AIQ (NA)
: > Sure, so take my answers here with a _**massive grain of salt**_, especially for the more recent releases as I'd be answering more as a player than a developer. **_I have been off the team for close to 2 years now. _** Gotcha if you have time, what does a lead live designer do? > ... and so when receiving one more recently it just feels off because they have so many even if they didn't get one in a while from the calendar perspective. A big name I hear a lot is Taliyah, who technically has not received a skin since release, only a team E-sport. Players say E-sport team (not championship or conqueror) doesn't count do you agree with that? > My 2cents on monster champions is I like them as a player (I have a personal fondness for Trundle, Rammus, & Tahm Kench). I think we have both had too many monster champions - especially early in LoL's development, but that they also don't have as much skin support as I'd like. I personally believe these are related as the general audience demand for monster champions is split too many ways and skins demand gets heavily diluted as a result. I love my Shyvana too, but yeah this makes sense. I wish that their was a "forcible" rotation though of some sort. > I can't speak to recently, but I agree this definitely existed when I was on the team. I think it's not, that important to them now, since champions like EZ/MF were already arcade and they just added 2 more marksmen. > It was definitely something we were aware of at the time and part of the reason we added that factor to the equation, we didn't let it be the primary factor but it did make us move forward on champions we wouldn't have given the other factors at play. It's a long time to wait if you're a main of those champions though and I totally get why that's a painful experience. Do you know if there is anything to clear this club out? Do you feel that if a champion is approaching the 1k mark he should take priority even over another champion that fits? For instance Karma was selected, but Xerath is a vet in the 1000 day club. People actually REALLY want that Dark Star Xerath skin. Would this not be a better choice? > Maybe, my guess is that Kaisa falls under that sweet spot of high demand and being a Marksman as mentioned above. This actually makes sense. >it's not my favorite arcade skin, but I think the skin looked fine (I'm also very much not a Kaisa or Marksman player). Arcade though is such a popular and universal skinline tons of champions could be great fits, so I can see the disappointment from some folks. If I can be brutally honest, this skin is terrible, (hair/colors/stance/non retro look.) I could forgive the 5 skin spree if this was a great skin, but it's just not... sorry whoever made it. :( You're comments were great thank you very much. I hope you can answer those too.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=0008000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-19T21:24:03.585+0000) > > Gotcha if you have time, what does a lead live designer do? Sure! The title is pretty old, should be updated now. Previously I was the Design Lead on the former 'Live Gameplay Team', which handled all the live game balance, preseason work, and a number of other projects (we did the large addition of new bots for CoOp vs AI, the first big ARAM update, and a lot of bug fixing / QoL stuff) Atm, I'm the Design Lead on one of the R&D teams. I'd love to talk about it more when / if we get close to shipping, but I've been mosty in a dungeon, hence not being able to talk a lot on boards / with league folks. It's hard to jump into these threads when I don't have anything I'm working on that I can talk about w/people. I'm also sadly watching my League of Legends ability getting worse and worse over time. You can see my Season 2 Diamond border, followed by lower, and lower, and lower, and now I'm in Silver struggling to climb back into Gold. {{sticker:sg-soraka}} > A big name I hear a lot is Taliyah, who technically has not received a skin since release, only a team E-sport. Players say E-sport team (not championship or conqueror) doesn't count do you agree with that? I think it counts and it doesn't, so... sorta? Obviously it is a skin, and I like it a lot, but it is limited and not generally available in the store iirc so if I'm a new Taliyah main it isn't available, so in some ways I wouldn't count it. > I think it's not, that important to them now, since champions like EZ/MF were already arcade and they just added 2 more marksmen. I should have been more specific. It's not that a specific theme can only have one marksman it's that each release of the new skins needs to have the majority of lanes / roles covered. I know the recent Caitlyn & Kai'Sa is a counterexample as they came out in the same patch, but generally we stuck to model for multi-year skin lines. Star Guardian for example has both SG Miss Fortune and SG Jinx, but they came out in separate years. That way you could play with all the new skins on the same team which some players really enjoy doing. > Do you know if there is anything to clear this club out? Do you feel that if a champion is approaching the 1k mark he should take priority even over another champion that fits? For instance Karma was selected, but Xerath is a vet in the 1000 day club. People actually REALLY want that Dark Star Xerath skin. Would this not be a better choice? I do think Dark Star Xerath sounds pretty sick. But for the 1000 days, no I don't think a specific arbitrary number is the right approach to hard force a schedule (950 vs 1000 etc), but I do agree that's too long to wait for an avid main of a champion. I know the team has some stuff in the works to try and improve this problem, but I don't think they're ready to discuss it and it would be out of place for me to give any actual details or timeline. > This actually makes sense. Cool! > You're comments were great thank you very much. I hope you can answer those too. No worries, have a great evening! (Now I'm back to the infinity Queue for TFT on PBE :D ) {{sticker:sg-zephyr}}
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-06-19T20:17:03.666+0000) > > It is really difficult. That's partly why I wanted to comment, but I don't blame people for thinking that, nor would I be shocked if many folks don't believe me. It's a really easy conclusion to make. > - Company wants to make money > - Company buffs some champions > - People see overlap on some champions getting buffed with skin releases > Therefor... --> Champion gets buffed to make money. > > This is an even easier conclusion to jump to because video game monetization and marketing across the industry as a whole does have a ton of issues & scummy tactics and imo continues to get worse overall. Visibility on these issues continues to rise and consumer trust has taken notice and dropped so it's easy to jump to conclusions. I mean I don't believe it for a second. You give the same champions skins every year and you ignore others. Players said for years they wanted Dark Star Xerath but you give us Dark Star Karma when we asked for Star Guardian for almost 3 years now. Great, Karma got a dark themed skin but there is always next year right? Always making one champion wait for the skins they actually want on a champ but giving those high dollar and better skins for Lux, Ezreal, Riven, and new champions. The community just doesn't care anymore because you have never cared. We still technically don't have a Taliyah skin. Where is that? Don't lie. If Developers actually cared about Karma they would be giving her the mini VGU she deserved for 6 years now. Instead Riot Games buffed her and then nerfed her right after. Notice a trend? Buff a champion when a skin comes out. So try to convince me you guys actually care. You don't. If you did you would be actually listening to the Taliyah and Xertah mains still waiting for a skin.
> [{quoted}](name=Winterkill,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-06-19T20:53:04.839+0000) > > I mean I don't believe it for a second. You give the same champions skins every year and you ignore others. Players said for years they wanted Dark Star Xerath but you give us Dark Star Karma when we asked for Star Guardian for almost 3 years now. Great, Karma got a dark themed skin but there is always next year right? Always making one champion wait for the skins they actually want on a champ but giving those high dollar and better skins for Lux, Ezreal, Riven, and new champions. The community just doesn't care anymore because you have never cared. We still technically don't have a Taliyah skin. Where is that? > > Don't lie. If Developers actually cared about Karma they would be giving her the mini VGU she deserved for 6 years now. Instead Riot Games buffed her and then nerfed her right after. Notice a trend? Buff a champion when a skin comes out. So try to convince me you guys actually care. You don't. If you did you would be actually listening to the Taliyah and Xertah mains still waiting for a skin. I think it's critical to separate demand from the boards or reddit from demand in general. Lots of people all over the world play League of Legends so while something may seem unanimous here this likely doesn't extend everywhere else. I'm sorry you don't believe we care, we do, but there isn't really anything I can say to change that perception. I also didn't lie, that comment was referring to the belief that we buff skins to sell more champions. We do not buff or nerf champions to try and sell more skins. It wouldn't even be effective if we did. Additionally, no where in that statement did I say that champions would evenly get skins across the roster, in fact quite the opposite - as the majority of factors going into skins selection are not evenly spreading skins across the roster. We do try to balance the roster somewhat but it's a combination of all the factors I listed.
