: What keeps you coming back to League?
I kinda stopped coming back. I used to play League a couple games a day for years. Started at the end of season 1 when a bunch of my friends were playing it. Around season 3 my friends all dropped it, but I stuck around because it was fun learning new tricks and mastering my handful of favorites. New skins were coming out and even putting up with the constant changes wasn't bad because it kept things fresh and (almost) nothing impacted my ability to have fun with the champs I liked. I even stuck around through all of my favorite champions being relaunched - Karma, Evelynn, Katarina, Fiora, and now Akali. But it does really suck to feel like all the mastery you've earned over literal years of effort have been pointless because the champion is changed and gone forever. There's not even some kind of legacy server to play the older versions. It's how it has to be with competitive games like this. But that's really the only thing that sapped the fun out of League for me over the years. Then Fate/Grand Order got an English release and I've hardly played in the last year. My friends play it too and we're on a Discord group so we can coordinate for events and stuff. The community is a lot of fun, probably only because there is no PvP so everyone is really chill. And there is a ton of cooperation with server-wide events we all help each other out with. None of my friends will play League anymore so having that community made it hard to come back to League. Now I only sign in once every couple months because I still don't want to have my account deleted (I did spend quite a bit of money for skins back in the day). I just played an ARAM game for the first time in months. It was pretty fun, but it just didn't suck me in like it used to. I'd still like to come back and play more regularly but honestly I'm not even sure what Riot could do to make that happen. So I'll keep checking the Boards and Reddit every now and then and maybe someday I'll see something that makes me want to come back.
: Once you *actually* play support and pick a support playstyle that suits you then you will find it tons of fun. I really enjoy hypercarry style thresh, messing with the enemy jungler when they do their first buff, and rushing mobility boots to roam a lot.
Sadly, this isn't true. Not everyone will find support fun just by the nature of it. I actually do like support when I get a play-maker support like Blitzcrank that makes me feel like I'm actually doing something useful. But there will always be games where my teammates are getting rocked and there's nothing I can do to help turn it around because I have no damage. Playing a damage dealer will just always be more appealing for some players since it offers them more agency over the things that actually matter - killing the other team dead and damaging their towers.
: I want a support who talks down to his/her adc. A support that is some form of military commander who is essentially trying to grab the ADC by the scruff of their neck and shove them into the fray. "FOCUS." "If I'm being hit, you're free to attack so FIRE." "WAKE UP. You're needed." "I am your shield so focus on doing damage!" etc. We don't really have a traditional support who is brutal and aggravated.
We shall call him Sgt. Salt and he will be voiced by R. Lee Ermey. [ADC misses last-hit] "You call that farming, maggot?!"
: > [{quoted}](name=Cowseed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oE2E0uuY,comment-id=000500020002,timestamp=2017-07-06T22:34:09.376+0000) > > Because you can QW into the face. > > In what world would a competent fiora player waste her parry to shave off a little attack speed?! This one. That's how many, many Fiora players use it. You're often not going to get to riposte a stun against good opponents, so just use it for the slows and to block burst.
Also against Attack Speed carries it's pretty much Fiora's only way to win. They can just auto-attack Fiora to death in seconds and without the AS slow all Riposte would do is root Fiora for 0.75 seconds while the AS carry waits to keep auto-attacking her to death. The entire point of the AS slow being there is because it's Fiora's only real defense so it needs to work on both ability-heavy champs and auto-attack champs.
Arakadia (NA)
: Sort of. I would still say dodging Fiora W isn't all too impossible. Its got super clear sfx and vfx, its delayed, is telegraphed, and its a skill shot. I don't think you can ask for anything else for counterplay against ranged abilities. Generally speaking.
It also roots Fiora in place for the duration of the animation, so she can't even try to re-position herself to land it if you move. Not sure it's possible to have more counter-play without just making the missile speed slow as molasses.
: 50% win rate but is capable of snowballing out of control, can easily 1v3 or 1v4 by bursting everything in front of her, i would of thought she had atleast a 59% win rate as i have never won a single game with her on the enemy team. She does way to much damage and can lifesteal sustain way to much.
Yeah, Fiora's been ~50% win rate for ages despite her high play rate. I tend to win when the enemy team picks Fiora so I don't really think her damage is insanely high or anything, it's just that she can snowball and any champ that snowballs usually wins. I can't say she does "way too much damage" because Marksmen exist and that entire class deals at least as much damage if not more and can do so from the safety of 550+ units away. Her healing off of Vitals really isn't that impressive. The base 30 HP heal is okay at Lv. 1 but all it really does is help heal off the minion agro she is forced to take if she does anything. The real problem early game is how frequently her Vitals are up. I've said for a while that when one is popped or reset (due to distance from Fiora) it should stay down for a bit early game to give her opponent room to breathe, then scale down per level so she can chain them properly later in the game when she really needs it. That and nerf Lifesteal across the board for all champions in the game - it's flat out ridiculous right now and is most of the reason Fiora is obnoxious.
: Thinking of startin a "How to Beat" series for frustrating champions.
How to lane against Darius as a melee champ would be nice. Especially for the ones that actually use mana and can't just farm with abilities indefinitely.
: Crit runes are shit. No Infinity Edge makes it even more shitty. You're correct, but not what I meant.
{{champion:18}} : {{item:3006}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3153}} Pretty sure this will get you damn close when you use Q.
: I ask myself this every day. I'm fine with her having a good-decent early game as long as her late game isn't so absurd. We all know that champions who are horrid early and insane late are terrible design and not fun (Vayne). Here's an idea: Passive - AD ratio lowered to 3% per 100 AD from 4.5% per 100 AD. Heal gains 10% bonus AD ratio. W - No longer slows attack speed. Basically she loses some late game burst, early game auto winning, for some decent healing which you can buy Executioner's into. Basically less bullshit, but not nerfed into the ground or anything.
