Naalith (NA)
: Riot: "We're going to nerf level 2 junglers because they're too oppressive"
It is because nerfing xp at a later point means that jungles trade off early ganking pressure for falling off faster relative to solo laners.
Meddler (NA)
: Concern there is that that likely reintroduces the same sort of problems we saw with the Monster Hunter Debuff, only more so if it's on all jungle items. What we've just started testing is a modified version where a gold penalty only kicks in if you've got a t1 or t2 jungle item and have more gold earned from minion kills than monster kills. Will let you folks know if that shows promise after some playtesting.
I feel another plausible solution is to split the gold and xp on all camps expect first blue buff/ red buff (and epic monsters) if an allied champion has a gold item damages the camp and a person with a jungle item damages the same camp. It'll split the gold and xp 50% between the 2. This basically makes funneling less effective in long term.
: Lol, if adc is so garbage, why do marskmen as a class have the highest playrate out of any champ??
Short answer the role is normally around 20% of the amount of people playing. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/main-stats/na/all The role playrate for champions playing will be higher because of a smaller champion pool compared to other roles.
Rioter Comments
: Yeah this is seriously kinda gross. Since that guy's creation he has been unreal amount of balance changes in his history. More than twice Karma's changes and in greater scale. Meanwhile Karma is 3x as old as he is.
Yup, riot has along for the ride Tristana, Galio,ryze, and caitlyn with karma as well. Which is sad that tristana who's kite is simpler then anyone else on the list somehow has a lower winrate/pickrate then karma. I mean karama honestly needs a new VGU at this point to be honest or at least a full kit rework to make her kit less of a general shield mage and more of something that is unique. I mean Tristana is getting a minor buff / nerf revert of patch 5.22 on PBE but still riot has left a lot of champions at low winrates with simple kits for little reason.
: > [{quoted}](name=Geshultz,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4h3pzjm2,comment-id=0065,timestamp=2018-06-15T20:51:43.685+0000) > > Some ideas to also help reduce snowball. > > Make towers harder to dive. (Have the tower attack speed ramp up as it gets more shots off on champions). > > Make it easier to survive poke under tower (Make towers give some form of bonus to help survive like extra health regain to nearby champions or more armor/magic resistance) This helps weaker champions to have at least an ability to farm without making towers too strong. Another option is give champions well under tower more attack speed or Attack damage to help farm minions under tower. > > Other option make all towers have some form of health regain but use inhibitor rule where it only regains to the nearest 1/3. This helps make successfully defending a tower more worth trying to save instead of giving up. > > Another option make nexus towers have more health and resistances and have more attack speed but nerf outer and inner towers health to keep game time the same. This will make nexus towers feel more like a final line of defense instead of just a minor inconvenience in the way of a win. > > Reduce the amount of time it takes for an inhibitor to respawn. This is probably a good solution as it encourages the enemy team the need to keep pressure on, but also allows for a better chance for a comeback. > > Make super minions weaker and take more damage from champions (this helps make baron more important to take and secure leading to more fights). > > Nerf baron empowered minions damage reduction. Gives the team behind a better chance to stall. > > other options nerf the damage on runes like press the attack, arcane comet, electrocute, aftershock, grasp, and other keystones. This leads to less damage overall in the game and less likely to snowball and 1 shots. (Preferable choice). Just gonna number these. Some statements, some opinions, some questions. 1) Would be neat - kinda like the laser towers at tier 3 from back in season 6. Just hopping under tower should be viable if you have the mobility for it, but loitering should be significantly dangerous. 2) I like this even better. It turns towers into the bastion of safety they're supposed to be. Dives would still be possible, but it stops being "you automatically win under tower as the attacker if you have sufficient burst or the jungler is helping botlane". 3) Health regen seems *really* weak right now. To the point where I question its usefulness. If you get a tier 3 down to it's last third and repel the attack, it only heals to 1100. By the time inhibitor towers are in play, we're generally talking late game, where your main damage sources are doing multiple hundreds of damage per AA. If you chase off the attackers with a single HP left on the tower, it'll take 6 minutes and change for it to regenerate back up to 33% (1099HP @ 180HP/min. (15hp/5sec)) 6 minutes is a significant chunk of an average game's length. 4) **Dear sweet Aurelion please no.** Please don't make the laning phase even shorter than it already is. 5) More of a question here - when considering time, are you thinking in terms of minutes and seconds, or in terms of how many waves of supers get to spawn? No real opinion either way. 6) Supers do seem very difficult to deal with unless you're a damage dealer. Tanks/supports can't do anything but stall them. I like the idea of more fights instead of instant win conditions. Pushing into base should be a thing that requires more constant effort. 7) Would you be giving them more damage to compensate, or just a flat nerf? 8) I'd love to see less damage overall. I like that crit seems to be on its way out (RNG in skill-based games always struck me as eww, and RNG as it comes to damage can't really be planned around other than increasing the chances of it).
3) I understand why they want the health regeneration to be only to 1/3 of a tower's health (to make it so that sieging to specific health is rewarded). I personally would make it so that towers after a set period of time at 1/3 health could regenerate past that amount to the next 1/3 (say waiting 2-3 minutes). That way it rewards constant pressure but also rewards a team that keeps defending the tower. 5) I would have it be around 4 minutes (The baron buff lasts for 3 minutes and 30 seconds) This would give 8 waves of super minions each time an inhibitor is taken compared to 12 waves currently.This would make it in similar length as baron buff is currently. 7) I would give a flat nerf as baron minions are extremely strong at the minute and the baron already gives 5 kills worth of gold + 24-48 ad depending on time and 40-80 ap on top of making minions extremely powerful; along with faster recalling with instant healing and faster movement speed out of base. I would reduce casters from 50% damage reduction to 25% damage reduction against single damage. Melee minions would go from 75% to 50% against single target damage. Well, all area of effect reduction/damage over time damage reduction would go from 75% to 50%.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Its not "everyone can tank turrets now", its "players have become skilled enough to at least roughtly know how many towershots they can tank and how to effectively swap turret agro". Most divers even come with a cancel tower agro part of their kit.