AIQ (NA)
: I'm genuinely curious and hope you can answer all these questions. I don't feel like champions are balanced around skins. For every buff+ skin I can possibly name a Nerf+ skin. However, I'd like to get your opinion on the following, > - Overall Audience Demand - _This usually overlaps with Popularity. Do you feel popular champions as of recent have taken too many skins? > - Thematic Fit - _What champions work best / naturally in a given thematic / set_ So do you feel Qiyana and Yasuo were correctly given BB skins? They do not fit what was preestablished. It was one of the skin lines monster/void/and non human champions could thrive. Do you have any insight why this was changed? > - Roster Balance - _ Marksmen feel like they heavily outweigh other classes for recent skin releases. Do you agree or disagree? > - Roster Coverage -_ This is basically trying to get coverage on champions who just haven't gotten content in a while_ Have you heard of the 1000 day club? How do you personally feel about the fact that it exist, while this is one of the decision points? > - Champion Balance - _We don't want champions to have the same style of skins all the time, ... Just using the recent BB line as an example that Yasuo received. The orange Chroma for BB looks extremely similar to PROJECT. The silhouettes look the same, Do you feel like in this situation Yasuo was the correct choice? I Don't need you to bash the person that made the choice, just extremly curious. > - Calendar Planning - _ So why has Kaisa been allowed so many skins since her release, do you feel that Arcade Kaisa may have been too much and maybe better on another champion?
Sure, so take my answers here with a _**massive grain of salt**_, especially for the more recent releases as I'd be answering more as a player than a developer. **_I have been off the team for close to 2 years now. _** > [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-06-19T19:46:34.874+0000) > > I'm genuinely curious and hope you can answer all these questions. I don't feel like champions are balanced around skins. For every buff+ skin I can possibly name a Nerf+ skin. However, I'd like to get your opinion on the following, > > Do you feel popular champions as of recent have taken too many skins? I'm not sure, as I haven't kept up with most of the releases. The ones that always felt out of whack to me as a player are a lot of the older champions who got a whole pile of skins in the first few years of the game before we really built any process or structure around releases. This led to scenarios with 4+ skins really, really early (often not great ones), and so when receiving one more recently it just feels off because they have so many even if they didn't get one in a while from the calendar perspective. > [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-06-19T19:46:34.874+0000) > So do you feel Qiyana and Yasuo were correctly given BB skins? > They do not fit what was preestablished. It was the one skin monster/void/and non human champions could thrive. > Do you have any insight why this was changed? >... > > Just using the recent BB line as an example that Yasuo received. The orange Chroma for BB looks extremely similar to PROJECT. The silhouettes look the same, Do you feel like in this situation Yasuo was the correct choice? I Don't need you to bash the person that made the choice, just extremly curious. Qiyana was the first champion that I saw Live before I really saw anything internally - as I've been pretty heads down in my R&D dungeon, so I'm pretty behind on that. I haven't actually looked over the BB skins sorry, so I don't know if anything changed. I have no additional insight to offer on BB skins sorry :( My 2cents on monster champions is I like them as a player (I have a personal fondness for Trundle, Rammus, & Tahm Kench). I think we have both had too many monster champions - especially early in LoL's development, but that they also don't have as much skin support as I'd like. I personally believe these are related as the general audience demand for monster champions is split too many ways and skins demand gets heavily diluted as a result. > [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-06-19T19:46:34.874+0000) > Marksmen feel like they heavily outweigh other classes for recent skin releases. Do you agree or disagree? I can't speak to recently, but I agree this definitely existed when I was on the team. This was usually influenced heavily by the meta structure. When we released a set of skins, we wanted to ensure that you could play an entire team comp across the 4-5 champions per set. Since Marksman were a required part of that comp it meant they got ~20-25% of the skin releases but they are not 20-25% of the overall roster of champions. I wouldn't be surprised if this still was a factor. > [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-06-19T19:46:34.874+0000) > Have you heard of the 1000 day club? > How do you personally feel about the fact that it exist, while this is one of the decision points? It was definitely something we were aware of at the time and part of the reason we added that factor to the equation, we didn't let it be the primary factor but it did make us move forward on champions we wouldn't have given the other factors at play. It's a long time to wait if you're a main of those champions though and I totally get why that's a painful experience. > [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-06-19T19:46:34.874+0000) > So why has Kaisa been allowed so many skins since her release, do you feel that Arcade Kaisa may have been too much and maybe better on another champion? Maybe, my guess is that Kaisa falls under that sweet spot of high demand and being a Marksman as mentioned above. it's not my favorite arcade skin, but I think the skin looked fine (I'm also very much not a Kaisa or Marksman player). Arcade though is such a popular and universal skinline tons of champions could be great fits, so I can see the disappointment from some folks. Thanks for the thoughtful questions & dialogue. Hope that was helpful. I have a little more time this afternoon between builds so I'll try to be around for a bit. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: its hilarious how out of touch the comments are with the rioter response. not to bag on these guys either--it's understandably difficult to step past **conspiracy bias**
> [{quoted}](name=BirdMan tm,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=98mJ4vNn,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-06-19T19:27:54.832+0000) > > its hilarious how out of touch the comments are with the rioter response. not to bag on these guys either--it's understandably difficult to step past **conspiracy bias** It is really difficult. That's partly why I wanted to comment, but I don't blame people for thinking that, nor would I be shocked if many folks don't believe me. It's a really easy conclusion to make. - Company wants to make money - Company buffs some champions - People see overlap on some champions getting buffed with skin releases Therefor... --> Champion gets buffed to make money. This is an even easier conclusion to jump to because video game monetization and marketing across the industry as a whole does have a ton of issues & scummy tactics and imo continues to get worse overall. Visibility on these issues continues to rise and consumer trust has taken notice and dropped so it's easy to jump to conclusions.
Psycrow (NA)
: how do riot go about skins
So it varies. I've been off League of Legends for a few years now so my info might be slightly outdated, but it's usually a balance of the following factors. - Overall Audience Demand - _This usually overlaps with Popularity but not always - this is partly why some champions have historically gotten a lot of skins even though their popularity isn't super high_ - Thematic Fit - _What champions work best / naturally in a given thematic / set_ - Roster Balance - _This is a combination of covering roles / lanes for a given theme, ie we don't want 5 Marksmen in the same skin line _ - Roster Coverage -_ This is basically trying to get coverage on champions who just haven't gotten content in a while_ - Champion Balance - _We don't want champions to have the same style of skins all the time, but we also want champion skins to appeal to the players who play them._ - Calendar Planning - _This is long term (multi month / year) planning. Often a champion that may sense in a given theme has a different skin planned a few months later and so may be passed over_ There may be some additional factors now, but those were the factors we looked at when I was on the team. As much as people like to speculate that we tie game balance to skin releases, **we do not**. I get it, it's an easy claim to make since companies want to make money, but from firsthand experience I've been a lead on the balance team in the past and the personalization team which includes skins (they have a new name though now that I can't recall) and specifically set up structures to avoid this conflict of interest. We release a lot of skins and we do a lot of balance changes, so there will be some natural overlap but it's not planned, which is why you see a number of champs with skins that get buffed and others nerfed, with the vast majority not overlapping. It's just how distributions work. You can also see all the work they've done recently on the balance team to highlight when and how they make balance decisions - skin releases are not, and will not be part of that process.
: Oh shoot, did I miss Kayn's Feeney art?
Yup! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDX0gGZUwAA1Gnz.jpg:large
Retrauk (NA)
: There was a dev blog a while back that said Feeney was leaving Riot I think. Or at least that he wasn't doing the art any more. It was a sad day.
I haven't left Riot, I just switched off of CoreGameplay team which handles all the new champs, updates, balance, etc
Erablier (NA)
: idk Urgot have Feeney art, and if so, was it shown?
Not sure. If not though here it is! http://imgur.com/a/owjyO [](http://imgur.com/a/owjyO)
Elikain (EUNE)
: We need an April Fools mode that switches all of champion art with these :D
I've only made about 30 of these total, so I'd need to spend a ton more time to get the full roster done unfortunately.
: ORNN'S FEENEY ART PLEASE.
