: Urgot's itemization is horrendously limited
Just special case Urgot as melee for the purpose of runes and general items like Sterak's, and then make his auto attacks conditionally considered melee or ranged based on if the target is closer or further than 125 units away (or always ranged during purge) for the purpose of melee only auto attack effects like DMP and Hydra.
: I think it's an issue of both balance and design. On one hand, you're absolutely right, marksmen currently deal far too much damage, and need to be reined in. On the other hand, marksmen do genuinely lack counterplay, and if you were to truly balance them while taking their reliability into full account, their damage output would be crap, because in many cases it would still be close to 100% reliable. If you balance marksmen around being these super-safe, super-reliable damage pumps, then the logical conclusion simply ends up being that literally any other member of any other class should be dramatically stronger than marksmen at any time when they play well. This has never yet happened in League, where marksmen have practically always had the highest DPS in the game even when they weren't nearly as strong as they are now. The thing with stuff like reliability, safety, or any other kind of consistency is that you can only have so much of it before things stop being fun. I feel a good way of visualizing this would be using a bell curve: if your champion is too unreliable, then they tend to feel bad to play because players don't feel like they're in control of their own character (this is why some players dislike Sion and say he has too much counterplay, though I personally think he has good enough base reliability, even if it's definitely on the lower end). On the flipside, if a champion is too reliable, i.e. if most of what they do succeeds regardless of how others play, then they tend to feel bad to play against, because it doesn't feel like there's much you can do against them. Ideally, what you'd be looking for is something in-between, where your champion has enough base reliability to be able to contribute at all times, but also enough interactivity that they can be outplayed by enemies in a variety of different and interesting ways. Currently, pretty much the only way to outplay a marksman in general is to kill them before they kill you, and this applies even when their damage is much lower. This isn't really very nuanced, and isn't even really a possibility for many classes, namely those that don't specialize in damage or amazing target access. While I definitely do not agree to turning autoattacks into skillshots (how does one even implement that?), I do think there are ways of making marksmen more interactive without essentially turning them into Mages or Assassins 2.0. The OP touches on this too, and I think the way to go would be to make the power of marksmen more conditional, whether it be by making them work a little harder for their steroids, giving their opponents opportunities to deny them power, or forcing a meaningful tradeoff in one kind of power in order to access another.
The most desirable compromise here would obviously be that marksman are the _most_ reliable class in terms of damage, but still unreliable. Dealing the majority of their damage through auto attacks, which are reliable, but shifting _more_ of their potential DPS into conditionally strengthening their autos through unreliable means which is innate to their kit. After all, there's a reason that the most problematic ADCs currently also happen to be the ADCs which have the highest emphasis on strictly right clicking with the smallest amount of variance in their damage based on abilities. I think Caitlyn and Miss Fortune are great examples of ADCs partially gated by abilities. Caitlyn's DPS radically drops if she's not constantly proccing headshot which is dependent on consistently landing Es and trapping people with Ws. MF's damage drops off drastically if she isn't proccing her passive (which is probably why a lot of people play her as a lehtality ult and Q bot, classic ADC MF is actually really difficultto play and takes a lot of micro) The big thing here is each individual ADC being able to output _reasonable_ reliable damage even if they fail to meet their conditions, and putting out great damage if they do meet their conditions, rather than most champions which put out almost no damage when they fail to reach their conditions. A mage can do 0 damage in an encounter if they miss literally every skillshot, an ADC's primary value to a team would be the fall back of having the highest reliable damage on a team since it's inevitable mistakes will _eventually_ be made and they curtail risk when said inevitable mistakes happen. Of course, every ADC will also have to have unique play patterns and each access their unreliable DPS in a different way, otherwise you run into ADCs being strictly better or worse versions of each other (like back when Graves and Lucian would trade places as Graves and bad!Graves or Lucian and bad!Lucian).
Arcyyy (NA)
: URGOT Nerfs on PBE, Ardent Censer remains the same.
I'm really glad you've nerfed the early game and marginally buffed the late game of an early game lane bully who'll still be fundamentally underpowered in the late game by virtue of his low range anyway Riot.
