable. _Nerfing damage across the board does not make logistical sense. There are too many factors in place for a generalized nerf to work._ Riot would never go through with that. But here is what can work. > > * Nerfing oppressive keystones with higher CD's or how they proc. > * Taking out power from strong items with high purchase percentages > * Buffing counterpicks and defensive item choices > * Allowing gold efficiency on defensive items to matter more > * Shifting power of champions to have late game presence without early game dominance (and allowing them to hit that late game presence without sacrificing too much/not being able to reach said late game) > > The idea of just hard nerfing things doesn't always work. Unfortunately we are stuck with a knotted up ball of yarn, we can't just take scissors and cut it apart because it will be broken in the end. We have to methodically work on how we can balance the game to have the most effective changes possible without sacrificing the game as a whole. Not completely true. In the current state of the game, early game champions also FALL OFF super early because everythign scales super hard. What excels right now are things that have good earlys and actually scale well. THATS why u are seeing lucians, mages, bruisers take over, etc. Assassins, Tanks basically become useless at 20 minutes. Enchanters and Scaling ADCs never get off the ground.
: Everyone wants to see damage nerfed but no one's willing to have their class nerfed.
Right now, as it stands, the game is in a state which laning phase is priority. If you cannot win laning phase, you aren't a viable champion. This leads to champions who excel at early game power. Lucian is someone who comes to mind. These champions have also received direct or indirect buffs that allow them to be stronger in both laning and mid to late game phases. This makes them oppressive. There are plenty of options to reduce damage or make it more manageable. _Nerfing damage across the board does not make logistical sense. There are too many factors in place for a generalized nerf to work._ Riot would never go through with that. But here is what can work. * Nerfing oppressive keystones with higher CD's or how they proc. * Taking out power from strong items with high purchase percentages * Buffing counterpicks and defensive item choices * Allowing gold efficiency on defensive items to matter more * Shifting power of champions to have late game presence without early game dominance (and allowing them to hit that late game presence without sacrificing too much/not being able to reach said late game) The idea of just hard nerfing things doesn't always work. Unfortunately we are stuck with a knotted up ball of yarn, we can't just take scissors and cut it apart because it will be broken in the end. We have to methodically work on how we can balance the game to have the most effective changes possible without sacrificing the game as a whole.
Dr Dog (NA)
: same icon? also we need your opinion, as a furry, on volibears rivers
The kinkshaming here is unreal, y'all let ashe n' possie drink whatever they please.
: "My Class Is Under Powered!! Stop saying it needs nerfs!"
They fucked over mages with the itemization earlier in the year. They wanted item diversity between mages and gave them plenty of options, but they didn't take into account the problems that actually existed. * {{item:3151}} and {{item:3020}} gave you enough Magic Penetration to burst down any squishy, and they just moved the MP to {{item:3165}} instead, not fixing the main issue. * They wanted the {{item:3802}} trio to be a choice you can make, creating diversity every game. But {{item:3003}} takes too long to stack and {{item:3030}} is damn near useless. {{item:3285}} will always be the best choice because of more AP and a bonus damage passive. * {{item:3907}} doesn't provide anything but raw damage, and is exceptionally situational and therefore never used. * They buffed {{item:3151}} even though it was doing fine just because item diversity sucked. They didn't create diversity in the changes, they just made it worse. I guarantee you that if you look at any mage in the game, their first 3 items will always be {{item:3285}} /{{item:3165}} /{{item:3157}}. Now every mage can build the same items and still be effective, or even more than they have been before. A whole revamp and nerfs of the item system for mages would make sure that they aren't so dominant and oppressive.
Jaspers (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eranell,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jgkZiVxG,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-01-04T05:04:02.904+0000) > > Urgot is one of the less problematic IMO. Though it has a pretty big range one can react to it with enough talent, since it is relatively narrow, unless he caught you with his E. It's damage by itself also is very underwhelming (300+ 50%AD) and in lane his ways of escape are very limited so ask your jungler for help if you cant deal with him on your own. Lastly, killing him is NOT the only way to get out of his ult. QSS cleanses the pull and a rightly timed Zhonya's does pretty much the same even when you got hit by the drill. Yes QSS wont be much use otherwise against him but it is a possibility. Not to mention GPs STUPID ORANGE! Looking above it seems this is where I differ with most people. I hate this ult, more than Pyke's. His Ult has had several buff making him worse, the projectile speed was increased from 2100 to 3200, the time to execute was increased from 4 from 3 and the self rooted has been removed to allow you to run into the enemy team and fear them all. In that time he went from on no one's radar to being pick ban in pro play and has no nerfs since. I expect the next season to start as we left off from worlds. I'd start by nerfing his ult back to release state.
