: Proof
> [{quoted}](name=Wínters Dawn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lFNzuWGv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-29T05:16:43.385+0000) > > Proof Go play it yourself. I don't have anything setup to record with.
Rioter Comments
: Fizz Change v2 Heading to PBE
Legit, Neurocat becoming the only designer that I have respect for. I personally haven't seen any other instances where feedback was taken so quickly. It's still only for small changes, but atleast knowing someone is willing to do the job right makes me happy. Unfortunately I still don't agree with the changes though. The Fizz players who want a revert look at everything through rose colored glasses. Fizz seemed stronger with his old kit thus surely a revert would fix all of their frustrations, right? It doesn't work like that. Fizz was strong because the old W had nasty early game kill pressure, which then translated into high snowball potential because of his ranged pick mechanic with his ult, which then translated into a shit ton of kills, a mid laner who has less gold and XP than the support, and a fed assassin which could solo carry back then. Damage was lower for other classes, tank was lower, and the champions of ye oldin' days were as straight and simple as an arrow. There just wasn't any advanced mechanics in items and champions that countered Assassins too hard. Backline carries died instantly on a well placed dive, tanks could no longer solo kill you, and ADC's didn't 2 tap you with auto's. The most annoying mechanics fizz had to deal with were QSS, Sivir shield (When she was meta), and Hexdrinker which in my opinion remains a terribly unbalanced item to this day. Otherwise he was still bad. He still had an abysmal laning phase, mediocre itemization, and absolutely destroyed by enchanters protecting dive targets. Biggest reason this iteration will fail is because it's a matter of how quickly you can deal the damage. You have to make his damage capabilities equivalent to the live version, otherwise it's a straight nerf. But in the case of an onhit like the old mechanic that means there's a specific amount of auto's you're looking for to equate to that damage. If it's too little like 2, then the power of the onhit is gonna be painful and in any situation where he can get off more it'll be disgusting. If you spread it out between more auto's though then suddenly you can't do anything at all. The average dive usually won't even allow for more than an initial Q> W, so 2 auto's, any more and you're going to be hanging out in the open for awhile. In modern league of legends you can easily die in less than half a second to nothing more than an off damage class, never mind the legitimate carry. Even if you can survive longer you'd still be pounded by CC which would still prevent securing a kill and lead to death. I'll download the patch when I wake up and give legitimate feedback at that point, I'm just saying here though that in no way can I see this idea working out besides acting as a way to please the people crying for reverts.
Adalvar (EUW)
: > Your damage increases by a % based on the enemies missing HP. Actually what's also funny is that it's not even a solid 1 second because it's still split between 2 auto attacks, both of which take up swing time during the AA animation. Hum did you forget that his second W was converted to a flat damage one? Damage on 2nd W was: 35/50/65/80/95 with a 90% AP ratio. So you dealt a total of 45/70/95/120/145 with a 130% AP ratio over 1 second instead of 60/90/120/150/180 with a 120% AP ratio. So while the base damage loss was medium, the simple fact that you could front-load Q-W1 was already a boon when it came to trades and assassinations, coupled with the reduced timer, and all that for a 20-30 base damage loss. > Another fun way they nerfed him was by removing the CD reset and splitting the mana refund passive between the auto's. So now his early game laning capability, which was already one of the worst in game, is now even more terrible because he can't use his W to farm as much and if he misses 1 last hit out of 2 he ends up with painfully higher mana costs. No wonder, he got 2 W's with a reduced window between casts...you really expected a reset mechanic on top? > I would've linked the post itself but they removed it from the PBE boards because they don't like feedback. Ah yes the basic circlejerk reply to anything. > No, I don't want a revert. No, the entire community isn't an Echo chamber. Besides half the player base is usually in some form of echo chamber so it isn't anything new, the only difference here though is you probably have something against the champion because he gave you a bad day so you have a ingrained bias. Ah yes the _other stock reply_: "oww you are just complaining because X champ ruined you in lane". That's just lazy. I played my fair share of Fizz pre and post rework...i understood why Fizz needed to lose his old W due to the design issues it brought, but his post-rework W is a pain due to how delayed it is.
It only really reduces the time IF you're hitting it off your Q, otherwise the time doesn't change at all. The second change was nice by having it as flat damage instead of damage scaling with missing HP. Infact I would've atleast taken the second W change over the first. My original complaint was about the first version. I expect him to have more. His kit is still shit, his W is still shit. Removing a pretty damn key mechanic in return for making it SLIGHTLY less shit is annoying. It repeatedly shows that they don't want this champion to have good mechanics and want to keep him at a lower standard than the rest of the roster. How is that a circlejerk reply? I was noting the fun fact that I had originally put this into a feedback post on the PBE forums but they literally removed it from the thread list. Censoring feedback just goes to show how petty Rioters can be. Finally I think we misunderstood each other. My original point is not that the live version of W should stay, but rather that after all this time and waiting for proper Fizz changes this is what they gave us. I originally took you for saying that player feedback couldn't be looked at period because Fizz players are shit and don't know what should be done.
