Paroe (NA)
: Can someone explain to me, simply and in kind words, what the problem with yuumi is at its core?
The problem people have playing against her is absolutely her ability to become untargetable. When you think about it, all that it is really doing is forcing you to kill the ADC/host and keeping you from hurting the support. The issue is that she plays super safe and can get away very easily if other allies are around. I'd argue she lacks any survivability without allies and can also be one shot by basically anyone who builds damage or combo'd to death if she is hit by CC. She also can't roam effectively and unlike other enchanters needs to be attached to allies in order to heal/buff them. So basically Yuumi players who know which characters to buff and when are going to be much stronger than ones who don't. Yuumi can turn the tide of any fight, within reason, if she is played properly. I also cannot count how many times people have died in a 2v1 with me on my ADC fighting as if I'm not there and then inevitably dying because they underestimated Yuumi's utility, she is *not* a glorified item. However, if you CC the character Yuumi is attached to she is either stuck there or needs to detach to try to float away with her 330 movement speed lol. I think Yuumi loses plenty of 2v2s. She is by no means perfectly balanced but I don't think she is SUPER OP or COMPLETE GARBO. She should be balanced around the fact that she is untargetable most of the time tho, its still a very strong mechanic. I think as long as she doesn't do a lot of damage/has more reasons to detach or become vulnerable she should feel less annoying to play against.
: there are so many itterations they could try until they find something that feels right like: mark that slow when hit mark that just deals damage mark that give melee champions haste when moving toward mark that activates bop and block (passive) when ally trigger it (terrible idea which means yuumi never have to detach) bonus % damage another heal (not something she really needs) make it work like ivern's Q (unoriginal) slow that turns into a root (too strong) mark that only yuumi can proc with her autos but offer huge compensation (it overlaps with passive too much) but things i think are necessary: it has to do damage even if just a tiny bit (to let her proc spellthief and runes), it must be a stronger effect for melee champions, and must offer interaction with allies
> [{quoted}](name=FakeGravity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T01:33:09.194+0000) > > there are so many itterations they could try until they find something that feels right like: > > mark that slow when hit > mark that just deals damage > mark that give melee champions haste when moving toward > mark that activates bop and block (passive) when ally trigger it (terrible idea which means yuumi never have to detach) > bonus % damage > another heal (not something she really needs) > make it work like ivern's Q (unoriginal) > slow that turns into a root (too strong) > mark that only yuumi can proc with her autos but offer huge compensation (it overlaps with passive too much) > > but things i think are necessary: it has to do damage even if just a tiny bit (to let her proc spellthief and runes), it must be a stronger effect for melee champions, and must offer interaction with allies That's true, maybe it could be kinda like Kassadin's W which costs 1 mana, but instead it does like 10 damage. Kass's W is like that so he can stack tear, Yuumi could be the same where Q is focused on applying its special effects/marking enemies but still does minimal damage so that she can proc spellthief and such. And yes I agree a root would be too strong for her Q. It is too easy to hit for an effect like that to exist on it. I think focusing on bonus damage or healing would probably be the way to go.
5050BS (NA)
: The W change is so she cant just dodge everything if an ally is nearby. She was TOO safe. You had to kill ALL of her Allies to get to her.
> [{quoted}](name=5050BS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-12-05T22:07:57.223+0000) > > The W change is so she cant just dodge everything if an ally is nearby. She was TOO safe. You had to kill ALL of her Allies to get to her. Like I've said before, because Yuumi is designed in a way that her abilities rely on her being attached to her allies having her W function like this could seriously screw her over by stopping her from using abilities properly even after she was hit by CC. Also, the .25 "channel" is way worse than if it were a "cast" with a channel ANY CC will stop it, whereas a cast is only stopped by displacement effects and death. (Which would be much more reasonable.) The main point of my post is to offer possible ideas to make Yuumi's who only play safe *significantly* weaker than Yuumi's who take risks and play detached more often. I don't think Yuumi should be this safe champ with tons of free poke, and that's exactly why this W change isn't good, it enforces that playstyle. I also think the functionality of her Q being changed to focus more on support effects and less on damage could also help to solve the issue. Either way this W change is, in my opinion, not the solution.
