: Uhm, isn't this copyright infringement?
If this is copyright infringement then so is all other fanart. I dont plan on actually making the game. Just coming up with everything and designing the looks. No physical game will ever be created unless riot or one of its branches strictly gives me permission and/or funding to
: do you need a concept artist or a graphic designer? because i can concept art, but not high quality.
Rioter Comments
: They should just remove the flat damage on it, or bring it way down to maybe 5 per proc at most. 15 damage for free is like having 50 AP or something for those hits.
Midg3t (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sO7hYrEG,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-05T11:30:38.513+0000) > > So what youre saying is, its frostfangs fault because its way easier to proc than the other items. > > Hitting the enemy to get gold is not difficult. And thats part of the reason why mage supports are here. > > EVEN IN A VACUUM, without this mage support issue, its amazing to me yall are trying to justify frostfang being twice as good as the other options. By your logic {{item:3301}} is broken as shit then cuz in order to get gold from it you only need to be in lane, there is no need to hit anything to get gold unlike frostfang xD And yea, it's not hard to hit the enemy, if they don't retaliate ofc. FF isn't an issue. Runes are the issue because you're getting so much free dmg from it.
Its got the least gold efficiency out of all three items, and it has arguably the most risk to get the coin (like 300 range, less than a range auto, with no heal like targon) FF is 100% the issue. Dont be surprised when mags continue to stay bot until this item is nerfed.
: yeah, targons would be broken if you randomly added armor while keeping all of it's other stats intact. Like what type of comparison is that? also the item that gives the most consistent amount of gold in the game is still the coin line. You can deny enemies from proccing their spellthief's passive by either dodging or just generating pressure in lane to the point that they do not feel safe trying to poke you. Ofc if the enemy that has spellthief also has the pressure advantage in lane they would generate a bunch of gold. You act like 20 AP is such a huge amount when in reality it translates to what in most cases? 10 extra damage? 11? 12? to abilities that already more than likely have a decent CD or mana costs attached to them? or do you think that the measly 50% mana regen that the item gives is going to achieve anything? Frostfang or the spellthief line in general are the least of your worries when it comes to mage supports. Stuff like making heals and shields weaker, making ADCs even more weak in the early game, increasing the effectives of poke and all ins due to the higher up front damage in the early game. Are way more problematic than Frostfang. Right now if you play passively at all in any stage of the game, you are literally playing wrong. That is pretty much what Riot has been telling us since forever. Defensive play has gotten worst and worst over the years, while offensive ones have gotten more and more rewarding to the point that a single offensive play can give you such stupid advantages that there is no defensive play available to you. You want to get back into the game? well launch yourself into the enemy that is ahead and keep doing it over and over until they misplay in some regard. That is literally your hope of getting back into the game. Hoping that the enemy misplays and gets either greedy or have no idea what to do with an advantage
So if having that much gold efficiency on targons is obviously unbalanced, why is it suddenly ok with frostfang? Its not. Trying to say it is is just irrational.
: > [{quoted}](name=KnightsKemplar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=vYItR0Uk,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-04T21:08:01.147+0000)Hopefully, at this point, I've convinced you that there's a problem with the item. You've convinced me there's a problem with Support itemization, but not necessarily that the issue is with Spellthief's specifically, as it might be that the others aren't tuned sufficiently vs. Spellthief's. > I understand the design principle here. Spellthief's forces interaction. But, in practice, it leads to a stressful laning experience rather than a few tense moments brought about by that interaction. The team with more kill pressure wins, because there are so few defensive options. That's why everyone complains about League's damage. This makes it seem like the issue isn't Spellthief's specifically, but rather the AP it grants. The *mechanic* seems fine -- even healthier than Targon's or Coin, perhaps -- as it encourages interaction. I can see the argument that it grants kill lanes too much power though, as it provides mages with the two things they want: AP and mana regeneration. > I actually got the idea to write about this because of Nexus Blitz. *Someone* at Riot must understand this, because *there is no Spellthief's alternative on Nexus Blitz.* Potential counter-argument: killing minions is something everyone does on **Nexus Blitz**, and that shuts down Spellthief's gold generation. Rather than add an exception to that item's functionality, it makes a bit more sense, to me, to simply remove it as an option. --------------------------------- Personally, my initial exploration into this would be to consider whether or not there are other things you could do with the item that would appeal to similar characters without giving as much early power. Something like a small mana restoration upon using a charge instead of constantly providing an increase, or limiting the AP to the final item (Frost Queens) rather than giving it earlier, or simply removing the bonus damage from the proc effect. Still, I do think there's something to be said for how *good* the item feels, so I'd worry about cutting too much power. It does have a much more satisfying feedback loop than Ancient Coin or Targon's, and I think that's a strong reason behind finding ways to adjust it while keeping that good feeling.