: Hey all, I want to thank you for all the feedback being posted. On these Boards, Reddit, Youtube, Twitter - we've been listening to your thoughts on these Fizz changes. Our initial goal with the new W was to make a lightweight change and see if Fizz players enjoyed a different input for W. But from what we've heard from the majority of Fizz players, you enjoy the current live W over the experimental changes. So we're going to be pulling these changes out from PBE. If there is a clear opportunity for the right Fizz changes in the future, we're open to it, but we don't want to force changes to live that Fizz players don't want. Thank you again for your input. {{champion:105}}
So what about my feedback? Has there been any consideration at all for Fizz getting a rework later down the line? Maybe at the end of the year or mid season next year?
Adalvar (EUW)
: Really? That's your take on the subject? Have you not come to the conclusion that Fizz players are in a echo chamber that refuses to accept anything that isn't his first W? So yeah Fizz players don't enjoy current W to the experimental W, they are just covering their ears and eyes and going "LA, LA, LA, LA" over any change that isn't "revert W". New W spell was a straight up upgrade that cimented Fizz as a assassin and was much more fluid than his current W. FFS, atleast bring the experimental W for a second patch and adjust from there. It's not like you haven't done changes regardless of player resistance to said changes.
Mechanically this doesn't change anything about how he's played. You're still hard locked out of your practical levels of damage by a timer which you have to wait out or play around your horrid ult in order to make use of. It has a 1 second timer compared to 2 but the damage was intelligently lowered to compensate with an even harder handicap than waiting around an extra second. Your damage increases by a % based on the enemies missing HP. Actually what's also funny is that it's not even a solid 1 second because it's still split between 2 auto attacks, both of which take up swing time during the AA animation. If we're talking an optimal situation where your W is in full force then you're looking at about a 17% total increase in the active damage over the old W, but in order for that to happen the enemies HP has to be low enough to proc the full effect. If not then what you're left with is less damage than before. Fizz is already plagued by mechanical issues with his kit that forces him to often sacrifice or miss damage in his kit, specifically the mess that is his E and R. Then you also have the trash can of an ability that is his Q which still remains one of the only simplified targeted dashes still in the game and one of the only 2 dodgeable ones to my knowledge. So in all practical gameplay there is rarely any situation where fizz will pre damage a target to the extent of being able to proc his full W damage, as such in the end he'll almost always end up with less W damage than his current iteration. Another fun way they nerfed him was by removing the CD reset and splitting the mana refund passive between the auto's. So now his early game laning capability, which was already one of the worst in game, is now even more terrible because he can't use his W to farm as much and if he misses 1 last hit out of 2 he ends up with painfully higher mana costs. I would've linked the post itself but they removed it from the PBE boards because they don't like feedback. No, I don't want a revert. No, the entire community isn't an Echo chamber. Besides half the player base is usually in some form of echo chamber so it isn't anything new, the only difference here though is you probably have something against the champion because he gave you a bad day so you have a ingrained bias.
: Fizz Change Heading to PBE
I became a fizz one trick back around the end of 2016 and I've stuck with him until the assassin update. Why are you guys glossing over the other issues of linear gameplay, a kit filled with conflicting mechanics, and his passive which is non existent? Not to mention one of the biggest issues for fizz players and non fizz players has always been his annoying tank builds that disrupted what little balance we could obtain. So why is it that you guys keep repeating the same mistakes and changing his kit in a way that allows for that playstyle to happen? Last time we were told you'd "receive feedback" the Fizz community PLEADED with you guys to listen and not do what you did, but the design guy in charge of the project came to the sub reddit, said "Hey, what do you guys think of this", then when we protested the changes he basically said "Well that's some good feedback but I REALLY think my way is better". Is your only job at this point to simply piss us off and insult us? Did someone on the design team have a bad match against fizz and decided that fizz should perpetually be in an outdated and frustrating state?
Rioter Comments
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: They cant rework his E tho, at least not without giving him a different low cd untargetability spell.
Which is what should happen. His mobility spells are outdated, linear, and just overall bad. It causes his kit to be simplistic in a bad way and heavily limits what he's capable of, as well it does not fit in at all with the rest of him. You have an ability that servers as 1/3 of a champions damage, his primary mobility spell, and his only survivability. His kit forces him to sacrifice 2 of those aspects just to use it for one, and in alot of cases that doesn't even make a difference. His Q is also short range, slow, a targeted dash no less, and it can be dodged with any mobility spell in the game. Why the hell would you create a champion concept that's about mobility and being able to play around your enemies, then just slap on an ability like his R which forces him to throw that all in the toilet just to be relevant. The limiting factor also comes into balance design as well because as long as he has a low CD untargetability spell Riot will refuse to enhance other aspects of his kit, so in the end it just holds him down.
Meddler (NA)
: Few Fizz thoughts in tomorrow's post. Gist of it is PBE soonish, but probably not this cycle. Looking at better feeling ways than the current mark to delay some of his damage (stronger DoT, or multicast W or something else again).