It's more of a combination of towers being the same and in fact have become weaker. Well, everything else has been power creeped over the years. All classes in this game have items that grant health or some form of defense but bot lane crit marksmen have no way to get reasonable defense without being screwed over completely due to awkward build paths or if they do decide to get something like hexdrinker or chain vest it delays their powerspike in a meta where the average plat game ends around 25 minutes. All other classes in the game can at least afford to get some defensive itemization due to the fact that most classes core itemization have really good build paths. There are a couple ways to fix it but 1 requires just nerfing the damage of everything down to a more reasonable level (Trinity force, duskblade, electrocute, summon aery, scrotch, grasp of the udying et ceteria), another is make the crit marksmen buildpath as smooth as everyone else's core itemization, or just add defensive stats to crit itemization so marksmen can survive long enough to deal damage. An example of adding crit defensive itemization would be like infinity edge now grants (5 armor and mr to 20 armor/mr) Based on 0% to 100% crit chance. Another example would be a crit item with an active that knockback a single target an x amount of distance but has no passive. Basically the 2nd option is the best case and the easiest to do without needing to buff the living heck out of crit marksmen.
: Experiment: Community Patch Notes
{{champion:18}} **Tristana** **New Crowd Control Effect on Rocket Jump when used on a target with Explosive Charge** _The purpose of this change is to reward the risk of going into melee range as a marksmen with the usage of giving up safety of using her Rocket Jump. It is also to encourage the style of going in with rocket jump instead of saving it all the time as an escape. It is also to help make AP tristana more viable to use._ **Rocket Jump** _When Tristana jumps onto an enemy with explosive charge she gets an passive effect for 4 seconds that will stun the target for 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3/1.4 seconds if explosive charge target explodes at max stacks on the target. The stun duration scales with ranks in Rocket Jump._ **Explosive Charge** _The purpose of the change below is to help give Tristana a bit more early to mid game power to help her get to late game. This is a revert from an old nerf a while ago when Tristana was an issue._ _Tristana's Explosive new minimum bonus ad ratio: Old ratio 50%/60%/70%/80%/90% -------> New Bonus Ad ratio 50/65%/80%/95%/110%_ **Buster Shot** _The point of this change is to make Tristana's ult cooldown be in line with other hypercarry Marksmen such as vayne and twitch. Well, also buffing Ap tristana's playstyle and rewarding a tristana for hitting her ult against multiple champions. _ _Old Ult Cooldown: 120/110/100 -----> New Ult Cooldown 110/90/70_ _New effect: All targets that get effected by the Buster Shot knockback now take the damage from buster shot_ _Old AP ratio: 100% ------> New AP ratio 130% _ **Rune Changes of Overheal** _Since the nerf to Fleet Footwork Overheal has become an unattractive rune to use. When trying to compete with Triumph the purpose of this buff is to give Overheal a niche of being defensive rune for later parts of the game._ _New effect: Overheal no longer decays._ _ Old Overheal Numbers 10 base + (10% of maxium health) -------> New Overheal Numbers: 5 base + (5% of maximum health) that will scale up to a max of 15+ (15% of maximum health) _ _Healing from allies is now reduced from 300% effectiveness to 100% effectiveness._ **Changes for Blood-Thirster ** _The purpose of this change is to make Bloodthirstier a more appealing defensive item for marksmen to use late game and to make the mechanics of overheal similar to Blood-Thirster and to help make it easier for new players to understand how it works._ _New Effect: 100% of ally healing now overcharges Blood-Thirster's Shield_ _New Effect: Blood-Thrister's shield no longer decays._ _Old Blood-Thirster's shield numbers: (50-350) maximum amount of shield possible -------> New Blood-Thirster's shield numbers: (25-400) _
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 15
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4h3pzjm2,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-15T15:44:57.516+0000) > > Hi folks, > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > **Usual Disclaimers** > > These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > **Snowball** > > > We're testing some changes for 8.13 at the moment aimed at reducing snowball, in particular in the early game: > > * Lower death timers at early levels, so that early deaths don't decide lanes excessively and to allow a bit more risk taking. Particularly significant since even slight differences can allow you get a chunk of a wave as it crashed into your tower (6s instead of 10s at level 1, back to current death timers around level 8). > * Lower global gold on turrets (50 instead of 100 at present) > * Bounties for 2 kills again. When we swapped back to solo bounty gold instead of team we also took out the 2 kill bounty on the belief that it tended to result in lanes swinging back too hard (leads being too easily undercut). In retrospect looks like that's probably a needed catch up mechanic. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > **Fizz** > > We're testing some Fizz changes right now, looking in particular at his W and ways to replace the delayed mark with something better feeling that still backloads some damage. Options there could be things like a stronger DoT, a W with multiple casts of the AA reset or something else again. No concrete timeframe on when changes are likely to ship yet, probably on PBE in the moderate future though, potentially for a longer period to gather more feedback as with LB/Rengar. > > > http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png Some ideas to also help reduce snowball. Make towers harder to dive. (Have the tower attack speed ramp up as it gets more shots off on champions). Make it easier to survive poke under tower (Make towers give some form of bonus to help survive like extra health regain to nearby champions or more armor/magic resistance) This helps weaker champions to have at least an ability to farm without making towers too strong. Another option is give champions well under tower more attack speed or Attack damage to help farm minions under tower. Other option make all towers have some form of health regain but use inhibitor rule where it only regains to the nearest 1/3. This helps make successfully defending a tower more worth trying to save instead of giving up. Another option make nexus towers have more health and resistances and have more attack speed but nerf outer and inner towers health to keep game time the same. This will make nexus towers feel more like a final line of defense instead of just a minor inconvenience in the way of a win. Reduce the amount of time it takes for an inhibitor to respawn. This is probably a good solution as it encourages the enemy team the need to keep pressure on, but also allows for a better chance for a comeback. Make super minions weaker and take more damage from champions (this helps make baron more important to take and secure leading to more fights). Nerf baron empowered minions damage reduction. Gives the team behind a better chance to stall. other options nerf the damage on runes like press the attack, arcane comet, electrocute, aftershock, grasp, and other keystones. This leads to less damage overall in the game and less likely to snowball and 1 shots. (Preferable choice).