I agree that the stats it gives are PART of the problem, the other problem is how much. IT gives 400g more orth of stats for free than the other support items do, for no reason. As I've stated before, imagine if targons had 10 armor and 10 cdr tacked on. Tank supports would be flooding bot lane right? Thats exactly what is happening, 400g extra on an item so that class is flooding bot.
: No. Enchanter nerfs. Enchanters countered mages prior to the nerfs and tanks countered enchanters.
Pretty sure tanks countered mages, like they always have. Hard engage lanes have always beat poke combo lanes.
: That and its not frostfang`s fault that ultra long range or aoe spells can apply it safely/reliably, that's the mages fault lol
So what youre saying is, its frostfangs fault because its way easier to proc than the other items. Hitting the enemy to get gold is not difficult. And thats part of the reason why mage supports are here. EVEN IN A VACUUM, without this mage support issue, its amazing to me yall are trying to justify frostfang being twice as good as the other options.
: ... someone who donest understand the issue mages supports aren't an issue because of {{item:3098}} mage supports are an issue because the lack of sightstone and {{item:3312}} after your first back frostfang is 500 gold ( i guess 450 now but w/e) now before we would grab sightstone and then buy complete {{item:3312}} after we finish both of those items ( and t1 boots) we would build AP in our remaining three slots compare that to now we are no longer spending 1350 gold to finish {{item:3312}} because all we are getting is some HP and 1 more ward slot and we arn't spending 800 gold on sightstone... or upgrading that to ruby sightstone for lower active cooldowns and even we we do complete {{item:3092}} eventually it takes up only one item slot so now we have 4 damage slots and are buying damage 2150 gold faster than we used to when we bought sightstone and had 3 damage slots. believe me... my two favorite supports are {{champion:25}} and {{champion:99}} i now sometimes get a {{item:3157}} on morg 10 min and i am even able to activate {{item:2419}} {{item:3098}} isn't "too good".. the issue is we no longer spend any gold to upgrade past it, because they shoved sightstone on it for free and made its upgrade shit; so its more effective to just leave it as it is and build damage. and late game we have an extra item slot
Hmm.. I wonder if frostfang could be whats leading to damage buying supports? if that wasnt the case, we would have a mage and a protective support like Nami or Sona or Alistar partnered with them, but now its not uncommon to see just two mages. Oh wait, it is. Its BECAUSE frostfang is too good were not seeing other supports. You don't think the other support items got the free treatment as well? They are free to build other items. Janna is free to start building ardent and redemption sooner, tanks are free to build partner items sooner. etc.
Rioter Comments
: Yeah. I've never been a huge fan. But I think the present situation gives us a good opportunity to really look at it in-depth. Mage supports are legit out of control atm.
Mage supports are able to succeed solely because of this item. If it did not give extra damage and have 120% stat efficiency, mages would end up pushed out. If it shared the same stat efficiency as the others (70-80%) then you wouldn't see more than brand and morgana bot lane. Mages typically have lower base damage early game---oh this item covers that with damage per spell hit Mages typically use a lot of mana---oh this item has 50% base mana regen on it Mages typically want to spam spells more----oh this item has 10% cdr on it Cant forget the scaling too! Mages need AP-----oh this item has that too. To put in perspective: {{item:4302}} would need 10% cdr and 10 armor for it to have the same gold stats as {{item:3098}}. Hell swap that CDR for another 12 armor and surprise! Tank supports are broken!
: Spellthief's Edge isn't healthy or necessary in League of Legends
Honestly surprised its taking people this long to see why mage supports are broken {{item:3098}} Ive been saying for seasons on end, that 22 gp 10 (highest the game has ever seen), extra burst damage, on top of a 120% gold efficient item with all desireable stats has been busted but people thought "oh janna builds coin so its not busted right?" Literally no active bot laners but rekan and thresh build anything other than frostfang. Its written on the item. "This item does everything you want it to, has the best gp10 in league history and gives you more stats in gold than you purchased" Even when gp10 was meta, Philo stone, heart of gold and gp10 runes still wouldnt add up to 22gp10, and thats in a meta where you had to BUY wards.
