: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cLKBmjGK,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T11:07:21.865+0000) > > Essentially, yes. You become the tops support. Its just that, while bot also has a support, the amount of pressure you put in the top lane is far, far better than just taking any old other support and jungler top with them. But bt doing this, you are reducing the xp your top laner gets and completely ignoring the majority of the gold gain from jungle.
But in turn, you are demolishing the lane with rift herald, getting the enemy laner extremely far behind, attracting jungle attention, and are barely behind in xp and gold because of the lane structure.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cLKBmjGK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-13T10:58:10.165+0000) > > So you got any actual criticism or anything to add to the discussion? Or you just gonna be that guy no one likes? This post is as dumb as the thread. -You got 14 cs in a 24 minute game. -You leeched exp off of your laners and put your top laner 4 levels behind -You can't clear the jungle at a reasonable speed -You aren't even purchasing a jungle item -Starting with a Support item in the jungle is troll -You are 100% reliant on your team to carry you -You can not contest the enemy jungler over any objective -You won't have prio anywhere on the map including your own jungle You aren't even really jungling. You are cheesing normals with a duo and you are playing as a second support in the top lane. It is easy to tell this because you are absorbing your laner's exp in every game. Imagine doing that to a random player. You use a sample size of one ranked game (you also had a duo) that you lost to tell everyone that Yuumi is OP? The only games you won with it are normals with your duo where you are up against Unrankeds, Irons, Silvers, and the occasional Plat player that is just playing norms to goof off. 3 Normals and 1 Ranked game that you lost (all with a duo that carried you) is enough of a sample size? How can someone as clueless as you be so quick to act like an asshole to people in your thread who have done nothing wrong?
You looked at: The literal only game we lost with this strat, against a bad matchup (Which every lane has) And assumed that meant that everything you said was right and everything I said was wrong. So: You dont clear jungle. You tank buff while your jungler does most of the work, or hang in them and give them attack speed heals. You mostly just tank it early on. You CAN purchase a jungle item and roam and have jungle pressure, however we havent been playing like that when hes the driver and im the Yuumi. You can contest the jungler over any top lane objective and win almost every time. Early dragons have been nerfed to have far less early value than before, while rift has had buffs. You bully the enemy laner to be SO far behind, in a 2v2 encounter you just win. How bout you actually READ the post before you make criticism, because youd see i addressed most of those 'issues'
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cLKBmjGK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T10:57:35.104+0000) > > Did....did you read it at all? > > You tank the buff, and either go to lane with them or go to their buff. > > And you completely ignored how ADC/SUPPORT pair is far less able to bully and gain advantage than top/jungle. > > Please dont comment if you've not even read half the post. So you dont jungle? You just take a buff then become a support?
Essentially, yes. You become the tops support. Its just that, while bot also has a support, the amount of pressure you put in the top lane is far, far better than just taking any old other support and jungler top with them.
: I think this post won't need bots to get into negative.
So you got any actual criticism or anything to add to the discussion? Or you just gonna be that guy no one likes?
: Yuumi can barely clear her 2nd camp... Especially if she tanks a buff for her toplaner. You also say the invade is exclusive to top/yuumi but adc does more damage than the average toplaner.
Did....did you read it at all? You tank the buff, and either go to lane with them or go to their buff. And you completely ignored how ADC/SUPPORT pair is far less able to bully and gain advantage than top/jungle. Please dont comment if you've not even read half the post.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AieL94vo,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-12-11T23:50:58.882+0000) > > and vayne/kai sa arent? Vayne i also despise but to be honest, unless you have a 300+ armor Rammus on the game then Twitch post laning does way way more than a Vayne ever will if they are equally fed. He pops out of stealth at ....xerath Q max range? And ults at the same time, 3 attacks at 2.0 attackspeed and suddenly all the squishies on your team are either dead or at 10-15% health, most of them cant even shoot back because of how far away he is. Kai´sa? To be honest i do not think she is much of a problem.........she´s been nerfed enough so although she´s slippery and scales well she´s not anywhere near as bad as the other two. She has a legitimately weak early game, short range, Q does no damage aside from on isolated targets, W can easily be dodged and so her all in is far from threatening unless she already has a lead or a aggressive support like Leo while you sit on a passive one like Soraka.
