: Jhin 4 Infinity Edge working?
It works, but it's a stupid build. Building attack speed on Jhin allows him to get extra movement speed when he crit. On top of that, Attack speed and critical strike increase his attack damage. There is absolutely no reason of not getting Rapidfire canon or any zeal upgrade items.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hochelaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gxet9EMs,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-05T15:12:45.171+0000) > > No he doesn't... I'm saying this because I had a Sylas on my last game. > > http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=mateusz > > He has a shield which is not affected by grievous wound, and 40% cdr which basically would give him healing every 7 seconds It is 380+ 70% ap bty and using that build im going to put Morello as his last item since I could find any games where he got to last item so lets do the math he will 3080 hp so he will have to be at 1232 o get the max heal and it will heal 554 every 7.2 seconds that beings he up to 1786 that is not a lot when he does a ok amount of damage and he going to be right in front of a enemy. Also your wrong Vladimir empowered q heals more then sylas with the most popular Vladimir build it heals 606 and does more damage and is on a 3.5 second cooldown.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gxet9EMs,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-05T15:55:08.892+0000) > > It is 380+ 70% ap bty and using that build im going to put Morello as his last item since I could find any games where he got to last item so lets do the math he will 3080 hp so he will have to be at 1232 o get the max heal and it will heal 554 every 7.2 seconds that beings he up to 1786 that is not a lot when he does a ok amount of damage and he going to be right in front of a enemy. > > Also your wrong Vladimir empowered q heals more then sylas with the most popular Vladimir build it heals 606 and does more damage and is on a 3.5 second cooldown. Vlad's needs to have it ''empowered'' to actually heal that much heal. And no, Sylas didn't do an ''ok'' amount of dmg, he was so fed that he literally could 1vs5 the team. Since he got Spirit Visage and there was an Ekko on the other team, he basically would hea back over half of his health everytime
: And gets absolutely destroyed by one of the mage main items. Healing reduction completely guts him. Plus it has a baseline far longer cooldown than any of the mentioned abilities. He needs it.
> [{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gxet9EMs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-05T15:06:47.945+0000) > > And gets absolutely destroyed by one of the mage main items. Healing reduction completely guts him. Plus it has a baseline far longer cooldown than any of the mentioned abilities. He needs it. No he doesn't... I'm saying this because I had a Sylas on my last game. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=mateusz He has a shield which is not affected by grievous wound, and 40% cdr which basically would give him healing every 7 seconds
Rioter Comments
: What other video games have you played in an extremely overly obessive manner?
I call a game ''obsession'' when I played over 100 hours on it. Here's an incomplete chronological list of games that I was obsessed with - U.N. Squadron on SNES - Super Mario World on SNES - Gran Turismo on PS1 - Pokemon red on Gameboy - Gran Turismo 2 on PS1 - Jetmoto 1 on PS1 -------------------------------------------------------------------- My most obsessed childhood game. I loved the soundtrack and all the races. It was simple and great - Pokemon Silver on Gameboy - Crash Bandicoot 2 Cortex Strikes back on PS1 - Crash Bandicoot 3 Warped on PS1 - Spyro Ripto' rage on PS1 - Jetmoto 2 on PS2 - Crash team racing on PS1 - Crash Bash on PS1 - Tekken 3 on PS1 - Gran Turismo 3 on PS2 - Super Smash bros Melee on Gamecube - GTA Vice city on PS3 - Starcraft brood Wars - Diablo II LOD on PC - Pokemon Ruby on Gameboy Advance - Advance Wars on Gameboy Advance - Megaman 3 battlenetwork on Gameboy advance - Paper Mario Thousand year Door on Gamecube - Soul Calibur III on PS2 - Fire emblem sacred stone on Gameboy advance - DOTA custom games in Warcraft IIII on PC - Gran Turismo 4 on PS2 - Pokemon Pearl on Nintendo DS - Super Smash bros Brawl on Wii - World of Warcraft (Lich king expansion) on PC - Gran Turismo 5 on PS3 - League of legends (season 2--) - Diablo III on PC - Guild Wars II on PC - Gran Turismo 6 on PS3
: The unwritten rule of League of Legends if you're a jungler...
Why are people laughing at Ocean Dragon? It is BY FAR, the most valuable dragon to have in early game.
: Can a support CS when the ADC recalls?
Support don't usually takes creeps for their ADC. But there are some exceptions that support should take creeps and push - If your adc died or is back in town and creeps are pushing your tower. Again, don't just blow your skills and auto attack them or else you'll push the wave. Try to last hit creeps that would die to the tower if you wouldn't do anything. - If both lane is backed and you're the one left. You can hurry up and push the lane or else the ennemy team will just freeze the lane Again, use your judgement to take creeps from your adc if you think that he wouldn't get it anyway. If you see your adc in the river while you are in lane and a wagon creep is on the verge of dying, nothing forbids you to take that creep.
: why is tristana garbage and weak as shit late game?
You know, some Adc are good dueler, others require a team to do well. Jinx, Tristana, Varus, Ashe Sivir are some examples.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hochelaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IkvBlZYH,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-21T16:09:39.442+0000) > > Please take a look at Press the attack : > > Passive: Basic attacks against enemy champions apply stacks for 4 seconds. Attacking a new target removes all stacks from the previous target. Applying 3 stacks to a target deals 40 − 180 (based on level) bonus Attack damage Ability power Adaptive damage and makes them Exposed for 6 seconds, causing them to take 8% − 12% (based on level) increased damage from all subsequent sources (except from true damage). > > Cooldown > 6 seconds > > And then compare it to Electrocute : > > Passive: Basic attacks and abilities generate stacks on enemy champions hit, up to one per attack or cast. Applying 3 stacks to a target within a 3 second period causes them to be struck by lightning, dealing them 30 − 180 (based on level) (+ 40% bonus AD) (+ 25% AP) Attack damageAbility power Adaptive damage. > > Cooldown > 25 − 20 (based on level) seconds > > Basically press the attack does more dmg than Electrocute on low level and almost has a non-existant cooldown. Considering how easy it is for him to proc that rune, it's no wonder how easily he can win quick squirmishes. > > All it takes to cut down on Lucian's power is to cut down dmg from Press the attack (LOWER BASE DMG, LEAVE THE MAX DMG UNTOUCHED). He is one of the only Range champion that takes Press the attack as its main rune and has been a clear favorite in bot lane for his great burst, dashes and sustain. ALl you have to do is play raka cait and lucian is weak
> [{quoted}](name=Platinum Courage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IkvBlZYH,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2019-01-30T05:00:59.724+0000) > > ALl you have to do is play raka cait and lucian is weak I mean, that's not a very good solution.
awdsawds (EUW)
: Xin R lets heimer's turrets do dmg to him even if turrets are outside of radius
As far as I know, Xin Zhao is **immune to champions**, not turrets or whatever tools left by champions. He would be hurt by nidalee's traps Same goes for Jhin's traps Zyra's plants, and of course Heimerdinger's turrets
: If you think Akali lossing her heal is a good idea.
Removing healing capabilities from a champion that can't naturally heal is questionnable. For Akali, she's running Hextech gunblade 100% of the time, she still will have sustain but not during early phase. Considering how easy and safe she is in early phase, I think it's a good thing to make Akali hard to play. As for compensation for removing such power spike, idk, maybe she could have a reduced energy cost for her Q.
Amâzigh (NA)
: Akali is dead
Akali naturally don't need sustain, Hextech gunblade is part of her everyday build. Considering how safe she is in early game, she wasn't punished enough. Riot didn't touch her dmg and she will still one shot you if you're not careful
: So is Varus going to be kept at below every marksmen for the rest of the year Riot?
Varus isn't weak by far... He does have great dmg, he just needs love because of his lack of mobility but that's all.
: Reasons why Lucian is strong: - Doesn't need to build regular crit adc items - Doesn't rely on auto-attacks to trade - Naturally good early game. There you go buddy has nothing to do with keystones.
> [{quoted}](name=Zetsutroll2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IkvBlZYH,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-01-21T20:55:40.637+0000) > > Reasons why Lucian is strong: > > - Doesn't need to build regular crit adc items > - Doesn't rely on auto-attacks to trade > - Naturally good early game. > > There you go buddy has nothing to do with keystones. Yes .... He usually build rapid firecanon and Infinity edge. He can easily abuse PtA because of his passive and dash and that keystone has a 6 second cooldown. He is good in early game because of how easy he can proc PtA and as I said earlier, it does more dmg than electrocute in the early game.
: How do you build against true damage
Attack speed reduction is the key of countering true dmg... Unfortunately, there are very few abilities that offers attack speed reduction. Fiora - Riposte Malphite - Ground slam Nasus - Wither Getting Frozen heart and Thornmail (or randuin) is also a very good way of countering since it reduces attack speed too. Combine it with lots of Health and CC, and you're good to go What you need to know, attack speed reductions stack multiplicatively and take percentages off the final attack speed value after all bonus attack speed has been factored in making it VERY usefull against high attacking speed champions such as Master Yi, Vayne, Twitch, Kog Maw, Jinx Malphite is usually the number 1 choice for countering auto attack champions considering how easy it is for him to get near ennemies with his ultimate and apply ground slam followed by Randuin's omen
: I gotta say, 20% damage reduction for 4 seconds is pretty insane for dueling
That is indeed very strong. I've always wondered why it hasn't been nerfed
: you can do 80k damage in aram and still lose
What if the other team had someone who healed 80K ? :thinking:
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
m0zz4r3ll4 (EUNE)
: boots of swiftness (useless?)
Swiftness boots is my main choice for Jhin, Sona, Janna :) When your champion can have increased move speed by whatever item/skill, That slow reduction prevention is really noticeable! With Janna and Sona, you're so fragile during early game that whenever you get caught, it's instant death. So I like to buy cheap boots to keep myself from distance.
Gramps69 (NA)
: What are the gold values of Armor/MR/Health compared to the gold values you get from the adaptive force runes?
> [{quoted}](name=Gramps69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n7oNMyZ3,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2019-01-14T22:55:29.239+0000) > > What are the gold values of Armor/MR/Health compared to the gold values you get from the adaptive force runes? here's a copy paste of a post of Leafera just because it summarizes well all gold value from stats > Runes Gold value, best to worst at lvl 18: > cooldown reduction has a gold value of 26.6 per point: 1-10= 26-266 Gold value. > Health has a gold value of 2.67 per point: 15-90= 40-240 Gold value. > Attack speed has a gold value of 25 per point: 10= 225 Gold value. > Ability power has a gold value of 21.75 per point: 9= 217 Gold value. > Attack damage has a theoretical gold value of 35 per point: 6= 210 Gold value. > Magic resistance has a gold value of 18 per point: 6= 108 Gold value. > Armor has a gold value of 20 per point: 5= 100 Gold value. > Armor runes is the real meme. > The solution is to move the maximum HP from lvl 18 to 10, and double the resistance value.
: Daily reminder that 15-90 scaling hp is a meme and needs to be buffed
I mean, everything is based on stats and its price value : 5 armor is basically worth 100g which is 20 gold per armor. 6 magic resist is basically worth 108g which is 18 gold per armor. 15 health on level 1 + 4.17 health per level is basically worth 2.6 gold per health. So it's worth 50 gold on lvl 1 and can go up to 234 gold at level 18. IF on average you are level 9-10 in a game, it goes back to say that health rune value is worth 114 gold which is almost the same as the two other options BASED on that, extra health should be the best rune to start with. If we take Lucian for example and he would take armor instead of health, this is what would happen: He starts with 28 armor and 571 health which gives him an effective health of = ((28/100)+1)*571= 731 effective health With that extra armor, it would go up to ((33/100)+1)*571= 759 effective health If he would have taken that health rune, he would have 731+19 = 750 effective health You can see that on level 3, getting that health rune can already overclass rune stats.