: Telling them what to pick isn't the same thing as telling them to not do what amounts to a troll pick. It's no different from saying "Don't pick Teemo ADC", or "Someone needs to bring some magic damage, or we'll lose". Just because top doesn't pick a tank is fine. Squishy tops are 100% alright. The problem is when you have a _Yasuo top, Lee jg, Zed mid, Sona support_, and you're stuck as an ADC with no peel. Meaning you cease to exist until the enemy team _puts you out of your misery_. No, seriously. Go play any ADC but Vayne, Tristana, or Xayah (the only three who actually have any kind of anti-diver qualities) without having a tank. Existence will be pain for the next 12-20 minutes. Even if you're a busted-ass champion, you'll still be effectively useless. Top being squishy: Fine. Everyone being squishy: Not fine. And since top is the primarily expected tank...
No, I absolutely refuse to cave to any implications that you must compromise your intended pick for the wishes of your teammates.
: If the game can detect ping; why not prevent high ping levels from ranked?
I am entirely for this. The majority of competitive games like Street Fighter V have speed tests for ranked, I see no reason why League, a game where you cost your teammates a win on top of yourself, shouldn't. The _only_ problem I can imagine is that the majority of "my ping!" complaints come from players who have typically normal pings and experience unprecedented spikes mid game, because people with constant bad ping likely do avoid ranked already to a degree.
: PSA: Your team comp matters in EVERY single mode
No. You lock in top, pick Jayce, 1v9 and carry harder. Also, you _cannot_ tell your teammates what to pick. You're advocating for picking half of top lane's roster to be a reportable offense.
Arcyyy (NA)
: Ohmwrecker costs 350 gold more than ardent censer
Guys I think I've figured out how to make Ohmwrecker potentially worth using. Make it a 150-200g consumable.
: Lethality ADCs are fine. I enjoy diversity, and I think the boards are hypocritical when they claim Riot kills off builds. Death's Dance is just too strong on both melees (Riven) and ranged (Draven, Xayah). Overall nerf is needed, plus it's the CDR variant to BT. Maw + Sterak's isn't an issue anymore and, with Sterak's being bonus HP, should probably stack again.
That's fair, I only brought up Maw and Sterak's as a historic case of course. Death's Dance is really strong even on melee, and probably does deserve nerfs, but I'm still weary of flatly nerfing items intended for one class primarily because of another class' use over it. Like I said above, nerfing an item meant for one class because of the way another uses it means that the class its intended for ends up hurting but the class abusing it can still comfortably slot back into its intended items.
: Finally, someone who sees the light of the truth! Keep in mind supports are broken, but this is more focused on ADCs. Just simply nerf ADC items and the few problematic champions. {{item:3006}} -5% attack speed (35% is too much for boots) {{item:1038}} -5 AD, -150 cost (More of a neutral thing, but allows for easier balancing of other items. Makes bot lane less snowbally.) {{item:3508}} AD reduced to 60, CDR changed to 20% upfront, cost reduced to 3100 (50 combine cost). (Reduces effectiveness of it being a late game item while making it viable on Lucian/Draven. Example: See Xayah's banrate at worlds.) {{item:3031}} Critical Damage modifier reduced to +35%. {{item:3087}} Passive damage reduced by 5-20. {{item:3094}} Passive can no longer co-exist with Stattik Shiv's passive. {{item:3046}} Attack speed reduced by 5%. {{item:3812}} DoT convert reduced to 20%, -5 AD. {{item:3072}} -5 AD (the fuck was this powercreep free buff) {{item:3036}} Maximum Bonus damage reduced to 15% (may need further nerfs) [Warlord's Bloodlust]: Reduced to 5-30% Lifesteal. Keep in mind, this also implies broken tank items like Thornmail/Bramble and Stoneplate are nerfed to compensate. And also Locket, Knight's Vow, Redemption, and Ardent are nerfed.
I would love to see more ranged/melee discrepancies on items personally. There was a stretch of time where the strongest ADCs were all using lethality and while that was partially because of the meta, it was also because ADCs have often abused non-marksman items which gave AD, because any item that gives AD a marksman can use even if they're intended for fighters or assassins. The same thing happened with {{item:3053}} {{item:3156}} stacking last season. {{item:3812}} in particular is an item originally intended for AD casters, that's the entire point of its drain functioning on abilities. I'd like to see the damage block passive be more potent on melee champs than it is on ranged ones because melee champs are already being inherently put into more damage and taking more damage, I think it's fair that more damage sticks on a ranged champ considering they're inherently safer and will get hit with less (if positioning correctly or playing well) to begin with. Plus, if Death's Dance gets nerfed ADCs can just use another life steal item like {{item:3072}} , but some fighters don't have that luxury. Nerfing Death's Dance just hurts the fighters that rely on it but mildly inconveniences the ADCs who can elect to use any other lifesteal item intended for the class instead.
