D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: which "high elo streamer" is complaining? you can give him +12 stacks on large monsters he's still nasus, countered by kiting terrible in high mmr put him in the jungle right now against kindred + ranged midlaners and he won't do anything
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1i83Ubbq,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-12T11:08:45.164+0000) > > which "high elo streamer" is complaining? > > you can give him +12 stacks on large monsters he's still nasus, countered by kiting terrible in high mmr > > put him in the jungle right now against kindred + ranged midlaners and he won't do anything Dom did a video, I watched TF blade and SRO complain about it yesterday a few times live on stream yesterday too. And it’s bit about that, he gets his mid game so fast in the jungle and rampages through people. I agree overall that he still has his problems but that’s never stopped Riot from nerfing shit before. Nevertheless, when Nasus is getting almost 300 stacks at 10-12 minutes, that’s kind of a problem. And again, you can take different paths to avoid being shut down hard in the jungle as him.
: The idea of the buff was to be able to make lane Nasus be able to not be completely shut out of the game entirely if he falls behind and for him to be able to scale with how fast paced the games are nowadays. He isn't able to farm? Well not much he can do except try to farm under tower the best he can and try to make sure he gets the +12 stacks from cannons. If his the rest of his team isn't holding whatsoever for him to be able to catch up and scale, well then chances are his team isn't going to win the match anyway. Not much you can really do there with almost any champ if you fall behind. But, if you go pretty even and didn't fall behind too hard the chances are you can make a pretty decent comeback especially if your team makes it to late game when there's a cannon minion every wave. The whole Nasus being able to jungle again for the first time since season 4 is just something that indirectly happens to start working with this specific buff. Dark Harvest gets changed and suddenly you see Karthus jungle being viable. Did Riot plan that? Proooobably not. But hey Karthus players were probably happy to be able to try out a cool new way to play him.
> [{quoted}](name=Talon Gerrard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1i83Ubbq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-12T06:52:35.953+0000) > > The idea of the buff was to be able to make lane Nasus be able to not be completely shut out of the game entirely if he falls behind and for him to be able to scale with how fast paced the games are nowadays. He isn't able to farm? Well not much he can do except try to farm under tower the best he can and try to make sure he gets the +12 stacks from cannons. If his the rest of his team isn't holding whatsoever for him to be able to catch up and scale, well then chances are his team isn't going to win the match anyway. Not much you can really do there with almost any champ if you fall behind. But, if you go pretty even and didn't fall behind too hard the chances are you can make a pretty decent comeback especially if your team makes it to late game when there's a cannon minion every wave. The whole Nasus being able to jungle again for the first time since season 4 is just something that indirectly happens to start working with this specific buff. Dark Harvest gets changed and suddenly you see Karthus jungle being viable. Did Riot plan that? Proooobably not. But hey Karthus players were probably happy to be able to try out a cool new way to play him. Nasus was fine before this change. Nasus wins most matchups post 6 once he gets sheen regardless of stacks, so that’s not really a problem either. His biggest issue is that he’s easy to camp and dive early on and this buff doesn’t change that. I don’t care if Nasus jungle is good either but if it comes at the expense of Nasus top, then I absolutely care. And historically, Riot doesn’t revert buffs either - they do random shit to “enhance strengths but make weaknesses more noticeable.” In other words, they fuck the champion all up.
  Rioter Comments
JulianMX (EUW)
: How is Vayne and Nasus BUFF even a thing to THINK about?
I agree that the nasus buffs shouldn’t have gone through but you are vastly overstating his stack rate currently. He’s not doubling his stacks, he’s probably getting an extra 120 stacks now compared to what he used to get. I still think this is a problem and only makes him more stupid to fight 1v1, but let’s be clear about what is actually happening. This also doesn’t help his weaknesses at all.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Jorencice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PaacRGjN,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-12-17T23:27:30.870+0000) > > You wernt wrong though. The only chinese influence you have is through this game. And in this game the overwhelming majority are toxic. > > Just because a bunch that you dont even play with arent toxic doesnt make your views any less false. > > Example. Ive gotten food poisoning 4 times from the same McDonalds (i dont learn easily) so if i say McDonald's had lack luster kitchen safety it doesnt make me wrong if someone points out a McDonald's that has never had an incident. It actually means both views are correct at the same time. > > Life is VERY RARELY black and white. But you are wrong. You got sick from one McDonald’s and are applying your experience to all of them. That’s a gross overgeneralization and lazy thinking to apply one experience to a fits all mentality. Of course, you wouldn’t be mistaken to avoid McDonalds, but obviously people are much more complicated. And you’re right, things aren’t black and white. There’s always shades of gray. However, what you’re saying isn’t even something that fits into that spectrum because it’s so out of bounds to begin with.