Goldtoxx (EUNE)
: MF Q and Stormrazor
Her Q is an on hit effect. It does not apply Critical damage. Imagine if it did. All those Ezreal's Q would be insane.
Myrmiron (EUW)
: Why though? Must have taken forever to clear red alone when he could have had a botlane helping him with it. Time is the most important resource for junglers, if you don't use it properly you're pretty much playing to get carried, so I don't feel like wasting time just to not lose any HP at your first jungle camp is worth it.
> [{quoted}](name=Myrmiron,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LLIs34n1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-07T17:44:07.500+0000) > > Why though? Must have taken forever to clear red alone when he could have had a botlane helping him with it. > Time is the most important resource for junglers, if you don't use it properly you're pretty much playing to get carried, so I don't feel like wasting time just to not lose any HP at your first jungle camp is worth it. A bot lane that reaches level 2 before the other team has a greater advantage. Especially when you give them time to setup in bushes and poke them before the laning phase even started. The jungler then has more health to gank mid or top depending on the road he is taking which is pretty nice imo. And no, clearing the red alone would take maybe 15 seconds without smite.
: Hourglass should be able to be used while under Malzahar's ult
{{item:3102}} ? Let me remind you that Malz is also immobilized during that ultimate. You getting caught by Malzahar is another story. Your team has all the time it takes to CC that Malzahar to save you if you were NOT alone
: Galio is insane, wtf!!!??
I mean, his spells are so easy to dodge. Getting hit by an AP Galio SHOULD hurt if you're a squishy champion, no?
: Or you can melt him since with that build Jax has no resistences and is squishy af, Also, to complete that kind of build that game must have been 40 mins long, your fault for not ending it first
> [{quoted}](name=Wolf Of The Dawn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zEewwGN4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-07T15:22:01.790+0000) > > Or you can melt him since with that build Jax has no resistences and is squishy af, Also, to complete that kind of build that game must have been 40 mins long, your fault for not ending it first It depends Jax was playing against what team. Don't forget that his ultimate has an active that gives him magic resist and armor that scales. He also had massive health because of frozen mallet + Sterak. But yeah, a snowballing Jax is pretty hard to deal with. If Jax was this fed, it must have been your team's fault
Rioter Comments
: What is, in your opinion, the worst designed champion in this game?
I really don't like solo pusher champions, that only specialises in solo pushing and when grouped, they aren't that good. {{champion:23}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:75}}
: Animation Feedback - Karma fast run
I find it especially weird to see Karma run like that when she's wearing a dress. But I really don't mind her new move animation.
: No, She has to be knocked up, or displaced by something other than her kit or her teams kit.
> [{quoted}](name=Rito Malathor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEigecHi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-06T02:56:31.664+0000) > > No, She has to be knocked up, or displaced by something other than her kit or her teams kit. ah..
Rioter Comments
: Adopt a silver?
Aww poor little potato :3 I mean, silver isn't THAT BAD. A very high proportion of LoL players are bronze-silver-gold. You're ok!
: > Now, on why Karma's shield is problematic. > > Her shield provided INSTANT effect and dmg. > Her shield would easily refresh her Mantra's cooldown, giving her more opportunity to cast that spell No shit. That's what her passive is about?? Her passive is rewarding her for playing aggressively. All of her spells interact with her passive BUT E/RE currently. You could cast her RE to 5 man shield, you could cast it to 1 man shield and 5 man (very unlikely but still possible on somebody diving from your team) damage or you could cast it to 2-3 man shield and 2-3 man damage. That's what was cool about that spell - it could've been either defensive (disengage / shied) or offensive (engage / damage) option. Her entire kit should've been build around that concept. > Her shield provided no additionnal shield value when mixed with mantra, but only giving extra dmg which is NOT a support trait. That's not how a support helps his allies. Karma. Is. Not. A. Support. Only. Champion. **She was meant to be both solo and duo laner**. Her being support is the result of 3 years of balancing around RE, removing damage from her kit and balancing her strictly around shield % / support in general items. That's why her RQ alone can 100-0 somebody when she's build full AP (will be even worse after her upcoming changes) and that's why her shield is in this state. >They usually give effects such as Janna's shield giving AD dmg and Lulu's shield giving extra dmg with Pix. Rakan's shield would be a gap closer to get near his allies and also them if he hit that quill right. Janna gives AD. Lulu gives Pix. Karma gives haste. Dunno what's your issue? >I MAINLY PLAY Karma (...) I can hardly believe that cause you sound like you played that champion about ... 5 times. You compare Karma to Janna, Lulu, Rakan meanwhile ignoring her haste buff completly. > Her shield was usually used to be a iniative tool to get near ennemies. Since shields now last 1,5 second, it would be stupid to waste the shield value and shieldbomb. It doesn't work right now. First of all, her shield is 2.5 sec with haste that is 1.5 sec. Secondly, even with 2.5 sec shield you don't really waste anything. Both her engage and disengage are fine atm. You just have to be more precise with the shield timing (which is skill expression). Also, (more detailed description above) RE could've been used defensively (shield and disengage), offensively (damage and engage) or "path in between" so both in average and not only as initiative tool. > Since she mostly gets AP items, That shield dmg would be a cheap way to hit champions because you have no reaction time. Stop with the no reaction time already, jeez. Check /r/karmamains and ask if they're fine with delayed shieldbomb. I (and many other) never said that her 5.10 was perfect but it was much better than she is now. Reverting her to 5.10 AND working on her from there (if necessary) is our point. So here's the number analysis. With her support build (Remnant, Athene's, Ardent, Redemption, Locket, Ionians) she'd be sitting on about 250 ap (depending on items and runes like transcendence). Her RE would hit you for: lvl 1: 60+18 = 78 pre mitigation damage (55 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) lvl 6: 140+36 = 176 pre mitigation damage (123 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) lvl 11: 220+78 = 298 pre mitigation damage (209 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) lvl 16: 300+150 = 450 pre mitigation damage (315 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) Is that really so much? It's her ULTIMATE after all. Also with her new passive (announced changes) or her pre 5.10 passive (2s/1s) it's impossible to spam mantras. With the lowest cooldown of ~17 sec (with 5% from inspiration adn ultimate hunter which almost nobody runs these days) she can cast two instant mantras (announced changes) or still be left with 7 sec cooldown (pre 5.10 passive) after 5 man enemy shieldbomb (which is unrealistic in most scenarios). Her RQ after announced changes would deal: lvl 1: 35+9 = 44 AND 25+18 = 43 | 44+43 = 87 bonus pre mitigation damage (61 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) lvl 6: 105+18 = 123 AND 110+36 = 147 | 123+147 = 270 bonus pre mitigation damage (189 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) lvl 11: 175+39 = 214 AND 195+78 = 273 | 214+273 = 487 bonus pre mitigation damage (341 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) lvl 16: 245+75 = 320 AND 280+150 = 430 | 280+430 = 710 bonus pre mitigation damage (497 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) (that's just bonus blast and detonation damage, add basic Q damage to these numbers which are 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 + 60% AP) with that in mind her RE: - on champion lv 1-5 would deal 78 pre mitigation damage - on champion lv 6-10 would deal 176 pre mitigation damage - on champion lv 11-15 would deal 298 pre mitigation damage 1 passive interaction per champion hit. Also, with her RE damage back she'd lose bonus main target shield. her RQ: - on champion lv 1 would deal 80 + 44 + 43 = 124 (blast) + 43 (detonation) pre mitigation damage - on champion lv 2would deal 125 + 44 + 43 = 169 (blast) + 43 (detonation) pre mitigation damage - on champion lv 5 would deal 170 + 44 + 43 = 214 (blast) + 43 (detonation) pre mitigation damage - on champion lv 7 would deal 215 + 123 + 147 = 338 (blast) + 147 (detonation) pre mitigation damage - on champion lv 9-10 would deal 260 + 123 + 147 = 383 (blast) + 147 (detonation) pre mitigation damage - on champion lv 11-15 would deal 260 + 214 + 273 = 474 (blast) + 273 (detonation) pre mitigation damage Currently 2 passive interaction opportunities per champion hit (1 guaranteed). I don't really understand this holy crusade against shieldbomb. Shieldbomb numbers weren't anywhere close to being unhealthy or op. Even being instant doesn't make it nearly as strong as these two terms are. >I MAINLY PLAY Karma mid with half win half lose. She's STILL doing very fine. Well somebody on the life support is technically alive too. Does that mean they are doing well? I don't think so. >What Riot removed, is her many possibilities of dealing dmg with her spells. Before in any situations you could simply cast mantra and deal extra dmg. Now, you actually have to think which way is the best of getting of a situation. Saying that picking a contextual mantra wasn't a thing in pre 5.10 is a lie. RQ was for AoE damage. Best for skirmishes (damage) or poking down safely from distance. RW was for massive single target damage and lockdown. Q alone could deal alot of damage making RW --> Q combo effective (and better if your jg was ganking your lane). RE was for engaging / disengaging. Best for skirmishes (damage / shielding) and passive interaction in clumpy fights. If you want to convince me that you could slap any mantra and be as effective with it as with contextual mantra cause "muh bonus damage with all choices" you're just proving you have no clue about pre 5.10 playstyle. What Riot did was removing 600+120% AP damage from her kit and replacing it with slightly longer root (0.5 - 1.25 | keep in mind that her W is one point wonder cause of this) and bigger shield. That alone made mid Karma not a mage but a supportive champion in midlane. Something like Lulu mid. >LoL is a team game you know. Good coordinations makes the current way better. {{champion:268}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:113}} mains would kill you if you'd say that to their face. >I'd rather have an extra 1,25 root binding instead of a 300 dmg extra 60% W. I'd rather have an extra shield for my allies instead of a 300 dmg extra 60% shield bomb. And I'd rather not. This is not an argument of any sort. >Have you played against Zilean mid? He has A SINGLE spell dmg, yet it works pretty well If you know how to play him effectively. Saying he has single damage spell is a very smart way to cover up everything else. I originally wanted to answer but the longer I thought about it the more irrelevant this is. We're talking about Karma. Karam is Karma. Zilean is Zilean.