: > [{quoted}](name=Raymønd Åmantius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PBJugZhd,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-04T16:27:08.437+0000) > > Jax is busted. > Yi, however, is fine. > LIterally just draft ANY point and click cc and wait until he uses q. He'lll be 100% dead. > Can't anyone understand this? Yi press Q all CC dodged and outplayed. Pentakill. Jax? He stayes alive for little longer with ult and then dies.
Lol that is some irrational butthurt if ive ever seen it.
Sasogwa (EUW)
: I'm at a point I wish you could ban a keystone or an item instead of a champion
Riven mains have consistently made top challenger for seasons and seasons on end even when she was 'unplayable' but yeah its conqueror right? cant be the champions abusing it. This is the type of bandaid shit that let ezreal come back time and time again. Nerfing the wand instead of the catalyst.
GigglesO (NA)
: "Bruisers" {{champion:11}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:23}} are the 3 biggest abusers of it. All 3 are in the class of melee carries, aka not bruiser. I will give you this one for free {{champion:24}} He is an inteded target, but it again makes him too strong.
And two of those are cancer design in themself. Tryndamere not so much, but he could use a rework to remove just pure stat check. Yi already has true damage on hit and yasuo already has like 40% armor pen, conq just makes it worse.
floo (EUW)
: Totally uninteractive is wrong. Face with the vital spot towards a wall and Fiora has no passive for the fight. It's a stretch, but more counterplay than some other champions have.
Oh please, thats IF theres a wall around and IF its on the right side. And even then fiora can still worm her way in there with her Q. Its so much of a stretch its not worth mentioning
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: Now, that's really unfair and honestly, a dumb argument to make. CertailyT's champions/reworks seem to irk people on sheer "overloaded" factor and fallback mechanics that counter counterplay itself and yet, Zyra doesn't even fulfill these two categories! All she has is poke and damage - she's still a mage even you want to consider her as a support. You focus her and she has nothing to fall back to except to hope that she can rotate her entire skillset and get a kill in return, otherwise she's dead. Extremely immobile, squishy champion with no escapes, dashes, blinks, stealths or defensive abilities whatsoever.
Thats because hes not the sole designer. He was a codesign.
Febos (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VWuzNBo6,comment-id=000100000004,timestamp=2019-01-02T15:01:34.587+0000) > > Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason) False. Ranged champions can use Conqueror too. What they can't do is refresh the buff duration. Read the description of the keystone. Thanks for incorrecting me.
Name a single ranged champion that uses conqueror other than {{champion:119}} because he doesnt have a keystone. You can't because there are none. Conqueror was made to be garbage on range champs specifically.
Arakadia (NA)
: How are you not rewarded if you deny her a vital? You deny her huge amounts of damage and healing until a new one spawns (which won't happen in a fight or if she is ulting you can deny her the mega heal).
When the timer runs out on a vital, youre rewarded with.....a better vital for her to hit. Not even a cooldown for an opportunity attack.
: Yes, but how is she a problem with Conqueror specifically. Not saying she isn't a problem in her own way, but how does she make conqueror more problematic with how her kit already is?
People refer to bruisers being too cancer because of conqueror, when in reality its just a couple bruisers need put in their place.
: Skillshots have always been a balance factor wtf? Of course you can make an op skillshot, I didn't say that a skillshot couldn't be op, just that it can't be compared 1:1 with a non-skillshot. What, you think Annie Q should have the exact same range and stun duration as brand Q?
Effective range of skillshots dies down the farther the end. So not only would brand and annie q be hit around the same range every time (because its way more likely hes going to E first for the typical EQW combo, which hey hes in the same range as annie Q now) the stun duration actually is the same (Annie is less early, more later, so lets just call it the same) So you actually disproved your own point with your own example. Great job!
: I agree that Pyke is a pain in the ass, but one huge factor that I haven't seen mentioned once in this thread is that Pyke's ult, unlike the other listed, is a _skillshot_. Regardless of how easy/hard you think it is to dodge, it completely changes a skill for it to be able to be put on cooldown with 0 effect. Additionally, Pyke is a support, and (goldsharing execute or not) is generally expected to be sitting on less gold at any given point in the game than Darius or Cho'gath - his ratio is expected to work off of less money, and his base damages to hold up more on their own than theirs are.