Please, I beg you. I've been begging you and your team since 2016 and especially since the assassin rework. Just give him a proper rework, not minor tweaks. For all I know you could have it planned and just not said anything about it so far, but one of his biggest issues is the design behind his mobility, not how his W works. Don't let me down, don't let the fizz community down, just please rework his E and Q. If I wake up one morning and find his kit on PBE with minor tweaks to his W and R, and the same passive that he's had for years, I think that'll finally be the point where I can no longer play the game. I've been with this game for so long purely because I've had hope that he'd be given proper changes, but after all these years if he doesn't even so much as get a new passive then there's just no point in me placing my hopes in you guys anymore.
: What's the point of voice chat if you're making it for premade teams only?
They're adding in an Open join system where random people can be placed into someones open party before queueing. So you can still talk with randoms.
Rioter Comments
noob3115 (EUNE)
: So you picked a broken champ and went from Silver to D1 mmr with a 70%+ win rate and now you're complaining he isn't broken anymore? Is this what I'm supposed to get from this?
Now who's the one with the low elo opinion? Fizz never even broke 50% winrate back then, and while he was one of the more frustrating champs to play against due to his bad design, he was never actually unbalanced. I never wanted him to be broken, I want a rework to properly update his kit for everyone as a whole. Meaning better times for those playing him as well as against him. He's always had a dated design, especially pre rework. I want this to be fixed. The reason why he still works is the same reason why he worked before. Back then despite his bad design, he had some good numbers. So in a kit that had the potential to completely flop to one of the lowest winrates of that time he survived because he could 1 shot people. Same thing here. His kit is even worse in terms of mechanics due to the weird counterplay nerfs they implemented, but it's playable due to the fact that he has some of the highest damage ratios in the game.
: You're not high elo, and don't even play ranked so why would anyone want to talk to you about the state of ANYTHING? Hashinshin has been playing this game since the beginning, isn't some random dude, has an audience, has been challenger, is currently in relatively high elo and talks about the state of champions/classes on a COMPETITIVE level. So... You're not in the same boat as him lol.
I disagree on the part where I'm nobody gold player, but I don't think having some sort of fanbase is credibility by itself. Back when I picked up fizz I climbed all the way to plat 2 with diamond 1+ MMR and a consistent 70%+ winrate. I've played more or less consistently only Fizz since the end of season 5. The reason I didn't achieve a higher elo is because what I did in terms of ranking up was god damn harsh on my mental and physical health. 3 weeks of non stop ranking to go from what was previously silver MMR to facing off against people who were at the damn near top of the skill ladder. Not exactly a healthy thing. So in the end a several month break was in order, during which time the rework hit and meta's slowly shifted away from him by the time I came back. The reason I no longer played ranked is for the same reason why I talk about Fizz on the boards in the first place, it's not a good champion. Statistically speaking you can get by but it's just a bad champion for both the player playing him and those playing against him. Playing in Diamond elo after the rewok is what killed the game for me in the first place and the reason why I no longer want to go passed plat. The amount of frustration that comes from 1 tricking Fizz in high elo is too damn much, and I want to change that. I actually want the champion that I've spent years playing to be enjoyable again. If I'm ignored because I've not bothered to get a rank that'll satisfy people, then so be it. Not much I can do. However until I'm told this by Riot themselves then I'll keep trying.
Rioter Comments
Helmight (NA)
: I'm not a fan of changing the duration on the active, since that would mess you up once you actually have a Zhonya's Hourglass and lead to a bunch of faulty muscle memory issues. A better option is to either delay the "turn-on" time so there's more opportunity to gank someone before their Stopwatch becomes available, or to reduce the Stopwatch's build path options (either by reducing its gold contribution to the next item or by making the rune Stopwatch into a Commencing Stopwatch, which doesn't build into anything).
Or ya know, remove it. Shouldn't have existed in the first place.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 2
Hey Meddler, what are your thoughts on Fizz and the shared problems he has with Akali? Since they both have alot of the same glaring gameplay issues would it be possible to take a look at fizz at some point?
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t18Wq0MD9OE&feature=youtu.be&t=47s i dont think they care about his problems hehe
Rioter Comments
Reav3 (NA)
: I would say the current pool after Akali/Irelia are {{champion:36}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:106}} These are the ones we generally discuss talk about these days when we go into early ideation on new VGUs. Some more then others, but all of these would make sense at this point, for various reasons. Obviously Kayle would be paired with a Morgana, should we end up working on her.
: > [{quoted}](name=HongChongDong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=egLc5gUB,comment-id=000000030000000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-23T04:06:52.419+0000) > > She's one of the most mechanically intensive? No, she isn't. People claim she is then show off her cute little animation cancels and combo's. Any player above the point of incompetent can go watch a guide video, practice everything special about riven, and learn it as easily as you would tricks for other champions. I've done it, I've watched other people do it, and I have several people I talk to that've done it. > > As I said. People constantly claim that she's one of the most mechanically intensive champions in the game, people flock to her and pick up her kit with some basic practice and guide help, then they go in and wreck house. Think they've accomplished something great and assume they're just better than everyone else, and thus a standard riven main is born. There are champions that are more nowadays, but that isn't to say in League of Legends she isn't. There's not a huge skill gap for champions besides positioning and animation cancels, Azir's kit is pretty simple looking at it, but it's what you can do with it. The reason Riven has been viable to semi-viable all these years is her kit, it's flexible, you can do a lot with what you're given. If she was as stupid easy as you claim, then there wouldn't be the stereotype for the feeding Riven main now would there? c: Stop with your hate goggles, take them off and look at it objectively, compared to other champions she requires higher mechanics than most others, look at Zoe, Garen, most adcs (Kalista is def the highest skill cap in that roster) She wouldn't have so many mains that fed in tons of games if people wouldn't just go around spewing hate saying she's such a braindead champ and rolls face, It's just plain not true. (Unless you're in bronze but then like every champ who has lots of mechanics become Bronze-slayers, they just don't try to play around your kit.)
