Reav3 (NA)
: I want to take a minute to answer this from my perspective. First of all our intentions of doing less VGUs and more New Champs was actually based on caring for the playerbase as well as from player feedback we have gotten over the years as we have done New Champs and VGUs. Let me go into a bit more detail though. First when I said less VGUs I didnt mean we would stop doing them, I just meant we would slow down. Expect to still see plenty of VGUs in the future, just not as many as we have been doing last year. The reason why I feel that his is coming from a caring place is this. There are many players that share your perspective, that they want their main updated, and changed. But you have to understand there are also many other players that love their Champion, and find it very frustrating when they are updated even if many other players think the update makes them way better. We have to care about these players as well, and whenever we do VGUs we also cause a lot of disruption and frustration from players over their Champion being changed. New Champions generally don't cause this player pain. Last year we actually saw a lot higher player frustration over change, partly due to how many old Champions we were updating and changing, with many older players feeling alienated by the changes. At this point, after Morde, many of the Champions we would consider for a VGU have much higher players bases then the Champions we were doing VGUs on in the past. This isn't to say there isn't value in doing them, but if we were doing them at the rate we were doing them last year, on Champions with bigger player bases, then that is many more players that would feel frustrated or alienated by the changes, even if many other players like them. This isn't to say we want to stop doing them as we feel there is value in the game feeling modern and up to date, which means we value updating the things that are getting old and dated. The Champions on the list just aren't as dated as some of the ones we did over the last couple years, and as a result the value in updating them isn't as high, and also has a higher disruption and player pain cost since the Champions have bigger player bases.
Could the issue with the frustration of old mains be mitigated by ramping up communication between the design teams and said mains when updating their champion (Or does this already happen to some extent)? It kind of seems like the main source of frustration is from those mains (While everyone else is content to see something that's just modernized in any way)
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: AP Itemization on PBE (8.4)
Just curious, have you considered doing an AP version of Black Cleaver? It seems like it could flow naturally from some of these items becoming geared towards sustained-damage/tanky AP builds, though I could see that being overbearing/ redundant if combined with Liandry's Torment's new direction.
: One problem with the jungle creep score being 4, the smart junglers will look at their enemy jungler's CS and be able to determine which camps they've visited already. This allows them to plan traps or take camps the enemy jungler has yet to go to. It's not a strat too many people use, but it is one that can make a major difference for those who do pay attention to that stuff.
Since it's 4 for every camp, wouldn't it just tell about how many they've done? I rarely play jungle so I don't have much perspective, just was curious
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 20
Eve has a small speedboost on her E right? You could incorporate the animation into that
: Every tank is a Rift Herald now (LUL)
Looks like it could especially be fun when paired with {{item:3512}}
: Indeed, the focus on autoattacks is what gives marksmen such a high baseline amount of reliability. At the same time, though, members of other classes do tend to have a (much smaller) minimum of reliability on their own effects, whether it's through proximity-based effects, point-and-click abilities, or just their own autoattacks, so the issue with marksmen isn't so much that they're the only reliable class, imo, but that they're the only class that has so much power focused into an innately reliable effect. I think one way to preserve the machine gun aspect could be to just make whichever steroids they have much less reliable. Ashe's Q is a good example of this, where she has to land a few shots first before empowering her damage, and even something like Jinx's Q, where each of her steroids carries significant tradeoffs, could allow marksmen to remain powerful while being more interactive overall. The fact that they have so much reliability through their autoattacks, though, to me suggests that they shouldn't just be given the same kinds of skillshot nukes or effects as other classes, who get to have moderately unreliable effects precisely because they don't have anything else that's innately reliable.
The first paragraph there really gets at what I was thinking about, its hard to make marksmen as conditional as Riot likes their champions when so much of their power is in this reliable mechanic. As you talked a bit about, adding unreliability to their steroids could be a very good path to go. Making it more difficult to control when it goes off (Like a Vlad Q), or requiring some kind of build-up like Ashe Q. However things like Ashe's Q and on-hit passives such as Vayne w tend to lose counterplay as the game goes on, since they get proc'd so quickly there isn't any feasible way to play around it.