Fiora is a Skirmisher, a class designed to be late-game carries. Fiora's core fantasy of "1v1 me scrub" also suggests a powerful late-game. Riot isn't going to have Fiora fall off like Pantheon because that's not her identity at all. Instead, it would be much better to tone down her early game. Passive - Lowering Fiora's AD ratio here is a bad idea. Tanky Fiora is far worse than what we have now, and this is one of her main AD ratios that lets her scale. *How about removing the base 2% and making it just the bonus AD ratio? Then it does piddly extra damage early game but still scales well?* W - Possibly hit the Attack Speed slow, but I think she actually needs it for a lot of match-ups like Jax and Xin Zhao. *Maybe increase the mana cost so she has to save it for clutch moments?* E - I think increasing the mana cost on this even more could be a good idea. *Fiora's trades aren't that good if she doesn't follow up with her E, so making it cost more can limit how much she can trade (with Q > Vital > E) vs. just poking (Q > Vital) and lower her overall damage in lane.*
Joxcab (NA)
: Because spellvamp was a pure stat not limited like Death's Dance is against AoE, where most of the physical damage abilities you would even want to heal off are almost all AoE. IDK about Elixir. 15% effectiveness for spellvamp on AOE would make it complete garbage. I get lifesteal might feel bad to play against, but they still heal back in segments. Take the Ryze rework for example with spellvamp ultimate. He'd activate it and murder just about everyone around him while simultaneously healing almost his entire health pool in each mini-rotation of resets because of his burst, but even more so because of the fact he could reset most of his burst and then do it again. In particular, mage abilities individually all hit far harder than any one ADC autoattack lategame. That's the main problem. An ADC's lifesteal is split up over their individual autoattacks. An ADC might heal let's say, around 160-200 health an auto lategame (assuming around 20-20+% lifesteal with 800 damage autos). Let's take… Annie for example. With ult up lategame and around 800 AP, she can drop 2710 damage near instantly against just one squishy. If her W or R hits more, that number skyrockets even higher. In teamfight settings, her W can easily hit 2-3 people, and her ultimate can hit all 5 without too much difficulty. Let's say it's 2 tanks, 3 squishies. Fairly standard. The W would probably hit the two frontline tanks + a squishy. That's another 941 damage to the two tanks to add to the 2710 total. I'm placing tanks at 150 MR, Annie has Void Staff. The R would also hit the other 2 squishies + 2 tanks. That's another 1840 for the 2 squishies and then around 931 damage to the two tanks. 2710+941+1840+931=6422 magic damage dealt through resists and all. 20% spellvamp of that is almost 1285 health healed. In a split second. On a champion who would probably have no more than around 1900-2000 health maximum lategame, just slightly more than an ADC most likely. 1285/1950 is almost 66% health healed almost instantaneously. 180/1800 is about 9-10% health healed against a squishy target per auto. You're not going to get off more than around 2 autos in the amount of time Annie could nuke a team. That's the problem. Sure, Annie's healing is pretty much limited to Q and W only afterwards each of which can do around 800+ damage similar to an ADC but with a lot longer cooldown. But between the AoE burst damage and her massive instantaneous heal without even counting the CC versus healing broken up into segments that can be stopped to stop said healing flow, which seems like the bigger problem to you? You're going to have a hard time even damaging Annie before she jumps in with her AoE team nuke. Any potential damage you would have done would also be instantly erased afterwards. Far less time to react to mage dropping entire rotation in a split second versus an ADC who continuously heals up over time in small segments. Phantom Dancer and DD on ADCs are problems sure. But that's next to irrelevant to the health gain from damage issue itself. They would be problems regardless with their power. You can't really stop a mage from just blasting an entire team with everything lategame instantly outside of flanking and gibbing them before they do it, because they'll stay at a safe long range. CCing the mage after is basically pointless. If you CC the ADC though who has to actively keep attacking over time for their heal, their healing flow which is a lot slower but potentially longer gets cut off right then and there. If it weren't for Death's Dance and PD being stupid broken right now, that'd be the end of it. Bye ADC, understand? TL;DR - lifesteal exists while spellvamp doesn't because there's more potential counterplay than with spellvamp, and PD/DD are the issues making lifesteal even stronger, not lifesteal in of itself
So it's bad for Mages to get a small burst of healing off of spells that have mana costs and cooldowns, but it's perfect for Marksmen to get small bursts of healing *every second from no-cost, no-cooldown auto-attacks*? Have you ever played this game before? Every ADC in the game heals their full health bar from just ~4 auto-attacks against minions/jungle camps by mid-game. The amount of healing granted by lifesteal is anything but small and isn't gated by anything like cost or cooldown. Even without Phantom Dancer and Death's Dance, lifesteal would still be a huge issue. It's been an issue since before DD existed and before PD had it's % damage reduction. Those items are just making things worse than they already were. ***If anything, Death's Dance is the best designed lifesteal item in the game since the healing exists to heal off the bleed and would be perfectly manageable on it's own. It's the other lifesteal items that are the problem.***
Vallalan (NA)
: it lasts 1.5 seconds. that is really not that long. if you had high attack speed you are gonna miss two to three extra autos at most. which is a fair amount. but the duration of the attack speed slow is minimal. thats why its as strong as it is. 50% is insane, but for only 1.5 seconds it not as bad as it sounds. the real issue with fiora is not an overloaded kit but she scales too hard and does not have a weak enough lane to justify. she has a weak lane, but not vayne status which is what she should be. she scales like vayne but isn't as weak early. i think they need to take off some of her scaling or just gut her early and make her trash in lane.
I think nerfing Fiora's laning would be much better than nerfing her scaling - her fantasy is the "Grand Duelist" so having a powerful late-game seems required. The Attack Speed slow doesn't last long, but I'm pretty sure it's also only applied by the blue projectile part. While it comes in handy at times (like if an enemy jumps into your face and can't dodge the slow) I feel like removing it still wouldn't be too bad for nerfing her lane phase. Maybe we can try just lowering it first to see if it has a bigger impact than expected. Other than that, maybe we could just reduce Fiora's health per level? Black Cleaver got a health increase that makes Fiora rather tanky, especially when she can get Maw and/or Guardian Angel. The fact that Cleaver is Fiora's best rush item just means she gets harder to bully and punish for her hit-n-run style pokes. I don't see Cleaver ever not being a great first item for Fiora due to her kit letting her stack it quickly (same as Riven, even though both are supposed to be glass cannons and Cleaver is a Juggernaut/Tank item) so maybe lowering her health to make up for her rushing a high health item would be warranted?
iSeaSalt (EUW)
: i've always been scared about assasins as a support main. their burst damage skyrockets, like literally! UNTIL, i started to play lulu and was able to polymorph the shit out of 'em. god bless me :)
Lulu makes me so sad whenever I see her on the enemy team :(
: You said that low elo players have hard time landing skill shots or whatever.yasuo has one of the skinniest skill shots in the game... sooooo
In general, yes, but not every single low elo player. There are plenty of mastery 7 Yasuo players even down here in low elo that actually know how to play Yasuo properly. They tend to be low elo for other reasons - like tilting off the face of the Earth when a teammate loses lane. The fact that ~~good~~ mechanically-competent Yasuos exist down here makes it even more important to ban him every game.
: You can't counter build her is a problem. You can't outtank her and you can't outdamage her. She will always stat check you. Also the reseting of vitals means it forces either side to lose CS and XP, which isn't healthy. W lets her win trades regardless of it's cooldown. Attack speed slow is insanely broken. Wow, another broken champion beats another broken champion. Shocker.
Riot intentionally gave Fiora % Max HP True Damage so she could be defeat *just* by counter-building her. If you think this is wrong then convince them, not me. I already think her mini-game vitals are dumb. I know this is not popular and expected the downvotes, but it's the cold hard truth. ***Riot does not want you to just build armor and call it a day. They want you to mitigate her damage through decisions in combat, not decisions in the shop.*** If you think Fiora's vitals don't offer sufficient gameplay, then great. Ask for some mechanic tweak that will let players play around Fiora better. Just complaining that you can't counter-build Fiora is pointless since Riot doesn't want you to - the only signal you are sending them is "working as intended". ***My suggestion is to greatly increase how long it takes the next vital to appear after she procs on in the early game. I've been saying that it will give her opponent's breathing room in lane.***
: uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, melee autos are def weaker but melee champ kits are usualy stronger, Like trynda ult on an adc would be fuckking insane but on trynda he is just trynda, and difrent stats are optimized for different things, auto attack speed, attack damage, crit, and armor pen, and lethality are not all the same stat even tho they accomplish the same thing because each is optimized for a playstyle then balanced based off that. like kha zix cant use crit as well as a jinx and a jinx cant use lethality as well as a kha zix, Learn how balance works and how ranged and melee champs work before pretending you know anything. And if your argument of ranged with the same items as melee will always win then take an assassin or a bruiser with the same amount of gold as an adc and put them in a 1v1, if they are of equal mechanical skill then the assassin or bruiser will usually win. Please before posting more things please judge a champions kit and effectiveness off of more than their autoattack.
