: If pro play died off, so would casual play.
Meddler (NA)
: We've sunk enormous amounts of time into Ryze, Azir and Kalista over the years because of how much better they perform in pro than regular play. In order to put that time into other champs and projects that need work too we decided this year that for a while we'd just balance those champs so they weren't pick/ban, too close to it, or on a path to it, in pro. Our suspicion is that, in his current state, Ryze will be too dominant at Worlds so he's on our radar for possible nerfs. We'll probably hold off on those until 8.18 or 8.19 and then do them then, assuming they still look needed, given 8.19 is the World's patch.
I'm sorry Meddler but at this point it has become obvious that pro play needs to be dropped entire or given a completely different structure. Now I realize that the founders of Riot wanted an Esport. They looked at Dota, they looked at Starcraft Brood War and they dreamed big. Brood War gave a lot of people, including myself, a false impression of Esports future. People, myself included, thought Esports could be like real sports with games being played by millions for decades or centuries. We were wrong. A focus on Esports causes a brief high energy burst then a long bleed out. The video game industry is so different from the sports industry that comparison is virtually invalid. Changes made to the game for the benifit of pro teams tend to erode what casual players enjoy about the game. Players feel punished for wanting to play champions like Taliah, Ryze or Galio because they are held hostage by a tiny minority of players. Season 8 proved that when pro play is "fast paced" and "exciting" Solo Queue and Normal Draft are a wasteland of snowballing and one shot combo's. The "best case scenario," for pure Esport titles is a small cult following like BW or Meele. Perhaps Riot would have been happy as an (unironic) small indie company. But they hit mega success and have a massive playerbase to take care of. At the risk of being hyperbolic attempting to balance for ESports is an anchor around League's neck that will throttle the game eventually.
: Sorry but bringing up the Zoe thing is this thread is fucking stupid. The whole Zoe situation is a massive fucking circlejerk and all you're doing is contributing to that. Yes some people genuinely dislike her, ya she might be frustrating to play against, but bringing her up as a major problem with this season when things like snowball, broken Rune system and damage are WAY more pressing issues is not appropriate.
You underestimate just how much one champion can warp the game. Release Eve got changed because she was single handed destroying the game for new players. It is a perfect example of how bad decision making at Riot has been. They played with fire with {{champion:157}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:7}} for years in the player frustration department. Then they doused the playerbase with napalm with Zoe.
: Because Zoe mains will have to put up with a roller coaster of balance changes until they gut her completely then evaulate Zoe and make her kit strong again but healthier. Instead they're love tapping her into slowly weak but nothing becomes healthy about her regardless of the nerfs. She needs a hard mechanical update, akin to rek'sai or aatrox.
Rioter Comments
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: >Making him a healthy assassin would require removing or reworking his passive, Ultimate and Troll Pole to the point where it alienates Fizz mains. and changing his class to fighter/skirmisher wouldnt? lel
Any change will alienate some but at least he could still be a slippery hard to kill champion.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Seconded. I'd argue that balance around pro play has resulted in this exodus from League.
It is part of a larger series of problems at Riot that have been there from early seasons but have finally come to a head.
: Too many champions are dumpstered because of pros.
Yeah I feel like the attempt to balance the game with the pro scene in mind has been a dismal failure.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Yasuo got blasted by 8.15 (took the brunt of the IE nerfs [which were huge] without the balancing factor of the Stormrazor buffs). We wanted to avoid pre-emptive buffing him, despite knowing it was power down, but I expect him to be weak on 8.15. (Pro is playing on 8.14). We aren't going through with the Yasuo buffs as Scruffy stated, because we can't get good alignment on a changelist that is not frustration up (and he is a high risk buff candidate), but I suspect he'll be weak for this patch as a result.
I hear that bluntness and speaking up "even if it hurts" is an integral part of Riot culture so here goes: While you guys are being humble after the rolling disaster that was season 8, the failure of Clash, the recent sexual harassment scandal and general decline of quality in everything but skins it is time to get it through your collective skulls that champions like {{champion:157}}, {{champion:7}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:107}} and {{champion:142}} should receive major gameplay reworks based SOLELY on the fact that they cause constant frustration across all elo's to the majority of players. The unwillingness to address these types of champions is probably Riot's biggest weakness in live gameplay.
