Rioter Comments
: This should honestly become a DAILY thread until we get some form of response. I'd settle for a "shut the fuck up" from Riot.
> [{quoted}](name=Sèx Crazed Eve,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UJGbtPjE,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-07-16T17:57:50.163+0000) > > This should honestly become a DAILY thread until we get some form of response. I'd settle for a "shut the fuck up" from Riot. I am considering your suggestion.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: about the sejuani nerfs on pbe mr meddler
Sums it up pretty accurately.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: You must not have played in season 4 or early season 5 then. Those games lasted a while, averaged like 40-45 min.
Season 1 and 2 frequently went 40-50 mins with half way balanced teams.
Swegmec (NA)
: Buffing towers would fix multiple other gameplay issues
I feel like there is an irreconcilable difference between people who want league games to be 15 min games like World of Warships, Overwatch and CoD and people who want the old fashioned 40 min Dota style games.
Rioter Comments
: Slower fights are more tactical, supportive champions like tanks being more viable encourages teamwork. Damage in this game is too high too early.
The blurring of burst damage vs sustained damage over the past 3-4 seasons has had a devastating effect on champion identity.
JRobin31 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Holgranth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KBGQLvGE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-21T15:12:17.294+0000) > Pushing a narrow view of "Jungle vs Jungle interactions," is disheartening. Jungle was more diverse and better back in Seasons 1 and 3 when there were less champions but more variety in play styles. I agree that pushing Jungle vs Jungle interaction is disheartening. It's almost like laners are designing the jungle and they subconsciously think that the enemy jungler is their 'lane opponent'. Because scuttle now feels like a way to 'punish' junglers that 'roam' to 'other lanes', lol. I think you may be right about RIOT's continued release of champions. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to release new champions with new ideas, but it seems evident that RIOT itself is not able to keep up with themselves ever since they broke the hundred champion limit. It's like their ability to manage all the champions, in addition to all the other changes they make, has been spiraling out of control. Just to be clear: I don't think it's a problem for players at all. I definitely think the designers are unable to keep up with their own creations at this point. And on top of that RIOT starting releasing very controversial designs for champions - things that they vetoed early on as bad ideas made it into the game because of the obsession with new champion release. Look, RIOT, if you can't keep up with your own designs, then you know you've made too many champions. The litmus test on that was never on players; it always rested 100% on design team capabilities.
Very well said. I'd write that up and post it as it's own thread.
Rioter Comments
Av3lon (NA)
: While I'm not a game developer by any means, but I have done my share of analytics and complex system decomposition, design, integration and test. I've also been around this community for the better part of a decade, and find that a lot of what OP has voiced resonates strongly with me. I'm very curious how well established Riot's systems engineering methodologies are, especially in terms of architecture and on the implementation and validation end. Often times it seems that some of the changes we see do not look like they are thought through well enough in the sense that not all the major touch points have been revalidated or iterated on when making a change, or that the context for why certain things were set up the way that they have been in the past. If you do not have that entire architectural picture of the current state, any changes you introduce propagate a degree of risk. Sometimes that risk is acceptable and mitigatable as you might need to push out the change to get more data before fine tuning. What I do not find acceptable is pushing changes with risks that are either not well understood or not understood at all, as it results in playing a lot of catch up before it can be resolved. I would assume that having so much data coming in from the player base (both feedback on the forums and actual gameplay data) is a huge boon to quickly identifying and dismantling these risks and implementing fixes, but we don't always see that either.
The stupidest decisions I have ever seen were made by very smart people with only some of the skills and information needed. Or no common sense.
: I kinda felt betrayed by the jungle changes to be honest. I felt like the role I've been playing since season 2 received some random changes like the whole jungle role meant nothing, like it didn't deserved a thorough work. I believe those changes are disrespectful toward the jungle job and what it represents in the game but also toward the whole jungler community.
I agree that it feels like a betrayal of trust. Either do it properly or don't do it at all.
: As long as you don't have Pyke as your best man, you'll be fine. :)
The best man was originally the best swordsman the groom knew or could hire to protect the wedding party from rival suitors or enraged family members of the bride.
: thats pretty cool you met your wife on league.... i cant even make a friend and people are out there making babies
It was a freak occurrence. Re: friends social skills are like every other skill you have to sharpen them. It took me years I was very cringe between 11-19. Learning how to express yourself honestly and with just enough passion and conviction is a journey in and of itself.