: Opph they got to you hatedaddy... did the mods threaten to perma ban you?
> [{quoted}](name=Jorencice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PaacRGjN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-17T22:55:26.663+0000) > > Opph they got to you hatedaddy... did the mods threaten to perma ban you? Not at all. I reviewed what I wrote, compared it to what some people were saying and I realized I came off incredibly bigoted. There’s no shame in admitting you’re wrong.
: poor daddy of hate
> [{quoted}](name=Sèx Crazed Eve,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PaacRGjN,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-17T22:13:01.788+0000) > > poor daddy of hate Not at all - I am not a victim.
Zéychin (NA)
: I'm not aware of the comments you made, but good for you for being mature in your self-reflection and apologizing for your comments.
> [{quoted}](name=Zéychin,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PaacRGjN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-17T22:12:29.349+0000) > > I'm not aware of the comments you made, but good for you for being mature in your self-reflection and apologizing for your comments. It’s a locked thread and I’m debating on whether I should delete it or not at this point. No reason to keep it up for people to see. Some may see that as trying to “escape what I did,” but I think it being available to be seen probably only encourages others to say stupid things.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Original content right here folks. Now if only someone could post a topic about Dark Harvest we'd be all set.
> [{quoted}](name=OneMustFall,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NJkQFdN7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-30T12:55:03.560+0000) > > Original content right here folks. Now if only someone could post a topic about Dark Harvest we'd be all set. I mean, with that logic none of us should post. I’m sure I am not the only one to dispute “the damage meta” as a misnomer given how damage is balanced. I suppose I should’ve found a topic lacking research, discussed related research, broke it down in APA format and then provided my citations. My bad Professor, please forgive my lack of scientific writing and my lack of empirically supported theories to support my hypothesis. I’ll do better next time.
AR URF (NA)
: I keep seeing people play damage champions as support {{champion:161}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:143}}. It's like actual supports like {{champion:40}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:267}} have no place in this game anymore.
> [{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NJkQFdN7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-30T13:20:24.495+0000) > > I keep seeing people play damage champions as support > > {{champion:161}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:143}}. It's like actual supports like {{champion:40}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:267}} have no place in this game anymore. Of course because they are just as good as locking down entire teams as supports are. Healing, shielding and auras only matter if they can contribute to making someone else’s damage unbearable to deal with. If, as a utility based champion, your traits do not enhance these values then you are completely worthless. Remember, the last time most of these champions were good is when their core item acted as an insane power spike of damage in an ally. It is important to note: because of this concept, uniqueness is loss across the board. Whatever can build or enhance damage the cheapest, fastest and most effective way will be what is good.
Rioter Comments
: Your post is good, but that doesn't mean win rate's some faulty stat. Win rate is never good *alone.* You supplement it with the other details before creating a final conclusion. For example: I wouldn't buff Akali because her curve suggests she's just super hard to master for most players, nearing Azir/Ryze levels (not there, but she's the closest thing outside of them themselves). Now, when I make threads defending her and bringing up her win rate, *I never say she isn't good. I do say that low elo players are basically asking for Ryze/Azir nerfs, and would be better off banning other champions or complaining about other champions.* Another example: Kat mains are bugged out by Kat, but should we *buff Kat?* Her general win rate is 55%, but her pick rate's low. Just means that her mains are doing aight on the champ. What's the big deal there? If we buff Kat at this point, she'd just become overbearing. I used to be that type of guy that would misread stats because he was salty that his main champ (Sona) wasn't interesting, cool, and all that jazz. After improving my play and looking at the game differently, I made the conscious effort to be more careful about how I look at and utilize champion statistics when making a claim, but that's impossible to do when people are *overly skeptical* of win rates. They're still very important for the discussion at large because it helps separate how we feel from what's actually happening.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ukWynFGA,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-11-15T19:08:04.828+0000) > > Your post is good, but that doesn't mean win rate's some faulty stat. Win rate is never good *alone.* You supplement it with the other details before creating a final conclusion. > > For example: I wouldn't buff Akali because her curve suggests she's just super hard to master for most players, nearing Azir/Ryze levels (not there, but she's the closest thing outside of them themselves). Now, when I make threads defending her and bringing up her win rate, *I never say she isn't good. I do say that low elo players are basically asking for Ryze/Azir nerfs, and would be better off banning other champions or complaining about other champions.