Here you go!!![](http://imgur.com/a/XW2er) http://imgur.com/a/XW2er
: I have a couple of comments as an ARAM main myself. First of all, good catch on the whole super minion spawn thing. I didn't even notice that the increased wave spawns would increase the number of supers. Though that will mean a over all, shorter power play for the wining team to work with. Second, somebody may have already mentioned this, but before the removal of the support itemization, it was really useful to have the relic shield line on Melees. Aside from the gold gen it brought to your team, I actually felt like the HP gen was a useful tool for sustaining in the early game. Now buy and large, I would probably say the removal of the support items was a good choice. (Given the mid season changes in particular) But, consider offering melees a similar mechanic in the howing abyss. In regards to the Guardian items. One of the reasons it's underwelming, is simply how comparable it is to other component items. Guardian's hammer in particular, has the same stat line as a vamp scepter minus the HP. I also find that a Lost chapter is significantly more useful that the guardian orb. Partially because the leveling passive, but also that flat mana scales better with the clarity summoner spell. And something I thought was weird about the items in general, it that it seemed to have a low resale value in the shop. I don't recall the SR starting items having such a low resale value compared to it's cost. Lastly, Keep an Eye on Wormargs. It has a really strong niche in ARAM, and it recently got buffed in the tank update.
There's a few cleanup style stuff like the # of minions spawned that we missed the first time around we're adding in 7.10, the most noteable and important being inhibitors coming back online faster. Agree with you on the Guardian's line. The Hammer vs Vamp Scepter is a particularly rough comparison because of how similar their stat line is. The hope with this is giving it a little extra damage over VS will make it a considerable option. Also agree on Orb not really having a good niche, but that's super out of scope of what we can do for 7.10 and I'm not even sure what I would want out of that item atm since caster itemization in general is pretty robust and accessible. This is made even more true since we're moving the fast charging Tear and RoA over in 7.10 as well.
Baka Red (EUNE)
: _Super minion changes:_ More MR, less armor, no more move boost once in combat: All sound good to me. _Cannon minions: _ Alternating the cannon minion between sides sounds like dangerous idea. It might tilt the balance. What advantages do you mean with "Due to their being a small Blue side advantage still on ARAM"? I am unable to see that small advantage unless you are talking about semi/locked screen vision range. _Melee champion extra MR: _ I have no idea how much the 10 MR will affect things. Melee champions are a bit weak currently, so this might be good. _Gold flow: _ gold flow change is not needed. We get the gold we get. This is neither bad nor good change, just not needed change. _Mark/Snowball:_ more damage, not needed. Imo the range of it should be shortened a bit. Damage was fine. And even though there are some who think the summoner spell should be removed, I think it offers options for some champions that require it in abyss - I say this as a person who prefers ranged champions. Many Melee guys need it. _Guardian items: _ I don't care about those. +50 health won't make me buy them. I go for real items from the start as before. Anyways; Thanks for doing stuff for ARAM Riot. However the netchange of the recent/coming changes seem to be pretty much no change or even slightly negative change from my point of view.
Cannon Minions - All I'm saying is that there is still a small statistical advantage for being on Blue Side vs Red Side. Since the map is mirrored, camera positioning / general player aiming / behavior trends (up and right being more natural than down and left for mouse movement) are some of the theories. With that in mind I felt that giving Blue side the additional minion meant this passed a minor (very minor) buff to red side since they'll have access to a bit more early experience. Gold Flow - I'm going to have to disagree with you here. While it's not overwhelmingly off we're not seeing many champion take off the ground without access to bit more income / item access. This was true before the patch as well though. Mark/Snowball - While I still feel this change would be beneficial overall but I've gotten enough feedback on it that it seems unneeded I've pulled it from the patch.
Rengooo (OCE)
: Or alternatively.. New summoner spell for aram: Molotov. Hurl at brush to light on fire. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Lol, I've tried this before on an item back in S3 or S4 but we had to cut it sadly. It was really, really fun watching people run screaming from burning brushes.
: I greatly appreciate you taking the time to look at ARAM and how the large amount of changes have affected the game mode, as well as listening to the community on a large portion of what was said. I do feel that potentially there is some room for improvement in some areas, however I'd like to wait and see how the changes will move the way teams are being played as well as itemization. > Guardian’s Line > Feedback has been pretty consistent that the Guardian’s line is a little bit weak. We generally agree though to different extents on the different items. As a result we’re doing a small +50 Health Buff across the board and an additional small buff to the Hammer and Horn (+5 AD,and +50 Additional Health respectively). I like that there's an eye out for these. They're already exceptionally weak and with the ARAM starting Gold of 1400 there was almost 0 reason to pick them up early. The +20/5 HP Regen on the is {{item:2051}} always going to feel lackluster, though, since ARAM is highly based around speed. Very rarely do I have the time (aside from champions like Mundo or Garen, in which case I would still opt for more HP-based items) to sit and regen while remaining safe. Someone like Katarina will just run in and pick up the quick-kill and dash back out. I feel that there could be room to change it completely to a % Regen passive, something similar to how {{item:3028}} items work or a pseudo-Mundo passive to help out champions like Poppy that would much prefer to have an effective method of "staying in the fight" rather than executing to remain useful. The damage reduction is always welcomed, especially early game, however with a solid amount of Armor/MR being able to be bought early the 10%+ more mitigation is always going to be more useful and will build into better items faster - made worse by the drop in effectiveness on DoT abilities whereas raw stats don't have this restriction. {{item:3184}} is in an awkward spot, I feel the +5 AD and +50 HP will definitely help it out, however it's still going to be outclassed by a BF Sword on most AD's with ratios that are leaned towards high-AD builds ({{champion:119}} ) or others that simply want it for the early poke ({{champion:15}} ). Someone like Vayne will definitely look towards picking this item up, however if she's looking to build a BotRK it's only setting her farther behind towards her completed item and powerspikes. I'm not sure how to balance this item out honestly, as I feel that it will be in a good spot in regards to value for purchasing, however the problems of Doran's-style items selling for abysmal amounts sort of off-sets the incentive to buy them. {{item:3112}} Rito pls. This item could stand a full-scale rework IMO. It's almost never bought and provides next to nothing for value out of the item. Even with the buffs to it, I'll highly doubt it will see any use as building a Lost Chapter will provide a near infinite supply of mana, similar AP, and build into the staple of nearly all AP builds of Morellonomicon which provides INCREDIBLE amounts of value. While I'm all for the extra HP, I'm not sure that the MP Regen is in a healthy spot. It's lackluster as Howling Abyss provides bonus mana regen anyways, and champions that desperately need a large mana pool ({{champion:13}} ,{{champion:69}} ,{{champion:34}}, {{champion:136}} {{champion:38}} , etc.) will often opt into a Tear and/or Catalyst early to offset their costs. The Mana Regen is already ridiculous at higher levels in Howling Abyss, and encourages spell-slinging towards "end-game." I feel that this item could perhaps be in a similar trope to Guardian's Horn, being able to change the mana to a percentage (%) regen rather than a flat amount, similar to how the Mastery Meditation works. It would encourage players to still build those Tears and stack 'em up while providing a moderate amount of sustain. The main issue I see with this is that it could become too overbearing if left unchecked and would be never sold, however if the AP is so much smaller than other AP items I don't see this being too much of a problem. I do enjoy reading about the changes to how cannon minions are going through, this could definitely help off-set the experience transients that are so heavy-handed in ARAM sometimes, I only worry that a comp that has basically nothing until level 6, but spikes incredibly hard, will have that much of an advantage to carry over though. I don't think that this is too much of an issue, mainly because those champions (like {{champion:32}} ) are essentially useless before that point on Howling Abyss. Letting them hit 6 faster against a comp of Xerath, Sona, Ziggs, Varus, and Ezreal will allow them to actually be useful and "fight back" when they've been farming under tower for 20 minutes. On the flip side, the aforementioned comp hitting level 6 faster will only serve to further "stomp" games that would otherwise be somewhat even if XP/Levels were more balanced out. I look forward to seeing how these changes will play out. Thanks again for taking the time to make these changes happen as well as listening to the community - it is greatly appreciated! I hope things will see a more even playing field and less of a stomp between games, as currently it feels that grabbing an inhibitor is almost certain victory if the losing team has no methods of fending off the 300+ AD Super Minions at 10 minutes and giving them time to scale.