: I think the gold meta was less about shifting the meta and more so people discovering aspects of the game. For a long time GP5 items were seen as a crutch for bad players until it caught on that hey, maybe if you're good at last hitting _and_ have GP5 items, you can make like double gold. Plus there was usually something once/twice a season where someone finds a new, cheese way to play. Sadly, we're never going to go back to that initial time of discovery where every tool was unknown and all it'd take for a meta change is for someone to realize armor yellows might be more useful than dodge runes. Game has become too figured out and people know too much to let great ideas slip under the radar. Maybe it's finally time for Riot to do League of Legends 2...
S2 Jungle was undervalued, Riot went overboard in nerfing how much gold you could get from the Jungle. PS and HoG on every champion was definitely a result of players figuring out economics but S2 Jungle was a total mess.
: This is interesting because it highlights dev replacement and a shifting version of the game as opposed to other games. League's original design team isn't really there anymore. The guys who made Season 0-3 are mostly gone or working on other projects. In their place was new blood. I'm going to haphazard that a large amount played 1-3 league. Still, all this said, the original team is gone. In their place are people who are trying to design/work on a game that didn't start with them. Making changes to an existing framework. Can you imagine being given an entire theme park and told to make it work better? Add new rides? Change/make judgement calls on the food that's being served? What will _also_ be interesting is 3+ years from now. I'd haphazard that the kids who grew up with league (We're talking 2011/2012 middle schoolers) are now entering college or partway into it. In 3+ years time they'll be entering the work force with degrees. These are people whose experiences were molded and shaped by old league and perhaps current. We'll see those people who played league try to work at Riot and bring their ideas of what the game used to be, currently is and what it could be into Riot. Plus I'd say it's harder these days to work on League than the old days. Champions (in RIot's own words) **MUST** fulfill something new and never before seen in the game. It's way tougher to create something completely new and unique than it is to add a dash/shield/heal/nuke onto a kit and call it a new champ ala Season 2.
All available evidence is that the new blood have no real idea what has been tried before or how the framework functions. Hence they are recycling old mistakes and recreating old problems. I remember the Season 2 changes to jungle in particular were similar is goals and absolutely horrible in execution. The Meta all year was to grab 3-4 gold per 10 items and play as the second support. Level 2 ganks with boots 3 potions Shyvana were or Twitch were the cheese of the day. Now we have shifted to a different type of Jungler being dominant instead of actually diversifying the role.
: Dude congratz on getting married and all that stuff, but seriously DO NOT sponsor this game, DO NOT have that cake. They don't deserve it, and we both know it. Had multiple accounts since beta, it's simply embarrassing. I don't know what the fuck Tryndamere and Ryze are doing right now, but I guess money is money.
Probably going to have a small beach wedding. Not going to make or break Riot either way.
Risen29 (NA)
: The OP is correct. I think it's a similar situation to what happened with HoTS. The got a new lead dev, who then proceded to rape the game design because he either did not understand why heroes had been designed the way they were, or was consciously choosing to throw that out in favor of pursuing a goal contrary to the original game design. Gbay was right about one thing in one of his videos - The death of most big games like this comes because the devs start ignoring what the players like and want from the game, barreling ahead to force the game in a new direction that fails to gain new players but only alienates the existing playerbase. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIi2oJiqO00 That's what killed HoTS for me. It went something like this: "Hey, let's give effective AoE waveclear to every new warrior and assassin, and buff it on existing ones. Because players like blowing up lots of minions, it's fun and statisfying". Don't you realize there is an entire class, the specialist, that was designed to have the best waveclear so they could be the class that manages the waves, sieges, defends against sieges, and generally handles the macro for the team? "No fucks are given. I don't want any of that macro shit in my game anyway. I want everyone deathballing over the forced map objectives all game long." Then what is the point of a specialist? "We'll just change their class definition to be 'whatever doesn't fit in the other three classes'. Boom, done. Problem solved." But, that still doesn't give us a reason to play the specialist. Because now they are just subpar damage dealers with random utility. Nobody actually needs their utility to win, in the same way they need a tank, DPS, or healer to win. "While we're at it, let's nerf sieging ability in general and make everything more focused on the map objective than it already is. And let's make it so other classes can easily take merc camps too. That was the point where I left and never looked back. They basically removed an entire class from the game. The class that was actually the funnest for me because it was the most strategic and macro oriented. A testament to their failure of vision is the fact that in 3 years they have released dozens of new heroes but only two new specialists. Turns out that defining the specialist as "a dumping ground for whatever doesn't fit in the other three roles" isn't a very effective framework for creative development. Or, maybe all the people who actually had creative talent on that team left a long time ago. It's a shame, because the HoTS specialists were some of the most unique and interesting MOBA heroes. One of the reasons I like Jungle is also because I am more objective/splitpush/macro oriented. And Jungle has more freedom to do it than top lane does. I wonder if LoL is going down a similar path.