* > > Another example: Kat mains are bugged out by Kat, but should we *buff Kat?* Her general win rate is 55%, but her pick rate's low. Just means that her mains are doing aight on the champ. What's the big deal there? If we buff Kat at this point, she'd just become overbearing. > > I used to be that type of guy that would misread stats because he was salty that his main champ (Sona) wasn't interesting, cool, and all that jazz. After improving my play and looking at the game differently, I made the conscious effort to be more careful about how I look at and utilize champion statistics when making a claim, but that's impossible to do when people are *overly skeptical* of win rates. They're still very important for the discussion at large because it helps separate how we feel from what's actually happening. As I said, it gives you an intuitive clue into a champions level of balance. We all agree that harder to play champions will tend to have lower win rates whereas easier champions will tend to have higher win rates. But this isn’t absolute either. There’s been times where Nasus (traditionally considered an easy to play champion) has had 53% winrates but wasn’t very good and riven (traditionally considered a hard to play champion) has had a 45% winrate and is considered overpowered. This just solidifies my point (and builds off of what you are saying): there are constantly going to be several explanations for why a construct exists so assuming only one explanation alone suffices is almost always an incorrect, and quite frankly, an unintelligent approach.
: IMO banrate at a high elo is a better predictor of a champ being overpowered than win rate or pick rate. I think pick rate just tells you who's meta and win rate is a better stat for telling people how good a champion is relative to the meta. Ban rate however tells you that people don't want to play against a certain champion. My best guess is that overpowered champs in general either get to the point where they can hard carry a game easier than underpowered champs or they steamroll you harder than the other guy if they do get into that state. It's these two things when put together tell you how hard it is to do anything about a champ being picked and how frustrating it is to play against. The worst champs get to their carry conditions easy and have a large impact when they do start carrying.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ukWynFGA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-15T17:33:56.268+0000) > > IMO banrate at a high elo is a better predictor of a champ being overpowered than win rate or pick rate. I think pick rate just tells you who's meta and win rate is a better stat for telling people how good a champion is relative to the meta. Ban rate however tells you that people don't want to play against a certain champion. > > My best guess is that overpowered champs in general either get to the point where they can hard carry a game easier than underpowered champs or they steamroll you harder than the other guy if they do get into that state. It's these two things when put together tell you how hard it is to do anything about a champ being picked and how frustrating it is to play against. The worst champs get to their carry conditions easy and have a large impact when they do start carrying. I caution against banrate simply because someone may ban a champion that is strong against their Pool (I ban pantheon and Darius and neither are really “overpowered”). It is a data point and it certainly measures what people do not want to play against, but it also can be for not allowing someone to play something on your team and it’s hard to distinguish that difference. Nevertheless, it’s still a pretty useful point. You’re going to find that no point in isolation is sufficient for telling us anything barring a major outlier (damn near 70% winrate Skarner for example).
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: remember when they were balanced while having 49% win rate {{champion:13}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:39}} and before someone tells me "Azir was only broken in pro" FUCK NO Azir was broken period, it's just that most players suck on Azir because he's easily in the top3 hardest champion to play it did not make him balanced, and his kit shouldn't be allowed to be viable
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ukWynFGA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-15T16:49:12.600+0000) > > remember when they were balanced while having 49% win rate > {{champion:13}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:266}} > > and before someone tells me "Azir was only broken in pro" FUCK NO > Azir was broken period, it's just that most players suck on Azir because he's easily in the top3 hardest champion to play > it did not make him balanced, and his kit shouldn't be allowed to be viable Exactly, there are tons of examples where champions had 46-47% winrates but were still incredibly too strong. There are a lot of things that can explain a high pickrate and low winrate. And truthfully, of the two data points (winrate and pickrate) in isolation, i actually think pickrate is a far more telling stat (remember season 4 or 5 Lee with 20% pickrate; 47% winrate).
Rioter Comments
SanKakU (NA)
: Not IME. It's better for the support to switch lanes or even do a full lane swap. Sometimes the middle and top agree to do it, sometimes not. Either way, it's generally not worth the jungler's time to babysit an entire lane when he's supposed to be farming the jungle and popping in and out of lanes on a regular basis.