I'm sorry (not really) but Tryndamere's ult on *Tryndamere* is fking insane. The fact that he needs it to even exist in the same game as Marksmen is already completely bonkers. Do you want to know why an Assassin can *ever* beat a Marksman in a duel? *It's because Riot gave them gap closers and lots of front-loaded damage*. And once Riot started back-loading Assassin damage, Assassins started kinda sucking. Because even with all of their extra base stats, overloaded kits, and outplay mechanics they still can't beat the sheer advantage of ranged auto-attacks. Because resourceless, no cooldown, targeted abilities that can scale harder than a Mage's spells and can be spammed up to 2.5 times per second are utterly bonkers without mechanics to limit their use. Mechanics that other, similar games all have for a very good reason. League is based on DOTA, which was a mod for Warcraft 3, which is an RTS game. The mechanics which Marksmen use are the same ones that RTS games have been using for range siege weapons since the 90's...except Riot removed the safety-valve mechanics like turn-speed and never added anything to replace them. Originally, this still somewhat worked since Marksmen were weak early games and existed as late-game damage dealers which left melee champions to be powerful early game champions that could be used for team comps focused on winning before the enemy Marksman revved up. Now Marksmen are powerful even in the early game which upsets the loose balance between ranged and melee champions in the laning phase and mid-game (which was already held together by scotch tape and prayers). Please learn your game history and design before criticizing others on their understanding of balance.
AmazoX (EUW)
: That is true but it won't change the fact that Fiora is a overall better champion. Pantheon also counters Yasuo, But would it change the fact that Yasuo is a overall better champion? :)
Fiora is good -> Fiora gets picked a lot -> People pick Pantheon to counter Fiora -> Lots of people have to play against Pantheon even if they aren't playing Fiora -> People remember Pantheon's own BS laning phase It's a simple process really
korg023 (EUNE)
: I have 2 rune pages for ad and ap , how am i supposed to just "grab" her by the armor rune page then?
This is why having more than 2 rune pages is important. It's necessary to have extra rune pages for niche things like spec'ing into armor runes to not die in lane. It's a horrible IP sink and why Riot is changing the rune/mastery system (again) so we'll see what options you have in the future. For now, buy extra rune pages or lose.
: > Months went by, no one complained about her. No one said anything, all of a sudden everyone is bitching Question mark? What? People have been complaining. I've been waiting almost a year for her to get nerfed. > her stats are meh, she has counter play, people are just complaining to complain. She's held top 4 playrate top lane for 6 months now, and is currently the highest playrate for 6 PATCHES NOW. Her ban rate has skyrocketed to 45%. In high diamond, she's often double banned, banned, or picked, if not every game. Also what counterplay? What is the counterplay to Fiora? Stand near a wall? and while you spend time moving, she kept attacking. Oh, and she can hit her ult vitals even if you try to block with a wall. CC? Parried. You can't counterbuild her because she outscales in damage, sustain, and negates tank stats.
Of course you can't counter-build Fiora. That's the point. You can't just grab a Chain Vest and ignore her. That's exactly what used to happen to old Fiora and part of the reason she was in need of a rework in the first place - literally anybody (even Riven) could just come back to lane with a Chain Vest and Fiora was neutered. So Riot stamped that out with her new passive. Is it a bit much? Probably, but it at least forces Fiora to interact within melee range to do anything and requires her to build damage to actually get effective use out of it. It's not like Fiora's a Juggernaut building Cleaver into a full tank build like Darius. Fiora does have counter-play, but it could definitely use some improvement. When a Vital mark is in a really bad spot for you, you are supposed to back off and reset the mark. Fiora's Q is very short range so you usually have time to react when a Vital does appear in a bad spot. And since you know which direction Fiora needs to come from you know where all of your damage needs to go when she jumps in. Please remember Fiora's W has a long cooldown early game. Like 30 seconds. If your only CC is on a 30 second cooldown then you already goofed. Once she uses it, harass her as much as you can for the next 30 seconds. Or wait for your CC ability to come back up then all-in her...because now her W is down and she can't stop you a second time. Also learn to play this guy and ruin her day: {{champion:80}}
: Twitch: Statistically broken (high winrate and playrate), previous nerfs were mana nerfs which doesn't reduce problems. Fiora: High winrate, highest playrate, and high banrate. Been top 4 playrate top laners for 6 months now and has always been an issue. Zac: Too much CC, damage nerfs don't reduce CC. 112% banrate in Korea. Caitlyn: High winrate, pickrate, banrate. Been a problem for 6 months now or more. Death's Dance: Has increases Riven and Draven to high winrates, pickrates, and banrates.
Fiora has a huge play-rate and ban-rate, but her win-rate is strictly okay at best. She's been averaging a 50-51% win rate for months and months. That does not suggest she is winning too many games - just that she is in too many of them. But even with that play-rate she's clearly not giving her team too much of an advantage or else she would have a much higher win-rate. Fiora's not broken, she's just obnoxious if she can spam her Vitals in lane phase. Light nerfs might be fine but she's hardly a huge balance problem Riot needs to hit immediately. https://na.op.gg/champion/fiora/statistics/top
: Yeah, they have to get sorcerers and rush morellos every game. It is totally unfair to expect them to change up their builds. /s
Of course, because every knows that mages have the most viable armor options of any class and don't have any resources such as mana to worry about. I'm surprised mage players haven't figured out that rushing Ninja Tabi and Randuin's gives them all of the stats they need to be relevant after level 3. It's not like mages need to get Morello's/Rod of Ages because their abilities have actual costs and cannot be used at all if they run out of this resource. And they certainly don't need one of the only sources of Magic Penetration in the game to keep up with everyone (even ranged ADCs) having scaling Magic Resistance now. And it's pretty core for mages to have lackluster ratios since they aren't designed to be building AP anyway. Yep, those mages players sure are dumb. But I'm just a filthy assassin main so I might be wrong about this.
: Yasuo isn't that hard of a champion to play against honestly. There are many more methods of dealing with him now than there was a long time ago. you can ruin his late game lifesteal with executioners calling, hurt his attack speed and crit damage with randuins. The hardest thing to do when playing against a yasuo is predicting where his E will take him after he uses it in a minion wave. Once you are able to predict that then yasuo lanes become really easy. I encourage you to learn this
But what about all the games where I'm not the one laning against him? Sure, I can not feed in lane as long as I play smart. But if I am support can I really trust my mid/top to not feed him? Because I don't want to play against a fed Yasuo as a support. Very few ADCs and Supports have much power over Yasuo if his laner feeds him. It is just better to ban him and not deal with it.
