: Patch 7.24b notes
What about some Domination + secondary path or Precision + secondary path damage nerfs? Damage is still likely to be too high across the board.
: > [{quoted}](name=WhiteUranium,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eZaQP6oh,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-13T16:17:12.939+0000) > > Smh. So instead of having her pay for a new computer screen and moving on, you decided to hold a grudge and fuck over her exam scores? Sure, as a teacher I don't condone cheating, but c'mon man. You're her brother. There's such a thing as taking it too far. > > Having someone fail and exam and someone else lose a game of league are two different things. You could always just use headphones instead of playing on speaker volume. If you think this is taking it too far does that mean if you found out that one of your students made a cheat sheet for an exam then you wouldn't take it away and let him/her use it on the exam?
> [{quoted}](name=GlobDaBlob,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eZaQP6oh,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-13T16:24:43.309+0000) > > If you think this is taking it too far does that mean if you found out that one of your students made a cheat sheet for an exam then you wouldn't take it away and let him/her use it on the exam? Cheat sheets aren't always banned. Another name for a cheat sheet could be "you can use notes on the test"... I always called it a cheat sheet in college even when it was allowed because it allowed you to cheat the time it would take to finish the test.
: This is a VERY different ask, and one that I can't really speak to. Wanna be straight up - I don't know enough about the context for the rune crowd control rules and the effects that would have on gameplay to answer this one intelligently. The decision for the types of crowd control on Aftershock WAS made with intent & the help of much testing though. Alls I got is the answer for the original Q though, apologies.
Can we give morde a 0.001 second snare on mordes E or W's second pop? That way he could use aftershock. {{sticker:sg-ahri-2}}
D3m37r1 (NA)
: Tbh you could build ap {{champion:67}} on howling abyss and it would work as long as you picked dark harvest.
To be fair, this is my dedicated aram page for all champions, including karthus...
: Laughing Fish's 200,000 lifetime upvote spectacular! (Come and get your free skins!)
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Ookaji (NA)
: [GAMEPLAY] [BUG] Ok yeah lets take dragon real qui-
Rockman (NA)
: so close
Wish I had 50% off the 1350 champs in my shop 30% isn't worth getting even thunder orn.
: And i hear on boards that people often play yas on seperate accounts to avoid loosing mmr when starting to play yas because the tend to loose a lot when you are new on him.
I would believe it, I would do the same with champs like lee taliah or the likes.
: Irrelevant information. It's not why he's receiving buffs. He's seeing buffs because even after 100+ games, yasuo players are struggling to even reach a 50% winrate. The higher up the ladder you go, the less played he is, and the lower his winrate is. In Masters tier, he's rank 103 in picked with a 48% winrate. In Challenger he's 86 with a 38% winrate. Players picking Yasuo in these divisions aren't first timing them. They probably arent even 20th timing him. These players know what they're doing, and even within these conditions, they fail to make yasuo a relevant champion. 38% winrate in challenger is insanely low. The buffs are targeted at making him a more relevant pick for those who invest the time to master his kit. He's one of, if not, the hardest character in the game. According to riot, committing to absolute mastery should result in a higher winrate than where he's sitting right now. He cant use Press the Attack as effectively as he could Fervor. Many of the new runes aren't favorable for him. He's squishy with low base stats, only his 20 second windwall CD protects him against mage poke and his flow passive is a joke in a damage creep meta. In midlane, he has 8 matchups above 50% (only one of which is above a 55%), 9 below a 45%, and 25 matchups between 45% and 50%. He doesn't work in the current metagame, especially when you look at the champions that he's strong and weak against. More of his counters see play than champions he counters as well, if you look at their play rates. Toplane is similar. He can fight some tanks, but rolls over against most fighters, and you will never be able to viably first pick yasuo against a competent toplaner. In addition, look at his winrate graphs on trends. Toplane Yasuo saw a 6% winrate dip and Mid Yasuo saw a 4% winrate dip when 7.22 came along and he's been dropping every patch since.
Maybe he shouldn't be picked as often as he is in as many situations as he is. For the current meta he should be a niche pick...
: "your snowdown shop opens december 12th"
: > [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=001b000200010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-12T06:35:13.852+0000) > > I actually want to know what every champions "promised" winrate is now? Is my promised winrate on yasuo supposed to be 60% winrate? What about Volibear 52%? How does the "promised" winrate correlate to MMR. > > Does this also mean that since Yasuo "has the highest average games played per player out of EVERY champion in League" That most of them are OTP's and statistically yasuo should have a 55% average winrate since all players are OTP's? Which means that he should just because you are playing him and have played him enough games always win? > > How does his "promised winrate" work when you are against someone else that is equally skilled? Does this mean that because I play Morde I'm less likely to win because my "promised winrate" is lower? I have so many questions about how Riot even determines "promised winrates" for each champion. I think they do not consider the fact that account is not equal with player. Literaly (ATTENTION EXTREME EXAMPLE) every yasuo player could play yas on thier secondary account with thier least played champs have more games on them on thier primarely, than yas on thier secondary. And still their data would show thay yasou have the most played games per player.