Eedat (NA)
: > The problem with ADCs is they do too much damage full stop ***AND its impossible to punish them with 2k+ healing and shielding every fight*** ftfy
The fact that ADC and support are so intertwined that a discussion about ADC balance inherently includes them, rather than supports simply being a supportive utility champ for the whole team, is a problem in and of itself but I'd like to focus on the problems innate to marksmen rather than their interactions with the support. Supports being stat batteries and essentially the marksman's 7th item slot is a _huge_ problem, but that's more a problem with the support class that affects ADCs not a problem with ADCs. If that makes sense.
: Can Illaoi's W deal bonus damage to towers and inhibitors?
Riot is extremely inconsistent with what deals bonus damage to towers. Garen's Q and Yorick's Q have identical damage values, 30/55/80/105/130 + 40% AD, but only Garen's procs on turrets even though Yorick is the dedicated split pusher.
: Buff bruisers, leave adcs/tanks/assassins/mages where they are.
: Assassins honestly shouldn't depend on kills
There was literally nothing wrong with Rengar 100-0ing you from stealth.
: Ardent Censer is still broken.
The very concept of the support's item slots being a source of more raw passive stats for the ADC is flawed in and of itself. The entire Enchanter class is completely out of place in League. It belongs in a PvE healer/tank/DPS MMO, it has zero place in a PvP environment.
: I think Riot's testing something with the missions...
Yeah but you also have to understand that these are always in the form of 5 man premades. Of course a 5 melee team is possible when you're in a 5 man premade, the majority of successful attempts at the mission I saw (including my own) primarily involved cheesing the hell out of an enemy with a coordinated 4-5 man level 1 gank and otherwise unorthodox plays that you wouldn't have the coordination to do in soloQ. That, and teams abusing Kayle as a replacement for the ADC.
: LUL meanwhile let's these champions right? {{champion:238}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:24}} But in all seriousness if we lowered the ADC damage then they would be completely pointless to have in team comps since they are the squishiest role of all, aka get one shot by {{champion:141}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:55}}. But what I think they need to do with ADC's is make them make use of their abilities similarly like {{champion:110}} {{champion:42}} instead of brainlessly auto attacking an enemy to death.
First of all I didn't say anything or make any value judgments about any champions besides ADCs in my OP. Second Cho'Gath, Fiora and Malzahar are the only real problem champs in that list (I still can't believe Cho'Gath wasn't hotfixed the second Gargoyle Stoneplate came out). The rest besides Yas and Jax are assassins. If a team coordinates and successfully peels the assassin off they fail to kill their target, and are now vulnerable with no cooldowns up presenting the enemy team a chance to kill them.
: Halloween Skins
This year's halloween skins, the Deathsworn line, are already out. I don't blame you for not realizing this, they're so awful I'd block them out of my memory too.
: Evelyn's W is counter intuitive and unfun to wait for / play with
Evelynn is just total fucking garbage from every possible perspective. The character that sustains herself on the suffering of others' only hp recovery skill is when she's not attacking people. Stealth champion with an ability that tells you explicitly where she is. Team B is so fucking incompetent and devoid of any talent whatsoever. Just let Team A do every rework.
  Rioter Comments
: Sol's stars are shown outside the bush because they could do some damage without the player knowing. Nunu gets a passive because his ability has to charge up to do it's maximum damage and it has a slow attached so the player would know they are being affected by something. Think of sol's stars like most abilities: xerath kit, brand Q/W/R, or anything for that matter. The spells are shown when they leave bush. As such, Sol passive is treated as an ability rather than a passive.
: Attacks While in Bush
By the same token, why were Illaoi's tentacles changed to be visible in brush when every other champion spawned unit in the game is invisible in the brush? Malz and Yorick minions, Zyra plants, Heimer turrets, Shaco boxes, Azir soldiers even, all invisible in brush, but arbitrarily Illaoi tentacles aren't. It feels like Riot just has such lacking consistency regarding so many elements.
: What do you hope to achieve with Vayne changes?
>What do you hope to achieve with the Vayne changes Nerfing her without having to explicitly calling it a nerf so Vayne players don't get as mad.