Skillshots have never been a balance factor. If a 1 use ability that travelled 1 unit per second that did 1 million true damage, BUT IS A SKILLSHOT ITS BALANCED as if theres no way to prevent missing or dodging, and as if those methods didnt exist on the same fucking kit (a 90% slow and a stun)
Terozu (NA)
: They very regularly do display this information...
Not really, they only do it when they use anecdotal evidence to push a motive they want. Hence "low elo vietnam"
: Fiora's kit in general with all the true damage and the vital mechanic is what makes her weak and strong. Had they taken the time to remove the mechanic for something healthier, she'd probably see better days.
I totally agree, the minigame is totally uninteractable on the victim end (no reward for not letting her hit it, in fact in some ways its a punishment), and max health true damage is cancer in general.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VWuzNBo6,comment-id=000100000004,timestamp=2019-01-02T15:01:34.587+0000) > > Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason) > > I like that bruisers are strong, its just some problem champs in particular making things shit {{champion:39}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}} how is camille a problem champ?? i mean she doesn't even take conqueror, she usually takes pta, her kits overloaded but she's practically forced into the jungle
Overstatted champs with 1600 range dashes will always be a problem
Febos (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VWuzNBo6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-02T06:41:17.758+0000) > > You know marksman have an item that does the same thing as conqueror right? {{item:3031}} - Costs 3400 G - Only works with critical strikes - Converts 10% of critical strike damage to true damage Conqueror: - Costs 1 keystone slot - Works with any type of damage - Converts 20% of the damage to true damage Calling them "equal" is a big strech. IE and Conqueror are not all at equal. But there's more: - With IE you actually need to itemize for critical strikes. If you want 100% uptime of your IE value, then you'd need 50% base critical strike chance. You're looking at 3 items worth of gold, not just IE cost. - IE **only** works with on-hit effects, ie basic attacks, unlike Conqueror. - IE has "infinite" uptime if you have 100% critical strike chance. Conqueror can get there too, theoretically, as long as you keep attacking your target and assuming you're melee. - Champions that take Conqueror are usually buying more defense than offense, or a mix of both, meaning they're more durable than the champions buying IE. In other words, you can build more tanky and deal almost has much damage as someone with IE. - Conqueror can be stacked while fighting minions and monsters. It also only need 4 seconds to be fully stacked and "out of combat" only kicks in after 5 seconds. In other words, you can hit a minion and walk up to your target. By the time you reach them it will be fully stacked. *** I'm not taking sides on Conqueror balancing. I'm just explaining why saying Conqueror is the same as IE is a big overlook.
Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason) I like that bruisers are strong, its just some problem champs in particular making things shit {{champion:39}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}}
Terozu (NA)
: This is specifically why they have curve data and player rank specific data, they do check those good players compared to the bad players, they survey for frustration. Quite literally their statistics tell the vast majority of the story and the only things missing can be equated to the exact length of a minor characters 2,085th hair follicle in a series like the Elder Scrolls.
Maybe if riot were likely to release their data instead of keeping it behind doors id be more likely to believe.
: Okay but there is no fucking way Pyke already has {{item:3302}} {{item:1036}} {{item:1036}} {{item:3134}} at level 6.
Then increase his level to like level 8 and he has more damage from base ratio. Point still stands.
: Here's the problem with your argument. You are taking his ult modifications out of context, and only in a stock view of level 6. Here's how that same number comparison looks at level 16: Old: 655+ (60 BAD) New: 550+ 80% BAD + 1.5 per Lethality. The Base damage has lost 105. The scaling is up and might compensate for some of it, but in reality...... there aren't many games where Pyke will reach a full build, and unless you are full build and full AD, the New actually has a lower HP threshold as it levels up. ---------------------------------- You're also completely ignoring the fact this is a champ who was reworked to be worthless mobility-wise UNLESS he build Lethality ONLY. He was changed from tank viable to Lethality exclusive. And, anyone whose played Pyke knows..... his Agency and Survivability as full Lethality is extremely questionable at all elos where people know what they are doing. You can CC him for a short duration and pop him like a grape atm. His early game Ult buff is a direct tradeoff for the fact he lost SIZEABLE survivability.