: > [{quoted}](name=GrandpaTheGreat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AV88vP1p,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-01T18:06:20.538+0000) > > The tricky thing would be that you'd still need to find ways to preserve their machine-gun aspect (A lot of sustained damage), as well as taking into account that the auto attacking has no inherent counterplay in itself. I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying its harder to do for a marksmen than something more ability focused Yeah I agree but we have champions like Jhin who are arguable nowhere close to being a machine gun but does the role decently
While Jhin doesn't have the machine gun aspect, he still has some similar issues (The Auto attacks themselves are super consistent and don't have too much in the way of counterplay aside from running from the fourth bullet)
: Would ADC benefit more from telegraphed abilities?
The tricky thing would be that you'd still need to find ways to preserve their machine-gun aspect (A lot of sustained damage), as well as taking into account that the auto attacking has no inherent counterplay in itself. I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying its harder to do for a marksmen than something more ability focused
: if adc had telegraphed abilities there is no reason to play them anymore since assassins would instantly dominate them
There are already plenty of ADCs that do get instantly dominated by decent assassins, but still manage to function well because of their other strengths. Miss Fortune, Jhin, and Kog'Maw come to mind
Lapis (OCE)
: I've seen Ezreal jungle three times today
Its actually turned into somewhat of a thing. Due to his attack speed passive being guaranteed against jungle camps (As well as being able to kite them out), he has a decent clear, and considering he can realistically obtain double buffs very quickly, he can cheese a lot of ganks early on Edit: Strangely enough, it seems to have a higher success rate than playing him as an ADC at the moment. Here's the [Jungle Statistics](https://champion.gg/champion/Ezreal/Jungle?league=) compared to [his statistics as an Adc](https://champion.gg/champion/Ezreal/ADC)
: Beekeeper Singed
Perhaps some kind of custom skin could help remedy that?
Skorch (NA)
: Honestly my problem is if they think they should win NO MATTER WHAT. Like "Im sorry I had both sums, you had none. You ganked from a well warded area that i saw you from a mile away. AND i landed my 1 CC move on you before you got close. Then kited you until you died. Why? Because i played it right, and if you got within 300 units of me i was gone." NO ONE is arguing that an Assassin should have the ABILITY to kill an ADC. Just that the notion they should be able to do it for FREE is asinine.
If your playing something such as Ashe or MF, not being able to do much to prevent an assassin from getting on you (Without team support), is actually a part of their weakness and those should be essentially free kills (Especially considering that they shouldn't be pushing solo against that assassin in the first place)
: The assassins on this board like to claim they should be able to enter a 5 man team, kill their most valuable member, and escape. They should not. They also like to think that if they are alone with an enemy squishy they should win automatically. They should not.
Considering their job is to blow up an unguarded ADC, i'd say its pretty fair that they annihilate a lone ADC (Except maybe the ADCs that have some of their power budget in escaping or dueling)
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 15
Think we might get any runes for AP-Bruiser style builds?
: How is it okay that Janna has had 80% of her kit REMOVED and is still receiving nerfs?
I guess just ignore the fact that she's consistently been one of the highest preforming supports (Oftentimes the highest preforming) for god knows how long?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 8
If you do delve into anti shield options, it might be good to make sure it doesn't run into the same balance awkwardness as {{item:3123}}
Shadòw (EUW)
: the upgrades are pretty much 1000 Gold worth of extra stats for everyone. so when everyone is full build, that means Ornns team has stats worth of 5000 Gold more than the enemy team. in actual late game situations they are noticeable.
It is nice yes, but I think the main issue is that the power is really invisible (Its spread out over 5 champions, not really multiplicative, etc). Plus consider that 1000 gold lategame is less than 10% the cost of a lot of builds
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 6
If you want players to use Ornn's upgrades later, could you actually make them mean much lategame? They're hardly noticeable lategame which is pretty underwhelming considering it was advertised as turning Ornn into a lategame monstrosity. Also did FIora really need to be rebuffed so quickly? She was meta for like at least a year, and has hardly had much time out the spotlight
Arcyyy (NA)
: Why can't we have an AP Black Cleaver for fighters?