They probably don't take into account secondary accounts. I didn't even think of that one. So how does that influence data as well? I'm glad you brought this up.
Ponderss (NA)
: That is exactly what they are saying. The explanation at least reads like they are suggesting that because Yas has a high play rate, that his "promised" (undefined) win rate should scale along with it. In reality, Yas has a high play rate because his kit is traditionally overpowered and as a result he's an oppressive presence that gets results and fan boys. Its a vicious cycle.
I actually want to know what every champions "promised" winrate is now? Is my promised winrate on yasuo supposed to be 60% winrate? What about Volibear 52%? How does the "promised" winrate correlate to MMR. Does this also mean that since Yasuo "has the highest average games played per player out of EVERY champion in League" That most of them are OTP's and statistically yasuo should have a 55% average winrate since all players are OTP's? Which means that he should just because you are playing him and have played him enough games always win? How does his "promised winrate" work when you are against someone else that is equally skilled? Does this mean that because I play Morde I'm less likely to win because my "promised winrate" is lower? I have so many questions about how Riot even determines "promised winrates" for each champion.
Rioter Comments
3Trees (NA)
: This is a well thought out post and deserves attention. Thank you for putting out data. I feel disgruntled b/c they have left many other champs like Viktor or Azir in the dumps for months at a time, and then rush w/ 3 buffs for yasuo... if they one buff, waited a patch or two, and then maybe another it would be easier to stomach, but this feels like they're rushing to prop him up.
Thank you very much for your kind words. I just really wish riot would give us actual factual data rather than making ambiguous comments that can refer to multiple champions. The data that we have is too incomplete to draw the same assumptions that Riot makes. Then when riot makes a mistake like the ap galio fiasco that just happened (where people warned that it would happen) they just dismiss it for "whoops trust us".
: > [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t129tUJf,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T02:19:22.334+0000) > > The fact that they considered buffing him for the worlds patches makes me sick. > > "I made the call for us not to ship a changelist that looked VERY similar to this before Worlds when we were doing our World's patches" > > Things like this are why Riot's player base is so paranoid about changes. I think it counts that they didn't ship it. Makes me less paranoid, idk about others. > > " He's one of the more popular champions" > > Things like this also make me wonder why we are trying to force a 50% winrate or higher on popular champions. I'm not actually really sure I understand why any champion with such a high playrate should have a high winrate. Yasuo has a large but _dedicated_. That's different than just a high playrate. He's basically in the dumpster like Azir was, but he's additionally still not viable in pro play. > > It makes me feel like I should just start playing the most popular champ just to improve my own winrate. Why not play him? I > I mean if almost everyone can get a 54-55% winrate (not refering to yasuo) why shouldn't I hop on the popularity train too? That's a personal choice, but I think enough games on a champ while learning their matchups and kit nuances should mean I'd win more games and gain back at least what I might have lost while learning them. :/
> [{quoted}](name=LostFr0st,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t129tUJf,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T02:30:15.282+0000) > > Yasuo has a large but _dedicated_. That's different than just a high playrate. I'm not really sure how to discuss this one. Because there is playrate/player and playrate/total lol players. Yasuo has a high "breadth and depth" Meaning that he is likely to be played by both dedicated players and "just trying him out" players alike. Flat out "He's one of the more popular champions" (not even my words, its a quote from riot above). So his high playrate in this case likely isn't just One Trick Ponies. If his playerbase was all OTP's and he was #7 playrate I would expect a good 60% winrate. However with a large Breadth and Depth I don't think that its just his OTP's are getting him up to #7 in playrate. He is number 7 in games played for the last 7 days, #7 for the "today rank" http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ > That's a personal choice, but I think enough games on a champ while learning their matchups and kit nuances should mean I'd win more games and gain back at least what I might have lost while learning them. :/ Yea, but if you look at pop up champions histories some champions don't even appear to need to know matchups to succeed. I would argue that the 54%+ champions with popularity in the top 10 (missfortune) are pickup-able within 5 games.