Heres the problem, with an ult that promotes snowballing and an early game meta, it does not matter whether you get to level 16 or not. The game is practically over by level 11. His ult could do literally zero damage at level 12 onward and i'd still be complaining.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeU4hprA,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-12-30T15:42:59.872+0000) > > Darius is balanced around the resetting factor, through stacking and overall bland kit. > > Pyke is not. Pyke just gets that shit for free You do realize..... Darius's Ult resets itself every time it kills something, whether he's stacked or not, and Hemmorhage automatically fully applies to secondary targets...... automatically resetting his ult and giving him access to his full AD buff? He isn't gated from using his reset at all.... except in 1v1 situations where there's no secondary target.... P.S. Pyke doesn't get crap for free. -He has to hit. -He has to not be counterhealed. -He has to have an actively local secondary ready to kill target. -He has to not be vs an Immortal target. -His is gated behind his opponent not being tanky. -His kit itself doesn't do that much damage. -His ult often puts him in a position he cannot get out of, where he instantly dies after. There are a LOT of ways to starve a Pyke.
Darius's kill threshold is *WAY* lower if he has no stacks. Im talking like at max rank 350 damage, versus pykes non stacked 900. He has to hit another target even with his passive buff to get the stacks for increased ult. The time it takes for a darius to kill a full team with his ult is drastically higher than pyke. Pyke gets a load of crap for free. >-He has to hit. -He has to not be counterhealed. -He has to have an actively local secondary ready to kill target. -He has to not be vs an Immortal target. -His is gated behind his opponent not being tanky. -His kit itself doesn't do that much damage. -His ult often puts him in a position he cannot get out of, where he instantly dies after. Practically every one of these are non points that apply to everyone in the game, including darius.
: I demand that Urgot's ult reset on kill! It's only fair! (...but no seriously resets on Ultimates SHOULD NOT BE A THING. Even Darius is pushing it.)
Darius is balanced around the resetting factor, through stacking and overall bland kit. Pyke is not. Pyke just gets that shit for free
: At level 18 assuming 4 items + Whatever Boots: {{item:3401}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3026}} 155 BAD 46 Lethality (with Sudden Impact active) Current: 550 Base 80% BAD + 1.5 per lethality Total: 550 + 124 + 69 = 743 Old: 655 Base 60% BAD Total: 655 + 93 = 748 As the game goes on the new ult will outscale the old ult, but release Pyke ult does the same amount of damage as live Pyke ult at around this time in the game. After doing a lot more math, Pyke's current ult will start off with a pretty decent chunk of extra damage, but as the game goes on his current ult will only do 20 - 40 damage more than his release ult. OP is not taking into consideration the extra base damage that Pyke's ult had on release. Really what these changes have done is made it so Pyke can no longer build tank/bruiser and get a ton of damage off with his ult because of a high base damage and forces him to build damage if he wants his current ult to do comparable damage to his old ult. This makes him a lot less safe and rewards him for going the squishy route. The scaling on his ult could probably be toned down a little bit, but OP is only taking one calculation and blowing this whole thing out of proportion. I agree that he probably does a little too much damage overall, but having a squishy Pyke that does a lot of damage is infinitely better than a tanky Pyke that still does a lot of damage. Anybody that tries to argue that Tank/Bruiser Pyke is good for the game is insane.
anything past level 12 virtually doesnt matter, the snowballing has already happened and at that point its just a broken ult and not a snowballing ult
: Do we actually have all of the information here or is this missing 5 frames?
I feel honored to be this meta'd
Hibeki (NA)
: Why did this xin zhao ult just do 400 damage?
Still unknown, theres a bug with him right now here: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/a89dq2/xin_zhao_bug_number_of_champions_hit_by_ult/ But even then, I was the only target hit so the bug shouldnt be happening there. So theres a bigger bug than just that. Even if the percentage hp damage on me was doubled, It would still have to be true damage for me to take that much. So either Xin Zhao's ult is true damage AND that bug, or its smoething else as well
: no i cant, but at the same time.. you were caught out zero mana and {{champion:34}} missed her Q to save you... so.. were pretty much dead either way
I coul have walked out of that if I had an extra 200 hp, he used flash and his gap closers and anivia put a wall between us when I died.
: Sudden impact plus dh I guess?
You cant see the runes, but he has Phase Rush with gold secondary. No red tree or dark harvest. Even with 100% armor pen, he still did an extra 140 damage.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
TehNACHO (NA)
: I'd throw in Thresh in that mix, given how the Support role has basically evolved since his release to favor more playmakers that can match his once unique generalist playmaking abilities.