I LOVED the idea of the specialist and siege classes in HoTS. Had to pick one game in the end, went with League, best decision ever never would have gotten together with my twuu wuv otherwise. Sad to hear Blizzard crapped on the unique elements of their game though.
Draffyr (NA)
: "Don't blame CertainlyT, blame his fellow designers, blame everyone who didn't say 'no that is a bad idea,'." This is basically something I've been thinking for awhile now about what's going on in Riot. It's been feeling like there are too many people saying "hey, you know what would be cool?" and not enough people reigning them in. It's incredibly valuable to have people around that have innovative ideas, but there _have_ to be people that are willing and able to mold the plausible ideas into something workable and say no to the ideas that are too much.
Every Rock Star needs a boring manager to keep them on track or they die of an OD in a trashed hotel room with a dead hooker.
: I remember back in season 5 I thought I would just be a Nautilus jungle main. The joke was on me looking back on things.
I finally gave up on maining Nautilus last year. I mained him since his release day. At the time the furor on the old forum was that Sejauni had just been released and Nautilus did the same job better.
: There have been tons of thread expressing why some champions maybe Op on release yet Riot still released them as they are. I never said design and balance was easy so maybe you should take that quote into consideration yourself.
: Ever since season five Riot goal was to make every new champion as OP as possible, aside from Taliyah and Kled name me which one wasn’t a clusterfuck on release since Ekko.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Design is hard. Balance is hard. Crunch is hard. Designers are signing up for a hard job. It usually takes 2-3 passes at a champion post release to make them a truly great addition to League. Instead of accepting that and releasing fewer, better champions we are still getting too many half baked releases.
Rioter Comments
Nhifu (NA)
: 8 years doesn't make you good.
No it dosen't, I have been consistently mediocre for 8 years, but I have a TON of experience with jungle and jungle changes.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murl0ugh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TyUfUY6c,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-28T17:20:03.579+0000) > > He's been playing jungle for 8 years. I think he is qualified to give his opinion on the changes. > > Hell I'm only 2 years in and I realize the scuttle change is really dumb. If these go through WW is prob gonna be even more pick/ban in Silver elo. Yeah but people say this same shit every big change. "Oh its the worst change ever!!!," EVERY TIME. I'm more in the realm of test it on pbe and give feedback. Not bitch off of theory. Then if you don't like and it still goes through then you can stop playing. Not hard. Not come on a board and bitch about something that no one has tested yet.
> [{quoted}](name=Spiritual Master,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TyUfUY6c,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-28T18:06:17.697+0000) > > Yeah but people say this same shit every big change. "Oh its the worst change ever!!!," EVERY TIME. I'm more in the realm of test it on pbe and give feedback. Not bitch off of theory. Then if you don't like and it still goes through then you can stop playing. Not hard. Not come on a board and bitch about something that no one has tested yet. I have played every meta since before Jungle was even considered a "required" role. I am NOT being hyperbolic when I say this is a the WORST idea I have ever seen. Usually I am optimistic about new changes but this is pure bullshit. The big difference between me and the Rioter that made these changes is 1. I probably have been playing the game longer (more historical knowledge of jungle) 2. I am smart enough to know that I am not qualified to mess with the jungle.
Rioter Comments
: Hey man, adding additional damage to monsters or minions is something that we generally try to avoid if we can. That's not to say that we don't use it ever, but it's usually when we don't have another option. I totally agree that adding percent bonus damage to monsters is an easy way to accomplish a goal of "let Nautilus jungle", but there's also something to be said about us not being overly prescriptive of who can/can't jungle through the use of this mechanic. Personally I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit, at times I feel really strongly we should just do a pass on champs to put them in the jungle by adding bonus damage to monsters, but then other times I do agree with the argument that it's kind of a sloppy way of doing so, and sets us up for problems down the road. Not to mention the fact that Nautilus is currently struggling across the board, not just in the jungle, and some sort of signalling that's just "he's better in the jungle but no where else...sorry laners" is kinda shitty. That being said, we're currently looking at adding another line to this changelist that "should" be skew more heavily towards the jungle - likely early base shield on W or early bonus attack speed to help out with his early clear. Either of those changes will also obviously help out top and support, but should disproportionately aid his jungle clearing.