: Yuumi main here as the W stands with the delay and teleport boot i simply won't get off to auto and trigger passive unless my opponents have no disruption CC, even then i would hesitate if its a champion that dishes out a lot of damage because it might not be worth it. My current plans for playing new yuumi are rushing extra mana regen early and running spellbook and starting with teleport so i can point into Q spam it for the gold then recall and tp back after getting my mana regen then permanently swap out to ignite, exhaust and heal. edit: this plan depends entirely on how the 1 second duration nerf on Q ruins Yuumi for playability or not.
> [{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-12-05T21:27:43.859+0000) > > Yuumi main here as the W stands with the delay and teleport boot i simply won't get off to auto and trigger passive unless my opponents have no disruption CC, even then i would hesitate if its a champion that dishes out a lot of damage because it might not be worth it. > > My current plans for playing new yuumi are rushing extra mana regen early and running spellbook and starting with teleport so i can point into Q spam it for the gold then recall and tp back after getting my mana regen then permanently swap out to ignite, exhaust and heal. > > edit: this plan depends entirely on how the 1 second duration nerf on Q ruins Yuumi for playability or not. I've been experimenting with new runes for Yuumi lately since Presence of Mind was changed. I've been taking Ultimate hunter and ghost poro for my secondary runes to help provide me with more utility. Ghost poro helps with vision while giving a bit of AP and ultimate hunter is probably better than presence of mind anyways because the mana regen Yuumi has with just two items is already fine and I also typically take manaflow band with Comet/Aery for my main runes. So the real difference is that my ult is off cooldown much more frequently, and is up for every fight by the late game. I think Yuumi is probably best late game anyways so that's what I typically focus on with runes. Late game power + Utility. That being said, your spellbook idea could be pretty good. Something kind of meme-y but also interesting could be like a jungle-support Yuumi who takes smite and helps get some fat ganks off while also running spellbook so she can tp to bot at any time. I don't think it would be GOOD per se, but potentially fun/effective in certain situations. Spellbook is honestly an underused rune and I think it has potential to be pretty cool! Edit, Also: Yes the TP change kinda sucks. I see how it could be very strong in high levels but that is kinda part of Yuumi's power as a champ. She follows people around, her lore is literally about her traveling around through magic portals created by book lol. Maybe there is some way they could reduce its power? Like if you TP and Yuumi attaches it adds an extra couple seconds to the TP cast time because another person is tagging along? I think that would be pretty fair, so it would basically nerf the power of TP ganks without removing her ability to TP with allies entirely.
EATARI (NA)
: Even worse would be just heading to lane with your ADC. You attach for 6 seconds, fall off, and now have to walk at only 330 units per second until you can reattach. Doesn’t sound fun.
> [{quoted}](name=EATARI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0002000200000000,timestamp=2019-12-05T20:12:49.781+0000) > > Even worse would be just heading to lane with your ADC. You attach for 6 seconds, fall off, and now have to walk at only 330 units per second until you can reattach. Doesn’t sound fun. Yeah that's exactly the issue with a timer on attach, it would be jarring and you would be frequently screwed over by it. I think there needs to be some other mechanic or reward that makes Yuumi players detach other than a forced detach after X seconds.
: i want her Q to place a mark that her attach ally can proc for the damage kinda like leonas's so we have interaction and not so much of a garen carrying the artillery cat, but also make it so melee allies does more damage than range on the mark so there be an insentive for yuumi to be on melee characters that will often end in the middle of a battle from which yuumi cant easily escape if they die
> [{quoted}](name=FakeGravity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2019-12-05T20:10:17.096+0000) > > i want her Q to place a mark that her attach ally can proc for the damage kinda like leonas's so we have interaction and not so much of a garen carrying the artillery cat, but also make it so melee allies does more damage than range on the mark so there be an insentive for yuumi to be on melee characters that will often end in the middle of a battle from which yuumi cant easily escape if they die Ohhh I like that idea. It could be interesting to see it become an ability that does no damage by itself, but has a big payoff if your allies hit the enemy, especially for melee champs. Like bonus damage AND a big fat heal/shield. OR it could be bonus damage and a slow that is stronger while attached to melee champs, this way her Q becomes a tool for chasing people down rather than a weak poke. Idk though, I'd love to try various different types of Qs with her to see what feels best.