: Maple Nectar gave a pretty good argument for the Yasuo buffs at least. Apparently they have been holding these buffs for quite some time already. There are more comments than the ones below but these are the most straightforward ones regarding the buffs. ---------------- > [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n3yYGLHe,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-12-08T23:00:08.254+0000) > > Yasuo lost a fair bit of his power as we headed into the pre-season, and then got brought down further with Press The Attack nerfs last patch. Leaving him at 44-45% winrate feels quite awful for a champion that has one of the most dedicated playerbases, Not to mention the fact that he's a champion who drops off steeply in effectiveness the farther you climb. giving him even just some power back doesn't feel inappropriate. Referencing all of the things we nerfed on him in the past is somewhat misleading, since you're talking about a time before runes reforged, and he was sporting a winrate over 50% of his games. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n3yYGLHe-20-q-damage-200-range-ulti-buffed-mr?comment=0006 ---------------------- > [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n3yYGLHe,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2017-12-08T23:27:45.011+0000) > > The statement of "only a few people play him" is actually quite incorrect. He's one of the more popular champions, who also happens to dedicate the most time to mastering him. We did a really cool (in my opinion) blog on appeal vs stickiness (breadth vs depth) of champions which might be of interest to you! You can check it out [here](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/11/champ-popularity-mixing-math-art/)! The charts halfway down would likely be of interest in particular! > > He's a champion that stands the test of time in regards to popularity even when he's weak. Meaning that the number of people playing Yasuo before/after preseason is probably actually roughly equal, only the version they're playing after is far weaker. This translates to more games with a Yasuo in them likely translating to a stomp for the team with a Yasuo on them, because even when they've mastered the champion over hundreds of games, they're "reward" is still losing over half their games, which bucks the trend of what you would expect from a mastery curve. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n3yYGLHe-20-q-damage-200-range-ulti-buffed-mr?comment=000600000001 ------------- Specifically about holding the buffs: > [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n3yYGLHe,comment-id=000600000001000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-09T01:18:31.493+0000) > > I'm going to go ahead and just shut this right the heck down. I made the call for us **not** to ship a changelist that looked VERY similar to this before Worlds when we were doing our World's patches. At that point Yasuo was already winning >50% of his games, and while the changes were targeted more at making him viable in pro play, it was also undeniably a buff to him and did not feel responsible given he was already doing well on Live. Would it have been better if we saw Yasuo in more games at Worlds for "our bottom line", probably, but we explicitly made the call NOT to take the risk for the live game, and even if we'd shipped it, the reason would have been having a high skill expression champion at our largest event at the year, not to "generate sales". https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n3yYGLHe-20-q-damage-200-range-ulti-buffed-mr?comment=000600000001000000010000
The fact that they considered buffing him for the worlds patches makes me sick. "I made the call for us not to ship a changelist that looked VERY similar to this before Worlds when we were doing our World's patches" Things like this are why Riot's player base is so paranoid about changes. " He's one of the more popular champions" Things like this also make me wonder why we are trying to force a 50% winrate or higher on popular champions. I'm not actually really sure I understand why any champion with such a high playrate should have a high winrate. It makes me feel like I should just start playing the most popular champ just to improve my own winrate. Why not play him? I mean if almost everyone can get a 54-55% winrate (not refering to yasuo) why shouldn't I hop on the popularity train too?
: Sometimes those champs haven't been in the "op" bucket in months, yet their mains remained in high elo. It was only after the Rune changes that the champions became harder to win with even with their extreme skill mastery of the champ and knowing all the champs lane matchups. Due to the above, I find it hard to argue against buffing them.
> [{quoted}](name=LostFr0st,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t129tUJf,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T01:32:25.497+0000) > > Sometimes those champs haven't been in the "op" bucket in months, yet their mains remained in high elo. > It was only after the Rune changes that the champions became harder to win with even with their extreme skill mastery of the champ and knowing all the champs lane matchups. > > Due to the above, I find it hard to argue against buffing them. Don't quote me on this, but I believe riot also said their goal wasn't to immediately get everyone to 50% winrate. I also find there to be no reason to rush these buffs out.
: > even with the largest number of players who HAVE mastered him, he's struggling to win the "promised" number of games based on what you would expect from a mastery curve (this is just one of the reasons). While I'm aware that this can seem a little nit picky, could you please define specifically what you are referring to as a champ having MASTERED a champion? Are you referring to players of Mastery Rank 7? Mastery Rank 6? Or are you using some other definition? In which case, could you share that with us? I mean not to be mean, but the fact that the soft data point of "Trust" in Riot's ability to Balance and Patch their own game is low among the old dogs that have played through S1, S2, or even S3 as their starting seasons in particular. Now yes, the Riot of now is hardly the same as the Riot of then, but the fact that I still regularly hear this from players that even started in later seasons - even so recent as S6 being their starting season appears to indicate that this is more than "just a meme". Now this isn't a direct criticism on anyone being able to do their job, but the fact that there's such an apparent lack in trust in Riot's ability to handle their own game isn't something that can be casually dismissed.