: To help you notice more and believe others that Yasuo mains aren't bad people. I i am a friendly Yasuo Main with a thresh and Azir main background. I'm currently mastery6 and I have a 56%WR on Yasuo and have a 75%WR in ranked. Saying all that info to show you I'm both good on him and nice at the same time. Hope this becomes your beacon of light that shows you not all Yasuos are dark horrendously toxic 12 year olds Lol
That's cool. I don't really care about win rates or mastery though (but every Yasuo I ever see is mastery 7 for some reason and sure loves to spam their mastery emote). And I know it's not toxic 12 year olds playing Yasuo. But goddamn, it'd be nice for even one of you nice Yasuo players to actually be in one of my games for once. I don't know what it is about him that causes so many players to become jerks when playing him. Part of the reason I permaban him is because I just can't ever have fun in any game with a Yasuo in it. But may the Gods of matchmaking bless you and let you actually play the champion you like (unless it's one of my games in which case he'll still be permabanned).
: If it helps, they were probably one mistake away from tilting/raging anyways. At least you learned about it when you still had the opportunity to dodge.
Honestly, the shift to 10 bans has a lot of players tilted from the start. I'm trying to be understanding, because a lot of people are having a hard time playing what they want now that it's easier to ban stuff. But if just baffles me when people act surprised that Yasuo got banned and throw a fit.
: Yasuo has a 5% banrate If you're talking about Jax, he has a 0.35% banrate. Source: champion.gg
https://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ Yasuo has a 54.92% ban rate. The only champions more banned than Yasuo are Fizz and Zac. Even Riot has commented on Yasuo being permabanned and they announced they are doing a light mechanical rework to reduce his frustration factor just so people can actually play him in lower elo.
: YES YOU CAN this just empowers my vision on how low elo has little knowledge about him yasuo E will make him dashing THROUGH a target if the target is close, and his E range is 475, his Q radius is 300 Other dashes will stop once reaching the target, however yasuo performs a 475 range dash no matter what if you walk toward him during his dash, he will dash through you, his Q radius won't match the dash and he won't hit you with Q
Problem: There is a reason low elo players are low elo: We kinda suck. We're inconsistent with landing abilities and just don't know every single match up backwards and forwards the way high elo players do. Sometimes we just make bad calls because we don't know every single nuance of a champion's kit. I know E will dash through the target, but I can't see which minion Yasuo has already dashed through and I don't recall there being any indication of which minion he is dashing to as it happens. Without this knowledge, I have a problem guessing where Yasuo's fixed range dash will carry him so it's hard to figure out strategies like you describe since it feels like suicide to go closer to Yasuo when the last thing I want to be is within melee range of him. Yasuo's rework has nothing to do with his balance. Riot is reworking his abilities to make him a less frustrating champ, which hopefully means making his counterplay more obvious so we can figure it out from playing against him instead of relying on us to find good videos on YouTube. **I personally don't care if Yasuo stays the way he is. I always have a ban now so I can permaban Yasuo from my games.** But a lot of low elo players want to play Yasuo and can't do that if he is always banned. So Riot can either nerf his numbers to shit until he's so terrible that low elo stops banning him (making him literally unplayable for high elo)...or Riot can rework his abilities to be less frustrating and try to give him power in the parts of his kit that don't tilt people.
: https://i.gyazo.com/cc61c82d8bef6784e353ec7d7282bef0.png reworking a balanced champion in the first place is a mistake they never did that before no champion who got reworked was an example of balance unlike yasuo who can be considered about how a melee carry should be unlike feast or famin carries like trynd who splitpush if ending up behind yasuo is being reworked because of 50% ban rate meanwhile lulu and fiora rework? lulu has 50% ban rate since march 2017 to now and nothing was done you seriously think that people like to play against lulu? against a no counterplay laning phase while getting outplayed in teamfight by her buffing her adc+protecting him with point and click buffs? then think again you fool
Riot never reworked a balanced champion before? {{champion:161}}
: Yasuo Players
I've just had a few straight draft games of horribly toxic Yasuo players. I just dodged a game where a player tilted out of control in champ select because I banned Yasuo (because the other team was picking first and Yasuo is picked every game if not banned). He declared he would be reporting me for banning Yasuo and apparently was in a pre-made with my support (I was ADC) and encouraged him to pick a troll support just to punish me for banning Yasuo. And the other team banned Yasuo too anyway. Obviously I dodged because I should not be forced into a 40+ minute prison with such horrible people. Sure, maybe not all Yasuo players are League's worst people. But most of League's worst people are Yasuo players. It sucks for the decent Yasuo players, but a lot of us are aggressive only because we've been tilted by most every Yasuo we see in game.
: Nobody but Zed mains like Zed being strong T_T
If Zed was any better I'd make him my perma-ban instead of Yasuo T_T
Noraver (NA)
: 2013, Hippalus: There will be rewards for people who purchase a lot of RP. Never forget.
I remember when Riot was talking about lifetime RP purchase rewards. Then they scrapped those plans since they didn't want players that didn't buy RP to feel bad for missing out. {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
: My Turn: A Rengar Rework Proposal
I like the amount of thought you clearly put into this, but I would never want these changes to go through. The mechanics alone would make this version of Rengar brokenly overpowered unless his numbers were trash. Passive: * Letting Rengar's leap distance increase by any means will not happen. Riot wants abilities like this to be consistent so players only have to memorize the base range and the enhanced range, not a whole spectrum of possible ranges. This would only increase his frustration factor. * Ferocity stacks not falling off would require nerfs to the damage of Rengar's empowered abilities. They can be strong now because they are not guaranteed. But Rengar is extremely obnoxious top lane where he can camp the bushes and spam his passive leap to land his abilities, and letting him stack up over time to land a guaranteed empowered ability with no risk (since he can now back off after each cast instead of having to all-in or lose his stacks) would be overpowered unless the damage was lowered. Q: * This is just bringing back the old, toxic Rengar. This change lets him leap->auto from brush, instantly Q, then auto again with the reset to one-shot people with no counterplay. This pattern is exactly why Rengar is stuck with his current Q. The attack speed didn't matter since his target was dead anyway. The only way this has counterplay is if you remove the auto-attack reset and give the Q stab an animation that cannot be canceled so that Rengar's opponents have at least a fraction of a second to react. * "Significantly higher damage" on the empowered Q would be just obscene with the other changes. It's damage would have to be severely reduced given the other changes, or else Rengar is back to one-shotting people from bush/stealth only this time his Ferocity stacks don't fall off so it's even more reliable. W: * Please God no. This is just Quinn's Vault but far worse for the opponent. At least Quinn can be targeted the instant she lands to try and prevent her from proc'ing her mark. Giving Rengar an escape is one thing. Giving Rengar an escape that prevents his opponent from using most ranged abilities to try and retaliate or prevent said escape is annoying. Giving Rengar an escape that lets him instantly use his passive leap to score extra targeted (instant, non-avoidable) damage that can then be chained into the auto->Q->auto combo I mentioned above is just not fair. E: * Rengar's Bola needs QoL changes? What's wrong with it? R: * Actually seems interesting and better than what he's had in the past. The only problem is the changes I mentioned above giving him an extremely toxic play pattern outside of his ult. Adding his ult's stealth into the mix would just make him as bad as original Rengar.