: A target being rended twice sounds like a bug. Unless, of course, it's actually an auto and a Q moving at the same time, in which case it's just two things hitting at the same time. "Invisible power" doesn't really apply if it's a bug. Invisible power is power that's intentionally there but isn't really obvious, such as animation cancelling on *most* champions (Riven being the only real exception because it's common knowledge she can do that, and she's been balanced around having it). A bug can have effects *like* invisible power, but if it's not meant to be there in the first place...
: These "game rules" are entirely made up in your head. Yeah, if you're locked in place for something, most games tend to be slightly forgiving if you mess up. Even Dark Souls doesn't kill you in a cutscene. Darius's R fully resetting is a prime example of a mistake **literally every designer makes**. It does not break even any of the made-up rules the boards has become obsessed over, it's just a designer underestimating the power of something. Kalista's rend is something called a "unique mechanic", it's what makes champions not carbon copies of each other. Her hops on passive are literally just "hey you kite better than other champions", and if you're going to tell me that **kiting** is something that breaks game rules...well...I won't even actually know where to go with that, because you'll have said the most absurd thing I'll hear for the rest of this year.
His point is valid, just bad examples. If you throw out a Q on Kalista, and e, it will rend the target twice. Cause why not. Every one of his champs apart from like, Darius and Warwick, have been overloaded with invisible power (no pun intended)
: Udyr and Adaptive Force - One of The Problem of Jungle Phoenix Udyr
I don't see much a problem, Udyr is a huge problem champion in that his base power is disgustingly strong since hes designed around not having an ultimate. In an early and mid game meta, hes one of *the* most reliable and frustrating champs in the game. His consistent damage output is disgusting no matter what he builds. Besides {{item:1402}} {{item:3078}} is huge on pheonix and is still AP on adaptive force. If you want QOL buffs on Udyr, I want to see some nerfs to Tiger and Pheonix first.
: Phoenix scales with AS and AP. It is not a troll build. Phoenix grants waveclear without needing to buy {{item:3077}} or {{item:3025}}. AP also increases Turtle Stance's shield. {{item:2139}} , Red buff, {{item:3100}}, and {{item:3115}} makes him chunk towers incredibly fast. Add in an {{item:3056}} and he can completely backdoor a tower.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5VTATVc,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-12-26T05:19:34.809+0000) > > Honestly? Id gladly take Kassadin, Fizz, and pre rework Nidalee over any of this garbage. Im good enough at the game now where I can easily survive against any of those without feeding. > > {{champion:142}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:157}} tho? Less of a chance. You clearly never played against season 4 {{champion:38}} he was the definition of permabanned because once he hit lvl 6 he was killing everyone without being killable himself. P.S.: you said you would rather take Kassadin over a list of champions that include kassadin. lolwut?
Oh I have, but kassadin back then was permaban status and because of that never played. Back then i could ban shit and NOT worry about leaving some other broken shit open. My list was to show even with 8 bans on each team thered still be broken shit left open
FFrazien (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=FFrazien,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5VTATVc,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-12-25T14:14:47.597+0000) > > Well League back then was a lot more simple, I started playing by end of season 2 and I had most fun in season 3 and 4, but the truth is everything started going downhill at Juggernaut update, later marksman update was a huge fuck up,adc were in a balanced state and they got 4 new items that made them INSANE, the old kog maw W? Yea, but to me honestly what really broke League was the introduction of Lethality, who even wanted it? No one. What did it gave to the game? More damage, more damage and EVEN MORE DAMAGE, because 3 months BEFORE, they reduced all armor on every single tanky item and increased the health. Soon later after lethality Riot started giving a lot more items CDR, CDR makes games a lot shittier, games end faster when you look at it every champion is spamming spells way to fast. Now about the champions, every newer champion TBH just has too overloaded kits, I mean just look at the difference between Zoe 2018 champ and Sydra 2012, both have damage, both have cc and then Zoe has spammable movement speed spell, wtf? Look at the champion like Rakan, double dash, shield and heal and insane R. ??? > But the thing about champions Riot is obsessed with idea that every champion has to have something unique. They don’t! It only makes things harder to balance around other interactions in the game! > > And lastly, the runes reforged was also a big failure, it took them 1 year to put the option to select flat rune stats, regardless of rune trees, i mean why did we have to wait a year? And keystones in general are dumb, why did we even needed them? What was wrong with let’s say a season 3 masteries??? I see comments like “there was no balanced state in League” but in season 3 and beginning of 4 you only had 2 problems: Kassasdin and Fizz, and what do you have today? Start counting
Honestly? Id gladly take Kassadin, Fizz, and pre rework Nidalee over any of this garbage. Im good enough at the game now where I can easily survive against any of those without feeding. {{champion:142}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:157}} tho? Less of a chance.