> [{quoted}](name=ShadowJezus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=001b0031,timestamp=2017-12-12T01:24:46.386+0000) > > Now this isn't a direct criticism on anyone being able to do their job, but the fact that there's such an apparent lack in trust in Riot's ability to handle their own game isn't something that can be casually dismissed. I think that we need Riot to actually release some internal data on things like winrate and winrate/mastery and etc.. Honestly the reason I think that hey haven't done this is because it would show the bias in their balancing. What better way to say I know best then to say "I have all this data that points to x champion needing a buff". Buffing said champ. Not releasing any data on why that champion actually needed a buff.
: > [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-12-10T23:06:26.193+0000) > > No we are not buffing Yasuo because he's popular/has a large player base. We are buffing him because he has the highest average games played per player out of EVERY champion in League, and even with the largest number of players who HAVE mastered him, he's struggling to win the "promised" number of games based on what you would expect from a mastery curve (this is just one of the reasons). Long story short - we're buffing him because he is NOT a balanced champion currently, and it's our job to react to champions like him accordingly. Can you share any internal data on whether Yasuo's win rate differs significantly based on the team comps he's a part of? I feel like Yasuo should see a below-50% win rate for two reasons, and you're only addressing one of them (that he's a high skill cap champion and players that haven't put a lot of time in to him will do poorly on him). The second reason which I've not seen addressed anywhere, is that Yasuo simply does not fit in the majority of team comps in league. That should make him a niche champion, and yet as the graphs Riot released show he has the widest and deepest playerbase of all champions (I think largest breadth, and second deepest after Kayn). That's a **huge** red flag to me. Why is a niche champion being played so much? Is it because the teams that allow him to thrive are super popular right now? **Absolutely not. The meta is actually very against comps that Yasuo would thrive in.** So the alternative is that players are **picking Yasuo in the wrong situations**. Why is Riot buffing a champion who is losing games that **he should lose**? What do you want your mid laner to bring to a game of league? Typically a threatening amount of magic damage, ranged waveclear to stall from behind, and some utility. If you look at historically good mid laners they all have all of these: {{champion:103}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:99}} etc... all demonstrate all of these properties. Yasuo **demonstrates none of them.** What do you want your top laner to bring to a game of league? Typically engage, peel, tankiness. In the recent meta even more than ever, you want a lot of peel and tankiness to let your ADC thrive. **Yasuo does none of this.** Then, Yasuo has a kit that's more dependent on allies than most champions. His ultimate is only usable on champions that are airborne, and he only has a somewhat unreliable way of doing it himself and often only on one target. Allies like {{champion:154}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:516}} etc... are great for Yasuo because they can knockup multiple enemies fairly reliably. Most champions don't bring AOE knockups for Yasuo to thrive with. You throw all of this together, and I'd expect that if Yasuo is being consistently picked with disregard to his team comp (which as we've all seen in solo queue, that last pick mid goes Yasuo in to allied {{champion:23}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:222}}). In games like that, he should lose. Yet I've had plenty of games like that where I'm on a true tank and stacking 300 armor and still struggling to win what should be free because Yasuo just puts out soo much damage through armor. So what I want to know: is Yasuo mid seeing a sub-50% win rate in all team comps, or is his win rate varying a lot across different teams? What is Yasuo's average win rate with any of these champions on his team: {{champion:12}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:143}} ? What about with these champions? {{champion:254}} {{champion:40}}, Support {{champion:63}} (i.e. his support can bring the magic damage). Or better yet, use the data to identify which champions Yasuo does well with, and see if he's consistently winning over 50% with a subset of specific champions. Tell me those are under 50% and I can be on board with Yasuo buffs. If they're like 54% then I think it's clear that Yasuo mains are just picking him knowing it's not a good time to do so, and they shouldn't get compensated for that. They're volunteering to have a sub-50% win rate if they're going to pick like that.
> I think it's clear that Yasuo mains are just picking him knowing it's not a good time to do so, and they shouldn't get compensated for that. So you are saying that he might be getting played too often? Wouldn't surprise me as the 7thish most played champ http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ Just look at the number of games played on him when compared to other champions... Maybe, just maybe he is played too much.