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: This should honestly become a DAILY thread until we get some form of response. I'd settle for a "shut the fuck up" from Riot.
> [{quoted}](name=Sèx Crazed Eve,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UJGbtPjE,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-07-16T17:57:50.163+0000) > > This should honestly become a DAILY thread until we get some form of response. I'd settle for a "shut the fuck up" from Riot. I am considering your suggestion.
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: about the sejuani nerfs on pbe mr meddler
Sums it up pretty accurately.
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: Is Yi at all a healthy champ?
Yi has NEVER been a good design.
Rioter Comments
: The really tricky part (as a fellow S1 vet), is that assassins were never really intended to exist in the game. They more became a class through demand and entertainment market pressures. # A history lesson. Seriously, look at the "assassins" that use to exist before season ~3 (idr exactly when riot started to recognize them in an official way), they were all things like "fighters" or "mages". They didn't really exist as they do now. Then people started playing extremely high risk, high reward styles by stacking pure offensive items and then using their skill, or just editing together montages, to completely negate the fact that they were dancing past instant death the whole time. Riot said "hey people seem to be entertained by this, we should create this kind of play style for the normal player" and so the ~~mobile AD mage~~ Asssassin was born. Now don't get me wrong, the first few iterations of this (from my memory) were OP due mostly to mechanical undervaluing by riot, but their damage wasn't particularly spectacular, because riot tried to maintain the damage division (**abilities **scale with **ability **power and auto **attacks **scale with **attack **damage. simple i know). But what they found was that a champion like {{champion:105}} was completely worthless if you couldn't use his innate mechanical advantage as a crutch. Yet this was painfully obvious and people fucking HATED these first attempts, because they were blatantly unfair, but also impossible to balance because mechanics are expensive to change for balancing, and the only realistic method of nerfing them through damage, set to low enough to be balanced, then you just end up back at a fighter rather than the assassin fantasy. So instead they started to let AD creep into the role of the ability power. Suddenly you could have extremely squishy champions which could be both highly mobile and have excessively high burst damage. The 3 champions that really kicked off this trend were {{champion:107}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:121}}, because news flash Diana was sold as an assassin first and fighter second on her release, but she was kind of that bridge of "assassins are just mobile burst". There was one small problem that riot over looked with these new blurring of the lines and attempts to appeal to this "I'm OP and unstoppable all out offensive machine of carnage" called the "assassin fantasy"... OTHER CHAMPIONS USE THESE STATS. The result was basically that all of the old fighters started to get OP, so they overcompensated the tanks, which lead to a tank meta. Then they said "well that's not really fair so let's buff ADCs". Now the ADCs were doing too much damage to everyone (including assassins) which really kinda fucking hurt the whole "unstoppable death machine" vibe they were going for (oh yeah and slow bruisers now juggernauts were complaining). Then they said, you know that's a little bit too much again so we should probably try to bring assassins back into the fray, but then tanks found that their defensive stats were meaningless when the assassins also had auto attacks (what are now call skirmishers) which were now designed to completely obliterate tanks on account of the ADC buffs. Then after a few rounds of that they said "fuck, we forgot about the slow fighter types", then we saw the juggernaut update. Then it became FoTY, which classes were getting "~~reworks~~ global buffs", and everyone just kinda expected them to start dominating the meta again, then by the time we got around to tanks rito was like "well shit these are actually a really bad idea, but we're kinda committed now (sry supports)". Simply put, the existence of assassins has been the cancer that spread across this game and created the arms race of damage centered gameplay. All of this could've been alleviated if they'd just introduced a 3rd primary stat (they're throwing true damage around a lot now, that could've been a decent way to balance assassins, low scaling high CD burst damage + mobility). But now they've bitten off more they can chew and been hemorrhaging players. (I literally called this exact cause like 4 years ago if they didn't hit the breaks). ____ All the while mages are sitting here like {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}: "Tanks don't die. Assassins still kill us instantly. Marksmen clear faster and deal more reliable damage." {{sticker:cass-cry}} : "Can we please get some decent itemization?" {{sticker:leblanc-funny}}: "Ha, i'm an assassin now mother fuckers!... wait what?" {{sticker:sg-ahri-1}}: "Who the fuck thought this >> {{champion:90}} << was a good idea?! Do any of the devs even play the mages?" ___ Probably missed somethings, this was all from memory, but the shifts in meta were kinda position based for some time during this while the arms race was just allowed to continue. What I call the "era of lee sin".