"I only worry that a comp that has basically nothing until level 6, but spikes incredibly hard, will have that much of an advantage to carry over though. I don't think that this is too much of an issue..." By level 6 other factors will almost certainly have come into play at that point which would heavily alter the experience difference between teams. Be that kills, a missing / zoned player, etc. I think it's a valid concern but I don't think it'll come into play at all unless a game is truly at a pure stalemate, in which case a swing like that would probably be welcome for both parties. Totally, agree with you on Orb benefitting from a rework. I'm less worried about it's overall power, but from a "is this a well designed and interesting item" perspective it most certainly is not. We decided against it for this patch due to priority and overall value as those champions have solid alternatives and really don't need buffs, and we did't want to just release a flatly 'worse' version, even if better designed item. (we are also getting in the faster charging tear as yet another alternative option). It is still a straightforward and effective new and inexperienced ARAM player starter item though which is why we felt it was valuable to keep rather than just remove.
Sadique (NA)
: Is there any chance we can look into adding more rerolls? My idea is to have .05x rerolls per game, where x is the number of Champions owned. ie 100 Champs owned, 5 rerolls. You get the idea. Any comments?
Not sure about just flattly more rerolls but I would like to make rerolls a little friendlier overall, but that requires client and queue work which is strapped atm with the transfer to the new client.
: For the most part I like the patch now even though I thought that I'd hate it. So good job on that. The shorter games are nicer. The thing I still don't like is the removal of the trio support items. I know champs use them for more gold income, but their actives and passives were very useful especially face of the mountain. I would build it the most in order to protect carries when I was a tank. It really came in handy in a lot of situations. Now I only have locket as a shield. It is useful, but I still can't protect carries as well as I could and support the rest of my team. Same thing with the coin line, as a healer/shielder or Urgot, The passive and active gives me mobility, defense, and utility. I didn't really use frost queen at all though. For this current patch, the super minions are super hard to kill and shell out a ton of damage. Saw one actually kill a player which was pretty funny. I play ARAM most of the time, and I don't really have an issue with their power. I enjoy ARAM even when it is a stomp against me because I know it will be over relatively quickly. My only annoyance is the amount of dodging I see. A good portion of matches I accept get dodged on, and it is always frustrating when you get a champion you can play, someone dodges, use both your rerolls, and get either a bad champion or one you can't play. That has happened way to many times. I don't know if it would be possible to be able to save the champion that someone had when they dodged, and have it selected the next time they enter a match. Not sure if there could be possible abuses of it. For rerolls, it might be a good idea if there is a special reroll that allows you to reroll a champion from a specific class, but instead of it selecting from a pool of champions you own, it would select from all the champions in that class. That might help team balancing a bit or people will just use it on mages and marksmen to get {{champion:63}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:110}} Either way ARAM is still very enjoyable. Keep up the good work.
Totally agreed on the dodging being a shitty part of the ARAM experience. That whole meta layer is a bit out of my control but it's something being discussed. No idea what will come of it but rerolls, dodge penalties, and champ pools are all stuff being discussed in that space. For right now the two of us are just focused on gameplay side stuff since that's our area of focus and what we can implement. Glad you're enjoying it :D
: Can you guys do something about Raptor's Cloak? It builds into nothing now.
Yeah this should be fixed in 7.9 which is coming out very soon.
Rengooo (OCE)
: Any chance you would look at the rate you aquire stacks of {{item:3070}} ? Its was already quite hard to get to max stacks if you wern't a super spammy champ like sona / ezreal. But particularly now with the duration of games being potentially shorter do you think it might be a bit to hard to accomplish {{item:3042}} / {{item:3040}} ?
Manwolf was looking into this. This one is a maybe, but we'd like to do it.
Zielmann (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ou8FmdQG,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:40:51.309+0000) > > Melee Champions > It’s a little inelegant but we’re looking at increasing early survivability of Melee champions with a flat MR boost (currently looking at +10). It’s unsurprising that Melee Champion struggle early in ARAM and they tend to get beaten up by primarily magic damage casters who on a map/mode with access to a lot more spellcasts in a narrow corridor tend to do well. This should soften up some of that early harass, with the buff being less meaniningful later as it becomes less needed later in the game. > I'm nervous to do something like this, when we don't yet know how the changes to the durability items as a whole are going to change ARAM. As it is right now, Cowl is a very good starting item for tanks, though it is getting a small hit in MR tonight. With there being more MR options coming, though, I'd prefer to hold off on any changes to durability for melee champions until we know what the state of the game actually is post-midseason. > Snowball > We like that other Summoner Spells are being seen with increasing frequency in ARAM but we feel that Snowball isn't carrying its' weight in the early game so we're buffing base damage a bit. This will obviously be most noticeable very early game. > Snowball and Dash Damage > 25-100 >> 40-115 True Damage > I have to give this an emphatic "please, no!" Snowball is in a perfectly fine state as it is. It doesn't need to be viable as an early poke option. Even if it is just a buff to the damage of the Dash portion, there are already plenty of kill secures from the Dash follow-up damage. > Guardian’s Line > Feedback has been pretty consistent that the Guardian’s line is a little bit weak. We generally agree though to different extents on the different items. As a result we’re doing a small +50 Health Buff across the board and an additional small buff to the Hammer and Horn (+5 AD,and +50 Additional Health respectively). > I'd still much rather have Doran's items back, to use as disposable slot fillers for times you've got a little extra gold to spend. I also don't feel like any adjustment to stats on these, barring making them super OP, makes them a worthwhile pick when you consider what else you could be getting. Overall, it's just kind of a 'meh' change to these that I doubt will have much impact. I still won't buy them.
We'll have a small amount of time to assess the 7.9 changes before 7.10 has to lock and if we see a large swing for tanks or melees we'll lower or cut the MR change. Snowball dmg feedback noted. I'll keep an eye on this. As for Guardians items we def want to keep the option open for other starting builds but we find these are very forgiving items that still allow players the option of other starting builds in some cases. I think for many characters it's a tough sell but I think we can make that choice a bit more even (BF Sword for ADCs for example). You are of course, as with any starting builds have your own preferences.
Rengooo (OCE)
: This is only semi related, but would you consider changing poro toss on poro king to give the same vision as it does on aram (only gives vision on aram if it hits someone), its quite annoying on poro king to dodge the poro but still have your whole brush revealed.. Just an idea.
Yeah I think this is reasonable. I don't work on the Poro King mode but I'll bring it up with those guys. Good call.
: Please, correct that mistake in your post, you got all the neutral possessives wrong Dx. It is ''its'', not ''it's''. As a grammar Nazi it irks me too much.
Lol, fair enough. Edit'd'
B W P 45 (NA)
: Do you see any possible changes to Aram only accounts FeralPony? As someone who plays Aram almost exclusively, I have noticed a lot more Aram only accounts than in the past. It's nice to get someone that is strong in that game mode but when facing people that only have the best picks it gets quite annoying to deal with. It has gotten to the point where I would say about a third to a half of the people I get queued up with are Aram only. I'm not one to yell Aram only as soon as I see someone with a good champ, but once you queue and get matched with the same people and find they roll the same hand full of champs time and time again it's pretty obvious. I would love to see your input on this subject, as well as a possible solution. Would Riot ever consider unlocking all the champs for Aram? If so people could then be rewarded as they are now with reroll points based on what champions they have unlocked. This way everyone has a fair shot of getting every champ and people that invest more into their accounts get the benefits of more rolling more often.
It's possible we'd do some adjustments to the champ select phase in the future, and it's been something we've been discussing but definitely not for this patch.
: Most Marksman are weak on ARAM unless it turns into a long game. With the new ARAM changes that doesn't happen as often. I think the main problem they have is sustaining health through lifesteal. Minions are rarely saved for lifesteal or you are zoned so you get poked down and are unable to contribute to fights. My Idea is to add some type of vultures that show up around where the minions are dying and land on the wall of the bridge. After Champion deaths they could show up in larger numbers. They can only be attacked by range champions and after 3 hits they fly off. Grants lifesteal, but no gold(so mages won't go after them, unless for fun) and adds to the environment. Thoughts?