I never said she was easy? I said she wasn't this top tier difficult champion that everyone makes her out to be. Is she more mechanically advanced? Yes, she has a decent amount to her kit. Doesn't mean she's difficult, just has more depth to her mechanics than most champions. Her learning curve is no more difficult than those ADC's that you're hating on, the difference is simply in what the learning curve entails. ADC's Require proper positioning at all times and kiting, they simply lose out hard to other champion classes. 1 mistake and you find your entire HP bar disappearing in a single second. Riven requires you to learn ability combo's. An "easy" champion is someone with a short learning curve and too much power gained for it, which is Zoe in my opinion. Though that doesn't mean I don't hate riven. I'm 100% in belief that Riven is a champion that takes the same amount of mastery as any other champion but gains too much in return for it.
NemeBro (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=HongChongDong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=egLc5gUB,comment-id=000000030000000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-23T04:06:52.419+0000) > > She's one of the most mechanically intensive? No, she isn't. Yes she is, you being incredibly salty over her requiring more skill than your mechanically basic fish doesn't change that fact. Let go of the hatred.
Is she more mechanically advanced than fizz? Yes she is actually. It's the reason why fizz wrecks low elo so much because in order to learn him at the basic level it doesn't take much. But to call her difficult and say she's one of the hardest champions in the game? No, she's no different from any average champion in LoL.
Chermorg (NA)
: What about instead of decreasing time, it slowly gets smaller as time goes on? That being said, I don't particularly see this as a big problem especially given things such as Aurelion sol star, anivia Q, and other similarly sized things that are *moving* yet must be dodged. This is a stationary zone that needs dodged - shouldn't be that hard in my opinion.
It's never about dodging it. It's the Zoning. It's a pretty god damn large area that you now can't walk through or you WILL be one shot. I've seen people actually get zoned for the duration of entire fights because they got trapped on the opposite side of a choke point by the trap. Unlike similar things like Fizz ult, it's a 8 second cooldown AT MAX and you can still walk through fizz ult before it pops.
Chermorg (NA)
: Remove Zoe E damage.
Remove the trap, turn the true damage into magic damage, lower the damage of both her E and Q by 25%, remove summoner spells from her W, and finally make it so Zoe can get CC'd and displaced during her ultimate so she can't blink back.
: I just have to ask. Have you actually played riven in a high elo?
I've played her minimally in any elo, alittle in diamond. I have a strict principle to not play champions that I have a clear hatred and disgust for.
: > [{quoted}](name=HongChongDong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=egLc5gUB,comment-id=0000000300000000,timestamp=2018-01-22T06:41:00.726+0000) > > Ok, good points. Quick question though, why does any of that matter? She's a melee assassin bruiser duelist. She has no right to beable to "engage" in the first place, so regardless of spellbook or no spellbook she's fine. > > Then the biggest issue, ask yourself WHY she has so many one tricks in the first place. Let me give you a hint: She's a dumb champion. It's not because she's fun, because Morde is actually pretty fun but you don't see 50 thousand one tricks running around, especially not in masters and challenger. > > It's because the entire champion is built up around a toxic community behind her and the kit itself. The Riven community claims she's a champion that can only be mastered through extreme skill, players left and right play her because she looks cool as hell and watch her wreck house, they practice and learn her mechanics about as easily as they would on any other champion, then they suddenly start wrecking house as well. They get a massive Ego from thinking they've just outskilled everyone else, get their wins and LP, and then just become a dime a dozen riven player that you see flooding every single part of the ELO ladder. Well her being able to engage is what's keeping her pretty close to 50%, I've seen her as my favorite champ since her release wayy back in 2011, I know the kind of toxic community she's based around, but for the most part those are just people who pick her up because people claim she's so easy and op, then they get salty as fuck because they can't play her right and lose, then flame everyone else instead of practicing, those are the same people who call for buffs when she really doesn't need it. Riven may be annoying as all hell to play against with her mini-stuns, but she IS one of the more mechanically intensive champions, always there with Azir and other champs as one of the hardest champs to master. I think that also is part of the reason she has so many one tricks, she's been out for almost 7 years, has a reputation as one of the most mechanically intensive champs, so many people claim she's op and easy at the same time, causing for a lot of people to swarm to her for different reasons and it's pretty much a 50/50 if the Riven main you're against is a toxic person who's shit and shows no improvement, or a nice person who's pretty good and improving, then you got the rare occasions that they're toxic and good, aswell as improving. Toplane has always been a fiesta, of course the community behind the champions are going to be aswell, that's just my thoughts on the champion though. I don't play Riv very much.