: Fiora's vitals are not gauranteed damage, but there is essentially no risk for procing, atleast no risk higher than the inherent risks tied trading. Plus and lets be totally real, fiora doesn't have mana. I know she has a blue bar that says mana, but realistically while playing she won't run out when used with some amount of skill, without even needing to pay the blue bar any mind.
Do you play Fiora? She absolutely uses that mana bar and can definitely run out if she spams too much. Her E especially uses up mana fast if she uses it often which restricts her all-ins while still letting her "poke" with Q onto a Vital. There is also a very real risk for procing those Vitals - doing so puts her in melee range where literally every champion in the game can hit her right back. The small flat heal she gets is barely enough to heal off the minion aggro she takes doing those little jump-ins. Smack her with an auto-attack and throw a skill at her and you can probably at least even things out if not be a little ahead. Going in for Vitals also leaves her vulnerable to ganks and Fiora does not have any good escape (that dash is only like 250 unit range and still has a cooldown even with the partial reset until she starts buying CDR). There have been many, many times that I have gone for a Vital on Fiora and instantly regretted it and many times that I have taken advantage of the enemy Fiora diving onto me. The risk is Fiora's opponent knowing how to play her game and punishing her and it is very real.
: He doesn't spike that hard though at 1. He spikes at 2; {{item:3031}} {{item:3046}}. Yes, it is very high-midgame damage, but that is what makes Yasuo a unique late-game carry. This spike allows him to come online earlier than other late-game carries. I think you might be slightly misinterpreting the intention of the damage reduction. The damage reduction is not included to "prevent them from hyper-carrying every game at the 10 minute mark" (which I have NEVER seen a Yasuo have {{item:3046}} {{item:3031}} finished at 10. MAYBE {{item:3046}} but that's really if he hard rushes it, farms well, and has 4 kills in the first 7 minutes, but anyway), it is to force Yasuo to build more damage to stay relevant late-game, **and he still won't have as high of late-game damage than other late-game carries because of the damage reduction. Never.** Once any late-game ADC has 6 items, they will mathematically always deal more damage than Yasuo. Master Yi and Gangplank will always deal mathematically more damage than Yasuo. The reduction is not included with the **primary** purpose to suppress his 2 item spike (although yes, it indeed does), it is there to encourage Yasuo to build more damage to remain relevant at all late-game. I would very much like your honest opinion about something. By removing or nerfing his critical strike passive, would you rather see him become a bruiser with {{item:3046}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3053}} than keep his current passive and have him build (at MOST defensively) {{item:3046}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3026}} (which leaves his 40+ minute damage sorely lacking) or (at most offensively) {{item:3046}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3033}}? I'm not using this as an argument or anything, I'd like your honest opinion of which you would actually rather be standard? The hard truth is that the first one is what will come about without his crit passive.
I'd prefer a Yasuo that builds something like the third option. But I'd like to see 3 crit items like a lot of ADCs build, or at least a Yasuo that can deal with "only" having 50% crit chance like everyone else. I think Yasuo should still be built around Critical Strike, but I know for a fact that he does not need double Crit Chance to make that happen. Yasuo building {{item:3046}} {{item:3031}} as his first 2 items is fine. But having permanent 240% damage on all of his auto-attacks and Qs that early is not cool. Yasuo's Q being able to Crit is good and his Armor Penetration on his ult only applying to Crits is great. This gives Yasuo some incentive to build Crit builds that leave him squishy enough to actually kill. I think this could be improved by perhaps adding Critical Strike Chance scaling to Yasuo's Q (adjusting ratios as needed). But I really don't like that Yasuo gets a ton of extra gold out of his items that makes his 2 item spike so balls-out insane that he needs permanent % damage reduction to curb it slightly. Yasuo can come back to lane with a {{item:1051}} but have a {{item:1018}} worth of crit. For 400 gold he gets 800 gold worth of stats...of a stat that basically doubles his damage when it applies. Crit is the worst stat in the game for that kind of gold discrepancy to be applied to. Like you said, Yasuo is a late-game carry. He's not meant to fall off. No other late-game carry needs to reduce their own damage on every hit at all times. If Yasuo's mid-game spike was toned down to reasonable levels then we can remove his crit damage reduction and buff him in other ways if he needs it.
: ...I don't understand what you mean? Melee champions can be, and often are, successful in League. It's just that this is only possible by either adding more mechanics and such than a ranged kit would get, or by cranking up numbers. Riot is aware that this is a thing and even calls it "The Irelia Problem" - where a melee top laners need to have basically everything in their kit or else they are completely invalidated by ranged top laners. By designing Irelia to be capable of laning against ranged top laners, she ended up being completely unstoppable against melee top laners. And thus other melee champs have been brought up to her level. Now any melee champ that is even slightly undertuned is completely worthless. Hell, melee champions often end up blatantly overpowered. When your balance strategy amounts to "Fight broken with broken" you tend to overshoot the mark every now and then. But "ADC in 2K17" was never really a thing. Both teams still required at least one Marksman every game, it's just that some melee champs were a little more overtuned than usual for a bit.
"The Irelia Problem" isn't Irelia herself. It's a term Riot sometimes uses for the old way they used to design melee top laners. Irelia was created by that design philosophy and completely dominated. Since then Riot has tried to cut back but the problem isn't solved because if a melee champion isn't "over-designed" they can't lane against ranged champs at all. Yeah, down where I play we never got that Ziggs botlane stuff. I heard about it here in a few posts but never saw it. Also I play normals so people probably just didn't even care.
: You'd have to change everything, not just his shield. You blatantly don't understand high uptime, low cost design and your inane desire to tack resource costs onto Yasuo's kit shows a blatant lack of understanding about how his kit functions.
Let's be real - neither of us are professional game designers. I may not be a specialist in "high uptime, low cost design" but you aren't either. The fact is, Riot has already stated that they are doing a mini-rework to at least one of Yasuo's mechanics to account for his insanely high frustration factor. Yasuo is not fine as he is and Riot is changing him. Obviously my idea was just throwing something out there and not meant to be a silver bullet "I know better than Riot" solution. But you make it sound like it is literally impossible to alter Yasuo's shield in any way and that is just not true. If other aspects of his kit need to be altered, then they will be altered. It's all on Riot whether his passive shield or something else gets changed. You seem heavily invested in Yasuo not having any resource costs. Many players find Yasuo's lack of costs incredibly frustrating since it means he just spams, spams, spams while their kits are restricted. Me personally? I don't care if Riot removes Flow completely and makes Yasuo as resourceless as Riven. Hell, it'd be thematic even since he and Riven are enemies/rivals and Garen and Katarina are also rivals. As long as there is some factor limiting him to give him proper windows of weakness I'll be happy.