I think that sounds potentially fun, but probably has a lot of side effects. It's way out of scope for myself and ManWolf to be considering for this set of changes but it's a cool idea.
patmax17 (EUW)
: Adding MR to melee champs is inelegant, I agree. Why not adding MR to some starting items for melee champs (e.g. Horn)?
Essentially it's because starting items are not guaranteed and starting items can be purchased regardless of Champion Type.
ExHentai (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ou8FmdQG,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:40:51.309+0000) > > we’re looking at increasing early survivability of Melee champions with a flat MR boost (currently looking at +10) Please, no. I don't enjoy a team of supertanks winning the game by throwing their undying bodies at my team. Don't make them even tankier.
While this would boost tanks, this would be a disproportionate buff to squishy melee champions over Tanky ones due to how low values of resists and magic penetration works. Mid-Late game when Tanks are at their peak this should have pretty minor impact.
: Tank you very much, Sir Pony. Also, inb4 "but muh mages", "waaaaaaaahhhhh snowball waaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh"
Snowb@ll getiin buffz
: Sounds pretty promising FeralPony, I like the idea of a flat MR buff but will you do case by case changes if there are outliers?
Unlikely, but it would all depend on the specifics. It's difficult to answer how we would approach potential edge case questions preemptively.
Eedat (NA)
: Are you looking at any direct nerfs/buffs to specific champions specifically for ARAM only? {{champion:37}} {{champion:115}} are practically free wins What about items? Whenever I get a mage in ARAM my first buy is always {{item:3802}} {{item:2033}} and then I never have to worry about mana ever.
No we will not be doing any champion specific balance for ARAM. Stuff that's unique to ARAM we're totally on board for changing though (the starting items, health relics, the global buff etc)
Borsuk (EUW)
: Not sure about "10 MR on all melee champions". While most of them do suffer, many tanks and assassins are monster level threats on ARAM.
It's definitely less elegant than I like which is why I was hesitant to do it for a while, but even the most god tier tank champions with like 1-2 exceptions are still way below their Mage counterparts. I'm super happy to switch to +5 if it's an overswing.
  Rioter Comments
: Games didn't even get that much shorter. They just clipped the worst-case scenarios with the lame back and forth inhib killings until death timers were too long and one side won. That part wasn't fun. It was dumb.
This is a better summary of the goals. It wasn't simply to just make the game on average shorter. It was more about reducing those really long games that don't end.
: Any plans to tailor the grading algorithm for the Howling Abyss map? Because it really REALLY shouldn't be counting deaths and CS in ARAM grading.......
I'm not sure how the formula differs for ARAM but it is specific for the game mode and based off of relative stats for what other players earned on ARAM.
: Is ManWolfAxeBoss and Riot Axes the same person as I have not seen both of them in the same room
No. One plays a mean Draven the other plays a mean Olaf. Though that said... I also haven't seen them in the same room.
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MuE2EArF,comment-id=003c,timestamp=2017-04-24T22:52:25.331+0000) > > Did ARAM players even ask for shorter games? > - Frankly, yes. The feedback was pretty consistent and overwhelming that the vast majority of ARAM players not only want shorter ARAM games but frequently queue for ARAM when want a shorter game length than other game modes. So where exactly are these people? I've been on these forums for a long time, and been playing ARAM even longer. Why do I never hear of these people? Just because you saw a few people demanding shorter games **does not mean that's the popular opinion**. Why not use this thread as evidence that we DO NOT want shorter games? It seems pretty unanimous. A minority made a demand that you ate up, and now the majority has to come out against it. Players **want** to have time to enjoy the fruits of their labor when they build a lead. They don't want the game to simply end. Players also **want** a chance at a comeback when they fall behind. We don't queue up because we want the game to end ASAP. That defeats the purpose. If we "don't have much time", then we shouldn't be playing a multiplayer game with 9 other people. Pretty simple. How about listening to the _actual_ majority now?
One of the main sources is from global surveys, but also more focused feedback tools such as the microfeedback tool as well as player support tickets, and region specific feedback methods. It's not like we read a single random post and thought "Let's act on it!". Boards are one of the best way to get really detailed feedback and thoughts from players as well as a bit of back and forth discussion, but they are one of the worst ways to get a representative sample or even a majority opinion from the regions represented by boards, (let alone a more global perspective). And even within the boards community itself they additionally tend to bias towards players who object to changes or an issue rather than those who like the changes or are content. I think we agree we want players to have time to enjoy a game they are winning, we agree that they want a chance to comeback. I would also hope that we can agree we want leads and small victories to feel meaningful and that teams feel that can close out a game when they've won and not feel like games drag on for too long when a team should have just won. We're not designing in absolutes, it's always a spectrum. As I mentioned elsewhere we're looking at doing another small followup adjustment in 7.10 (with next patch 7.9 being midseason) so we're open to making some additional changes at that time.
Captatrix (EUNE)
: I keep seeing posts that Riot "has to unlock all of the champions" but I don't think it's properly appreciated in the community just how intimidating the sea of faces in champion select would be for newbs so this casual mode would suddenly become overly hard for new players. And ARAM is already a lot less prevalent than Rift.
This is where the dilemma comes in with different audiences wanting different things out of the mode. Unlocking all the champions would definitely make the mode more competitive for hardcore aram players at a notably worse experience for people who are less hardcore about the mode but still really enjoy it currently. This is made additionally more difficult by those players generally not having strong presence on boards or other response avenues so their feedback is much harder to get but still incredibly valuable.
: off-topic: when you see ManWolfAxeBoss again, would you mind asking if [this is him?](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/pfMXqhQc-manwolfaxeboss-are-you-playing-mirage-arcane-warfare)
That would indeed be him! He's been getting really into it lately. I've been playing a bit myself, but we used to play a ton of Chivalry. He even made a custom workshop maps for Chivalry which is pretty cool.
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MuE2EArF,comment-id=00120000000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-25T02:23:44.145+0000) > > multiple audiences that are somewhat at odds. Are the groups large enough to split the queue? If so, by adding ranked? Does that go against the spirit of aram? Or does it give competitive aram players an outlet while making the unranked aram less competitive and truer to the spirit?
I don't believe splitting the queues would be beneficial for either group.
Baka Red (EUNE)
: I have around 3K ARAMs behind me and my experience about match length is pretty similar to Sokar468's. I don't think I have ever had a match that lasted over 50 minutes. Even matches lasting 40 minutes are very rare. I think they usually last 20 to 30 minutes for me. And I prefer them longer rather than shorter. It would be great if we could more easily gather statistics from our own games, but I guess the reason why Riot has not implemented more detailed match history search is that more complex SQL would be very heavy strain to the servers. Ah, Riot, thanks for the current web based Match History. It has been going towards good direction. :)
You're right that over 50 Minute ARAM games were incredibly rare (noticeably less than 1% of games), though having 40+ minute games definitely happened and quite a bit more often than we wanted. I had nothing to do with it personally but I'm glad you like the match history! I like using it to spot when a game starts going really right or wrong after a tough match and find it's really useful for learning from my mistakes. I can use it to spot key moments in a game and the boot up and focus watch the replay at those times.
: I think if you disabled/twealed the tower passive on the last 2 towers ( the one where minions have to be in range of it otherwise it has buffed armor ) you would see quicker games, thats been a pretty big problem in the past I've noticed for teams, they get aced mid way but have to wait for minions to get to the towers and most of the time someone respawns before it happens... If you tweaked that passive, maybe cut it in half on the last 2 towers and then bring back in line the super minions damage/armor you would find a better balance then what it is currently... Just my 2 cents, I've seen it happen sooo many times, although its a pretty thin line because i've been on the other end of that and somehow pulled a rabbit out of our hat for a victory. Ultimately, the super minions were just too over powered it seemed the last few times and it literally was very frustrating to play with a 4 melee team knowing very well we wouldn't see a decent late game because they couldn't finish their builds.... Its more punishing now I think because its sink or swim...
That's a really interesting idea targeting the backdoor bonus. It's subtle, keeps the power in the hands of Champions / Players which is preferable and might help reduce those late game stallouts. I don't think there would be any issue applying it universally to all the turrets, as the first turret is pretty hard to take down and threatening without minions even for a strong early team. It's a really cool idea, I'll run it by some folks. Thanks for the suggestion!