One of the major issues with Urgot is that his ult does 25% of your max health as true damage to execute. That means no matter who you are, tank or squishy, Urgot will kill you. If a tank has 4000 health, that's a 1000 health execute. That in itself negates a tank top lane counter because with his BC build, he will shred armor and execute you. It's also a ranged execute with an AoE fear. Ranged executes are rare (correct me if I'm wrong but I believe his is the only one?) and can catch you even when you should be safe. In teamfights, his fear is super effective at disrupting play patterns and disrupting. And on top of this, he also is extremely tanky at 3 items. He has his weaknesses, I'll give him that, but his ultimate needs some tweaking for him to be in a viable yet not oppressive state.
: This is not ok
When analyzing a champion and how strong they are with statistics, you cannot just use one stat and call it a day. Play-rate has a huge impact and gives scope to win-rate. You also use win-rate compared to games played, win percentages by division, region win-rates, and counter win-rates vs said champ. Using just win-rate to argue your point doesn't prove it, neither does showing it over patch differences. She might have a decent win-rate (because near 50% is what champions SHOULD have) but her pick-rate is low, all things considered. With this, we can guess that her mains are what brings up her win-rate slightly higher than 50%.
: Regarding Lissandra's preemptive nerfs - Why this was carried out the wrong way
I have been playing Lissandra for 3 years, ever since I started playing the game. I have seen her both in and out of the meta and throughout the new passive process. I have to disagree with you on most of your points (not all). > The aftershock build essentially makes it alot easier for players who are inexperienced on Lissandra to function, because it makes her weaknesses less abusable. Yes, and this also makes it easier for experienced Lissandra players as well **because** it makes her weaknesses less abusable. She doesn't have to do immense amounts of damage to be an asset to the team/game. It is indisputable that Aftershock was (in patches previous to 8.23) the best rune on her due to the synergy between the two. It's beginning to fall off now due to mana issues which is understandable. Some (not all) find that they can preform better with other runes (Aery, Electrocute, Comet, GA) than they can with Aftershock, specifically if they want to fill a heavier damage role, but Aftershock does not push them out from being viable. That said, Aftershock does need some revisiting given it's power. > **These changes however have made building her for damage and carrying unviable, as I will explain:** >Lissandra's ability max for damage is q->3 points w->e max. >This is done because of the following reasons: >* The damage from w is much more reliable versus multiple targets >* The root duration at 3 points roughly matches the time it takes for her ult to spread towards a target if you use w then ult yourself and they are near max range. >* Lissandra's e cooldown is extremely long early, making it unusable as a trading tool. It is only used to engage for all ins. >* Lissandra will blink to her e early to root at target with w the moment she enters range to hit them with it in order to lower the amount of time opponents have to react. This can guarantee kills on targets who have flash, as they do not expect the Lissandra player to root them so quickly. >* The low ratio on w (40%) while the ratio on e is rather high (60%) means that e can be allowed to scale with the ap the lissandra picks up as the game goes on. When purchasing luden's first, the ap and 20% cdr help mitigate the delay in putting points in e, allowing the lissandra to do alot more consistent damage with her all in combo using e as a gap closer. >* Lissandra can use a combination of 1 q and w to clear the wave while keeping her long e cooldown preserved for an escape. The changes to Lissandra were necessary. I did not like them either, but it was an understandable power shift. Her new passive, although uncontrollable, offers a lot of back-loaded power. If they did not nerf her somewhere, her power level would be over the moon if she was able to utilize her passive properly. Granted, the nerfs make her a _somewhat_ feast or famine champion, but not by much. If they had nerfed her E damage, it wouldn't have mattered as you stated, it is only used as an engage. Very rarely do we use it for damage. So the best option was to nerf the guaranteed damage on her hit in her W and R. > Addition of 6-12 mr in runes as well as the compensation mr per level for ranged champions stack on top of the damage nerfs to make it impossible for a lissandra to punish an opponent by killing them as her base damages or too low and cooldowns too high/risky early game to trade with opponents in a positive manner. Lissandra really struggles into even small mr purchases like null mantle while ahead until she gets a void staff. Because of the decoupling of stats from the Rune Trees, almost all champions are opting in for adaptive damage instead of the MR shards. Even if they opt into the bonus 6 MR on the last row, it does not impact the game as heavily. It is only 24% of the MR of Mercury Treads. Also, the MR/Armor shards were designed to reduce damage overall in the game, so the fact that they have any impact shows that they are working for their intended purpose. > Another flaw that I would like to point out in the changes is that the mana cost reductions where nowhere near what were expected upon the removal of her old mana passive, resulting in a mana item becoming an absolute requirement for Lissandra. This change alone I believe