Hope you realize at that range you can literally walk perpendicularly and he will miss his shot.
Rioter Comments
: CertainlyT is unironically one of the issues with champion designs and them being overloaded. He just jam packs so many passives into an average kit that it's ridiculous.
Aphelios is literally just CT jizzing into a notepad. I had no idea who made him until I thought "I bet CT made him didnt he". Of course he did. Another impossible to balance champ to permaban status on his list.
: Can we please stop creating overloaded champs?
Aphelios is 100000% the most broken thing ive ever seen. The sheer stat stick that is this guy is so insane. You can be 2/12 and still 1v1 literally anyone in the game with any sense of a brain. The bad combinations still destroy people and the good combinations will 100-0 on any normal ADC build. I used to think Yasuo was the most broken (and I still kinda do) but having not just 2 kits, but 5 different guns and 25 different combinations, this guy is literally impossible to balance. To permaban status we go!
Rioter Comments
: ......I am gona be honest here, i absolutely hate twitch and i am very, very happy that he is not seeing any kind of play. Because his gameplay pattern after laning is too damn toxic between that stealth+ult+ADC damage.
: > A solid hit is guaranteed to get the detonation especially on an already cc'd target. You can walk out of the zone without boots. It doesnt matter how "solid" the hit is. And then add tier2 boots, ms buffs and dashes into the mix. > I just think that straight buffs is a horrible idea (As someone who hates playing with and against her). Honestly, another rework is in order, they didnt really get it right the first time. Now I am convinced you didn't read my post at all. I am NOT in favour of buffing her, I am strictly talking about reworking certain aspects of her kit. In fact, the whole post is built upon me protesting against the shieldbuffs.
Im not really responding to you specifically, more the general consensus that 'karma needs buffs'
: Okay, first of all, the RQ damage you listed already includes Q damage. The mantra damage is actually: 175 (+40%AP) & 360 (+60%AP) However, if you wanna talk about lvl1 mantra, it's only 25 & 35 damage respectively, in addition to an 80 damage Q, which puts the respectable base damage growth in perspective. The second explosion is handcrafted to ALWAYS allow ANY champion to walk out of it, even without boots, as long as they keep walking. So realistically it's usually a slightly more accessible 105 + (70%AP) damage burst every ~40s instead of a 80+(40%) damage poke. Compared to a Lux which can hit you for 70 (+70%AP) plus passive for 20 (+20%AP) the damage is actually rather similar. Lux requires an AA, but is on a 13s cooldown, a third of Karma RQ's cooldown. And don't even get me started on comparing Karma's full combo to the full combo of any other mage out there. It just doesn't hold up. So no, Karma's early game RQ is not THAT broken as you just pretended. Additionally, you seemingly just ignored that the bonus damage usually comes at the cost of her survivability, so she already has to choose between either. And if you had read my post you could've seen that I argue for an EASIER to dodge RQ (putting more skill expression on Karma AND her opponent).
Early game she holds up as good with any other mage bottom, its when you get to mid game and mid lane that her Q starts to go off. A solid hit is guaranteed to get the detonation especially on an already cc'd target. Additionally, if you are on the aggressive, you can afford to give up your survivability. Your base shield and movement speed is enough to get out pretty much anything that isnt a lockdown and your link stops persistent threats. I'm not saying that karma shouldnt be viable. I just think that straight buffs is a horrible idea (As someone who hates playing with and against her). Honestly, another rework is in order, they didnt really get it right the first time.
Crashyy (EUW)
: Resolve rune tree "Durability and crowd control", seems to do more damage than both of those traits
Resolve has basically no damage besides the keystone. Literally only Shield rune and Demolish deals damage. Aftershock and Grasp have been nerfed many times, leave em alone.