: But with Fiora it is a bit different. Most other champions don't stack lifesteal because then they give up on damage. They require armor penetration first before they can think of itemizing for sustain if they want to do any damage to someone that builds armor. With Fiora, this is not a problem because she deals true damage. Add that to the fact that her passive true damage scales insanely well with AD, and the fact that most lifesteal items offer more raw AD than armor penetration items, and you can see why Fiora is allowed to itemize for lifesteal without giving up anything. That said, I agree that lifesteal itemization should be fixed. It is unfair that ADCs get to lifesteal back everything on top of dealing insane amounts of damage with crits. Vayne, in particular, wins any duel because on top of being almost impossible to outplay and having % true damage, she lifesteals everything back. And unlike Fiora, she is ranged.
I was more referring to the fact that Lifesteal items also have the highest AD, so any champ that wants to stack AD ends up with tons of Lifesteal without really meaning to. I'd rather Lifesteal be on low AD items so you had to choose if you wanted higher damage or more sustain. Right now there's no choice at all.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hinagiku33,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6nJsdnG,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-06-13T23:40:10.693+0000) > > ~snip~ Fiora can easily get 12% max health true damage with standard double lifesteal + BC into 2 defensive, actually. It's just that she needs to be in melee range and positioned in a certain direction in order to do so, while Vayne can position wherever she wants.
?? I seem to recall getting around 10% with standard build. It has been a while though. And 3 of her main items got AD buffs, but I didn't think it would be enough to change her Vital percent much. I'll have to play her again and test a bit.
: I think the main problem is that Fiora has way too much sustain. Because she doesn't require armor penetration like other AD champions, she can stack lifesteal items and become unkillable, and she already has sustain in her kit (her ult and her passive). Death's Dance makes the problem worse but she could already stack sustain before. Because she can stack sustain, she can survive to 1x2 and sometimes even 1x3. Yes, you can build items with GW, but Fiora still has way too mcuh sustain.
...But Lifesteal stacking makes *everyone* unbearable. Wouldn't it make more sense to fix Lifesteal itemization first and then see where everyone ends up?
: I agree she's one of the few melee carries that requires skill, early on anyway. She has; nasus' like sustain for popping vitals (and gets a speed steroid for doing so), vayne's silverbolts (also part of her passive which scale off easily accessible AD), renekton's double dash (which becomes spammable if it connects), jax's counterstrike (but applies to any ability including summoner spells), draven's auto-attack speed buff (first hit slows then second hit criticals), and janna's healing (if she kills them). Problem is her kit is overloaded to the point she'll scale incredibility well off most build-paths, and overrun the competition by force.
You're massively over-stating some of those strengths. Nasus has 10/15/20% Lifesteal that applies to each and every one of his auto-attacks, even when he is just farming minions. Fiora's Vitals only apply to champions and is a small, flat heal based on level meaning she has no innate sustain unless she's in melee range of a champion. Vayne's Silver Bolts have a far higher % than Fiora's passive is likely to get. Vayne gets 12% per proc at Rank 5 regardless of her build while Fiora gets 2% base and scales up to 12-14% only if she builds full glass cannon. Vayne is meant to stack attack speed items to proc Silver Bolts faster, rather than stack AD to make Silver Bolts hurt more. Fiora is meant to build AD to make her Vitals hurt more since her kit doesn't rely on attack speed and Riot doesn't want her to build tank. Renekton's double dash is much faster than Fiora's and usually comes with an instant stun. Fiora's dash also goes on long cooldown if she uses it to escape instead of attack. Do I even need to mention that Renekton gets to be much tankier on top of having better lane sustain and not having to worry about mana? Draven's attack speed buff can't even be compared to Fiora's. Draven's can have 40% attack speed for all of his auto-attacks for as long as he can keep catching his axes, with a minimum of 3 seconds. Fiora only gets her attack speed for 2 auto-attacks and exists mostly just to make sure she can actually use her two on-hits because Fiora doesn't really have any other reason to build attack speed, doesn't have great attack speed per level, and needs to stack raw AD to fuel her passive Vitals. Janna's heal is guaranteed as long as she channels and also comes with a wide AoE knockback to help her team sit in it. Fiora's heal is very powerful but also lasts much shorter unless she procs all 4 Vitals from her ultimate so it is usually weaker than Janna's and much less safe to rely on. Fiora is very strong but there is no need to inflate her strengths by comparing individual skills in a vacuum. Anything sounds overpowered or overloaded on paper if you only list strengths.
: > Master Yi can DODGE LITERALLY ANYTHING WITH HIS FULL ON UNTARGETABILITY Q It is impossible to avoid targeted abilities with no travel time like Ignite and fiddle drain and if fiddle has already cast drain Yi has to move out of range with Q for it to break if not it will stay on > GP can CLEANSE LITERALLY ANY CC IN THE GAME WHILE HEALING HIMSELF WITH A FREAKING FRUIT WITH HIS W. Yes and no.... he can cleanse knock ups but he still can't move without using flash so it doesn't help that much.... (Yasuo R and Nami Q are not knock ups they are suspension effects) > Tryndamere LIVES LITERALLY ANYTHING IN THE GAME, EVEN WHILE BEING CC'D BY ANYTHING IN THE GAME. Assuming he has his ult off cooldown (it has a lot longer cooldown compared with basic abilities) and that Tryndamere activates it in time.... too early and he wastes some of the duration and too late he might die to burst
If Fiora parries Ignite it is 100% pure luck. Ignite is instant cast and targeted. It's your fault for clicking Fiora during her parry. Either use it at the start of the fight (literally before anything else so she has no reason to parry) or right after she gets out of her parry animation. Fiddlesticks drain is broken by anything that interrupts channels. GP can cleanse CC after it is applied while Fiora prevents CC from happening. It's no different than throwing out your big knock-up ability at an Olaf and him ulting to become immune during the travel time. It's accounted for in her kit and you need to play around it - fail to do so and you will obviously lose. Please don't defend Tryndamere. His ult is far worse than Fiora's entire kit and is the reason he is being kept intentionally weak until Riot decides what to do for his rework.
: > [{quoted}](name=DeadUnborn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kg8727un,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-06-09T19:14:36.117+0000) > > Would you mind to elaborate on why flow costs would not work, other than saying I am wrong. I'm irritated that I actually have to explain this. Do you understand how Yasuo's flow works? It's generated by moving and does nothing until the bar is full, upon which case the next damage he takes will proc the shield and drain **ALL** of his flow. **All** of it. And he can't control when that flow will be expended since his shield is triggered automatically when he takes damage. Can you understand why tying his ability to a resource he can't control would make the champion unplayable? All it would take to beat Yasuo is to pop his shield whenever it comes up and then kill him effortlessly now that he has no flow and thus can't cast any abilities.
...What if we, oh I don't know...changed how his shield worked too? What you've stated is only a problem *if his shield remains unchanged*. We can change how his shield is generated. Maybe give his shield a normal cooldown then have it be reduced a second for moving X units (possibly as many units as his E moves him so each E shaves a second off his shield cooldown). Poof. No problems with flow costs anymore. If Skirmishers like Fiora and Yi need to use mana, and Tryndamere (the only other manaless Skirmisher) is a massive balance problem, then perhaps Yasuo should be using his flow like a resource to be managed and not just a glorified cooldown for his shield.