BLT2121 (NA)
: Quick question: Late Game Champs or Lane Bullies?
Depends on meta if I pick for late game or lane bully, but in general for the game. Late game focused champions allow for a larger champion pool to be viable. Such as tanks, fighters, Mid game champions, mages, Marksmen, supports. Well, having lane bully meta limits everything just to burst and fast reactions. Late game champions also allow the possibility of comebacks instead of early game focused metas.
: Maybe thats not the _best_ way to do it, but THE CONCEPT is really important of making her marks more reliable I feel that right now there is not a whole ton of skill expression in getting the marks that's _**specific**_ to kindred, and different than any other counter jg persay, except that it carries even more risk because the enemy team can know where you might go bc they can see the mark too
The other option is to make kindred marks invisible to the enemy team unless they have had vision of a mark. Making it require more of an effort to check camps by the enemy team. Ideally, best thing to do is either make kindred early-game focused that fall off or more reliable but better scaling, or have kindred be ok early and strong mid game with marks ect. The other option for her mark system is to have it be based around objectives like towers, and other things, but that makes it more dependent on an early game comp. Personally the best thing to do is my first suggestion where marks can be gained from everything and she keeps her ability to mark champion as it allows her to be reliable in that she can get some marks, but also keeps the ability of someone that counter jungles properly is rewarded properly. Then add skill to other parts of her kit. Like making e skill shot orientated or make w with combination of q do x, or make the ultimate heal increase towards the center ect.
MissionZedX (EUNE)
: Irelia worth it?
Some things I would recommend for you is {{champion:103}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:45}} . All the champions have fairly straight forward kits, but all have the ability to show off skill. Like using Diana e to cancel a dash.
: Kindred needs a hot fix, or a rework of some sort
I think the most reasonable thing to rework how kindred get's her marks. Example lets say it takes a mark need 20 minions to get a mark. Cannon minions would be 5 minions worth of stack. Large jungle monsters would be worth 4 minions. In Enemy jungle large jungle camps would be worth 6 minion worth. Well, epic monsters would give 1 full stack each. This would allow kindred to more viable in lane. Well, also making her less feast or famine as she can get marks from various sources.
: So which mages have started to show in the adc role after the changes?
AP varus has popped up as a the primary buildpath for varius. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/varus/adc/platinum Kai'sa is also following this buildpath of building AP. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/kaisa/adc/platinum Other then that for masters of mordekaiser/ziggs are seen bot very rarely. (0.1% for each pick in all games above plat+).
: I agree that it feels like a betrayal of trust. Either do it properly or don't do it at all.
Yup, and they are doing it again with the changes to botlane marksmen+ crit itemization. They are effectively removing a huge pool of marksmen from viability. For example {{champion:222}} {{champion:51}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:498}} are some of the marksmen not gonna be seen at all. To lesser extent {{champion:29}} {{champion:22}} {{champion:15}} {{champion:67}} depending on how good BORK rush is on vayne/twitch and ER is on ashe/sivir. Basically a quarter of the pool of marksmen are going to be unviable with the changes with possibly of up to 50% of the botlane marksmen pool being useless...
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: I do understand that if you don't play a lot, you can't climb, I myself didn't play a lot the first seasons I started playing and I only ended in mid gold. But again, you are wrong. If ADC flat out beat mages, then they would be picked so that they can snowball. Your point about waveclear is wrong, because any ADC can pick up Statikk Shiv and have better waveclear. Most ADCs also have ways of preventing ganks as well, while a lot of mid mages don't. Orianna, Cassio don't, others have situational defence. Anyway, it seems like you won't realize you are wrong, so I will stop replying. ADC > mages then.
Mages on average have better tools to survive and prevent ganks .Orianna has a speed boost/slow from her ball to prevent ganks, her shield and her ult as well once she reaches 6. Orianna also has her ball for vision into bushes not needing to face check. Cassiopeia has more unreliable defensive tools, but that is because she has really strong damage if she lands any poison. Cassiopeaia's has her movement speed on her q if she lands it (not too hard to predict as the jungler will be moving towards you). Her w area of effect ground + slow against targets farther away, and her ult. Again her kit has unreliable tools by design due to nature of having damage per second burst in magic damage. The comparison to the ADC version of this would be kog'maw who's only tool is a area of effect slow to prevent ganks ( and later his r to provide vision to check bushes), but again gains more damage due to even less defensive tools. On average basis mages with their kits have more peel tools then most adcs. For the more utility comparison is ashe who's kit only has a weak slow and her ult(single target stun but aoe slow) but again has vision tool to help prevent ganks. A fair comparsion to similar utility would be lissandra which she has a mobility tool/ aoe slow/aoe snare/ and a targeted stun/ zhonyas on her ult to get out of a gank. Again way more defensive tools to survive then adc comparison. This is besides the fact that the primary issue that comes with mages as a class is their utility+ burst+ long range is what creates the primary reason why assassins aren't played as much. Why, play a class with higher risk, but another class has similar reward to an assassin, but takes way less risk from 500+ range on the shortest range mages on top of utility if the person falls behind. That person will still have some value to a team. Mages and Assassins are basically sent to mid lane for the purpose of providing burst on the team and mages in general are safer and more reliable in providing that and more.
: Which champ has the WORST passive in the game???
Worst passives in the game {{champion:104}} (His entire passive is how his autos work and his autos can be blocked by tanks easily).{{champion:96}} (O boy you get to deal extra damage after you have died and its on a delay meaning anyone with a dash can get out easily). {{champion:14}} (Well, enemy team just walked away and used a single slow guess I will get cs then) best passives:{{champion:1}} ( A free stun after x amount of spell casts that can be held indefinitely) and {{champion:429}} (A free dash after every auto attack ever done).{{champion:45}} (Infinite AP stacking woot).