> [{quoted}](name=SanKakU,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tfIsVRdI,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-11-14T22:39:09.721+0000) > > Not IME. It's better for the support to switch lanes or even do a full lane swap. Sometimes the middle and top agree to do it, sometimes not. Either way, it's generally not worth the jungler's time to babysit an entire lane when he's supposed to be farming the jungle and popping in and out of lanes on a regular basis. Generally it’s best to lane swap but if the enemy matches the swap then you’re in the same situation, just a different lane. While you won’t lose an inhib at 15 minutes this way, you will still lose towers. And at this point, they’ll probably commit to diving the starved laner just to deny EXP and take whatever tower he’s left defending. Either way, they will eventually need help.
Dr Dog (NA)
: if you are hard losing lane
Yes but at a certain point you DO HAVE to do something to help that losing lane or you’re going to be missing your inhib by 15-20 minutes, especially in top lane. I’ve no problem with the logic of ganking lanes that are ahead or even but do not use this as an excuse to ignore a hard losing lane to the point where your inhibitor is gone because that is equally the junglers fault as it is the laners, especially if the laner decides to stop dying and wait for help.
Rioter Comments
: GD roll call, how many are still active?
I’m technically still around
: {{item:3194}} Oh look, now most of those do no damage.
> [{quoted}](name=SithesisLord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y5YOPFAp,comment-id=00160001,timestamp=2018-11-08T21:19:15.238+0000) > > {{item:3194}} Oh look, now most of those do no damage. Cool, so I’ve built to survive lane while the mage, who unquestionably scales better, gets a free lane. I’ve adjusted my build only to be outscaled and not feed and on top of that, now their ADC is going to chew through me like it’s nothing.
: Get bruisers out of mid
Yeah {{champion:69}} because{{champion:85}} mages{{champion:127}} have {{champion:90}} never {{champion:13}} shoved {{champion:50}} bruisers {{champion:112}} out{{champion:8}} before
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: I cant speak for gragas but cho is surely neither. He has too much cc for a bruiser. On the other hand he has too much dmg for a tank. Cho is an abomination (ha) when it comes down on his role. Vlad is a battle mage (which is the closest role an ap bruiser will even be). And no. The other ap champs (excluding tanks) that have sustain are swain, cass, morgana and ahri (in all of them its extremely situational). Lissandra has too but its tied to her ulti. Does it exist? Yes. Is it correct to say ap tend to have innate sustain? No. > most AP bruiser champions are likely to take Grasp of the Undying. Rumble goes comet. Vlad doesnt touch resolve. Swain might go resolve. Gragas goes domination. Diana goes either sorcery or domination. Cho (if you count him as an ap bruiser/battlemage) does go for grasp, but he does so to increase his max hp. Source opgg.
> [{quoted}](name=VanaQuish,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xmTcAE1g,comment-id=000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-06T13:29:10.125+0000) > > I cant speak for gragas but cho is surely neither. He has too much cc for a bruiser. On the other hand he has too much dmg for a tank. Cho is an abomination (ha) when it comes down on his role. Vlad is a battle mage (which is the closest role an ap bruiser will even be). And no. The other ap champs (excluding tanks) that have sustain are swain, cass, morgana and ahri (in all of them its extremely situational). Lissandra has too but its tied to her ulti. Does it exist? Yes. Is it correct to say ap tend to have innate sustain? No. > > Rumble goes comet. > Vlad doesnt touch resolve. > Swain might go resolve. > Gragas goes domination. > Diana goes either sorcery or domination. > Cho (if you count him as an ap bruiser/battlemage) does go for grasp, but he does so to increase his max hp. > > Source opgg. Vlad has sustain Swain has sustain Gragas has sustain Cho has sustain Diana and Rumble hace shields to reduce incoming damage; it isn’t a form of sustain but it does help keep them in lane. I am not talking about all AP; it is absolutely fair to say most AP do not innately sustain. However, AP bruisers can totally take grasp (Gragas mid goes domination/top goes grasp). I don’t think you can make a distinction of Cho as a tank or bruiser. He’s a problem nobody talks about: Riot constantly blurring the line between bruiser and tank (see Poppy): champs with insane durability mechanics but absurd damage to boot.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=ez mental boom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xmTcAE1g,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-05T23:26:49.787+0000) > > Not reading your essay lmao you're not worth my time > > I've been playing primarily Ekko this season. This is an RGM/ARAM/norms account that got Kha out of a box > > (edit) ah, nevermind. This is a thread by none other than the self-proclaimed "master baiter" himself, HD But I’m not baiting, im being serious. This was hardly an “essay”
: Most of the AP bruisers can't even build the good "AP bruiser" items. You're not going to see {{champion:68}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:8}} build {{item:3027}} {{item:3001}} We also don't have an AP Black Cleaver, so we can't deal with resistances that easily unless we're going full AP, in which case, we'll just get {{item:3135}} , which isn't a bruiser build. I don't see {{champion:122}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:24}} ect. build Last Whisper items. {{item:3151}} is also really weak against tanks that stack magic resist unless you build lots of magic pen (oh hi {{item:3135}} ) All we need is an AP Black Cleaver, then we can build tank after one or two items like most bruisers.