: Her Q currently deals 80-260 (+40%AP) magic damage. Compared to a Lux Q, which is 70-250 (+70%AP) Or Syndra's Q, which is 70-230 (+65%AP) It's quite obvious that she has high base damages, but with the current scaling, you can't claim it's a lot of damge overall. You also have to keep in mind, that she has fewer individual damage sources than those other two (she has literally only 2.33 damage abilities, while those two have 4) I also see Karma die all the time, once she is CC'd she falls really quickly? I get that her RW can be quite stupid at times, but she gives up most of her damage for it.
Mantra Q hits for 435 + 70 ap on impact and 350 + 60 ap on detonation, over 3x that amount. Yes, she uses ultfor it, but its up often enough at accessible at level 1 that it puts far too much pressure on the laner.
: > However, instead of doing anything to make Top Karma more healthy, to make Mid Karma viable, instead of thinking about what put Karma into this sutiuation, you focus on buffing the most boring part about Support Karma? I would add that support Karma isnt very healthy too (as soon as it gets strong the shields are nerfed, it offers not much interaction, its just backline spamming). The biggest issue current Karma has is that her kit and identity is a mess. Most importantly the build/role dictates the Mantra you choose instead of the current situation, making almost all decision making non existent. Each Mantra should offer something for damage, surviability and Utility/support, instead of being separated (RQ is for damage, RW fo surviability and RE for Utility). I agree that W also needs an ally option. She is lacking a real theme and visuals: where are the twin dragons involved in her visuals? Only her Mantle of decorum and her passive Icon are clearly featuring them. Her Kit doesnt support the twin dragons (no indicating visuals etc.), nor the Spirit mage (kit doesnt really feel like that, also visuals).
The thing I hate most about karma is the fact that her Q hits disgustingly hard and shes impossible to reliably kill. Ditch one of those features, and I'd be far more open to see her relevant again.
Boomer (OCE)
: Way to move the goal posts.
what goalposts? IF they dont take primary green tree they dont need compensation, and thus ultimately end up with more armor/mr options from the bottom 3 runes than they did before
: Some champions preferred HP/lvl yellows. They didn't get compensated. Vlad, for example, got 4 armor. No hp/lvl.
Then take the HP per level rune? Sounds like vlad got a free buff then
Boomer (OCE)
: No. Most champions got a base armor OR health OR MR buff. For example, Aatrox got 9 armor. Ahri got 12HP and 12HP/lvl. Akali got 5HP, 5HP/lvl, and 5 armor. A lot got nothing. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-722-notes
Its almost like they werent tank champs so they didnt take the green tree so they didnt deserve as big of a buff
: You think? Cuz heres the answer: They didn't. Theres a decent amount of armor and mr missing since runes reforged, and the stat shards barely do anything in terms of fixing it.
Yes. Most champs got anywhere from 6-9 armor, and you can grab 12 just from the runes at the bottom. Armor seals in themself were only 9 armor, so this is a 12 armor gain for tanks, 6-9 for carries.. You could not get ALL of the armor runes youlisted, only some, so ultimately you ended up with more armor than you lost. You are just factually wrong here. Even if you could, it was not picked because the damage/utility was ultimately more valuable than the armor.