She's one of the most mechanically intensive? No, she isn't. People claim she is then show off her cute little animation cancels and combo's. Any player above the point of incompetent can go watch a guide video, practice everything special about riven, and learn it as easily as you would tricks for other champions. I've done it, I've watched other people do it, and I have several people I talk to that've done it. As I said. People constantly claim that she's one of the most mechanically intensive champions in the game, people flock to her and pick up her kit with some basic practice and guide help, then they go in and wreck house. Think they've accomplished something great and assume they're just better than everyone else, and thus a standard riven main is born.
: > [{quoted}](name=HongChongDong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=egLc5gUB,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2018-01-22T02:07:36.512+0000) > > Riven has a 50% Winrate and has more One tricks in masters and challengers than ANY other champion in the game. If you can make it passed diamond without ever opening up to a diverse champion pool, then your champion is stupid plain and simple. I think you're missing the point, Riven is at a 50% winrate from people starting to pick up spellbook, toplane is a fiesta and that's why she's considered bad, because she isnt a frontline tank. Spellbook allows her to do her flash engage more often so she's performing better than the 48% winrate she had when new runes launched. She also is close to 50% because of how many one tricks she has, if you look at Lolalytics the difference between the avg player and good player winrate is pretty big, it's how she's staying closer to the avg w/r. Alot of champions are bad right now, most juggernauts, most Skirmishers, it's a huge fiesta toplane and it always has been. All I'm trying to say is just look at it objectively, I hope Riv doesn't get buffed, that'll just make more problems. We need less damage in the game, not more. Edit: Also we'll see what state she's in when they change spellbook like they said they would in the /dev Diary, she's pretty fine rn.
Ok, good points. Quick question though, why does any of that matter? She's a melee assassin bruiser duelist. She has no right to beable to "engage" in the first place, so regardless of spellbook or no spellbook she's fine. Then the biggest issue, ask yourself WHY she has so many one tricks in the first place. Let me give you a hint: She's a dumb champion. It's not because she's fun, because Morde is actually pretty fun but you don't see 50 thousand one tricks running around, especially not in masters and challenger. It's because the entire champion is built up around a toxic community behind her and the kit itself. The Riven community claims she's a champion that can only be mastered through extreme skill, players left and right play her because she looks cool as hell and watch her wreck house, they practice and learn her mechanics about as easily as they would on any other champion, then they suddenly start wrecking house as well. They get a massive Ego from thinking they've just outskilled everyone else, get their wins and LP, and then just become a dime a dozen riven player that you see flooding every single part of the ELO ladder.
Rioter Comments
: Riven is really bad right now. Know many OTPs who enjoy the game when their waifu is in a bad spot?
Riven has a 50% Winrate and has more One tricks in masters and challengers than ANY other champion in the game. If you can make it passed diamond without ever opening up to a diverse champion pool, then your champion is stupid plain and simple.
bbQsauçe (EUW)
: ***
This is what not reading and giving uninformed statements does, so let me enlighten you. Once again, nothing to do with Fizz. This is a post talking about the issues with Top lane and how even a good number of legitimate high elo players agree on the matter and a handful even discussed it on a video with Hashinshin. Secondly, I don't make posts complaining that Fizz is broken. I'm a fizz one trick that has played the champion since the preseason of season 7. My posts regarding fizz are always talking about the issues fizz was given thanks to the rework and possible solutions to fix it. In the future do not comment useless crap like "didn't read" when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
: Hashitshit... at least there are 6 other people you mentioned i can actually trust... maybe
Hashinshin is a meme but I can assure you he's not completely talking out of his ass. Despite his appearances and how much he gets laughed at the man does infact hold regular challenger. Something that over 90% of leagues community will probably work at until the game dies and never achieve.
saltran (EUW)
: 4 top laner mains: Dekar is a Riven player if I'm not wrong/ Irelia Carries U is obviously a Irelia otp/ Wicked is also a Irelia-Jax player/and Hashinshin almost only play bruisers. Hey, to be more specific you could say that they are only bruisers toplaners the guys that Hashin called.
So what? Are they suddenly not worth listening to? You don't get to their Elo's, especially not challenger without a broad knowledge. Just because they main bruisers does not mean that they don't know how other top lane classes functions in the meta. Hashinshin alone mains bruisers but does often play many different top laners. Even without a broad champion pool Top laners are still top laners regardless. They play against any and all types of other tops, so of course they're going to know a decent amount about how other champions work. Same reason you see people like Imaqtpie pick up other roles and play it in challenger elo as if it didn't matter. When you have the experience and knowledge range then you're going to already have the broad knowledge required to play something, after that comes champion mechanics which in most cases is only worth about 1/3 of what it takes to be successful with them.