would hurt the aftershock build alot, as it forces that build into utilizing a mana item instead of functioning manalessly. **_Yes_** > I do not think the cost reductions were effective. as for the q cost change, Lissandra 10/10 rushes q max every time, resulting in a q cost reduction of only 3 mana overall (60-72 down from 75), this has seen Lissandra players become much more mana hungry than before due to how frequently she has to cast it. While the cost on w being reduced by 10 does not mean much as the cost was already negligable at 50 mana for a long cooldown. >Her e mana cost could have been normalized from 80-100 mana to 80 at all ranks, and her q lowered to be in line with other control mages such as orianna (30-50) and syndra (40-80). **_Yes_** > In response to her damages being lowered to create space for damage in her passive, I would like to say that this too is flawed. The passive as it stands is a win-more passive. It promotes you killing a target and fills the negative space that Lissandra has between her cooldowns coming back up, giving her time to retreat after expending them, or press the attack as her thralls chase people down. Lissandra however cannot achieve this fantasy if she does not have the innate damage to kill a target or start a snowball. Lissandra players don't feel like the thralls are happening becuase of how effective they're being, more like it's just because they're in the fight and nothing else. To tackle this passive being a problem on her tankier/aftershock builds damage-wise, the base damage could be lowered and ratio increased to favor ap-focused builds. As I said above, her passive makes her a feast or famine champion. It is a flawed concept, but it is adaptable. But the reason her base damage is so high is to make it so her passive is not useless if she falls behind. Scaling damage from level is better than from items as it makes sure she is still relevant in the game if she only has 1-2 items and it's 30 minutes (exaggeration). > Sadly, due to aftershock/tank players being more accustomed to dealing less damage, they do not see the nerfs as a significant hit to her effectiveness because they pick her for team-oriented purposes such as crowd control or stalling. While damage-heavy Lissandra players are unable to influence the game as they aim to by being a significant aoe damage source for their team and being able to eliminate targets. Damage Lissandra is still viable. The nerfs to her represent a power shift in her kit, not an all out demolition of her ability to carry. If you are able to adapt to the changes, you are able to find equal success from the previous iteration of her kit. I agree with you that her kit needs to be more finely tuned, as we expect it will in the coming patches as she finds her footing in the game and people become more accustomed to her new ability. It's good that we are openly having this discussion. Hopefully Riot allows multiple variations in her playstyle without one being overtly OP.
: Minion speed change ruins late game
From what I have personally seen so far, if you have 3 inhibs down, you are never able to leave base. Let's use an example. It is 35 minutes into the game. Red side has taken every turret up to the inhibs, but no inhibs themselves. Blue side has taken every turret up to inhibs and all 3 inhibs. Both teams are relatively even in regards to gold and kills. Which side will have more map pressure? Blue, obviously, but by how much? This is where the problem arises. By the time Red side has cleared all 6 super minions and their proceeding minions, the next wave has already arrived. Before, you could clear the wave and you'd have about 20-30 seconds maximum to look for something on the map (a teamfight, small objective, etc.), now you don't have that opportunity. You are forced to turtle to survive, and during that time, Blue side can take Elder/Baron or wait for the minions to stack so fast that they can run in the chaos to end the game. They have way more time to make decisions than Red does. Even with the even kills and gold, you still are at a massive disadvantage, more so than you should be even if they have all 3 inhibs. If your team has gotten all 3 inhibs, you should be at an advantage over the enemy, you did the work and earned a reward. But the enemy should also be able to turn that around depending on how behind they are. If they are even with each other, that turn around should be much easier, but it isn't. Just my thoughts. Take it as they are. <3
: > [{quoted}](name=FelixFurry,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=tMAVs0QJ,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-11-06T08:41:53.413+0000) > There are always some champs that have passives that are feast or famine, and this one isn&#x27;t one that will become extremely hard to balance because of the fact that it is extremely situational. The damage doesn&#x27;t have to be the focus piece of her passive, it can be the AoE slow, meaning that it won&#x27;t be busted. Also, we don&#x27;t know yet if they want to add a static cooldown or something that prevents it from getting out of hand in teamfights, so waiting will be our best bet. yeah i guess as long as the dmg isn't the focus it should be alright, ur right we will have to see, but i do hope its more CC/Utility focused. I'm glad that they listen to the lissandra mains, getting the community involved to improve the game in a healthy way is important. I've played with Liss b4 and and am familiar with her Lore so I do still fail to see how it fits her thematically even if it fits into her kit in terms of mechanics/gameplay. What do u think about the ability to use it compared to the 2nd passive tho? She could get more use out of it or less use.