It probably would need to be based on something like the amount of time in combat rather than instances of damage, otherwise anything with a DOT could stack it instantly (Especially the ones that tick multiple times a second such as Singed and Rumble)
GigglesO (NA)
: I'm a main... and I actually see him as pretty weak in lane phase. But only if you know how to play against him. Then there are also just alot of champs that straight out beat morde {{champion:126}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:429}} . Those are just a few of the many that make lane phase difficult.
I actually forgot to consider those ranged matches, mostly was thinking of all the melee players that get cheesed. Just out of curiosity, where would you say he shines?
GigglesO (NA)
: Isn't Morde Supposed to be a lategame monster?
Not really, his identity (And his mains' view of him) is firmly cemented as a monstrosity in the lane phase
: Lord Dominick's Regards means that there is no good way to build against ADCs.
Its pretty damn frustrating, but hey at least it's not as bad as before the tank update
Glîtchy (NA)
: Mundo's damage
From a mathematical standpoint, pretty much all his damage comes from his Q and E, the former of which is simply based on the enemy's hp and doesn't take into account his own stats (Letting it be just as effective when being built full tank), and his E actually increases with his own health (As well as giving a bunch of free AD).
Ghazter (NA)
: Wow. That was so much more helpful than the last guy (not that that's untrue or anything). So far I'm mastery 4 with Karma (Ctrl+6 is so cool tbh) and don't plan on quitting her anytime soon. I have indeed noticed that I don't have much of a problem shutting down some of this meta (often getting first kills bot just because I outrange my ADC, rip), and team fights are epic with Karma. {{champion:43}} \*shields whole team\* \*stuns that fed ADC and they die\* \*randomly Qs into it every once in a while\* \*shields cc'd teammates\* \*REDEMPTION!!\* \*ults Q just to be sure they're dead\* "Yay we won!" Yes, I like it when my ADC at least knows when to attack and when to fall back and not be dumb. I usually have a very low death rate unless we're pretty badly outmatched, but when I have to try to save my ADC from death it goes down the drain. Just played draft pick and I love being able to play support almost every time, no more surprise mid play anymore. I used to play everything but now that I've gotten better I realize how bad I was xD, support's just my style. I don't watch too many YouTubers unless I'm looking for specific play style/champion tips, which I probably should do a bit more of. I have a tough time interpreting stats though :3
I'm glad I could help :D Having a feel for where your strengths and weaknesses are (In your case, supportive play being your style) is a very valuable skill especially when others around that level might try to force themselves to understand something they aren't comfortable with. I'm not that familiar with karma, but it does seem like it might be easier to protect from melees than the other adc (Though the shield and its speed boost is still really good). The main important statistics are win-rate and play rate (And maybe the experience distribution pie chart), most the others like damage dealt and minions killed give an insight into their style or tendencies rather than true strength. Also there are many subreddits for mains of different champions, including r/karmamains if that sounds like it might help
Ghazter (NA)
: Um just a little confused about the Meta right now
In general, you can beat whatever is meta if your more experienced with your champion than people utilizing an unfamiliar meta champion. Also the meta changes very frequently, meaning that its not that worth it to decide mains based on what is meta at the moment. At the moment, the meta is mainly focused on champions who are good with duskblade (Mainly assasins) and a group of tanks that are a bit overtuned. Karma support can really shut down alot of these champions due to how good her entire kit is at protecting her back-line from these threats, so if you continued maining Karma you would be able to respond fairly well to this meta. Support can be kind of wonky since your skillful play can be lost on a terrible ADC, but so long as the ADCs are somewhat decently matched you will have chances to prove your mettle over the other support. Even if your adc isn't the best, your utility can aid other allies once the laning phase is over. Also this role is the most common selection for autofill, so occasionally you will be against someone less experienced than you. There exist alot of good resources for keeping up to date with this kind of stuff, many youtubers (Especially the high elo ones) will straight up tell you whats meta at the moment in their videos, and winrate websites such as champion.gg can give you a grasp of whats popular and succeeding (Keep in mind that win-rate isn't directly correlated to their overall strength, a lot of other factors such as play-rate and player experience can factor in).