TehNACHO (NA)
: >I mean that can be said about the entire community and Riot themselves Well, yeah. I basically spent a decent part of last week making fun of the Gameplay Board for being a meme/echo chamber. My beef with people who don't know how to fix a given problem is that oftentimes it's a lack of understanding why that problem exists in the first place. And then trying to push change while not even knowing where to go is just silly at best and hazardous at worse. Or worse, there's already an elegant solution to the problem, but the complainer in question actively chooses not to take that route. Like, let's go back to the melee vs ranged example. Teemo is a fucking bitch to play against if you main, say, Garen. You _could_ demand Riot dumpsters Teemo so Garen has a fighting chance, or you could switch over to something like Pantheon and slaughter him instead. And I'm not making up this example mind you. [There was a thread a few weeks back](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/gWn4eriJ-my-ideal-champion-experience-isnt-viable-in-league-anymore) of some guy complaining that his playstyle is dead, and he identifies Shyvana as a champion taking over the game. His playstyle is based on Bulky damage dealers, and Shyvana is exactly that. Instead of learning to pick up Shyvana and expand his champion pool and playstyle, he instead chose to complain about it. This is what I see on a regular basis and makes me all the more skeptical when someone tells me "there's a problem with the game right now".
I can blame hashinshin for that, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. Alot of his issues comes from his champion pool and playstyle. Hashinshin plays scaling carries, he specializes in dumpstering people who're below him in skill and then using things like Jax to scale out of control. issue is that he doesn't know how to not play an aggressive playstyle. He'll always play the exact same way even into champions who will eat him up and spit him out. He'll do it over and over and over again and just find himself dying. He gets "camped" because he doesn't know how to not over extend and stop trying to pressure lanes, and partly because it makes for a good meme to camp hashinshin. I'm stilling willing to bet any amount of money though that he's not completely talking from personal bias. Also I'd like to say that I don't really agree with that point of changing champions. Half way due to the fact that I'm personally in that situation, and half way due to the fact that I believe people should beable to play their champion and find success if they have the skills for it. I believe that countering a champion to the point where the individuals skill is no longer a factor and it simply boiling down to getting outplayed at champ select is bad design. I've played Fizz for a long time at this point, low elo, high elo, ect, and I constantly talk about fizz and his problems. One of the major issues the champion has is the concept of counters. There are just an insane amount of possible counters in both champions and items alike, and the issue with Fizz is that when something counters him it full out negates him. Kit is too poorly designed to ever allow anyone to overcome anything, it's like playing a flow chart of yes and no to the question: "Does this counter me?" Point is that I feel everyone in entitled to beable to play their champion and still do what they need to do. I'm not saying counters shouldn't massively affect the game, I just don't think champions should be to the point where if they're countered then there's no options left regardless of how skilled the player is at playing them.
TehNACHO (NA)
: Just putting it out there, the discussions may be just a tad loaded. Small handpicked group on an already negative conversation starter doesn't lead to the most unbiased discussion, even if everything they say is supported with evidence. With that said however, I'm curious exactly what sort of solutions they came up with. It's one thing to point out a problem, it's another to try to fix it. For example, a lot of people who play slow bulky melees complain about ranged champions coming top. The vast majority of the time, these same people don't have exactly...elegant solutions to the issue.
I mean that can be said about the entire community and Riot themselves. No ones going to be entirely neutral, but I'd like to think that I can trust the high elo players with a good history and the skills that prove it. I even think Dyrus also shares the same views. Though the Lyroc guy once again is a mystery and may very well be abit of a loaded pick. As far as I remember he didn't do much besides say "I agree" repeatedly then just pops off when Singed or Vlad is brought up. But I will agree about the last bit. Sometimes you may beable to identify a problem and not know how to fix it, not their fault. It's up to the balance team to take the feedback on what the problem is and create a solution when the community can't.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Provide a basis on what gets us an S or higher on a champion
They don't want to do that because then it just gets exploited and becomes pointless. All you can and should know is that it's based on the average performance of other players playing the champion.
Rioter Comments
: I personally have used the statement that the boards are a minority of our population, so think I may have some response that's valid to this post. When we/I say things like that, it's almost always in response to players making hyperbolic statements like "literally every player hates these changes" or "90% of all players don't like this preseason, just look at the boards, and everyone I've talked to has said the same thing". We don't always react to what the boards are talking/voicing frustrations about, but that doesn't mean we're not listening. Take game pacing for example, our first reaction to the boards is not to try and correct the entire game because there's a number of threads where players are talking about the game feeling like it progresses too quickly. Instead, we'll take that and look **globally** both through objective data that we collect such as game length, game pacing, time to turret kills, bloodiness etc. We also run subjective surveys in the client to collect feedback from players **globally** to understand at a higher level what's going on with the game. In regards to your final statement about "why can't the people who love the game right now come here and tell us about it?", the answer comes down to human nature. If you're enjoying something, there's very little reason to go out of your way to talk about how much you're enjoying it, you just keep doing it. When things go a direction that you're NOT happy with, that's when you tend to speak out about how you're not happy. To use a REALLY abstract example. If you go to a restaurant and order a steak and mashed potatoes and it gets to your table and it's a solid 8/10, you're probably not going to sing the praises of the chef to your waiter, but you're also not going to complain about your food. If it comes out and it's a 1/10, the steak is burned to a crisp, the mashed potatoes taste like glue, you're almost certainly going to pull the waiter over to complain about how shitty it is. tl;dr - the boards can be considered something of a "flag" that indicates something is wrong, but rather than pivot immediately, we'll take the time to make sure something is **actually** a problem before acting. Sorry this is kind of on the short side and glosses over a pretty large topic, I was just heading out of the office but wanted to chime in quickly. Hopefully what I said makes sense though, if not I can try to clarify some of it later.