> [{quoted}](name=Rakshasa Ranja,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=0001000100000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-23T06:32:20.668+0000) > > No shit. That's what her passive is about?? > > Her passive is rewarding her for playing aggressively. All of her spells interact with her passive BUT E/RE currently. You could cast her RE to 5 man shield, you could cast it to 1 man shield and 5 man (very unlikely but still possible on somebody diving from your team) damage or you could cast it to 2-3 man shield and 2-3 man damage. That's what was cool about that spell - it could've been either defensive (disengage / shied) or offensive (engage / damage) option. > Her entire kit should've been build around that concept. > > Karma. Is. Not. A. Support. Only. Champion. > > **She was meant to be both solo and duo laner**. Her being support is the result of 3 years of balancing around RE, removing damage from her kit and balancing her strictly around shield % / support in general items. That's why her RQ alone can 100-0 somebody when she's build full AP (will be even worse after her upcoming changes) and that's why her shield is in this state. > > Janna gives AD. Lulu gives Pix. Karma gives haste. > Dunno what's your issue? > > I can hardly believe that cause you sound like you played that champion about ... 5 times. > You compare Karma to Janna, Lulu, Rakan meanwhile ignoring her haste buff completly. > > First of all, her shield is 2.5 sec with haste that is 1.5 sec. > Secondly, even with 2.5 sec shield you don't really waste anything. Both her engage and disengage are fine atm. You just have to be more precise with the shield timing (which is skill expression). Also, (more detailed description above) RE could've been used defensively (shield and disengage), offensively (damage and engage) or "path in between" so both in average and not only as initiative tool. > > Stop with the no reaction time already, jeez. Check /r/karmamains and ask if they're fine with delayed shieldbomb. I (and many other) never said that her 5.10 was perfect but it was much better than she is now. Reverting her to 5.10 AND working on her from there (if necessary) is our point. > > So here's the number analysis. > > With her support build (Remnant, Athene's, Ardent, Redemption, Locket, Ionians) she'd be sitting on about 250 ap (depending on items and runes like transcendence). Her RE would hit you for: > lvl 1: 60+18 = 78 pre mitigation damage (55 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) > lvl 6: 140+36 = 176 pre mitigation damage (123 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) > lvl 11: 220+78 = 298 pre mitigation damage (209 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) > lvl 16: 300+150 = 450 pre mitigation damage (315 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) > > Is that really so much? It's her ULTIMATE after all. Also with her new passive (announced changes) or her pre 5.10 passive (2s/1s) it's impossible to spam mantras. With the lowest cooldown of ~17 sec (with 5% from inspiration adn ultimate hunter which almost nobody runs these days) she can cast two instant mantras (announced changes) or still be left with 7 sec cooldown (pre 5.10 passive) after 5 man enemy shieldbomb (which is unrealistic in most scenarios). > > Her RQ after announced changes would deal: > lvl 1: 35+9 = 44 AND 25+18 = 43 | 44+43 = 87 bonus pre mitigation damage (61 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) > lvl 6: 105+18 = 123 AND 110+36 = 147 | 123+147 = 270 bonus pre mitigation damage (189 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) > lvl 11: 175+39 = 214 AND 195+78 = 273 | 214+273 = 487 bonus pre mitigation damage (341 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) > lvl 16: 245+75 = 320 AND 280+150 = 430 | 280+430 = 710 bonus pre mitigation damage (497 post mitigation on 0 bonus mr enemies) > > (that's just bonus blast and detonation damage, add basic Q damage to these numbers which are 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 + 60% AP) > > with that in mind > > her RE: > - on champion lv 1-5 would deal 78 pre mitigation damage > - on champion lv 6-10 would deal 176 pre mitigation damage > - on champion lv 11-15 would deal 298 pre mitigation damage > > 1 passive interaction per champion hit. > Also, with her RE damage back she'd lose bonus main target shield. > > her RQ: > - on champion lv 1 would deal 80 + 44 + 43 = 124 (blast) + 43 (detonation) pre mitigation damage > - on champion lv 2would deal 125 + 44 + 43 = 169 (blast) + 43 (detonation) pre mitigation damage > - on champion lv 5 would deal 170 + 44 + 43 = 214 (blast) + 43 (detonation) pre mitigation damage > - on champion lv 7 would deal 215 + 123 + 147 = 338 (blast) + 147 (detonation) pre mitigation damage > - on champion lv 9-10 would deal 260 + 123 + 147 = 383 (blast) + 147 (detonation) pre mitigation damage > - on champion lv 11-15 would deal 260 + 214 + 273 = 474 (blast) + 273 (detonation) pre mitigation damage > > Currently 2 passive interaction opportunities per champion hit (1 guaranteed). > > I don't really understand this holy crusade against shieldbomb. Shieldbomb numbers weren't anywhere close to being unhealthy or op. Even being instant doesn't make it nearly as strong as these two terms are. > > Well somebody on the life support is technically alive too. Does that mean they are doing well? I don't think so. > > Saying that picking a contextual mantra wasn't a thing in pre 5.10 is a lie. > > RQ was for AoE damage. > Best for skirmishes (damage) or poking down safely from distance. > RW was for massive single target damage and lockdown. > Q alone could deal alot of damage making RW --> Q combo effective (and better if your jg was ganking your lane). > RE was for engaging / disengaging. > Best for skirmishes (damage / shielding) and passive interaction in clumpy fights. > > If you want to convince me that you could slap any mantra and be as effective with it as with contextual mantra cause "muh bonus damage with all choices" you're just proving you have no clue about pre 5.10 playstyle. > What Riot did was removing 600+120% AP damage from her kit and replacing it with slightly longer root (0.5 - 1.25 | keep in mind that her W is one point wonder cause of this) and bigger shield. That alone made mid Karma not a mage but a supportive champion in midlane. Something like Lulu mid. > > {{champion:268}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:113}} mains would kill you if you'd say that to their face. > I'd rather have an extra shield for my allies instead of a 300 dmg extra 60% shield bomb. > > And I'd rather not. This is not an argument of any sort. > Saying he has single damage spell is a very smart way to cover up everything else. > > I originally wanted to answer but the longer I thought about it the more irrelevant this is. > We're talking about Karma. Karam is Karma. Zilean is Zilean. Look, i'm not gonna argue any further than this last post of mine. I hate doing some back and forth because none of us are ready to accept any arguments. You seem to be almost a 1 trick pony with Karma, or you don't care about any other champions other than Karma. I know that Karma isn't an exclusive support champion. I play her Mid, I know. It's not because she doesn't have her shield bomb anymore that she can't be played elsewhere. You seem to play her Top which is absolutely fine, I have no problem with that. You're only quoting parts of my explanations and complain about a specific part than the whole sentence. In the part where i'm talking enchanters are giving shield, i'm talking about how they give INDIRECT offensiveness with the shield to their shielded allies OTHER than straight DMG. I don't need any numbers and calculation from you to know that R+Q does more dmg to a champion than R+E. The fact that R+E is WAY more easier to land in a big teamfight makes this spell a bit problematic. It's not about dmg, it's about how many counters there are against that source of dmg. You would like to check your sources by saying that I look like a Karma player that played 5 times. I have played more than 3000 Karma ranked games in high division. I know what works and what doesn't. Some spells look ridiculous on paper, but in reality, they are more//less powerful than they are. I'm comparing Karma with Zilean because you're the one who literally said that you can't function as a mage if your kit has one damaging ability. Then explain me Zilean.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hochelaga,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=kItE5rjX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-22T16:46:49.317+0000) > > I've been playing thousands of games per season since season 2. > > I haven't received a single warning. You just need to learn to block negativity from players Wait till you get sick, have your period, and your family is fighting after having a bad day at school, then getting trolled in 3 our of 4 games. Bet you snap at that point too.
> [{quoted}](name=CandiceuL,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=kItE5rjX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-22T16:54:48.707+0000) > > Wait till you get sick, have your period, and your family is fighting after having a bad day at school, then getting trolled in 3 our of 4 games. Bet you snap at that point too. I started playing LoL when I was 17, now i'm 26. You think I haven't had a bad day during all this time ? My record losing streak is 23 back in 2014. I still kept it cool I've had multiple trolls games in straight lines I'm still studying in university. I work 4 days per week and attend 2 classes. If I snap, I take a break, I don't unleash my rage in game. I took a 1 month break not so long ago, I went and explored other games such as DoTA 2, played on my nintendo Switch, spent more time with my friends.
: Too many things are punishable.
I've been playing thousands of games per season since season 2. I haven't received a single warning. You just need to learn to block negativity from players
: > How can you even compare numbers from patch 3.5 to right now ? Do you know how many changes League had in all these gap ? I could say that MOST of all shield before had a 240-280 Value. If you compare that number right now, OF COURSE it would be overpowered. Riot even added Athene unholy grail and that extra % shield value on several support items. Do you know how overpowered it would be for Karma to keep all of her previous value combined with that? I just answered how ridiculous your statement is: >Riot kept that identity by giving her a even bigger shield value. They didn't gave her bigger shield value, in fact they lowered it by reducing her ratio and removing 6th level. And yet you still continue to spill some bs about how all shields had "240-280 value" and how "% shield" was introduced. This. Is. Irrelevant. You said that they gave her "bigger shield" after rework which was a lie. I pointed that out meanwhile you kept making points that aren't even relevant to the topic. > Also, let me explain to you why Karma was in most of the time in a lower tiers than every other enchanters; It wasn't because of her shield or Shieldbomb, It was because she lacked any form of reliable CC, JUST LIKE THE PREVIOUS KARMA. It's not like she doesn't have reliable CC today, right? And it's not like her upcoming rework does NOTHING to fix this, right? >Have you played the first rework of Karma or the first Karma? Never played old karma but I picked her up right after 3.5 rework. >The second Karma rework carried on some flaws she had; >(...) all it did, mantra could add extra dmg instead of a better effect of some sort. If by "second rework" you mean 5.10 (since I don't understand your glossary) then in what world removing "600 (+1.2 AP) damage from her entire kit which was already lacking in damage" made "mantra (...) add extra dmg"? Are you serious? They removed bonus damage from RW (which did hurt more than RQ but was single target). They removed shieldbomb making RE not interacting with passive and removed another form of damage from her kit. That's. Why. Mage. Karma. Died. You cant function as a mid mage if your kit has one damaging ability (+ insignificant W damage). Her only offensive choice as mid mage is RQ. It could be all 3 before - RQ (for significant AoE damage and slowing zone), RW (for significant single target damage and decent emergency heal) and RE (for minor AoE damage, minor shield and engage/disengage). Her 5.10 changes failed to "provided enough effects for an ultimate" and in addition they removed so much damage from her kit it's ridiculous replacing it with insignificant (or unnecessary) root duration extension and boosting her main target shield (since her AoE is lower than it was during pre 5.10 era). > Have you seen her upcomming rework ? they are giving her a mana regain spell for his allies. I could argue that this effect was one of Soraka's signature spell. Why would they give it to Karma ? Not only they gave her Soraka's effect on RW, they even recycled Zilean's old ability too and slapped it on top of RW. Visit /r/karmamains and you'd see majority of post are literally pointing that out. Memes about Karma being Soraka or Zilean now. It was Soraka's signature spell. Ally cooldown reduction is screaming Zilean. I could go on and on (I do, on /r/karmamains) mostly by shitposting. Why? Dunno. It's lazy, not creative, not resonating well with her kit and will be a balancing nightmare aka RE 2.0. Ask NC not me. I'm the one hating these changes since they were announced. If it was me I'd move (and nerf) her current passive to R and give her a real passive. This lowers her mantra uptime so it can be significantly boosted making it feel impactful. It is ultimate after all. Her passive is holding her back. Her base R cooldown can be as low as almost 17s. Adding her 2/3/4s and 1/1.5/2s passive into the equation can add up to 3 mantras in one fight, sometimes 4 if fight is clumpy enough. Her passive was supercharged due to shieldbomb removal creating one of the biggest issues in her kit. You can't give players powerful mantra choices if R can be on 10 or less sec cooldown (you can even RQ and refresh her mantra instantly with 4 man hit on lv 16+). It's her passive that holds so much power budged and overcharging it was one of the reason she's a balancing nightmare. You can't (or will have a bad time) balancing a champion with 10 sec cooldown R if it isnt a combo piece (like Zoe's) and you wont be able to make it meaningful since it could be cast every 10 sec.