: Make {{item:3102}} a tank item again for a start. The mid-season 7 tank update was one of the worst large scale updates in the game and a big part of that is because it completely ruined tank itemization and removed the dedicated anti-burst MR option from their item pool so that mages could build it and then proceed to never do so in the 2-and-a-half years since. The next step would be to bump the pure damage items down to the gold value that tanks get. For armor item, that value ranges from around 70% Gold efficient ({{item:3075}} ) to 85% ({{item:3068}}) MR items a bit more efficient in that regard, and {{item:3065}} is above gold efficient, but that efficiency comes from the base health regen. Without additional healing in a tank's kit, it isn't much better than {{item:3194}}'s 88% gold efficiency. The reason the raw gold efficiency is so important in this discussion comes from how damage and resistances scale. It's been said by some, erroneously, that resistances "fall off" in their damage mitigation. This isn't true, but what is true is that point for point, damage scales at twice the rate of resistance. Consider two identical champions auto attack trading: 1000 health 100 AD 100 AR (= 2000 effective health vs physical damage) vs 1000 100 100 = 20 autos to kill Add 50 AD to one and 50 Armor to the other: 1000 health 150 AD 100 AR vs 1000 100 150 (=2500 effective health) = 16.6 autos to kill (17 whole autos) How about 100 extra armor instead? = 3000 effective health =20 autos to kill Point for point, you need twice the bonus armor as an opposing AD build needs AD to match them. Now, the base items already indicate an issue. {{item:1029}} grants 15 armor for 300g (20g per point) {{item:1036}} grants 10 AD for 350 (35g per point). That is, AD costs 1.75x the cost of armor. Oh, AD outscales armor at a 2x rate, but only costs 1.75x. Hmm, maybe things look better on the magical end? MR and AP isn't quite the same comparison since AP ratios differ among champions, but the general rule that governs the cost of AP vs AD is that both should cost around 60% of their physical counterpart. Ahh! Well, see, while AP costs 60% (okay, 62% and some decimals) the cost of AD, MR costs 90% of the price of Armor, at 18g per point. That explains in large part why even without MR shred, AP champions with at least 62% AP ratios will just out trade against the same cost of a pure MR build. And that's not even going into the fact that tanks need to split the resistances they build making them half-again as effective against BOTH damage types. Before mid-season 7 this was less of an issue, as both the largest MR and AR items -- {{item:3065}} and {{item:3742}} / {{item:3068}}, granted more health which helped against the opposing damage type and multiplied the effect of the resistance they granted by that much more. For the armor items' case, that's 75 more health but 10 less armor (Granting a total of 750 effective health on its own compared to the 680 effective health from the live version). For {{item:3065}} it's 50 more health and 5 less MR (750 effective health vs 697.5 for live). With the higher health, both together granted much more tankiness than the combination does currently: 1500 effective health against both damage types, compared to live's 1400 vs physical and 1356.25 vs magic damage. But riot wasn't done, no sir. Later that year would see pre-season 8 and ~~MASTERIES RENAMED~~ I mean RUNES REFORGED. With this new rune system, not only were armor red/yellows/quints and scaling MR blues gone removing ~27 of both resistances, but a lot, and I mean a lot a lot, of resistances were completely cut from the Masteries themselves. Siegemaster gone -8 both resistances. Unyielding gone -5% bonus resistances. Veteran's scars gone -50 health. Fearless gone -10% +1.5 per level resistances. Legendary guardian gone -3 resistances in 1v1s, -6/9 in skirmishes, and - 15 in team fights. Stoneborn pact GONE -5% health. And in the place of all of that? +9 base armor to compensate missing yellows; 9 resistances +5% only after laning phase is already lost; and a whopping 33 health after 13 waves of nonstop uninterrupted farming (~8 minutes of never leaving lane from the start of the first wave to the end of the 13th.). Oh and that farm eventually gives +3.5% health if you never go for objectives or help the team in any way for 20 minutes. Woo. So 27 +8 +3 +1.5 +5% +10% = 45.485 resistance and 50 +5% = 52.5 health minimum (level 1, and against 1 opponent) gone , and 9 +9 +5% = 18.9 armor, 9 +10% = 9.45 MR, and 66 +3.5% = 89.1 health maximum after 20 minutes added. I mean maybe someone at riot just.. Forgot to compensate for the missing stats entirely with the new runes? Oh nope carry champions get infinitely scaling AP/AD or 20 bonus adaptive force above 70% health and +9 base AD and +16 adaptive force and 6 armorpen/mpen for walking into a brush and 20 bonus adaptive force for warding/oneshotting 0.01second faster than their opponent. So they didn't forget to compensate them fuck no.
but every champion got a base armor and health buff along with the extra little 3 runes at the bottom of a rune page and it balances out.
Rioter Comments
: Uhm, isn't this copyright infringement?