: I can accept that some people find it boring, but most people who say it is boring have never tried to properly play it. They either never try it and dodge when they get filled or they play something stupid that doesn't have a very high chance of success. If you are a J4 main and get filled to support and want to PROPERLY play support with the things I mentioned then by all means, play J4 support with shielding items and a sightstone. Don't go into support as a mid main and go full damage with a spellthief's edge and full AP and expect to be productive though.
> [{quoted}](name=AlienPrimate,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGU9BgEu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-10T17:52:38.302+0000) > > I can accept that some people find it boring, but most people who say it is boring have never tried to properly play it. [citation needed] I play Support just fine. I often pick Support intentionally when I'm on a losing streak and really want to just win. I am aware how powerful and influential Supports can be. *But I am also perfectly aware that Support is godawful boring. Literally the most boring thing in this entire game*. This really shouldn't be a surprise though, because utility/supportive roles are almost always the least popular role in every game that has them. Everything the OP mentioned above is incredibly boring. *Turn off auto-attack*. Because we wouldn't want to do something engaging like last-hitting minions for rewards. It's better to just watch the ADC have fun instead. *Get Control Wards*. Because we should use our very limited income on consumable items that will be destroyed within 2 minutes of placing them. It's better than buying items that will be with us all game and make us stronger and better at our jobs. *Get Sightstone*. Because when you do buy items you actually get to keep they should provide almost no stats and have 0 use in battle. *Help your ADC farm*. Because it is your job to ensure that your ADC's playing experience is better than your own. And your ADC will never ever misunderstand what you are doing and flame your for interrupting his farming. *Learn when to fight*. Because you will always have a choice in the matter. Your ADC will never be a hyper-aggro monkey that constantly goes in when you are worthless because your abilities are on cooldown and then flame you for not saving him. *Lane control*. Because your lack of items, levels, and offensive abilities makes you uniquely suited to roaming mid to help your laner while your ADC stays behind to farm. You will never be jumped and murdered by the enemy jungler in 0.01 seconds just because you were alone and in the same area code as an enemy champion. *Look at your minimap*. Because you have so little gameplay to worry about that you can spend much of your time staring at a smaller version of the game you could be playing right now instead of actually playing that game right now. Then you can ping your allies when you finally see something interesting happen. And they will always heed your keen insight and definitely never die to ganks you warned them about or flame you for dying to ganks you did in fact warn them about. *Ration your Relic Shield charges*. Because even though you actually have an item that allows you to justify interacting with minions and gives you desperately needed gold you should hold off on actually doing that thing. But it's okay because your ADC will always let you take the cannon minions and will never flame you for taking them even though they get the same gold and a heal for it. (Truly, Hell is other people) ***The OP's tips are all good. It's not their fault that Support is mind-numbingly boring. And playing Support well doesn't make it more fun...it might even make it less fun since being good at Support is like being good at doing chores.***
: Yi also doesn't build pure tank and get 55 armor/mr from his ult
: > [{quoted}](name=Hinagiku33,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vBn2nxIh,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-08T00:47:02.431+0000) > > I remember when {{champion:38}} {{champion:25}} were the perma-bans and the joke used to be to ban all the purple champs because they were the strongest. Pepperidge farm remembers. Then the third most banned for a time was malphite cause of the horrifying malphite mid picks lmao.
Malphite mid...or risk AP Yi mid? *shudders*
: is it real counterplay though, or is it an illusion? In many cases dodging a skillshot is counterplay Yasuo's q is a skillshot. Dodging All of yasuos q's is not real counterplay. Why is this the case? In many cases dodging the skillshot means that you are eating the enemies resources, or you are lowering their damage threat for a while, and there is also a chance that you just mad them waste their primary engage/peel tool. In yasuo's case dodging any individual skillshot means almost nothing, he isn't losing any resources, his damage output isn't getting lowered, and even when you do manage to dodge the tornardo he can still just build another one in a very short time. Fiora is like the latter, dodging her vitals isn't real counterplay because she doesn't spend anything to use them. whether she hits a vital or not it doesn't matter in the long run to fiora, because she can just try again for free. When you successfully counter someone in any respect the person countered should be in a negative position, rather than you countering someone and only putting them in an even position. The unfortunate thing is that there are a lot of things like that which exist in the game, and it confuses players to what constitutes counterplay and what does not constitute counterplay.
I think Riot was aiming for a more "what needs to happen in the next 3 seconds" type of counter-play. Managing enemy resources is more of a long-term strategical thing rather than a "Fiora looks like she's positioning to Q onto a vital, I should back off" kind of counter-play. Conceptually, Fiora's vitals are not guaranteed damage, require Fiora to put herself at risk to proc them, are generally proc'd by her Q which gives it an indirect mana cost, and are able to be missed or denied. So Riot will give them more power while they would give a safe, long-ranged, targeted spell less power. Regardless, Fiora's minigame is still dumb. I'm not really a fan of Fiora's rework but I do admit she really is healthier than she was before. I wouldn't mind a second pass at Fiora's kit now that Riot seems to have gotten the minigames out of their system.
: You aren't really correct though, because many of the effects and stats on those items were added because the auto attackers couldn't keep up with the melee champs. Like, "ADCIn2k17 lul" was a thing. Which resulted in {{item:3153}} being buffed extremely hard. Tell me, is there even a single melee champ you do not consider overloaded? Because in my eyes overloaded often equals fun, which means more players. The non-overloaded champs usually have the smallest player bases, unless the champ posses a very powerful tool or just potent synergy between abilities in their kits. Even now, the most banned ADC is Xayah sitting at the 12th spot. (OP.GG) All the others ahead of her are melee, except LB at the 8th spot. Meanwhile the most banned melee are kassa, fizz and zed. Followed by Zac and lee sin. You speak like Ranged champs are dominating, but in fact melee are topping the game in terms of banrate which indicated that people don't feel pressured by ranged champs very much. Nope, Assassins and godly tanks like Zac are still ontop, as they have been for ages. But i looked at Lolkings statistics as well. And there Xayah and LB had the 6th and 7th spots in terms of most banned, graves had the 8th. Everyone else in the top 10 were melee. And so wonder, which other games do you write of? And where is the issue? Because league doesn't seem to suffer from any particular ranged vs melee issue since melee are dominating..... If i had to guess id even say the only reasons cait and Ez are so popular among the ADC's is because they are the only two who are truly good at not dying. Which would explain their actually outstanding popularity, even if their ban and winrates aren't terribly impressive.
...I don't understand what you mean? Melee champions can be, and often are, successful in League. It's just that this is only possible by either adding more mechanics and such than a ranged kit would get, or by cranking up numbers. Riot is aware that this is a thing and even calls it "The Irelia Problem" - where a melee top laners need to have basically everything in their kit or else they are completely invalidated by ranged top laners. By designing Irelia to be capable of laning against ranged top laners, she ended up being completely unstoppable against melee top laners. And thus other melee champs have been brought up to her level. Now any melee champ that is even slightly undertuned is completely worthless. Hell, melee champions often end up blatantly overpowered. When your balance strategy amounts to "Fight broken with broken" you tend to overshoot the mark every now and then. But "ADC in 2K17" was never really a thing. Both teams still required at least one Marksman every game, it's just that some melee champs were a little more overtuned than usual for a bit.