: Q feels like too much of a hassle to cast. harder to land empowered and hits like a wet noodle tacked on with a larger mana cost for some reason.
> [{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XgPwwM85,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-05T12:17:34.551+0000) > > Q feels like too much of a hassle to cast. harder to land empowered and hits like a wet noodle tacked on with a larger mana cost for some reason. Yup, I think I would be fine with her slow being removed in favor of more power. Obviously the reason the ability has been nerfed to garbage is because the poke was too strong early and the slow was oppressive later, especially when chasing people down. The ability should just have one focus/purpose to fill.
: I think she is pretty powerful, just from what i've read. Her new max rank W gives to her parasyte-infested target 20% adaptive froce, and that is damn insane. I've been looking for an enchanter than can buff the ap from other champs, but 20%? do you know how strong some abilities scale with that? at 1k AP it stacks itself with d-cap giving about 300 bonus ap. Your APcarry can reach 1300AP before 40 minutes, and that is just fucking insane. (that requires a player that is good at the game, don't take the low elo as exaplme at all, ty :) I love that they pushed her into a scaling champion rather than an early game parasyte and is amazing. Strong, but amazing. The only thing i disagree with is the cannot stick to the target that uses tp, that was kinda inside her identity, y'a know? bringing this back would make her, probably the best scaling support in the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Delightful Mango,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XgPwwM85,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-05T14:07:05.964+0000) > > I think she is pretty powerful, just from what i've read. > Her new max rank W gives to her parasyte-infested target 20% adaptive froce, and that is damn insane. I've been looking for an enchanter than can buff the ap from other champs, but 20%? do you know how strong some abilities scale with that? at 1k AP it stacks itself with d-cap giving about 300 bonus ap. Your APcarry can reach 1300AP before 40 minutes, and that is just fucking insane. (that requires a player that is good at the game, don't take the low elo as exaplme at all, ty :) > I love that they pushed her into a scaling champion rather than an early game parasyte and is amazing. Strong, but amazing. > The only thing i disagree with is the cannot stick to the target that uses tp, that was kinda inside her identity, y'a know? bringing this back would make her, probably the best scaling support in the game. It's funny because the reason she has both flat adaptive force and % adaptive force on her W passive is because the original % adaptive force was way too strong so they split it up. They might have to nerf this again if it becomes to dominant late game.
: New Support Items are poorly implemented.
Yeah I think it would be nice if there was a CDR focused support item, I kinda miss having CDR on spellthief's items. I guess the trade-off for the item upgrading for free is also the fact that you can only earn a set amount of gold with it. Which I have noticed makes buying items harder later on. Initially getting free upgrades sounded broken as heck but it's really not all that strong. I don't know for sure really, maybe someone has done a side by side comparison of the new and old support items. But yeah, it is still preseason so they could totally change things or find better ways of implementing the items. Hopefully before season 10 lol.
: > [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:55:17.892+0000) > > I think this is the wrong way to balance Yuumi. Rather than gutting everything in her kit, I think they should give her limits on how long she can be attached to someone. That way she can't just pocket heal whoever the strongest person on her team is all game. Theres a lot of things they should consider, putting a time limit on her W is not one of them. That should be completely off the table.
> [{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-12-05T12:24:19.798+0000) > > Theres a lot of things they should consider, putting a time limit on her W is not one of them. That should be completely off the table. Yeah the more I think about a hard time limit, the more I dislike it. I don't think she would be fun to play if you were in a teamfight and then suddenly you pop off of your ally because you ran out of time and then die. Or imagine being on Nocturne's ult and then falling of in the middle of it LOL
: With the W change, separating from the host must give MUCH better rewards to be worth leaving. This change basically incentivizes Yuumis never to leave the host. I certainly dont plan to leave the host when enemies are around if this goes through.