If this is copyright infringement then so is all other fanart. I dont plan on actually making the game. Just coming up with everything and designing the looks. No physical game will ever be created unless riot or one of its branches strictly gives me permission and/or funding to
: do you need a concept artist or a graphic designer? because i can concept art, but not high quality.
Rioter Comments
: They should just remove the flat damage on it, or bring it way down to maybe 5 per proc at most. 15 damage for free is like having 50 AP or something for those hits.
Midg3t (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sO7hYrEG,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-05T11:30:38.513+0000) > > So what youre saying is, its frostfangs fault because its way easier to proc than the other items. > > Hitting the enemy to get gold is not difficult. And thats part of the reason why mage supports are here. > > EVEN IN A VACUUM, without this mage support issue, its amazing to me yall are trying to justify frostfang being twice as good as the other options. By your logic {{item:3301}} is broken as shit then cuz in order to get gold from it you only need to be in lane, there is no need to hit anything to get gold unlike frostfang xD And yea, it's not hard to hit the enemy, if they don't retaliate ofc. FF isn't an issue. Runes are the issue because you're getting so much free dmg from it.
Its got the least gold efficiency out of all three items, and it has arguably the most risk to get the coin (like 300 range, less than a range auto, with no heal like targon) FF is 100% the issue. Dont be surprised when mags continue to stay bot until this item is nerfed.
: yeah, targons would be broken if you randomly added armor while keeping all of it's other stats intact. Like what type of comparison is that? also the item that gives the most consistent amount of gold in the game is still the coin line. You can deny enemies from proccing their spellthief's passive by either dodging or just generating pressure in lane to the point that they do not feel safe trying to poke you. Ofc if the enemy that has spellthief also has the pressure advantage in lane they would generate a bunch of gold. You act like 20 AP is such a huge amount when in reality it translates to what in most cases? 10 extra damage? 11? 12? to abilities that already more than likely have a decent CD or mana costs attached to them? or do you think that the measly 50% mana regen that the item gives is going to achieve anything? Frostfang or the spellthief line in general are the least of your worries when it comes to mage supports. Stuff like making heals and shields weaker, making ADCs even more weak in the early game, increasing the effectives of poke and all ins due to the higher up front damage in the early game. Are way more problematic than Frostfang. Right now if you play passively at all in any stage of the game, you are literally playing wrong. That is pretty much what Riot has been telling us since forever. Defensive play has gotten worst and worst over the years, while offensive ones have gotten more and more rewarding to the point that a single offensive play can give you such stupid advantages that there is no defensive play available to you. You want to get back into the game? well launch yourself into the enemy that is ahead and keep doing it over and over until they misplay in some regard. That is literally your hope of getting back into the game. Hoping that the enemy misplays and gets either greedy or have no idea what to do with an advantage
So if having that much gold efficiency on targons is obviously unbalanced, why is it suddenly ok with frostfang? Its not. Trying to say it is is just irrational.
: > [{quoted}](name=KnightsKemplar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=vYItR0Uk,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-04T21:08:01.147+0000)Hopefully, at this point, I've convinced you that there's a problem with the item. You've convinced me there's a problem with Support itemization, but not necessarily that the issue is with Spellthief's specifically, as it might be that the others aren't tuned sufficiently vs. Spellthief's. > I understand the design principle here. Spellthief's forces interaction. But, in practice, it leads to a stressful laning experience rather than a few tense moments brought about by that interaction. The team with more kill pressure wins, because there are so few defensive options. That's why everyone complains about League's damage. This makes it seem like the issue isn't Spellthief's specifically, but rather the AP it grants. The *mechanic* seems fine -- even healthier than Targon's or Coin, perhaps -- as it encourages interaction. I can see the argument that it grants kill lanes too much power though, as it provides mages with the two things they want: AP and mana regeneration. > I actually got the idea to write about this because of Nexus Blitz. *Someone* at Riot must understand this, because *there is no Spellthief's alternative on Nexus Blitz.* Potential counter-argument: killing minions is something everyone does on **Nexus Blitz**, and that shuts down Spellthief's gold generation. Rather than add an exception to that item's functionality, it makes a bit more sense, to me, to simply remove it as an option. --------------------------------- Personally, my initial exploration into this would be to consider whether or not there are other things you could do with the item that would appeal to similar characters without giving as much early power. Something like a small mana restoration upon using a charge instead of constantly providing an increase, or limiting the AP to the final item (Frost Queens) rather than giving it earlier, or simply removing the bonus damage from the proc effect. Still, I do think there's something to be said for how *good* the item feels, so I'd worry about cutting too much power. It does have a much more satisfying feedback loop than Ancient Coin or Targon's, and I think that's a strong reason behind finding ways to adjust it while keeping that good feeling.