: >I've recently read that champions with below average win rates who also have a large number of players who've "mastered" them are champions Riot looks to buff. This was in reference to champion mains of high-elo (D2--> Masters+), not with regards to champ mastery score. Buffing for mastery score would be silly {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
There could just be too many of that champions main's in high elo... Have you ever considered that some of them only got there because a champion was op, and they were just really good with that champion?
KilljoyX (NA)
: Virtually quit league heres a report from the outside.
> [{quoted}](name=KilljoyX,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Z650OrZX,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-12T00:29:53.046+0000) > > > 5) Any one got some recommendations for stuff to watch? My wife and I like fairy tail. Has like 300 episodes. I would also suggest Lucifer and Supernatural for non-anime
: In all fairness, they sure aren't doing anything to disprove any kind of bias on their part. Prime example being the Forbidden Idol nerfs, despite even Meddler saying that Enchanters aren't out of line right now. Not to mention how hard they came down on Sona this past month, while being careful with other, worse outliers.
They are trying to close down threads with clear intent to call them out on their bias. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Otbcp5TK-were-buffing-yasuo-because-he-has-a-large-playerbase Without using data to back up their arguments they are always going to sound biased.
akalmulla (EUW)
: Highest damage dealt to champions in 1 game
> [{quoted}](name=akalmulla,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Rm3ePfoy,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-12T00:51:29.930+0000) > > In one game today as fiddle, i managed to deal** 101k** damage, Total damage to champions > > I wonder if that is a world record? Saw a 35 minute aram with 84k damage so I'm pretty sure no.
: Those hand-holding mechanics are so busted and OP that his winrate has dropped substantially! Wait -
Or maybe they were playing above their skill level because they were playing an OP champ that then got nerfed. If you OTP a champ that gets buffed and you climb a tier of play, if that champion gets nerfed you are likely to drop back down to your previous tier of play.
CoffeeMug (EUNE)
: People are like triggered,because Yas (prior to the preseason) was doing fine and some champions weren't.After the preseason he's doing worse and Rito jumps in to buff,yet champion we were/are bad still didn't get the "care package" of his scale. The reason is for the change was his immense popularity,which combined with his state would result in games lost just cause he's in them. Tho it's a good reason to give him a buff or few,it doesn't change the fact that it implies that champions with even worse statistics won't get love anytime soon. If they actually buffed those champions into a playable state,their popularity might increase. Any community has different opinions.Some think the buffs are necessary,some dont,some dont care cause their picks might shit on Yasuo anyways,while others(like me) are more concerned with the direction those buffs are going.
>Any community has different opinions.Some think the buffs are necessary,some dont,some dont care cause their picks might shit on Yasuo anyways,while others(like me) are more concerned with the direction those buffs are going. For me personally I Don't give a shit about the actual Yasuo buffs. I love fighting yasuo as a Morde main. Morde typically just trashes him. So I say this with the best intentions buff yasuo, but don't lie to us that its because he is just in a poor state. >The reason is for the change was his immense popularity,which combined with his state would result in games lost just cause he's in them. OFC Yasuo players are going to be losing after major changes. Some players climbed too well on a champion that was broken. If I for example climbed to Master tier on only Morde, and they nerfed morde significantly OFC I would drop down to diamond, or even lower. If I dare even play another champ I might even drop lower to plat or gold. Just because there is a large number of players under-preforming compared to a previous season does not mean there is an issue. Look at those 1% player base champs that have a 55% winrate, are they op, or is it because noone except the best of that champions players are playing him?
: Certainly relevant, however balance policies have changed over the years. And Lee Sin has since passed from the spotlight. _Edit - Counterargument: Riot jumped on Sona pretty hard recently despite player outcries_
Sona also didn't have 35% of the player base playing her. (which was lee's playerbase at the time of morello's post)
: > [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RuihF8QF,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T22:58:20.234+0000) > > So that is why some champions don't get touched for multiple seasons. Volibear, Olaf, Morde, Skarner... > While others get significant changes often. Yasuo, Lee Sin, Vayne... Correlation does not equal causation. We still have no evidence to connect these events to the opinions or intentions of Riot(ers). Simply saying, "Well it could be true, so it must be!" is not good reasoning. Occam's Razor only works when you have eliminated all other possibilities. Otherwise you're just cherry picking a theory that fits with your world-view whilst ignoring other perfectly reasonable possibilities. Historically Yasuo, Lee Sin, and Vayne have had balance, counterplay, or strength issues that needed addressing. So Riot nerfing, buffing, or reworking these champions does not mean they are pushing a secret agenda. It could just as easily be that those champions presented a large balance issue because of how overbearing they could be, and are more volatile in the meta. And Volibear, Olaf, Morde and Skarner have been less volatile in the meta and so they might require less balance tuning. Just an example of how you're using Occam's Razor without eliminating all the possibilities.