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MuE2EArF,comment-id=0012000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-25T04:41:21.028+0000) > > Sure! I'm very interested in systemic changes that might mitigate some of those balance issues, though I don't want us to go into Champion Specific balance for ARAM. With that focus, the best avenues / things to touch would be in order of preference, the Passive Aura, Health Relics, Snowball, and the Guardian's item line. > > One small change I'm looking at for 7.10 is shifting the mana regen formula for the aura to be flat w. scaling instead of based off a % of your mana pool. This wouldn't be a large swing in either direction but it would overall be a small mana regen nerf to champions with higher mana pools many of whom are the culprits of whom you speak. while a buff to champions with smaller pools. > > That said, I'm open to other suggestions. Thank you very much for posting in this thread! I am so excited to see a Rioter here willing to listen and work with the community -sorry for the long post! As Sokar468 suggested, I feel that the mana issues early in ARAM are a tad awkward - especially in the early game. I feel as if the Mana Regen is almost non-existent to an initiator (like Nautilus or Poppy) who is out of mana after a single combo. This is compounded by throwing in poke-heavy efficient builds (such as Lost Chapter -> Morrelo's) that allow the champions who abuse you from range to continue doing so, while your best option is to execute or forfeit your tower after you have no mana left. I don't mind seeing Tears of the Goddess on teams as it's a scaling item and encourages you to throw spells out left and right, however I don't enjoy watching Ziggs/Xerath fling Q's like there's no tomorrow without ever making a dent on their mana pool as they level up faster than us (and get that sweet Lost Chapter regen). This compounds further into the level 6 powerspike that they will inevitably get first due to either Kills or forcing us off of our minions and losing XP. I feel that all the Guardian's Items are a bit underwhelming at times - they sell for a very measly amount (which is understandable if they are a staple starting item), however I've noticed that they're often skipped. The Guardian's Horn is great, *sometimes*, however I feel that it doesn't necessarily bring the same "oomph" that buying a Spectre's Cowl does against AP Teams or rushing Warden's Mail or a Chain Vest with a Ruby Crystal against an AD Team. The +150 Health is the same value as a 400 gold as a Ruby Crystal, so I wouldn't mind seeing it get beefed up a bit. The Damage Reduction is very much welcomed, however the +20 HP / 5 seems a bit low. For 100 HP back I'm looking at 25 seconds (not including base regen), which is a fairly long time in a map designed for quickness (in my opinion). If I'm at 100 HP out of 1000 HP and want to engage at full health, I'm looking at 225 seconds (or 3 minutes 45 seconds - 3:45). They're likely going to siege my tower at that point, and I feel that perhaps this item could be changed to a percentage (%) Regen based on missing health to prevent teams from sitting and regenerating, allowing for a faster experience and more teamfighting! Nearly every other Guardian Item is neglected, in my experience. I'd much prefer to start off with a Vampiric Scepter and perhaps a Dagger (or whatever else I'm building into) and be working towards a Legendary-tier item instead of being 950g down from the Guardian's Hammer. Or on a heavy-hitter (Draaaaven) even a BF Sword and 2 pots and hope for the best! The extra +150 Health is nice and I'm sure would save people here and there, however I feel it's rather lackluster compared to pure combat stats. Most of the players I've run into generally understand their position from the beginning. Nautilus will happily go in and CC a target as he's the most likely to survive, while Ashe will stay back and poke trying to hit whoever she can here and there. I think that this is a healthy map for teamfighting in that regard, and helps teach the basics of teamfighting and positioning to people. I personally am not a fan of the Guardian's Orb. I'm not sure how many people run it, however it's incredibly inefficient compared to Lost Chapter, and having it not build into anything and sell for less seems to make it fall even farther away from the "pick me!" category. 30 AP is very nice, don't get me wrong, and +10 Mana per 5 isn't too terrible, however if I'm using a champion with 100 Mana Spells I'm looking at a solid 50 seconds to regen that mana (not counting base/Howling Abyss buffs). I feel this could fall under a similar category to the Guardian's Horn, where a change to percentage (%) Regen based on missing mana would bring some life into this item. There are Masteries that somewhat accomplish this, however it's rather minute and relies heavily on the caster having a MASSIVE Mana pool or incredibly low-cost spells to make use of it. I can see the removal of all the GP/10 items since the minions now passively grant gold being nearby, however is there any way to "upgrade" into the old items perhaps? Such as *Even More Ancient Coin* that does nothing until stacked up and evolves back into a Talisman of Ascension for speeding up a team. Same thing with Relic Shield, perhaps make a *Worn out Relic Buckler* with some scaling stats when nearby minions die, and eventually upgrades into the Face of the Mountain for shielding your allies. Spellthief's was likely taken a VAST majority of the time, mainly because something like a Nidalee Bushwhack (W) would cause all 3 instances to go off, or Morgana's Tormented Soil (W) guaranteed all 3 stacks and Thunderlord's Decree to go off, which is a tad cheesy, but supplemented the gold income that the farmers would normally get as you are busy farming champion's Health :). Health Relics and earlier minion timer: Thank you for that one. I enjoy getting into the game quickly and battling it out, and the 2:00 spawn time on Health Relics certainly boosted the ability to "GET BACK IN THERE AND FIGHT!" I thoroughly enjoy this. The only complaint I have about Health Relics is that the team pushing the first tower down now has access to ALL Health Relics on the map. So if they come in and scrap with us under turret and all 10 players live, they will simply walk away to the Health Relics while we are stuck under our turret sacrificing minions to the Howling Abyss. They will then return, MUCH healthier than us, and certainly win the fight, take tower/inhibitor, and then execute afterward - as is tradition in ARAM. And now I bring up the dreaded Super Minions. Holy cow these things are nigh impossible to kill. The best way to defend it seems is having Syndra throw them into the Nexus and deal with them that way. It feels very counterproductive as we're losing the much-needed gold only starving ourselves out harder, while then having to clear the regular waves and fight the enemy team from chipping away at our towers while they have a 30% (IIRC) speed boost. Like a mini-Sivir running them down lane. I can defend against (1) 370-450 AD Super Minions once, although he's likely to kill me if I'm not able to kite him properly or are a hardcore tank. Once two waves start crashing, all hope seems lost. Our minions are no match for the supers who are literally 1-shotting them as they spawn, while simultaneously whacking away at turrets. It's a very awkward dance to deal with, as the enemy team is surrounding you and flinging spells off left and right at that point in the game. It just feels hopeless. I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed a slugfest where any team can win - with any comp if they put their hearts into it. That's what drives me to ARAM - to see the diversity and how off-meta things can be fun! I'll gladly play Zilean and sit in the back as a buff-bot to our frontline and speed them up for days, giving otherwise mobility-less champions a chance to say "fuck it, I'm coming at you bro." I'll drop some bombs once you guys create havoc. That's the awkward synergy I play ARAM for. I'd love to see Super Minions scale based on how a game is going - not just be 400+ AD 100 Armor destruction machine that they currently are. I don't even know of a champion in the game that can match those stats that early. It's like having a Fighter-class champion just walking up and smacking everything. Towers fall to them in a minuscule amount of time/hits. It's not uncommon for a "one last fight" to break out at the enemy's Nexus while we try to put our little hits on it here and there, but what happens when we wipe? Now those Super Minions are devastating the enemy's based, and it just doesn't feel good. I wanted that +50g! (Not really, but it feels awkward when my entire team is dead and buying/preparing to make one valiant charge as a team, only to be outdone by Super Minions who are impossible to kill in time dealing massive chunks of damage to the Nexus. It's like watching the world's worst Micro at Starcraft all over again. There's nothing the enemy team could have done if they can't actually throw them away and have more time with it. A 500+ Stacked Nasus with Last Whisper barely put a dent in those things, I honestly don't know if it's intended, but it just felt wrong. I'm not quite sure how to make Super Minions come into balance myself, perhaps something along the lines of: >If Ally Team is +4 Levels in total over Enemy Team, They get +400 AD on Supers since the game is likely over at that point. >If Ally Team is +1 Levels in total over Enemy Team, They get +100 AD on Supers since they are working hard to overcome their disadvantage. >If Ally Team is +12 Levels in total over Enemy Team, They get +1200 AD on Supers since there is clearly an AFK and both parties would benefit from ending the game sooner. Although I do love coming back from a 4v5, usually it just ends up with the enemy team fountain-farming and letting the minions win the game. Oh and for speed boosts: >Grants 30% Move Speed to all nearby champions. Can this be turned off when retreating?