> [{quoted}](name=Rakshasa Ranja,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=00010001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-22T00:17:29.529+0000) > > I just answered how ridiculous your statement is: > > They didn't gave her bigger shield value, in fact they lowered it by reducing her ratio and removing 6th level. And yet you still continue to spill some bs about how all shields had "240-280 value" and how "% shield" was introduced. > > This. Is. Irrelevant. > > You said that they gave her "bigger shield" after rework which was a lie. I pointed that out meanwhile you kept making points that aren't even relevant to the topic. > > It's not like she doesn't have reliable CC today, right? And it's not like her upcoming rework does NOTHING to fix this, right? > > Never played old karma but I picked her up right after 3.5 rework. > > If by "second rework" you mean 5.10 (since I don't understand your glossary) then in what world removing "600 (+1.2 AP) damage from her entire kit which was already lacking in damage" made "mantra (...) add extra dmg"? Are you serious? > They removed bonus damage from RW (which did hurt more than RQ but was single target). They removed shieldbomb making RE not interacting with passive and removed another form of damage from her kit. > > That's. Why. Mage. Karma. Died. > > You cant function as a mid mage if your kit has one damaging ability (+ insignificant W damage). > Her only offensive choice as mid mage is RQ. It could be all 3 before - RQ (for significant AoE damage and slowing zone), RW (for significant single target damage and decent emergency heal) and RE (for minor AoE damage, minor shield and engage/disengage). > Her 5.10 changes failed to "provided enough effects for an ultimate" and in addition they removed so much damage from her kit it's ridiculous replacing it with insignificant (or unnecessary) root duration extension and boosting her main target shield (since her AoE is lower than it was during pre 5.10 era). > > Not only they gave her Soraka's effect on RW, they even recycled Zilean's old ability too and slapped it on top of RW. > Visit /r/karmamains and you'd see majority of post are literally pointing that out. Memes about Karma being Soraka or Zilean now. It was Soraka's signature spell. Ally cooldown reduction is screaming Zilean. > I could go on and on (I do, on /r/karmamains) mostly by shitposting. > > Why? Dunno. It's lazy, not creative, not resonating well with her kit and will be a balancing nightmare aka RE 2.0. Ask NC not me. I'm the one hating these changes since they were announced. > > If it was me I'd move (and nerf) her current passive to R and give her a real passive. This lowers her mantra uptime so it can be significantly boosted making it feel impactful. It is ultimate after all. Her passive is holding her back. Her base R cooldown can be as low as almost 17s. Adding her 2/3/4s and 1/1.5/2s passive into the equation can add up to 3 mantras in one fight, sometimes 4 if fight is clumpy enough. Her passive was supercharged due to shieldbomb removal creating one of the biggest issues in her kit. > You can't give players powerful mantra choices if R can be on 10 or less sec cooldown (you can even RQ and refresh her mantra instantly with 4 man hit on lv 16+). It's her passive that holds so much power budged and overcharging it was one of the reason she's a balancing nightmare. You can't (or will have a bad time) balancing a champion with 10 sec cooldown R if it isnt a combo piece (like Zoe's) and you wont be able to make it meaningful since it could be cast every 10 sec. Now let me repeat this to you. I MAINLY PLAY Karma mid with half win half lose. She's STILL doing very fine. Her combo basically stays the same, you go over someone with your shield, cast that W and finish off with Mantra+Q. Mid Karma is still alive. What Riot removed, is her many possibilities of dealing dmg with her spells. Before in any situations you could simply cast mantra and deal extra dmg. Now, you actually have to think which way is the best of getting of a situation. DMG is not always the best option. LoL is a team game you know. Good coordinations makes the current way better. I'd rather have an extra 1,25 root binding instead of a 300 dmg extra 60% W. I'd rather have an extra shield for my allies instead of a 300 dmg extra 60% shield bomb. It's not because you have a single high burst spell that you can't mid. Have you played against Zilean mid? He has A SINGLE spell dmg, yet it works pretty well If you know how to play him effectively. As I said, I was once a Karma conservative that would do anything to bring her shield bomb back. I even suggested some changes several years before to keep her shieldbomb alive; I suggested her shield bomb AOE dmg to scale based on her missing health because it fit her first ever passive I suggested her shield bomb value go down and add an extra shield value.
: > No matter how many times I argue with you, i'm pretty sure you won't accept anything from me. I've seen your countless theads of Karma in the forum. Then you should have seen countless people convincing me with good arguments. > I'm not saying that her shieldbomb concept is bad, no, it got transfered to Ivern and Sion with a minor difference (or even with Neeko as you say). It was actually how problematic the shieldbomb was for Karma's kit. Sion used to have his before Karma, since he is older, but yeah. NC's reason for not reintroducing shieldbomb was, that it could've eaten too much of the power she freed by nerfing the passive,... but then again she refused to adress the unnecessary bonus-root and buffed the values on all basic abilities. However, most of its competitive power is/was in the MS buff anyways... which she nerfed as well? > Karma's new W added effect literally just took Soraka's old mana regain for allies. Now let me tell you that Soraka's previous E was also one of her signature and core spells during laning phase. The concept wasn't bad, but just like Karma, It was also problematic for Soraka. I challenged NC on this. I wanted to know how a mana donating spells isn't okay on Soraka, but on Karma it is. She said the CDR was an enabler and kind of pointless if the target had no mana to fully use it. To make it equally useful on all targets ressources must be included in the CDR package. I then asked why it then didn't add energy as well, which made her hesitate a bit, but she continued with admitting to being very cautious around energy users. But anyways, Soraka trivialized some champions' weaknesses, since they used to be balanced around manacost. It's not that rough these days, but that's also the reason mana pots are gone. Soraka worked as a mana battery. Karma has it to enable another thing. On a longer CD. I think the argument isn't THAT it is different, but looking into WHY it is different is crucial. > Yes, Neeko have a similar effect. But that's her ULTIMATE. You can add a lot of power for an ultimate especially when it's 90 second cooldown. And Ivern's shield isn't an ultimate. And Karma's ability is two spells, one of which is a semi ultimate. You can literally have the power of two basic spells and then some. > I'm not a game designer, but I know a lot about balancing when i'm constantly playing against high level players. I even got friend's who are level designers. There are things that LOOKS okay on paper, but is not good in reality. Karma's shieldbomb was one of them. I literally do not care about your credentials at all. You could have played one single LoL game and I wouldn't think twice about it. Logical reasons is the only thing I crave. Prove why Karma's shieldbomb is bad, but Sion's, Ivern's and Neeko's aren't. Rick removed it to add "contextual decision making", which failed. NC didn't reintroduce it because she wanted to spend her power budget elsewhere. None of those reasons scream "inherently problematic" to me.
> [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=00010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-21T23:17:49.669+0000) > > Then you should have seen countless people convincing me with good arguments. > > Sion used to have his before Karma, since he is older, but yeah. > NC's reason for not reintroducing shieldbomb was, that it could've eaten too much of the power she freed by nerfing the passive,... but then again she refused to adress the unnecessary bonus-root and buffed the values on all basic abilities. > However, most of its competitive power is/was in the MS buff anyways... which she nerfed as well? > > I challenged NC on this. I wanted to know how a mana donating spells isn't okay on Soraka, but on Karma it is. She said the CDR was an enabler and kind of pointless if the target had no mana to fully use it. To make it equally useful on all targets ressources must be included in the CDR package. I then asked why it then didn't add energy as well, which made her hesitate a bit, but she continued with admitting to being very cautious around energy users. > > But anyways, Soraka trivialized some champions' weaknesses, since they used to be balanced around manacost. It's not that rough these days, but that's also the reason mana pots are gone. > > Soraka worked as a mana battery. > Karma has it to enable another thing. > On a longer CD. > I think the argument isn't THAT it is different, but looking into WHY it is different is crucial. > > And Ivern's shield isn't an ultimate. > And Karma's ability is two spells, one of which is a semi ultimate. > You can literally have the power of two basic spells and then some. > > I literally do not care about your credentials at all. > You could have played one single LoL game and I wouldn't think twice about it. > Logical reasons is the only thing I crave. > Prove why Karma's shieldbomb is bad, but Sion's, Ivern's and Neeko's aren't. > > Rick removed it to add "contextual decision making", which failed. > NC didn't reintroduce it because she wanted to spend her power budget elsewhere. > None of those reasons scream "inherently problematic" to me. You're just bugged on Karma's shield bomb as I always said. I'll prove it why it's problematic and not on Sion + Ivern or Ivern and the Old Evelynn Sion's shield has a fixed 11 second cooldown. Unlike Karma's shield which is 8 second. It's only a self cast, not on Allies It Takes 3 seconds before you can detonate it There's NO dmg from that shield if the shield is destroyed before 3 seconds Unlike Karma, Sion can't spam this build with a 40% cdr because his building path doesn't allow it or else you're not efficient. Sion doesn't get magic penetration items. That dmg detonation is pretty low. The old Sion's shield was a little bit problematic EVEN if it's almost the same as right now BECAUSE of the build. Old Sion was generally played AP, which would give his detonation dmg massive dmg because it had a 300 shield value + 90% AP. Sion is MAINLY a tank dmg, getting 1 shot from Sion is practically impossible and there's MULTIPLE WAYS to get away from his spells. So, you get a 3 seconds to react versus this shield, you can destroy it, you can stay away from Sion, you can lock him in place before that shield does anything to you. Ivern's Shield; Gives the weakest Nuke for 140 dmg AFTER 2 SECONDS. Once again, giving enough time to react before it explodes You use that Shield more for the slow and NOT the dmg. Unlike Karma, Ivern is more like a nuissance champion. He isn't meant to deal dmg, but more of a CC'er and supporter. So EVEN if Ivern would go FULL AP (which is basically stupid), he won't be as oppresive as Karma. Ivern's building path is meant to go support and defensive to help his team. Neeko's ultimate shield Has a 90 second cooldown You channel first for 1,25 second and you jump in the air for 0,75 second and THEN 1,25 second gap before the shield detonate. That's over 3,25 second before the shield explodes. THAT'S A LONG TIME. She's still in developpement phase, where most champions are Overtuned in order to see their full effect. So that 650 Dmg and 130% AP ratio will be mostly gone Unlike Karma she won't have a way to spam that spell, and you'll need to think carefully to use that spell That spell is self casting Evelynn's ultimate shield Basically had a 150 second cooldown that got reduced to 120 on her final days That shield value is based on champion hit Dmg is based on champion's missing health. You'll never kill someone off that spell Self cast buff shield. Now, on why Karma's shield is problematic. Her shield provided INSTANT effect and dmg. Her shield would easily refresh her Mantra's cooldown, giving her more opportunity to cast that spell Her shield provided no additionnal shield value when mixed with mantra, but only giving extra dmg which is NOT a support trait. That's not how a support helps his allies. They usually give effects such as Janna's shield giving AD dmg and Lulu's shield giving extra dmg with Pix. Rakan's shield would be a gap closer to get near his allies and also them if he hit that quill right. Her shield was usually used to be a iniative tool to get near ennemies. Since shields now last 1,5 second, it would be stupid to waste the shield value and shieldbomb. It doesn't work right now. Since she mostly gets AP items, That shield dmg would be a cheap way to hit champions because you have no reaction time. Mixed with her other spells, it would would make perfect sense that her shield wouldn't do any dmg. You choose offensive (Q) or defensive (E). Not both. That's in her lore and everything she does. I DO care about peoples credentials. I don't like it when most people who are complaining in the forum are low divisions. They are lacking knowledge EVEN if it's look logical with numbers. Would you like a Riot's employee balance the game who has played the game once ? I know I won't.