> [{quoted}](name=HalcyonDweller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RuihF8QF,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:19:55.507+0000) > > Correlation does not equal causation. We still have no evidence to connect these events to the opinions or intentions of Riot(ers). Little old, still applies. https://imgur.com/4jfzIfM
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=001b0028,timestamp=2017-12-11T19:25:22.172+0000) > > SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE FOLKS IN THE BACK! QUOTING IS GREAT (W/SOURCE) BUT ADDING THINGS NO ONE SAID IS MISLEADING! > > https://i.redd.it/5ddtf5am92zx.jpg The OP has since revised the OP, maybe you can actually add something useful as a red given the thread is directed towards the actions of riot's balance team. If nothing else, you can perhaps explain why the fuck we're forced to use third party websites that you people declare "inaccurate" instead of being given this oh so precious, top secret company data (champion wr, pr, br, etc.) that would surely compromise the company!
They just want to shut down the thread before people remember things like: https://imgur.com/4jfzIfM They are also probably upset that I called them out on biased balancing. Honestly there is no way to not balance Biasedly. No matter who you are you aren't going to try and always give your favorite class and play style the best tools. Its like having a favorite food. Would you rather eat your favorite food or something that you don't like? Yea uhhh I thought so. You picked your favorite food.
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=001b0028,timestamp=2017-12-11T19:25:22.172+0000) > > SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE FOLKS IN THE BACK! QUOTING IS GREAT (W/SOURCE) BUT ADDING THINGS NO ONE SAID IS MISLEADING! > > https://i.redd.it/5ddtf5am92zx.jpg It prolly would carry less weight if Riot hasn't gone on record as taking playerbase size into character balance back during the whole lee sin heyday. Unfortunately the credibility damage that did STILL weighs in on people now. Everyone is well aware by this point that how lucrative financially a character is is taken into account by Riots teams when it comes to balancing. No amount of damage control for erase that, it will make the community further resent you for treating them like gullible idiots.
> [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=001b00280002,timestamp=2017-12-11T21:05:43.964+0000) > > It prolly would carry less weight if Riot hasn't gone on record as taking playerbase size into character balance back during the whole lee sin heyday. > > Unfortunately the credibility damage that did STILL weighs in on people now. Everyone is well aware by this point that how lucrative financially a character is is taken into account by Riots teams when it comes to balancing. > > No amount of damage control for erase that, it will make the community further resent you for treating them like gullible idiots. You sound like more of a conspiracy theorist than I do, sadly I too remember those days of https://imgur.com/4jfzIfM Oh yea, popularity doesn't determine buffs at all.
: But the win rate shouldn't matter. LeBlanc has historically had a winrate of 44-48% (though she's currently at about 50% as of this patch), yet she's seen nerf after nerf over the past 2-3 seasons. Why should Yasuo be any different?
Leblank isn't popular enough is the only explanation I can come up with. Especially since riot won't give us actual data on why they are doing things. They like to just go "this is why we are doing it" -with no backed data.
: Because Yasuo was fine at the end of last season and his winrate has since declined 4%
There were other champs fine at the end of last season, and have declined winrate. Why aren't we talking about those champs?
: There comes a time when this "oh fix him he's easy to fix, we'll work on the harder stuff after" gets old. I'm thinking, when that same line has shoved champs like Skarner to the back of the line for....well over a year at this point? Probably over two? But oh no, we're not past time for triage to be thrown out in favor of _a job done right,_ Yasuo's not in JUST EXACTLY THE PERFECT SPOT. Maybe after he can stop suffering _winning less often_ for awhile, we can get to bigger problems. Except these easily-fixed problems never seem to end. And the champions most in need of help seem to sit and collect dust. Two years ago, this answer would have satisfied me, because it made sense. But it _only_ made sense because I thought the bigger problems were being worked on. So now, no. This answer is not acceptable. Because either the problems are _not_ being worked on, or they _are_ being worked on but nobody's managed to come up with an answer, which means more time and resources are clearly needed to solve that problem.
> [{quoted}](name=SuperLuigiLXIV,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=001b000400000001,timestamp=2017-12-11T02:11:10.365+0000) > > There comes a time when this "oh fix him he's easy to fix, we'll work on the harder stuff after" gets old. > They've already done what 2-3 reworks on ryze. 2 on morde, etc... It doesn't feel like anything except bias when you only see the same 10-20 champions always being the most played season after season.