Pity this will probably be buried. I'd write it up as a stand alone post though. Very well done.
: @OP I agree with your overall point, but I'll have you back up off of Mr. Gygax before you inspire me to demand satisfaction, sir.
: If you could alter Assassins to remain a class, yet function healthily, what would you do/propose?
Assassins would need to be build around being a follow up to allied damage. Executing low health targets. Or as Alpha damage for their team mates to follow up on. Instead of being a 100-0 then escape class. To do this the entire damage Meta would need to be gutted. Champions would actually have to have well defined roles and not everyone could be a 100-0 killing machine. All Assassins would need to be reworked to have more utility and interactions with team mates. The line between "Diver" and "Assassin" would probably get pretty darn blurry.
Hayaishi (NA)
: New runes give so much free stats and damage that it's impossible for this game to be balanced within the next 2 seasons atleast. I think the new runes were a unnecesary change.
I agree with you but Assassins have always been a problem in the game for one reason or another.
Rioter Comments
: You must not have played in season 4 or early season 5 then. Those games lasted a while, averaged like 40-45 min.
Season 1 and 2 frequently went 40-50 mins with half way balanced teams.
Rioter Comments
Swegmec (NA)
: Buffing towers would fix multiple other gameplay issues
I feel like there is an irreconcilable difference between people who want league games to be 15 min games like World of Warships, Overwatch and CoD and people who want the old fashioned 40 min Dota style games.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Slower fights are more tactical, supportive champions like tanks being more viable encourages teamwork. Damage in this game is too high too early.
The blurring of burst damage vs sustained damage over the past 3-4 seasons has had a devastating effect on champion identity.
JRobin31 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Holgranth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KBGQLvGE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-21T15:12:17.294+0000) > Pushing a narrow view of &amp;quot;Jungle vs Jungle interactions,&amp;quot; is disheartening. Jungle was more diverse and better back in Seasons 1 and 3 when there were less champions but more variety in play styles. I agree that pushing Jungle vs Jungle interaction is disheartening. It's almost like laners are designing the jungle and they subconsciously think that the enemy jungler is their 'lane opponent'. Because scuttle now feels like a way to 'punish' junglers that 'roam' to 'other lanes', lol. I think you may be right about RIOT's continued release of champions. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to release new champions with new ideas, but it seems evident that RIOT itself is not able to keep up with themselves ever since they broke the hundred champion limit. It's like their ability to manage all the champions, in addition to all the other changes they make, has been spiraling out of control. Just to be clear: I don't think it's a problem for players at all. I definitely think the designers are unable to keep up with their own creations at this point. And on top of that RIOT starting releasing very controversial designs for champions - things that they vetoed early on as bad ideas made it into the game because of the obsession with new champion release. Look, RIOT, if you can't keep up with your own designs, then you know you've made too many champions. The litmus test on that was never on players; it always rested 100% on design team capabilities.
Very well said. I'd write that up and post it as it's own thread.