: Your'e going with the assumption we would just give people more gold. Tactics can be super broad here. What if we made everything worth less gold (turrets, minions, monsters, objectives), but then amped up kill gold and bounty gold? Not saying we'd do exactly that, but this doesn't just have to be a net increase in gold income.
Ideally the best thing to do is to standardize all towers to a flat 100 gold globally ( Reduces outer and inner tower gold and helps simplify the game for newer players that towers are worth 500 gold);along with adding an area around all towers that gives an area of effect shield that scales from 100 to 250 (Adding an item in the tower inventory to help against diving early game and helps make shield fall off towards late game). Extend fortification to 10 minutes across outer towers top and mid and increase bot lane tower by 750 ish (Gives more time to be able to farm under tower/ allows early game champions to roam to other lanes to help snowball their league increasing agency top lane). Increase health on baron and double the rate that it shreds armor/mr from 1 to 2 (makes it riskier to do baron and gives enemy team more time to react). Increase the health and damage on dragon( Again makes it riskier to do and helps shift some of the map over to top lane). Change rift herald's gold value from 100 gold flat to killer to 75 gold globally (makes top lane have more action). Then increase jungle camps health but lower their damage and reduce spawn timers for jungle camps along with the gold and experience being reduced (These changes help increase time it takes for junglers to clear camps reducing time to gank and helps make more jungles viable). Then reducing death timers during first 10 minutes of the game but scaling by to originally death timers later (This helps allow laners to get back to lane faster to catch minion waves after being pushed under tower if they die early).
: Agreed, in pro play assassins are probably the most difficult class to play due to how organized teams are. I'd also like to thank you for actually sharing a video you made yourself to at lesst create a discussion without the need of throwing buzz words and exaggerations.
You're welcome. Overall, I think the main issue that is in the game is how the power of supports in the game has been increased by a ton. Heck alistar this season around lvl 3-4 can 80 to 0 a champion with ignite as an example of how far support power has been increased. An example of this would be taking his entire combo of 160 damgage+ 100 on e auto proc+ atleast 4 stacks of his e damage at lvl 1 for 40 magic damage + atleast 2 autos of 69.3 attack damage. Which gives a total of 160+100+40 = 300 magic damage or 300 x (100/(100+32) = 227 + ignite at lvl 4 is 130 so 357 damage + any autos added during hard cc. Which is atleast 3 autos with hard cc in his kit which is 69.3 x 3 = 207.9 damage x (100/135.7) (vaynes armor stat) = 153. So a total of 510 damage after armor and mr excluding runes but if including aftershock it would add 29+ 3% of Alistair health as damage which is 853 alistar health so 25.59+29 = 54 magic damage x (100/132) = 40 more damage so a toal of 550. vayne has 686 health at lvl 4 so 550/(686+80) (Base vaynes health at lvl 4 +doran's blade) = 71% of her health.
: People have done the numbers and have shown that Adc core items are among the cheapest, which is a problem because they are suppose to be late game characters that scale with items. You can see that they rather have items than levels because they split a lane with a support, lowering their overall experience compared to a solo lamer. Another point would be that there are more anti-auto attack items in the game then there are of any item archetype, which could be argued that Riot sees that they are a huge threat, but could also argue this make Adcs weaker. This is coming from a jungle main and adc secondary person.
I mean to be fair to the point of more anti-auto attack items in the game is because their are more classes that use auto attacks are primary source of dps. Think divers, skirmishers, ADCs, and juggernauts. For adc itemization total cost is lower but also doesn't spike until {{item:3031}} +{{item:3087}} and atleast {{item:3035}} to be useful in teamfights/ duels. Most classes get their power spike in their components or their first items that is typically equal to same powerspike with 7.3k gold spent on itemization by ADC. Heck duskblade is 2.9k gold and gives the best powerspike in game right now {{item:3147}} with triforce coming in second with 3.7k gold.
: Yes, but in a teamfight adc cant focus a tank when divers mages and assassins exist. All im saying is the videos show nothing that i'd deem OP or uncounterable. Any decent cho would 1 shot that cait as soon as she got hit by Q, with the same tank build and a lot less than 20 seconds. Im not really talking about your specific point tho, more to those threads where people say shit like "i was rammus with 700 armor and got 3 shot by a twitch"
I agree that those types of threads are dumb. I would say normally in team fights in pro play they typically are hitting the tank/diver normally; due to it being the safest target to auto and typically won't get to the back line until the fight is basically over by that point. In case of assassins typically an ADC just gets 1 shot in spell rotation unless they have tabi/magic resist to survive in terms of 1v1 if left alone in teamfights; but that typically means they are losing out on 10%-15% of their dps just by using different boots. Otherwise in teamfights normally in pro play assassins are just worst mages without good waveclear or utility and are high risk; which is why control mages are most played mid or hypercarry mages.
: Outside of SR and ARAM adcs have always been the weakest class. Since all the balancing and attention is funneled into SR, they only seem OP since nearly all the balancing is designed around making sure they work. I believe supports are the strongest class overall in this game, especially when they're able to build damage. Not only do most of them maintain the highest winrates, but they've always dominated on every other map/game mode as well. Range and utility (followed closely by mobility) are the best things a champion can have in this game, and many supports have both.
I would argue that control mages/ hyper carry mages with hard cc are the strongest in the game because they have the best of all 3 worlds. Damage, utility, and range. On top of that most of the utility of these mages is an area of effect and same with the damage; since they are mages it also means they have some of the best waveclear in the game as well. Some champion examples of this would be {{champion:268}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:136}}{{champion:13}} {{champion:61}} . All champions that have been major balance issues with pro play in past and present. Only other champions that are played mid in pro play in recent years are because they are either extremely reliable {{champion:134}} {{champion:90}} or have tankiness with good damage {{champion:8}} .
: 1st video is vayne, a literal tank buster, she still goes to 1/3 of her health from just attacking. 2nd video is a full build cait with botrk and lord dominiks against cho with only 2 armor items and MR shoes. Both those examples are against bots who just let you auto attack them for free, and it still took cait a good 20 seconds of none stop auto attacking to kill cho' and vayne 10 to kill rammus. 10 and 20 seconds of solo focusing these tanks in a team fight is anything but realistic.