I strongly disagree with this stance when it comes to Tanks and Jungle. As much as many Rioters (as far as I can tell) would like to pretend that Clear Times are not the single most important factor for Jungle Champions, Clear Times are the single most important factor in Solo Q and Competitive. If you cannot clear camps quickly, get XP, get gold, it doesn't matter what else your kit brings to the table, you are not a good jungle champion. Meanwhile Tanks need to have JUST enough damage to be able to lane while not being so overbearing that they are bruisers with insane utility to boot. But Tank Junglers NEED to be able to clear almost as quickly as Assassins or Fighters. But they cannot deal anywhere near as much damage to champions as those two classes without being insanely OP. I have been playing since early Season 1. I have been playing with my friend group since the dawn of junglers. Riot has NEVER managed to make the Jungle a super diverse, fair and balanced role. It has yo-yo'd between the most powerful role in the game and arguably weaker than support. It has always been tilted towards 2-8 Meta champions or one Meta Archetype. Right now its the level 3 gank Archetype. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, I love the role, I met my (soon to be) wife Jungling as Nautilus, I'll continue to hold out hope that the 7 year erosion of Jungle Nautilus as a viable pick will finally end. But you guys REALLY need to take a long hard look at the jungle role and decide once and for all what it is supposed to be and what champions are supposed to be in it. Then you need to take a good hard look at the PVE mechanics vs PVP mechanics of this game and figure out what the hell the roadmap for jungle is over the next 2-3 years.
: The assasin update has been nothing short of a complete failure
At the end of the day have pure Assassins EVER been in a good spot in League? Assassins are dedicated Squishy Champion killers that lack in all other capacities (Pushing, taking objectives, fighting durable targets, providing utility). They are all or nothing champions with only one win condition. Kill a high value target. The ugly fact is generic fantasy assassins don't work well in this (or most other PVP) game(s). If they are reliable they are living hell to play against. If they are unreliable why would you ever play such a restricted class?
: > So why not just nerf her to a reasonable level instead of destroying her? Because I didn't originally plan her changes correctly, and when it came down to the wire in the 8.4 cycle, my assessment is that we weren't hitting all the right things, which resulted in a situation where I needed to add more and wasn't comfortable/capable of removing what was already slotted into the patch. I've learned a lot from the Zoe balance process and will seek to do better on champions like it in the future.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ykdax9cF,comment-id=000600020000,timestamp=2018-03-01T02:49:27.814+0000) > > Because I didn't originally plan her changes correctly, and when it came down to the wire in the 8.4 cycle, my assessment is that we weren't hitting all the right things, which resulted in a situation where I needed to add more and wasn't comfortable/capable of removing what was already slotted into the patch. > > I've learned a lot from the Zoe balance process and will seek to do better on champions like it in the future. Dude to be fair you REALLY got the greasy end of the stick with Zoe. Lets be real, she did NOT get enough internal testing. My guess is because pre-season was eating up all the play testers time. Without getting into the CertainlyT circle jerk I think we can at least agree that champions he designs often need large amounts of play testing and mechanical changes before they hit a decent spot. Also I have a feeling she will get nerfed AGAIN after people learn to play her. I've already seen a Zoe main snowballing hard and doing well this patch.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 23
Nautilus buffs? He feels terrible in jungle. His support is getting hit with Targons nerfs. His top is nonexistant.
: nah when hes op hes canceroid
Top lane I can agree. Jungle he's fine.....
1nsan1tyy (EUW)
: Hey Meddler, any news on Nautilus buffs to give him somewhere permanent to play? Would be really nice to give him a better clear in the jungle, similar to the Ekko buffs recently?
GigglesO (NA)
: From "Never Surrender, Never Give up" Season2
I remember people saying gg at first blood during season 1.
: We’re making lots of changes and studying all of these issues closely. Appreciate your post - have faith we are exploring ways to address.
Please take your time and don't make any knee jerk decisions. Top Lane has had problems since before I joined league (Nocturne release 2011) things have just come to a head publicly recently. I remember when Vlad was the "end of top lane" I remember when the "MetaGolem" build was the go to for all top laners. I've seen almost every single meta the game has ever had and Riot has never been in a better spot to fix long standing issues.
: ***
: > [{quoted}](name=Holgranth,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=YdirowFc,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-02-16T18:39:02.757+0000) > > A flat champion has tactical cooldowns but no strategic cooldowns (beyond summoner spells). > > If {{champion:1}} Blows up your mid and pushes tower you can attack her knowing she has her ultimate down. > > If {{champion:142}} blows up your mid she has her whole kit back up 15 seconds later. Unless she's OOM she has all her tools all the time. > > You never have to make any "Should I ult or should I save it for next fight," decisions with champions like {{champion:76}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:77}} All their cooldowns are short so their power is constant. But Zoe can easily miss and doesn't have much influential aoe. Annie hardly misses and her aoe can just outright nuke half your team.