I agree that the stats it gives are PART of the problem, the other problem is how much. IT gives 400g more orth of stats for free than the other support items do, for no reason. As I've stated before, imagine if targons had 10 armor and 10 cdr tacked on. Tank supports would be flooding bot lane right? Thats exactly what is happening, 400g extra on an item so that class is flooding bot.
: No. Enchanter nerfs. Enchanters countered mages prior to the nerfs and tanks countered enchanters.
Pretty sure tanks countered mages, like they always have. Hard engage lanes have always beat poke combo lanes.
: That and its not frostfang`s fault that ultra long range or aoe spells can apply it safely/reliably, that's the mages fault lol
So what youre saying is, its frostfangs fault because its way easier to proc than the other items. Hitting the enemy to get gold is not difficult. And thats part of the reason why mage supports are here. EVEN IN A VACUUM, without this mage support issue, its amazing to me yall are trying to justify frostfang being twice as good as the other options.
: ... someone who donest understand the issue mages supports aren't an issue because of {{item:3098}} mage supports are an issue because the lack of sightstone and {{item:3312}} after your first back frostfang is 500 gold ( i guess 450 now but w/e) now before we would grab sightstone and then buy complete {{item:3312}} after we finish both of those items ( and t1 boots) we would build AP in our remaining three slots compare that to now we are no longer spending 1350 gold to finish {{item:3312}} because all we are getting is some HP and 1 more ward slot and we arn't spending 800 gold on sightstone... or upgrading that to ruby sightstone for lower active cooldowns and even we we do complete {{item:3092}} eventually it takes up only one item slot so now we have 4 damage slots and are buying damage 2150 gold faster than we used to when we bought sightstone and had 3 damage slots. believe me... my two favorite supports are {{champion:25}} and {{champion:99}} i now sometimes get a {{item:3157}} on morg 10 min and i am even able to activate {{item:2419}} {{item:3098}} isn't "too good".. the issue is we no longer spend any gold to upgrade past it, because they shoved sightstone on it for free and made its upgrade shit; so its more effective to just leave it as it is and build damage. and late game we have an extra item slot
Hmm.. I wonder if frostfang could be whats leading to damage buying supports? if that wasnt the case, we would have a mage and a protective support like Nami or Sona or Alistar partnered with them, but now its not uncommon to see just two mages. Oh wait, it is. Its BECAUSE frostfang is too good were not seeing other supports. You don't think the other support items got the free treatment as well? They are free to build other items. Janna is free to start building ardent and redemption sooner, tanks are free to build partner items sooner. etc.
Rioter Comments
: Yeah. I've never been a huge fan. But I think the present situation gives us a good opportunity to really look at it in-depth. Mage supports are legit out of control atm.
Mage supports are able to succeed solely because of this item. If it did not give extra damage and have 120% stat efficiency, mages would end up pushed out. If it shared the same stat efficiency as the others (70-80%) then you wouldn't see more than brand and morgana bot lane. Mages typically have lower base damage early game---oh this item covers that with damage per spell hit Mages typically use a lot of mana---oh this item has 50% base mana regen on it Mages typically want to spam spells more----oh this item has 10% cdr on it Cant forget the scaling too! Mages need AP-----oh this item has that too. To put in perspective: {{item:4302}} would need 10% cdr and 10 armor for it to have the same gold stats as {{item:3098}}. Hell swap that CDR for another 12 armor and surprise! Tank supports are broken!