: He never commented on popularity, learn to read. He said that his playerbase has the most games on the champion. As in, the playerbase size is average, but the playerbase plays more yasuo than say a garen main plays garen. He's a high risk high reward champion and even his masters are struggling extrememly hard to make him work. Games played=/popularity
>Games played=/popularity So having a large player base, being the 4th most picked top, and the 13th most picked mid. http://na.op.gg/champion/yasuo/statistics/mid/skill Doesn't mean that he is popular? Umm what? Are you legitimately trying to tell me all of his players are one trick ponies.
: I find it surprising. it takes an extra long leap of logic to reach that conclusion. Conspiracy theory levels of mental gymnastics. It's not proven, people only question it or suggest it because they've seen or heard it suggested somewhere before - usually by malicious mis-informants who want people to hate Riot.
So that is why some champions don't get touched for multiple seasons. Volibear, Olaf, Morde, Skarner... While others get significant changes often. Yasuo, Lee Sin, Vayne...
Yasuicide (EUW)
: Dude this Yasuo **graph** isn't even from **7.22/23/24** it's data of the **full season 7**. Meta around him got horribly strong so Yasuo made it down to **43-44% winrate** in every division above bronze and in every server
That winrate of 47% is from the very last patch.
: morg spellvamp change
Its because morganna isn't one of their beloved high mobility popular champions.
: Don't use champion.gg trash site
Need an alternative that gives summoner winrate with games played.
: Frankly the Boards is one of the only places that cares about Morde. Specifically Morde. I get that you mean about off meta champs in general. But Morde is the exception in this case
I'm pretty sure in different connotations. The boards largely care about morde in lore, memes, story, art and ect... Noone except his mains really want to see him buffed to be playable, and even his mains mostly only want 5-10MS or 5-10 armor.
: Well they never said that either.
So why are they buffing him? Look at champions like Varus who have a 50% winrate at the 200+ games mark http://champion.gg/champion/Varus/ADC Why aren't we literally hot fix nerfing champs like xearth, and MF They both have 57-60% winrate at 200+ games http://champion.gg/champion/Xerath/Middle http://champion.gg/champion/MissFortune/ADC I'll give you guys that there is a small xearth nerf on the PBE but what about MF? Volibear? etc...
Barkley (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Koerty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ug3ELAoZ,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2017-12-10T23:43:30.228+0000) > I have no idea how low elo games go on but low elo games are insanely borings, whatever you are ahead or behind you just play 20 minutes while crushing/getting crushed without being able to do anything about it. Please, as gold player, tell me how to fix this. I hate this. How do I get my team to follow me to objectives. Please add me in game. I know how to push advantages, but I can't do it by myself. How do you get your team to follow you and not chase kills all over the map, or farm raptors while we could be doing baron
They do that in diamond or plat too, the only difference is that in diamond/plat the enemy dies instead of just barley getting away.
: He took it out of context the moment he "quoted" riot on buffing Yasuo for his popularity. FYI they never said anything about his popularity.
I said large playerbase, never said popularity. He does have a large playerbase.
Skorch (NA)
: While true, Yasuo's high playrate was probably a factor. However that doesnt mean that Yasuo DOESNT need buffs. So other champions need buffs as well? sure. But the claim of "Why is X getting a buff? Y needs a buff too." is just a weird claim. IF for instance, Cassio, needs a buff. Why make a post saying "FUCK YOU RIOT BUFFING YASUO UNBALANCING YOUR GAME FFS WTH." instead of... "Hey Rito Cassio needs a buff." See the issue? Spreading misinformation about "Riot is only buffing Yas becuz popularity and favoritism lul" doesnt help anyones cause.
Yea but a thread asking for Cassiopeia buffs wont get attention because there isn't a large enough playerbase... See the issue? Honestly I haven't even been seeing threads asking for yasuo buffs, and they are going through with them anyways.
: Think about this though. When Riot's saying it will feel bad because he has a high playrate and still underperforming, that means that not only will the LARGE Has up player base be affected, but also a significant portion of the community will be too. Simply because of his awful state those with a Yasuo on their team will be put as a disadvantage, and this will be happening FAR more than the other champs with low play rate.
> [{quoted}](name=Frost Fae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T20:56:51.713+0000) > > Think about this though. When Riot's saying it will feel bad because he has a high playrate and still underperforming, that means that not only will the LARGE Has up player base be affected, but also a significant portion of the community will be too. Simply because of his awful state those with a Yasuo on their team will be put as a disadvantage, and this will be happening FAR more than the other champs with low play rate. That argument really just confirms bias based balancing, maybe you should try and reword it in such a way that says "we aren't buffing him because it effects a lot of players". You pretty much just said it effects a lot of people, so why not buff him?