: > I'm not sure about which version of Karma you're talking about for Duality, but the current Karma is way better for dueling if you compare her to the first Karma. Did you just confuse duelling and duality? > All what you people want from Karma is her shieldbomb making you blind to all other changes she's had in multiple patches. When her rework came in, her win rate was beyond horrendous. All of her spells felt weak, even with her shieldbomb because of her old passive being replaced. The cause ? she couldn't spam enough mantra to get her effect in and her empowered effects were all a bit unsatisfying. You lump me in with people I don't know and possibly don't agree on. Your assumption I only care about shieldbomb is demonstrably wrong, if you look up my threads in the last 3 years. I only care for closing the gap in the Karma community and making Karma a wholesome and fulfilling champion. Your idea that one couldn't **agree** with a champion needing change and **disagree** with the proposed/implemented changes is unfathomably shortsighted. > Now Riot did a big cleanup on Karma, and gave her more identity when she uses a mantra charge with each of her spells and instead of all of her choices giving her extra dmg, it could provide either a higher CC, DMG or shield which I do think is pretty clear. Now? They only thing they have been doing in the past 2 years is juggle values. NeuroCat is only adding a new ally target W. Which is a problem in itself; adding something completely new is just creating a third playerbase for her, instead of pleasing current and old fans equally. It also dilludes Karma's concept even further. Also, this "cleanup" or whatever you wanna call it, happened in 5.10 and was the cause for all the balance issues that followed since then. It ruined her flexibility as a damage mage, made her predictable and boring, made her better as a shieldbot in the support role, instead of a champion that needs to balance out damage and shielding all the time and made her RW selfhealing beyond broken. Tank Karma was no issue before then. Ricklessabandon claimed he wanted to create better decision making, but ruined it, because ever since then, in every of Karma's possible roles, one mantra runs dominant. RQ for mage, RW for tank, RE for support. > i'm repeating this again and again, her Shield bomb was PROBLEMATIC. It wasn't. Otherwise Sion and Ivern wouldn't have one. Also, jokes on you, the next champion is getting a shieldbomb as well (with a TIMER :0) ) People can't keep claiming the ideas on her were bad and then they keep popping up on other champions all the time. Shieldbomb {{champion:427}} , lvl6 spells {{champion:126}} , ally tether {{champion:44}} ... > If they added a timer, it wouldn't feel like an ultimate The idea that a base-spell-enhancing ressource MUST _feel_ like an ultimate is the core issue of the problem. Just being obsessed with feelings instead of actual game design is problematic as fuck. Corki also has no spell that feels like an ultimate. So what? What about Jayce and Nidalee? Their transformations don't FEEL like ultimates either? > This would be problematic with Support Karma if all they would think of is R+E. You used to be able to spot inexperienced Karma players by whether they used RQ or RE to waveclear (3.5-5.10). Besides: a single person not understanding the full potential and capabilities of a champion may NOT be used to excuse balance decisions. > Rick removed it and it allowed Karma to have redistribute buffs elsewhere. Did you not get this? Removing core spells can NOT be excused by adding power elsewhere. You want to have interesting champions MORE than just champions with bloated numbers. > She's still one of the top champion whenever it comes to shielding someone. Being the "best at shielding" isn't a desireable or fulfilling champion fantasy. > Riot did A LOT of changes on champions that I like, but I still play them; I also love Sion and like new Swain even more than before. So what?
> [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-19T22:12:38.790+0000) > > Did you just confuse duelling and duality? > > You lump me in with people I don't know and possibly don't agree on. Your assumption I only care about shieldbomb is demonstrably wrong, if you look up my threads in the last 3 years. I only care for closing the gap in the Karma community and making Karma a wholesome and fulfilling champion. Your idea that one couldn't **agree** with a champion needing change and **disagree** with the proposed/implemented changes is unfathomably shortsighted. > > Now? They only thing they have been doing in the past 2 years is juggle values. NeuroCat is only adding a new ally target W. Which is a problem in itself; adding something completely new is just creating a third playerbase for her, instead of pleasing current and old fans equally. It also dilludes Karma's concept even further. > > Also, this "cleanup" or whatever you wanna call it, happened in 5.10 and was the cause for all the balance issues that followed since then. It ruined her flexibility as a damage mage, made her predictable and boring, made her better as a shieldbot in the support role, instead of a champion that needs to balance out damage and shielding all the time and made her RW selfhealing beyond broken. Tank Karma was no issue before then. > > Ricklessabandon claimed he wanted to create better decision making, but ruined it, because ever since then, in every of Karma's possible roles, one mantra runs dominant. RQ for mage, RW for tank, RE for support. > > It wasn't. Otherwise Sion and Ivern wouldn't have one. > Also, jokes on you, the next champion is getting a shieldbomb as well (with a TIMER :0) ) > People can't keep claiming the ideas on her were bad and then they keep popping up on other champions all the time. > Shieldbomb {{champion:427}} , lvl6 spells {{champion:126}} , ally tether {{champion:44}} ... > > The idea that a base-spell-enhancing ressource MUST _feel_ like an ultimate is the core issue of the problem. > Just being obsessed with feelings instead of actual game design is problematic as fuck. > > Corki also has no spell that feels like an ultimate. So what? What about Jayce and Nidalee? Their transformations don't FEEL like ultimates either? > > You used to be able to spot inexperienced Karma players by whether they used RQ or RE to waveclear (3.5-5.10). Besides: a single person not understanding the full potential and capabilities of a champion may NOT be used to excuse balance decisions. > > Did you not get this? Removing core spells can NOT be excused by adding power elsewhere. > You want to have interesting champions MORE than just champions with bloated numbers. > > Being the "best at shielding" isn't a desireable or fulfilling champion fantasy. > > I also love Sion and like new Swain even more than before. So what? No matter how many times I argue with you, i'm pretty sure you won't accept anything from me. I've seen your countless theads of Karma in the forum. I'm not saying that her shieldbomb concept is bad, no, it got transfered to Ivern and Sion with a minor difference (or even with Neeko as you say). It was actually how problematic the shieldbomb was for Karma's kit. Karma's new W added effect literally just took Soraka's old mana regain for allies. Now let me tell you that Soraka's previous E was also one of her signature and core spells during laning phase. The concept wasn't bad, but just like Karma, It was also problematic for Soraka. Yes, Neeko have a similar effect. But that's her ULTIMATE. You can add a lot of power for an ultimate especially when it's 90 second cooldown. Evelynn's previous ultimate also had a similar effect, they still removed it. I'm not a game designer, but I know a lot about balancing when i'm constantly playing against high level players. I even got friend's who are level designers. There are things that LOOKS okay on paper, but is not good in reality. Karma's shieldbomb was one of them. Again, i'm not saying that the concept is bad.
: This entire reply is such a disgusting stretch. Her 3.5 state (3.5 release was 28.03) was not even 2 weeks long and then she got a shitload of buffs (3.5 buff was 09.04) since her initial post rework state was very weak. > You're the one who might reconsider all of your statements. > I was talking about the first Karma BEFORE PATCH 3.5. Her spells had 6 levels, she could hold 2 mantra charges and her shield had a 80% AP ratio. Her passive would increase her AP based on missing % HP up to 80 extra AP. First of all, why are you even talking about pre rework karma in the first place? We're talking about both post rework karma and post rework shieldbomb. Her pre rework numbers are irrelevant to the topic though your statement is indeed correct BUT: >Riot kept that identity by giving her a even bigger shield value. Her shield numbers were **EXACTLY THE SAME** (you could say they were nerfed since she lost her 6th ability level) and she **LOST 20% SCALING** (from 80% to 60%) and **LOST FLAT AP** from passive. In what world same shield numbers (with one less ability level making her max level shield 40 less damage) **and nerf to scaling and losing AP that was empowering her entire kit (so shields too) is "GIVING HER EVEN BIGGER SHIELD VALUE"?** >That's where most of Karma's fan who loved her shieldbomb are talking about. That's not true. Majority of shieldbomb folks are talking about 3.5 - 5.10 karma. 99% pre rework karma players either moved on or aren't around anymore. It's almost 6 years since her rework went live. People accepted that pre rework karma isn't coming back but shieldbomb topic is a different story - not only it was part of her post rework kit but it was removed in mid 2015 making it way more relevant case. > Her shieldbomb since her rework AFTER patch 3.5 was beyond horrible. Yet when people mention her shieldbomb all I can hear is "it was unhealthy" "ridiculous mantra uptime due to AoE damage interacting with passive" "disgusting numbers" "too valuable to pass on" meanwhile you say that: >It dealt low dmg because it wasn't increased by her previous passive, and her AP ratio got lowered by over 30%. It was STILL a spell that couldn't be countered and was therefore PROBLEMATIC. Her R+E offered NOTHING but an explosion shield with mediocre dmg coupled with a very small speed increase for 1,25 second. On top of that, that shield movespeed had a drastic scalling movespeed going from 20% to 60% compared to right now which is 40% to 60%. It seems like you completly lost your point. You want to prove that shieldbomb was problematic by pointing out all weak spots it had? 1) Her shieldbomb ratio was lowered from 80% to 60% 20% not "over 30%". It's 25% loss if you count 60/80=0,75 making it 75% of her pre rework ratio. Still not over 30%. 2) Haste wasn't very small Literally 0.25s less than we have now and her engage/disengage (so haste) are considered problematic due to pro play. Her haste was 1.5s long AND had a FLAT MODIFIER (60%) for every mantra level. 3) Low damage - low counterplay. I don't see the issue. Also, [her AoE shield was higher during pre 5.10 era than it is now](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396987072348422155/506996504318312448/unknown.png) (not much but still). The only thing that was changed was replacing damage with bonus main target shield which eventually lead to supercharging her passive numbers (more mantra uptime) and E/RE shield value (more shields) which then lead to breaking her and making her a shieldbot she is today. > Spells CAN'T BE INSTANT if you want a counterplay. Have you seen what Riot did to all spells lately ? > > Taric's stun now takes a while before detonating and you need to aim. > Heimerdinger's missile now needs to AIM instead of hitting the nearest ennemies. > Soraka's Q is now needs to be aimed instead of her previous Q. > Evelynn's old Hate spike was automatically Hitting nearby ennemies. Now you need to aim the first shot And nobody argues with that. Majority of folks on /r/karmamains accepted delayed shieldbomb as available option though I wont agree that karma's shieldbomb was unhealthy as an instant-damage spell. Her shieldbomb required using her R which had way less uptime (was longer on cooldown) back then than it has now. > And to answer your shield argument. EVERY champions who could shield their allies got nerfed; not just Karma. > > I'm specifically talking about Janna, Lulu, Orianna, Rakan, > > Janna's shield's cooldown got a 8 second increased on level 1 > Most of the shields now last 1,5 to 2,5 seconds down from 5 > Most of the shield's value got massively tuned down See I'd agree but all champions but Karma deserved to be hit with that change. All other shielding enchanters were in decent to good spot - some like lulu were A+ tier. But Karma? Karma was (and still is) bottom tier. She got hit with nerf only due to other enchanters being too strong making her EVEN WEAKER. Also, adding to that - she was hit with both mage changes (when plenty of mages got mana regen compesation buffs) and with enchanters nerfs. She wasn't compensated in neither (she received minor buff in 8.14) >Karma STILL retains as one of the champion with the highest shield value and lowest cooldown; thus keeping her title as Miss shield. Yup, Miss shield bot (which nobody really wanted) and that's the only thing keeping her somewhat relevant. Im not even gonna address that 5.10 changes pretty much killed mage (mid) karma almost entirely. I'll leave this quote from /r/karmamains: >I lol'd at the patch notes from 2+ years ago _(5.10)_. "Hey y'all, we are removing 600 (+1.2 AP) damage from her entire kit which was already lacking in damage for a slightly longer root and a slightly stronger shield. Nevermind that despite being ULTIMATES, the first is a worse version of another champion's Q/W and the second is easily replicated by items. This is actually a buff! You're now welcome."