TS Media (NA)
: I Feel Like Fighters/Skirmishers Lack A Core Item
All the different Skirmishers already have varied build paths, so I don't really see how you could get one item to work for all of them (For example Master Yi, Jax, Riven all build differently)
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 1
: Is it me or is thornmail kinda contradictionary
Yeah it is the main reason Rammus got a buff, they even said in the patch notes for 7.14 > "Defensive Ball Curl’s self-slow is proving a bit too painful for Rammus players, so we’re tuning it less aggressively. Plus, with this patch’s Thornmail update having less synergy with the Armordillo’s passive (less armor and less armor scaling on the new Thornmail), the Armordillo could use a buff anyway."
Rexxiee (NA)
: With tanks dominating in lcs, i hope this will stop the myth that tanks "got nerfed and are weak"
They were weak for a good chunk of the season, before they got buff after buff over time
Meddler (NA)
: Might have hit her too hard, nerfs did impact her a bit more than we expected. Considering giving a bit of power back in 7.16, not certain about that yet though.
She's been essentially top tier for a pretty long time, not sure she would need too much power added back
: General concensus on poppy?
Pretty weak, but hard to buff her without causing her to outclass every Warden (Or even Vanguards) in the game. Aside from the hyper-durability aspect and the aforementioned outclassing, her gameplay design is pretty healthy
: True damage would still be 100% effective despite the item's active.
Yes, but currently Cho-Gath's let scales with HP, which means that Gargoyle's actually increases his ulti's damage
: Name a champion and I'll tell you why they are unfun bullshit
{{champion:136}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:14}}
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 18
Thoughts on Singed atm? Does it look like he'll need any follow up rebalancing or power shifts(Particularly with scaling over game time)?
: Singed Q Ap ratio not correct.
Singed Poison is a dot that does damage per second, and lasts for 2 seconds after being applied(And of course being able to be refreshed). The 40% AP Ratio is its damage per second (Which is shown in the tooltip), while the 80% AP Ratio is talking about the two second damage (Which is what's shown on the patch notes). The same thing is the case with the base damage
S0und16 (NA)
: That's what I was going for. They could have fairly low cooldowns on their abilities, so they could either use all their stacks almost right away and try to delete a squishy but be useless for the rest of the teamfight, or use them sparingly and get damage on almost everyone.
You said the abilities themselves had pretty short cool downs, do you think they'd be short enough to have the same ability used twice in a single burst rotation (Just curious)?
S0und16 (NA)
: Nameless Mage Champ Concept
It would depend a lot on the rest of the kit, such as the kind of style that mage goes for and what their niche is. But on its own it does look interesting, almost kind of like an ammo system of sorts.
: Give me your best/worst pun
I'm not sure which one to pick, I've got puns of them
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 30
Is Singed's passive on the pbe intended to work with allied champions?
: its seem that u don't play AD carries. that's y u are liking this new item, please go back analyes what is: grievous wounds and cold steel.cause if that doesn't seem unhealthy and unbalance to u then as soon as the patch comes out on the live severes we should play a 1v1 game and u be the AD carrie, heres my summoner name: X zodiah X.