: Morde had 2% popularity and 51% winrate for Years before the Rework. Now we have 1%. And 48% The more you know
Sadly the boards doesn't care because they don't care about champs like Morde.
: I typically don't engage in these sorts of threads, but think this is a perfect opportunity to outline why it can be rough to attempt to engage in topics on the boards. I saw the thread crop up about Yasuo last week, and deemed it a good opportunity to engage even briefly into why we would even consider buffing him, knowing full well that he's a fairly contentious champion. A lot of players gave some really good thoughts, some were rather typical vitriol, and some were just misinformed. I personally don't have the time to address every question that came up in the thead (which feels really bad), but still thought it was valuable to provide even just a small window of insight into why we may or may not make a change to the game - in this case deciding to buff Yasuo. What's a major pain in the ass is to check the boards over the weekend and see that a thread near the top that took my replies completely out of context, spreads a false narrative, and only serves to turn more people against Riot (or the balance team in this case). I want to provide context on our work when I can, but having my words twisted into a message that's blatantly false makes me wonder sometimes if it is worth it. No we are not buffing Yasuo because he's popular/has a large player base. We are buffing him because he has the highest average games played per player out of EVERY champion in League, and even with the largest number of players who HAVE mastered him, he's struggling to win the "promised" number of games based on what you would expect from a mastery curve (this is just one of the reasons). Long story short - we're buffing him because he is NOT a balanced champion currently, and it's our job to react to champions like him accordingly. Now - other than the title of your post which is what I find to be most misleading, I can understand the sentiment from the body of your post and empathize with the feeling. If you're a Skarner main (not saying you are, but if a player is), they'd be much happier to see us working on Skarner as opposed to buffing Yasuo, but issues with champions with low play rates are (typically) more deep seated issues around core abilities, play pattern, thematic, visuals etc - all of which are likely better handled with something from a mini-update to a full blown VGU - many of which are the types of work the champion team would take on as opposed to the balance team. That's not to say we don't talk about those champions if there's quick wins we can get from the our teams perspective, but we need to make sure we're also focusing on "problems" we can get some progress on in the next patch, vs only focusing on longer term champion wins. You can absolutely disagree with our decisions to buff/nerf certain aspects of League, that's part of what I love about our playerbase because it means you fucking care. But what I'd really appreciate is not having any time we try to engage turned into a spin fest for how our words can be used against us. Sorry if this came across super agro, just something I feel passionate about since I WANT to engage more, but also want it to be valuable for both sides - not incendiary.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-12-10T23:06:26.193+0000) > > We are buffing him because he has the highest average games played per player out of EVERY champion in League, and even with the largest number of players who HAVE mastered him, he's struggling to win the "promised" number of games based on what you would expect from a mastery curve (this is just one of the reasons). Maybe it would help if you gave us some data. Things like champion.gg Still show us things like this. https://imgur.com/7rkZqzo Everything came from champion.gg Maybe you could give us what the winrate of players that master a champion should have? Without data to back up your reasoning when Riot says things like this it will always sound like you are just looking for any excuse to buff a champion. Is this data from champion.gg even correct? You could also answer things like: Has every-most players that have mastered yasuo fallen below the "promised threshold"? What is the "promised threshold" for mastering a champion? Why don't we use he same argument to buff champs like volibear? Without this type of data its pretty easy to misconstrue anything that you say as being biased in any thread that you make. Which is exactly why you get so many threads exactly like this one. It honestly sounds like you are biased, because back in S1-3 when olaf, eve, and etc.. was this popular riot just nerfed them, and let them sit at low winrate for years. Which is also why it makes you sound biased with statements like the aforementioned. Thank you very much for your time in advanced! Edit: I also edited my main post to include this information.
Glîtchy (NA)
: Excuse me while I CLAW my way to freedom from these puns
> [{quoted}](name=Glîtchy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8drpu5Oo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-10T19:30:44.003+0000) > > Excuse me while I CLAW my way to freedom from these puns That was pretty unbearable if you ask me.
: Where does that comment come from?
" Leaving him at 44-45% winrate feels quite awful for a champion that has one of the most dedicated playerbases, " https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n3yYGLHe-20-q-damage-200-range-ulti-buffed-mr?comment=000600000001000000010000 They are basically saying if he had a smaller playerbase they wouldn't buff him. Because they want a large playerbase to feel good, which is the same reason why they don't balance lee.
: Sona has fallen to 48%
QW they buffing yasuo.
Show more

GigglesO

Level 51 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion