: just wanted to give yall some good news.
If that Panth change goes through he is legit going to be busted--and I have been playing him nonstop and love him. I would MUCH rather see a reduction in his ult delay than the crit on his Q tap. I like the full damage to monsters with E though. :D
: You can dash blink out of and not get stun, when pre rework panth w stun even if you dash, blink away. It really hurt him alot against some of the popular rop laners atm, make his ganks weak and hurt him in the damage department if you try to use empowered w.
Oh. :< I haven't even noticed that. It must not have happened to me yet. That does really hurt him.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: pantheon is weak af, I got 1v1ed by the 1-7 darius as a 8-2 pantheon, the problem is pantheon got a new defensive tool while losing damage, thing is he never really did much damage and has close to no utility so he lost the only thing he really did. once you do nothing it doesn't matter how good your defensive tools are. PS: his new ult is a lot fucking worse than the old one tfw you cash in on the downvotes but none of em has any arguments
Your problem was you fought a Darius and that dood's just broken af regardless.
: I mean, he is weak though. The fact you can dash/flash his W is also ridiculous. The fact bruiser build only works (bruiser builds work on everyone who’s garbage, even release Elise) is a testament how gutted his damage is. He lost his lane bully status and got nothing in exchange for late game. I don’t want lane bully Panth back, but I definitely want to do something late game.
I don't think I agree that he lost his lane bully status. :0 Maxing Q and using the thrust puts it on like a 3 second CD and does tons-of-damage™ when empowered. Then once you get your opponent under 25%hp you either kill him with a charged Q or you zone him off the wave. Of course, dealing with ranged champs is a little more difficult now because you don't get a free block to auto attacks every three attacks, but what his E now provides more than makes up for it in all-ins where you can completely negate all their damage if they are a burst-style champ. Gives and takes, I say. He's different for sure, but I think he's just as good/better than before.
Flemman (EUW)
: his W is bugged, they need to fix that first
What's bugged about it? :0
: I mean, most defensive abilities nowadays has one or two of those negatives, not 5. His kit needs a power shift adjustment. Currently the stab is the only thing that does damage on the kit, hands down. The execute blows if something just happens to walk into the thrown spear and be the first target hit. Shit drops 50% of its damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8lMownwT,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-16T14:38:05.245+0000) > > I mean, most defensive abilities nowadays has one or two of those negatives, not 5. His kit needs a power shift adjustment. Currently the stab is the only thing that does damage on the kit, hands down. The execute blows if something just happens to walk into the thrown spear and be the first target hit. Shit drops 50% of its damage. I think the power shift adjustment was to move his old "under 15% hp crit" thing to the new "under 25% hp charged q does way more". But The one thing I'll say is I feel like there is way more delay now on his ult than used to be there. It feels almost impossible to land any damage on anyone with it outside of people being perma CC'd by a teammate, which feels kinda bad. I wouldn't mind just a bit less delay on the cast/arrival of his ult. As for q doing all his damage--I think that's the point. That's how old Panth *mostly* functioned (barring max level E and good items) but all told, his Q used to be about the only thing of his worth damage, and I think they were trying to maintain that sentiment with the rework. I honestly like the new Q and think it's interesting.
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8lMownwT,comment-id=0001000100000001,timestamp=2019-08-16T17:14:50.732+0000) > > Everybody complains about the dumbest of things. Panth's new E is actually pretty awesome and 10X cooler than the old one. i agree his e is good but pantheon has no passive now? is it me or im i the only person seeing this issue here? pantheons old passive was actually pretty good;not as good as his current e but it was good enough. but now he has no passive technically. since its just a description of his enhanced spell mechanic.
I disagree--the empowered abilities are impactful and significant in my opinion, and they would be much too strong if they kept the empowerment mechanic in addition to another passive. His ability to enhance his spells is his passive--MOST other champs with empowered spells have other means to empower them (like Karma's ult, Kai'sa's stat requirements, Syndra max-level spell requirement) but Pantheon and Renekton sacrifice their passive ability to empower their spells under certain conditions they can meet through a resource they always have access to.
: Actually that's a good point. They should have retained his low hp crit passive. I never really found it problematic or unfair as an opponent, just something to be aware of and take into consideration.
I'm pretty sure that same sentiment is supposed to be felt by the new Q thing, where throwing it does bonus damage to people under 25% hp.
iiGazeii (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=LegendmakerGTX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l8pdBU02,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-15T09:19:54.461+0000) > > problem is you can't actually cancel it when activated. Enemy can walk through you and deal way more damage while you're stuck using E, yes it can be use defensive to do good trades but his mana pool is extremely low so don't recommend spamming E at all. You CAN cancel it. Hit the button again to end the ability early. The cooldown is very long, you can't spam it at all. Did you even play the new Pantheon?
: Cursed blade is insanely OP and should be gutted/remove like today.
Agreed, completely. At absolute MINIMUM the thing should not be able to lower a champ's level more than once.
floo (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwAd5T7x,comment-id=00000003000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T20:13:37.201+0000) > > I think there are a lot, but I'll just point out the most egregious kits for escaping/surviving: > > {{champion:103}} = Three dashes. Q gives large movement speed buff. E to hard CC pursuers. > > {{champion:268}} = Very long dash if skilled enough to pull it off. Literally pushes away an entire group of pursuers if desired. Can construct a turret. > > {{champion:141}} = Literally walks through walls; amplified speed/length in Assassin form with heightened CDR. His q-dash is on a very short CD. Not to mention in Rhaast form he gains AoE knockup. Ult makes him untargetable for a free evasion. > > {{champion:7}} = Can double dash on a short CD and return to the point of origin to confound even skilled veteran players. Has a long-range snare. Passive invisibility+clone for tricky escapes. > > {{champion:246}} = I dunno if you've seen this champ but between her W being a short dash, her E being a long dash to a target, and her Q with bush empowerment invisibility, she is absurdly difficult to lock down. And if you do get on her she can just ult you away. > > {{champion:497}} = Free dash, AoE knockup, dash to allies, taunt + movespeed buff—just about all of his abilities are for escaping/surviving. > > {{champion:92}} = Riven requires no explanation > > {{champion:67}} = Condemn + (ult + q) (go watch highlight reels of good Vayne players surviving 1 v 3+ > > Again, I think there are a LOT more champs that fit into the "has as many escape/survive abilities as Pyke" but I will leave you with the definitive worst offender in the game in terms of escaping from anything if played well: > {{summoner:4}} {{champion:91}} {{summoner:4}} {{champion:103}} 3 short range dashes, while mobile, skillshot reliant. Granted she can turn pretty hard if she doesn hit her E. {{champion:268}} Can be blocked by simply standing in his way, also only measure of movement. {{champion:141}} One of the 4 most cancer mobilities imo, however his can be interrupted easily by any dmg or him messing up. {{champion:7}} Probably one of the safest, true. {{champion:246}} Haven't played with or against her enough to tell but her dashes are very short ranged and one requires a target iirc? Could be wrong, doesn't have survivability though. {{champion:497}} His W has a large cd, also locks him down in place shortly. E is short ranged, requires allies nearby. Isn't as slippery by miles. {{champion:92}} Other cancer mobility. Her not having a resource or cds at all, make her very annoying to follow. Would not consider her more safe than Pyke still. {{champion:67}} No. Her Q is a joke of an escape, requires auto to be on short cd which puts her back into a fight. Passive useless in escape as well, R invisibility too. E while good, single targetted. {{champion:91}} Is probably on the same level as Pyke in terms of mobility. Lacks survivability. Now {{champion:555}} . The fact that his E has a follow up stun in delay is one thing that makes him impossible to catch. It doesn't even have a noteworthy cd, and get's him in range to be invis in W. That is also the second part that makes him as slippery. Huge ms steriod combined with stealth. And if that wasn't enough he heals back a great margin of the health he lost in any fight. You can't tell me any champ is safer than Pyke. Too much mobility paired with heavy regen and uncondicional cc. (That doesn't even factor in his R dash which is technically also a way for him to move, but extremly situational to use)
We must have very different interpretations of the term "survivability." If Talon can literally jump over any wall in the game on a 0 second CD, I would consider that incredible survivability, as it allows him to SURVIVE otherwise impossible situations for other champs; I don't see how being able to jump out of harm's reach no matter where he is on the map is not on par with Pyke's survivability. Same goes for Riven: she ultimately has 4 dashes—one of them grants her a shield, one can hop over short walls; none of them require a resource. She also has a brief AoE stun which gives her an opening to start her dash-fest and SURVIVE situations she has no business surviving in. If you don't think Qiyana's bush-empowered Q allows for more absurd survivability than Pyke, then I can only assume you are not viewing each champ's kit and assess their survivability in an objective manner. https://livestream.clips.gg/FrigidDeliciousShrimpTBTacoRight I don't think a Pyke would have survived this. I have responses to all the points you mentioned about the champs I pointed out, but I digress. Having a delayed stun follow up on you after dashing is good for escaping, yes, I agree with that; I do not agree that it is the impossible-to-deal-with mechanic that it's being painted as in this thread. The hitbox is fairly wide, but it's not impossible to sidestep. 15 seconds is a long CD, too; if he uses it to engage, he's pretty much done for if the engage goes poorly. Someone else has already pointed out that, sure, if Pyke gets mondo-fed he can basically own the map, but there's a big handful of other champs like that, too. The trickier a champ is to pin down, the more impossible it feels to deal with one that is fed. The biggest point to take away from this discussion is: **don't play to his strengths**. He's really good at escaping? Don't all-in engage without lots of lockdown and knowledge of your damage. He's really good at engaging if he lands a q? Play cautiously when it's off CD. I have found the most success not necessarily with lock-down champs, but with range and poke + wards. He doesn't want to miss exp, so keep the lane bushes warded and he can't even use his heal. Poke him and his ADC down; I find Karma a particularly good counter due to the high poke as well as the large shields+movespeed to either disengage or deny the ult execute and reset. He doesn't have much HP so even with aftershock he is pretty squishy, especially since he doesn't build resistances to buff that rune anyway. Take advantage of his long cooldowns; if he uses W to engage, he can't use it again for ~12 seconds. Abuse him for using it aggressively after you play safe to avoid being caught by the q. If he uses E to escape, he can't safely get close for another ~15 seconds. Get aggressive in this time—back off when it's back up. This is how all of League of Legends is played—knowledge of champions (both yours and your enemies') and working around cooldowns. Hopefully that helps!
Rioter Comments
: "First off, I'm assuming this post was sparked by your last game" I'm gonna stop you right there, this makes you a hilarious and pretentious jerk. Even if EVEN IF, this sparked his inspiration for this post, it's actually the final straw that broke the camels back and not "the only reason he would want a champions nerf!" I personally believe that Riven needs to have several power shifts and a mechanic removal, but it's not because I lost a game last night, but because I've played against her 200 times in the last season. sooooooo. Btw, your post is a joke, your _points_ about Pyke are flat-out wrong. >> He's way too safe for a assassin >No, he's not. Yes he is. He has a substantial amount of CC and mobility along with an "I don't want to lose this fight" button. Which as an assassin I would argue is disgusting and entirely too safe. >>a stun-dash with a fucked hitbox >His E much like his Q, W, and ultimate, is very telegraphed and can be dodged with ease. The hitbox isn't that bad. The hitbox on his E is a good 25% wider than his model on both sides, and yes it can be dodged like all skillshots, but unless you burn flash or a substantial mobility ability he should hit you with it. (provided he isn't just stupid) >>instant health regen, >Doesn't activate while in vision, meaning a few wards will shut his regeneration down entirely. You do understand his W right? Most of the time he even doesn't need to engage with his W thanks to {{item:3117}} {{item:3142}} or even just land his Q. >If you can't consistently lock Pyke down with hard CC, poke his ADC. Don't poke him. Not a lot of bottom lanes have consistent enough CC to lock down pyke, dunno which meta you're in atm. And if you attempt to poke his ADC he will focus you down instead, he is and assassin first and foremost regardless of his support role. HE fucking hurts. >His hook only flings you behind him if you're at point blank distance. His Q has a slow on it to allow followup through his E and Ultimate. The slow is handholdy which is counter intuitive for a "_high skill assassin_." It's not defend-able and half decent E timing removes the need for help with setting it up, as such, handholdy. I just... what the hell is this last portion here? I UGH WELL SEE YOU CAN INVALIDATE THIS EXECUTE!!! JUST NUMBERS COUNTER IT. Are you serious? Like really serious? What a joke man. Again, you are playing against other human beings here, so 90% of those champion interactions are meaningless. Finally you mentioned a total of what, 3 ADCs?, and half a dozen supports, half of which are just heal slaves. (Imagine if he went after and killed the healing support first or waited until they pop their shield and kill the other. hmm that'd be a shame.) You're arguing a terrible point and pretty everything you said was worthless and either falls into the "duh" or the "useless information" categories. Let's not do this again, thanks.
> [{quoted}](name=LatetotheRace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwAd5T7x,comment-id=00000007,timestamp=2019-07-23T18:42:10.304+0000) > Not a lot of bottom lanes have consistent enough CC to lock down pyke Uh {{champion:12}} what {{champion:3}} did {{champion:40}} I {{champion:89}} just {{champion:117}} read {{champion:99}} with {{champion:497}} my {{champion:44}} own {{champion:9}} eyes.
floo (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Vıvıd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwAd5T7x,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2019-07-23T18:55:00.615+0000) > > did you... really just say pyke is the SAFEST champion in the game? hes the safest? the most, safe, unrisky, extremely easy to play safe champion in the entire game? no fucking way, how delusional are people in your elo? W-WHAT Which other champ has as many escape and survive mechanics as Pyke? Also I spoke of safest, not easiest to play. Calling me delusional while listing any champ in the game with a dash to prove Pyke's ult is easy to dodge. And fucking Bard ult...
> [{quoted}](name=floo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwAd5T7x,comment-id=0000000300000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T19:35:13.160+0000) > > Which other champ has as many escape and survive mechanics as Pyke? Also I spoke of safest, not easiest to play. I think there are a lot, but I'll just point out the most egregious kits for escaping/surviving: {{champion:103}} = Three dashes. Q gives large movement speed buff. E to hard CC pursuers. {{champion:268}} = Very long dash if skilled enough to pull it off. Literally pushes away an entire group of pursuers if desired. Can construct a turret. {{champion:141}} = Literally walks through walls; amplified speed/length in Assassin form with heightened CDR. His q-dash is on a very short CD. Not to mention in Rhaast form he gains AoE knockup. Ult makes him untargetable for a free evasion. {{champion:7}} = Can double dash on a short CD and return to the point of origin to confound even skilled veteran players. Has a long-range snare. Passive invisibility+clone for tricky escapes. {{champion:246}} = I dunno if you've seen this champ but between her W being a short dash, her E being a long dash to a target, and her Q with bush empowerment invisibility, she is absurdly difficult to lock down. And if you do get on her she can just ult you away. {{champion:497}} = Free dash, AoE knockup, dash to allies, taunt + movespeed buff—just about all of his abilities are for escaping/surviving. {{champion:92}} = Riven requires no explanation {{champion:67}} = Condemn + (ult + q) (go watch highlight reels of good Vayne players surviving 1 v 3+ Again, I think there are a LOT more champs that fit into the "has as many escape/survive abilities as Pyke" but I will leave you with the definitive worst offender in the game in terms of escaping from anything if played well: {{summoner:4}} {{champion:91}} {{summoner:4}}
Antenora (EUW)
: I also strongly believe that Katarina did not need that Grievous Wounds on steroids buff. It should have gone to a champion who is actually underwhelming such as Varus.
Varus already has AoE healing redux on his E.
Rioter Comments
: There was a time, long ago, when people could recognize bleeding obvious sarcasm without /s
Unfortunately we now live in a world where people may unironically say something like that and mean it.
: I think the biggest problem is item rng. Having one player simply get more than another independent of what the players do but just because rng dictated it is by definition bad design. Also. while the carousel is a good implementation to the autochess mold, it's very clunky and you can't see any of your stuff but since this is just beta, I assume it will be upgraded in the future.
100% agree that item (amount) RNG is the most frustrating aspect of the RNG. Everyone should be able to receive the same AMOUNT of items, and how you use the items you find with the champions you roll should dictate victory, rather than whether you were able to solidify two completed items by round 1 or not.
macspam (NA)
: it's more like Swain E, except faster and with a larger hitbox
Morde's E is definitely AoE like Darius's, and Swain's doesn't pull. It's more visually like Swain's, but it's more functionally like Darius's.
giantZorg (EUW)
: An analysis on the question whether Riot buffs champions which get a new skin
I think that this effort is wonderful, and the detail to each aspect of the study is meticulous: the only thing I would like to see included in the study is a breakdown of this correlation specifically with buffs and nerfs, whereas your study focuses on any changes at all. Still, fantastic work!
DeusVult (NA)
: Riot, do not make me individually have to forge 10 BE at the end of the event for all my shards
: Fixed it
I don't know what everyone's so butt-hurt about when it comes to pluralizing the word "game" in their company name. These guys release a new game every year. :^]
Kei143 (NA)
: Why was the faction quiz so hidden in the client?
Completely agree here—I had already selected my house when a friend of mine asked "is that the one you got on the test?" I was like, "what test? ._." Never even saw it, and I did quite a bit of looking around before I selected my house.
Rioter Comments
: Thanks, but the maximum number of games to get 500 reports is not a finite number of games :P
Yeah that's only true assuming you get reported at least once in every single game. It's entirely possible he played games where he did not get reported, making the logic faulty.
Yara0 (NA)
: Actually i do only flame inters and im still suspended for it atm lol. As for not blaming myself you don't even know the start of it. I literally only flame once i cant find anyway to blame myself and even then i try to just push it to the side yet i still flame every 50 or so games. But yes go nuts assume who i am what i look like and how i play if it makes you feel good about yourself i could care less what you think of me cause trust me what i think of myself is ten times worse then what anyone could ever say about me. {{sticker:katarina-love}}
That's good--flaming is definitely against the Summoner's Code. That means the system is working. :D It really doesn't matter whether someone is actually inting or just having a poor game--you can't personally know one way or the other, and flaming isn't helpful in either case.
Rioter Comments
: I won and kinda carried with her, BUT I HAVE YET TO REACH LEVEL 16 LOL Or see her reach level 16.. starting to think it's impossible!
I hit level 16 in a game last night and got a pentakill.
Hilsun (NA)
: Consensus: New W/Passive Mostly Sucks
It's funny seeing the difference between the general league forum and the ViMains reddit page--here I'm at -1 and there I'm at +10. It's almost like people who main Vi know the champion better... ::thinking::
Rioter Comments
: I like that Vi can be built many different ways, and depending on how you build her, different abilities are used in different situations. It's what makes her one of my favourite champs.
The real problem isn't that she can be built many different ways--it's that the niches are stretched so thin that none of them are particularly viable to a reasonable degree. They are cheesey and fun, sure, but they aren't objectively good. That's more my point.
Rioter Comments
: Most times I see Vi max W second, going QWE. Ranking up E doesn't give as much damage as ranking up W, and the extra attack speed for clearing certain camps (especially dragons) is very nice. Just for numbers sake, a rank in E is +20 damage, while a rank in W is +1.5% max HP per 3 attacks. At 1333 HP on a single enemy, one combo will deal the same amount of damage, and only gets stronger the more HP they have. A rank in W also increases the mana cost by 6, which isn't that great.
You don't level E second for the bonus damage, you do it for the significantly reduced cooldown so you can auto-reset more often. It's what I've been doing every game with her for years. The only time I W max second is when I'm up against a team of 2-3 tanks and prefer the bonus %hp sustained damage.
: Did Vayne sell enough Firecracker Skins yet?
I don't understand why they can't just change the true damage to physical damage to make it so building armor would at least require her to build last whisper. % max HP true damage is such an absurd mechanic to include in the game.
: Current Stormrazor will never work no matter how you buff it
I think I need to actually play with it a bit more before I can have a real opinion on it. I did try it one game, but it felt a bit underwhelming; even though we won and I did well, I think I would have been able to carry more easily if I'd built something else. I also synergized the effect with Fleet Footwork--have you thought about how the Fleet Footwork energizing passive would tie into all your ideas?
: Or, Sugar Rush is turning out to be more popular because it's a more unique theme for Tristana. She's already got a spacey, sci-fi skin in Rocket Girl, two if you could Omega Squad, and then she's already got tons of edgy skins like Guerilla and Buccaneer. That's not even counting the fact that Demon is associated with the Halloween skins (of which she has Bewitching) and making Tristana shoot fire is nothing new, as she already does that in Dragon Trainer. So overall, the most unique concept is Sugar Rush, which is a unique aesthetic to Tristana that has the most potential for more diverse particles we haven't seen yet, as well as overloading us with a sickeningly cute version of Tristana that only Earnest Elf brushes up against. That, and it would also align her with Lulu and Poppy, who also have candy themed skins.
This was actually quite literally my exact line of thinking when I voted for Sugar Rush. :>
Ultimargo (EUW)
: Turret platings gold disgusts me (subjective review)
100% agree. I've made a similar post elsewhere: defense of plates needs to be significantly higher, and/or gold output needs to be reduced. Shit's way too snowbally.
: This is exactly what im talking about, why would it be impossible to do? The number is already calculated in the system when you do the damage or use an ability, just let us see it so we can plan our engages better.
Well I now understand--after some unnecessarily complicated digging/conversing--that the bonus magic damage works differently than just dealing flat bonus magic damage based on the damage of your abilities--it is essentially flat damage that is first mitigated by armor, and then also mitigated by MR. In another example from my discussion with Vyniadus, I pointed out that it IS technically possible to show a flat number; the trouble is accurately explaining in a concise way that the shown number is first mitigated by armor, and then by MR, because most damage in this game isn't affected by both armor and MR. Is there an easy, simple way to denote that information? I'm not sure. Essentially it works like this: the bonus magic damage is calculated by how much damage your attacks/abilities **actually do**, which means that number will be affected by armor; however, that resulting bonus magic damage number will THEN be affected by MR. For example: Max level W deals 270 physical damage without bonuses, so you would expect the max-level Shadow Assassin passive to add +119 magic damage. However, against someone with 100 armor (50% resist) Your level 5 W will only deal 135 damage, so it won't deal 135 + 119, even though 119 is 44% of 270. Instead, the bonus magic damage dealt is only 59 (44% of 135). This 59 magic damage is then subject to magic resistance, so against someone with 100 armor and also 100 MR, that's another 50% resistance, making the final number for the bonus magic damage a mere 29 (50% of 59). In the end, I do think there is still benefit to seeing the flat bonus damage (119 in my example) even if it's going to be reduced by armor, and then MR. I don't suppose it would be too difficult to say: "Shadow Assassin: Deal an additional (+119) damage, reduced first by armor and then by magic resist."
Vyniadus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T18:23:58.537+0000) > > Ok. So where does it say that? That's kind of OP's point, and the longer this conversation continues, the stronger his point becomes--the Shadow Assassin passive is unclear. > > [It's called Appeal to Authority](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority). > > Not everyone is a diamond tier Kayn player with hundreds of games played and an intuitive sense of how much damage you'll be doing. "Because I understand it, it doesn't need to be made clearer for anyone" is not an effective argument toward someone stating that they don't understand it and who is almost guaranteed to be a less experienced Kayn player than you. > > If anything, your vast experience with Kayn does the opposite in this instance: it eliminates you from having an unbiased opinion on matters of clarity, because you have put in a ton of time and experience with it to understand how it works. But it shouldn't require diamond-level Kayn players to understand the passive, _**and that's the point.**_ What do you mean "where does it say that"? The wording of Shadow Kayn's passive makes it very clear that it's reduced by both armor and magic resistance. "For the first 3 seconds of champion combat, deal X percent of all damage dealt to champions as bonus magic damage". "X percent of all damage dealt to champions" is clearly reduced by armor, similar to how the Darkin's passive of "Heal for X percent of spell damage dealt to champions" is also reduced by armor. Since the passive deals bonus magic damage and not bonus true damage, it is further reduced by magic resistance. The length of this conversation proves nothing except your lack of common sense. I'm literally just going to quote the page you linked to make the point I was going to make anyways: "Be very careful not to confuse "deferring to an authority on the issue" with the appeal to authority fallacy. Remember, a fallacy is an error in reasoning. Dismissing the council of legitimate experts and authorities turns good skepticism into denialism. The appeal to authority is a fallacy in argumentation, but deferring to an authority is a reliable heuristic that we all use virtually every day on issues of relatively little importance. There is always a chance that any authority can be wrong, that’s why the critical thinker accepts facts provisionally. It is not at all unreasonable (or an error in reasoning) to accept information as provisionally true by credible authorities. Of course, the reasonableness is moderated by the claim being made (i.e., how extraordinary, how important) and the authority (how credible, how relevant to the claim)." I'm not just saying my authority on the topic and nothing else, that would be a fallacy. I'm also giving reasons for my claim. But you're right, it shouldn't take a Diamond Kayn main to understand how the Assassin passive works. Good thing it doesn't, since I've understood how it works ever since the champion was released. This was when I was still gold, and Kayn was the main reason I was motivated to get to Diamond.
The only time Appeal to Authority is NOT a fallacy is when your expertise actually has a bearing on the topic at hand speaking with individuals who make counter-claims with none of the required experience to understand the topic. As you duly noted for me, you understood how the passive worked before you got to Diamond, therefore agreeing with me that stating your ranked status _is a moot point._ The topic at hand is "passive description clarity," which is something that should be understood immediately by anyone reading it with a basic familiarity of League of Legends, regardless of rank. Your ability to personally comprehend information does not suggest the information was presented optimally. If people are having trouble understanding (which this whole thread is evidence of) then the description could be revised, or information could be added to provide further clarity. To my (limited) knowledge, there are not a lot of similar, pre-mitigation effects in LoL, so expecting every LoL player to understand 1) pre-mitigation language and 2) how exactly that mechanic functions is hopeful at best, or ignorant at worst. What your argument essentially boils down to is: "there's no need to clarify because I personally understand it." What's the point of posting at all to a thread where someone says "I don't understand" if all you're adding to the conversation is "well you _should_ understand"? That's not a rhetorical question.
SS1986 (NA)
: This is on the pbe
At least he needs to stack fury first. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Vyniadus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T17:09:53.391+0000) > > Well if it's post-mitigation damage, then yes, that's true! That would make the number calcs as complicated as the Rhaast healing. But I can't find anywhere that specifies it's "pre-mitigation"; is that just implied by "percentage of all damage dealt to champions"? At that point it's an interpretation issue, and I suppose that's where the clarity of its functionality is lacking. :0 > > However...could the bonus damage then not be denoted as magic damage that is mitigated by armor? It technically could be denoted as a flat number, it's just magic damage mitigated by armor rather than by MR. Using your example: W's base damage is 270, so the bonus magic damage if dealt unmitigated is 119.34. Therefore, the bonus damage lines up perfectly with your example, because against an enemy with 100 armor (50% damage reduction) the bonus magic damage would be 59. And against someone with 200 armor--you guessed it--it'd be 40 again if you take the flat number (119.34) and divide by 3 for the 66.66% reduction. > > So even if the tooltip said "Shadow Assassin: Gains (+119) magic damage against champions, affected by armor" I would STILL prefer that over not saying anything. > > You lost me there. Your point is better made if you stick with the facts (pre-mitigated damage isn't flat damage) rather than fallacies (I'm a high-ELO player therefore I know everything). Oh my god stop embarrassing yourself. Shadow Kayn's passive is reduced by both armor AND magic resistance. When I said Kayn's passive would give you 59 or 40 bonus damage, that's before taking magic resistance into account. Even if Kayn's passive was reduced by only armor or magic resist and not both, I would still be against the completely unnecessary change you're proposing. Completely pointless clutter, knowing the percent damage boost is good enough on its own. How is it a fallacy to bring up the fact that I have way more authority than you on this subject? Once you get 830k+ mastery points on Kayn, maybe I'll give your opinion more weight.
> [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T17:48:32.664+0000) > >Shadow Kayn's passive is reduced by both armor AND magic resistance. Ok. So where does it say that? That's kind of OP's point, and the longer this conversation continues, the stronger his point becomes--the Shadow Assassin passive is unclear. > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T17:48:32.664+0000) > > How is it a fallacy to bring up the fact that I have way more authority than you on this subject? Once you get 830k+ mastery points on Kayn, maybe I'll give your opinion more weight. [It's called Appeal to Authority](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority). Not everyone is a diamond tier Kayn player with hundreds of games played and an intuitive sense of how much damage you'll be doing. "Because I understand it, it doesn't need to be made clearer for anyone" is not an effective argument toward someone stating that they don't understand it and who is almost guaranteed to be a less experienced Kayn player than you. If anything, your vast experience with Kayn does the opposite in this instance: it eliminates you from having an unbiased opinion on matters of clarity, because you have put in a ton of time and experience with it to understand how it works. But it shouldn't require diamond-level Kayn players to understand the passive, _**and that's the point.**_
Vyniadus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-02-27T16:17:05.515+0000) > > I already addressed this above. > > Essentially: the bonus damage starts out as a flat amount, and that amount is helpful to know. The damage isn't a flat amount, as I already told you it's based on POST MITIGATION damage. Imagine a level 18 Shadow Kayn with no items. His w will do 135 physical damage to a target with 100 armor, and 90 damage to a target with 200 armor. Therefore, his passive will give 59 bonus magic damage against the 100 armor target and 40 bonus magic damage to the 200 armor target. Why are you even trying to argue with a Diamond Kayn OTP? If I say Shadow Kayn's passive doesn't need more clarity, then it doesn't.
Well if it's post-mitigation damage, then yes, that's true! That would make the number calcs as complicated as the Rhaast healing. But I can't find anywhere that specifies it's "pre-mitigation"; is that just implied by "percentage of all damage dealt to champions"? At that point it's an interpretation issue, and I suppose that's where the clarity of its functionality is lacking. :0 However...could the bonus damage then not be denoted as magic damage that is mitigated by armor? It technically could be denoted as a flat number, it's just magic damage mitigated by armor rather than by MR. Using your example: W's base damage is 270, so the bonus magic damage if dealt unmitigated is 119.34. Therefore, the bonus damage lines up perfectly with your example, because against an enemy with 100 armor (50% damage reduction) the bonus magic damage would be 59. And against someone with 200 armor--you guessed it--it'd be 40 again if you take the flat number (119.34) and divide by 3 for the 66.66% reduction. So even if the tooltip said "Shadow Assassin: Gains (+119) magic damage against champions, affected by armor" I would STILL prefer that over not saying anything. > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T16:39:18.940+0000) > > Why are you even trying to argue with a Diamond Kayn OTP? If I say Shadow Kayn's passive doesn't need more clarity, then it doesn't. You lost me there. Your point is better made if you stick with the facts (pre-mitigated damage isn't flat damage) rather than fallacies (I'm a high-ELO player therefore I know everything).
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: No, *you* have an upvote!
Vyniadus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-27T14:17:50.146+0000) > > I agree with this, for the most part. I think it would be helpful to have a real-time number appear for each ability to demonstrate how much bonus magic damage our skills will do if we're in Assassin form. That way we're more easily able to clearly understand our damage potential. It could look like: > > Q: "Both the dash and strike deal 140 (+65) physical damage. > > Shadow Assassin: Deals (66) bonus magic damage." > > That's all it would need. Another problem with this that I forgot to mention is that the bonus damage Kayn's passive deals isn't constant like you make it seem. It's based on post-mitigation damage, so the amount of bonus damage you get from Kayn's passive depends on how much armor your target has.
I already addressed this above. > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T16:10:12.762+0000) >And while magic resist will cause this number to fluctuate, not providing the base numbers for this damage because of MR variability is about as reasonable as not providing the base numbers of any other abilities. Just because it's not true damage doesn't mean the numbers aren't helpful to know your champion's capabilities. Essentially: the bonus damage starts out as a flat amount, and that amount is helpful to know.
Vyniadus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T14:09:07.131+0000) > > The passive does make sense--that doesn't mean it's not lacking clarity. I understand OP just fine. How is it lacking clarity? It's written fine as is. Besides, it's not like he's offering a better way to write it. How do you understand the OP just fine when he's saying things like this: "The Passive should show the amount of damage Kayn will for the first 3 seconds" (It does?) "Where is this number being pulled from? if it exists we should be able to see what that number is so we can accurately assess our current strength." (Wdym where it's pulled from, it's based on his level? You ARE able to see what number it is.)
You're able to see what the percentage is, but I imagine OP is looking for a specific number per skill/attack. I don't see why it would be so confusing/difficult to add a tooltip in each skill to denote the amount of bonus magic damage each one is capable of based on the % denoted in the passive. You can include auto-attack bonus damage in the passive itself.
Vyniadus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-27T14:17:50.146+0000) > > I agree with this, for the most part. I think it would be helpful to have a real-time number appear for each ability to demonstrate how much bonus magic damage our skills will do if we're in Assassin form. That way we're more easily able to clearly understand our damage potential. It could look like: > > Q: "Both the dash and strike deal 140 (+65) physical damage. > > Shadow Assassin: Deals (66) bonus magic damage." > > That's all it would need. No, this change would only make Shadow assassin Kayn's passive MORE confusing. First of all, you can't just put "Deals X bonus magic damage" on all of Kayn's abilities because it is only against champions and only for the first few seconds of combat. If you just added this while keeping Kayn's passive the same, it would make it seem like that the passive and this bonus damage on abilities are different things. It's not like you can remove the shadow assassin's passive either, because it's supposed to also buff auto attacks and you need it in order to keep track of when it's back up. Imagine if you put "Heals for X% of damage dealt to champions" on all of Rhaast's abilities. Completely redundant and unnecessary, right? There is absolutely no need to change shadow Kayn's passive.
> [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-02-27T14:36:57.537+0000) > >Imagine if you put "Heals for X% of damage dealt to champions" on all of Rhaast's abilities. Completely redundant and unnecessary, right? You're right, I completely agree--adding healing information to Rhast's abilities would be clunky and confusing, considering his heals aren't flat heals and are, rather, based on the damage he deals to enemies/monsters, which will differ vastly based on armor numbers etc. Totally unworkable. Shadow Assassin's passive is not like that--it's a flat magic damage amount based on a varying percentage of your damage based on level. And while magic resist will cause this number to fluctuate, not providing the base numbers for this damage because of MR variability is about as reasonable as not providing the base numbers of any other abilities. Just because it's not true damage doesn't mean the numbers aren't helpful to know your champion's capabilities. > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-02-27T14:36:57.537+0000) >There is absolutely no need to change shadow Kayn's passive. No one's asking to change the passive. We're just asking for a display to be included to show how much bonus damage we're doing. :V
: Kayn Shadow Assassin Change
I agree with this, for the most part. I think it would be helpful to have a real-time number appear for each ability to demonstrate how much bonus magic damage our skills will do if we're in Assassin form. That way we're more easily able to clearly understand our damage potential. It could look like: Q: "Both the dash and strike deal 140 (+65) physical damage. Shadow Assassin: Deals (66) bonus magic damage." That's all it would need.
Vyniadus (NA)
: The shadow assassin passive makes perfect sense. Your post, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense.
> [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-27T13:47:33.705+0000) > > The shadow assassin passive makes perfect sense. Your post, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense. The passive does make sense--that doesn't mean it's not lacking clarity. I understand OP just fine.
: > [{quoted}](name=MrHaZeYo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UAmlvTFW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-27T12:19:56.915+0000) > > {{champion:236}} Plus {{champion:21}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:104}}
> [{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UAmlvTFW,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T12:21:49.685+0000) > > Plus {{champion:21}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:104}} The specific "gunslinger" archetype this guy is referring to is likely best associated with Lucian, who is about as gunslingery as they get.
: League is toxic because you can't vent any frustration in any form
There is a huge difference between expressing frustration and being toxic. If you actually believe that "half of being competitive is talking shit" then you're part of the problem tbh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Hilsun

Level 138 (NA)
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