Holy smokes batman, this is a long post and I'm getting ready to go to sleep so I'll leave a couple of thoughts and then have to get back to you. For Mana Regen on Ziggs, etc I don't think I can reasonably go hard enough if a player gets any mana item to actually put a noticeable dent off their mana pools, but the base stat adjustment I mentioned previously could help a tiny bit with that especially since it would limit them double dipping off getting more regen by increasing their flat mana. I'll get some additional internal opinions on the strength of the Guardian's line, but this does seem to be a reoccurring trend where these items may be a little more trappy than we'd like. I don't think they're bad but it's likely optimal to just skip them entirely and just rush your first big item for some champions. HPRegen is generally a pretty underappreciated stat but Guardian's Horn giving missing health instead of flat is interesting. I'm not sure how hard we'd have to go on the math for this to be favorable but it's a lever I'm interested in giving some thought to. As for the Speed Boost - I'd like to keep it pretty simple, but I'll check with ManWolf around his intent on this one. The goal was to allow teams that get that inhibitor advantage the ability to actually take advantage of that first minion wave crash quickly while they still have momentum but we can probably do some adjustment to it.
Sokar468 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MuE2EArF,comment-id=0012000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-25T04:41:21.028+0000) > > Sure! I'm very interested in systemic changes that might mitigate some of those balance issues, though I don't want us to go into Champion Specific balance for ARAM. With that focus, the best avenues / things to touch would be in order of preference, the Passive Aura, Health Relics, Snowball, and the Guardian's item line. > > One small change I'm looking at for 7.10 is shifting the mana regen formula for the aura to be flat w. scaling instead of based off a % of your mana pool. This wouldn't be a large swing in either direction but it would overall be a small mana regen nerf to champions with higher mana pools many of whom are the culprits of whom you speak. while a buff to champions with smaller pools. > > That said, I'm open to other suggestions. Yes, I figured champion-specific updates would be too tedious considering the focus on SR. But I'm really happy you are open to discussion on things. The thoughts I'll share with you aren't well-thought out, just rambling from an avid ARAM fan. :D Could the mana regen from the passive aura be applied based on class? I'm not sure what kind of flags the League system uses, but, for example, having slightly lower flat mana regen for Mage class champions vs. slightly higher/normal for Fighters champs who need to be more trial-and-error in applying pressure in ARAM. I think Health Relics are OK. For Snowball, it's definitely necessary to keep some champs relevant, but it can be too much on some champs. For example, snowball gives Alistar even more engage potential whereas the benefit for a champ like Tryn is more normalized. One idea would be flagging champions as "gap closer" and "no gap closer", and then adjusting the missile speed accordingly. Gap closer champs would have slower snowballs, thus requiring more careful use of them. Some players dislike the vision that Snowball gives. I think this would be less of an issue if the brush in ARAM and Oracles were reworked. Other people suggested removing the damage, and this could be helpful for champs without gap closers. Nothing's worse than snowballing to get into a fight, killing a target (even worse if it's a minion), and then being stuck behind. Guardian items were a great addition. Resale value is poor, but that's in accordance with the Doran's philosophy, so I can't comment there. I think many players opt out of the Guardian items except for the Horn due to it's necessity vs. poke. With the removal of support items, the actives from Frost Queen, Face of the Mountain, and Talisman are all gone. I would favor reworking ARAM starting items into options that can lead to those active effects (or active effects more suitable for ARAM). They offer depth and options to ARAM that will be missed by many. Of course, there is the risk of too many players with too many overlapping actives. As for the main concern of the super minions. Could you imagine a way to make the power of super minions scale better? Starting off with 300 AD and 100 armor from the get-go seems very excessive. I remember when Riot had some more complex scaling for minions in SR based on missing towers. I wonder if you could do the same based on enemy champion kills + team assists, for example. In other words, getting unlucky and losing an inhib early gives you a chance, but if you are losing subsequent team fights, the enemy supers will scale up to reflect your losing position over time (rather than supers dooming you from the start). Kills PLUS total team assists would mitigate the punishment of a couple poke champions picking off enemies without retribution. ARAM is best when teams fight in a brawl, and the super minion scaling could reward that. I hope that isn't too much rambling, but thank you so much for discussing! **EDIT:** Do you think the issue of supports having normal income and having their kits being more powerful than intended is something worth discussing?
I'm fairly against changes that are unique to a specific type of character, especially ones that can't be easily ascertained by the opponent. Ex- What defines a tank, despite being somewhat flexible often being based on current tuning, or meta, is pretty subjective and I'd hate to add directly balance implications to our general class names especially since those aren't visible or clearly known to players. I'd consider something melee vs ranged but even that makes me a tad uncomfortable but if it had the right benefits I'd consider it. As for Dash/Non-Dash being weaker on "dash" champions I have similar thoughts as above, but also I think this actively goes against your balance target. While it would nerf Alistar, the correlation between dash champions and doing well in ARAM is inverted. Champions like Aatrox, Master Yi, Xin Zhao, Braum, Bard, Thresh, Leblanc, Camille, Tryndamere would all get hit by this change and they all are not doing particularly well in the map, and there are many others. As for Super Minions, one change we're very likely to do is to increase the respawn of inhibitors to match the increased wave spawn speed. Previously you got 10 super minions per inhib, but now you get usually 12. We'd be looking to reduce this respawn speed to match the previous wave count so they'd respawn nearly a minute faster (250 seconds from 300). I'm also open to other game ending alternatives, but right now the minions have been pretty successful in actually letting games close out and reducing the number of 35-40 minute games or more which has been a pretty big improvement to the map in our minds. It's tough without additional objectives that help wrap up the game like Baron and Elder, but I'm open to ideas here that are reasonably scoped (ex- I don't have a pile of free artists hanging around).
: Thanks for your response. I play ARAM at a high mmr and I have a few balance suggestions if you are interested. Remove the true vision from {{summoner:32}}. You guys made a push with the assassin update to make it so only towers reveal stealth but mark can still absolutely destroy champs like Talon. I'd also suggest {{item:2047}} act like {{item:3341}}. Make the ARAM staring items more appealing. Cheaper, more focused stats, or a better resell value. Right now I fell like they are a noob trap under most situations since you start with enough gold to get a significant start on your fist item. Build in a "I'm going to reroll, anyone want?" system into the pre-game lobby. It happens almost every time in chat already. Buff or remove {{item:3060}}. The active cd is too long to ever be useful, even against a pure ap team. Remove {{item:2053}}. It doesn't build into anything. It'd also be nice if the dodging, aram accounts, and low mmr bots could be addressed. Thanks for your time!
A few questions, how do you expect {{summoner:32}} to behave ideally when it hits stealth champions? Looking at the Guardian's line efficiency is something we can check out. Is your assessment they all need to be universally buffed? If I gave you the keys to those 3 items what would you change? {{item:3060}} We're not going to be doing any revisions to, though I agree it could use a change as any adjustments there would also be made for SR. {{item:2053}} is already removed for next patch, our bad on that one. Thanks for the suggestions!
Sokar468 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Douglas Funnie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MuE2EArF,comment-id=003c0005,timestamp=2017-04-25T03:10:34.048+0000) > > I don't like arams because of the damn snowball instant teleport summoner spell. Please, get rid of it. In the hands of some champs like Alistar, it's frustrating, but overall I think Mark allowed more champs to be relevant. One tweak I could imagine is flagging champions as "having gap closer" and "not having gap closer", and then adjusting the snowball missile speed accordingly (slower snowballs for gap-closer champs, normal speed for the rest).