: Honestly, giving void staff 40% magic pen just gives mages less build options....
"oh no mages have fewer options!"...because their items are getting continuously buffed and making suboptimal choices even more obviously unnecessary.
GigglesO (NA)
: The real solution to counter play is melee tanks that are low damage.
If tanks don't do at least some damage you can simply ignore them.
: Mystical Facts About Illaoi's Test of Spirit
Pro-tip if you're playing as Illaoi: bandit procs on spirits. Wait at least 5 seconds to receive both instances of +10 bonus gold while attacking it if you can afford to. Spirits also grant an extra 25g when killed. Each E is potentially free 45 gold.
: Still no PBE store
Brazilians ruin everything.
Ahris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=GrievousFetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bo2Oqxfh,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T14:54:52.687+0000) > > Except for the part where the removal of MR runes is actually a BUFF even counting the complimentary removal of Mpen runes. So did every champ in game lose 8 MR which is the basic amount of magic pen mages utilize? Or even 20 for champs like Brand and Katarina? In the end it is not a buff for the amount of Magic Pen lost. Also the fact that AD champs are getting AD and armor while APs only get HP really reflects favortism.
>so did every champ in the game lose 8 MR every champ in the game lost TWELVE MR. Meanwhile mages only lost 7.8 Mpen. It's objectively a net buff.
: > [{quoted}](name=GrievousFetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o5pQumW2,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-10-16T15:11:52.120+0000) > > If you make Zhonya's a big AP item that means you're going to force AP champs to buy it as a stat stick even if they don't want the active. > > Just give us DFG back Riot fuck. You don't remember why Rito removed it in the first place? it was pretty much because every Mage under the sun could buy it, and become an Assassin. Plus you would have the same problem. It would become a must buy just because it was stat stick. This is pretty much why Riot has tried sticking to a single item for being the Big ticket AP item. (Death Cap) While trying to normalize the AP values of the other items. The problem then became items with too much utility getting their AP nerfed. (Crystal scepter, Zonyas)
Yeah I remember DFG. I remember there was nothing wrong and it should have never been removed.
: because in a meta like we have now you Need something to deal with late game tanks
Rioter Comments
Cloud273 (NA)
: Can we make Zhonyas a "big AP" item again?
If you make Zhonya's a big AP item that means you're going to force AP champs to buy it as a stat stick even if they don't want the active. Just give us DFG back Riot fuck.
Owntrolf (NA)
: Yasuo windwall
Here's a better idea: [REMOVED]: Yasuo
: Can Ornn apply a double Ornn hit effect when he attacks a brittle target like Shyvana Q?
No because brittle is a debuff which is consumed. So it wouldn't work just like how Shyvana's Q can't double proc Triforce.
Ahris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=GrievousFetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bo2Oqxfh,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T14:30:01.952+0000) > > Lack of magic pen is compensated for by the lack of MR runes though. > > Plus you got guise and sorc shoes buffed to 18 pen and Void staff is 40 goddamn percent now. Mages are stronger than they were before offensively but people just keep whining about "muh Mpen reds". You wont be building void staff till 25 min into the game. You also wont build sorc until after you finish your core item. In the end, Mages early was nerfed. Sure there are extra armor to all champs but that is negated by everyone getting extra ad. In the end there is nothing new. Also haunting did not get any magic pen. So in the end Riot did not even compensate for magic pen lost. Pen is only going to be most useful early, and that usefulness was nerfed. Is mages late going to be as strong as adc now? Nope.
>mages early was nerfed Except for the part where the removal of MR runes is actually a BUFF even counting the complimentary removal of Mpen runes.
: "The stats gained from a level is often worth more than gold from a kill".
This is one of the biggest problems with the game. Kills are too inconsequential. No wonder the game is getting more and more passive and strictly farm oriented. Losing XP and gold upon death when?
: well you if you miss your charm or dont have it you need that movement speed to bend your q back for the true damage. and you might say she should be able to land her charm or that her ult can help do that but you can't adjust abilities based on the potential of others
If you miss your charm you don't get to land the second half of your Q because you played incorrectly.
Bârd (NA)
: Ahri's speed boost should be on Foxfire
>Ahri shouldn't have a speed boost Fixed that for you friend :^)
314dokg (NA)
: PATCH 7.20 Ornn's R feedback
This is like eating shit your whole life and then somebody gives you chocolate instead and you're upset at them because you've gotten used to eating shit.