> [{quoted}](name=Lystrates,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-05T13:24:11.354+0000) > > With the W change, separating from the host must give MUCH better rewards to be worth leaving. > > This change basically incentivizes Yuumis never to leave the host. I certainly dont plan to leave the host when enemies are around if this goes through. Yeah that's basically my issue. Not only does it make her less interesting to play, it also makes her suck to play against. That's why I made suggestions that would give her more strength while detached from allies. My main issue is the W changes, I'm really hoping they try a different approach/balance.
: Breaking it down for ya: P: The passive change was made so yuumi plays more aggressive early game, tell me 1 champion that has mana issues mid-late game (except poor baby Diana, who's getting a rework, thanks god) Q: I don't really care lol, you ain't playing her for damage or duration anyways, just for the insane utility. W: At Max Rank is insane indeed, i love it! It encourages you to sit on the best ally, not the most fed, or the tankiest, but the best player. Late game you don't wanna get off of them anyways, why is it bothering you? .25 seconds delay, so she isn't aids to play against? Thank you riot, finally listening to others rather than ADC players? Give me! Give me! 5 seconds of complete uselessness if you get cc'd, also nice, encourages smart plays rather than completely popping off and on without the ability to get punished by bad plays. E: whatever
> [{quoted}](name=Delightful Mango,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-12-05T14:25:36.490+0000) > > Breaking it down for ya: > > P: The passive change was made so yuumi plays more aggressive early game, tell me 1 champion that has mana issues mid-late game (except poor baby Diana, who's getting a rework, thanks god) > > Q: I don't really care lol, you ain't playing her for damage or duration anyways, just for the insane utility. > > W: At Max Rank is insane indeed, i love it! It encourages you to sit on the best ally, not the most fed, or the tankiest, but the best player. Late game you don't wanna get off of them anyways, why is it bothering you? > .25 seconds delay, so she isn't aids to play against? Thank you riot, finally listening to others rather than ADC players? Give me! Give me! > 5 seconds of complete uselessness if you get cc'd, also nice, encourages smart plays rather than completely popping off and on without the ability to get punished by bad plays. > > E: whatever P: Yes I agree, I literally said that in my post lol. Q: Yeah. W: It doesn't nesecarily "bother" me that Yuumi doesn't want to hop of allies late game. I'm simply offering ideas for how Yuumi could be pushed into a direction that encourages a more risk v reward type of thing. 1) so that she is vulnerable more often and 2) so that Yuumi has a generally more active playstyle that is rewarded by her kit. 5 seconds of complete uselessness after getting CC'd isn't nice lmao. If you get CC'd late game you will probably die anyways, If you somehow make it out alive then the enemy team probably didn't capitalize on the CC. Look at it this way: if Sona, Soraka, or Nami get stunned can they heal their allies after recovering? Yes. Yuumi can't now because she must be attached to heal. I see why making her W more punishable makes sense but it's not the only ability affected by this change. It's her entire kit. E: Yeah.
Cloud273 (NA)
: I think this is the wrong way to balance Yuumi. Rather than gutting everything in her kit, I think they should give her limits on how long she can be attached to someone. That way she can't just pocket heal whoever the strongest person on her team is all game.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:55:17.892+0000) > > I think this is the wrong way to balance Yuumi. Rather than gutting everything in her kit, I think they should give her limits on how long she can be attached to someone. That way she can't just pocket heal whoever the strongest person on her team is all game. I mean yeah I don't think her kit needs to be gutted. My primary issue is with the way W is being balanced. All of my feedback is just suggestions and could be modified to fit the actual needs of the game more. I am mostly just concerned with how she feels to play as and against. And yeah that's interesting you mention the attach time limit because I was thinking of that as a possibility too. It could simply be a time limit, or even something where you CAN stay on allies longer but it starts to punish you like draining your mana/weakening your abilities or something to that effect. I guess one of the other problems is that she is squishy. So we have a champ that gets killed by everything and we want to make a fair way of damaging her/killing her without it being frustrating for players who actually pick her. I think it's something that will need some experimentation and testing, which I'm sure Riot is doing behind the scenes. That's the thing I think they could potentially do a lot of stuff with Yuumi to keep her core gameplay without making her broken or boring to play. I just don't think she's quite there yet.