> [{quoted}](name=Rakshasa Ranja,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=000100010000000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-20T02:26:30.534+0000) > > This entire reply is such a disgusting stretch. > Her 3.5 state (3.5 release was 28.03) was not even 2 weeks long and then she got a shitload of buffs (3.5 buff was 09.04) since her initial post rework state was very weak. > > First of all, why are you even talking about pre rework karma in the first place? We're talking about both post rework karma and post rework shieldbomb. Her pre rework numbers are irrelevant to the topic though your statement is indeed correct BUT: > > Her shield numbers were **EXACTLY THE SAME** (you could say they were nerfed since she lost her 6th ability level) and she **LOST 20% SCALING** (from 80% to 60%) and **LOST FLAT AP** from passive. > In what world same shield numbers (with one less ability level making her max level shield 40 less damage) **and nerf to scaling and losing AP that was empowering her entire kit (so shields too) is "GIVING HER EVEN BIGGER SHIELD VALUE"?** > > That's not true. Majority of shieldbomb folks are talking about 3.5 - 5.10 karma. 99% pre rework karma players either moved on or aren't around anymore. It's almost 6 years since her rework went live. People accepted that pre rework karma isn't coming back but shieldbomb topic is a different story - not only it was part of her post rework kit but it was removed in mid 2015 making it way more relevant case. > > Yet when people mention her shieldbomb all I can hear is "it was unhealthy" "ridiculous mantra uptime due to AoE damage interacting with passive" "disgusting numbers" "too valuable to pass on" meanwhile you say that: > > It seems like you completly lost your point. You want to prove that shieldbomb was problematic by pointing out all weak spots it had? > > 1) Her shieldbomb ratio was lowered from 80% to 60% > 20% not "over 30%". It's 25% loss if you count 60/80=0,75 making it 75% of her pre rework ratio. Still not over 30%. > 2) Haste wasn't very small > Literally 0.25s less than we have now and her engage/disengage (so haste) are considered problematic due to pro play. > Her haste was 1.5s long AND had a FLAT MODIFIER (60%) for every mantra level. > 3) Low damage - low counterplay. > I don't see the issue. > > Also, [her AoE shield was higher during pre 5.10 era than it is now](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396987072348422155/506996504318312448/unknown.png) (not much but still). The only thing that was changed was replacing damage with bonus main target shield which eventually lead to supercharging her passive numbers (more mantra uptime) and E/RE shield value (more shields) which then lead to breaking her and making her a shieldbot she is today. > > And nobody argues with that. Majority of folks on /r/karmamains accepted delayed shieldbomb as available option though I wont agree that karma's shieldbomb was unhealthy as an instant-damage spell. Her shieldbomb required using her R which had way less uptime (was longer on cooldown) back then than it has now. > > See I'd agree but all champions but Karma deserved to be hit with that change. All other shielding enchanters were in decent to good spot - some like lulu were A+ tier. But Karma? Karma was (and still is) bottom tier. She got hit with nerf only due to other enchanters being too strong making her EVEN WEAKER. Also, adding to that - she was hit with both mage changes (when plenty of mages got mana regen compesation buffs) and with enchanters nerfs. She wasn't compensated in neither (she received minor buff in 8.14) > > Yup, Miss shield bot (which nobody really wanted) and that's the only thing keeping her somewhat relevant. > Im not even gonna address that 5.10 changes pretty much killed mage (mid) karma almost entirely. I'll leave this quote from /r/karmamains: I'm talking about the first Karma ever made **that's where she got her signature Shield bomb** spell that got transfered to her second rework in patch 3.5. Riot didn't want to remove it because they acknowledged that it was part of one of her signature spell. I've played over 3000 games of Karma since season 2. Do you think I don't know nothing about all of Karma's players? I Know what they want, I've been in this train wagon for years. I wanted the shield bomb back too. Unlike most people, I finally understood that It was unhealty for Karma (NOT THE CONCEPT, but with Karma's kit) and I let it go. They gave her mantra better choices when it comes to certain scenario. The previous mantra would only add dmg making it braindead when it came to using her ultimate. How can you even compare numbers from patch 3.5 to right now ? Do you know how many changes League had in all these gap ? I could say that MOST of all shield before had a 240-280 Value. If you compare that number right now, OF COURSE it would be overpowered. Riot even added Athene unholy grail and that extra % shield value on several support items. Do you know how overpowered it would be for Karma to keep all of her previous value combined with that? Also, let me explain to you why Karma was in most of the time in a lower tiers than every other enchanters; It wasn't because of her shield or Shieldbomb, It was because she lacked any form of reliable CC, JUST LIKE THE PREVIOUS KARMA. Since Riot added the extra % shield on forbidden idol, enchanters suddenly got a major rise of gameplay, Karma's shield was massive and that's what all people could think of during her peak era. Have you played the first rework of Karma or the first Karma ? Because it seems like you don't seem to get something. The first Karma got a rework for multiple reasons; - Her mantra's didn't feel impactful enough during fights, thus she felt even weaker without Mantra - She was one of the few support during that time that NEEDED to farm and take away some gold from his Adc - She lacked CC which was a major disaster for a good support. The second Karma rework carried on some flaws she had; -Her mantra STILL didn't provided enough effects for an ultimate, all it did, mantra could add extra dmg instead of a better effect of some sort. - She still lacks any reliable CC I play Karma MOSTLY Mid (yes mid, she still works FINE) and support. In no occasion I'm a bot shield. I know when to be aggresive and when to be defensive. Unlike low division players, they just know how to shield just like the first version of Janna. Have you played against the first Janna? All she did was standing behind her Adc and shield his adc. Riot changed that. Karma isn't a shield bot anymore too. Have you seen her upcomming rework ? they are giving her a mana regain spell for his allies. I could argue that this effect was one of Soraka's signature spell. Why would they give it to Karma ?
: > [{quoted}](name=Hochelaga,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-11-16T15:22:36.313+0000) > > Karma's shield once had a 80% AP ratio and you could shield creeps, already giving her the potential of miss shield because it can also be leveled 6 times. Riot kept that identity by giving her a even bigger shield value. [You may want to reconsider this statement.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cvpsI7H0gmApJn2LOTda1ukCM63E2wf-XRc99J9HbF8/edit?usp=sharing) >They removed her dmg which pissed of a lot of low elo players because it was an easy source of dmg for them with very low counterplay. You either have no clue what are you talking about or you never played during shieldbomb era (3.5 - 5.10). Using RE on minions post 3.5 (aka relaunch) was such an awful waste. It was easy damage with no counter play BUT if you wasted your R like this you'd be dead or your enemy have 0 clue about cooldowns or have a hard time engaging on you for some reason. Also damage was incredibly low (60/140/220/300 + 60% AP) especially in 1v1 scenarios. Even RW was better with its bonus damage since it dealt significantly more (RQ levels) single target damage AND healed you. > Ivern's shield has a small cooldown before blowing up, Sion too. Karma's shield was instant with a very high AOE. Maybe that's cause you're comparing basic abilities to R empowered abilities?? Both Ivern and Sion have shieldbomb without them using their ultimate. Why wouldnt her shieldbomb be stronger that theirs?? > Riot didn't completely removed her signature spell, they reworked it to make it bearable. This is XD worthy. If they reworked it to make it bearable they failed miserably cause it's RE that's the biggest issue due to overcharging her numbers. **Her RE is still considered problematic** after: - E / RE shield nerfs (5.10, 6.15, 7.12, 8.12) - RE ms nerf (from flat 60% to scaling with E | patch 6.15) - RE aoe shield (from 50% to 30% | patch 7.12) - E / RE shield duration (from 4 to 2.5 | patch 8.12) Also let me quote the 5.10 patchnotes: > (...) Additionally, removing damage on R-E means we can up the ante on Gathering Fire's cooldown reduction without seeing Karma throw out a Mantra'd E every 6 seconds in clumpy team fights. Now she can spam it even more often even without passive interacting with RE XD
> [{quoted}](name=Rakshasa Ranja,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=0001000100000001,timestamp=2018-11-19T23:07:35.153+0000) > > [You may want to reconsider this statement.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cvpsI7H0gmApJn2LOTda1ukCM63E2wf-XRc99J9HbF8/edit?usp=sharing) > > You either have no clue what are you talking about or you never played during shieldbomb era (3.5 - 5.10). Using RE on minions post 3.5 (aka relaunch) was such an awful waste. It was easy damage with no counter play BUT if you wasted your R like this you'd be dead or your enemy have 0 clue about cooldowns or have a hard time engaging on you for some reason. Also damage was incredibly low (60/140/220/300 + 60% AP) especially in 1v1 scenarios. Even RW was better with its bonus damage since it dealt significantly more (RQ levels) single target damage AND healed you. > > Maybe that's cause you're comparing basic abilities to R empowered abilities?? Both Ivern and Sion have shieldbomb without them using their ultimate. Why wouldnt her shieldbomb be stronger that theirs?? > > This is XD worthy. If they reworked it to make it bearable they failed miserably cause it's RE that's the biggest issue due to overcharging her numbers. **Her RE is still considered problematic** after: > - E / RE shield nerfs (5.10, 6.15, 7.12, 8.12) > - RE ms nerf (from flat 60% to scaling with E | patch 6.15) > - RE aoe shield (from 50% to 30% | patch 7.12) > - E / RE shield duration (from 4 to 2.5 | patch 8.12) > > Also let me quote the 5.10 patchnotes: > > Now she can spam it even more often even without passive interacting with RE XD Lol. You're the one who might reconsider all of your statements. I was talking about the first Karma BEFORE PATCH 3.5. Her spells had 6 levels, she could hold 2 mantra charges and her shield had a 80% AP ratio. Her passive would increase her AP based on missing % HP up to 80 extra AP. That's where most of Karma's fan who loved her shieldbomb are talking about. Her shieldbomb since her rework AFTER patch 3.5 was beyond horrible. It dealt low dmg because it wasn't increased by her previous passive, and her AP ratio got lowered by over 30%. It was STILL a spell that couldn't be countered and was therefore PROBLEMATIC. Her R+E offered NOTHING but an explosion shield with mediocre dmg coupled with a very small speed increase for 1,25 second. On top of that, that shield movespeed had a drastic scalling movespeed going from 20% to 60% compared to right now which is 40% to 60%. Spells CAN'T BE INSTANT if you want a counterplay. Have you seen what Riot did to all spells lately ? Taric's stun now takes a while before detonating and you need to aim. Heimerdinger's missile now needs to AIM instead of hitting the nearest ennemies. Soraka's Q is now needs to be aimed instead of her previous Q. Evelynn's old Hate spike was automatically Hitting nearby ennemies. Now you need to aim the first shot And to answer your shield argument. EVERY champions who could shield their allies got nerfed; not just Karma. I'm specifically talking about Janna, Lulu, Orianna, Rakan, Janna's shield's cooldown got a 8 second increased on level 1 Most of the shields now last 1,5 to 2,5 seconds down from 5 Most of the shield's value got massively tuned down And that's because the game meta is constantly changing. Karma STILL retains as one of the champion with the highest shield value and lowest cooldown; thus keeping her title as Miss shield.
: Seems like Jax messed up then as all he would have ot do is use his E early in the fight or not at all so that he has it after Sion died - and negated all of his damage, getting off a stun and surviving. But yes, Glacial augment Sion is a thing and I've been against it a couple of times. It's pretty good on him.