: @Meddler Swain main looking for comfort
Swain only needs a VU but Riot stopped doing VU's without gameplay updates because people "weren't appreciating them". Basically Riot's going to delete your champ from the game because they're too cheap to give him a mere visual update.
: Riot: "We're removing potential 30 lethality from runes and masteries combined, but here have 2 extra lethality on 3 items as compensation!" Scrublords: "gg wtf rito on drugs buffing lethality wtf wtf adc in 2k17 lul tanks get 1 shot wtf nice balance team gg quit RIP league of legends rengar talon ban zed plz aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
>30 potential Lethality Riot is only compensating for standard rune pages. They're not going to give you a fuck huge amount of F R E E Lethality because you ran a cheesy full Lethality rune page.
Ahris (NA)
: The fact that Mages arent getting any AP, CDR, and magic pen lost, with like barely any decrease in mr for ALL champs. Also the nerf to AP mages through the mastery nerfs. No more double edged sword, no more damage boost that mages used to burst(more conditions for damage) Even Ahri's w r burst with thunderlords now means the nerf waa not even needed in the first place. Riot is a horrible group of people.
Lack of magic pen is compensated for by the lack of MR runes though. Plus you got guise and sorc shoes buffed to 18 pen and Void staff is 40 goddamn percent now. Mages are stronger than they were before offensively but people just keep whining about "muh Mpen reds".
: Riot says LeBlanc is "unhealthy", Here's how to fix it.
Or you could just yknow, revert the rework.
Ririio (NA)
: Can't play Yas with statik?
I'd report you just for playing Yasuo. Yasuo pickers aren't actually people.
: For instance, I'm glad Evelynn lost her stealth at pre-6
Yeah, I really hate it when an Evelynn on my team is cocky enough to think she can gank after 6. Evelynn can't gank at all, because she's fucking horrible.
: The more I dwell on it, the more I hate Sona's current state. I want a rework.
Reminder that Sona is just Invoker if he only had his basics and didn't have his ultimate.
: @Riot Why is this allowed? (twitch vs eve stealth)
Because they're incompetent. Like...what else am I supposed to say dude? Have you seen the state of the game? The devs just aren't really very good at their jobs.
: kog maw IS ballstats. Tristana, Twitch, Vayne, Caitlyn, Kog are all ball stats and should never be relevant if we want a healthy bot lane.
The worst part about the ADCs that are ballstats is that they end up with infinitely more stats than melee champs. ADCs have more MS than melees thanks to zeal items, ADCs have almost the same base stats, supports are literally just a 7th item slot for the ADC for _more_ stats. And all of this is without turn rates too, so it's even more unfair for melee. The simple property of being ranged is such an overwhelmingly _massive_ advantage in League that it needs more severe downsides. Not fucking "oh I have 10-15 less AD and 200 less health at level 18 boo hoo" pittances. Look at DotA, Chaos Knight has like literally _double_ Sniper's attack damage. I want melee champs to start the game with 95 AD level 1 and ADCs can have 270 base MS. and the game would STILL be radically in favour of ranged champs despite this.
: anyone else find kog maw & ardent lulu promblematic?
Honestly? The entire enchanter class and this continued Ardent fiasco has just been so fucking embarrassing. I don't think anything has exposed Riot's balance team as so out of touch and hilariously but worryingly incompetent before or at least for such a long time. The thing continues to get love taps to it yet remains a dominant force, when it should have rightfully been hotfixed (with a removal).
: Possible solutions to towers being useless
Watch this, I'm gonna fix the tower problem Towers always target the enemy champion beneath them with the lowest effective physical health once they've switched aggro from minions to champions.
Yenn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mysticman89,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1BFfLfRu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-16T00:21:09.221+0000) > > If they can maintain their rating, that seems like they're where they belong, and would just be unfair to the lower skill players who can't handle their prowess on their one-trick. The problem is that skill is significantly less relevant in the current season, because games snowball so hard and end so early. This player is an example of that. Most top players rarely see Quinn, so she can often cheese them and snowball without playing well, or her feeding doesn't matter because she's playing a lane with low impact over the game. In this game, I was 10-3-5 as Ziggs, but both Quinn and our ADC were both playing extremely badly (i.e. Draven + Janna went 0-5 to Soraka + Ashe pre-6). I could have carried if only one was feeding, but not both.
>most top players rarely see Quinn What the fuck am I reading
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