That dosen't make her any less flat as a champion.
: So what exactly do you want Azir to do or what place do you want him to be?.. the whole point in the so called "rework" was for him to be in a better spot.. but now he's just being nerfed back to square one.
I mean Azir is overloaded and does too many things too well, but people love him so they tried to keep him as close to the same as possible. Didn't work.
1nsan1tyy (EUW)
: Any word on Nautilus buffs/rework? He currently doesn't have a position. Lacks DPS and tankiness to be played top, lacks utility to be played support.
Can he PLEASE be a Jungler again? His top lane pattern is kinda oppressive, "I'm going to SHOVE this lane down your THROAT," but his jungle is fair, he's slow moving, his ganks are hard but telegraphed, his dueling potential is crap. I've said it before but I bought him 6 years ago to play in jungle and Riot has done nothing but directly and indirectly nerf his jungle for 6 years. Even in the Cinderhulk patch he wasn't S tier like Sejauni and the removal of Gift of the Toadstool shafted him hard.
: What does flat mean in this context?
A flat champion has tactical cooldowns but no strategic cooldowns (beyond summoner spells). If {{champion:1}} Blows up your mid and pushes tower you can attack her knowing she has her ultimate down. If {{champion:142}} blows up your mid she has her whole kit back up 15 seconds later. Unless she's OOM she has all her tools all the time. You never have to make any "Should I ult or should I save it for next fight," decisions with champions like {{champion:76}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:77}} All their cooldowns are short so their power is constant.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 16
Hey Meddler, what do you think a healthy Zoe looks like? Zoe seems to combine a lot of play patterns that Riot has historically had problems balancing. She is a flat champion with no long strategic cool-downs. {{champion:50}} and {{champion:421}} have both received new ultimates to make them less flat and more reliant on long cooldown abilities. {{champion:76}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:77}} and {{champion:60}} are the flattest champions in the game and have always trended towards crazy strong or pathetic weak. She is a one projectile wonder, totally dependent on having massive Q damage. {{champion:76}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:110}} have all been one projectile wonders and all have been reworked away from that play pattern. She's a burst mage that can jump in, blow someone up, then return to safety. {{champion:7}} has a similar play pattern and has been one of the hardest champions to balance in the history of League. (IMHO like Poppy's original ultimate it is a playstyle that has no business being in LoL; but I am bias.) I want to see a healthy Zoe. A Zoe that can win and carry games while feeling fair. I don't see that happening without a GU just based on past champions with similar problems.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 16
Thoughts on Warwick? I love him to bits and I really don't want him becoming pick/ban. Any plans to give him a small nerf if Press the Attack makes him too good?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 9
Meddler could we get a big overview (separate post preferably) on champion identity, game health and managing player expectations? Zoe seems to bring up a lot of questions about champion identity vs game health. Azir, LeBlanc, Master Yi and Akali bring up similar problems. Azir's identity is firmly established in the minds of Azir players as a super powerful, super flexible, mobile hard engage/hard disengage battle mage. LeBlanc has a fanbase that expects her to have range, damage and utility of an immobile mage (think Annie, Veigar) while still having access to best in class mobility thanks to W R W. Akali is a hybrid damage dealing, cooldown resetting, point and click assassin who currently builds somewhat tanky and gets very good sustain through gunblade and passive. All these champions have passionate fanbases that love to play them but bring up a lot of game health questions. They tend to be champions that shut down their intended counterplay when they get ahead. Or lose the "risk" part of their high risk high reward play style, because of player experience or itemization. Playing against a good Twisted Fate who wards and positions correctly is hard but the champions still has major weaknesses. Playing against a good Azir or LeBlanc feels completely unfair.
Meddler (NA)
: Looking for topics for Friday's post
Are we getting close to "Too many Champions"? What happens to game balance if we hit the tipping point?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 24
Hey Meddler I saw on the new "Gameplay Goals" video that you are trying to make Champions viable in multiple roles again. Any chance that Jungle Nautilus will be looked at? I feel very strongly that he could be made viable and balanced by adding bonus damage to monsters to his w or e without giving him too much power as a support or top laner. I bought Nautilus in 2012 to play as a jungler. I am very disappointed that Riot has let this play style get destroyed. Why don't you give struggling junglers bonus damage vs monsters more often? I feel like its a good solution to prevent them from having too much damage vs other champions or pushing power in lane.
: Regarding the newest Riot Video
I really Want Jungle Nautilus back.
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Holgranth

Level 52 (NA)
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