I waited to respond to this until the patch came out with the passive, and so far I think that she can get more use out of the new passive _situationaly._ The identity of her play pattern has shifted massively from being able to 1v1 to being forces to get into xv5 or xv4 fights where you can get massive procs of your passive. Especially with Dark Harvest, you can get the most use out of your passive because the DH proc will kill them if it activates, plus the reset. She can finally use the full efficiency of {{item:3027}} RoA because her passive doesn't stop the {{item:3010}} Catalyst passive anymore, so her mana issues are, for the most part, solved. I think the passive is way more useful now throughout most of the game and, while it may need to be tweaked, is massively successful in regards to usage and power shift.
: It's 8 damage per soul (on SR) and half on Arams, so you actually need a couple fewer souls to break even with electrocute
No, It's 5 per stack on SR. They hot fixed the damage the day the new patch came out because it was too high per stack. They just haven't edited the tooltip yet.
: Seems really feast or Famine. Either u or ur team does well and gets to keep making the enemy team dislike fighting her, or she never gets to use it and feels a bit more useless. Unlike Morde where u can get in an R on a low enemy that would have escaped and wait for a free kill or when u can get ur entire team to collapse on an Ulted target to turn the fight into a 6/4 with the enemy ADC on ur side the turn the fight around. I feel like this lacks the ability to turn the enemy's advantage into their disadvantage, since its only and additional explosion... doesn't have the same impact it doesnt have enought impact I also fail to see how it fits with her theme like at ALL. I guess i understand they are trying to pay homage to the older passive...but it honestly doesn't make any more sense thematically than the 1st or 2nd passives, and it seems worse mechanically for the game than the 2nd passive even if its better than the 1st. I think they need to go back to the drawing board, purely based on the fact that it could be feast or famine. I don't think we need another champ like Kindred or Draven who can't use their passive unless someone dies, and these are champs that have been notoriusly hard to balance if im not mistaken. dont get me wrong it looks cool, but it doesn't seem like the best idea I guess we will have to wait and see Learn from ur mistakes Rito: Dont make champions or reworks with map traversing abilities, dont make champions with passives that require them to kill opponents, don't make champions that break too many rules at once. If ur not absolutely sure u can't make it work, then pls be cautious.
The thing here is that Lissandra isn't losing anything. Her current passive is going away but her mana costs/regeneration/pool are being adjusted for that. She is gaining something entirely new that will actually make her something more than just her 4 abilities. It also gives her a specific niche that she can fill as a teamfight CC mage that thrives off of participation. There are always some champs that have passives that are feast or famine, and this one isn't one that will become extremely hard to balance because of the fact that it is extremely situational. The damage doesn't have to be the focus piece of her passive, it can be the AoE slow, meaning that it won't be busted. Also, we don't know yet if they want to add a static cooldown or something that prevents it from getting out of hand in teamfights, so waiting will be our best bet. Riot has taken a lot of time to consider this passive (too much imo), and they have taken so much from Lissandra mains to forge a new and thematically impressive passive that gives her what she needs in terms of gameplay relevancy. This will turn out okay.
: I thought the problem with Viktor was his MS/Shield from Q not his overall damage?