Yup, it is to show solo ADC damage against tanks to see how long it would take to kill with best anti-tank itemization without DPS from mages or dps increasers like janna shield.
Hópe (NA)
: There hasent been a single thread with video evidence. I've searched the match history and background of almost every adc complaint thread and the person making those threads are usually some person who was 0-8 complaining about the 14-5 Xayah.
Realistic videos of ADC damage against tanks (at full build or near full build) with using highest possible anti-tank single target dps itemization. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdwAmL0Sahg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFJqSppIp8M
: Imagine the rage if an item like adaptive existed for auto attacks. One item and auto cuck every adc.
It does exist its called {{item:3143}} reduces all crit damage to 80% and slows total as by 15% for a second if autoed ( Even has a nice active that slows in 550 range(average auto range of adcs) that slows for 2 seconds at 55%) or the cheaper version called {{item:3047}} reduces all auto damage by 10% to everything but towers (Doesn't reduce on hits). If you wanna reduce ADC lifesteal to 0% effectively theres this lovely item caleld {{item:3075}} that also comes with randuin's as passive slow of total by 15%. If you want reduce ADC dps without being attacked theres {{item:3110}} that removes 15% total as in an aura(It stacks with randuin's or thornmail AS slow up to a potential 27.75% total as slow).
Skycrowx (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Geshultz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8KFmi14G,comment-id=000e0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T23:41:29.949+0000) > > It's kinda the point of the item. Is to have a huge burst increase when stacked at 100 or have it be used in short bursts at 20 stacks and use it to help close a gap to land skills, along side a small increase in ability power. Keeping in mind the cooldown is 60 seconds. The point of the item is to avoid having a DFG that basically allowed mages to 1 shot tanks, but keeping an effective tool to be used against squishes. I know, a active that would go for 7seconds and only goes to 50Ap would feel however much more rewarding in my opinion. Also 200Ap is pretty toxic if u ask me or any Adc main LOL xD
I mean in the end the itemization changes fixed the major issues with mage itemization. Mainly same 3 item builds, over and over again. Well, also fleshing out mage item identities. Overall, it was mostly a sucess expect for the destruction of hextech GLP from the game expect it just needs some buffs to it's active to be good again. The issue with Hextech GLP in the past was it was a generalist item giving health, mana, sustain, average abilitity power ontop of a good build path with an active to get stickiness, waveclear and extra damage. Meaning the item couldn't really get buffed by riot without making it mandatory on every mage in the game. Overall, the overall ability power count went up for mages that want to scale; well, more snowbally champs got an item to increase their burst potential with luden's echo and help with mana. Morello's as an item was just extremely overloaded item that caused the primary issue with mage itemization due to how overloaded it was. They couldn't really buff/ change mage itemization without either reworking it or basically making it less mandatory on every mage. But ya the 100 abilitiy power is fair for an item's active as it takes some time to reach there with stacking.
Skycrowx (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Geshultz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8KFmi14G,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T23:18:53.814+0000) > > I mean they did do it this patch. They made luden's echo into a rushable first item. It basically a really strong mid game spike for mages, along side the new AP item spell binder which grants 100 AP and 10% movement speed for 2.8k gold on top of the passive that adds ability power and movement speed for 4 seconds. It is easy to get atleast 20 stacks on any mage. It essentially is a 120 ability power item when needed. IE, going to all in an opponent and makes gap closing to burst a target easier with movement speed or kiting away a diving assassin/diver/tank. That gets better the longer you hold off on using it. > > Also, stattik shiv was used in past seasons for a strong mid game spike for champs such as old graves due to Avarice Blade giving gold to get to items quicker unlike phantom dancer and to take over game during mid game and just try and get as many towers as possible, or to get after getting phantom dancer as a value add on champs such as vayne for better waveclear. My problem with spellbinder is that the active duration is unbelieveable short just count to 4seconds it's really shorter than it sounds.. ingame u are using 1Skill rotation and the buff is gone. In my opinion they should change the active or remove it. For example (capped at 50Stacks/duration increased to 7 second) Or u remove the active entirely and just add 20extra ap on it. I don't think that it's a good snowball item, but yeah it is in some kind of way a snowball item, i still dislike it, and think riot could have made it work better for mages, without making it broken. There is also still a huge difference when shiv get's purchased as a third item rather then being the first item^^ I know that it doesn't get rushed as a first item every time. but mostly of the time Adcs build {{item:1038}} followed by {{item:3087}} and then they start to heavely waveclear already at 12 minutes. Can we just ignore shiv for a moment and talk About the other thingys XD. I only mentioned shiv for being one of the reasons why mages aren't that impactful Midgame currently. I'm not completely blaming shiv. One item does not break everything, It's a bit of everything that has been changed in the Past. For example i do agree that mages were to Strong and that their items like "dfg" had to be removed or that "zhonyas" had to be nerft. However i do not think that almost every item that once gave 120-100Ap had to be nerft and i think that this all adds up to a very very bad Snowball effect for the Mage class. The current ludens also get's overated by alot, While yes, it indeed does help mages, but the effect is not as big as alot of Players think, the reason for that is the Cost for the Items. Old {{item:3165}} for example costed 2900 gold It gave us 100Ap, same cdr, and the mana on kill back. While {{item:3285}} costs 3.3K gold gives 90Ap, 20% cdr, instead of mana per kill back 500Mana, and the passive of Ludens. If u just look at the gold difference you could basically say, to get ludens now, you would have gotten {{item:3165}} and a {{item:1052}} that alone together gives us 120ap vs 90 AP. So ludens Yes it is better, but Players keep thinking we deal 200extra damage, when the damage actually is more like around 50-60 full combo, and that isn't enough to fix it. Also riot wanted us to go either ludens or glp, however they guttet Glp. I was one of the only Ahri mains that always buildet glp on the old patch. Now it's just worthless, the same cost, no hp anymore which was a big + before update. 200Mana more that a burst mage doesn't want anyways, and the active is just worthless. it doesn't pierce through enemys anymore, which means in alot of situations you can't land it on alot of targets + the ap scaling got almost halfed, it basically deals no damage compared to before. Riot wanted to archieve that we can rush different first items with the changes, but all that we do now, is building ludens instead of morello, and dps mages like ryze cassio, rush seraph.