: Yasuo doesn't outgun an ADC that has 4-5 items if he has 3 damage items, though. That's the whole point of his reduced crit damage. Yes, he gets to 100% crit much quicker, but those crits will deal less damage than normal. This is where you get to a tricky little part of Yasuo; his power spike. Yasuo is intended to have two strong points; 2 item spike, and late-game. Yasuo's 2 item spike is obviously {{item:3046}} {{item:3031}}, and he is _supposed_ to become a mid-game threat with these two items in his inventory. However, even if he out-damages an ADC in mid-game (which he should because he is a melee skirmisher champion), **he will not out-damage them at full items if he invests in defense beyond these two items**. If he decides to, he can build bulkier items like {{item:3022}} {{item:3053}}, but this cuts his late-game damage down **significantly**, and at that point it's still only health that he gets from those items. Building pure tank items on Yasuo is very detrimental and should only be done in very specific situations, like buying {{item:3143}} to duel {{champion:41}} {{champion:23}}. If you make Yasuo have to buy as much critical strike as ADCs while still being melee (no matter how mobile), people won't do it. You will see builds pop up along the lines of {{item:3046}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3812}}. All damage-centric melee champions **will** build tankier if they can get away with it. By giving Yasuo incentive to buy two crit items to get 100% faster, but having his crits deal less damage so he has to build more damage to **stay** relevant, it leans Yasuo to building maybe 1 defensive item at most, usually {{item:3022}} or {{item:3026}}. And if he builds more defensive items, he will still be a threat, but he will not be as big of a threat to the enemy team as a {{champion:222}} with {{item:3085}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3036}}. This is a video I think you should watch that very well explains why Yasuo is the way he is. It's very insightful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Un6dFhh4M&t=1442s
I also like to watch Trinimmortal. I understand the ideas you are talking about. I just think it is bad game design and makes Yasuo more unhealthy, not less. Ashe's passive is healthy because her damage doesn't spike too quickly but scales very nicely into late game as she keeps building damage. If Ashe comes back to lane with a Zeal she's stronger but not overwhelmingly so. Yasuo's passive is unhealthy because his damage spikes from 0 to God in about 1.5 items. Yasuo comes back to lane with a Zeal and suddenly he has 40% crit chance so he can (nearly) double his damage almost half the time after a single back. It feels unbelievably BS to have a lane go so well and then Yasuo's damage spikes so high after a single item that you can't even trade with him anymore. If Yasuo is going to spike that high that fast, then he needs to fall off late game harder than Pantheon. If Yasuo is going to be a late-game carry, then he needs to not spike so hard early game. **No champion should ever have to have a permanent % reduction to *their own* damage baked into their kit just to prevent them from hyper-carrying every game at the 10 minute mark.**
: Proof. Proof. Proof. See? I can say it too. So what do you actually want proof of? Do you even have a question or are you just being pedantic? It's pretty hard to find you an answer when you don't even have a question.
"Pretty sure" means "I don't work at Riot and do not have access to the game's source code". Allow me to paraphrase my point: *I have been playing this game for a long ass time and I remember all of the bitching about Riven's animation canceling way back in Season 2. Yes, originally it was a glitch. Anyone who believes it is still a bug is a complete idiot because Riot has made it **EXTREMELY** clear that they have officially adopted it into her kit.* Riot has made a few alterations that affected Riven's ability to animation cancel. This has been recorded on the PBE and patch notes. In order for this to be possible, Riot would have to alter Riven's code which would require them to first identify the code that caused the original bug. Since Riot altered the original code and Riven is still able to animation cancel, this means that Riot has to either very careful leave the original code in place and patch around it or else completely re-write it to achieve the same functionality. ***Without access to the original source code from Riven's release and the source code from Riven on the current patch, it is completely impossible to tell which method it was.*** Either way, Riven's animation canceling is currently hard coded into her kit because that is how programming works. I speculate that Riot re-wrote the code because it is industry standard practice to do so (to retain the functionality and enable it to be modified in the future without worrying about breaking other functionality tied to the original bug). As far as I am aware the specific information you are looking for is not available to the public. Riot states in various patch notes that they altered certain animations or made certain bug fixes, but they do not state exactly what they changed. As far as I am aware, Riven's animation canceling changes have mostly been to create consistency and I did not see anything in her patch history to suggest her damage was affected (just how fast she can dish it out). By the way, here's a Riot thread on the PBE Boards talking about Riven's animation canceling changes in Patch 7.10: https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/IYzG01mq-710-riven-changes And please do some research of your own before making personal attacks.
: And why did you randomly assume that Fiora is the new target after Yasuo? Did you just get on the boards or something? People have been complaining about her for a long time. Fiora really is a problem, just not in your opinion.
Considering Fiora's win-rate has been pretty consistently ~51% despite being extremely popular, the data says she really isn't a problem. Is she commonly played? Yes. Is she incredibly annoying for many people? Yes. Is she so powerful that you are at a statistical disadvantage if the enemy picks her? No, not really. Her win-rates are so consistently average that I really doubt Riot will do anything about her any time soon. A light nerf to trim her play rate a bit perhaps, but she hardly needs the gutting some people here are calling for. We all should know by now that the Boards accounts for a very tiny portion of the playerbase, and that just because people complain about something doesn't automatically mean it's OP. So I'm more inclined to think that some people on the Boards just hate Fiora and are being extra loud because she popular right now.
: lower health regen to riven level so her early game is actually abusable, and fiora's need to be careful with their trades
Riot will never do this. Riven's health regen is only that low in the first place because she has a semi-spammable, no-cost shield to block virtually all poke. Any damage that does manage to land is supposed to stick. Fiora's only defensive spell is gated by both decent mana cost and very long cooldown. You should be landing poke on Fiora regularly if you have any kind of ranged damage at all, so Fiora gets normal health regen like other melee top laners.
: Her Q isn't supposed to be mana gated, but rather her E. Hell, the only reason she has mana at all is that being able to spam E off CD would make her too strong a laner; beyond that's she's basically a manaless champion and Riot clearly intended her mana costs to not be much of a barrier unless she spams her E too much.
^ This. Yasuo and Tryndamere are also Skirmishers and are manaless, as are a lot of other melee champions that rely on spamming skills to do anything. Aside from Tanks and Juggernauts, it actually seems almost rare for Riot to release melee champs that actually use mana normally these days. Fiora is supposed to be spamming her Q as long as she is hitting things with it, it's supposed to be gated by cooldown (a really long one if she uses it to run away) rather than mana cost. The intent seems to be to let Fiora jump in to proc vitals and run away as her only means of poke (which still requires her to get in melee range) but restrict her E with mana to limit her ability to fully trade and all-in opponents. I think an early hit to her E's mana cost could work nicely to ease up Fiora's lane pressure without crippling her.
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Hinagiku33

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