_(For Context) [AS OF 11/1/18]_ > **Viktor** > > * _Siphon Power (Q)_ > * Discharge Damage lowered from 20/50/80/110/140 to 20/45/70/95/120 > * Discharge AP ratio increased from 50% to 55% > * _Chaos Storm (R)_ > * Discharge damage lowered from 150/250/350 to 130/210/290 > * Discharge AP ratio increased from 70% to 85% > It doesn't seem like they are nerfing him as much as they are just shifting him to scale with AP more than just his base damage. By going his current meta build, he isn't going for AP, so Riot is incentivizing people to move to going AP instead. They tried to do this with {{champion:555}} Pyke a couple of months back by taking away his base damage and moving his AD ratios higher as to not have tank {{champion:555}} Pyke be a thing. Hopefully it will fix part of the issue with top {{champion:112}} Viktor, but then again, {{item:3025}} Iceborn Gauntlet has problems of it's own that need to be addressed.
Moody P (NA)
: Can you stop nerfing vision?
What I'm seeing a lot from these replies is that "It only affects high ELO, low ELO don't use as many Control Wards so it shouldn't affect them at all." Okay? That isn't the point. Regardless of what ELO a person is in, vision control is still vital to the game and each player has the right to use the 3 Control Wards given because it helps at all stages of the game. Just because someone in Diamond+ uses the 3 Control Ward slots and some people below that rank don't doesn't justify the reasoning behind the removal of vision potential. The only real reason that I can see here _(personal insight incoming)_ is that the developers don't want as much vision contention during games at higher levels of play. They started showing that clearly when they removed wards from the jungle item line, which granted was a beneficial choice as time went on as we found ways to adapt to the lack of vision. But continuing to do that in different areas may lead to complex consequences. An issue that arises from this is that because vision options are being taken away (even though it is only 1 ward slot), it still brings in the chance for a larger change and possibly riskier games. Remember that even the slightest change in the game can result in a huge difference over time. These are just my thoughts. Take them as they are for consideration. Please don't be negative to one another in the forum as this should be a positive and constructive place. <3
: Is Sudden Impact worth on Lissandruh? Need E mechanics explanation
With Lissandra, the Sudden Impact occurs after you recast your E and blink to the claw's location and then damage an enemy champion. Whether or not you want to take SI over Cheap Shot is up to you. If you are going a full MR Pen build, SI will help you maximize a damage rotation with a total of 42 MR Pen (if you have Sorc boots and Morellos). Otherwise, cheap shot is a viable option too.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Yea but {{champion:127}} has Aoe CC on 3 abilitys. Shes got single target hard CC with AOE slow on R, that's also you know, defensive option with aoe soft Cc on self cast. She got an AOE hard CC, and her Q is aoe soft cc. That chained togeather can be a huge impact on teamfights, zoe would be more about trying to poke poke poke or burst a squishy target. Its not really a comparable play pattern the two share so I feel it makes for a bad comparison. Pros and cons, Kits will always have trade offs. Maxing W on zoe makes eather her Q or E worse, and you only get MS out of it. Her R is utility, not mobility. Its extra range on Q, its a passive hit, its a better cast of E. its not mobility. If we gave liss LB levels of dash.... that's not gonna be fun. Edit. Felix pointed out her Q is not aoe cc. I stand corrected, it only applies a slow to first unit hit The shatter damage does not slow. Bit embarrassing to say cuz I played her every now and then for years and never noticed fml.
Constructive Correction: Lissandra only has 2 AOE CC abilities (W and R), Her Q only applies a slow on the first target. It is not often you are close enough to land it on an enemy champion first to apply the slow, using it on minions to poke from a distance is better. If you are referencing building {{item:3116}} Rylai's Crystal Cepter, it is never built as an item on her. Also, Zoe is almost never played poke style right now, her burst is far too valuable. Zoe can burst from a far distance while Lissandra is forced to be close-range to complete a full rotation and burst. I understand how Lissandra's and Zoe's mobility cannot be accurately compared, mostly because Zoe's mobility is reliant on the environment around her (with people flashing and all), but if conditions are right, Zoe can jump with R, collect a flash, and escape easily. But to agree with the top post, it cannot be similar to LB as her mobility is guaranteed whenever she wants. Zoe, again, must rely on her environment for her _impactful_ mobility to be present. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, I apologize if it does. Have a great day! <3
: If I can honestly answer to this from the POV of someone who play Lissandra, I think it will be really overbearing. Q is a low CD spell, giving it 10 base damage along with your new passive easily compensate far too well the dmg nerf you gave on some abilities to compensate for the new passive DMG. The range buff on R seem small but we both know it is huge. I like some of the stuff you did but I really think buffing Q and R range is overdoing it, especially when E give dmg% reduction and that you gain a slow/haste with your passive. But I think the new passive is good for the slow/haste idea! Like it!