> [{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xmTcAE1g,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-11-05T20:52:03.515+0000) > > Most of the AP bruisers can't even build the good "AP bruiser" items. You're not going to see {{champion:68}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:8}} build {{item:3027}} {{item:3001}} > > We also don't have an AP Black Cleaver, so we can't deal with resistances that easily unless we're going full AP, in which case, we'll just get {{item:3135}} , which isn't a bruiser build. I don't see {{champion:122}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:24}} ect. build Last Whisper items. > > {{item:3151}} is also really weak against tanks that stack magic resist unless you build lots of magic pen (oh hi {{item:3135}} ) > > All we need is an AP Black Cleaver, then we can build tank after one or two items like most bruisers. I don’t know how I feel about an AP black cleaver. I feel like the nature of AP would lend it to being heavily abused my mages, so there would need to be checks on it that would discourage mages from building it if it existed. Also, magic resist values do not tend to get as high as armor values on champions, (champions typically build more armor than MR), so I’m not sure one is really needed. AP bruisers will have pretty decent utility too, so in reality we need to ask if AP bruisers should really have %MR shred available to them when they’re already incredibly disruptive. The idea of Rumble or Vlad with an AP BC terrifies me.
: But HateDaddy, as you mentioned AD bruisers get {{item:3748}} which gives them AD, HP, _and_ waveclear that scales off of HP. This bonus wave clear is based on autos so it doesn't use mana. The closest thing that AP champs have is current Liandries. It helps waveclear a little, but it costs mana and is slower than autoing depending on how well the AP champ can spam spells. Now add to that there's no TF for AD champs... nothing with AP, the sheen effect, and HP. LB doesn't make you tanking and frozen fist doesn't give you any AP. I think you are very much correct in that there are plenty of items to support AP bruisers. However I think the issue might be that there is no "it" item. There's no {{item:3077}}+{{item:3136}} or {{item:3057}}+{{item:3136}} for them to build.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xmTcAE1g,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-11-05T20:28:54.110+0000) > > But HateDaddy, as you mentioned AD bruisers get {{item:3748}} which gives them AD, HP, _and_ waveclear that scales off of HP. This bonus wave clear is based on autos so it doesn't use mana. The closest thing that AP champs have is current Liandries. It helps waveclear a little, but it costs mana and is slower than autoing depending on how well the AP champ can spam spells. Now add to that there's no TF for AD champs... nothing with AP, the sheen effect, and HP. LB doesn't make you tanking and frozen fist doesn't give you any AP. > > I think you are very much correct in that there are plenty of items to support AP bruisers. However I think the issue might be that there is no "it" item. There's no {{item:3077}}+{{item:3136}} or {{item:3057}}+{{item:3136}} for them to build. That exists mainly because many mages and even AP bruisers do not rely on auto attacking as much. Let’s not pretend Trinity is giving as much HP as the Jaurims fist items. Also, AP champs will almost always have better and safer waveclear than AD bruisers.
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: > Most AP champions tend to have more utility (or innate sustain) Ap and sustain. Choose one.
> [{quoted}](name=VanaQuish,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xmTcAE1g,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2018-11-05T19:51:42.950+0000) > > Ap and sustain. Choose one. Plenty of AP bruisers, the champions I am speaking of directly, have forms of innate sustain. See Gragas, Cho’Gath (an AP bruiser or tank), Vlad (a mage but honestly he has a bruiser playstyle in teamfights), and a few other mages. You’re right, sustain isn’t a prominent feature of APs typically but it does exist. Not to mention, most AP bruiser champions are likely to take Grasp of the Undying.