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gloomsnooze,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:32:31.372+0000) > > Haha yeah thats true. The idea wasn't really to focus on roaming, but more to just give her a reason to not be attached to allies so much. It doesn't have to be something she has to go around at pick up. I see your point tho lol. And yes I completely agree that the slow should just be removed, at this point it isn't doing anything for her kit. I think... if you want to push Yuumi into being off her carry more, shouldnt you make her passive more of an incentive for that? Why not make her passive a spell blade that slows by 20% for 1 second instead of a timed empowered auto attack? Spell blade is honestly an extremely under utilized way to incentivize interaction, and mostly given to already strong carries like Riven and Sylas who dont need it...
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:42:06.796+0000) > > I think... if you want to push Yuumi into being off her carry more, shouldnt you make her passive more of an incentive for that? > Why not make her passive a spell blade that slows by 20% for 1 second instead of a timed empowered auto attack? > > Spell blade is honestly an extremely under utilized way to incentivize interaction, and mostly given to already strong carries like Riven and Sylas who dont need it... That could be a pretty interesting interaction. Yuumi hits Q and then is given an incentive to make use of her passive within the window of time for the spellblade effect. Maybe that could be the compensation for removing the slow and lowering the damage of her Q again? I feel like giving her "spellblade auto" like 50 extra range would maybe help it feel better though, she only has 500 range. Compare that to a character like Sona who has 550 range and a similar focus of using abilities and then autoing. (Not exactly the same but yea)
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gloomsnooze,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-12-05T06:58:28.995+0000) > > My recommendation for Yuumi's W: Revert it back, then remove the adaptive force entirely. Then make it so that her W slowly gains stacks/power over time while she is unattached from allies. Once she attaches each stack empowers her allies next auto attack to do extra magic damage. This not only encourages playing more independently while still keeping the core Idea of her W making her allies stronger while she's attached. These stacks could even be collectible moon-moths floating around the rift as a nod to her lore. This would also encourage Yuumi players to build boots, move on their own to ward more and walk to objectives on their own rather than sitting on allies the whole time. I think frolicking around and collecting moon-moths is exactly the type of thing Yuumi would do and it fits her character perfectly. Oh god please no. This is an absolutely terrible idea that turns Yuumi into a very, very poor imitation of bard. She is _NOT_ meant to be a roaming support, and trying to turn her into an "easily distracted" minigame makes her a troll pick in every sense of the phrase. The adaptive power is very nice and helps Yuumi be a viable pick vs every other enchanter, since she doesnt bring much to the table besides an average heal, situational semi-hard CC, and making her lane a 1v2. To be perfectly honest Yuumi needs her Q changed to not slow. Its situational and usually amounts to nothing at this point since its been nerfed into the ground.
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:27:10.020+0000) > > Oh god please no. This is an absolutely terrible idea that turns Yuumi into a very, very poor imitation of bard. She is _NOT_ meant to be a roaming support, and trying to turn her into an "easily distracted" minigame makes her a troll pick in every sense of the phrase. > The adaptive power is very nice and helps Yuumi be a viable pick vs every other enchanter, since she doesnt bring much to the table besides an average heal, situational semi-hard CC, and making her lane a 1v2. > > To be perfectly honest Yuumi needs her Q changed to not slow. Its situational and usually amounts to nothing at this point since its been nerfed into the ground. Haha yeah thats true. The idea wasn't really to focus on roaming, but more to just give her a reason to not be attached to allies so much. It doesn't have to be something she has to go around at pick up. I see your point tho lol. And yes I completely agree that the slow should just be removed, at this point it isn't doing anything for her kit.
Rioter Comments
: Aphelios Kit Primer
It's funny because I kinda wanted Yuumi to be like this. Like E or R is a spellbook you can shift through, then Q to activate the spell/page she is on.(She is literally sitting on a spellbook afterall) I guess I'll play this guy though, seems pretty dope lol
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Gloomsnooze

Level 87 (NA)
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