I understand the Q and I may change it. The reasoning behind the R is that Lissandra always has to be way to close for comfort whenever she wants to ult someone. Syndra has the same range as Liss but her ult range is 650. Making it 575 for liss just gives her a small amount of leeway.
Rioter Comments
Velasan (NA)
: I like your ideas. The only change I would make is that instead of AR/MR on the E a temporary ice shield would be more thematic. Like how Malphite gains his passive. Have it be a temporary ice shield that breaks after taking the first instance of damage or just enough of a barrier to absorb the first attack. Actually that would also be similar to Viktor Q. In short I'm trying to say I want Lissandra to be the go to champion as an anti diver and anti assassin. Gj!
I was wondering about this without overloading her kit. It wouldn't be healthy if she got the shield every activation. Any idea on how to make it good but also situationalized?
: https://i.redd.it/se4ywax7t0411.png I already posted this in the katarina mains subreddit and it got quite good feedback, the numbers might be off but the general idea is good. So the R change is a complete rework of her R which allows for more thinking and better utilising of the daguer mecanic, maybe the E cast time should stay with this version, but i added it so if ever riot sees this, they will at least give us 0 cast time on E. The general context is to give back some of the old speed without reverting all the rework purposes.
Please explain how you put it in that format, I've tried looking up how to do it FOR MONTHS!!!
Galiö (NA)
: Personally I'd remove the E changes and the MS boost on the passive and make the mark consumption Steal MS like malphite Q. ;) Friendly critique.
Good point, It always felt though that whenever she went in with her E for a full rotation, she was burst way too quickly, but I understand.
: Experiment: Community Patch Notes
{{champion:127}} **Lissandra** "Lissandra was designed to be the anti-melee, teamfight mage, but because of her low range and predictable patterns, she can't start fights reliably or stay alive long enough to do damage. We are upping her damage potential for a maximum rotation and allowing her to get into fights without being 100 to 0. While we are adding damage into her kit, we also want to reduce where she is getting damage elsewhere so her kit isn't so damage opressive." Mana Regeneration Growth: .4 -> .65 Base Movement Speed: 325 -> 330 **Passive: Iceborn** _(Reworked)_ After damaging an enemy champion with an ability, Lissandra applies _Frostbite_. (20 second cooldown) _**Frostbite:**_ Marks an enemy champion after applying ability damage, causing the next damaging ability or basic attack from Lissandra to consume the mark and deal 10 - 150 (based on level) +15% AP magic damage, and stealing the targets movement speed by 8% for 1.5 seconds. ** Q: Ice Shard** _New:_ Reduced slow applies after first enemy hit. (Half of original slow -> 7 / 9 / 11 / 13 / 15%) **W: Ring of Frost** Effect Radius: 450 -> 475 Mana Cost: 50 -> 65 Cooldown: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 -> 12 Base Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 -> 65/100/135/170/205 **E: Glacial Path** Projectile Speed: 850 -> 875 Cooldown: 24 / 21 / 18 / 15 / 12 -> 23 / 20 / 17 / 14 / 11 Base Damage: 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 -> 65/105/145/185/225 _New:_ After recasting **Glacial Path**, Lissandra develops an _Icebound Shroud_, gaining 7/9/11/13/15% damage reduction for 2 seconds **R: Frozen Tomb** Target Range: 550 -> 575 Base Damage: 150/250/350 -> 125/225/325 _New:_ All enemy champions caught in **Frozen Tomb**'s slow applies _**Frostbite**_. (I don't know how overboard I did it, but I really want Lissandra to get a decent passive and be a good laner ;w;) EDIT: I'm adding one more thing because it was ticking me off. {{item:3174}} **Athene's Unholy Grail** _Bugfix:_ Now gives 35 AP because of the Fiendish Codex buff in 8.9.
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FelixFurry

Level 297 (NA)
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