: Because AD has far more functions than AP AD scales autos AD scales abilities AD can crit AD can prefer attack speed AD can prefer AD AP scales abilities and items AP can prefer AP AP can prefer............. other
> [{quoted}](name=ez mental boom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xmTcAE1g,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-11-05T22:11:08.672+0000) > > Because AD has far more functions than AP > > > AD scales autos > AD scales abilities > AD can crit > AD can prefer attack speed > AD can prefer AD > > AP scales abilities and items > AP can prefer AP > AP can prefer............. other You are so biased it hurts. You intentionally framed your argument in a way that deceptively overrates AD. In other words, AD scales only damage (AP can also scale with everything you mentioned except crit). Let’s rephrase this properly without ignoring functions of AP and AD: AD scales damage AD scales lifestel AD, in some cases, can scale individual shields Now: AP scales damage AP Scales shields - depending on the champion, these shields can be used on oneself or allies. AP scales heals - depending on the champion, these heals can be used on oneself or an ally. AP, in some cases, can scale resistances/%damage reduction. In other words, AD is used for individual gains while AP can be used for both individual and collective gains. The natures of the stats lend themselves toward this. It is not a question of whether one is stronger than the other because they do entirely different things. Comparing them is misleading and frankly, foolish.
Ralanr (NA)
: _Saying an AP bruiser can build a tank item to augment their damage_ Most AP bruisers I see won’t ever consider building an item that doesn’t offer even 1 AP. I think this is because unlike AD bruisers, AP can only be gained through items while AD can be gained through leveling (though how inefficient this is depends on the champions scaling). Not that I disagree with you.
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xmTcAE1g,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-05T16:23:56.842+0000) > > _Saying an AP bruiser can build a tank item to augment their damage_ > > Most AP bruisers I see won’t ever consider building an item that doesn’t offer even 1 AP. I think this is because unlike AD bruisers, AP can only be gained through items while AD can be gained through leveling (though how inefficient this is depends on the champions scaling). > > Not that I disagree with you. AD bruisers can build IBG, which is what I meant between comparisons but I didn’t specify that. Bruisers AD does scale but it doesn’t scale well on its own since they still need to build items to enhance it. And plenty of AP bruisers can go 1-2 AP items then into tank: champions like Gragas and Cho’Gath can do this. In fact, many tanks can elect for AP bruiser builds since tanks tend to scale with AP.
Rioter Comments
: They didn't, they had to buy a new one when their old one was empty
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kd4aMbA8,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-11-04T17:38:41.385+0000) > > They didn't, they had to buy a new one when their old one was empty Wow how many dollars did it cost back then? I have to think it would have been really incovenient to use your bank card all the time
: I am not sure but some loons say they didn't have cell phones in the middle aegis. Can you believe how silly these conspiracy theories are getting?
> [{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kd4aMbA8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-11-04T17:25:26.349+0000) > > I am not sure but some loons say they didn't have cell phones in the middle aegis. > > Can you believe how silly these conspiracy theories are getting? haha just hand them their lamb skin foil hats, amirite?
: I assume it had something to do with harnessing the heat from burning witches.
> [{quoted}](name=A Swarm of Koala,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kd4aMbA8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-04T17:24:55.868+0000) > > I assume it had something to do with harnessing the heat from burning witches. too soon
: If you rub two cats together vigorously enough, you can get enough charge for a few seconds of internet browsing. The *real* problem was the lack of charging cables.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kd4aMbA8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-04T17:21:57.344+0000) > > If you rub two cats together vigorously enough, you can get enough charge for a few seconds of internet browsing. The *real* problem was the lack of charging cables. THEY HAD CATS IN THE MIDDLE EDADES?????