It's kinda the point of the item. Is to have a huge burst increase when stacked at 100 or have it be used in short bursts at 20 stacks and use it to help close a gap to land skills, along side a small increase in ability power. Keeping in mind the cooldown is 60 seconds. The point of the item is to avoid having a DFG that basically allowed mages to 1 shot tanks, but keeping an effective tool to be used against squishes.
Skycrowx (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Geshultz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8KFmi14G,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-02-27T20:08:58.162+0000) > > Well, sorry to burst your bubble. Stattik shiv has been in the game since preseason season 3. Meaning ADCs during seasons 3- modern day have had access to waveclear and burst if they wanted to buy the item. The main difference was back then it was an item that had an even stronger mid game spike off of the item; however, it had a worst late game scaling then today's stattik shiv. Though currently mages itemization does exist for mid game carries and late game carries. It is just that not all mages are mid game carries. Example, {{champion:161}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:103}} are all mid game carries that fall off towards late game as poke becomes less effective as the game goes on and for ahri it becomes harder to hit a charm against an important target. Well, past 35 minutes things like {{champion:45}} {{champion:69}} start to take over the game. Shiv was never used in past seasons, and i'm not blaming shiv, all i said is that shiv indirectly nerfs the Impact of mages having midgame, because now it's way easier for an adc to stay save and Waveclear. Even if it's just a little it does indirectly nerf the Mage. To top it off almost every Ap item as a Single item has lost ap, while rabadons keeps getting stronger and stronger. If i remember correctly in season 5 rabadons gave only 30% Ap and we still reached the same amount of ap in total, this is because the power of a Single item kept getting shiftet towards rabadons, and this makes us weaker on our first two items, like it or not. it's a fact and we can't deny that, if u read the items numbers past season you will clearly notice of how much Ap we have lost lol. (this is why i said mages aren't strong anymore midgame like alot of people still say) All i want is a 120Ap full damage item, can't i ask for that one thing that allows me maybe to dominate the game by makro and right decision making? because i kept solo Killing my laner 4-5 times? I think it's unfair that a Adc is allowed to do exactly that, but the mage is so much harder limited in fear of toxic burst and much more. If riot would give us a 120Ap item and reduces rabas passive to 30% back, it would be WAY better.
I mean they did do it this patch. They made luden's echo into a rushable first item. It basically a really strong mid game spike for mages, along side the new AP item spell binder which grants 100 AP and 10% movement speed for 2.8k gold on top of the passive that adds ability power and movement speed for 4 seconds. It is easy to get atleast 20 stacks on any mage. It essentially is a 120 ability power item when needed. IE, going to all in an opponent and makes gap closing to burst a target easier with movement speed or kiting away a diving assassin/diver/tank. That gets better the longer you hold off on using it. Also, stattik shiv was used in past seasons for a strong mid game spike for champs such as old graves due to Avarice Blade giving gold to get to items quicker unlike phantom dancer and to take over game during mid game and just try and get as many towers as possible, or to get after getting phantom dancer as a value add on champs such as vayne for better waveclear. https://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_World_Championship/Scoreboards/Group_Stage/Group_A Example of being bought in competive on caitlyn was SK Telecom T1 vs lemondogs.
Jmman (NA)
: Are mages really late game compared to Tanks/adcs/bruisers? My opinion is they are a shell compared to the "other" late game types. Plus most win rate of Mages drop off ALOT late game. This doesn't make sense. Your power spike is now "late game" meaning your just a Support / 2nd class dps unless you play a select mage or two. This seem like Less diversity for mages and more for everyone else.
It depends on the mage. Things like {{champion:45}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:30}} do scale extremely well and typically better then other tanks, fighters or other non-hyper carry botlane marksmen.
Skycrowx (EUW)
: Mages aren't strong anymore midgame like they used to be.
Well, sorry to burst your bubble. Stattik shiv has been in the game since preseason season 3. Meaning ADCs during seasons 3- modern day have had access to waveclear and burst if they wanted to buy the item. The main difference was back then it was an item that had an even stronger mid game spike off of the item; however, it had a worst late game scaling then today's stattik shiv. Though currently mages itemization does exist for mid game carries and late game carries. It is just that not all mages are mid game carries. Example, {{champion:161}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:103}} are all mid game carries that fall off towards late game as poke becomes less effective as the game goes on and for ahri it becomes harder to hit a charm against an important target. Well, past 35 minutes things like {{champion:45}} {{champion:69}} start to take over the game.
: can someone in plat+ answer me this?
There definitively a major skill difference. The main skill difference typically is better macro play then people in silver. For example, less chasing of kills and instead going for towers. Mechanics difference is smaller or bigger depending on roles and class. In silver adcs don't orbwalk at all, or lack mechanics to dodge skill shots ect. Well, in plat + skillshot dodging and orbwalking are a normal thing that adcs do. Well, that and plats in general are better at knowing when to trade and when to avoid trading and all that other stuff.
: Looking for a ranged splitpusher who scales well
Well, {{champion:164}} and {{champion:114}} are both pretty self-sufficient and can get into range and out of range with ease. Both are good at split pushing as well, and in Camille's case good at engaging fights or picks.
: Predictions about the new ADC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=KYoUO62FC0s I mean your not wrong. Her entire kit isn't going to work taking 7 seconds to kill the feeding rumble with equal levels and is probably more fed. Her entire kit doesn't work at all unless she has insanely overturned numbers. I mean she has literally 2 tools to work with. A dash that makes her go into melee range with a 3 second ad shield and 1 second invisibility with a movement speed increase. In most cases shes just going to get one shot by the mage, assassin or whatever, before she even does enough damage to kill the opponent; meaning she going to need over tuned numbers for her kit to work at all.