I don't think I'd want to change something so fundamental as missile/travel speed based off a stat that is pretty arbitrary and oftentimes even subjective. (ex- Does Udyr's bear stance lunge count? What length of movement dash qualifies?). This is additionally made harder by the fact that Snowballs often hit from offscreen or from concealed locations and it's impossible to know how/why people moved at different speed until they arrive. That said, I'm open to looking at any general tuning adjustment on Mark/Dash.
Sokar468 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MuE2EArF,comment-id=00120000000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-25T02:23:44.145+0000) > > I'm frankly not involved in the decision making there, though I know it's been a conversation topic from Ghostcrawler and a few others. While I'm sure there may be business model implications there is a larger underlying issue of the game mode of ARAM is trying to serve multiple audiences that are somewhat at odds. Basically the new players or casual type player of "I like to play the champs I like" who have a worse experience if they get access to way more champions than they are comfortable with, and the more hardcore competitive ARAM players who have a worse experience if the champion distribution isn't even, are fundamentally at odds. There may be a middle ground, but it's tough to find the right balance there, particularly if those populations are really uneven. > > In regards to champion outliers, I'm assuming you are specifically referring to champions that have really high or really low winrates? Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense. Yes, veteran ARAM players want more even distribution of champs, and that could turn away casuals who don't want to see a lot of them. I'm getting a better idea of the ratio of casual to dedicated ARAM players thanks to your earlier post, so I can see the challenges. As for the problem outlier champs, it might vary from player to player, but champs that create a dreadful feeling of "auto-lose if I face them" are the culprits. Champs that offer both poke and zone control are considered auto-win excluding situations, for example, where they lack a front line vs. heavy dive (and even that might not work). Ziggs and Lux are the two that immediately come to mind, and they have both been buffed for SR a few times. Zyra is up there as well, although nerfs to her plant AI helped a lot. Jhin, Xerath, and Varus are also quite guilty, although not *quite* at Ziggs/Lux levels. Other champions that can be oppressive are supports because they play with equal gold income, which really powers up their kits. Sona, though vulnerable to CC and burst, provides perma-shields, heals, single target burst, and an AoE ultimate. In SR, it's manageable, but when she has access to Lich Bane and Rabadon's, it's outright insane. Janna on normal income can shield and peel for days, and Alistar on normal income is nearly unkillable. I may be missing someone, but beyond those, you will start digging into the personal hit-lists of individual players. For example, I think the number of traps Caitlyn has access to in ARAM is excessive, but whether she is Ziggs/Lux tier is highly debatable. EDIT: As for low win-rate champs, I'm not worried about them because I think frustration surrounding them is tied to the oppressive playstyles of the above-mentioned champs. Some may disagree, though.
Sure! I'm very interested in systemic changes that might mitigate some of those balance issues, though I don't want us to go into Champion Specific balance for ARAM. With that focus, the best avenues / things to touch would be in order of preference, the Passive Aura, Health Relics, Snowball, and the Guardian's item line. One small change I'm looking at for 7.10 is shifting the mana regen formula for the aura to be flat w. scaling instead of based off a % of your mana pool. This wouldn't be a large swing in either direction but it would overall be a small mana regen nerf to champions with higher mana pools many of whom are the culprits of whom you speak. while a buff to champions with smaller pools. That said, I'm open to other suggestions.
Sokar468 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=FeralPony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MuE2EArF,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2017-04-24T23:09:50.501+0000) > > So there really aren't many aram smurf accounts - it's a really, tiny amount last we checked. While they certainly do exist, the fact you see those champions often is more due to a number of other factors. > > Mostly importantly > -All those champions are incredibly high ownership and popularity, while many of the traditionally bad ARAM champions are very low ownership and popularity. This means you'll heavily skew naturally towards seeing those champions. Way more people own Lux and Sona than Trundle and Aatrox. > -Rerolls (and Teammates rerolling for others unlucky picks) exacerbate the above metrics - you are less likely to get poor ARAM champs vs strong ARAM champs _and_ folks reroll them on top of that when they get them. > -I'm sure there is a bit of Confirmation Bias as well, but the above two factors are probably more important Thank you so much for contributing! It's great to have a Rioter address this topic specifically because facing outlier champions (i.e. oppresive, although I know that's a strong word) over and over again *feels horrible* and causes people to find outlets for blame. I know it's hard to address this problem for a couple reasons. First, I imagine unlocking all champs to all players for ARAM can affect the business model for Riot. Second, making tweaks to individual champions for a game mode with no Pro scene is tedious. Yet, knowing that ARAM smurfs are relatively uncommon is great because it really unlocks the discussion instead of bogging it down with "I'm pissed because I keep facing (insert champion here)." On the topic, is there hard data that allows us to identify such outlier champs? And if so, would that data suggest realistic changes to them? Many other players and I are continuing to play ARAM to further sculpt our opinions on the recent changes. Thanks again for stopping by! EDIT: Trundle is a beast in ARAM. :D
I'm frankly not involved in the decision making there, though I know it's been a conversation topic from Ghostcrawler and a few others. While I'm sure there may be business model implications there is a larger underlying issue of the game mode of ARAM is trying to serve multiple audiences that are somewhat at odds. Basically the new players or casual type player of "I like to play the champs I like" who have a worse experience if they get access to way more champions than they are comfortable with, and the more hardcore competitive ARAM players who have a worse experience if the champion distribution isn't even, are fundamentally at odds. There may be a middle ground, but it's tough to find the right balance there, particularly if those populations are really uneven. In regards to champion outliers, I'm assuming you are specifically referring to champions that have really high or really low winrates?
: I'd personally be interested, your insight is always handy plus its nice with other Rioter blogs like Fearless and Ghostcrawler
Fair enough, always happy to provide my thoughts on stuff it's just not as empowering to the people providing feedback or to myself if I can't act on any of the questions or suggestions.
: Thats a shame, always enjoyed your insight on ask.fm, any plans on doing it again?
Possibly. I had a Tumblr version set up but I didn't relaunch it. I haven't had as much time outside of work, and I'm not sure how useful I'll be since easily 90% of the questions are state of the game / game balance related, which I'm a lot less useful for nowadays.
: Hey FeralPony does this mean you are working on gameplay again?
Not generally, just this ARAM stuff :D Doing ARAM support is just something we're both passionate about so try to get it in, in addition to our normal work.
Sokar468 (NA)
: If we could compile meaningful data on the prevalence of smurf accounts, then the suggestion of unlocking all champs would be interesting. For ARAM mains who have reached a decent +win differential, the number of times we see champs like Ziggs/Lux/Jhin/etc. seems very high. However, it could be confirmation bias, which is why I want some real data on this.
So there really aren't many aram smurf accounts - it's a really, tiny amount last we checked. While they certainly do exist, the fact you see those champions often is more due to a number of other factors. Mostly importantly -All those champions are incredibly high ownership and popularity, while many of the traditionally bad ARAM champions are very low ownership and popularity. This means you'll heavily skew naturally towards seeing those champions. Way more people own Lux and Sona than Trundle and Aatrox. -Rerolls (and Teammates rerolling for others unlucky picks) exacerbate the above metrics - you are less likely to get poor ARAM champs vs strong ARAM champs _and_ folks reroll them on top of that when they get them. -I'm sure there is a bit of Confirmation Bias as well, but the above two factors are probably more important
: Aram lacks the "closeout" methods that summoner's rift does. Stuck in a deadlock? Take Baron Nashor and push down some objectives. In Aram a deadlock is often decided on loading screen when you see the teams. Unless Riot plans on adding some new gameplay objective to the howling abyss, making super minions the win condition is currently the best you can do to reward a winning team. The average ARAM is probably about 30 min, and the average summoner's rift is probably about 40 minutes, but the fact ARAM can drag on to 55 min with no clear method to close out the game is problematic. Is buffing super minions a final solution? Probably not, but Riot has been known to apply calculated bandages until a full scale update is possible. *[see aatrox]*
Those game length numbers are a bit high, but the general sentiment we totally agree on. There aren't hardly any ARAM games that go over 50 minutes, but there were many more than we'd like going over 40, which feels like an eternity in ARAM. Trying to make the game close out in a way that's satisfying is a really tricky problem.
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FeralPony

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