Rioter Comments
D4M2X0 (EUW)
: full AD = high chance of winning, full ap = autolose
AP items are just as overloaded, if not more. You’re ignoring an incredibly important element of AP: it scales utility and damage, and in some cases, directly scales durability. Meanwhile, AD only scales damage and nothing more. You can have some cases where shields are scaled with AD; and LS scales with AD as well but this only scales that champions purchasing it. AP can scale it in several champions. AP also has better overall stats on their items and this means that passives really aren’t as valued highly. How many times in that past have AP combinations been inefficient by passive values but still give you a fuck ton of AP. AD can not afford that, stats and passives actually matter on their items. I’m not suggesting AP is superior - I do not believe it is nor do I believe you can really compare AD and AP equally. They do different things. But it’s disingenuous to suggest that “AD is overloaded, ad bias etc.” when itemization has absolutely nothing to do with why all AP comps do not work. All AP comps do not work because they can’t reliably DPS like ranged ADCs can and frankly the champions that do come close to doing that have massive balance problems (Azir, Ryze and Cass). Also, all AP comps HAVE worked this season when heimer, Swain, vlad and Ziggs have gone bot. The reason they worked was because AD was garbage, so they couldn’t compete with AP champions anymore. When their items were buffed, they came back. This, if anything, suggests AP would be overloaded because it takes AD to be absurd (based on your logic and definition of AD being overloaded) simply to compete with AP champions. Again, this is your logic though - I actually think there’s a good balance between the items and all AP comps don’t generally work because lack of consistent DPS.
Acanthus (NA)
: Why were AP Bruisers slowly phased out, anyway?
Because AP bruisers typically build 1-2 AP items and then went tank. The reality is that mages would build these items, and become bruiserish themselves. Granted, that has never been why any of them were nerfed. But health was scaled down largely as exploring a weakness to these items, especially during rylais/abyssal meta when mages would have 3k HP, 110 MR and 120 armor while still sitting on 500 AP and melting teams. AP Bruisers have just been nerfed in individual cases so many of them elect for full tank builds now since they typically have high base damages anyway.
FridgeD (EUW)
: "applications" good joke! the jax main got you, right? her winrate is consistent through all ranks. jax has a higher winrate, while being completly braindead. you just want a champ, that you dont play, removed from yoloq. irelia actually is fair. you can dodge her stuff and bully her in lane. you play a braindead champ with a dodge, you should now that. btw what counter play has your stat stick champ? dodge jax q?
> [{quoted}](name=FridgeD,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-11-02T00:27:06.576+0000) > > "applications" good joke! the jax main got you, right? > her winrate is consistent through all ranks. > jax has a higher winrate, while being completly braindead. you just want a champ, that you dont play, removed from yoloq. > irelia actually is fair. you can dodge her stuff and bully her in lane. you play a braindead champ with a dodge, you should now that. > > btw what counter play has your stat stick champ? dodge jax q? I honestly won’t even waste time dignifying this with a real response. Enjoy your evening.
FridgeD (EUW)
: Irelia threat number 5141566165198441542# this week on boards. checking op.gg 19,42% playrate 49,00% winrate w,e and r are dodgeable skills. you are a jax main! pls stfu about things being broken. your champ is a braindead rightclick machine with 0 counter play and 50,92% winrate! boards is fun, you can just copy your old comments for the 6th jax main (yes, your champ is a braindead dumb rightclick machine) in the 5141566165198441542# cry post on boards about irelia being so op with her amazing 49% winrate.
> [{quoted}](name=FridgeD,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-11-01T23:34:36.626+0000) > > Irelia threat number 5141566165198441542# this week on boards. > checking op.gg 19,42% playrate 49,00% winrate > w,e and r are dodgeable skills. > > you are a jax main! pls stfu about things being broken. your champ is a braindead rightclick machine with 0 counter play and 50,92% winrate! > > boards is fun, you can just copy your old comments for the 6th jax main (yes, your champ is a braindead dumb rightclick machine) in the 5141566165198441542# cry post on boards about irelia being so op with her amazing 49% winrate. Please do not reference statistics when you don’t even understand their applications. Thank you.
Pika Fox (NA)
: I said "push to tower" not "take tower". If no one is there, kill your own creeps. Deny XP and CS, and reset the lane. If she swaps with bot, swap back as well. If someone is losing CS, thats a MASSIVE advantage for your team.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T21:16:36.829+0000) > > I said "push to tower" not "take tower". If no one is there, kill your own creeps. Deny XP and CS, and reset the lane. If she swaps with bot, swap back as well. If someone is losing CS, thats a MASSIVE advantage for your team. You’re missing the point. She clears waves so fast that even if you swap back to fight her, she will have already cleared the wave and shoved it and moved on. Someone mentioned in this thread earlier that it’s even annoying to have on your team because she will hog a lot of CS. But it’s not like the CS is going to waste, she scales fairly well. And this is why it’s frustrating because you can’t truly shut her down.