: Exactly. Any champ that gets fed looks broken. Just because I get crushed by, say, a kassadin doesn't automatically make Kassadin broken. The person just played the champ well and built good items. The teasers are showing those sorts of best case scenarios. What, do people think they'd get hyped for a new champ by watching said champ fail miserably? They want you to think the champ looks powerful, of course they'll show it with an optimal build.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=KYoUO62FC0s I mean looking she takes around 7 seconds to kill a feeding rumble. That is with equal levels and is probably more fed. It honestly looks more like a failed kit. That won't work well as an marksmen assassin unless having insanely overturned numbers.
: > [{quoted}](name=Geshultz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVd9cn6z,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-18T07:37:04.146+0000) > > Ping objectives for your team to get. To get them to focus on towers, baron off a pick etc. Ping on the map if you see enemy coming to their lane. Bunch of other options as well. That never works because I am in Silver 5. I still do it every game tho.
Ok, second best thing is to main top/jungle and play split pushers until into gold elo. Such as yi, nasus, yasou, fiora, yorick and other champs. Then abuse enemy team wasting time chasing your team for kills by killing their base.
: > [{quoted}](name=Geshultz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVd9cn6z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-18T07:10:11.254+0000) > > Easily, just ignore them in your games and focus on your own mechanics and macro play. Overtime you'll improve in skill and just carry those bad teammates. Otherwise your just having selective memory of bad teams because the brain remembers bad things more due to survival then the good teammates or ok teammates you get. I couldn't do much in the macro department since I don't know what to improve
Ping objectives for your team to get. To get them to focus on towers, baron off a pick etc. Ping on the map if you see enemy coming to their lane. Bunch of other options as well.
: How can I avoid bad teammates?
Easily, just ignore them in your games and focus on your own mechanics and macro play. Overtime you'll improve in skill and just carry those bad teammates. Otherwise your just having selective memory of bad teams because the brain remembers bad things more due to survival then the good teammates or ok teammates you get.
: Kog is an ADC hyper carry, he is useless until he finishes 1 item* fixed it lol
Kog'maw is a mid game carry actually. It is when kog'maw gets his strongest powerspike with w max + 1 item powerspike. It how he was when triforce was viable on him. It is how he is now with rageblade. He is ok lategame but isn't a hypercarry due to lack of peel make it easy to get onto kog'maw without team support.
Escheton (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Wolfeur,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hEJ7n9nE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-02-13T10:14:35.439+0000) > > Were you there when AP Trist was a thing? It was literally jumping on you, killing you with one spell rotation then jumping back. I was. It was glorious. Because of several reasons: She couldn't 100-0 you unless she was very fed or it was very lategame, and you were squishy with no MR or barrier up. If she did not manage to execute you she was fucked. Most of her damage came from jumping on you, she lacked dps with the AP build. It took an experienced eye to know when she could pull it off. But if she did manage to reset once or twice you felt like she earned it. Unlike now.
It was actually because her e passive applied on spells back then. That if you were in a minion wave and she wed in it would proc her e passive multiple times and 1 shot a person.
shicky97 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rexxiee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6A9HEyWn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-02-13T15:37:49.428+0000) > > kog isnt even weak? 45% wr 5% pick rate. > > So you want every adc to be trash tier? lol Kog **should** be trash tier in a meta where games frequently end at ~23 minutes. Heaven forbid hypercarries actually have to **reach** lategame to be able to murder everyone.
Expect Kog,Maw isn't a hypercarry but a mid game carry because his strongest powerspike is when he reaches max points in w + major powerspike item. That's how he was during when triforce was viable on him, and that's how he is now with rageblade. Kog'maw has an ok lategame damagewise but falls off due to how easy it is to get onto kog'maw.
: I wonder how long we'll have to complain until they finally fix adcs. It's been almost a year that the game has revolved around adcs that outscale everyone and lethality abusers. Remember in early 2k17? When adcs were at their weakest? I'm not saying that adcs should be this weak again, i just want to show that adc will always find a place in the meta. Even at their weakest they always had their place in a team (With the only exception being Ziggs that replaced adcs for some time, but that was only because of his sheer pushing power) Adcs don't need to be that strong. They offer something that other classes don't have, a reliably source of sustained damage.
All classes expect assassins have some champ with a reliable source of sustained damage Mages have {{champion:69}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:268}}{{champion:136}} lesser extent {{champion:34}} , Fighters that have safe reliable DPS {{champion:41}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:2}} , Tanks {{champion:33}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:154}} , Unique {{champion:17}} {{champion:10}}
: "presence of mind" seems to me the most worthless rune, i have literally never intentionally picked this on any champion in any role because the other options in that tree are VASTLY superior
It's actually pretty useful in lane and in teamfights for all champs with low cooldown abilities. For example Kassadin or kog'maw, it allows them to keep pumping out spells without any mana issues. In lane it provides 7 second each level to fast push a lane or attempt to trade without losing any mana at all. It can allow a swain to stay in R for longer period of time. Kassadin to spam rift walk. Kog'maw to spam his ult as just some examples.
: Overheal is supposed to be used for trading. You stack it up on minions and then hit your lane opponent and come out on top due to your shield. Rinse and repeat. It should work quite well alongside fleet footwork and the legend: bloodline rune and maybe even the taste of blood rune from the domination tree should let you keep this pattern up more often but I'm no adc main so I'm just theory crafting here Edit: absolute focus from the sorcery tree would work really well for this type of trade pattern as well
Issue with overheal in lane is that at most it will provide 10 health due to only 40% effectiveness with lifesteal gained from doran's blade before trading starts. (And fleet footwork only give 1 -5 health on minions early on). Making it very suboptimal for trading. Triumph is way better for trading in a duo lane and can save the ADC from death from killing the enemy adc from the support, or killing the support and saving you from enemy adc. The purpose of overheal is to be useful as an anti-burst tool, but it does that job fairly poorly (short duration shield). It would be way more useful if it acted like bloodthirster shield were it has a long duration for example 30 seconds, and had flat healing instead of weird 40% effectiveness on self heal and 300% on healing from other allies.