Rioter Comments
Av3lon (NA)
: While I'm not a game developer by any means, but I have done my share of analytics and complex system decomposition, design, integration and test. I've also been around this community for the better part of a decade, and find that a lot of what OP has voiced resonates strongly with me. I'm very curious how well established Riot's systems engineering methodologies are, especially in terms of architecture and on the implementation and validation end. Often times it seems that some of the changes we see do not look like they are thought through well enough in the sense that not all the major touch points have been revalidated or iterated on when making a change, or that the context for why certain things were set up the way that they have been in the past. If you do not have that entire architectural picture of the current state, any changes you introduce propagate a degree of risk. Sometimes that risk is acceptable and mitigatable as you might need to push out the change to get more data before fine tuning. What I do not find acceptable is pushing changes with risks that are either not well understood or not understood at all, as it results in playing a lot of catch up before it can be resolved. I would assume that having so much data coming in from the player base (both feedback on the forums and actual gameplay data) is a huge boon to quickly identifying and dismantling these risks and implementing fixes, but we don't always see that either.
The stupidest decisions I have ever seen were made by very smart people with only some of the skills and information needed. Or no common sense.
Leto GT (EUW)
: I kinda felt betrayed by the jungle changes to be honest. I felt like the role I've been playing since season 2 received some random changes like the whole jungle role meant nothing, like it didn't deserved a thorough work. I believe those changes are disrespectful toward the jungle job and what it represents in the game but also toward the whole jungler community.
I agree that it feels like a betrayal of trust. Either do it properly or don't do it at all.
: As long as you don't have Pyke as your best man, you'll be fine. :)
The best man was originally the best swordsman the groom knew or could hire to protect the wedding party from rival suitors or enraged family members of the bride.
: thats pretty cool you met your wife on league.... i cant even make a friend and people are out there making babies
It was a freak occurrence. Re: friends social skills are like every other skill you have to sharpen them. It took me years I was very cringe between 11-19. Learning how to express yourself honestly and with just enough passion and conviction is a journey in and of itself.
: I think the gold meta was less about shifting the meta and more so people discovering aspects of the game. For a long time GP5 items were seen as a crutch for bad players until it caught on that hey, maybe if you're good at last hitting _and_ have GP5 items, you can make like double gold. Plus there was usually something once/twice a season where someone finds a new, cheese way to play. Sadly, we're never going to go back to that initial time of discovery where every tool was unknown and all it'd take for a meta change is for someone to realize armor yellows might be more useful than dodge runes. Game has become too figured out and people know too much to let great ideas slip under the radar. Maybe it's finally time for Riot to do League of Legends 2...
S2 Jungle was undervalued, Riot went overboard in nerfing how much gold you could get from the Jungle. PS and HoG on every champion was definitely a result of players figuring out economics but S2 Jungle was a total mess.
: This is interesting because it highlights dev replacement and a shifting version of the game as opposed to other games. League's original design team isn't really there anymore. The guys who made Season 0-3 are mostly gone or working on other projects. In their place was new blood. I'm going to haphazard that a large amount played 1-3 league. Still, all this said, the original team is gone. In their place are people who are trying to design/work on a game that didn't start with them. Making changes to an existing framework. Can you imagine being given an entire theme park and told to make it work better? Add new rides? Change/make judgement calls on the food that's being served? What will _also_ be interesting is 3+ years from now. I'd haphazard that the kids who grew up with league (We're talking 2011/2012 middle schoolers) are now entering college or partway into it. In 3+ years time they'll be entering the work force with degrees. These are people whose experiences were molded and shaped by old league and perhaps current. We'll see those people who played league try to work at Riot and bring their ideas of what the game used to be, currently is and what it could be into Riot. Plus I'd say it's harder these days to work on League than the old days. Champions (in RIot's own words) **MUST** fulfill something new and never before seen in the game. It's way tougher to create something completely new and unique than it is to add a dash/shield/heal/nuke onto a kit and call it a new champ ala Season 2.
All available evidence is that the new blood have no real idea what has been tried before or how the framework functions. Hence they are recycling old mistakes and recreating old problems. I remember the Season 2 changes to jungle in particular were similar is goals and absolutely horrible in execution. The Meta all year was to grab 3-4 gold per 10 items and play as the second support. Level 2 ganks with boots 3 potions Shyvana were or Twitch were the cheese of the day. Now we have shifted to a different type of Jungler being dominant instead of actually diversifying the role.