This is why I made a post that noted both of those points and suggested a client side feedback system for better communication with the community as a whole. The surveys that you guys release are always far too broad and never really allow players to send feedback on the things they wish to discuss, on the flip side the "data" you guys collect from gameplay just doesn't tell the entire story either. General consensus that you'll find from anyone is that they hate Zoe with a passion. People ban her, become frustrated and lash out when they have to play against her, and you can find the general opinion easily through community based content like videos and streams. But her win rate is fine so there's no major reason as to why you'd do anything. There are a number of different creative options that you could implement for a quick feedback system that's build into the client so everyone has access to it. My personal suggestion was a post game lobby rating system for champions that allowed you to rate how much you disliked a champion using a 1-5 measurement system. With ease of access, players could vent any frustration they have with minimal effort and that could come back as conclusive "People do no like this" data. People who have no issues with it don't even have to use it at all which still comes back as data suggesting there are no major issues.
: Now that's just unrealistic.
When Shadbase content gets posted onto LoL boards. I know the shit you've seen if you're browsing that site, and me and you both are going someplace _real_ special for it.
: is dyrus having fun with league anymore?
Because it's something alittle like this: Old time league streamers are mostly out of it when it comes to the game. They've had their golden years and don't really care for the game as much anymore due to whatever reasons they might have. They're entertainers on twitch, it's a Job not a hobby. They became famous for one reason or another through LoL content, so naturally they have to maintain their LoL content for the fanbase that they've built up around it. But if it's fun and popular enough then naturally they won't hesitate to take the opportunity for other things besides league. Most of the league streamers including professionals have been playing for countless years, alot of them commonly have an issue or 2 with the game, it's not surprising that they'd lose interest.
koshkyra (NA)
: What is your main problem with the game right now? (Poll)
My main champion, my one trick, the main reason I've enjoyed the game over the years was given a bad and downright thoughtless rework that had a number of issues that should've never been placed onto him. Now he's far too much of a chore to play and enjoy at any decent level. Despite my attempts at trying to convince the balance team of his issues and trying to advocate his need for a rework, I think I'm thoroughly ignored and can only sit in silence thinking back on the glory days when I still smiled and had such a happy time playing the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=HongChongDong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hUQRrmiX,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-15T09:18:36.751+0000) > > > **4.** > > Another quote coming in. Once again saying they're bad at their job IS constructive feedback, to an extent. Maybe he meant this in the way of "Throwing hate at someone with no reasoning, information, or detailed opinions accomplishes nothing." If this is the case, and the case for all of the comments, then I apologize for misinterpreting you, and yes I agree with you. It just creates circle jerking, clickbait, upvote farms, and is rude towards the person who is being subjected to the hate. > > But if you just mean calling someone bad at their job in general is not constructive, then you're pretty wrong. This is the design and balance teams we're talking about. Regardless of if I'm saying CertainlyT is bad at his job or Zoe is a horrible champion, it still means that I think he screwed up his job as a designer. > > For the record, I think he's made some horribly balanced shit that ruins the fun of others, but I'll say that he creates the some of the most unique and potentially fun champions to play. Only person I have a major problem with is the person who ruined LoL for me by touching my main........ moving back onto topic. > Let's talk constructive criticism. Saying someone is bad at their job is criticism. It's not constructive. It doesn't say anything, it's just an opinion thrown into the void. Here's how to make it constructive criticism: 1. Identify problem 2. Explain why it is a problem 3. Give possible ways to fix the problem 4. Explore changes that the fix would cause and why they are better than the current issues 5. Don't rant - you can use 'I feel' statements, but don't rant For example: I feel like/think X is bad because of Y (and this is my personal experience in the matter). I think Z is a possible solution because of REASONS. Can also include: I also understand that implementing Z will require A. This will overall be helpful because of B. For criticism to be constructive it needs to be more than just criticism. Just saying I don't like X or I think Z should happen without elaborating on that is not helpful. It doesn't explain where you're coming from or why anyone should listen to you. You can be absolutely right about X, but if you can't convey why you're right it doesn't matter. And I'm probably shouting into the void, but I feel better putting this out there.
I never disagreed with that particular opinion. As I said in the post itself and a few different replies, I think thoughtless posts with no details, logic, or reasoning are _mostly_ pointless. I believe that they may hold some value in understanding that at the very least people are pissed off about something, but otherwise can typically be ignored. What I talked about in the post is based on how I decided to interpret the quote which was: " It's fine to say something a designer or balance worker did is bad, but it's not ok to start criticizing them as a person and saying that they aren't performing their job properly.". To which I said that it's complete bullshit and if someone is doing a shitty job then they deserve to be open to criticism. If my interpretation was wrong then I take blame for that of course.
kaironen (NA)
: Criticizing the game and explaining what you think is wrong is much better than criticizing the employee Imo. Of course, if someone creates a champion and you don't like to play against it or with it, you should say something about it. However, in a lot of cases it turns into a little bit of personal attacks like "fire this employee". It is much easier to turn into those attacks than to complain about an issue like adc build too cheap and stuff. You have a point in saying talking about an employee and the game can be similar, but talking about what you think is wrong about either one is much better than turning into flame.