: Spellthief's Edge isn't healthy or necessary in League of Legends
Honestly surprised its taking people this long to see why mage supports are broken {{item:3098}} Ive been saying for seasons on end, that 22 gp 10 (highest the game has ever seen), extra burst damage, on top of a 120% gold efficient item with all desireable stats has been busted but people thought "oh janna builds coin so its not busted right?" Literally no active bot laners but rekan and thresh build anything other than frostfang. Its written on the item. "This item does everything you want it to, has the best gp10 in league history and gives you more stats in gold than you purchased" Even when gp10 was meta, Philo stone, heart of gold and gp10 runes still wouldnt add up to 22gp10, and thats in a meta where you had to BUY wards.
: > [{quoted}](name=Raymønd Åmantius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PBJugZhd,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-04T16:27:08.437+0000) > > Jax is busted. > Yi, however, is fine. > LIterally just draft ANY point and click cc and wait until he uses q. He'lll be 100% dead. > Can't anyone understand this? Yi press Q all CC dodged and outplayed. Pentakill. Jax? He stayes alive for little longer with ult and then dies.
Lol that is some irrational butthurt if ive ever seen it.
Sasogwa (EUW)
: I'm at a point I wish you could ban a keystone or an item instead of a champion
Riven mains have consistently made top challenger for seasons and seasons on end even when she was 'unplayable' but yeah its conqueror right? cant be the champions abusing it. This is the type of bandaid shit that let ezreal come back time and time again. Nerfing the wand instead of the catalyst.
GigglesO (NA)
: "Bruisers" {{champion:11}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:23}} are the 3 biggest abusers of it. All 3 are in the class of melee carries, aka not bruiser. I will give you this one for free {{champion:24}} He is an inteded target, but it again makes him too strong.
And two of those are cancer design in themself. Tryndamere not so much, but he could use a rework to remove just pure stat check. Yi already has true damage on hit and yasuo already has like 40% armor pen, conq just makes it worse.
floo (EUW)
: Totally uninteractive is wrong. Face with the vital spot towards a wall and Fiora has no passive for the fight. It's a stretch, but more counterplay than some other champions have.
Oh please, thats IF theres a wall around and IF its on the right side. And even then fiora can still worm her way in there with her Q. Its so much of a stretch its not worth mentioning
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: Now, that's really unfair and honestly, a dumb argument to make. CertailyT's champions/reworks seem to irk people on sheer "overloaded" factor and fallback mechanics that counter counterplay itself and yet, Zyra doesn't even fulfill these two categories! All she has is poke and damage - she's still a mage even you want to consider her as a support. You focus her and she has nothing to fall back to except to hope that she can rotate her entire skillset and get a kill in return, otherwise she's dead. Extremely immobile, squishy champion with no escapes, dashes, blinks, stealths or defensive abilities whatsoever.
Thats because hes not the sole designer. He was a codesign.
Febos (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VWuzNBo6,comment-id=000100000004,timestamp=2019-01-02T15:01:34.587+0000) > > Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason) False. Ranged champions can use Conqueror too. What they can't do is refresh the buff duration. Read the description of the keystone. Thanks for incorrecting me.
Name a single ranged champion that uses conqueror other than {{champion:119}} because he doesnt have a keystone. You can't because there are none. Conqueror was made to be garbage on range champs specifically.
Arakadia (NA)
: How are you not rewarded if you deny her a vital? You deny her huge amounts of damage and healing until a new one spawns (which won't happen in a fight or if she is ulting you can deny her the mega heal).
When the timer runs out on a vital, youre rewarded with.....a better vital for her to hit. Not even a cooldown for an opportunity attack.
: Yes, but how is she a problem with Conqueror specifically. Not saying she isn't a problem in her own way, but how does she make conqueror more problematic with how her kit already is?
People refer to bruisers being too cancer because of conqueror, when in reality its just a couple bruisers need put in their place.