Pika Fox (NA)
: You dont just "go to another wave". If shes taking CS elsewhere, someone else is rotating to cover the lane she is not in, else someone is losing farm. Punish her by shoving to tower if she refuses to take her own CS and no one else rotates to clear.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-01T19:32:14.164+0000) > > You dont just "go to another wave". If shes taking CS elsewhere, someone else is rotating to cover the lane she is not in, else someone is losing farm. Punish her by shoving to tower if she refuses to take her own CS and no one else rotates to clear. It’s not as simple as just “taking a tower” from someone else. Often times she’ll swap with bot and you aren’t going to walk up and take a tower under the nose of an ADC and support. And if it’s a mid laner, they often will clear waves from range at relatively the same pace. Sure, someone might be losing CS but that happens all the time, regardless of who the champions are. The difference is, Irelia does it way better than any other fighter/bruiser.
: I think you’re failing at reading this dude is bashing her Q in general calling it brainless when it was the same concept before her rework. It doesn’t matter if you max it first or last the damage done to minions is what contributes to her high waveclear right now. Even before rework Irelia players built Tiamat.
It was brainless then and it is now, that has nothing to do with its current level of power. And it absolutely matters if you max it first, it’s a significant difference in damage and sustain.
: Irelia has always had that so why complain about her Q reset now?
> [{quoted}](name=205181825,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-01T18:35:16.513+0000) > > Irelia has always had that so why complain about her Q reset now? Because between Tiamat and the fact that she maxes Q first now, she clears much faster, sustains better and results in her having better overall powrrfarming
: > [{quoted}](name=HateDaddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T18:36:41.912+0000) > > That’s some of it but she also didn’t max Q first, whereas she maxes it now. So she clears much easier now as opposed to then when she’d max W or E first. Tiamat is some of it but it’s absolutely undeniable that it’s clearing too easily now while also being her main source of sustain and damage (not totally different from her former kit either, but again, she maxes it first now). Yeah true. But theyre buffing minion resistances for S9 and that will hurt her clearing.
> [{quoted}](name=ankoanko19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T18:39:39.610+0000) > > Yeah true. But theyre buffing minion resistances for S9 and that will hurt her clearing. This is also true
: > [{quoted}](name=HateDaddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-11-01T18:27:39.481+0000) > > I don’t think they should take it away but it needs some adjusting. She literally gibs waves like it’s nothing. It can be iconic but that doesn’t mean it can’t be too powerful. But she did so prior to the rework too when she reached level 13. The current Q however deals around 50 more dmg to minions than pre-rework. It's MOSTLY tiamat doing all the work. Otherwise she has always been able to just auto+Q kill a minon with only a phage.
> [{quoted}](name=ankoanko19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T18:32:55.195+0000) > > But she did so prior to the rework too when she reached level 13. The current Q however deals around 50 more dmg to minions than pre-rework. It's MOSTLY tiamat doing all the work. Otherwise she has always been able to just auto+Q kill a minon with only a phage. That’s some of it but she also didn’t max Q first, whereas she maxes it now. So she clears much easier now as opposed to then when she’d max W or E first. Tiamat is some of it but it’s absolutely undeniable that it’s clearing too easily now while also being her main source of sustain and damage (not totally different from her former kit either, but again, she maxes it first now).
: Why do top laners get tilted easier?
It’s the only lane in the game where you can legit have your inhib lost 15 minutes and your team straight up won’t help you despite you pleading with them to do so before you lose your inhibitor. Then you get flamed for it to boot. As you can tell by the responses, it’s an incredibly toxic experience.
: They cant take away her minion reset. It's LITERALLY her most iconic theme ever. However, you're right that they need to remove one of Irelias functions. She has too many tools to work with.
> [{quoted}](name=ankoanko19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-01T18:17:02.137+0000) > > They cant take away her minion reset. It's LITERALLY her most iconic theme ever. However, you're right that they need to remove one of Irelias functions. She has too many tools to work with. I don’t think they should take it away but it needs some adjusting. She literally gibs waves like it’s nothing. It can be iconic but that doesn’t mean it can’t be too powerful.
Rioter Comments
: it's so easy to avoid minion block if you have solid micro, literally is only a benefit rn
> [{quoted}](name=Random NA JG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hAP8eU1Y,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-31T22:08:59.378+0000) > > it's so easy to avoid minion block if you have solid micro, literally is only a benefit rn We must be playing a different game because my micro is fine plus I’m pinging 20 to the servers so lag isn’t an explanation.
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HateDaddy

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