> [{quoted}](name=SexualNuts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LbnQ9FEG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-19T08:50:25.179+0000) > > Seems like Jax messed up then as all he would have ot do is use his E early in the fight or not at all so that he has it after Sion died - and negated all of his damage, getting off a stun and surviving. > > But yes, Glacial augment Sion is a thing and I've been against it a couple of times. It's pretty good on him. That's what he did, but Sion was diving him under the tower. Plus he had a sunfire cape so he couldn't farm a bit without getting hurt. Whenever our Nidalee would try ganking for him, that Sion would just ultimate and run away. He was beyond tanky and even Nidalee couldn't help our top Sion had a potential of 4 slows. - Auto attack with glacial augment - quickly casting his axe - pushing a minion - Righteous glory Jax couldn't even farm a bit. There's no way he could have saved his counter E for Sion's passive
: > Now you're just being salty because that shield's dmg got removed. You guys don't even talk about her other spells and how it still keeps the spirit of the old Karma. Yes, I am salty about that. Have been, for over 3 years now. And yes "we guys" do talk about her tether-touch, her duality spells, her battlemage identity, her old lore, her lvl6 spells, her double mantra charges... Just because I did not mention it here _specifically_ doesn't mean I, or any other Karma fan, never talks about it. > All I can hear of is she's boring and dull. She still retains her Mantra, and teether identity AND she still has a shield ability. First of all, Meddler himself called her reworked (3.5) version _"in many ways a pretty bland [champion]"_ and _"not sufficiently satisfying or distinct"_. Second of all, her mantra shifted from a secondary ressource that added opposite effects to a simple cooldown based spell empowering feature. Basically a machine gun version of Heimer, and that's a completely different thing. Old tether was creative and awkward, new tether is atrociously uninspired and... a shield without shieldbomb is about as much "retaining" her identity about it, as Lulu or Janna have stolen it. I.e. not in the slightest. > They removed her dmg which pissed of a lot of low elo players because it was an easy source of dmg for them with very low counterplay. If Karma ever poked you with RE she used the cooldown of her self-heal, self-shield and (in 3.5-5.10) her MS buff. If this isn't an invitation for all-inning her, you don't understand how cooldowns and counterplay works. > Karma's old passive was Ryze's old passive. Yet, no one talked about that but it was also part of her identity. Yes, yes we did. The Karma mains and NeuroCat talked about it on Discord. Repeatedly. > Riot didn't completely removed her signature spell, they reworked it to make it bearable. She had a shieldspell that dealt AoE damage for 5 years. It was her one most definining and versatile damage spell. Now she doesn't. They didn't add a timer. They didn't add a travel time. The didn't nerf the damage. No tweaking or adapting. They removed it. Rick did. For a stupid fucking reason. > Ryze, Evelynn, GP, Galio I am not gonna defend their work on Ryze. Also I don't know why I should. Can I not be opposed to multiple reworks? Yes, GP got NEW stuff. They built on his charakter and added a new and unique mechanic. That's good. And yup, they fucked up Galio as well. It's not that his old self didn't need a rework and new one is bad champ or anything, just as a rework it sucks (same as Aatrox, for example). > Don't think that I'm not for a Karma rework. I've been playing Karma since 2011 and my favourite spell was actually her (Q) Heavenly waves because it was easy to hit with and it offered some healing. I don't think liking a spell because it's easy to hit is a good thing, but I won't&can't tell you what to like. I liked RQ because it required clever positioning, but I prefer new Q over old Q. I have been advocating for a mixture of the new and old Q/RQ for a long time now. Make current RQ ground targeted, give it old RQ's heal. Done. Better spell, can still poke for New Karma fans, can still heal, requires positioning and awareness and works way better on a double explosion, since allies can actively seek it etc. > Do I like her Soulflare ? Yes I do, and Karma is STILL my most played champion. No idea what you are getting at here, but... good for you?
> [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-17T07:21:18.383+0000) > > Yes, I am salty about that. Have been, for over 3 years now. > And yes "we guys" do talk about her tether-touch, her duality spells, her battlemage identity, her old lore, her lvl6 spells, her double mantra charges... Just because I did not mention it here _specifically_ doesn't mean I, or any other Karma fan, never talks about it. > > First of all, Meddler himself called her reworked (3.5) version _"in many ways a pretty bland [champion]"_ and _"not sufficiently satisfying or distinct"_. > > Second of all, her mantra shifted from a secondary ressource that added opposite effects to a simple cooldown based spell empowering feature. Basically a machine gun version of Heimer, and that's a completely different thing. Old tether was creative and awkward, new tether is atrociously uninspired and... a shield without shieldbomb is about as much "retaining" her identity about it, as Lulu or Janna have stolen it. I.e. not in the slightest. > > If Karma ever poked you with RE she used the cooldown of her self-heal, self-shield and (in 3.5-5.10) her MS buff. If this isn't an invitation for all-inning her, you don't understand how cooldowns and counterplay works. > > Yes, yes we did. The Karma mains and NeuroCat talked about it on Discord. Repeatedly. > > She had a shieldspell that dealt AoE damage for 5 years. > It was her one most definining and versatile damage spell. > Now she doesn't. > > They didn't add a timer. > They didn't add a travel time. > The didn't nerf the damage. > No tweaking or adapting. > They removed it. > Rick did. For a stupid fucking reason. > > I am not gonna defend their work on Ryze. Also I don't know why I should. Can I not be opposed to multiple reworks? > Yes, GP got NEW stuff. They built on his charakter and added a new and unique mechanic. That's good. > And yup, they fucked up Galio as well. It's not that his old self didn't need a rework and new one is bad champ or anything, just as a rework it sucks (same as Aatrox, for example). > > I don't think liking a spell because it's easy to hit is a good thing, but I won't&can't tell you what to like. > I liked RQ because it required clever positioning, but I prefer new Q over old Q. > I have been advocating for a mixture of the new and old Q/RQ for a long time now. > Make current RQ ground targeted, give it old RQ's heal. Done. Better spell, can still poke for New Karma fans, can still heal, requires positioning and awareness and works way better on a double explosion, since allies can actively seek it etc. > > No idea what you are getting at here, but... good for you? I'm not sure about which version of Karma you're talking about for Duality, but the current Karma is way better for dueling if you compare her to the first Karma. All what you people want from Karma is her shieldbomb making you blind to all other changes she's had in multiple patches. When her rework came in, her win rate was beyond horrendous. All of her spells felt weak, even with her shieldbomb because of her old passive being replaced. The cause ? she couldn't spam enough mantra to get her effect in and her empowered effects were all a bit unsatisfying. Now Riot did a big cleanup on Karma, and gave her more identity when she uses a mantra charge with each of her spells and instead of all of her choices giving her extra dmg, it could provide either a higher CC, DMG or shield which I do think is pretty clear. i'm repeating this again and again, her Shield bomb was PROBLEMATIC. If they added a timer, it wouldn't feel like an ultimate If they would nerf dmg, ppl would be complaining about how bad that choice is. If they would touch anything from the shieldbomb, it would become too powerful or awful. Like the same as a Bronze Heimerdinger player would do, They would only use his ultimate with Q even when they have the opportunity to use R+W or R+E This would be problematic with Support Karma if all they would think of is R+E. Rick removed it and it allowed Karma to have redistribute buffs elsewhere. She's still one of the top champion whenever it comes to shielding someone. Janna's early shield got a major nerf. Lulu too. Karma has the lowest cooldown of all shielding AND the highest potential shield value from any support champions. And what I meant when I said that I like Soulflare is even though I prefer her previous Q, I'm not going crazy about it. Riot did A LOT of changes on champions that I like, but I still play them; - I loved Evelynn's first and second ultimate it was simple for me and was a killer move. Now even though her current ultimate is powerful, it's more of an escape // execution tool which I don't like - Riot reworked Miss Fortune, I loved going AP with Miss Fortune mixed with her previous W that would deal magic dmg and grievous wound. I would combine it with Malady, Lich bane and Nashor's tooth - Heimerdinger once had a braindead W which would hit the nearest 3 ennemies with a rocket. That was my absolute favourite ability from him.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Hochelaga,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-14T14:34:26.535+0000) > > Riot mentionned it multiple times, > > Giving back Karma's shield bomb would be excesively too powerful and her other spells would suffer major nerfs in order to balance her out which would eventually make her a shield bot bomber again. > > By removing her shield bomb, it allows Riot to put more power in other spells. I don't care how much power they could pour into Thresh's kit if they just removed the lantern, I don't want champions to lose their signature spells they had for years. Build on unique concepts, don't remove them and excuse it with added power.
> [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-11-15T22:43:38.747+0000) > > I don't care how much power they could pour into Thresh's kit if they just removed the lantern, > I don't want champions to lose their signature spells they had for years. > > Build on unique concepts, > don't remove them and excuse it with added power. Now you're just being salty because that **shield's dmg got removed**. You guys don't even talk about her other spells and how it still keeps the spirit of the old Karma. All I can hear of is she's boring and dull. She still retains her Mantra, and teether identity AND she still has a shield ability. Karma's shield once had a 80% AP ratio and you could shield creeps, already giving her the potential of miss shield because it can also be leveled 6 times. Riot kept that identity by giving her a even bigger shield value. They removed her dmg which pissed of a lot of low elo players because it was an easy source of dmg for them with very low counterplay. Ivern's shield has a small cooldown before blowing up, Sion too. Karma's shield was instant with a very high AOE. Karma's old passive was Ryze's old passive. Yet, no one talked about that but it was also part of her identity. Riot didn't completely removed her signature spell, they reworked it to make it bearable. They did the same with Soraka's previous Starcall which didn't even required to aim. What about Ryze's old ultimate ? They tried to keep it twice in 2 reworks and it still didn't work. I could also be talking about one of Evelynn's old ultimate; Agony embrace mixed with the infamous Deathfire grasp item. The old Gangplank was pretty easy to play around. Now Riot added one of his most iconic spells; barrels. Galio's old ultimate was also his signature spell? They completely removed it and changed it. Don't think that I'm not for a Karma rework. I've been playing Karma since 2011 and my favourite spell was actually her (Q) Heavenly waves because it was easy to hit with and it offered some healing. Do I like her Soulflare ? Yes I do, and Karma is STILL my most played champion.
Vealerius (EUNE)
: Item Concept: Hextech Electrolens
Why would you call this item ''hextech'' when there's no hextech revolver in the recipe? The fact that this item gives everything a mana mage would want and on top of that give a 15% increased cast range, it would make this item MANDATORY in every build possible. Thus, very bad as it would not worsen the current situation where mages are bound to buy specific items. Concept is not bad, but problem is making this item almost mandatory for every mages.
Neriticc (EUW)
: Tryndamere is very fun to play against.