That's just how things go though. As I said in the post, the LoL community is a bunch of toxic asshats. There's always going to be some sort of toxicity and aggression in posts regarding someones opinion, especially when the post is aimed at Riot. Do I think that's ok? No, not really. But then again that's also why anything overly toxic is ignored and then locked which is a good thing.
: Okay just to clarify: 1. I do NOT think that you said, "demanding job termination was right." In fact I believe that on numerous occasions I saw you say the opposite, that such demands are wrong. - and I agree with what I perceived you said about this, "making such demands is wrong." 2. I DO think that you said, "calling people shit at their job is a valid complaint." - Which is something that I disagree with. If I have incorrectly read your opinions then feel free to correct me, otherwise we can proceed discussing finally.
Ok now we're on the same page. Yes, you understood what I was saying correctly then. Depends on the type of "You're shit at your job" opinion. Criticizing someone on their skill at their job is perfectly reasonable in my opinion. Especially in this situation when you criticize a balance decision or a champion design you're still saying that the person responsible failed their job. Just really depends on how you go about it which is the key. If I made a rage post and just started saying "CertainlyT you're a dumpster fire and you suck at your job plz quit." Then yeah, pretty stupid. But if you providing legitimate opinions, information, logic, ect. then there should be no reason why you can't call someone out as underperforming, a failure, a fuckup, however you choose to word it.
: I wasn't laughing. I gave a solid reason. That person is bad at their job and detrimental to the game and company. Well, I think certain people have fucked up enough to be booted.
Then it comes down to a matter of opinion, which I don't really think I can change for you. I personally don't agree that anything done so far warrants a cold hard termination, but there's nothing saying I'm objectively right.
WinBoat (NA)
: Lots of threads and comments are just to gather thumbs up which these people think mean something in life.
I wouldn't say that about everyone. There are still quite a few threads that get created that are made out of a legitimate concern/issue with the game, the person creating it just might not beable to articulate it well and it comes off as a trashy hate post. I think the fact that someone is making a post is still valuable, it means that they have a problem with something. The only question is what is their problem and what is causing it.
Anatera (NA)
: I'm aware of that. It's called mob mentality. There were people who DID think that deep and blamed GC. Then the other people came in and read the title without the rest of the context and turned it into a meme. Just because they aren't aware of where it started doesn't mean we should ignore where it actually started.
Oh no I never meant we shouldn't blame him. My point regarding ghostcrawler is if you're going to hate him then atleast do it for the right reasons. I blame him for not properly managing the teams and allowing them to implement things into the game that was a clear mistake from the get go.
: Oh no, that was not my intention or question at all. I meant to ask why you seem to be arguing against both 'sides' of the argument. You argue against people defending Rioters because you believe that demanding firing IS feedback, but you also seem to be saying that demanding firing is wrong. So I'm just trying to figure out where on the spectrum of stances in this matter you stand.
I never said demanding job termination was right. I said that saying that they were shit at their job or fucked up was perfectly fine and within the rights of the player, but never terminating their job. If I did somehow say something that looks like I agree with Job termination then please point it out to me so I can fix the issue.
: I'm not ending their career. They made the shitty decisions and it would be their fault for ending their own career. All I'm doing is forcing people to take responsibility and pointing out bullshit. They've been on the job for 4 years so it's not I'm picking on the new kid either. They are adults and should hold themselves accountable. They don't, they make poor changes, and never improve. If someone is terrible at their job, why shouldn't they be replaced with someone who can do better?
Taking someones Job/Career is no laughing matter. If it's going to be done then the reasoning needs to be solid for it, and I don't think a disagreement like the one I talked about is reason enough. Might be a reason to seek to actually work about reforming this designer, probably the balance and design teams as a whole, but not ending it for someone. The same thing I replied to someone else with. I'm not disagreeing with you that they did infact fuck up. I quite strongly believe a few different people have in fact fucked up. But a "Designer" is by default a different type of job than a normal job. With a normal job you have a set goal and you're paid to accomplish it. I can get paid to move boxes in a storage warehouse. If I succeed then I'm doing it right, if I fail to move the boxes then I fucked up and might be liable for a termination. A Designer by nature is subjective in success and failure. This is determined by how much their consumers hate or love what they designed. I think firing the designers and balance workers is in the wrong because they've not yet done things that can be considered as them as COMPLETELY failing their job, yet. Do I think they've fucked up? Yes, yes I do. But not getting booted level of fucked up. I would much rather prefer changing/reforming them and getting us stronger leadership, a MUCH stronger set of guidelines and design philosophies, and someone who truly knows the league community that can say no when shit that we don't want gets pushed to go to live.
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HongChongDong

Level 69 (NA)
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