: Skillshots have always been a balance factor wtf? Of course you can make an op skillshot, I didn't say that a skillshot couldn't be op, just that it can't be compared 1:1 with a non-skillshot. What, you think Annie Q should have the exact same range and stun duration as brand Q?
Effective range of skillshots dies down the farther the end. So not only would brand and annie q be hit around the same range every time (because its way more likely hes going to E first for the typical EQW combo, which hey hes in the same range as annie Q now) the stun duration actually is the same (Annie is less early, more later, so lets just call it the same) So you actually disproved your own point with your own example. Great job!
: I agree that Pyke is a pain in the ass, but one huge factor that I haven't seen mentioned once in this thread is that Pyke's ult, unlike the other listed, is a _skillshot_. Regardless of how easy/hard you think it is to dodge, it completely changes a skill for it to be able to be put on cooldown with 0 effect. Additionally, Pyke is a support, and (goldsharing execute or not) is generally expected to be sitting on less gold at any given point in the game than Darius or Cho'gath - his ratio is expected to work off of less money, and his base damages to hold up more on their own than theirs are.
Skillshots have never been a balance factor. If a 1 use ability that travelled 1 unit per second that did 1 million true damage, BUT IS A SKILLSHOT ITS BALANCED as if theres no way to prevent missing or dodging, and as if those methods didnt exist on the same fucking kit (a 90% slow and a stun)
Terozu (NA)
: They very regularly do display this information...
Not really, they only do it when they use anecdotal evidence to push a motive they want. Hence "low elo vietnam"
: Fiora's kit in general with all the true damage and the vital mechanic is what makes her weak and strong. Had they taken the time to remove the mechanic for something healthier, she'd probably see better days.
I totally agree, the minigame is totally uninteractable on the victim end (no reward for not letting her hit it, in fact in some ways its a punishment), and max health true damage is cancer in general.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VWuzNBo6,comment-id=000100000004,timestamp=2019-01-02T15:01:34.587+0000) > > Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason) > > I like that bruisers are strong, its just some problem champs in particular making things shit {{champion:39}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}} how is camille a problem champ?? i mean she doesn't even take conqueror, she usually takes pta, her kits overloaded but she's practically forced into the jungle
Overstatted champs with 1600 range dashes will always be a problem
Febos (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VWuzNBo6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-02T06:41:17.758+0000) > > You know marksman have an item that does the same thing as conqueror right? {{item:3031}} - Costs 3400 G - Only works with critical strikes - Converts 10% of critical strike damage to true damage Conqueror: - Costs 1 keystone slot - Works with any type of damage - Converts 20% of the damage to true damage Calling them "equal" is a big strech. IE and Conqueror are not all at equal. But there's more: - With IE you actually need to itemize for critical strikes. If you want 100% uptime of your IE value, then you'd need 50% base critical strike chance. You're looking at 3 items worth of gold, not just IE cost. - IE **only** works with on-hit effects, ie basic attacks, unlike Conqueror. - IE has "infinite" uptime if you have 100% critical strike chance. Conqueror can get there too, theoretically, as long as you keep attacking your target and assuming you're melee. - Champions that take Conqueror are usually buying more defense than offense, or a mix of both, meaning they're more durable than the champions buying IE. In other words, you can build more tanky and deal almost has much damage as someone with IE. - Conqueror can be stacked while fighting minions and monsters. It also only need 4 seconds to be fully stacked and "out of combat" only kicks in after 5 seconds. In other words, you can hit a minion and walk up to your target. By the time you reach them it will be fully stacked. *** I'm not taking sides on Conqueror balancing. I'm just explaining why saying Conqueror is the same as IE is a big overlook.
Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason) I like that bruisers are strong, its just some problem champs in particular making things shit {{champion:39}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}}
Terozu (NA)
: This is specifically why they have curve data and player rank specific data, they do check those good players compared to the bad players, they survey for frustration. Quite literally their statistics tell the vast majority of the story and the only things missing can be equated to the exact length of a minor characters 2,085th hair follicle in a series like the Elder Scrolls.
Maybe if riot were likely to release their data instead of keeping it behind doors id be more likely to believe.
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