Rioter Comments
: Where are you getting the stats for her playrate based on games played? I see champion.ggs (which lines up with what you're saying), but Riot has previously called the statistics inaccurate. If her winrate is still 50% or higher for new vayne players, then yeah. If it's something like sub 50% for newer Vayne players and then some higher number for more experience players, then it would be more tolerable. Agree with what you're saying though
League of graphs has vayne's global playrate/winrate at 52% / 28% popularity with the average vayne player having around 25 games going based off the winrate with the games played graph. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/vayne/platinum Which 25 games assuming average of around 28 minutes per game = 11.6 hours of playtime on vayne or 700 minutes.
: Tristana is too easy and too hard to fuck up.
I disagree tristana has plenty of weaknesses in her kit that can be exploited. 1. She is limited to her auto range of 550-669 depending on level. This means she can't retaliate against poke unless she uses her w to close the gap making onto an enemy champion; making her very vulnerable without her w. 2. She is entirely similar to twitch and were her entire kit is upfront damage that falls off after it is used. Making cc during this time or forcing her to jump away wasting time hurt her potential damage greatly. 3. Tristana auto pushes the waves during laning phase making her easier to gank even with her w, and if you can get her under tower it makes it hard for her to cs under tower. 4. Tristana has no tools other then her w to stick onto a target. This means if she uses her e and q on you without using w you can easily just walk away from her wasting her cooldowns and making her easier to fight after they are used. If you have a champion that has a free movement dash/blink she then has no way to stick on to you and you can just waste all her cooldowns. 5. All her damage is single target physical damage with no % health modifiers meaning armor and health stacking is effective against her damage. 6. If she uses abilities on a tower that means she can't use them in a team fight/skirmish greatly hurting her damage in the fight. 7. Tristana's jump has a long animation this is a boon and curse in the sense that a long jump animation can be used to ignore cc for duration but it also means tristana loses a second - 2 seconds worth of damage if you force her to jump away plus the time it takes to travel make to the fight(easily making her loses thousands worth of damage well your adc is still damaging their front line). Her long animation makes it also rather easy for displacements/knockups to cancel her jump. Best example of this in practice is thresh against tristana. It also means quick burst is extremely effective against tristana's jump IE rengar, talon, et ceteria. There are other weaknesses, but this is just the weaknesses I currently can think of well tired.
Dasdi96 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JxOW7FQX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-12-12T14:14:07.707+0000) > > Lol IE has been nerfed pretty hard. You're conveniently "forgetting" that it had 25% crit chance ***and*** 80 AD for 3800g No, back in early season 4 it had only 70. It got buffed to 80 in patch 4.10
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Infinity_Edge Actually it had before season 4. During season 2-3 it had 80 ad and 25% crit chance for 3830 gold for about a year and 3/4 from April 12th 2011 to December 11th 2012
Rioter Comments
: First: Not except ADCs. You can't just discount an item because you don't know why it's good. Then there's the simple fact than any ADCs who benefit more from CDR than crit just build Lethality items and hit 30% anyway. Second: Yes. As I said, it was for juggernauts. 1.5% of of an ADC's HP is between 10 and 25 AD. It was never a good option for anyone but juggs. Its removal had no effect on the majority of champions, and the champions who did build it were buffed around the same time. Third and Fourth: Infinity Edge lost FIVE crit chance, while Runaan's gained 30% and Shiv gained 10%. If you somehow think 45 is the same as 50, I can't help you. That said, 35+20+25 = a whopping total of 80%, 90% if you add on the old Youmuu's. Now the total crit available is 140% even with Youmuu's removal. Then recently, all crit items had their costs reduced. Do your homework next time.
Infinity edge lost 10 ad + 5% crit chance(Became 400 gold cheaper). Phantom dancer lost 5% crit chance and 5% attack speed(But got reduce be 200 gold cheaper and gained 12% damage reduction vs a single target and 7% movement speed against targets within 550 auto attack range). Bloodthirster had lost 20 ad but gained 2% LS(and a 350 hp shield at lvl 18), Mecurial gained 10% lifesteal but lost 15 ad and the ability to cleanse all debuffs (Only cleanses cc now). Lost total % armor penetration on Last whisper(Use to by up to 40% total armor %). Now is only 35% bonus armor penetration with either grievous wounds or 20% increased physical damage with 1k+ health difference(Note this % increase is still effected by total armor IE if a target has a 100 armor it effectively cuts the % increase to 10% . Stattik shiv is probably only item that has been purely buffed. Hurricane has been reworked to have crit due to be very niche before. It has been nerfed and buffed (Lost its on hit damage to single targets, but increased bolt % ad ratio) (Well hurricane lost 30% AS for the crit). Note this is just ADC itemization alone. Everyone has lost magic resistance across the board. Well during this patch mages have gotten buffs to Sorc boots 15 magic penetration to 18 and an increase on void staff total mr % from 35% to 40%. The point of this is that the game has indeed reduced the stats of items across the board for every class since start of league, but the current preseason burst is in an extremely good spot right now. More specifically mobile burst that can use sudden impact for the extra 7 magic penetration/10 lethality. O and all lethality items got a 2 lethality increase for a total of 6 lethality increase across the board. Yes, I play ADC role, but I also play tanks. I been finding tanks to be way more relevant then adcs currently. *Well, most of the meta is focused on jungle/mid centric currently right now.*
: Are there any champions that counter Vayne? (serious)
Simple answer all champions with point and click cc and any form of disengage counter her. Especially champions that have amazing siege that can abuse her pre 30 minutes that can just force a gold lead that vayne can't recover from. In particular counters to vayne literally siege comps/ disengage comps /heavy engage comps counter her hard and Area of effect comps as well. Basically everything that is good at team fights and sieges counters vayne cause vayne kite sucks ass outside of skirmishes and duels.
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Geshultz

Level 93 (NA)
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