: Dude congratz on getting married and all that stuff, but seriously DO NOT sponsor this game, DO NOT have that cake. They don't deserve it, and we both know it. Had multiple accounts since beta, it's simply embarrassing. I don't know what the fuck Tryndamere and Ryze are doing right now, but I guess money is money.
Probably going to have a small beach wedding. Not going to make or break Riot either way.
Risen29 (NA)
: The OP is correct. I think it's a similar situation to what happened with HoTS. The got a new lead dev, who then proceded to rape the game design because he either did not understand why heroes had been designed the way they were, or was consciously choosing to throw that out in favor of pursuing a goal contrary to the original game design. Gbay was right about one thing in one of his videos - The death of most big games like this comes because the devs start ignoring what the players like and want from the game, barreling ahead to force the game in a new direction that fails to gain new players but only alienates the existing playerbase. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIi2oJiqO00 That's what killed HoTS for me. It went something like this: "Hey, let's give effective AoE waveclear to every new warrior and assassin, and buff it on existing ones. Because players like blowing up lots of minions, it's fun and statisfying". Don't you realize there is an entire class, the specialist, that was designed to have the best waveclear so they could be the class that manages the waves, sieges, defends against sieges, and generally handles the macro for the team? "No fucks are given. I don't want any of that macro shit in my game anyway. I want everyone deathballing over the forced map objectives all game long." Then what is the point of a specialist? "We'll just change their class definition to be 'whatever doesn't fit in the other three classes'. Boom, done. Problem solved." But, that still doesn't give us a reason to play the specialist. Because now they are just subpar damage dealers with random utility. Nobody actually needs their utility to win, in the same way they need a tank, DPS, or healer to win. "While we're at it, let's nerf sieging ability in general and make everything more focused on the map objective than it already is. And let's make it so other classes can easily take merc camps too. That was the point where I left and never looked back. They basically removed an entire class from the game. The class that was actually the funnest for me because it was the most strategic and macro oriented. A testament to their failure of vision is the fact that in 3 years they have released dozens of new heroes but only two new specialists. Turns out that defining the specialist as "a dumping ground for whatever doesn't fit in the other three roles" isn't a very effective framework for creative development. Or, maybe all the people who actually had creative talent on that team left a long time ago. It's a shame, because the HoTS specialists were some of the most unique and interesting MOBA heroes. One of the reasons I like Jungle is also because I am more objective/splitpush/macro oriented. And Jungle has more freedom to do it than top lane does. I wonder if LoL is going down a similar path.
I LOVED the idea of the specialist and siege classes in HoTS. Had to pick one game in the end, went with League, best decision ever never would have gotten together with my twuu wuv otherwise. Sad to hear Blizzard crapped on the unique elements of their game though.
Draffyr (NA)
: "Don't blame CertainlyT, blame his fellow designers, blame everyone who didn't say 'no that is a bad idea,'." This is basically something I've been thinking for awhile now about what's going on in Riot. It's been feeling like there are too many people saying "hey, you know what would be cool?" and not enough people reigning them in. It's incredibly valuable to have people around that have innovative ideas, but there _have_ to be people that are willing and able to mold the plausible ideas into something workable and say no to the ideas that are too much.
Every Rock Star needs a boring manager to keep them on track or they die of an OD in a trashed hotel room with a dead hooker.
: I remember back in season 5 I thought I would just be a Nautilus jungle main. The joke was on me looking back on things.
I finally gave up on maining Nautilus last year. I mained him since his release day. At the time the furor on the old forum was that Sejauni had just been released and Nautilus did the same job better.
: There have been tons of thread expressing why some champions maybe Op on release yet Riot still released them as they are. I never said design and balance was easy so maybe you should take that quote into consideration yourself.
: Ever since season five Riot goal was to make every new champion as OP as possible, aside from Taliyah and Kled name me which one wasn’t a clusterfuck on release since Ekko.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Design is hard. Balance is hard. Crunch is hard. Designers are signing up for a hard job. It usually takes 2-3 passes at a champion post release to make them a truly great addition to League. Instead of accepting that and releasing fewer, better champions we are still getting too many half baked releases.
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