: I can only hope. Putting an assassin in bot lane was never gonna work out. Especially when his kit is unbelievably overloaded. Lee has a secret passive of being immune to nerfs as he can't see them Zed honestly (I despise him) isn't *that* good. I'd even go to say he is mediocre
: > [{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ekHzEi1r,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-25T12:21:55.957+0000) > > {{champion:18}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:15}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:202}} adcs like these deserve reworks, if all the counterplay to champion is "dont be in the attack range" then their gameplay design sucks balls. > > ADC mains enjoy crying about assassins lacking counterplay, but they're the group which doesn't have any relevant counterplay. {{champion:202}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:67}} all play differently than stuff like {{champion:22}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:18}}. For example: {{champion:202}} has his entire kit based on the number **Four.** It takes four shots to complete his auto attack cycle and get that big burst of damage at the end that increases based on the missing health of the target. His W and E reveal and mark targets for four seconds. His Q bounces four times at the max. His R has four rounds in it, with the fourth doing the most damage. If you hadn't noticed, Jhin _loves_ the number four. Counting to four is one of the biggest parts of his kit, since his Q gets stronger the more enemies it kills, with the highest optimum damage being on the fourth bounce with the grenade. He's not going to play the same as {{champion:22}} {{champion:18}}. Same thing goes for {{champion:67}} {{champion:145}}. Their damage primarily comes from the procs on Caustic Wounds and Silver Bolts, so they both have lower attack range than most ADCs. They make up for this shortcoming with having to make cognitive decisions of either committing to a fight/kill using Kai'Sa's R or Vayne's E to stun the target. But they _absolutely have to get their procs off_ to not fall behind in damage.
except they dont? {{champion:145}} has 525 range andd {{champion:67}} has 550. Thats a whopping 25 and zero below default adc value. The only adc there that you can argue plays differently is jhin. Every other adc is completely auto attack reliant with some safety added on. They all serve the exact same role and the only differentiating factor in which one is played and which isn't is completely number based. The ONLY gripes about ADC's have been either numbers, or escape tools lacking counterplay. NOTHING ELSE.
: I think one of the things he hits but doesn't expand upon is that ADC itemization and gameplay tends to be rather bland unless you're an on-hit/ability spammer. Compare itemization: Mages: Powerful actives (Twin Shadows, Zhonya's, the hextech line) or pretty unique/fun items that can change your playstyle/path (Lichbane, Rylais, Dark Seal/Mejais) Assassins: Again, strong actives (Ghostblade, Shroud) coupled with items that change your style or enhance it (Duskblade, Maw) Supports: lol their itemization is bonkers. Bruisers/Tanks: Bit of overlap here in terms of things they build but while they have probably the least on this list, there are still some fun items to use (Steraks, IBG, Tiamat line) and some passives that offer some unique things. Now what do ADCs have? Basically just...stronger autos. There are some who avoid this (namely Lucian/Ezreal/on-hit champs in general) but those aren't **THAT** much different. The zeal line is the closest thing you get to uniqueness in your adc kit and what does it give you? Just some bonus on your next auto. As another comparison, DOTA has characters who just slap you about with auto-attacks. However, that game has a ton of things to make this more skill-intensive or fun. Manta-style/helm of domination for multiple clones/minion control. Black King Bar for magic defense/popping things to break magic attacks/cc. Items like Orchid or Shadowblade that couple a powerful active with an auto-increasing item. I don't think the crit itemization changes are going to work other than sate ADC players for a bit. Overall you're still going to encounter similar problems in them being just strong on autos. Riot should really look into giving them more to do, be it via items or effects that can even minutely change how you play.
ADC's get universal damage. Tank shredding, mobility, etc. Universal strength is inherit in their kits and the items just expand on that.
: Phreak is hitting all the points for how (specifically crit) ADCs can be fixed
The problem with ADC is that theres way too much power in attack speed items and not enough in just damage itself. Every single attack speed item double or triple dips in auto attack scaling power whereas AD just...has some utility.
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Hibeki

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