What ppl don't understand is whenever they make these statements, chances are that the ennemy is fed to hell and there is no way you can solo that champ. I could be comparing your post to all fed assassins on how they 1 shot you in a matter of a second I could be comparing your post to all fed bruisers and tanks that just won't die I could be comparing you post to all fed mages that removes 80% of your health with a single spell ANY FED CHAMPION is not fun to play against, some more than others.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hochelaga,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-14T14:34:26.535+0000) > > Riot mentionned it multiple times, > > Giving back Karma's shield bomb would be excesively too powerful and her other spells would suffer major nerfs in order to balance her out which would eventually make her a shield bot bomber again. > > By removing her shield bomb, it allows Riot to put more power in other spells. It's not like she began to be problematic **after** shieldbomb removal and supercharging her passive (due to shieldbomb removal). She was only buffed pre 5.10 and 5.10 was pretty much relocating her power (passive buff, RW damage --> bonus root, RE damage --> bonus shield). Also, 5.10 pretty much killed mage karma since it removed bonus damage from 2 out of 3 her mantra choices. Her passive reduces double the cooldown now in comparison to pre 5.10 (shieldbomb removal) kit. Adding massive main target shield, good AoE shield and significant haste with so ridicoulus mantra uptime is straight up asking for problems. People were saying this 3 years ago (which you can read yourself in 5.10 patch notes yourself) and exeactly that happened. Even with shieldbomb you couldnt just straight up spam RE even if you land damage portion of it on all 5 enemies. with 2s/1s reduction on her passive RE would reduce up to 10 sec of her R CD. Q would be additional 2/4 sec and W would be another 2/4/6 sec. 10+4+6 = 20s in total **if you land 2 man Q, full W (3 ticks) and 5 man RE on enemy team (which was very hard if you werent steamrolling into them)** Landing all of that is hard. Q is the easiest since you just wait for enemy team to clump together. If you walked towards enemy team with W linked to land 2nd and 3rd tick enemy team would blow you up. 5 man RE (on enemy team) was rarely happenin since its such a perfect scenario it screams "RARE". RQ and RE were similar in passive efficiency (RQ being easier since you dont need ally), RW was the weakest. Also, her 1v1 or 1v2 are way stronger now that they were pre 5.10. You get way more cdr from your base abilities and before only your Q, RQ and RE could proc passive on multiple targets. Karma way less of an issue pre 5.10 than she is now. Karma will be much more of an issue post her mini-rework than she is now: - Frontloading RQ damage and making RQ detonation even more insignificant | Everybody likes no-counterplay damage - Enemy RW damage and scalings boost | Her tether is now 2 procs (cast and end) instead of being a 6 ticks DoT like it was long time ago making it way easier to land more damage (cast alone is half the damage and you could negate alot of damage by breaking the tether before a.k.a. counterplay) - Ally RW chain cc or damage nuking with (almost) instant double casts - RE shield buffs in skirmishes making her early/mid game RE stronger
> [{quoted}](name=Rakshasa Ranja,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-11-14T23:44:32.122+0000) > > It's not like she began to be problematic **after** shieldbomb removal and supercharging her passive (due to shieldbomb removal). > She was only buffed pre 5.10 and 5.10 was pretty much relocating her power (passive buff, RW damage --> bonus root, RE damage --> bonus shield). Also, 5.10 pretty much killed mage karma since it removed bonus damage from 2 out of 3 her mantra choices. > > Her passive reduces double the cooldown now in comparison to pre 5.10 (shieldbomb removal) kit. Adding massive main target shield, good AoE shield and significant haste with so ridicoulus mantra uptime is straight up asking for problems. People were saying this 3 years ago (which you can read yourself in 5.10 patch notes yourself) and exeactly that happened. > > Even with shieldbomb you couldnt just straight up spam RE even if you land damage portion of it on all 5 enemies. > with 2s/1s reduction on her passive RE would reduce up to 10 sec of her R CD. Q would be additional 2/4 sec and W would be another 2/4/6 sec. > 10+4+6 = 20s in total > **if you land 2 man Q, full W (3 ticks) and 5 man RE on enemy team (which was very hard if you werent steamrolling into them)** > Landing all of that is hard. Q is the easiest since you just wait for enemy team to clump together. If you walked towards enemy team with W linked to land 2nd and 3rd tick enemy team would blow you up. 5 man RE (on enemy team) was rarely happenin since its such a perfect scenario it screams "RARE". RQ and RE were similar in passive efficiency (RQ being easier since you dont need ally), RW was the weakest. Also, her 1v1 or 1v2 are way stronger now that they were pre 5.10. You get way more cdr from your base abilities and before only your Q, RQ and RE could proc passive on multiple targets. > > Karma way less of an issue pre 5.10 than she is now. > Karma will be much more of an issue post her mini-rework than she is now: > - Frontloading RQ damage and making RQ detonation even more insignificant | Everybody likes no-counterplay damage > - Enemy RW damage and scalings boost | Her tether is now 2 procs (cast and end) instead of being a 6 ticks DoT like it was long time ago making it way easier to land more damage (cast alone is half the damage and you could negate alot of damage by breaking the tether before a.k.a. counterplay) > - Ally RW chain cc or damage nuking with (almost) instant double casts > - RE shield buffs in skirmishes making her early/mid game RE stronger The point of Riot wasn't how frequently you could spam that bombshield combo. It was actually how hard there is a counter and actually not get hit by that source of dmg. Ivern's shield takes a little time to explode, Sion too. But in the case of Karma, it would be instant and there was no counterplay. Given the huge AOE and potential dmg that shield bomb offered, it would be too powerful and Riot couldn't give her more potentials in other spells.
: What I Wanted For Karma That Meddler and NeuroCat Didn't Want
Riot mentionned it multiple times, Giving back Karma's shield bomb would be excesively too powerful and her other spells would suffer major nerfs in order to balance her out which would eventually make her a shield bot bomber again. By removing her shield bomb, it allows Riot to put more power in other spells.
: Have you ever EVER played Karma? I'm not hyping numbers. She literally bursts up to 730 Move speed near full build, without activating surplus move speed bonuses. It decays quick enough, but that's where the burst gets up to. I run around on a base 490-520 move speed. Celerity. Magical Footwear. Sometimes Medallion. Nimbus Cloak. items. It all stacks. {{item:3174}} + {{item:3504}} + {{item:2065}} = what base Mana Regen? Oh right..... 250%. That's 250/25 = 10 *5 AP = + 50 AP. Athene's Base AP is 30. That puts the minimal amount at 80 AP. If I also go {{item:3311}} and forgoe the Medallion (usually support) That's 90 AP. ---------------- The game in question you are referring to I was 11/2/20. Kills on my team were 58. That's 31/58 = What? Oh. 53.44%. Who fed the most on the other team? Oh Right. The mid Fizz I stomped, the Udyr I stomped, and the Kai Sai I stomped. Yeah. Zilean was probably a joke and my team did have an easy time of him. But it was me killing all the actual momentous champs. Fizz kills: Compare My champion kill map to Fizz's Champion Death map. They are identical. Except reversed. The cluster in which I have a ton of kills, he has a ton of deaths. I had spread participation in all lanes down the river, but 7 of my kills were concentrated in Mid. Fizz on the other hand has 2 kills Bot lane, 1 kill mid, and one top. He died mid lane 9 times..... I was part of every single one of them. I also First blooded Brand, and was part of every objective. ---------- You're picking apart the one game where I don't have multiple move speed mage items to say I don't build move speed. You have to be adaptive to teams. In that game, I needed SV to counter fizz hard. That is all that is. Check my other Karma games. --------- Lich bane on mobility with Karma does more damage to a turret than a Death cap, is safer, more reliable. You can always try to come up with singular arguments within a whole, but it doesn't nothing to contradict the argument that I'm more well rounded, do more overall damage, and carry more than your builds do. You don't have room to build 7-8 items. (I didn't need Lich bane except as an afterthought I was already winning hard). ---------- How does a Fizz who has already Trickstered and can't break the leash or an Udyr who runs slower than you..... going to break the Leash? Oh. The only ways they can break it: Kill me. Which I won't let them. --------- I don't need to group as Karma. i solo her. I am not a E bot. https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2908186473/243999882?tab=overview eh wth. I I'll record the part i'm talking about. (Sorry I don't care about editing, headphones, whatever. This was this morning. Loss, but pretty much a 1v5 too) https://youtu.be/Acnw2vMnqV4 -------------- The game we're talking about is buried on op.gg, so I can't tell what runes I was using, but...... 1. The AP items alone make up 180 AP. 2. 20 AP from Sorcery/Insight (Net 200 AP) Gathering Storm got up to +40 (Net 240 AP) Some 27 AP in Celerity. We had an Infernal Drake. So...... Base of about 288 AP, and some 320 AP when E'd or R'd.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gN1QyoBR,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T02:13:44.902+0000) > > Have you ever EVER played Karma? > > I'm not hyping numbers. > She literally bursts up to 730 Move speed near full build, without activating surplus move speed bonuses. It decays quick enough, but that's where the burst gets up to. > > I run around on a base 490-520 move speed. Celerity. Magical Footwear. Sometimes Medallion. Nimbus Cloak. items. It all stacks. > > {{item:3174}} + {{item:3504}} + {{item:2065}} = what base Mana Regen? Oh right..... 250%. That's 250/25 = 10 *5 AP = + 50 AP. Athene's Base AP is 30. > > That puts the minimal amount at 80 AP. If I also go {{item:3311}} and forgoe the Medallion (usually support) That's 90 AP. > > ---------------- > > The game in question you are referring to I was 11/2/20. Kills on my team were 58. That's 31/58 = What? Oh. 53.44%. > > Who fed the most on the other team? > > Oh Right. The mid Fizz I stomped, the Udyr I stomped, and the Kai Sai I stomped. Yeah. Zilean was probably a joke and my team did have an easy time of him. But it was me killing all the actual momentous champs. > > Fizz kills: Compare My champion kill map to Fizz's Champion Death map. They are identical. Except reversed. The cluster in which I have a ton of kills, he has a ton of deaths. I had spread participation in all lanes down the river, but 7 of my kills were concentrated in Mid. Fizz on the other hand has 2 kills Bot lane, 1 kill mid, and one top. He died mid lane 9 times..... I was part of every single one of them. > > I also First blooded Brand, and was part of every objective. > > ---------- > > You're picking apart the one game where I don't have multiple move speed mage items to say I don't build move speed. You have to be adaptive to teams. In that game, I needed SV to counter fizz hard. That is all that is. Check my other Karma games. > > --------- > > Lich bane on mobility with Karma does more damage to a turret than a Death cap, is safer, more reliable. You can always try to come up with singular arguments within a whole, but it doesn't nothing to contradict the argument that I'm more well rounded, do more overall damage, and carry more than your builds do. You don't have room to build 7-8 items. > > (I didn't need Lich bane except as an afterthought I was already winning hard). > > ---------- > > How does a Fizz who has already Trickstered and can't break the leash or an Udyr who runs slower than you..... going to break the Leash? Oh. The only ways they can break it: Kill me. Which I won't let them. > > --------- > > I don't need to group as Karma. i solo her. I am not a E bot. > > https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2908186473/243999882?tab=overview > eh wth. I I'll record the part i'm talking about. > > (Sorry I don't care about editing, headphones, whatever. This was this morning. Loss, but pretty much a 1v5 too) > > https://youtu.be/Acnw2vMnqV4 > > -------------- > > > The game we're talking about is buried on op.gg, so I can't tell what runes I was using, but...... > > 1. The AP items alone make up 180 AP. > > 2. 20 AP from Sorcery/Insight (Net 200 AP) > > Gathering Storm got up to +40 (Net 240 AP) > > Some 27 AP in Celerity. > > We had an Infernal Drake. > > > So...... Base of about 288 AP, and some 320 AP when E'd or R'd. To make it clear, i'm talking about the game you linked in your main comment. You had NO shurelia or Frostfang. So let's forget that extra 30 AP you can get with Athene Game lasted 31 minutes. So I assume that you had 24 AP from gathering storm for most of your kills If you took celerity instead of transcendance, you literally just wasted 10% extra cooldown stats that's worth nothing That AP value you claim is still being far ahead of the actual value even with infernal dragon. Your AP MIGHT fluctuate with all those boosts from your shield, nimbus cloak etc. But that is the most unreliable AP you can get and you don't benefit from it again in a while. In the game you just posted as a ''proof'' of your build, you BARELY used that lich bane auto attack which is literally the main goal of getting that item. Wasting stats again. You were beyond tanky in that game, yet you stood behind most of the fight, shielding yourself instead of your allies and missed several Q's during the most important part of the teamfight. The game you posted is literally on a silver 3-4-5 ELO rank. Post me something in diamond elo from your main account with that same build and see how you perform. I have played over 2700 Ranked Karma games since season 2 and made it to master in season 6. So I do believe I know what i'm talking about saying this build might not work.
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Hochelaga

Level 166 (NA)
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