I never meant to say people were wrong, it was just an interesting piece of info I saw left out of a lot of the conversations. The Grievous wounds and cold steel are big factors yes, but there was already so much discussion around those I felt I could just leave it out and focus on what new stuff could be brought to the conversation. I personally am pretty neutral on this, just taking a wait and see approach to see how it turns out
Rioter Comments
: https://imgur.com/a/hODzw yaaaaas new passive
That is pretty dang spicy
: Singed [large set of changes, hold tight!] Base health increased from 542.76 to 610 Health growth increased from 82 to 90 Poison Trail (Q): AP ratio increased from 30% to 40% Damage changed from 22/34/46/58/70 to 20/30/40/50/60 Mega Adhesive (W) Mana cost lowered from 70/80/90/100/110 to 60/70/80/90/100 Cooldown changed from 14 at all ranks to 17/16/15/14/13 Slow changed from 35/45/55/65/75% to 40% at all ranks Adhesive duration lowered from 5 secs to 3 secs Fling (E) Mana cost lowered from 100/110/120/130/140 to 80/95/110/125/140 Insanity Potion (R): Mana cost lowered from 150 to 100 Stat bonus changed from 35/50/80 to 35/60/85 Singed changes are finally up The biggest change is that W now grounds, which is a VERY strong buff. His AP ratio is up on his Q but I don't know if this will really 'fix' him or gear him back towards bruiser builds. Base stat changes might mean there's an undocumented passive change, we'll see soon
While the grounding on W is pretty awesome (And an idea that's been thrown around the Singed community for a long time), the compensation nerfs on it are pretty big (75% Slow for 5 seconds is pretty juicy lategame)
: Yet another stupid idea. This time regarding Fiora balance
Maybe they could replace the Heal with an entirely new effect (Such as extra damage, maybe something to help with sticking power). They could also try going for a more invisible nerf, trimming power without having much effect on how she feels. An example of how this could be done would be nerfing her E (Maybe the attack speed slow), since its not the most noticeable part of her kit
: I agree with that. The problem is that in that case, lifesteal certainly needs to exist, or ADCs need more options to defend themselves.
I think I'd rather have the latter, due to the way the math works out it compounds their problem of having an out-of-whack power curve. Maybe more situational tools (Like an AD Zhonyah's for example) would feel nicer to play against than "Hope that your damage doesn't get outhealed"
: What do you want from ADCs?
I'd pick the self reliance, the main frustrating thing about ADCs is when the whole game revolves around them
: So tanks are suppose to lose lane for a crappy late game?
Tanks used to scale, but ever since they made Last whisperrer's upgrades have insane armor pen they've all been crammed into having a bad lategame. After they toned down the % pen tanks have a bit of a smoother power curve though its still a bit visable
: What do you feel are the worst reworks Riot has made?
{{champion:114}} : Often seen as well designed due to how flashy she is and engaging to play, she actually did fail on many fronts. Riot themselves have discussed missing the mark in regards to making her feel like the old Fiora to people who gained her before the rework (Especially appearance and personality-wise). And she has many of the same problems that they intended to fix with this in the first place. Still frustrating to play against, feast-famine when it comes to gold, and identity problems. In addition, whenever she can deliver on her identity as "The grand duelist", then she invalidates champs like {{champion:24}} and {{champion:23}} by simply being a better version of them. {{champion:57}} : E was previously a filler ability, so it makes sense they tried to do some fancy stuff with it. But it resulted in wonky power shifts as he now had an area with power he previously didn't. Combine this with a confusing to use Ulti (Duration is crap at close range, easily dodge able at long ranges), and he's in a weird spot atm (But has potential to be remedied)
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 23
Any chance the Singed changes from the 7.12 cycle (With the Fling Ratio and Ult) in addition to a passive change? While the stuff in the 7.13 cycle was kind of meh, the 7.12 cycle was a pretty big step in the right direction for the champ
: yeah, those were really nice, i like the ult change in particular just getting mana buffs isn't gonna help any of his issues in meta, since they pulled them again i'm guessing we have to wait another patch
There was a pretty big and immediate backlash against this cycle amongst the Singed mains, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were pulling 'em back temporarily to get the old changes ready. Ult change in particular seemed nice, his level 6 power spike is a bit excessive atm and the double poison trail seemed to make it more interesting beyond "I outdamage you more"
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GrandpaTheGreat

Level 30 (NA)
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